From nobody Wed Sep 1 09:54:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB443A0D71 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 09:54:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vobkkuekPU7b for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 09:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE9723A0D70 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 09:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 181GsH7V060894 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:54:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1630515258; bh=vhDAU0UJvvOv6wvIFKhBz6llTPiM5+Rw9JUhax3fJuw=; h=Subject:References:To:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=C3rkgONBlF/7U9qpC5wVSCpRElhlkSZzbDPJET1xjugBV81NXYGnuWioFjFNug3nB Vk7YTEl8k5szcSUBvcabx45MpkCeTQxMrVrxu9By7rW+1XU/2H6PZpJxxxuP3nYDe3 3fM4AHGj7JteBGZCMQc5bjvUyTP69Bn4P/jRdYDo= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain References: To: tools-discuss Cc: gmcpherran@outlook.com From: Robert Sparks X-Forwarded-Message-Id: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:54:12 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------77245F9048C117AF64945E3C" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 16:54:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------77245F9048C117AF64945E3C Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1EFA9780A1DF806027E9F751" --------------1EFA9780A1DF806027E9F751 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Moving this to tools-discuss. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 From: Greg M To: datatracker-project@ietf.org Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in the "About" page. Example of public "bis" confusion: http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow Thank You for the work that you do. Greg McPherran Siteware.org --------------1EFA9780A1DF806027E9F751 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Moving this to tools-discuss.



-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis"
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000
From: Greg M <GMcPherran@outlook.com>
To: datatracker-project@ietf.org <datatracker-project@ietf.org>


Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in the "About" page.

Example of public "bis" confusion:

Thank You for the work that you do.

Greg McPherran
Siteware.org

--------------1EFA9780A1DF806027E9F751-- --------------77245F9048C117AF64945E3C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="Attached Message Part" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Attached Message Part" _______________________________________________ Django-project mailing list Django-project@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/django-project --------------77245F9048C117AF64945E3C-- From nobody Wed Sep 1 11:15:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98F53A129F for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:15:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3jBAMmIniP2f for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E79B3A129D for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122331.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 181HSJqG008790 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 19:15:13 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=lp6StOQOYhBlWQsY30hHEzQMsF9cwle8yBn8jog2oTY=; b=fkF701VXs3IWn5ehe3umMtgVrJIuPdZY1srqu3IeqeiwYFZpQLlwWITmW9T5CN+cYEXV LmIDpe0hme/sVrbq4WFBT1snZQI5in9NZHU3645ZfPiuJnH42cfwFj11PASK0Y13BhPR Ab9/I2bSCYqHlvoLpjInecjT+3Lt5ljeBsgZa4prgcWp1m6bXtVkau7ftXVBHQ6JwcX5 KLY5f7OPmsGpPmH9zTQlyOswfHUjnW0Yt52C1n4FQnSzMCqJxN9VvFRJD+sNfj02mC+7 RR81vxjIxIwAe92tViPXBeCPANu44Wp4YfySokUGwvxQ6JB1f3SEJcXrqjSfCVW0wrnX kA== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3atdxv979t-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 19:15:12 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 181I498R031319 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:15:12 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.53]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3ate1vr1f9-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 11:15:12 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 14:15:11 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 14:15:11 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Tools Discussion Thread-Topic: What does "n.d." mean? Thread-Index: AQHXn11N8GqffB3DNUyscOPUBMK2Ew== Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:15:10 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.52.21080801 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_A55B038114314F45A470595E7AFDCDD0akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-01_05:2021-09-01, 2021-09-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=501 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2108310000 definitions=main-2109010104 X-Proofpoint-GUID: TI7cA5S-yGFoYv1_Dw91VYvbt0fWE1S7 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: TI7cA5S-yGFoYv1_Dw91VYvbt0fWE1S7 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-01_05,2021-09-01_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 clxscore=1015 mlxlogscore=441 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2108310000 definitions=main-2109010105 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.60) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint5 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] What does "n.d." mean? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 18:15:21 -0000 --_000_A55B038114314F45A470595E7AFDCDD0akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhlIFRYVCBhbmQgSFRNTCB2ZXJzaW9ucyBoYXZlIHRoaXM6DQpbSUFOQV0gICAgICJJQU5BIiwg bi5kLiwgPGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL3N0YW5kYXJkcy9pYW5hPi4NCg0KVGhlIE1EIGZp bGUgaGFzIHRoaXM6DQogIElBTkE6DQogICAgdGFyZ2V0OiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9z dGFuZGFyZHMvaWFuYQ0KICAgIHRpdGxlOiBJQU5BDQoNCldoYXQgYW0gSSBkb2luZyB3cm9uZz8g IEFuZCBpcyB0aGlzIHdyaXR0ZW4gZG93biBzb21lcGxhY2UgdGhhdCBJIHNob3VsZCBoYXZlIHJl YWQ/ICBUbnguDQoNCg== --_000_A55B038114314F45A470595E7AFDCDD0akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <5B6CD9CE3CB26143A925582B5D87FDC4@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FtYnJpYSBNYXRoIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDQgNSAzIDUgNCA2 IDMgMiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToy IDE1IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAzIDIgNDt9DQovKiBTdHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3Jt YWwsIGxpLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgZGl2Lk1zb05vcm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGluOw0KCWZvbnQtc2l6 ZToxMi4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5FbWFp bFN0eWxlMTcNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6cGVyc29uYWwtY29tcG9zZTsNCglmb250LWZhbWls eToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsNCgljb2xvcjp3aW5kb3d0ZXh0O30NCi5Nc29DaHBEZWZh dWx0DQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOmV4cG9ydC1vbmx5Ow0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQ7fQ0K QHBhZ2UgV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3NpemU6OC41aW4gMTEuMGluOw0KCW1hcmdpbjoxLjBpbiAx LjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbjt9DQpkaXYuV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3BhZ2U6V29yZFNlY3Rpb24x O30NCi0tPjwvc3R5bGU+DQo8L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9keSBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyIgbGluaz0iIzA1NjND MSIgdmxpbms9IiM5NTRGNzIiIHN0eWxlPSJ3b3JkLXdyYXA6YnJlYWstd29yZCI+DQo8ZGl2IGNs YXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZv bnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPlRoZSBUWFQgYW5kIEhUTUwgdmVyc2lvbnMgaGF2ZSB0aGlzOjxvOnA+ PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiIHN0eWxlPSJ0ZXh0LWluZGVu dDouNWluIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBwdCI+W0lBTkFdJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7 Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7ICZxdW90O0lBTkEmcXVvdDssIG4uZC4sICZsdDtodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9zdGFuZGFyZHMvaWFuYSZndDsuPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9 Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9v OnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNp emU6MTEuMHB0Ij5UaGUgTUQgZmlsZSBoYXMgdGhpczo8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8 cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBwdCI+Jm5ic3A7 IElBTkE6PG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4g c3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPiZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyB0YXJnZXQ6IGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL3N0YW5kYXJkcy9pYW5hPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAg Y2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPiZuYnNwOyZu YnNwOyZuYnNwOyB0aXRsZTogSUFOQTxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJN c29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ij48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpw Pjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXpl OjExLjBwdCI+V2hhdCBhbSBJIGRvaW5nIHdyb25nPyZuYnNwOyBBbmQgaXMgdGhpcyB3cml0dGVu IGRvd24gc29tZXBsYWNlIHRoYXQgSSBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZSByZWFkPyZuYnNwOyBUbnguPG86cD48 L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQt c2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5 Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_A55B038114314F45A470595E7AFDCDD0akamaicom_-- From nobody Wed Sep 1 11:19:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BFF3A12CF for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:19:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q2Cpgn3rkn2O for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07DA83A1304 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:5c97:7e70:6bb5:8d98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 50715600373; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 21:19:07 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1630520347; bh=6nm/3/r/lDvnB5EJgWYFFodBS6SFKRUN4mGmitG/WlA=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=rtjZhtwIYE8N2WL4bNvd0LYsBIIcfY5d4VfAHSr3r0zXt1Rkhc9f3Nlw6BDurTcK7 aRDIN3fpxz1ztgiH9dQJopf/uCs8YaCm/cF0Fhkzv4yRQvG8v/e7GW5pJYwzWUVB/o O3Sz/8fMe/JR19luDUWMtugFysb3plHnj4KCgVuM= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CCC12EA3-1A63-44E9-AA31-6F4F0D2948AF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 21:19:04 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Tools Discussion To: "Salz, Rich" References: X-MailScanner-ID: 50715600373.ADC6C X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What does "n.d." mean? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 18:19:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CCC12EA3-1A63-44E9-AA31-6F4F0D2948AF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I think I hit this in the past and decided it must mean "no date". IIRC = it was added for entries without a publication date. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_CCC12EA3-1A63-44E9-AA31-6F4F0D2948AF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmEvxBgACgkQVLXDCb9w wVf9zRAAuIMj2LGlZu7w3eoOJma6UolVdYvY+2+fcbJv8DWoR7Cyjr8l85+JbVIk RFYNBHUUScLwNYMA6vO/i2TQts+ylzrLNt20PAdNXX5f86cCrFnrP1LoZk4PRpDw MzdCAjnmGcVZWyuDU+sEknvx29OPmYpPg/QWXoM5uq+BVAqrC3+DSIr+p0EZL2XD UKrZTdDseByZJmNztzyELI836KS+3Q+5SlTF0utoaDiTrBJ6PGtSc3nv6UPmaSB2 +QF3gbJnoYkK9LmyZo5UkfS6IAMpq9pZE0CKdsNHqEHJeVYPR4721d6weq3GW1PZ smvoOcWbRyPKcjfvMcGHlh+zhy5ZIHeMwYml5/NfXTWp8JLNY/QnfjhgXkMTTqGd UVsfz3K7DhYFR5Mw2yUp3t2wEUyrVP/ryLJ24aikDTmJ1kQ/vRBb7nTUZUWH95HB tBDdFNzp704Zz/X7p309eDOgxE7aOf5YF2pRq5rTx9ySH1sYiNnldfDF8DGdJgsS g3x3tF9QWWGRLF+JzWbAm2hXAD7HiiBhv31Z6OL15/fCuHVWbssa/KLsMdOFsE3S w1H6AMhV3nLR4NI95KyEhji3s2om0RUv7JDurZBZ3o3fhko5ncJ967IgmIjm7I4o PrNsin88BPaicT7M+kN+NmKND4I+GkxceTu+v5rBD2TrTZ2vrnI= =DlsK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_CCC12EA3-1A63-44E9-AA31-6F4F0D2948AF-- From nobody Wed Sep 1 12:09:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C77F3A1605 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:08:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=bluepopcorn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DMm0E0Qtinh5 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v2.bluepopcorn.net (v2.bluepopcorn.net [IPv6:2607:f2f8:a994::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 519C63A15F7 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:08:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bluepopcorn.net; s=supersize; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Subject:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Qzzq6EUZ+zrVoOzHizBBU/nMue86Z1ouN5KiHY4VsH8=; b=EDh5/Y/cgNq0PlFV+qQeQD9mDn bXVsk+qCpuyYVsJIXBx2RSjZ1oK8kvJfrrt3KnJNYUB9v/lS/of/jZgf1d7PLtXQC2liWyN2NTxXB j/q4+oy4LxXy9wP7YOjYbCyUv/8UqQEtWFHCdljONSxc76DPWa77KcRVUBjq7IWzu0mo=; Received: from [64.71.6.2] (helo=[10.100.11.204]) by v2.bluepopcorn.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mLVbQ-00076M-9D for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 12:08:52 -0700 From: Jim Fenton To: Tools Discussion Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 12:08:50 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5820) Message-ID: <65686008-0EB5-4765-B20F-C3E038C5EF28@bluepopcorn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Session Request notification email X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 19:09:00 -0000 After scheduling a WG session just now, I noticed that the =E2=80=9CConfl= icts to Avoid=E2=80=9D section was blank even though I had listed several= conflicts (both chair and technology conflicts). Did this get lost from = the notification message somehow? If so, does that notification come from= the datatracker or from AMS? If the former, I can open a ticket on that,= but I=E2=80=99m not sure where the dividing line is. -Jim From nobody Wed Sep 1 13:14:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98973A1893 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:14:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eTsOZJHO_tQr for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B66323A188D for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.1.2/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 181K41vW026402 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 21:13:55 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=1MxXIz1LTFVqx7+Wq3QfZGkU4rV3IQoB9Laqq2A5ui4=; b=Vs98uJmGUda9ehDNlGWyXcpnrB5MkVNYn4S2PmHTSHZ/go8AS6dgb9Tf+WYo+Zxd0WZ/ 9cK7654ZzZrsL389SozBAehjhqErSGO5P480Tqn0GgDzNSgNQyPtD9V+ck9JfU58YZFl dv1dlDu8Ho8Z6Jn1OQWY4CXctgm5F5nW04iggQWMJ19wmulAs9kgI0Kb/uyydDeEpG+0 vO4v9+byjPVptsi07IlIv3Wycdty/qB9c0fpFVkFy5a12aC8LSaiCMqu2EDrkCh6iQRY WQyg54RRRG28sRH5WYsd/5lEaiujRaZah8gSAoZhBJ52QcNyfeyEKgFRrnV8AnPNWW+8 JQ== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint2 (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [184.51.33.19] (may be forged)) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 3atdy7cexm-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 21:13:54 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 181K5cSJ008508 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:13:53 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3ate2j86d0-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 16:13:53 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:13:52 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:13:52 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Tools Discussion Thread-Topic: where to make suggestions for rfc-editor.org pages? Thread-Index: AQHXn23iWL/CuB5WEkyzt5+5c2Y2Xw== Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 20:13:52 +0000 Message-ID: <11B247A6-673F-4EF8-9C2C-F1ECD12C35B9@akamai.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.52.21080801 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_11B247A6673F4EF89C2CF1ECD12C35B9akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-01_05:2021-09-01, 2021-09-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=726 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2108310000 definitions=main-2109010116 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: LK4bwzgQCyDPVEsIpihazPfZitM7WxYf X-Proofpoint-GUID: LK4bwzgQCyDPVEsIpihazPfZitM7WxYf X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-01_05,2021-09-01_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=629 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2108310000 definitions=main-2109010118 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.19) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint2 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] where to make suggestions for rfc-editor.org pages? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 20:14:02 -0000 --_000_11B247A6673F4EF89C2CF1ECD12C35B9akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 WW91IGtub3cgd2hhdCB3b3VsZCBiZSB2ZXJ5IGNvb2w/ICBXaGVuIHlvdSBzZWUgdGhlIOKAnE9i c29sZXRlc+KAnSDigJxVcGRhdGVkIGJ54oCdIHRhZ3Mgb24gYW4gcmZjLWVkaXRvci5vcmcgaW5m byBwYWdlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBncmVhdCBpZiBhIHRvb2x0aXAgd291bGQgYXBwZWFyIHdpdGgg dGhlIFJGQyB0aXRsZSBpZiB5b3UgaG92ZXJlZCBvdmVyIG9uZSBvZiB0aG9zZSByZWZlcmVuY2Vz Lg0KDQpXaGVyZS93aG8gc2hvdWxkIEkgc3VnZ2VzdCB0aGlzIGNvb2xuZXNzIHRvPw0K --_000_11B247A6673F4EF89C2CF1ECD12C35B9akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <19ACC672C66B4C4F8702687CB09CF055@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FtYnJpYSBNYXRoIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDQgNSAzIDUgNCA2 IDMgMiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToy IDE1IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAzIDIgNDt9DQovKiBTdHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3Jt YWwsIGxpLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgZGl2Lk1zb05vcm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGluOw0KCWZvbnQtc2l6 ZToxMi4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5FbWFp bFN0eWxlMTcNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6cGVyc29uYWwtY29tcG9zZTsNCglmb250LWZhbWls eToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsNCgljb2xvcjp3aW5kb3d0ZXh0O30NCi5Nc29DaHBEZWZh dWx0DQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOmV4cG9ydC1vbmx5Ow0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQ7DQoJ Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0KQHBhZ2UgV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJ e3NpemU6OC41aW4gMTEuMGluOw0KCW1hcmdpbjoxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbjt9DQpk aXYuV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3BhZ2U6V29yZFNlY3Rpb24xO30NCi0tPjwvc3R5bGU+DQo8L2hl YWQ+DQo8Ym9keSBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyIgbGluaz0iIzA1NjNDMSIgdmxpbms9IiM5NTRGNzIiIHN0 eWxlPSJ3b3JkLXdyYXA6YnJlYWstd29yZCI+DQo8ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0K PHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPllvdSBr bm93IHdoYXQgd291bGQgYmUgdmVyeSBjb29sPyZuYnNwOyBXaGVuIHlvdSBzZWUgdGhlIOKAnE9i c29sZXRlc+KAnSDigJxVcGRhdGVkIGJ54oCdIHRhZ3Mgb24gYW4gcmZjLWVkaXRvci5vcmcgaW5m byBwYWdlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBncmVhdCBpZiBhIHRvb2x0aXAgd291bGQgYXBwZWFyIHdpdGgg dGhlIFJGQyB0aXRsZSBpZiB5b3UgaG92ZXJlZCBvdmVyIG9uZSBvZiB0aG9zZQ0KIHJlZmVyZW5j ZXMuPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5 bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNs YXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ij5XaGVyZS93aG8g c2hvdWxkIEkgc3VnZ2VzdCB0aGlzIGNvb2xuZXNzIHRvPzxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4N CjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_11B247A6673F4EF89C2CF1ECD12C35B9akamaicom_-- From nobody Wed Sep 1 13:25:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A60E3A1901 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:25:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s2WJquc07Wtq for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60B203A1902 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H0Ftc0CmRz2xKF; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 22:25:44 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 22:25:43 +0200 Cc: Tools Discussion Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2D0D8750-886D-4DAC-A3F5-2F02A76328D8@tzi.org> References: To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What does "n.d." mean? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 20:25:54 -0000 =E2=80=9Cn.d." indeed means =E2=80=9Cno date=E2=80=9D. In scholarly citations, if there is no date associated with a reference, = one can use =E2=80=9Cn.d.=E2=80=9D to identify the reference as undated. Of course, styles differ here, but AFAICT, both APA and the Chicago = Manual of Style (CMOS) use =E2=80=9Cn.d.=E2=80=9D (*). (Incidentally, the RFC editor doesn=E2=80=99t seem to like =E2=80=9Cn.d.=E2= =80=9D, even though CMOS is the underlying style guide for RFCs.) =E2=80=9Cn.d." is the default value that kramdown-rfc assigns for a = reference=E2=80=99s date when none is given. The reason for this kramdown-rfc default is that it is easy to forget = putting in a date, and getting n.d. provides a reminder that you should = put in one. (It is also the =E2=80=9Ccorrect=E2=80=9D way to handle undated sources, = but see =E2=80=9Cthe RFC editor=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D above.) If you really don=E2=80=99t want a date, explicitly set date: false BTW, there is an example for that in https://github.com/cabo/kramdown-rfc2629#references I probably should add more detail to = https://github.com/cabo/kramdown-rfc2629/wiki/Pitfalls#reference-pitfalls Now https://github.com/cabo/kramdown-rfc2629/issues/130 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*) I love the advice given in [1] for MLA style: Do not use n.d. unless your professor asks you to do so. =20 [1]: https://libanswers.snhu.edu/faq/129215 > On 1. Sep 2021, at 20:15, Salz, Rich = wrote: >=20 > The TXT and HTML versions have this: > [IANA] "IANA", n.d., . > =20 > The MD file has this: > IANA: > target: https://www.ietf.org/standards/iana > title: IANA > =20 > What am I doing wrong? And is this written down someplace that I = should have read? Tnx. > =20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Wed Sep 1 13:37:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD78D3A1966 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:37:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TZqHEVd-PQpV for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F8D23A195F for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122330.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 181HSOQ4011456; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 21:37:21 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=atGlXgH4cohdDTizIyLBG6ZxjhefkVJb+AN+iCwUwrg=; b=hizAu3PUjndGsHAjrG35QVZR2F1bdHks3YAAePzMgPVO9IRHJCPFGmWsgbUXexSzhfjY LZewZcO12ekWrXuaL+1qnPGGUaMGycMzHQILAIzrtC1EepITffeHYFmcUA8CTfr/4yV0 YejcI9ME9Y4WkVubSA1sE/MnzBT7A9VJUO6L9KCRgODL9jFX9+9K9StC46Yu8JbTyvb0 RACp7kIDjtdDBw5ubkJyQA5skUlM/4SeRWvteDPu55TK8oOlXjH1mY7hIwGW1SJoD7br 82h0POyi6o/8xQ1fr8DuNUgibjeHUDQLXBAGKZzjQswdCp+5JgBpt/eErYm6rcFLMi1u qg== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3atdxv54y2-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 01 Sep 2021 21:37:20 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 181KYSTu016893; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:37:20 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3ate1vr6h2-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 01 Sep 2021 13:37:20 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:37:19 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:37:19 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Carsten Bormann CC: Tools Discussion Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] What does "n.d." mean? Thread-Index: AQHXn11N8GqffB3DNUyscOPUBMK2E6uP42aA///ALYA= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 20:37:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2D0D8750-886D-4DAC-A3F5-2F02A76328D8@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <2D0D8750-886D-4DAC-A3F5-2F02A76328D8@tzi.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.52.21080801 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <3E462510C7658E4A8F0F22EB80C3C35B@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-01_05:2021-09-01, 2021-09-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=670 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2108310000 definitions=main-2109010119 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: -Z05TS9N5b2V8AXXuRnR7jKXEpFzWJ1d X-Proofpoint-GUID: -Z05TS9N5b2V8AXXuRnR7jKXEpFzWJ1d X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-01_05,2021-09-01_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=616 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2108310000 definitions=main-2109010119 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.60) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What does "n.d." mean? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 20:37:29 -0000 SSBmaWd1cmVkIG4uZC4gbWVhbnQgbm8gZGF0ZSwgYnV0IEkgY291bGRuJ3QgZmlndXJlIG91dCB0 aGUgZm9ybWF0IGFuZCBkaWRuJ3Qga25vdyBhYm91dCBmYWxzZS4gIFRueC4NCg0K From nobody Wed Sep 1 13:43:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384AA3A19D3 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:43:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Su9rz2E-Nlfm for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79B233A19D0 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H0GHD4WQmz2xKP; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 22:43:36 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 22:43:36 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss , gmcpherran@outlook.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6E85BB93-54DC-4D4D-98E4-4D27698EC98A@tzi.org> References: To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 20:43:46 -0000 Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF = idiosyncrasy that one needs to learn about. If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D is = used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN would = use =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D. So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a" in Germany = and "3 bis" in France. In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D), bis, = ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g. = V.42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean you = demolish =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Creplacement = version of=E2=80=9D meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was = simply trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT = habit. (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there = anyway.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > Moving this to tools-discuss. >=20 >=20 > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 > From: Greg M > To: datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 >=20 > Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect = detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an = obscure term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no = explanation of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" = meaning e.g. in the "About" page. >=20 > Example of public "bis" confusion: > http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow >=20 > Thank You for the work that you do. >=20 > Greg McPherran > Siteware.org >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Wed Sep 1 16:20:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DA53A1D82 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:20:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1cZbooEDUnDD for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F9FD3A1D81 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id g14so164825pfm.1 for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 16:20:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=V6qDQ9/YPW/hU0QL3BNb8QkXOCldGbXh8LS5jPlrYLY=; b=kH0e/Go7T0KVWvMndfFoE30137/qAEA4wFRqJyG7kgCQXjj7tEXg57J+yOYGh7Np1A tDnAUF34sZYSVm//4z19S3J9BYoD1dUcgJ85z+zUi0aBE3IKi22ewt5/9weICM3hU8FS q6oywAo+UIRFhc+Ou6/b3lM1zSYcq0j1MrkiW+zl8V37R2maeAyyG8dXbXyK+R5DPUPk eklV08h5Kuwohn0ZpLb7Z3pM0nU9d1aIkRO6x6qVdsGlrtUvLcU/+JUkZKcxUcrplAXd uW+y5lDi06SkFax2bl3qJHMnxvj7W5CTYZL7Qq8cAxgJxotLssGC6QFHM8X8i3ZYkcw8 vw3g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=V6qDQ9/YPW/hU0QL3BNb8QkXOCldGbXh8LS5jPlrYLY=; b=gQxxdcr2qhukCkMXRFXDw77Kt9zkHQAmFUi6KEPPwW7e6FSEEYUaywsIZrYs6OWGxf oFuBMZ1xsvdL+aFj3h8gZt50rLlENvpf41jJuPynTSoY0wcuQyQL/4RwWMAw2zkL7+lr kHBooMPvNBERlSCu513CjhaQZI84qPiKRV9+N2QFz7OKLJrdpTisrcgVweRki2K+XtV9 TI184rsk5RYWHIUaG1J7TQ2Koz9nm0+R64Kl36vChStZdiqrrGa/ZCMnWMfonVZ6uQzy E12LslVMyR1YoGlkBENlvYP9tm7+xey/1eb3K74v/LwjNcYhDdo35vKEr7ncp5H1ALQc UIWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531f6270LQT+drAWzBOwOi6RySj2B5EObVD3UiQPHZwfr7AvDta6 cOGEJTJPJOdF5oVNqax2pnxVW+c5dmp93g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzVJWLk4D1jMdgVenBHQ8kSQskngGJ8umKfpiUMBCcGtINOVRyJh8RUoe8G17xPRQeHRKHBzw== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8e81:0:b0:3fe:f212:f9dd with SMTP id a1-20020aa78e81000000b003fef212f9ddmr300028pfr.46.1630538417779; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 16:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bx2sm27130pjb.35.2021.09.01.16.20.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 01 Sep 2021 16:20:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Carsten Bormann , Robert Sparks Cc: gmcpherran@outlook.com, tools-discuss References: <6E85BB93-54DC-4D4D-98E4-4D27698EC98A@tzi.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:20:12 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6E85BB93-54DC-4D4D-98E4-4D27698EC98A@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:20:26 -0000 > (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there an= yway.) The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "Re: 1= 602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew how = the CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow d= ebate, this is not exactly new terminology. Also, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bis . Does the IETF web = site really need to replace a dictionary? Regards Brian Carpenter On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF idio= syncrasy that one needs to learn about. >=20 > If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D i= s used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN woul= d use =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D. > So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a" in German= y and "3 bis" in France. >=20 > In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D), bis= , ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g= =2E V.42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. >=20 > Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean you demol= ish =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. >=20 > How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Creplacement ve= rsion of=E2=80=9D meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was si= mply trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT hab= it. >=20 > (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there an= yway.) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >=20 >> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote: >> >> Moving this to tools-discuss. >> >> >> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >> Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" >> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 >> From: Greg M >> To: datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> >> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detaile= d and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure=20 term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of "= bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in t= he "About" page. >> >> Example of public "bis" confusion: >> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow >> >> Thank You for the work that you do. >> >> Greg McPherran >> Siteware.org >> >> ___________________________________________= ________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf= =2Eorg >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 From nobody Wed Sep 1 16:35:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533133A1DF3 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:35:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FnYiqHgl9xLb for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:45:216:3eff:fe7f:7abd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3306D3A1DF1 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd] (unknown [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7536AE536; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 01:35:39 +0200 (CEST) To: Brian E Carpenter , Carsten Bormann , Robert Sparks Cc: gmcpherran@outlook.com, tools-discuss References: <6E85BB93-54DC-4D4D-98E4-4D27698EC98A@tzi.org> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:35:37 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:35:52 -0000 Also, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? So the draft that preceded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still does not seem right. rfc3489ter? On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there anyway.) > > The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "Re: 1602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew how the CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow debate, this is not exactly new terminology. > > Also, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bis . Does the IETF web site really need to replace a dictionary? > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF idiosyncrasy that one needs to learn about. >> >> If we are not talking about US export controls, “bis†is used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN would use “aâ€. >> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets “3a" in Germany and "3 bis" in France. >> >> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (“recommendationsâ€), bis, ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g. V.42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. >> >> Building a “3 bis†house doesn’t mean you demolish “3â€; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. >> >> How “bis†got the idiosyncratic “replacement version of†meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was simply trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT habit. >> >> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there anyway.) >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> >> >>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote: >>> >>> Moving this to tools-discuss. >>> >>> >>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >>> Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" >>> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 >>> From: Greg M >>> To: datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> >>> >>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure > term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in the "About" page. >>> >>> Example of public "bis" confusion: >>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow >>> >>> Thank You for the work that you do. >>> >>> Greg McPherran >>> Siteware.org >>> -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Wed Sep 1 16:58:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15CC13A1EAF for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:57:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w8hPLvieQVSE for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50E923A1EA6 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B25473E6AB for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:57:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nfwE6EcgW_tM for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 13A0E45EDB39 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:57:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-Id: <3318CCB9-0C79-47D4-A365-10AAAFE67160@ietf.org> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:57:47 +1200 To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Zulip implementation Service Plan X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:57:59 -0000 Hi I=E2=80=99ve put together a Service Plan for our upcoming Zulip = implementation based on work by Tim April and had that reviewed and = revised by a number of people who were involved in the trial. Robert is = now happy for this to be shared for comment and any further revisions. = Please find the document at = https://github.com/ietf-tools/zulip-implementation/blob/main/Service-Plan.= md The aim to is sign this off at the next Tools meeting in two weeks time. cheers Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Sep 1 17:01:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD653A1ED4 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:01:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.679 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.679 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yo70e1NyD4Dz for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A77763A1ED3 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (mobile-166-173-187-68.mycingular.net [166.173.187.68]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18201b3t017492 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 1 Sep 2021 19:01:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1630540899; bh=u4bXUkvn77HobSQG0RVcVqKQuVf1VizPpCf68CDZnww=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To; b=X1fpFsqLdt0+N3ASIYsjX5mu2Ovf6T/OKBfFLY5EbvowPyibKgfvvdYP6ip/A1cfu oFhX/0tHFfc+PPPKPgguwtaMogp1bX4PFr0n3P2J851kz+C4sHAP2QW9OKaYtVUHQC LkDiYh0hvyPw87ouqKU8VDs/X1zylF/GBn3B0m2g= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mobile-166-173-187-68.mycingular.net [166.173.187.68] claimed to be smtpclient.apple Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Robert Sparks Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 19:01:32 -0500 Message-Id: References: Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Carsten Bormann , gmcpherran@outlook.com, tools-discuss In-Reply-To: To: Marc Petit-Huguenin X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18G82) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 00:01:52 -0000 This is the updates conversation wearing a different skin.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:35 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? So the draft that p= receded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still does not seem r= ight. rfc3489ter? >=20 > On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there any= way.) >> The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "Re: 1= 602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew how the= CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow debate,= this is not exactly new terminology. >> Also, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bis . Does the IETF web s= ite really need to replace a dictionary? >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF idios= yncrasy that one needs to learn about. >>>=20 >>> If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D is= used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN would us= e =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D. >>> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a" in Germany= and "3 bis" in France. >>>=20 >>> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D), bis,= ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g. V.= 42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. >>>=20 >>> Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean you demoli= sh =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. >>>=20 >>> How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Creplacement ver= sion of=E2=80=9D meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was simply= trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT habit. >>>=20 >>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there any= way.) >>>=20 >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Moving this to tools-discuss. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >>>> Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" >>>> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 >>>> From: Greg M >>>> To: datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detailed= and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure >> term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of "= bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in the "= About" page. >>>>=20 >>>> Example of public "bis" confusion: >>>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow >>>>=20 >>>> Thank You for the work that you do. >>>>=20 >>>> Greg McPherran >>>> Siteware.org >>>>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Marc Petit-Huguenin > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org > Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Wed Sep 1 18:43:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A05F3A2246 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:43:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ry6kg2gYl80t for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-f170.google.com (mail-qk1-f170.google.com [209.85.222.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CAE33A2242 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-f170.google.com with SMTP id p4so431285qki.3 for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 18:43:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GyQ6z0T0gnAhRWNHBvbxknMJU0naO6+6XX5VG4FesYI=; b=DZZLxhODJdKNNVB8bTboGrKJko36z1/63iES5ekhqzVRsJKhQ8IRE2+0oml8o5y+sP wlVJra++VQPYLmoKvxEXCY0zMuVBi81BCotRaViCE29qDbB7zLGyX3oTthKpcKIVgpAQ uhORrDsz0rOHW+/as9IP3DhFxNsteYdKHmsOcQPAldhF8D10M1OzLiLrSbM1mNmKYsMh Fyi8B1ii4y0Cpur+BgZmKjtQiJcJ71Wi9IU2gthvTpSY7dvBd7qzkvf6pBC5zLjC7EDc M2Ksn6EVrDCys+wfE2J5P7BRFm39O5HQzX5kGJYNyOm2iHsW7IAiEC+/JBx159Xa++MC YJfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533QyjDyTaHJ8GQELRpa1hAavVHgYLdmmOJmjoAheV4zypRb7/qW 2/9cCo1p+HlUfV80h11dhPBrpr5AxDlrcA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzzUcPtHJFYTO2FisIX8HtRYbPVY7SgPFHL1atBzk1FpW5Ue62DRierqA6+W/bhnSjUwFZJrQ== X-Received: by 2002:a37:a04e:: with SMTP id j75mr976161qke.98.1630547003923; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 18:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.86.240] (c-98-229-239-247.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [98.229.239.247]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 20sm382642qkn.31.2021.09.01.18.43.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 01 Sep 2021 18:43:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "Tim April" To: "Jay Daley" Cc: tools-discuss Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 21:43:22 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3318CCB9-0C79-47D4-A365-10AAAFE67160@ietf.org> References: <3318CCB9-0C79-47D4-A365-10AAAFE67160@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_210C7877-F828-459A-8C50-2040AA6BD263_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Zulip implementation Service Plan X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 01:43:30 -0000 --=_MailMate_210C7877-F828-459A-8C50-2040AA6BD263_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jay, In re-reading the document I have a few comments for further discussion: 1.2: Do we expect all users to understand what OIDC is? Could “Datatracker OIDC†be replaced with “Datatracker Single Sign-Onâ€? 1.3: I would also suggest adding this to the end of the section. “#NOTEWELL will be a default stream for all users.†This can be configured through the organizational settings for the instance. 2.1: For the first bullet under the mailing list mirror note, I would replace “In this configuration they can choose not to subscribe to the list mirror.†With “In this configuration they can choose not to subscribe to the list mirror in zulip or to mute the stream them to view or search the mirrored messages without receiving notifications for them.†3.1: It may also be worth noting that attachments will also be retained for some period of time. 3.1: It may be worth calling out the message edit time restriction, if enabled. In the tulip services that I host / operate, we have the edit timer set to 10 minutes just to limit the length of time that of the change to somewhere near the time the conversation happened. 3.1: As an operator, from time to time I get requests to delete messages, either because someone sends something sensitive to the service or they misspeak and may feel it is something which could have negative impact on others. It may be up to Jay, Lars and Counsel as to what policy / process could be used to delete a message, but I would suggest thinking a little about that before the switch announcement. 3.2: This section is very vague about under what circumstances DMs may be inspected. My instinct is to avoid anything which I do not expect to be public on the IETF zulip system with the wording of this section, but I feel like that remove some of the usefulness of the system. In the corporate space, there is usually a well defined policy which governs the ability for operators to access messages under three conditions: 1) Verified lawful request from an agency with jurisdiction (usually verified by counsel) 2) Explicit policy which defines the conditions under which access may be granted to a set of messages (Eg: HR dispute, discovery, harassment claims, etc). 3) Extraordinary conditions under which a quorum of some set of participants documents a need to access messages. Some of these policies also include criteria under which the parties to these messages will be informed that the message was retrieved. 4 - Other Integrations: Are additional integrations allowed to be deployed by IETF participants? Are there criteria to do so? Who needs to be contact/involved/informed to do something like that? Thanks! --tim On 1 Sep 2021, at 19:57, Jay Daley wrote: > Hi > > I’ve put together a Service Plan for our upcoming Zulip > implementation based on work by Tim April and had that reviewed and > revised by a number of people who were involved in the trial. Robert > is now happy for this to be shared for comment and any further > revisions. Please find the document at > > https://github.com/ietf-tools/zulip-implementation/blob/main/Service-Plan.md > > The aim to is sign this off at the next Tools meeting in two weeks > time. > > cheers > Jay > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --=_MailMate_210C7877-F828-459A-8C50-2040AA6BD263_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Jay,

In re-reading the document I have a few comments for furt= her discussion:

1.2: Do we expect all users to understand what OIDC is? C= ould =E2=80=9CDatatracker OIDC=E2=80=9D be replaced with =E2=80=9CDatatra= cker Single Sign-On=E2=80=9D?

1.3: I would also suggest adding this to the end of the s= ection. =E2=80=9C#NOTEWELL will be a default stream for all users.=E2=80=9D= This can be configured through the organizational settings for the insta= nce.

2.1: For the first bullet under the mailing list mirror n= ote, I would replace

=E2=80=9CIn this =
configuration they can choose not to subscribe to the list mirror.=E2=80=9D=

With

=E2=80=9CIn this =
configuration they can choose not to subscribe to the list mirror in zuli=
p or to mute the stream them to view or search the mirrored messages with=
out receiving notifications for them.=E2=80=9D

3.1: It may also be worth noting that attachments will al= so be retained for some period of time.

3.1: It may be worth calling out the message edit time re= striction, if enabled. In the tulip services that I host / operate, we ha= ve the edit timer set to 10 minutes just to limit the length of time that= of the change to somewhere near the time the conversation happened.

3.1: As an operator, from time to time I get requests to = delete messages, either because someone sends something sensitive to the = service or they misspeak and may feel it is something which could have ne= gative impact on others. It may be up to Jay, Lars and Counsel as to what= policy / process could be used to delete a message, but I would suggest = thinking a little about that before the switch announcement.

3.2: This section is very vague about under what circumst= ances DMs may be inspected. My instinct is to avoid anything which I do n= ot expect to be public on the IETF zulip system with the wording of this = section, but I feel like that remove some of the usefulness of the system= =2E In the corporate space, there is usually a well defined policy which = governs the ability for operators to access messages under three conditio= ns:

1) Verified lawfu=
l request from an agency with jurisdiction (usually verified by counsel)
2) Explicit policy which defines the conditions under which access may be=
 granted to a set of messages (Eg: HR dispute, discovery, harassment clai=
ms, etc).
3) Extraordinary conditions under which a quorum of some set of participa=
nts documents a need to access messages.

Some of these policies also include criteria under which = the parties to these messages will be informed that the message was retri= eved.

4 - Other Integrations: Are additional integrations allow= ed to be deployed by IETF participants? Are there criteria to do so? Who = needs to be contact/involved/informed to do something like that?

Thanks!

--tim

On 1 Sep 2021, at 19:57, Jay Daley wrote:

H= i

I=E2=80=99ve put together a Service Plan for our upcoming Zulip implement= ation based on work by Tim April and had that reviewed and revised by a n= umber of people who were involved in the trial. Robert is now happy for = this to be shared for comment and any further revisions. Please find the= document at

https://github.com/ietf-tools/zulip= -implementation/blob/main/Service-Plan.md

The aim to is sign this off at the next Tools meeting in two weeks time.<= br>
cheers
Jay

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

--=_MailMate_210C7877-F828-459A-8C50-2040AA6BD263_=-- From nobody Thu Sep 2 04:55:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE943A0815 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:55:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HWSlSkxtg7TD for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EA023A0814 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id g9so2000862ioq.11 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 04:54:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3uReiKry6ycMko1hLItV5FFCXbxffqNJmw/WgCazC28=; b=ZbV3DXBP/ZKtLhUjaHI9MiS78U5/JJDnRL5xqDeQdyVTogD8fxxGGxqyszBGQNO/+d ZuQp7+czFFLnAtA2pXX89Z/zoPLke+5szF97jhks2PgfC32VjJY7nPjMLMZtdF0z9/m6 /akjsd9fcDuT6JtFpdNp85emsXcmX66rFA9aj+9DGa/d5xtU8LWEYFWsoZZF0qGMyS33 ZOdXXgUQ0A27xrdP+vqX8QzCnIuuGZYziNP1lI1hgJLpiGmCfOUGS6h8X3sfVpX52eZK fkL31fk3vEuqTTeQMOCdRJM5bVjeez9hTTvVv6Kus9bWLHczaYr84KcOkJjtKDeqp+lN 4HsA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3uReiKry6ycMko1hLItV5FFCXbxffqNJmw/WgCazC28=; b=K9+u4hWrdNs9yT6wDSeMETbdPOheUNMv34jDyrGcY3El50N42DkC9QsSn+pEYQ7M6/ EUN9jl9DP4F99PH428A7KE/SOg9lFDnP2K1oIwMQiNEVpydTxJrOg8w8Ydhzg7njGXlV umUyPWsbSQgzrkJRt2ovN5hbv3FkQqm1NQ/u6olvtxXQXN2DZAMqc3BecEc1/ejKZ8cp +heCRU4X0CcuL/Y6l6tSGRzAgjUjm8oMuSVaSHIxMkeim0Z7fLs+wNQm5C70oTmcnU/i Rf2CqsDFzgiEKC3cz9VaovtZXF+lVmyHNaNlVDBZptcMOYx5yFpgekpXFvtqxKAo23iL kWVw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531TMaNDbONxCCiTE9i2fNdA9M6l0XsbgiO4pV6pVUU4XiAcQOHi 39aoli0ahCpJ63R09xK1gg8wJqO8L7KAGWatNQc94/+q8lA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzwtmHywr4nefJ6Vp7lK4ObLFvQJYcU8gSgKq3Ttm+IbEte6ZLAGDr+Wo4E8n3Wd4Eh3c4xS+2oo2xGNOyyX5M= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:5911:: with SMTP id n17mr2371076iob.180.1630583692772; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 04:54:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <65686008-0EB5-4765-B20F-C3E038C5EF28@bluepopcorn.net> In-Reply-To: <65686008-0EB5-4765-B20F-C3E038C5EF28@bluepopcorn.net> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 07:54:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jim Fenton Cc: Tools Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c8cc4705cb01d940" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Session Request notification email X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 11:55:01 -0000 --000000000000c8cc4705cb01d940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim, This is a known bug - Robert recently sent an email about it to the WG chairs list, see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/xNVLdd6FlSmlfxinfuJYuuZXd1U/ . Cheers, Andy On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 3:09 PM Jim Fenton wrote: > After scheduling a WG session just now, I noticed that the =E2=80=9CConfl= icts to > Avoid=E2=80=9D section was blank even though I had listed several conflic= ts (both > chair and technology conflicts). Did this get lost from the notification > message somehow? If so, does that notification come from the datatracker = or > from AMS? If the former, I can open a ticket on that, but I=E2=80=99m not= sure > where the dividing line is. > > -Jim > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000c8cc4705cb01d940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jim,

This is a known bug - Robert recen= tly sent an email about it to the WG chairs list, see=C2=A0htt= ps://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/xNVLdd6FlSmlfxinfuJYuuZXd1U/ .



On = Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 3:09 PM Jim Fenton <fenton@bluepopcorn.net> wrote:
=
After scheduling a WG ses= sion just now, I noticed that the =E2=80=9CConflicts to Avoid=E2=80=9D sect= ion was blank even though I had listed several conflicts (both chair and te= chnology conflicts). Did this get lost from the notification message someho= w? If so, does that notification come from the datatracker or from AMS? If = the former, I can open a ticket on that, but I=E2=80=99m not sure where the= dividing line is.

-Jim

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000c8cc4705cb01d940-- From nobody Thu Sep 2 04:57:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB08C3A0878 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:57:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m6TYqhcVH-Iz for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3F8C3A0868 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id b7so2034105iob.4 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 04:57:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=F0QKXWor7AwApn1Moauk063HQEbX2UK73wcABYftybo=; b=kG0qHSHk7+ClPLvUUyKSeyG/ZIyYZhWNcAoXizeIPUeQvB471PontgpNqqgDigia2/ qntgYGr1sst/0SDeJ4PgjKIWv6nEXjieG+AoikvbA2Y/aRV5Y3hWK9NB3GXQSudTMawX bCOuUIqMWm9vH5fbfQ/MedQoF78fMQhlnzBmnqnMNliakwTEdIr428qwL+oMe6y3fILk fD2TGZqX5s3dOmuwJ3y6iuwemPPiipzwxCnxH6xtP86HeVeThfm1V7FVuoT/ZFbzY3nH Swttlm3dVi+zbXz8f8BO75e7eDP6xpi26n4Y2sCkCVwzvKO0mIKs4rnW8RZigaZwolLE Lx/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=F0QKXWor7AwApn1Moauk063HQEbX2UK73wcABYftybo=; b=I19ImdvDV2Gle1pQhNpU4e5WE+4T43+BRGabeYK6i3dKyiVnxhKfnLinikRUZtL5vo Djmb8wcXZQUhysnwfdWj6kAYuue0aUBLR4d+w9DpHn2f7nNWqyhfumnbNtP2kIdCscPQ 5g4rSvVdnGCm5eUxALmx3vbnhRlZII+bggYKXCTe5sw58+fOgC1QDHFA44KuZJ957bXd maU8pEQmHULzhNePv3kwvzhjNxvHRRd9je3xDNaHhFmSoJNL5hFyuujo7Ft6ID8xEjWR o9PzQ8CVczxUFPVv9eRJfUAwS2MqEjz4TheowepG02uSVBquix9ALg+cZPVSvWcFEADY i/HA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ye4sWXjOpNQP5EUxNmF3WIN7iYvmPHDzzWkF2XN1N51AZ3SK8 texDtntw1qre3Tik9u2zI1jmIEC1OYPE3meGwIOGpp99 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw2vXsFmQTaKUJz7S2p4TAEz216CcNDqTFcnvoYHvJmEfkYhVehhx6aMZjLZGj6ydbZZKgDZRBJEqX3B3QRm2o= X-Received: by 2002:a02:bb16:: with SMTP id y22mr2479876jan.129.1630583840202; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 04:57:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <11B247A6-673F-4EF8-9C2C-F1ECD12C35B9@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <11B247A6-673F-4EF8-9C2C-F1ECD12C35B9@akamai.com> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 07:57:04 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Tools Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009264c605cb01e2e5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] where to make suggestions for rfc-editor.org pages? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 11:57:28 -0000 --0000000000009264c605cb01e2e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rich, I would suggest an email to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Cheers, Andy On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 4:14 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > You know what would be very cool? When you see the =E2=80=9CObsoletes=E2= =80=9D =E2=80=9CUpdated > by=E2=80=9D tags on an rfc-editor.org info page, it would be great if a t= ooltip > would appear with the RFC title if you hovered over one of those referenc= es. > > > > Where/who should I suggest this coolness to? > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --0000000000009264c605cb01e2e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rich,

I would suggest an email to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org.

Cheers,
Andy


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Wed, Sep= 1, 2021 at 4:14 PM Salz, Rich <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

You know what would b= e very cool?=C2=A0 When you see the =E2=80=9CObsoletes=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9CUp= dated by=E2=80=9D tags on an rfc-editor.org info page, it would be great if a tooltip would ap= pear with the RFC title if you hovered over one of those references.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Where/who should I su= ggest this coolness to?

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--0000000000009264c605cb01e2e5-- From nobody Thu Sep 2 11:35:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 798263A1B92 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:35:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=bluepopcorn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yWLkgEIfF6ag for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v2.bluepopcorn.net (v2.bluepopcorn.net [IPv6:2607:f2f8:a994::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F16CE3A1B90 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:34:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bluepopcorn.net; s=supersize; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Date:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=oMXmigV1eD4fXoybT9upxnyEjUDAaRUVbmUDzH7XzhM=; b=CtaqOXHnEeIX2HUEZEPvrRsCXb ZgLLCwHX38bl+Wqld12eTLJ/Qkw+5I/NtijjbG7GaDa9gW5I/8EFAIJgkh82Cw2HThQKoDKGAmHxL d4Zxjl4oU8K5T8J3ySmIfx9ExUbOq5j5aRxq3eVDLu8IV2jQC9ntnp744Wvig/hOBQw8=; Received: from [2601:647:4400:1261:407e:ba0d:5a39:be3f] (helo=[10.10.20.144]) by v2.bluepopcorn.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mLrY2-0005Dw-G5; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 11:34:51 -0700 From: Jim Fenton To: "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: Tools Discussion Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 11:34:49 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5820) Message-ID: <3AE282A8-4AAA-44C9-8D0F-7066A2146E47@bluepopcorn.net> In-Reply-To: References: <65686008-0EB5-4765-B20F-C3E038C5EF28@bluepopcorn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Session Request notification email X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 18:35:02 -0000 On 2 Sep 2021, at 4:54, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Jim, > > This is a known bug - Robert recently sent an email about it to the WG > chairs list, see > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/xNVLdd6FlSmlfxinfuJYuuZXd1U/ > . > > Cheers, > Andy Thanks, Andy. I looked around a bit for something like that but didn’t find it. -Jim > On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 3:09 PM Jim Fenton wrote: > >> After scheduling a WG session just now, I noticed that the “Conflicts to >> Avoid†section was blank even though I had listed several conflicts (both >> chair and technology conflicts). Did this get lost from the notification >> message somehow? If so, does that notification come from the datatracker or >> from AMS? If the former, I can open a ticket on that, but I’m not sure >> where the dividing line is. >> >> -Jim >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> From nobody Fri Sep 3 12:09:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B123A295C for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:57:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VGNGIhPiUaES for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12olkn2067.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.23.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C01493A2937 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:57:48 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=JmXtbGmksb19YQuShVJ8zVBuVL/dQNA6/gZ8Wv25LqQV4HV+CayHQrasLNLoVWOGBL/amFQjTik9pT6OHwa+ZiLcTEkkEdFnSKWauLxnkQYo3nIKw/dVizQDHlCGVyXvZnnAv1CAInNLhhRd35IMAwLmak8cqUeyYHGkCxy4zILsKrGzcVfCNia87xDaydkAtkHB7+1zf3FYq4uJnvM+s4ciViDbC9lZV8rTImUBwVEGGAoS9rLo1n5NG8+MRg4GgngBfWGnqA2BzLau5pXEwQ+k8oS5yN5RRDM1NjEL9/75ELZndhWo4v73dvlqyuLROmLP7aT14BjvJk8X2mygxA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ekKLzLAvc458AXp9WlSHgMhI+mVn19MmsdSVUkrvrqM=; b=f/XdquLdNxGsgBhCYUS2nYj6yGT5HbleL4t9dxf2x3vWJdl65/IgLWf4KLvsttfMHu1LtxnonU3IV5ZhZfj0uIKQGb2NTqaQOx5mrcRz9mzQJoztzHIgJ63l/WGZraP0R0QNWT4TdisTWMG2oiK3KMSzwxNopBfLj0I6HNletgkHznEhcV0Os6bAX87kbaT22UEx2nKj7dgM+/dgYsF6zhkdeQcge2/u0vMwYtCp9izJTJcLM3Lptq6TidLR5lIcyjKQR7O+EgH1BZs+b1AWFwpf07Qx9DVV4svESY5yl890MG85qE7mhkTMytLJV/qFDbBXVooYDui9bJZJzDIWsQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ekKLzLAvc458AXp9WlSHgMhI+mVn19MmsdSVUkrvrqM=; b=Mb3U3PJ+aA9VoGzrheKypp4Rre6uwrbUvPJKdkwjfrCZw306tAD/HmJ4mw24IzniSQ8hAr47QJ04Rdv9OTf3OH+s7KOyckQaAbPGA5LM6CboPqrWdiTQohMsMvEFU/ew+Is8IOBnr66rKOqWkbHA9DyqlCLW2Q6qycXFA1nYA/M6CWhwxuhVbEAcx9O5x1j7mt3cwfS/m0gaBgCuP9NODpTTqrkS+CaUfH6sFwQDqZlPqrycJVYaHJvXU6R7+ojDI+NLhlDbjaSUlAvK48tGxTfiJ3N/P4OGDLTIQsRtwEBqqSyBs+ueuc725GoUqvoAfLxtKlv6qUgPfro9wkPS1w== Received: from MN2PR04MB6672.namprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:1e5::14) by BL0PR04MB5060.namprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:5a::28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4457.24; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:57:47 +0000 Received: from MN2PR04MB6672.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3509:fe7f:4cae:abb8]) by MN2PR04MB6672.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3509:fe7f:4cae:abb8%9]) with mapi id 15.20.4478.022; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:57:47 +0000 From: Greg M To: Robert Sparks , Marc Petit-Huguenin CC: Brian E Carpenter , Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" Thread-Index: AQHXn428rrouLtSXtkaPPBz915Gh26uSpDc2 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:57:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: suggested_attachment_session_id: 70117a85-a2f6-ab5d-acc0-b6a02cb9a891 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [2v3LSt2KlrXyrkDV4VViHTBcmiotOJ+BW5biT8paQosbtP+PKGc9RGuh83gS0VPoiJ78abqoZJk=] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 04ff39f4-a646-4ad6-102d-08d96f0cb87a x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL0PR04MB5060: x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: E4JkkFNQOylMWvWYU+IvVOnmWtiNkl13lUcI0BDyeDb9Zpw8mFQUlS+qi1uwXq/CX5uaBITZ81kCNzN6/ltsYKNOw1JP+NuPpPE3JKANxkuw5XBd8wE59Y1YfNRIic68Pck5tofzM1fMj00KxOeGxnoljOUtRBm1rBR27NrS2AnM82K2gDQMoeECrN9rmYKY29LgPNPzqOwlTpYWdEOjZNtDQof/KskNMFCgV/VuAa6/PzgGtx0t0EfDHye7BadbB85tTkzVe22e8z9VtRsCpDWqQT5m5hqgWE2Ug0o/dnp73Q7nVMOMUizvEDtigielC20aJJjwAK/zNmzM1YCSxQU0T6leg9eIANtbtPzfpxo+OVV0/03h7qFZRYF/RUh7++gRoyZVE6N+bza358tka3BMACFt5WzZF/wA4UwXARXqsqhyG8SpoXxWFn2jWoK4wLVlkjrrTwuf42Ft1UJ93wpFd7h3Z+ipyi1H+M0P5QM= x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: 8I6dCAnCVuKPpvJfGNfssMQEwGIqd/CQJZzXRzYN3LwatcBgyCuuMKYZbq+sxKPFCznbNqUFwvR5wDPhiY4aMj3D0rdAS0f+OBv45oL6WiaidBv9pyJyWL7fAEXEJNfR28E67OmMio1x4+aGZjiPU/FV6bAsWNB64kBLbGt7pin8+bisRP7nonzzy5CHVyLqPaQsy+X9ikm5erAneEjZ0Q== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR04MB667261021288F885B06F2C5489CF9MN2PR04MB6672namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR04MB6672.namprd04.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 04ff39f4-a646-4ad6-102d-08d96f0cb87a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Sep 2021 18:57:47.3992 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR04MB5060 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 12:09:19 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 18:57:56 -0000 --_000_MN2PR04MB667261021288F885B06F2C5489CF9MN2PR04MB6672namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhhbmtzIGtpbmRseSBmb3IgcmVzcG9uc2VzLg0KDQo+PiDvu79BbHNvLCBzaG91bGRuJ3QgdGhl IHVwZGF0ZSBvZiBhIGJpcyBiZSBhIHRlcj8NClBlcmhhcHMgbm90IGFzIGltcG9ydGFudCBhcyBz aW1wbHkgZGVmaW5pbmcsIHNvbWV3aGVyZSBsb2dpY2FsIG9uIHRoZSBJRVRGIHNpdGUsIHRoZSBt ZWFuaW5nIG9mICJiaXMiIGFzIHVzZWQuDQoNCkdyZWcgTWNQaGVycmFuDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpGcm9tOiBSb2JlcnQgU3BhcmtzIDxyanNwYXJrc0Bub3N0 cnVtLmNvbT4NClNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDEsIDIwMjEgODowMSBQTQ0KVG86 IE1hcmMgUGV0aXQtSHVndWVuaW4gPG1hcmNAcGV0aXQtaHVndWVuaW4ub3JnPg0KQ2M6IEJyaWFu IEUgQ2FycGVudGVyIDxicmlhbi5lLmNhcnBlbnRlckBnbWFpbC5jb20+OyBDYXJzdGVuIEJvcm1h bm4gPGNhYm9AdHppLm9yZz47IGdtY3BoZXJyYW5Ab3V0bG9vay5jb20gPGdtY3BoZXJyYW5Ab3V0 bG9vay5jb20+OyB0b29scy1kaXNjdXNzIDx0b29scy1kaXNjdXNzQGlldGYub3JnPg0KU3ViamVj dDogUmU6IFtUb29scy1kaXNjdXNzXSBbZGphbmdvLXByb2plY3RdICJiaXMiIGluIEhUVFAiYmlz Ig0KDQpUaGlzIGlzIHRoZSB1cGRhdGVzIGNvbnZlcnNhdGlvbiB3ZWFyaW5nIGEgZGlmZmVyZW50 IHNraW4uDQoNClNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBpUGhvbmUNCg0KPiBPbiBTZXAgMSwgMjAyMSwgYXQgNjoz NSBQTSwgTWFyYyBQZXRpdC1IdWd1ZW5pbiA8bWFyY0BwZXRpdC1odWd1ZW5pbi5vcmc+IHdyb3Rl Og0KPg0KPiDvu79BbHNvLCBzaG91bGRuJ3QgdGhlIHVwZGF0ZSBvZiBhIGJpcyBiZSBhIHRlcj8g IFNvIHRoZSBkcmFmdCB0aGF0IHByZWNlZGVkIFJGQyA4NDg5IHNob3VsZCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gcmZj NTM4OXRlciwgYnV0IHRoYXQgc3RpbGwgZG9lcyBub3Qgc2VlbSByaWdodC4gIHJmYzM0ODl0ZXI/ DQo+DQo+IE9uIDkvMS8yMSA0OjIwIFBNLCBCcmlhbiBFIENhcnBlbnRlciB3cm90ZToNCj4+PiAo Tm90IHF1aXRlIGludGVybmV0LWhpc3RvcnkgbWF0ZXJpYWwsIGJ1dCB3ZSBtaWdodCB3YW50IHRv IGFzayB0aGVyZSBhbnl3YXkuKQ0KPj4gVGhlIG9sZGVzdCByZWxldmFudCBlbWFpbCBJIGhhdmUg aXMgZGF0ZWQgMjUgTWF5IDE5OTQgd2l0aCBzdWJqZWN0ICJSZTogMTYwMmJpcyByZWFkeSBmb3Ig cmV2aWV3Iiwgc2VudCB0byBMeW1hbiBDaGFwaW4sIHdobyBpbmRlZWQgYWxzbyBrbmV3IGhvdyB0 aGUgQ0NJVFQgZGlkIHRoaW5ncy4gU28gZGVzcGl0ZSB0aGUgYXN0b25pc2htZW50IGluIHRoYXQg U3RhY2tPdmVyZmxvdyBkZWJhdGUsIHRoaXMgaXMgbm90IGV4YWN0bHkgbmV3IHRlcm1pbm9sb2d5 Lg0KPj4gQWxzbywgaHR0cHM6Ly9uYTAxLnNhZmVsaW5rcy5wcm90ZWN0aW9uLm91dGxvb2suY29t Lz91cmw9aHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZ3d3cubWVycmlhbS13ZWJzdGVyLmNvbSUyRmRpY3Rpb25hcnkl MkZiaXMmYW1wO2RhdGE9MDQlN0MwMSU3QyU3QzJiZDhmY2VlMzg0MDRkY2E0NWIyMDhkOTZkYTRk YzRhJTdDODRkZjllN2ZlOWY2NDBhZmI0MzVhYWFhYWFhYWFhYWElN0MxJTdDMCU3QzYzNzY2MTM3 NzEyNDkwMTI3MSU3Q1Vua25vd24lN0NUV0ZwYkdac2IzZDhleUpXSWpvaU1DNHdMakF3TURBaUxD SlFJam9pVjJsdU16SWlMQ0pCVGlJNklrMWhhV3dpTENKWFZDSTZNbjAlM0QlN0MxMDAwJmFtcDtz ZGF0YT1GdERuMER3TElmaDdYazZNeldSaDl6OFBEZUNJRE50Wk1vT1RzT00xa1FJJTNEJmFtcDty ZXNlcnZlZD0wIC4gRG9lcyB0aGUgSUVURiB3ZWIgc2l0ZSByZWFsbHkgbmVlZCB0byByZXBsYWNl IGEgZGljdGlvbmFyeT8NCj4+IFJlZ2FyZHMNCj4+ICAgIEJyaWFuIENhcnBlbnRlcg0KPj4gT24g MDItU2VwLTIxIDA4OjQzLCBDYXJzdGVuIEJvcm1hbm4gd3JvdGU6DQo+Pj4gTm90IHN1cmUgdGhp cyBiZWxvbmdzIG9uIHRvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3MsIGJ1dCB0aGlzIGlzIGluZGVlZCBhbiBJRVRGIGlk aW9zeW5jcmFzeSB0aGF0IG9uZSBuZWVkcyB0byBsZWFybiBhYm91dC4NCj4+Pg0KPj4+IElmIHdl IGFyZSBub3QgdGFsa2luZyBhYm91dCBVUyBleHBvcnQgY29udHJvbHMsIOKAnGJpc+KAnSBpcyB1 c2VkIGluIGhvdXNlIG51bWJlcmluZyBpbiBSb21hbmNlIGxhbmd1YWdlcyB0aGUgc2FtZSB3YXkg REUgb3IgRU4gd291bGQgdXNlIOKAnGHigJ0uDQo+Pj4gU28gaWYgeW91IGJ1aWxkIGEgaG91c2Ug YmV0d2VlbiAzIGFuZCA0LCBpdCBnZXRzIOKAnDNhIiBpbiBHZXJtYW55IGFuZCAiMyBiaXMiIGlu IEZyYW5jZS4NCj4+Pg0KPj4+IEluIENDSVRUIChub3cgSVRVLVQpIHN0YW5kYXJkcyAo4oCccmVj b21tZW5kYXRpb25z4oCdKSwgYmlzLCB0ZXIsIGV0Yy4gaXMgdXNlZCBmb3IgZG9jdW1lbnRzIHRo YXQgYXJlIHJlbGF0ZWQgdG8gYW4gZWFybGllciBvbmUsIGUuZy4gVi40MiBpcyBtb2RlbSBlcnJv ciBjb250cm9sLCBhbmQgVi40MmJpcyBhZGRzIGNvbXByZXNzaW9uIHRvIHRoYXQuDQo+Pj4NCj4+ PiBCdWlsZGluZyBhIOKAnDMgYmlz4oCdIGhvdXNlIGRvZXNu4oCZdCBtZWFuIHlvdSBkZW1vbGlz aCDigJwz4oCdOyBWLjQyYmlzIGlzIG5vdCBhIHJlcGxhY2VtZW50IGZvciBWLjQyLg0KPj4+DQo+ Pj4gSG93IOKAnGJpc+KAnSBnb3QgdGhlIGlkaW9zeW5jcmF0aWMg4oCccmVwbGFjZW1lbnQgdmVy c2lvbiBvZuKAnSBtZWFuaW5nIGluIElFVEYgaXMgdW5rbm93biB0byBtZTsgSSBzdXNwZWN0IHRo YXQgd2FzIHNpbXBseSB0cnlpbmcgdG8gbWltaWMgKGFuZCBtb2NrLCBhbGwgdGhlIHdoaWxlIG1p c3VuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmcpIENDSVRUIGhhYml0Lg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gKE5vdCBxdWl0ZSBpbnRlcm5l dC1oaXN0b3J5IG1hdGVyaWFsLCBidXQgd2UgbWlnaHQgd2FudCB0byBhc2sgdGhlcmUgYW55d2F5 LikNCj4+Pg0KPj4+IEdyw7zDn2UsIENhcnN0ZW4NCj4+Pg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4+IE9uIDEuIFNlcCAy MDIxLCBhdCAxODo1NCwgUm9iZXJ0IFNwYXJrcyA8cmpzcGFya3NAbm9zdHJ1bS5jb20+IHdyb3Rl Og0KPj4+Pg0KPj4+PiBNb3ZpbmcgdGhpcyB0byB0b29scy1kaXNjdXNzLg0KPj4+Pg0KPj4+Pg0K Pj4+PiAtLS0tLS0tLSBGb3J3YXJkZWQgTWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLS0tLQ0KPj4+PiBTdWJqZWN0OiAg ICBbZGphbmdvLXByb2plY3RdICJiaXMiIGluIEhUVFAiYmlzIg0KPj4+PiBEYXRlOiAgICBNb24s IDMwIEF1ZyAyMDIxIDIyOjM5OjI5ICswMDAwDQo+Pj4+IEZyb206ICAgIEdyZWcgTSA8R01jUGhl cnJhbkBvdXRsb29rLmNvbT4NCj4+Pj4gVG86ICAgIGRhdGF0cmFja2VyLXByb2plY3RAaWV0Zi5v cmcgPGRhdGF0cmFja2VyLXByb2plY3RAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+Pj4+DQo+Pj4+DQo+Pj4+IEhpLCB0 aG9zZSB3aG8gcmVhZCB0aGVzZSBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9ucyBhbHJlYWR5IGtub3cgdG8gZXhwZWN0 IGRldGFpbGVkIGFuZCBkcnkgZG9jdW1lbnRzLCBzbyBwcmVzZW50aW5nIHRoZW0gcmlnaHQgb2Zm IHRoZSBiYXQgd2l0aCBhbiBvYnNjdXJlDQo+PiB0ZXJtICJiaXMiIGlzIG5vdCBoZWxwZnVsLiA6 LSkgQSBzZWFyY2ggb24gSUVURiBzaG93cyBubyBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBvZiAiYmlzIiBzbyB5b3Ug d291bGQgZG8gd2VsbCB0byBwcm92aWRlIGEgbm90ZSBhYm91dCAiYmlzIiBtZWFuaW5nIGUuZy4g aW4gdGhlICJBYm91dCIgcGFnZS4NCj4+Pj4NCj4+Pj4gRXhhbXBsZSBvZiBwdWJsaWMgImJpcyIg Y29uZnVzaW9uOg0KPj4+PiBodHRwIC0gSFRUUGJpcyAtIHdoYXQgZG9lcyBiaXMgbWVhbj8gLSBT dGFjayBPdmVyZmxvdw0KPj4+Pg0KPj4+PiBUaGFuayBZb3UgZm9yIHRoZSB3b3JrIHRoYXQgeW91 IGRvLg0KPj4+Pg0KPj4+PiBHcmVnIE1jUGhlcnJhbg0KPj4+PiBTaXRld2FyZS5vcmcNCj4+Pj4N Cj4NCj4NCj4NCj4gLS0NCj4gTWFyYyBQZXRpdC1IdWd1ZW5pbg0KPiBFbWFpbDogbWFyY0BwZXRp dC1odWd1ZW5pbi5vcmcNCj4gQmxvZzogaHR0cHM6Ly9uYTAxLnNhZmVsaW5rcy5wcm90ZWN0aW9u Lm91dGxvb2suY29tLz91cmw9aHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZtYXJjLnBldGl0LWh1Z3VlbmluLm9yZyUy RiZhbXA7ZGF0YT0wNCU3QzAxJTdDJTdDMmJkOGZjZWUzODQwNGRjYTQ1YjIwOGQ5NmRhNGRjNGEl N0M4NGRmOWU3ZmU5ZjY0MGFmYjQzNWFhYWFhYWFhYWFhYSU3QzElN0MwJTdDNjM3NjYxMzc3MTI0 OTA2MjQ5JTdDVW5rbm93biU3Q1RXRnBiR1pzYjNkOGV5SldJam9pTUM0d0xqQXdNREFpTENKUUlq b2lWMmx1TXpJaUxDSkJUaUk2SWsxaGFXd2lMQ0pYVkNJNk1uMCUzRCU3QzEwMDAmYW1wO3NkYXRh PVI2RzVJJTJGMFE2c3J6b1N6Y0hXVXhLMTA0V3pwRzVkdU9jJTJCaU9XZ1U0MTNZJTNEJmFtcDty ZXNlcnZlZD0wDQo+IFByb2ZpbGU6IGh0dHBzOi8vbmEwMS5zYWZlbGlua3MucHJvdGVjdGlvbi5v dXRsb29rLmNvbS8/dXJsPWh0dHBzJTNBJTJGJTJGd3d3LmxpbmtlZGluLmNvbSUyRmluJTJGcGV0 aXRodWcmYW1wO2RhdGE9MDQlN0MwMSU3QyU3QzJiZDhmY2VlMzg0MDRkY2E0NWIyMDhkOTZkYTRk YzRhJTdDODRkZjllN2ZlOWY2NDBhZmI0MzVhYWFhYWFhYWFhYWElN0MxJTdDMCU3QzYzNzY2MTM3 NzEyNDkwNjI0OSU3Q1Vua25vd24lN0NUV0ZwYkdac2IzZDhleUpXSWpvaU1DNHdMakF3TURBaUxD SlFJam9pVjJsdU16SWlMQ0pCVGlJNklrMWhhV3dpTENKWFZDSTZNbjAlM0QlN0MxMDAwJmFtcDtz ZGF0YT1JMkVxOE05TVA0OHRvbHVkWFJwZ242WGdnaXpVU3QyejA4b005Zk5PaTZnJTNEJmFtcDty ZXNlcnZlZD0wDQoNCg== --_000_MN2PR04MB667261021288F885B06F2C5489CF9MN2PR04MB6672namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWw+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIgY29udGVudD0i dGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4NCjxzdHlsZSB0eXBlPSJ0ZXh0L2NzcyIgc3R5bGU9 ImRpc3BsYXk6bm9uZTsiPiBQIHttYXJnaW4tdG9wOjA7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowO30gPC9zdHls ZT4NCjwvaGVhZD4NCjxib2R5IGRpcj0ibHRyIj4NCjxkaXYgc3R5bGU9ImNvbG9yOnJnYigwLDAs MCkiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJiYWNrZ3JvdW5kLWNvbG9yOnJnYigyNTUsMjU1LDI1NSk7IGRpc3Bs YXk6aW5saW5lIWltcG9ydGFudCI+PGZvbnQgZmFjZT0iQ2FsaWJyaSwgSGVsdmV0aWNhLCBzYW5z LXNlcmlmIj5UaGFua3MmbmJzcDtraW5kbHkgZm9yIHJlc3BvbnNlcy4mbmJzcDs8L2ZvbnQ+PC9z cGFuPjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdiBzdHlsZT0iY29sb3I6cmdiKDAsMCwwKSI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImJh Y2tncm91bmQtY29sb3I6cmdiKDI1NSwyNTUsMjU1KTsgZGlzcGxheTppbmxpbmUhaW1wb3J0YW50 Ij48Zm9udCBmYWNlPSJDYWxpYnJpLCBIZWx2ZXRpY2EsIHNhbnMtc2VyaWYiPjxicj4NCjwvZm9u dD48L3NwYW4+PC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2IHN0eWxlPSJjb2xvcjpyZ2IoMCwwLDApIj48c3BhbiBzdHls ZT0iYmFja2dyb3VuZC1jb2xvcjpyZ2IoMjU1LDI1NSwyNTUpOyBkaXNwbGF5OmlubGluZSFpbXBv cnRhbnQiPjxmb250IGZhY2U9IkNhbGlicmksIEhlbHZldGljYSwgc2Fucy1zZXJpZiI+Jmd0Ozwv Zm9udD48L3NwYW4+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxNC42NjY3cHg7IGJhY2tncm91bmQt Y29sb3I6cmdiKDI1NSwyNTUsMjU1KTsgZGlzcGxheTppbmxpbmUhaW1wb3J0YW50Ij4mZ3Q7DQog 77u/QWxzbywgc2hvdWxkbid0IHRoZSB1cGRhdGUgb2YgYSBiaXMgYmUgYSB0ZXI/PC9zcGFuPjwv ZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxkaXYgc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OkNhbGlicmksSGVsdmV0aWNhLHNh bnMtc2VyaWY7IGZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMnB0OyBjb2xvcjpyZ2IoMCwwLDApIj4NClBlcmhhcHMgbm90 IGFzIGltcG9ydGFudCBhcyBzaW1wbHkgZGVmaW5pbmcsIHNvbWV3aGVyZSBsb2dpY2FsIG9uIHRo ZSBJRVRGIHNpdGUsIHRoZSBtZWFuaW5nIG9mICZxdW90O2JpcyZxdW90OyBhcyB1c2VkLjwvZGl2 Pg0KPGRpdiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaSxIZWx2ZXRpY2Esc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsg Zm9udC1zaXplOjEycHQ7IGNvbG9yOnJnYigwLDAsMCkiPg0KPGJyPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2IGlk PSJTaWduYXR1cmUiPg0KPGRpdj4NCjxkaXYgc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OkNhbGlicmksSGVs dmV0aWNhLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7IGZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMnB0OyBjb2xvcjpyZ2IoMCwwLDApIj4NCkdy ZWcgTWNQaGVycmFuPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPGRpdiBp ZD0iYXBwZW5kb25zZW5kIj48L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXYgc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OkNhbGlicmks SGVsdmV0aWNhLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7IGZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMnB0OyBjb2xvcjpyZ2IoMCwwLDApIj4N Cjxicj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGhyIHRhYmluZGV4PSItMSIgc3R5bGU9ImRpc3BsYXk6aW5saW5lLWJs b2NrOyB3aWR0aDo5OCUiPg0KPGRpdiBpZD0iZGl2UnBseUZ3ZE1zZyIgZGlyPSJsdHIiPjxmb250 IGZhY2U9IkNhbGlicmksIHNhbnMtc2VyaWYiIGNvbG9yPSIjMDAwMDAwIiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1z aXplOjExcHQiPjxiPkZyb206PC9iPiBSb2JlcnQgU3BhcmtzICZsdDtyanNwYXJrc0Bub3N0cnVt LmNvbSZndDs8YnI+DQo8Yj5TZW50OjwvYj4gV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMSwgMjAyMSA4 OjAxIFBNPGJyPg0KPGI+VG86PC9iPiBNYXJjIFBldGl0LUh1Z3VlbmluICZsdDttYXJjQHBldGl0 LWh1Z3VlbmluLm9yZyZndDs8YnI+DQo8Yj5DYzo8L2I+IEJyaWFuIEUgQ2FycGVudGVyICZsdDti cmlhbi5lLmNhcnBlbnRlckBnbWFpbC5jb20mZ3Q7OyBDYXJzdGVuIEJvcm1hbm4gJmx0O2NhYm9A dHppLm9yZyZndDs7IGdtY3BoZXJyYW5Ab3V0bG9vay5jb20gJmx0O2dtY3BoZXJyYW5Ab3V0bG9v ay5jb20mZ3Q7OyB0b29scy1kaXNjdXNzICZsdDt0b29scy1kaXNjdXNzQGlldGYub3JnJmd0Ozxi cj4NCjxiPlN1YmplY3Q6PC9iPiBSZTogW1Rvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3NdIFtkamFuZ28tcHJvamVjdF0g JnF1b3Q7YmlzJnF1b3Q7IGluIEhUVFAmcXVvdDtiaXMmcXVvdDs8L2ZvbnQ+DQo8ZGl2PiZuYnNw OzwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJCb2R5RnJhZ21lbnQiPjxmb250IHNpemU9IjIi PjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTFwdCI+DQo8ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJQbGFpblRleHQiPlRo aXMgaXMgdGhlIHVwZGF0ZXMgY29udmVyc2F0aW9uIHdlYXJpbmcgYSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgc2tpbi4N Cjxicj4NCjxicj4NClNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBpUGhvbmU8YnI+DQo8YnI+DQomZ3Q7IE9uIFNlcCAx LCAyMDIxLCBhdCA2OjM1IFBNLCBNYXJjIFBldGl0LUh1Z3VlbmluICZsdDttYXJjQHBldGl0LWh1 Z3VlbmluLm9yZyZndDsgd3JvdGU6PGJyPg0KJmd0OyA8YnI+DQomZ3Q7IO+7v0Fsc28sIHNob3Vs ZG4ndCB0aGUgdXBkYXRlIG9mIGEgYmlzIGJlIGEgdGVyPyZuYnNwOyBTbyB0aGUgZHJhZnQgdGhh dCBwcmVjZWRlZCBSRkMgODQ4OSBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHJmYzUzODl0ZXIsIGJ1dCB0aGF0 IHN0aWxsIGRvZXMgbm90IHNlZW0gcmlnaHQuJm5ic3A7IHJmYzM0ODl0ZXI/PGJyPg0KJmd0OyA8 YnI+DQomZ3Q7IE9uIDkvMS8yMSA0OjIwIFBNLCBCcmlhbiBFIENhcnBlbnRlciB3cm90ZTo8YnI+ DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsgKE5vdCBxdWl0ZSBpbnRlcm5ldC1oaXN0b3J5IG1hdGVyaWFsLCBidXQg d2UgbWlnaHQgd2FudCB0byBhc2sgdGhlcmUgYW55d2F5Lik8YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyBUaGUgb2xk ZXN0IHJlbGV2YW50IGVtYWlsIEkgaGF2ZSBpcyBkYXRlZCAyNSBNYXkgMTk5NCB3aXRoIHN1Ympl Y3QgJnF1b3Q7UmU6IDE2MDJiaXMgcmVhZHkgZm9yIHJldmlldyZxdW90Oywgc2VudCB0byBMeW1h biBDaGFwaW4sIHdobyBpbmRlZWQgYWxzbyBrbmV3IGhvdyB0aGUgQ0NJVFQgZGlkIHRoaW5ncy4g U28gZGVzcGl0ZSB0aGUgYXN0b25pc2htZW50IGluIHRoYXQgU3RhY2tPdmVyZmxvdyBkZWJhdGUs IHRoaXMgaXMgbm90IGV4YWN0bHkgbmV3IHRlcm1pbm9sb2d5Ljxicj4NCiZndDsmZ3Q7IEFsc28s IDxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHBzOi8vbmEwMS5zYWZlbGlua3MucHJvdGVjdGlvbi5vdXRsb29rLmNvbS8/ dXJsPWh0dHBzJTNBJTJGJTJGd3d3Lm1lcnJpYW0td2Vic3Rlci5jb20lMkZkaWN0aW9uYXJ5JTJG YmlzJmFtcDthbXA7ZGF0YT0wNCU3QzAxJTdDJTdDMmJkOGZjZWUzODQwNGRjYTQ1YjIwOGQ5NmRh NGRjNGElN0M4NGRmOWU3ZmU5ZjY0MGFmYjQzNWFhYWFhYWFhYWFhYSU3QzElN0MwJTdDNjM3NjYx Mzc3MTI0OTAxMjcxJTdDVW5rbm93biU3Q1RXRnBiR1pzYjNkOGV5SldJam9pTUM0d0xqQXdNREFp TENKUUlqb2lWMmx1TXpJaUxDSkJUaUk2SWsxaGFXd2lMQ0pYVkNJNk1uMCUzRCU3QzEwMDAmYW1w O2FtcDtzZGF0YT1GdERuMER3TElmaDdYazZNeldSaDl6OFBEZUNJRE50Wk1vT1RzT00xa1FJJTNE JmFtcDthbXA7cmVzZXJ2ZWQ9MCI+DQpodHRwczovL25hMDEuc2FmZWxpbmtzLnByb3RlY3Rpb24u b3V0bG9vay5jb20vP3VybD1odHRwcyUzQSUyRiUyRnd3dy5tZXJyaWFtLXdlYnN0ZXIuY29tJTJG ZGljdGlvbmFyeSUyRmJpcyZhbXA7YW1wO2RhdGE9MDQlN0MwMSU3QyU3QzJiZDhmY2VlMzg0MDRk Y2E0NWIyMDhkOTZkYTRkYzRhJTdDODRkZjllN2ZlOWY2NDBhZmI0MzVhYWFhYWFhYWFhYWElN0Mx JTdDMCU3QzYzNzY2MTM3NzEyNDkwMTI3MSU3Q1Vua25vd24lN0NUV0ZwYkdac2IzZDhleUpXSWpv aU1DNHdMakF3TURBaUxDSlFJam9pVjJsdU16SWlMQ0pCVGlJNklrMWhhV3dpTENKWFZDSTZNbjAl M0QlN0MxMDAwJmFtcDthbXA7c2RhdGE9RnREbjBEd0xJZmg3WGs2TXpXUmg5ejhQRGVDSUROdFpN b09Uc09NMWtRSSUzRCZhbXA7YW1wO3Jlc2VydmVkPTA8L2E+DQogLiBEb2VzIHRoZSBJRVRGIHdl YiBzaXRlIHJlYWxseSBuZWVkIHRvIHJlcGxhY2UgYSBkaWN0aW9uYXJ5Pzxicj4NCiZndDsmZ3Q7 IFJlZ2FyZHM8YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyBCcmlhbiBDYXJwZW50ZXI8 YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyBPbiAwMi1TZXAtMjEgMDg6NDMsIENhcnN0ZW4gQm9ybWFubiB3cm90ZTo8 YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsgTm90IHN1cmUgdGhpcyBiZWxvbmdzIG9uIHRvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3Ms IGJ1dCB0aGlzIGlzIGluZGVlZCBhbiBJRVRGIGlkaW9zeW5jcmFzeSB0aGF0IG9uZSBuZWVkcyB0 byBsZWFybiBhYm91dC48YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsgPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7IElmIHdl IGFyZSBub3QgdGFsa2luZyBhYm91dCBVUyBleHBvcnQgY29udHJvbHMsIOKAnGJpc+KAnSBpcyB1 c2VkIGluIGhvdXNlIG51bWJlcmluZyBpbiBSb21hbmNlIGxhbmd1YWdlcyB0aGUgc2FtZSB3YXkg REUgb3IgRU4gd291bGQgdXNlIOKAnGHigJ0uPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7IFNvIGlmIHlvdSBi dWlsZCBhIGhvdXNlIGJldHdlZW4gMyBhbmQgNCwgaXQgZ2V0cyDigJwzYSZxdW90OyBpbiBHZXJt YW55IGFuZCAmcXVvdDszIGJpcyZxdW90OyBpbiBGcmFuY2UuPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7IDxi cj4NCiZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyBJbiBDQ0lUVCAobm93IElUVS1UKSBzdGFuZGFyZHMgKOKAnHJlY29t bWVuZGF0aW9uc+KAnSksIGJpcywgdGVyLCBldGMuIGlzIHVzZWQgZm9yIGRvY3VtZW50cyB0aGF0 IGFyZSByZWxhdGVkIHRvIGFuIGVhcmxpZXIgb25lLCBlLmcuIFYuNDIgaXMgbW9kZW0gZXJyb3Ig Y29udHJvbCwgYW5kIFYuNDJiaXMgYWRkcyBjb21wcmVzc2lvbiB0byB0aGF0Ljxicj4NCiZndDsm Z3Q7Jmd0OyA8YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsgQnVpbGRpbmcgYSDigJwzIGJpc+KAnSBob3VzZSBk b2VzbuKAmXQgbWVhbiB5b3UgZGVtb2xpc2gg4oCcM+KAnTsgVi40MmJpcyBpcyBub3QgYSByZXBs YWNlbWVudCBmb3IgVi40Mi48YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsgPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7IEhv dyDigJxiaXPigJ0gZ290IHRoZSBpZGlvc3luY3JhdGljIOKAnHJlcGxhY2VtZW50IHZlcnNpb24g b2bigJ0gbWVhbmluZyBpbiBJRVRGIGlzIHVua25vd24gdG8gbWU7IEkgc3VzcGVjdCB0aGF0IHdh cyBzaW1wbHkgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIG1pbWljIChhbmQgbW9jaywgYWxsIHRoZSB3aGlsZSBtaXN1bmRl cnN0YW5kaW5nKSBDQ0lUVCBoYWJpdC48YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsgPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsm Z3Q7IChOb3QgcXVpdGUgaW50ZXJuZXQtaGlzdG9yeSBtYXRlcmlhbCwgYnV0IHdlIG1pZ2h0IHdh bnQgdG8gYXNrIHRoZXJlIGFueXdheS4pPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7IDxicj4NCiZndDsmZ3Q7 Jmd0OyBHcsO8w59lLCBDYXJzdGVuPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7IDxicj4NCiZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0 OyA8YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7IE9uIDEuIFNlcCAyMDIxLCBhdCAxODo1NCwgUm9iZXJ0 IFNwYXJrcyAmbHQ7cmpzcGFya3NAbm9zdHJ1bS5jb20mZ3Q7IHdyb3RlOjxicj4NCiZndDsmZ3Q7 Jmd0OyZndDsgPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyBNb3ZpbmcgdGhpcyB0byB0b29scy1kaXNj dXNzLjxicj4NCiZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsgPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyA8YnI+DQom Z3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7IC0tLS0tLS0tIEZvcndhcmRlZCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tLS0tPGJyPg0K Jmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyBTdWJqZWN0OiZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyBbZGphbmdvLXByb2pl Y3RdICZxdW90O2JpcyZxdW90OyBpbiBIVFRQJnF1b3Q7YmlzJnF1b3Q7PGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsm Z3Q7Jmd0OyBEYXRlOiZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyBNb24sIDMwIEF1ZyAyMDIxIDIyOjM5OjI5 ICswMDAwPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyBGcm9tOiZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyBHcmVn IE0gJmx0O0dNY1BoZXJyYW5Ab3V0bG9vay5jb20mZ3Q7PGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyBU bzombmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsgZGF0YXRyYWNrZXItcHJvamVjdEBpZXRmLm9yZyAmbHQ7ZGF0 YXRyYWNrZXItcHJvamVjdEBpZXRmLm9yZyZndDs8YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7IDxicj4N CiZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsgPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyBIaSwgdGhvc2Ugd2hvIHJl YWQgdGhlc2Ugc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbnMgYWxyZWFkeSBrbm93IHRvIGV4cGVjdCBkZXRhaWxlZCBh bmQgZHJ5IGRvY3VtZW50cywgc28gcHJlc2VudGluZyB0aGVtIHJpZ2h0IG9mZiB0aGUgYmF0IHdp dGggYW4gb2JzY3VyZTxicj4NCiZndDsmZ3Q7IHRlcm0gJnF1b3Q7YmlzJnF1b3Q7IGlzIG5vdCBo ZWxwZnVsLiA6LSkgQSBzZWFyY2ggb24gSUVURiBzaG93cyBubyBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBvZiAmcXVv dDtiaXMmcXVvdDsgc28geW91IHdvdWxkIGRvIHdlbGwgdG8gcHJvdmlkZSBhIG5vdGUgYWJvdXQg JnF1b3Q7YmlzJnF1b3Q7IG1lYW5pbmcgZS5nLiBpbiB0aGUgJnF1b3Q7QWJvdXQmcXVvdDsgcGFn ZS48YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7IDxicj4NCiZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsgRXhhbXBsZSBv ZiBwdWJsaWMgJnF1b3Q7YmlzJnF1b3Q7IGNvbmZ1c2lvbjo8YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7 IGh0dHAgLSBIVFRQYmlzIC0gd2hhdCBkb2VzIGJpcyBtZWFuPyAtIFN0YWNrIE92ZXJmbG93PGJy Pg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyA8YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7IFRoYW5rIFlvdSBmb3Ig dGhlIHdvcmsgdGhhdCB5b3UgZG8uPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyA8YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0 OyZndDsmZ3Q7IEdyZWcgTWNQaGVycmFuPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7Jmd0OyBTaXRld2FyZS5v cmc8YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyZndDsmZ3Q7IDxicj4NCiZndDsgPGJyPg0KJmd0OyA8YnI+DQomZ3Q7 IDxicj4NCiZndDsgLS0gPGJyPg0KJmd0OyBNYXJjIFBldGl0LUh1Z3VlbmluPGJyPg0KJmd0OyBF bWFpbDogbWFyY0BwZXRpdC1odWd1ZW5pbi5vcmc8YnI+DQomZ3Q7IEJsb2c6IDxhIGhyZWY9Imh0 dHBzOi8vbmEwMS5zYWZlbGlua3MucHJvdGVjdGlvbi5vdXRsb29rLmNvbS8/dXJsPWh0dHBzJTNB JTJGJTJGbWFyYy5wZXRpdC1odWd1ZW5pbi5vcmclMkYmYW1wO2FtcDtkYXRhPTA0JTdDMDElN0Ml N0MyYmQ4ZmNlZTM4NDA0ZGNhNDViMjA4ZDk2ZGE0ZGM0YSU3Qzg0ZGY5ZTdmZTlmNjQwYWZiNDM1 YWFhYWFhYWFhYWFhJTdDMSU3QzAlN0M2Mzc2NjEzNzcxMjQ5MDYyNDklN0NVbmtub3duJTdDVFdG cGJHWnNiM2Q4ZXlKV0lqb2lNQzR3TGpBd01EQWlMQ0pRSWpvaVYybHVNeklpTENKQlRpSTZJazFo YVd3aUxDSlhWQ0k2TW4wJTNEJTdDMTAwMCZhbXA7YW1wO3NkYXRhPVI2RzVJJTJGMFE2c3J6b1N6 Y0hXVXhLMTA0V3pwRzVkdU9jJTJCaU9XZ1U0MTNZJTNEJmFtcDthbXA7cmVzZXJ2ZWQ9MCI+DQpo dHRwczovL25hMDEuc2FmZWxpbmtzLnByb3RlY3Rpb24ub3V0bG9vay5jb20vP3VybD1odHRwcyUz QSUyRiUyRm1hcmMucGV0aXQtaHVndWVuaW4ub3JnJTJGJmFtcDthbXA7ZGF0YT0wNCU3QzAxJTdD JTdDMmJkOGZjZWUzODQwNGRjYTQ1YjIwOGQ5NmRhNGRjNGElN0M4NGRmOWU3ZmU5ZjY0MGFmYjQz NWFhYWFhYWFhYWFhYSU3QzElN0MwJTdDNjM3NjYxMzc3MTI0OTA2MjQ5JTdDVW5rbm93biU3Q1RX RnBiR1pzYjNkOGV5SldJam9pTUM0d0xqQXdNREFpTENKUUlqb2lWMmx1TXpJaUxDSkJUaUk2SWsx aGFXd2lMQ0pYVkNJNk1uMCUzRCU3QzEwMDAmYW1wO2FtcDtzZGF0YT1SNkc1SSUyRjBRNnNyem9T emNIV1V4SzEwNFd6cEc1ZHVPYyUyQmlPV2dVNDEzWSUzRCZhbXA7YW1wO3Jlc2VydmVkPTA8L2E+ PGJyPg0KJmd0OyBQcm9maWxlOiA8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczovL25hMDEuc2FmZWxpbmtzLnByb3Rl Y3Rpb24ub3V0bG9vay5jb20vP3VybD1odHRwcyUzQSUyRiUyRnd3dy5saW5rZWRpbi5jb20lMkZp biUyRnBldGl0aHVnJmFtcDthbXA7ZGF0YT0wNCU3QzAxJTdDJTdDMmJkOGZjZWUzODQwNGRjYTQ1 YjIwOGQ5NmRhNGRjNGElN0M4NGRmOWU3ZmU5ZjY0MGFmYjQzNWFhYWFhYWFhYWFhYSU3QzElN0Mw JTdDNjM3NjYxMzc3MTI0OTA2MjQ5JTdDVW5rbm93biU3Q1RXRnBiR1pzYjNkOGV5SldJam9pTUM0 d0xqQXdNREFpTENKUUlqb2lWMmx1TXpJaUxDSkJUaUk2SWsxaGFXd2lMQ0pYVkNJNk1uMCUzRCU3 QzEwMDAmYW1wO2FtcDtzZGF0YT1JMkVxOE05TVA0OHRvbHVkWFJwZ242WGdnaXpVU3QyejA4b005 Zk5PaTZnJTNEJmFtcDthbXA7cmVzZXJ2ZWQ9MCI+DQpodHRwczovL25hMDEuc2FmZWxpbmtzLnBy b3RlY3Rpb24ub3V0bG9vay5jb20vP3VybD1odHRwcyUzQSUyRiUyRnd3dy5saW5rZWRpbi5jb20l MkZpbiUyRnBldGl0aHVnJmFtcDthbXA7ZGF0YT0wNCU3QzAxJTdDJTdDMmJkOGZjZWUzODQwNGRj YTQ1YjIwOGQ5NmRhNGRjNGElN0M4NGRmOWU3ZmU5ZjY0MGFmYjQzNWFhYWFhYWFhYWFhYSU3QzEl N0MwJTdDNjM3NjYxMzc3MTI0OTA2MjQ5JTdDVW5rbm93biU3Q1RXRnBiR1pzYjNkOGV5SldJam9p TUM0d0xqQXdNREFpTENKUUlqb2lWMmx1TXpJaUxDSkJUaUk2SWsxaGFXd2lMQ0pYVkNJNk1uMCUz RCU3QzEwMDAmYW1wO2FtcDtzZGF0YT1JMkVxOE05TVA0OHRvbHVkWFJwZ242WGdnaXpVU3QyejA4 b005Zk5PaTZnJTNEJmFtcDthbXA7cmVzZXJ2ZWQ9MDwvYT48YnI+DQo8YnI+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwv c3Bhbj48L2ZvbnQ+PC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_MN2PR04MB667261021288F885B06F2C5489CF9MN2PR04MB6672namp_-- From nobody Fri Sep 3 14:18:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B91253A2F32; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 14:18:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zkl3fRDfDpi2; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 14:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 793603A2F31; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 14:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05FAF548015; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:18:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id E08754400EF; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:18:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:18:08 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tom Pusateri Cc: ietf-privacy@ietf.org, Tools Discussion Message-ID: <20210903211808.GD24866@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20210827145339.GS50345@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20210827145339.GS50345@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Upcoming end of support for the IETFers app X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 21:18:27 -0000 Darn, messed up joke by typo, correct: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4041.txt Section 2.2 On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 04:53:39PM +0200, Toerless Eckert wrote: > To close on a lighter note: I was yesterday just randomnly stumbling across > RFC4101 again and found particularily section 2.2 to be strikingly current. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 09:16:28PM -0400, Tom Pusateri wrote: > > FYI, > > > > Given the change of position with Apple’s privacy directions, I no longer wish to continue development of the IETFers app on Apple platforms. After their strong privacy stance for many years, this feels like a betrayal to me. > > > > I understand that some will think this is overblown or that maybe I want inappropriate material on my device. I can assure you that this is not the case. I detest the exploitation of minors and adults on the internet. > > > > But a technology that is developed for service A will eventually be used for services B & C & D. Services B & C & D may not be made public but they will exist and Apple has shown their willingness to cross the line in public which makes me think they probably have already crossed the line in private too. But I don’t mean to drag anyone else into this part of the discussion or convince anyone about my beliefs. That is not the point of this note. Please don’t try to argue with me that what Apple is doing is ok. > > > > The IETFers app will continue to work for future meetings as long as nothing in the API changes on which it depends. I have no control over that and I won’t go digging through the source code to try and figure out what busted. > > > > I am aware of another timezone bug that surfaced during this last online meeting. I plan to fix this bug and make one last dot release before the next meeting. > > > > I wanted to make this decision public so other plans can be made if needed. This is the real purpose of this note. > > > > The next obvious question is will I be working on an Android version instead? I will answer this by saying the privacy problems on Android platforms are far worse. > > > > For a stroll down memory lane, the IETFers app was first released 10 years ago in July, 2011. It was a fun project and I hope people benefited from it (and continue to do so). I’ll continue to hang out on this list and contribute where I can but just not on the Apple app. > > > > Thanks, > > Tom > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Sep 3 15:11:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864583A30D2 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 15:11:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PWLf2YJdOvhS for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 15:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:45:216:3eff:fe7f:7abd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E68E93A30D0 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 15:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd] (unknown [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F69EAE536; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 00:11:43 +0200 (CEST) To: Greg M , Robert Sparks Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss References: From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 15:11:40 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 22:11:55 -0000 On 9/3/21 11:57 AM, Greg M wrote: > Thanks kindly for responses. > >>> Also, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? > Perhaps not as important as simply defining, somewhere logical on the IETF site, the meaning of "bis" as used. https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tao-discuss > > Greg McPherran > > ________________________________ > From: Robert Sparks > Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:01 PM > To: Marc Petit-Huguenin > Cc: Brian E Carpenter ; Carsten Bormann ; gmcpherran@outlook.com ; tools-discuss > Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" > > This is the updates conversation wearing a different skin. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:35 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >> >> Also, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? So the draft that preceded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still does not seem right. rfc3489ter? >> >> On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there anyway.) >>> The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "Re: 1602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew how the CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow debate, this is not exactly new terminology. >>> Also, https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.merriam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fbis&data=04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124901271%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=FtDn0DwLIfh7Xk6MzWRh9z8PDeCIDNtZMoOTsOM1kQI%3D&reserved=0 . Does the IETF web site really need to replace a dictionary? >>> Regards >>> Brian Carpenter >>> On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF idiosyncrasy that one needs to learn about. >>>> >>>> If we are not talking about US export controls, “bis†is used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN would use “aâ€. >>>> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets “3a" in Germany and "3 bis" in France. >>>> >>>> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (“recommendationsâ€), bis, ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g. V.42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. >>>> >>>> Building a “3 bis†house doesn’t mean you demolish “3â€; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. >>>> >>>> How “bis†got the idiosyncratic “replacement version of†meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was simply trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT habit. >>>> >>>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there anyway.) >>>> >>>> Grüße, Carsten >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Moving this to tools-discuss. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >>>>> Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" >>>>> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 >>>>> From: Greg M >>>>> To: datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure >>> term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in the "About" page. >>>>> >>>>> Example of public "bis" confusion: >>>>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow >>>>> >>>>> Thank You for the work that you do. >>>>> >>>>> Greg McPherran >>>>> Siteware.org >>>>> >> >> >> -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Fri Sep 3 20:26:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F2553A1589 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:26:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=sU6uObhR; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=R5yV+sHq Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AUoMUhXbKTZx for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 599393A1587 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 71552 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2021 03:26:37 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=1177d.6132e76d.k2109; bh=xXV4s/uQ42vU8/Mbvs76ZpkdfihFJd8hyT4YaHS3qlw=; b=sU6uObhR5/LOQtTAd1cjlnYsbLJB9aHlMEzdE3GM9bW1FUvvYqeCHu0utWoNxDdfLj6QFOsFoIvihjP+DvgCMbZ0+D+6jY2sonmbOGl3XBYdgVyLBZ/rqgyY83Y69PwAYGAmhgLMPPvGWxRGyZS7XrnH2GUxnvZ0+Q4ng1TQopp0uw01xc/ZMJ+IpYSO3UiHgn4fmOyK+1T1oDvbS18fFcCsMkCUL6CEfEXOSgEEo8KJ0ylINGk2u3BqPrsCW9OPIfPY3KIe2ITerElJKN0pz/0vhMH7CpC/RT4yozmqX8WOKReuM2I9KO6F7WFL3jgOtcHwyYx3nyRO0QLkBQYLuA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=1177d.6132e76d.k2109; bh=xXV4s/uQ42vU8/Mbvs76ZpkdfihFJd8hyT4YaHS3qlw=; b=R5yV+sHqmIMemX1CVyqWST7Oqqs6kby7YAKRKPesNwo98gxLx/DW6oe4pR5HW3hsrhhMe7k19aLPWT9GPBvQUblEjO2qXDATzgYBib/LVkVzC2yqQObgo+395gwxxTePnSaxzNZAMy95XJ3mpN3h8Amo68k+DMyEp0zfZkb8zmLr9YbrQece1jnk1/+jBVtNwJCS8wPci8Tq/GDIAcPiZDnbzADTKTKT++UVhmBgjd8qSa7HNPooEfC6GJqDEVWTmI7W3f7h/qq8KKxWIZ6XHGlTEQSIuiJDX2V41dMa7+RGOF5edWLgAh57pRIQYYQjxlf7aULHeNqJwC2Mf6sAUw== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 04 Sep 2021 03:26:37 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id C8249276564E; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:26:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: 3 Sep 2021 23:26:36 -0400 Message-Id: <20210904032636.C8249276564E@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] The Tao explains "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 03:26:47 -0000 It appears that Marc Petit-Huguenin said: >> Perhaps not as important as simply defining, somewhere logical on the IETF site, the meaning of "bis" as used. https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tao/ Section 6.3 says: There are some informal rules for Internet-Draft naming that have evolved over the years. Internet-Drafts that revise existing RFCs often have draft names with "bis" in them, meaning "again" or "twice"; for example, a draft might be called "draft-someone-rfc2345bis-00.txt". From nobody Fri Sep 3 22:46:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5693A1A7A for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:46:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ixe74x29PowM for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CFCC3A1A7C for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51AA246FDBEB; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q8fhk4--77Mb; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 93D2946FDBE5; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-950D360F-2429-46DF-8B52-F47A6E43C311 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Cc: Robert Sparks , Marc Petit-Huguenin , Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:45:44 +1200 Message-Id: <0859FB3B-6893-4867-813C-87A3C14F6D4D@ietf.org> References: To: Greg M X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18G82) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 05:46:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail-950D360F-2429-46DF-8B52-F47A6E43C311 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 4/09/2021, at 7:09 AM, Greg M wrote: > =EF=BB=BF > Thanks kindly for responses.=20 >=20 > >> =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? > Perhaps not as important as simply defining, somewhere logical on the IETF= site, the meaning of "bis" as used. Easy enough to do. We will look at it this week. =20 Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director=20 exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > Greg McPherran >=20 > From: Robert Sparks > Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:01 PM > To: Marc Petit-Huguenin > Cc: Brian E Carpenter ; Carsten Bormann ; gmcpherran@outlook.com ; tools-discuss > Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" > =20 > This is the updates conversation wearing a different skin.=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > > On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:35 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: > >=20 > > =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? So the draft tha= t preceded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still does not see= m right. rfc3489ter? > >=20 > > On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there a= nyway.) > >> The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "Re:= 1602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew how t= he CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow debat= e, this is not exactly new terminology. > >> Also, https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%= 2Fwww.merriam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fbis&data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fce= e38404dca45b208d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63766= 1377124901271%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLC= JBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DFtDn0DwLIfh7Xk6MzWRh9z8PDeCI= DNtZMoOTsOM1kQI%3D&reserved=3D0 . Does the IETF web site really need to r= eplace a dictionary? > >> Regards > >> Brian Carpenter > >> On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >>> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF idi= osyncrasy that one needs to learn about. > >>>=20 > >>> If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D i= s used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN would u= se =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D. > >>> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a" in Germa= ny and "3 bis" in France. > >>>=20 > >>> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D), bi= s, ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g. V= .42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. > >>>=20 > >>> Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean you demo= lish =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. > >>>=20 > >>> How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Creplacement v= ersion of=E2=80=9D meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was simp= ly trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT habit. > >>>=20 > >>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there a= nyway.) > >>>=20 > >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote:= > >>>>=20 > >>>> Moving this to tools-discuss. > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- > >>>> Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" > >>>> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 > >>>> From: Greg M > >>>> To: datatracker-project@ietf.org > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detail= ed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure > >> term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of= "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in th= e "About" page. > >>>>=20 > >>>> Example of public "bis" confusion: > >>>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow > >>>>=20 > >>>> Thank You for the work that you do. > >>>>=20 > >>>> Greg McPherran > >>>> Siteware.org > >>>>=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > Marc Petit-Huguenin > > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2= Fmarc.petit-huguenin.org%2F&data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d9= 6da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%7CU= nknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ= XVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DR6G5I%2F0Q6srzoSzcHWUxK104WzpG5duOc%2BiOWgU41= 3Y%3D&reserved=3D0 > > Profile: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2= F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fpetithug&data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dc= a45b208d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6376613771249= 06249%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik= 1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DI2Eq8M9MP48toludXRpgn6XggizUSt2z08oM= 9fNOi6g%3D&reserved=3D0 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org= > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/tools-discuss --Apple-Mail-950D360F-2429-46DF-8B52-F47A6E43C311 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


<= blockquote type=3D"cite">On 4/09/2021, at 7:09 AM, Greg M <GMcPherran@out= look.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
> =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter?
Perhaps not as important as simply defining, somewhere logical on the IETF s= ite, the meaning of "bis" as used.

Easy enough to do.  We will look at it this week.  = ;

Jay

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive D= irector 
exec-director@ietf.org


Greg McPherran

From: Robert Sparks <rjspa= rks@nostrum.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:01 PM
To: Marc Petit-Huguenin <marc@petit-huguenin.org>
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Carsten Bo= rmann <cabo@tzi.org>; gmcpherran@outlook.com <gmcpherran@outlook.co= m>; tools-discuss <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis"
 
=
This is the updates conversation wearing a differen= t skin.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:35 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin <marc@petit-huguenin= .org> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter?  So the dra= ft that preceded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still does n= ot seem right.  rfc3489ter?
>
> On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask t= here anyway.)
>> The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "= Re: 1602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew ho= w the CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow de= bate, this is not exactly new terminology.
>> Also, https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.merri= am-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fbis&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404d= ca45b208d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124= 901271%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I= k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DFtDn0DwLIfh7Xk6MzWRh9z8PDeCIDNt= ZMoOTsOM1kQI%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 . Does the IETF web site really need to replace a dictionary?
>> Regards
>>    Brian Carpenter
>> On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an I= ETF idiosyncrasy that one needs to learn about.
>>>
>>> If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis=E2= =80=9D is used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN= would use =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D.
>>> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a" i= n Germany and "3 bis" in France.
>>>
>>> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D= ), bis, ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e= .g. V.42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that.
>>>
>>> Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean y= ou demolish =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42.
>>>
>>> How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Creplac= ement version of=E2=80=9D meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that w= as simply trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT h= abit.
>>>
>>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask t= here anyway.)
>>>
>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostru= m.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Moving this to tools-discuss.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>> Subject:    [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"b= is"
>>>> Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000
= >>>> From:    Greg M <GMcPherran@outlook.com&g= t;
>>>> To:    datatracker-project@ietf.org <data= tracker-project@ietf.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to exp= ect detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an= obscure
>> term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanatio= n of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. i= n the "About" page.
>>>>
>>>> Example of public "bis" confusion:
>>>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow
>>>>
>>>> Thank You for the work that you do.
>>>>
>>>> Greg McPherran
>>>> Siteware.org
>>>>
>
>
>
> --
> Marc Petit-Huguenin
> Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fmarc.peti= t-huguenin.org%2F&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d96da4dc= 4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%7CUnknown= %7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6M= n0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DR6G5I%2F0Q6srzoSzcHWUxK104WzpG5duOc%2BiOWgU413Y= %3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> Profile: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.linke= din.com%2Fin%2Fpetithug&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d9= 6da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%7CU= nknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ= XVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DI2Eq8M9MP48toludXRpgn6XggizUSt2z08oM9fNOi= 6g%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

___________________________________________________________
= Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
Th= is list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@iet= f.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.= org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.o= rg
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
= --Apple-Mail-950D360F-2429-46DF-8B52-F47A6E43C311-- From nobody Sat Sep 4 09:23:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132DF3A1BF0 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 09:23:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FIFzhNYfSA71 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 09:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E58B3A1C01 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 09:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H20Ml0hXfz2xZr; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 18:23:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652465410.595134-1fc47b9677b097432c27db27f8c94f7e Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 18:23:30 +0200 Message-Id: <3D2C4DEE-2991-4539-B011-B1FFEE4530BE@tzi.org> To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Mining WG notes X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 16:23:43 -0000 In an AD review, a simple question came up: =E2=80=9CHas the WG discussed X?=E2=80=9D=20 Unfortunately, none of us remembers, because X seems to come up so often = for different documents that it is hard to keep these discussions apart. Theoretically, I should be able to find the answer from the notes of the = various WG meetings (at an IETF meeting or as an interim). How do I do = this? Of course, I could manually fetch the minutes of approximately 36 = meetings (plus some safety) that have happened since we started the = discussion of this document, and then start to apply some laptop-local = searching on these. Is there an rsync target I could use to get those = (all?) minutes? https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/past is almost useful as a starting = point, except that it points to meeting materials and not proceedings = (and then there is the notorious difficulty of extracting the current = version of the notes), except for IETF meetings, where one has to click = through the meeting agenda to find the CoRE meetings. The mailing list = is sometimes useful, but does not contain (the final version of) the = meeting minutes. There must be a better way to do this. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Sep 4 10:30:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D47C3A1042 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:29:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s9puO2NhkMl9 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A5E03A103F for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 184HTpS1018246 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 12:29:52 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1630776592; bh=QP3UI+cBUhB6Wa8N1zIdzcKGZD2J68cxDtcolsNIWQ8=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Cq0O+kaDkP7k478AZhObgLT7BCM2N3EOX+2bzrY+6nD0xvimKYKwvmF7REoz67EaD yTCyc76+nPGmkGt1lsUzswsuzV0KLu0/C+mMSRZhAtfE6E2pqXWe7srUVT5c7a5ouS D7XV08Gq1zx3thGdbPR728ApO3+JqHfqAflIR/VA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3D2C4DEE-2991-4539-B011-B1FFEE4530BE@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <707d3f74-9f5e-5055-550e-247ea0c0210b@nostrum.com> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 12:29:46 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3D2C4DEE-2991-4539-B011-B1FFEE4530BE@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mining WG notes X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 17:30:00 -0000 It's a bit of soup. You can use the api to strategically identify the minutes you want to find and pull the files. The rsync endpoint you are looking for is at rsync.ietf.org::proceedings You might find things like rsync.ietf.org::proceedings/111/minutes/ useful. As you see, the files are in many, many formats, including pdf. The hunt will not necessarily be as easy as grep. I wonder if we're close to the point where we can say "Keep your agendas and minutes going forward in markdown"? RjS On 9/4/21 11:23 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > In an AD review, a simple question came up: > “Has the WG discussed X?†> > Unfortunately, none of us remembers, because X seems to come up so often for different documents that it is hard to keep these discussions apart. > > Theoretically, I should be able to find the answer from the notes of the various WG meetings (at an IETF meeting or as an interim). How do I do this? > Of course, I could manually fetch the minutes of approximately 36 meetings (plus some safety) that have happened since we started the discussion of this document, and then start to apply some laptop-local searching on these. Is there an rsync target I could use to get those (all?) minutes? > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/past is almost useful as a starting point, except that it points to meeting materials and not proceedings (and then there is the notorious difficulty of extracting the current version of the notes), except for IETF meetings, where one has to click through the meeting agenda to find the CoRE meetings. The mailing list is sometimes useful, but does not contain (the final version of) the meeting minutes. > > There must be a better way to do this. > > Grüße, Carsten > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Sat Sep 4 10:36:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 010133A1E13 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:36:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fNhy7yyJ7IWF for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75E5C3A1E0F for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id bq28so4820188lfb.7 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 10:36:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Nwajx9SRx88Gmh4xWp0+Y1dmJcnWS1eHDK/YV1h4CKE=; b=bdP0O75QHdrVwtpxiGMcCVqPvZB5YZ80Q9l5oTZX0hGOSGggu7Pr7xBsYxFj0tCFe9 LTZJd08lSbsHpPabp89Dq5wGJtv8DOmgBdyucqD0bXGoW49cnPynw3yVe1ZR8Z+vKCDO iaBZahhbZeWgeUWeECH2naZqIu4Po6tQSYcN8b4pWPQW5V6I8TRo95nRyMFPgVVVU2ve fHnx9lmQz7RoruG7U07E1kl9AoLxwrN5owccfyu2kSCub/qtMBRKy5fdwGMCtmWMHbnr AbCmyUJ1V4N4Cf7qs1osfjfbL+KLufDfkd3hiDDa/YPvEs2kLQPgSlGVlcFcs8k9s/Oo rCQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Nwajx9SRx88Gmh4xWp0+Y1dmJcnWS1eHDK/YV1h4CKE=; b=MoqSEJ+idozk31Hbz2WyB73TjSsJbKG/M0KeTH82yO66Izaeq5ByWuRh20fw4MooGS jgs4x9Yg6o7IrRV1Mvm6fjhLMoi5U30fgonnthS9sSShyuWl7U8s0TXup38zH07xf0oW DV9CACawdvNK2TN4SyxxQe3PyuuTXNVts4pMr+rx6fX+P2rX7xEtfOqvmc0Nyu557Pbe JMHbI2bLOOd4riVc3xX9lAg2J/VxLviDOkxbLadjvBP74olL0sWfqo1RDqX+xQhA6NFk bYTJpfDw/4xO2zlei0ciChcAXErhzE/2++EWd9wflCj3i4z3pc+bBZjKX4R2Gm+u2rDw aD4w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531aPx5jO1stWMDH/roKMP6LILROsTCymDN+HiEV+PhSi2s/cuHF WilPWi5mijkz8XQtgUAJOh+YF2NyCeF7fNIiVHOEx1/nKbc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+5L+y5Y+q0F0rE4JjK4KMFVEWQJ1w/QsljYgCPhOCWqMKYnajZRpRpfC5OMNMdvVL476StadDqnGeQnc9bNc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:130f:: with SMTP id x15mr3664459lfu.571.1630776958818; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 10:35:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D2C4DEE-2991-4539-B011-B1FFEE4530BE@tzi.org> <707d3f74-9f5e-5055-550e-247ea0c0210b@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <707d3f74-9f5e-5055-550e-247ea0c0210b@nostrum.com> From: Tim Wicinski Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 13:35:47 -0400 Message-ID: To: Robert Sparks Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000056a0ef05cb2ed9a0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mining WG notes X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 17:36:07 -0000 --00000000000056a0ef05cb2ed9a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:30 PM Robert Sparks wrote: > It's a bit of soup. > > You can use the api to strategically identify the minutes you want to > find and pull the files. > > The rsync endpoint you are looking for is at rsync.ietf.org::proceedings > > You might find things like rsync.ietf.org::proceedings/111/minutes/ > useful. > > As you see, the files are in many, many formats, including pdf. The hunt > will not necessarily be as easy as grep. > > I wonder if we're close to the point where we can say "Keep your agendas > and minutes going forward in markdown"? > > RjS > > +1 on our Markdown overlords. and offer different output formats via the API? as much as I have long loved my rsync, I feel we are reaching that tipping point of delivering everything via API. tim --00000000000056a0ef05cb2ed9a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:30 PM Robert Sparks = <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wr= ote:
It's a = bit of soup.

You can use the api to strategically identify the minutes you want to
find and pull the files.

The rsync endpoint you are looking for is at rsync.ietf.org::proceedings
You might find things like rsync.ietf.org::proceedings/111/minutes/ useful.=

As you see, the files are in many, many formats, including pdf. The hunt will not necessarily be as easy as grep.

I wonder if we're close to the point where we can say "Keep your a= gendas
and minutes going forward in markdown"?

RjS


+1 on our Markdown overlords.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">and offer diffe= rent output formats via the API?

as much as I have long loved my rsync, I fee= l we are reaching
that tipping point of delivering everything via API.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

<= /div>
tim
=

--00000000000056a0ef05cb2ed9a0-- From nobody Sat Sep 4 10:41:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236E13A1E48 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:41:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mail.udp.cl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BalD_pF2qelq for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3D063A1E3E for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id j13so3373848edv.13 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 10:40:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mail.udp.cl; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qYQPc2X8nMuI+fRSIm+BkMfOxFkrgN1ksNRqnfVeDo8=; b=ZPahtCv2ZsJRa/uxZcAStYbQfYZj3tFRR2le8aleDhAyOb/AVoMkGvY3PFNTppMmP/ x54JiDLKSRuviFxVh9kynsVGXvHJiFnYTY3/W8MRqDT93+KgQ3Mz48UlwoGsPg+s6nhU Kdsew70sbz7E9o9JXbQ+fLlAUctfuqZWew1fkNMyrMAhkN72bO+09oyR79aWX7ieUtVP q5DAnc4YayT9fu5KKs0Zv5UvRlZHAe8mYathwv5KBGmabcRKcAfjgjOdM/aciGUZf//g 6zAIEfxD7Yj5f43eGUwdDFlXEmPyigl98sexM8BbuDT3vfmiCuLyDHSa+ECb8ZpcqqYQ 6mQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qYQPc2X8nMuI+fRSIm+BkMfOxFkrgN1ksNRqnfVeDo8=; b=QLfRKkIFSW9fmI8rtMXrK8YLdbFVsynudl0mR6nh7Vut4/iaNSss/4vNEP73LA9qDr VjhzeeV7XqFk/MDsLfmT6CzxtWmGUsDoF3M5pIOJF1+z6C8gpAvdqMj94Od93F/e6K4v /b5kXzVFWBQsTq6Fwk2uesr3YEeffCjYQIQm5Lqdvl/Ts75yQyVpL2DhsXZIhtM14vnc CldVKBs6zXStRHJTO7g35Gj/KdeyPnpbcOA7Ijn04AChz6E62654oPqV3+ejV5uy2lsg 1p/beaaObPDnaCYWVxbAda4W0OTUJuL2Xuqiw/ZcV2T7R2qCD6tXOAwXdlHGd2GmZfKq PLww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533q1Bom+SYG7OZMUSUytzBQ2wLWna+Yd7x4mVtHFVxGZTcmSRy8 PFyw4os9whE1sSQTnKNOIMNEb+V3ief4uEGX4nB2bQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzfUeBjRUVKY50XPk787wO1fDySNuSz1FshStb/geVYtMxw8JLYmvgx5Z6l8XAuJsWlTYCsiJisvsb/SPwbaQc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:b47:: with SMTP id bx7mr5326831edb.319.1630777251629; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 10:40:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D2C4DEE-2991-4539-B011-B1FFEE4530BE@tzi.org> <707d3f74-9f5e-5055-550e-247ea0c0210b@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Prof. Diego Dujovne" Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 13:40:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: Tim Wicinski Cc: Robert Sparks , Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ca9aa105cb2eea20" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mining WG notes X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 17:41:00 -0000 --000000000000ca9aa105cb2eea20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi. Wouldn't it be nice to have the discussion in a kind of forum or a discussion thread associated directly to the draft, instead of going to the E-mail? Thanks. Regards, Diego Dujovne El s=C3=A1b., 4 de septiembre de 2021 13:36, Tim Wicinski escribi=C3=B3: > > > On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:30 PM Robert Sparks wrote= : > >> It's a bit of soup. >> >> You can use the api to strategically identify the minutes you want to >> find and pull the files. >> >> The rsync endpoint you are looking for is at rsync.ietf.org::proceedings >> >> You might find things like rsync.ietf.org::proceedings/111/minutes/ >> useful. >> >> As you see, the files are in many, many formats, including pdf. The hunt >> will not necessarily be as easy as grep. >> >> I wonder if we're close to the point where we can say "Keep your agendas >> and minutes going forward in markdown"? >> >> RjS >> >> > +1 on our Markdown overlords. > > and offer different output formats via the API? > > as much as I have long loved my rsync, I feel we are reaching > that tipping point of delivering everything via API. > > tim > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000ca9aa105cb2eea20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi.=C2=A0
Wouldn't it be nice to hav= e the discussion in a kind of forum or a discussion thread associated direc= tly to the draft, instead of going to the E-mail?
Th= anks.
Regards,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Diego Dujovne

El s=C3=A1b., = 4 de septiembre de 2021 13:36, Tim Wicinski <tjw.ietf@gmail.com> escribi=C3=B3:


On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:30= PM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
It's a bit of soup.

You can use the api to strategically identify the minutes you want to
find and pull the files.

The rsync endpoint you are looking for is at rsync.ietf.org::proceedings
You might find things like rsync.ietf.org::proceedings/111/minutes/ useful.=

As you see, the files are in many, many formats, including pdf. The hunt will not necessarily be as easy as grep.

I wonder if we're close to the point where we can say "Keep your a= gendas
and minutes going forward in markdown"?

RjS


+1 on our Markdown overlords.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">and offer diffe= rent output formats via the API?

as much as I have long loved my rsync, I fee= l we are reaching
that tipping point of delivering everything via API.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

<= /div>
tim
=

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project= @ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org<= /a>
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000ca9aa105cb2eea20-- From nobody Sun Sep 5 09:05:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B3A3A00AE for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:05:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i-H6xnMfcGYM for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 123083A0068 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H2bwW0ky3z2xJh; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:05:31 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <707d3f74-9f5e-5055-550e-247ea0c0210b@nostrum.com> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:05:30 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652550730.4613889-44b41f23e96f3befaafa2997dfac6573 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <20AAD621-63D8-4EF5-8B98-ACAD9FC45339@tzi.org> References: <3D2C4DEE-2991-4539-B011-B1FFEE4530BE@tzi.org> <707d3f74-9f5e-5055-550e-247ea0c0210b@nostrum.com> To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mining WG notes X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 16:05:47 -0000 On 2021-09-04, at 19:29, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > The rsync endpoint you are looking for is at = rsync.ietf.org::proceedings Thank you! That was the missing link. I set up a little tool for my personal use, =E2=80=9Cminutes-wurst.rb=E2=80= =9D (named such because it compiles all recent minutes for a WG into a = big =E2=80=9CWurst=E2=80=9D, which is a mostly unstructured text file = (=E2=80=9CWurst=E2=80=9D) intended to be in chronological order). Example output at https://tzi.de/~cabo/minutes-core.txt https://tzi.de/~cabo/minutes-cbor.txt (My broken web server serves these as text/plain as opposed to = text/plain;charset=3Dutf-8 =E2=80=94 sorry about that. Wget/curl-O and = open locally.) Tool source for your amusement at: https://gist.github.com/cabo/8e99a77502e4920ee2c3d52227f97a1e (Some assembly required.) The tool requires rsyncing the proceedings first, which weigh at 50 GB = =E2=80=94 but selective rsyncing might speed this up (didn=E2=80=99t try = to figure this out). If people find this little tool useful, tell me; I might make this = available in a more immediately useful way. (I might also take a couple more minutes to implement PDF to text = conversion, which I simply didn=E2=80=99t need for these two WGs.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Sep 6 01:39:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63223A26CB; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 01:39:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1FhJ7n6J3h9Q; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 01:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 228FE3A26E6; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 01:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H31zH5CGhz2xQm; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 10:39:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652610363.309292-97e3655ed44275572745505b8828f05e Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 10:39:23 +0200 Message-Id: To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Spam to wgname-bounces@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 08:39:36 -0000 All wgname@ietf.org lists have an associated address = wgname-bounces@ietf.org, which is used as the envelope address for all = messages sent from the mailman exploder to wgname@ietf.org. For some values of wgname, wgname-bounces@ietf.org has turned up in some = spammers' address collection, and there is of course nothing that can be = done about that. Of course the spam messages don=E2=80=99t look like bounces, so the = automatic handling of bounces in mailman cannot do anything useful with = them. Mailman allows to configure whether the list admins get shown = unidentifiable bounces. Switching this off may be tempting, but that = just means the admins fly blind for actual problems =E2=80=94 the = envelope address is useful; it allows the mailing list admins to notice = when something is wrong. But can we mitigate the spam to this address? Not sure that spam filtering would help much here. One mitigation might be to go =E2=80=9Cfast flux=E2=80=9D on the bounces = address, e.g. change it to wgname-bounces-2021-09 for this month and = discard mail to older versions (only accept wgname-bounces-2021-08 as = well) of the address. I haven=E2=80=99t checked whether mailman already = can do something like that; if not, that would require programming=E2=80=A6= Simply occasionally changing the bounces address manually would be a = low-tech variant of that (no idea whether it would be worth getting some = overlap then). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Sep 7 08:32:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91FFC3A0D41 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:32:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rVh76XzS19KV for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe33.google.com (mail-vs1-xe33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D7263A0D4A for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe33.google.com with SMTP id a21so8640053vsp.12 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 08:32:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sbJ/+q4XbdVIIo8EsOdYYuGDcJgvMA7hXxadpTydjzU=; b=XA0OGeMbQs+dQ/3R2yzTvXWwiF3FFFQvnjrj6u1pJjlnyZ9kPfhNfBqh0piWXoQuxH A/Jk7GCpqIRQldzieshLBpEwet3FyiOgkTIoFZzEdL/gkrd/NUM9bcxFdEFnbJrbZMhL Rdf2dbECnfWmyOHCPlL/FZTcU9GI83INLG+wAyuGyBS1KYBhKBRYZayTE1AuyHatMUuc zqO27J+AXO29bB3xf+xuQlE7S1fr1nnxNyj4y+gB2FC3mY+3ccMhBxdxNIeQKRWUcP8o V7pyP5sjkBmRcHzAbz0cBNLWIaEWyalVyyQLTypiP2FoWRjxlgTKvDP+to04+hRL8gjD Tlew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sbJ/+q4XbdVIIo8EsOdYYuGDcJgvMA7hXxadpTydjzU=; b=KnuuOH/e4Cx74TL8B55fEGgdl07lPrUhNpZ+LKHdLOy8Ow1evOuLfZwFLwKC5cwolV 30VLl+rxY/u2irQpWBL+aLC/hFXCC9X+zVOFs4PiPpGIWfUgicpxGuEn4DpJOpc1jHSm 3gPo/2TIXPCm4FayN8wsnepEKY0AMDbzEr7Htq6kKe8t/qLztpQdyKIn54JiS0UEGkdq JhJ34gdnschvC1Zi9TXsSadGqfp+wCYSvAVawbdPz93e7S1nT+I9hg8bJ09Ah5/Klja6 59rBugI0ZON/D4idJFxXG0Y74fajl1XzxT3cogstIm9sppwD2wMXJPQiMbDKwPBmU+/R uobg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532e5rYPmkqa/7pAWmwsiSS5USJlKjdNYolwKLgKaxWyPcWTxTLk aY3gEZTYTj3Yj934cxBHF11jFMdkLGBwWsWQprEYOekfmnQO8A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyPVtfJE+hkwnwQTtyKSUrgofD66lfpOpEm+oHw+IKGKkUBRNSDJWbCIlLkGucKTidCSIS6ejrsVdBgv6sPiXQ= X-Received: by 2002:a67:6c06:: with SMTP id h6mr9861123vsc.21.1631028721130; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 08:32:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0859FB3B-6893-4867-813C-87A3C14F6D4D@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <0859FB3B-6893-4867-813C-87A3C14F6D4D@ietf.org> From: Warren Kumari Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:31:25 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Greg M , Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss , Robert Sparks Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008ab1a705cb697774" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:32:09 -0000 --0000000000008ab1a705cb697774 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:46 AM Jay Daley wrote: > > > On 4/09/2021, at 7:09 AM, Greg M wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > Thanks kindly for responses. > > >> =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? > Perhaps not as important as simply defining, somewhere logical on the IET= F > site, the meaning of "bis" as used. > > I've made a pull request to add the Tao text to the "Guidelines to Authors of Internet-Drafts" repo. This is orthogonal to if it is added to the IETF site. Thanks, W > > Easy enough to do. We will look at it this week. > > Jay > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > > Greg McPherran > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Robert Sparks > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:01 PM > *To:* Marc Petit-Huguenin > *Cc:* Brian E Carpenter ; Carsten Bormann < > cabo@tzi.org>; gmcpherran@outlook.com ; > tools-discuss > *Subject:* Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" > > This is the updates conversation wearing a different skin. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:35 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin > wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? So the draft th= at > preceded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still does not se= em > right. rfc3489ter? > > > > On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there > anyway.) > >> The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "Re= : > 1602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew how > the CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow > debate, this is not exactly new terminology. > >> Also, > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.me= rriam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fbis&data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404d= ca45b208d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63766137712= 4901271%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI= 6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DFtDn0DwLIfh7Xk6MzWRh9z8PDeCIDNtZ= MoOTsOM1kQI%3D&reserved=3D0 > . Does the IETF web site really need to replace a dictionary? > >> Regards > >> Brian Carpenter > >> On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >>> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF > idiosyncrasy that one needs to learn about. > >>> > >>> If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D= is used in house > numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN would use =E2=80=9Ca= =E2=80=9D. > >>> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a" in Germ= any and > "3 bis" in France. > >>> > >>> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D), b= is, ter, etc. is > used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g. V.42 is modem > error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. > >>> > >>> Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean you dem= olish =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not > a replacement for V.42. > >>> > >>> How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Creplacement = version of=E2=80=9D meaning in > IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was simply trying to mimic (and moc= k, > all the while misunderstanding) CCITT habit. > >>> > >>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there > anyway.) > >>> > >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > >>> > >>> > >>>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote= : > >>>> > >>>> Moving this to tools-discuss. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- > >>>> Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" > >>>> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 > >>>> From: Greg M > >>>> To: datatracker-project@ietf.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect > detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an > obscure > >> term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation o= f > "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in > the "About" page. > >>>> > >>>> Example of public "bis" confusion: > >>>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow > >>>> > >>>> Thank You for the work that you do. > >>>> > >>>> Greg McPherran > >>>> Siteware.org > >>>> > > > > > > > > -- > > Marc Petit-Huguenin > > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > > Blog: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fmarc.p= etit-huguenin.org%2F&data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d96da4dc= 4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%7CUnknow= n%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI= 6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DR6G5I%2F0Q6srzoSzcHWUxK104WzpG5duOc%2BiOWgU413Y%= 3D&reserved=3D0 > > Profile: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.li= nkedin.com%2Fin%2Fpetithug&data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d9= 6da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%7C= Unknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiL= CJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DI2Eq8M9MP48toludXRpgn6XggizUSt2z08oM9fNOi6= g%3D&reserved=3D0 > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --=20 The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused by = the complexities of his own making. -- E. W. Dijkstra --0000000000008ab1a705cb697774 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:46 AM= Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf= .org> wrote:


On 4/09/2021, at 7:09 AM, Greg M <GMcPherran@outlook.com> wrote:<= br>
=EF=BB= =BF
Thanks= =C2=A0kindly for responses.=C2=A0

>> =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter?
Perhaps not as important as simply defining, somewhere logical on the IETF = site, the meaning of "bis" as used.

I've made a pull request = to add the Tao text to the "Guidelines to Authors of Internet-Drafts&q= uot; repo. This is orthogonal=C2=A0to if it is added to the IETF site.

Thanks,
W
=C2=A0

Easy enough to do.=C2=A0 We will look at it this w= eek. =C2=A0

Jay

--=C2=A0
Jay Daley
IET= F Executive Director=C2=A0


Greg McPherran

From= : Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:01 PM
To: Marc Petit-Huguenin <marc@petit-huguenin.org>
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Carsten Bormann= <cabo@tzi.org>= ; gmcpherran@ou= tlook.com <gmcpherran@outlook.com>; tools-discuss <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTT= P"bis"
=C2=A0
This is the updates conversation wearing a different skin.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:35 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin <marc@petit-huguenin.org> = wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter?=C2=A0 So th= e draft that preceded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still = does not seem right.=C2=A0 rfc3489ter?
>
> On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask= there anyway.)
>> The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject= "Re: 1602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed= also knew how the CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that St= ackOverflow debate, this is not exactly new terminology.
>> Also, https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.merr= iam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fbis&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee3840= 4dca45b208d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377= 124901271%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBT= iI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DFtDn0DwLIfh7Xk6MzWRh9z8PDe= CIDNtZMoOTsOM1kQI%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 . Does the IETF web site really need to replace a dictionary?
>> Regards
>>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter
>> On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an = IETF idiosyncrasy that one needs to learn about.
>>>
>>> If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis= =E2=80=9D is used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE o= r EN would use =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D.
>>> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a&q= uot; in Germany and "3 bis" in France.
>>>
>>> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80= =9D), bis, ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier o= ne, e.g. V.42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that.=
>>>
>>> Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean = you demolish =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. >>>
>>> How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Crepla= cement version of=E2=80=9D meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that= was simply trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCIT= T habit.
>>>
>>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask= there anyway.)
>>>
>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wr= ote:
>>>>
>>>> Moving this to tools-discuss.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>> Subject:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [django-project] "bis"= ; in HTTP"bis"
>>>> Date:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 >>>> From:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Greg M <GMcPherran@outlook.com>
>>>> To:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 datatracker-project@ietf.org <datatracker-proj= ect@ietf.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to ex= pect detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with = an obscure
>> term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no= explanation of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note abou= t "bis" meaning e.g. in the "About" page.
>>>>
>>>> Example of public "bis" confusion:
>>>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow
>>>>
>>>> Thank You for the work that you do.
>>>>
>>>> Greg McPherran
>>>> Siteware.org
>>>>
>
>
>
> --
> Marc Petit-Huguenin
> Email: ma= rc@petit-huguenin.org
> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fmarc.pet= it-huguenin.org%2F&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d96da4= dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%7CUnkn= own%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXV= CI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DR6G5I%2F0Q6srzoSzcHWUxK104WzpG5duOc%2BiOWg= U413Y%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> Profile: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.link= edin.com%2Fin%2Fpetithug&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208= d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%= 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWw= iLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DI2Eq8M9MP48toludXRpgn6XggizUSt2z08oM= 9fNOi6g%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

___________________________________________________________Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list i= s for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
*= Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org=
* Report tool= s.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other= bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Uns= ubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
___________________________________= ________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


--
The computing scientist=E2=80= =99s main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his ow= n making.
=C2=A0 -- E. W. Dijkstra
--0000000000008ab1a705cb697774-- From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:11:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED29E3A11D2 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:11:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zwcIKPfY-5Cx for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD4EB3A11CC for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 187GBD6t087008 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:11:14 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631031074; bh=X0ytaFMep1NwZDanIfM6r/KyQG1i4ThZDU6rFSGRxSQ=; h=To:From:Subject:Date; b=CrEmKrprKlIfRv2W96f9tvZ9a2B9jfB+5V9HzL5Gn0bhb8z9ms/5XlIMI7eZVDV2f V4RlSGKsxTvIjelEWK6bkREW40mgPq0jPa9acR3KuixnLIbDbYQAfPwecg1d3l525f E/LgxGfkoxNCzkQb0H6Z5qmaTzKdxn7DxQ9kFkec= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:11:08 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:11:21 -0000 We have a rough edge at making it easy to say "I want the current agenda = for FOO" or "I want the current draft text for draft-bar". tools.ietf.org had a 404 handler on many of the things it served to map=20 to the current version. The datatracker gives the current version, but=20 doesn't make it easy to get a raw document (instead of the metadata=20 page) for use with other tools, like rfcdiff. Solving this with a 404 handler at www.ietf.org/archive/id (or any of=20 the other places we look for things at www.ietf.org) has a bad=20 interaction with using cloudflare to help get what should be static=20 resources out as quickly as possible. I want to separate the dynamic things from the invariant things. I'm currently thinking of adding an endpoint somewhere, likely at first=20 in the datatracker, and maybe later as a standalone service, that looks=20 like: {some prefix}/latest/{docname-without-version} Remember, docnames can be for drafts, agendas, slides, whatever... that will redirect (using a temporary redirect) to the current version=20 of the named document in "best" format available, and allowing variants l= ike {some prefix}/latest/{docname-without-version}/txt to force the format. These would redirect to places that serve invariant things very efficient= ly. Software like rfcdiff can take a bare docname and internally use this=20 service to get the most recent thing. People can keep tabs open pointed to agendas through this service to be=20 sure to get whatever is current as a meeting approaches. Thoughts? RjS From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:14:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD59A3A11F6 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:14:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9g7RLOrvY7v7 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4B713A11F5 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H3r1t1yyBz2xb9; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:14:26 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:14:25 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652724065.580139-0c2c145f4c087110ef9f5537bb453aae Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:14:34 -0000 Right direction... > On 2021-09-07, at 18:11, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > adding an endpoint somewhere Can we design the URIs for ease of use as opposed to ease of = implementation? Can we do this right so this becomes doc.ietf.org? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:17:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1574E3A121A for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:17:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Agm5qXZmT1_Z for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8F773A1219 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 187GHKPm089151 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:17:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631031441; bh=ZkLBaDWpA73lg4wHZ2xyaFk0ubAvab1cocGUaeHTCWI=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=cF6IjT0DTzV30fgwigrUaauEPJFSmi5Y2jRilZXMHHpxUj9jS2PWQqG1vPWSvULe0 1zhAdqjYsNwjKjq0wjsymc8zf2syDq2nYqSyo46LNaAKgqlq4vKI2NZ/YTa06Bgq5Z IkSH2aQ9qL+R8GxTyePnz7mbM/QQP6x06T0xmydY= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:17:15 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:17:28 -0000 On 9/7/21 11:14 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Right direction... > >> On 2021-09-07, at 18:11, Robert Sparks wrote: >> >> adding an endpoint somewhere > Can we design the URIs for ease of use as opposed to ease of implementation? > Can we do this right so this becomes doc.ietf.org? I think what I've proposed is compatible with that goal. Do you see something there that introduces impedance? > > Grüße, Carsten > From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:36:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF39C3A1335 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WLmhlQ-R9rxR for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED2283A1324 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.39] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 187GZwDv065080 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:35:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.32.60.39] From: Paul Hoffman To: Robert Sparks Cc: tools-discuss Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 09:36:04 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5798) Message-ID: <2F45A9BB-F811-4373-8D5B-D76BF2EE8FBB@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:36:21 -0000 On 7 Sep 2021, at 9:11, Robert Sparks wrote: > Thoughts? I would very much like this. It was one of the main reasons I created the IETF CLI project (https://github.com/paulehoffman/ietf-cli) a while back. It is for a different purpose (opening drafts and RFCs locally in an editor), but it had the same background request. FWIW, I have just updated the project so that when you open an RFC, you automatically find out of there are drafts that intend to update or obsolete the RFC. If you use the CLI and have suggestions, I'm always open to them. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:41:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE7F3A1389 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:41:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xGnMyba_OoDW for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF2063A1383 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H3rdM1Ld2z2xc1; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:41:43 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:41:42 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652725702.757197-bd47266ae474723faacaef85415dd638 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0EED55A9-2DCC-4137-8FFB-517F64DC0BCC@tzi.org> References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:41:53 -0000 On 2021-09-07, at 18:17, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 9/7/21 11:14 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Right direction... >>=20 >>> On 2021-09-07, at 18:11, Robert Sparks wrote: >>>=20 >>> adding an endpoint somewhere >> Can we design the URIs for ease of use as opposed to ease of = implementation? >> Can we do this right so this becomes doc.ietf.org? > I think what I've proposed is compatible with that goal. Do you see = something there that introduces impedance? Only the examples with /latest and /txt in them. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:48:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBF93A13BB for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:48:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AtH8ZZTdbaHC for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C067E3A13AF for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 187GmYNl000626 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:48:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631033315; bh=g8mW1zM3Hfm6YzsT3+JobC+ei05xC2e/jSZ2tIvrGeQ=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=vh/OsUjMAT8KZkn1uHzHqMUPR02vaNdvAE+H7Lh+P9qs84xbuGj32/mNsxOzWlwuW HP1z03TN8y0rppDWFm84zNSYQZnLRHes8U6HDhwvC0FMpDTDeRevy+uIGwreQBGL2M U9ZLn+4w4nOg7D5v7D1pbi0OvGnzgOwp0Jyk6vpA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> <0EED55A9-2DCC-4137-8FFB-517F64DC0BCC@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <6e9e0372-0ab0-8f18-cf97-2b83e2500563@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:48:29 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0EED55A9-2DCC-4137-8FFB-517F64DC0BCC@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:48:41 -0000 On 9/7/21 11:41 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2021-09-07, at 18:17, Robert Sparks wrote: >> >> On 9/7/21 11:14 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> Right direction... >>> >>>> On 2021-09-07, at 18:11, Robert Sparks wrote:= >>>> >>>> adding an endpoint somewhere >>> Can we design the URIs for ease of use as opposed to ease of implemen= tation? >>> Can we do this right so this becomes doc.ietf.org? >> I think what I've proposed is compatible with that goal. Do you see so= mething there that introduces impedance? > Only the examples with /latest and /txt in them. So lets dig into this, recognizing that we're talking now towards some=20 future thing, and not necessarily the next step. If you had doc.ietf.org, what do you envision the URLs there _would_=20 look like? > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:55:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3E23A1458 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:55:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6mFrDc24drth for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 202FA3A1451 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H3rx50LJSz2xbx; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:55:21 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <6e9e0372-0ab0-8f18-cf97-2b83e2500563@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:55:20 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652726520.628567-0b5135d67152fa8eab02f20e7205db0d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4A13F1CA-A78D-419C-9D33-BB98C068D508@tzi.org> References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> <0EED55A9-2DCC-4137-8FFB-517F64DC0BCC@tzi.org> <6e9e0372-0ab0-8f18-cf97-2b83e2500563@nostrum.com> To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:55:31 -0000 On 2021-09-07, at 18:48, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > If you had doc.ietf.org, what do you envision the URLs there _would_ = look like? Short, memorable, stable. https://doc.ietf.org/rfc8610 (default form, HTML probably) https://doc.ietf.org/rfc8610.pdf =20 Note that the HTML forms do have a short header that is informed by the = tools =E2=80=9Chtmlized=E2=80=9D metadata header. If someone wants the = canonical form published by the RFC editor, they can go there (helped by = links in the metadata header). https://doc.ietf.org/draft-ietf-core-data-ct Redirects to: https://doc.ietf.org/draft-ietf-core-data-ct-04 (the latter is stable) https://doc.ietf.org/agenda-interim-2021-cbor-16-cbor Redirects to: https://doc.ietf.org/agenda-interim-2021-cbor-16-cbor-01/ etc. Now, it also would be interesting to get a search function like = tools.ietf.org has: https://doc.ietf.org/agenda-cbor-16 https://doc.ietf.org/data-ct (Again, redirect to the longer forms.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Sep 7 10:07:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E4E3A1539 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 10:07:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kq5Rl5zFunNi for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 10:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B65F23A1537 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 10:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 187H7L3J007450 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 12:07:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631034442; bh=zeigmB/bk4jv4QYINhnGqCfWI8hnB8K/9H9p9Ykl+k0=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Af8z+geb/hF3CVk8ZSM2Q7SZ1XweyyyNjcRqJXFYJDbJAvmeoyJywYiHFpyw5/job YKh3dlW4fKa/HnpAHUNJd1wNBHX0tHdzZyfiK0fgToXyM1w+AylUYW6MKhFDknfBtY efLVzH6dfzWQpO5LKeb8xhNWPnY4eicNlgd6iMSw= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> <0EED55A9-2DCC-4137-8FFB-517F64DC0BCC@tzi.org> <6e9e0372-0ab0-8f18-cf97-2b83e2500563@nostrum.com> <4A13F1CA-A78D-419C-9D33-BB98C068D508@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <64913395-8e0d-dfa9-f878-491995e890b7@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 12:07:16 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4A13F1CA-A78D-419C-9D33-BB98C068D508@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 17:07:38 -0000 On 9/7/21 11:55 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2021-09-07, at 18:48, Robert Sparks wrote: >> If you had doc.ietf.org, what do you envision the URLs there _would_ l= ook like? > Short, memorable, stable. > > > https://doc.ietf.org/rfc8610 (default form, HTML probably) > https://doc.ietf.org/rfc8610.pdf > > Note that the HTML forms do have a short header that is informed by the= tools =E2=80=9Chtmlized=E2=80=9D metadata header. If someone wants the = canonical form published by the RFC editor, they can go there (helped by = links in the metadata header). > > https://doc.ietf.org/draft-ietf-core-data-ct > Redirects to: > https://doc.ietf.org/draft-ietf-core-data-ct-04 > > (the latter is stable) > > https://doc.ietf.org/agenda-interim-2021-cbor-16-cbor > Redirects to: > https://doc.ietf.org/agenda-interim-2021-cbor-16-cbor-01/ > > etc. > > Now, it also would be interesting to get a search function like tools.i= etf.org has: > > https://doc.ietf.org/agenda-cbor-16 > https://doc.ietf.org/data-ct > > (Again, redirect to the longer forms.) So lets talk about leveraging a CDN or similar service for the immutable = things. With what you have here, you would _always_ have to go through logic at=20 this service even if you specified something concrete enough that you=20 could pull it from something that served only immutable content=20 directly. Scaling of the logic for these things is different. What if, instead of a single docs.ietf.org we had something like=20 docs.ietf.org for the dynamic points, and archive.ietf.org for the=20 immutables? RjS > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Tue Sep 7 14:09:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8913A17F7 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:09:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRqxsAbdJVC2 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90E853A17F4 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150B439487; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:15:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id svlHuZSywl9Q; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD7539444; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05FC02CC; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:08:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 21:09:13 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert Sparks wrote: > I want to separate the dynamic things from the invariant things. Sounds good. > I'm currently thinking of adding an endpoint somewhere, likely at fir= st > in the datatracker, and maybe later as a standalone service, that loo= ks > like: Why start with datatracker if you plan to use another name? Just start with the name, and update DNS when it's a different server? > that will redirect (using a temporary redirect) to the current version > of the named document in "best" format available, and allowing varian= ts > like Sounds perfect. > People can keep tabs open pointed to agendas through this service to = be > sure to get whatever is current as a meeting approaches. Given the glitches I've observed with google calendar not updating/caching calender entries, having a URL for an agenda that doesn't change would help work around that problem. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmE31OgACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVjwAf+MVPi1jFjfujsJTiqlGsVTFTTpSJpBXTYWEqwYQjM5j/lzQqDNeyWJZez JJm5OZfLChBASZul2gqRQoJZ1j5vdDCeUKFY3jCG2wIa6gkGp1+qUtxEdThdgs40 r8UXPN2D9eUrDz825BR5Dd/djMuM1gF4Xpa9B28GgQABj5bzNKLXeNV3f8NEjZbp kHLpeqZWYMGjtwR6SnLwS+eYWncM1hVLvQ4cnJ1+37Pb6MY1pXS1rWFgjwH7/2qb Os09L1+L9pVpQtbb8Hxkvv21psvkWXqUC2YM0AtlEP++VcJCp9Nf/uF00I2ppHca F7hJG7K17kRf43EVePSMf1MXKCthKA== =gRXD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Sep 7 14:33:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E67C3A1935 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:33:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UtIEnAgum16g for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com (mail-ot1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84D413A1931 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id l7-20020a0568302b0700b0051c0181deebso86869otv.12 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 14:33:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=6I66EX0bak10vI0Kb0n+lE+syjsBfEpgNeYka1J/iTA=; b=pHvShEmKGs2pQdM9NVWu8hcP9dz4nEf2RV8EDO81zVUJzTARwtetd1F9wMJZKKbU4U wPZ+AHGYUqMh31MEFzNljvD6d+ay18CXflIuTMYIy6CIwOewbTlo0PvRatYUgKVDels8 PMpjxTrKg0zhsE2R/nip30k85Q7G4SYlDSKdE+ndNLyrMnvq2k+ENH5btwyCwlynghY8 imxUoGQ03i3LPLx5Txa3EPUQohy9oohbGdrNq+bmC8ereaEJNKm2IDTPTkhup4Cseik2 aWrtq6YzoagknKlUcqSIKRGi/iH8fMocIgar6dyLjB5E13npuBxmkY93nnhvdJykcWX5 sVag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=6I66EX0bak10vI0Kb0n+lE+syjsBfEpgNeYka1J/iTA=; b=m5bQ2e6hNVp8JjWRcGnJJCc1mTm4l6kK9RgxCaiLN01nXs2E1CT4KIXvsrmSvdKFAk FX8Z/NBEfpvhoV1RSx7v4hWLu9xsfim84WCsShapDoasSdva+fMhUOkpjXR1KsQXF1aY 9QNucSqSMLojFhRVJAlQS4pe93hdEtsIQJ8GsLGnTtWFTyFDptlb3gI77Wg5s35rEr89 wjKy/lm1lpOyKIjVxIU66OZ0+UMixpicaB8gNgZnDuJDRKGO/7wPMDRGIUCCdrYYKGik x98ZKOUallu8N9OnhieCivsyxM9kVvQxWpF2Yav3Dwh+/nXSZ6D1R6vs6mLfc5WvE1qF LHAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5327/urC9ykNdSsxWylQ+mESdl3KPD+2kFZ4vFISta0Xdq8rBsXL hbcQ8XH3E+lx2SXXY0qb5+dZI4XDG6Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzz/7jBPoQyJGgbMUphXdB8SJv5icU19K7g5Lpc04JIB+Ang7PbN+PcAMsaInmFQ3zHT62yTQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:4c1:: with SMTP id s1mr390864otd.221.1631050390832; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 14:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-73-223-183-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.223.183.113]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g16sm29953otr.20.2021.09.07.14.33.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Sep 2021 14:33:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AD17A084-F384-4222-BB52-F3DA7BDCD233"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:33:08 -0700 To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] ID Nits issues with references X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 21:33:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AD17A084-F384-4222-BB52-F3DA7BDCD233 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, This may be a known problem, I am getting IDNITS errors based on the = expansion of a few references. See: = https://www6.ietf.org/tools/idnits?url=3Dhttps://www.ietf.org/archive/id/d= raft-ietf-6man-mtu-option-08.txt Specifically the reference for RFC8899 and RFC9099 Bob --Apple-Mail=_AD17A084-F384-4222-BB52-F3DA7BDCD233 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmE32pQACgkQrut0EXfn u6jqCAf7BUqPVyrR7h56OzdVYmcyMN0wKNkD8kLnliFAdBAWoLd/K8fh5d4ah2AQ 3B8BNfl9N9/ddUGH8P0sVe73FzudLFwisO1izttiVqSKB/mRFPt8ao2o1H1nwWDl gO8rymwWG54yYE2MRUeRhkS3R7cnsBP06HO7+PqoWhLAIbnpkFjDTkPfpnBccXJ+ tIZVqXNhRCzIz6oiAzVCuLlQB7xHl9DhFGgElQIxeMrOPfxA/Fv8BpwtmOG2P2Fb znJtHvq1gLHfQ2kjqPwq50xIhTOlB2iyXTiY/5uozMtuTtUfGdszuiDarWyVDGro 5VIucgL1bUb8LAfbQuqVPvCcn3nSVQ== =Hady -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_AD17A084-F384-4222-BB52-F3DA7BDCD233-- From nobody Tue Sep 7 14:59:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518593A1A8C for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:59:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qvKX7hyT1mYC for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F7583A1A48 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 187LxHvX013391 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:59:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631051957; bh=dqF2eW/M37jacCyrWWVF3objicLxwPtLofDf7DDWx9M=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=HPeM2dtXScuw+LwzFGEIgeVvxCwsCy/tSOS5GCdovrzv8gjTNH80hm3EVU5NO+qc2 vU1U3Onxz4Zxe+fSMteiIncyLoiyX1NRi7FMY5hoVUVIl/43MBQDjYUUE1+gVjgBZy FJbn72z1JgXsZG7k53wr0Tk723MYunBQGygdMHqc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Bob Hinden , tools-discuss References: From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:59:11 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F315FAE2CD8929730FDD2ABC" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ID Nits issues with references X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 21:59:27 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F315FAE2CD8929730FDD2ABC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes - all symptoms of what's happening with  bibxml. Thanks for reporting it. RjS On 9/7/21 4:33 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: > Hi, > > This may be a known problem, I am getting IDNITS errors based on the expansion of a few references. > > See: > > https://www6.ietf.org/tools/idnits?url=https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-6man-mtu-option-08.txt > > Specifically the reference for RFC8899 and RFC9099 > > Bob > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------F315FAE2CD8929730FDD2ABC Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Yes - all symptoms of what's happening with  bibxml. Thanks for reporting it.

RjS

On 9/7/21 4:33 PM, Bob Hinden wrote:
Hi,

This may be a known problem, I am getting IDNITS errors based on the expansion of a few references.

See:

   https://www6.ietf.org/tools/idnits?url=https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-6man-mtu-option-08.txt

Specifically the reference for RFC8899 and RFC9099

Bob




___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--------------F315FAE2CD8929730FDD2ABC-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 14:37:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50B1F3A0AF9 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 14:37:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ssmaWEG4skCN for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 14:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR05-AM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am6eur05on2044.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.22.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B9EC3A0ADF for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 14:37:30 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=NYgWRJji4PUFroOIJSMbej6J2CNXtYMw29H6yAVHXjVwA3szoa65BWn/QY0WXdOHwbEFIzDN5B2yfO8Tbu5W7esN2xg/pOFgPnQ4vgaGDVB/XIWDEKStzqOgXOj3H6oKadK2ShOdB1h/Dwha1dXfMubNHoCA1VkncQWW1ri7xdWRXI4TIvW+htWVYTQEhyaCo3LPFXq0tNqDPDGbCRD/8VOMehvwGgVelse2GOoPdPjkG9gjGyIfLnKZ/Cfu9izLR7QxAIPm+rGkB5qP9m+0xURph68ucyqleYrMp/mP4cx0ury3cAmwOjPi8ZmxT7kB/YfJxL+uNYqlQqpOSQStCA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=n5tPajgtHyMBUaugHZzRoVEYi8xd4A6eTdI4ZH0BrFo=; b=SmS/obKO7MOIs49L6nTVIBoTZRAREcA3XRaOb008oP23bLE2NG6DrGlz3tYsiocOIZpfGMzROh0m3feGWL/FuoPMPaUer6eFg5gP7gWZjdTcrqgsWZGUy3p1Ul24Xs9te2skEF4ALH9s29nkLz66N7LnSmpq6Wx5n3WR1fX3CGon9VCI2954R4RFZ/Ld0b1nA34OvegNGW2L5ftSdWcH2+zJRMw9GT2bDnVtZvs7FEjUp4yIO0jFVnry/wkvmbdG5n4J/vKt9z+rz7M4QhYFKUVrx+41/TlAVP6NEfQea0vxQ1377EzgeOk4rCrT1iJwkqImjp75cSl3LVE8dCwvXg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ericsson.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ericsson.com; dkim=pass header.d=ericsson.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=n5tPajgtHyMBUaugHZzRoVEYi8xd4A6eTdI4ZH0BrFo=; b=g4xu8zs7oMi45f+2MmGoa5bPOkc2Uffky3B/ShBnqmYjHHGVhbI/YX4DOSYHtdnzCQ1mQqw3YfOPopCWNme9Rm3qt1SLj2vKNU+GsreFUC5khSbj69aXIpjWT+KtXCCqzNy6STX3lfH4pu9QPgt9LrI1nZQiJSgn/YSDwEy+7ts= Received: from AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:325::15) by AM8PR07MB8107.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:36e::8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4478.9; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 21:37:25 +0000 Received: from AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c4ed:5ded:f1a0:dafd]) by AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c4ed:5ded:f1a0:dafd%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4436.017; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 21:37:25 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Unknown idnits error Thread-Index: AdelwChKgTJnD9xMQ02aU3zEB6MieAAALSmg Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 21:37:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 75665fa6-8223-4515-c01a-08d973da03ef x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM8PR07MB8107: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(99936003)(66446008)(122000001)(38100700002)(6916009)(4744005)(64756008)(66476007)(3480700007)(71200400001)(966005)(316002)(2940100002)(38070700005)(5660300002)(83380400001)(66556008)(66946007)(508600001)(86362001)(52536014)(2906002)(7696005)(166002)(6506007)(9686003)(8676002)(26005)(8936002)(33656002)(76116006)(9326002)(66616009)(186003)(7116003)(55016002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?iso-8859-1?Q?1PP8lc2KD06qt3tmk4yh5e3hD0C8Q4dOtiU8tRF5Nm0j2r25ITjdLdfHnf?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?QNJ81GwK06Nx1Dbh4mgWX5BcAUNuwqlfEM1aGX1x0UlQIyyps9irvbdOXS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?QBTssPI8+owi0OfYGjzKhjfZ0SHKrYZ04OWfy+NtyeCUeU1RTPXD3yVAfn?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?QG6kEPfBZTnu+h6KUa2jv1IWzs6MvF4s3JrOfoA1nyoBRTJW7UnIKPI9bR?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?FCvAhtIE684nEtZ6FBuiGBz86utHu3sWEIcp+6Mf4gREFl6pe5TOwXvr3L?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?HYmy/vl5hNjhW8snLISfhutPVDEYtHQwk6SCPd/Idfd8/YE87CJLJYJSnw?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?SsrEy4oteMNMOzjSY+cYcp0sbNuyKfhcU/by6IIaSEU4XUwl2mgRAUqgWQ?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?gInwMZUg2bLHU0HbrsVIIA+G81AV0t+C7nJQcgUF4He6FFlgIv1LvKEzJp?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?C/PSsaKianOU6qcaksTnhUG7oxs0076xnDXrU5aqWbbdqEzKqwvbBeeMkH?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?IFAA0+fMnpkcGGvb3pDj6W3e+6An9h6fcmvq0AG7kBxEn1bEn3zyFEdhSR?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?pAe72by7qu+xGTAj+MKCDwfB+R440WPkLCeXX9tdDY6Rcf4oZTiW3DTItQ?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?M8N0GCxICfenXLU41i8sqhds8sufTC93UHZLFHhhouxGqlx4zABbszVL8D?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?NoM8MfMklfLu6iUCXxq+CrlA9kYHqVZc3nbtzzOJzEPdg9RXi/bT+nwaO2?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?q06uuC0Vd9suOLeLWMCx2SeTXw2afY7ztM9R0F6TpaXty1ahdK4+axCdtd?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?+4bS2fi2nPINGDehQPILPZRdh91/Q8gnb38qV134HakXIw0SfiJREWxlTh?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?D9uh5+JrODNlGJ/j+Y+Sr4ti/N21Z6nGqTNA75oxgKTa/1BaZWjRRSsTFz?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?aMvBYPjZlIH0O2MZ77iaH1/yDUbOVcnjLxJYFlxEN/IloYbINkUJci7cbn?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?QX/Ew4ohtylTRx/JdSUMx5BFw19iTiLnXChOVe7ZhabHaHbk6xlD0ZIoGv?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?qBxhBfb+1uxXJA+2nrjFf66uKrqmhbHckD5tbD0sdQ6eoK0F0QoR/VVVza?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?dpzzDEBCAtVZIsKfV2VnZKMg4zEUDD5SE8Tgq5lzWffhrjubjVNTqBoMAf?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Nsj3XjQqEv1rFFR42LHUwiE2gyz7GHl7KGjnuvQdB9R1eJYmyGSXztcn36?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ibW90GvQtt4WDRocj88wU2FYgKvioydtMkKS8wECcg7N5oUeYWOGMP4nTZ?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?iOGuLpRK8EOF/lJaX16CFcwqvilSFuuadEYQftlgdKLBR5Y=3D?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08E5_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 75665fa6-8223-4515-c01a-08d973da03ef X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Sep 2021 21:37:25.5336 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: +KO6oFffLXPDB5zRIzMG5XBYnFjiljtmvcrF26N1hMTOPBzFEyy6LPNeZq0inhJ4ewl8MEZ/DhbT275rnDO1zUNOB02iCPfZ7SY1CrWEPoE= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8107 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:37:48 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_08E5_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_08E6_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0" ------=_NextPart_001_08E6_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_08E7_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0" ------=_NextPart_002_08E7_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I am trying to check a new version of my draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18 (attached). I tried to check the draft running the web based idnits tool. = https://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ =20 The draft=92s previous version did not have any idnits errors or = warnings. Now suddenly I get:=20 =20 =3D=3D Couldn't figure out when the document was first submitted -- = there may comments or warnings related to the use of a disclaimer for = pre-RFC5378 work that could not be issued because of this. Please check the = Legal Provisions document at https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info to determine if you need the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer. I did not change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and how = to get rid of it? It is impossible to understand the problem and how to handle it from = this error message.=20 =20 Please help, Balazs =20 =20 --=20 Balazs Lengyel Senior Specialist Ericsson Hungary Ltd.=20 Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_002_08E7_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

I am trying =
to check a new version of my =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18 =
(attached).

I tried to check = the draft running the web based idnits tool. https://tools.ietf.org/to= ols/idnits/

 
The =
draft’s previous version did not have any idnits errors or =
warnings. Now suddenly I get: 
 =

=3D=3D Couldn't figure out when the document was =
first submitted -- there =
may
     comments or warnings =
related to the use of a disclaimer for =
pre-RFC5378
     work that =
could not be issued because of this.  Please check the =
Legal
     Provisions document =
at https://trustee.ietf.org/l=
icense-info to =
determine
     if you need the =
pre-RFC5378 disclaimer.
I did not =
change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and how to get =
rid of it?
It is =
impossible to understand the problem and how to handle it from this =
error message. 
 
Please help, =
Balazs

 

 

-- =

Balazs = Lengyel           =          Senior = Specialist          &nb= sp;            = Ericsson Hungary Ltd.

Mobile: = +36-70-330-7909         &nbs= p;    email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com

 

------=_NextPart_002_08E7_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0-- ------=_NextPart_001_08E6_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0 Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18.txt" =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Netmod B. Lengyel=0A= Internet-Draft Ericsson=0A= Intended status: Standards Track B. Claise=0A= Expires: March 13, 2022 Huawei=0A= September 9, 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= YANG Instance Data File Format=0A= draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18=0A= =0A= Abstract=0A= =0A= There is a need to document data defined in YANG models at design=0A= time, implementation time or when a live server is unavailable. This=0A= document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data,=0A= which follows the syntax and semantics of existing YANG models, and=0A= annotates it with metadata.=0A= =0A= Status of This Memo=0A= =0A= This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the=0A= provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.=0A= =0A= Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering=0A= Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also distribute=0A= working documents as Internet-Drafts. The list of current Internet-=0A= Drafts is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.=0A= =0A= Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months=0A= and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any=0A= time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference=0A= material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."=0A= =0A= This Internet-Draft will expire on March 13, 2022.=0A= =0A= Copyright Notice=0A= =0A= Copyright (c) 2021 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the=0A= document authors. All rights reserved.=0A= =0A= This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal=0A= Provisions Relating to IETF Documents=0A= (https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of=0A= publication of this document. Please review these documents=0A= carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect=0A= to this document. Code Components extracted from this document must=0A= include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 1]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as=0A= described in the Simplified BSD License.=0A= =0A= Table of Contents=0A= =0A= 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2=0A= 1.1. Terminology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3=0A= 1.2. Principles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4=0A= 1.3. Delivery of Instance Data . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4=0A= 1.4. Data Life cycle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5=0A= 2. Instance Data File Format . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5=0A= 2.1. Specifying the Content Schema . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7=0A= 2.1.1. Inline Method . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8=0A= 2.1.2. Simplified-Inline Method . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8=0A= 2.1.3. URI Method . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8=0A= 2.2. Examples . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8=0A= 2.2.1. Documentation of server capabilities . . . . . . . . 8=0A= 2.2.2. Preloading default configuration data . . . . . . . . 10=0A= 2.2.3. Storing diagnostics data . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11=0A= 3. YANG Instance Data Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12=0A= 3.1. Tree Diagram . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12=0A= 3.2. YANG Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13=0A= 4. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20=0A= 5. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20=0A= 5.1. URI Registration . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20=0A= 5.2. YANG Module Name Registration . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21=0A= 6. Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21=0A= 7. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21=0A= 7.1. Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21=0A= 7.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22=0A= Appendix A. Changes between revisions . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23=0A= Appendix B. Backwards Compatibility . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26=0A= Appendix C. Detailed Use Cases . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26=0A= C.1. Use Case 1: Early Documentation of Server Capabilities . 27=0A= C.2. Use Case 2: Preloading Data . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28=0A= C.3. Use Case 3: Documenting Factory Default Settings . . . . 28=0A= Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28=0A= =0A= 1. Introduction=0A= =0A= There is a need to document data defined in YANG models when a live=0A= server is unavailable. Data is often needed at design,=0A= implementation time or when a live running server is unavailable. To=0A= facilitate this offline delivery of data, this document specifies a=0A= standard format for YANG instance data sets and YANG instance data=0A= files. The format of the instance data set is defined by the "ietf-=0A= yang-instance-data" YANG module, see Section 3. The YANG data model=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 2]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= in this document conforms to the Network Management Datastore=0A= Architecture (NMDA) defined in [RFC8342]=0A= =0A= The following is a list of already implemented and potential use=0A= cases.=0A= =0A= UC1 Documentation of server capabilities=0A= =0A= UC2 Preloading default configuration data=0A= =0A= UC3 Documenting Factory Default Settings=0A= =0A= UC4 Storing the configuration of a device, e.g., for backup, archive=0A= or audit purposes=0A= =0A= UC5 Storing diagnostics data=0A= =0A= UC6 Allowing YANG instance data to potentially be carried within=0A= other IPC message formats=0A= =0A= UC7 Default instance data used as part of a templating solution=0A= =0A= UC8 Providing data examples in RFCs or internet drafts=0A= =0A= In Appendix C describes the first three use cases in detail.=0A= =0A= There are many and varied use cases where YANG instance data could be=0A= used. This document does not limit future uses of instance data=0A= sets, so specifying how and when to use YANG instance data is out of=0A= scope for this document. It is anticipated that other documents will=0A= define specific use cases. Use cases are listed only as examples.=0A= =0A= 1.1. Terminology=0A= =0A= The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",=0A= "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "NOT RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and=0A= "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in BCP=0A= 14 [RFC2119] [RFC8174] when, and only when, they appear in all=0A= capitals, as shown here.=0A= =0A= Instance Data: A collection of instantiated data nodes.=0A= =0A= Instance Data Set: A named set of data items annotated with metadata=0A= that can be used as instance data in a YANG data tree.=0A= =0A= Instance Data File: A file containing an instance data set formatted=0A= according to the rules described in this document.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 3]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= Content-schema: A set of YANG modules with their revision, supported=0A= features, and deviations for which the instance data set contains=0A= instance data.=0A= =0A= Content defining YANG module: an individual YANG module that is part=0A= of the content-schema.=0A= =0A= The term "server" is used as defined in [RFC8342].=0A= =0A= 1.2. Principles=0A= =0A= The following is a list of the basic principles of the instance data=0A= format:=0A= =0A= P1 Two standard formats shall be defined based on the XML and JSON=0A= encodings.=0A= =0A= P2 Instance data shall reuse existing encoding rules for YANG=0A= defined data.=0A= =0A= P3 Metadata about the instance data set (Section 2, Paragraph 9)=0A= shall be defined.=0A= =0A= P4 A YANG instance data set shall be allowed to contain data for=0A= multiple YANG modules.=0A= =0A= P5 Instance data shall be allowed to contain configuration data,=0A= state data, or a mix of the two.=0A= =0A= P6 Partial data sets shall be allowed.=0A= =0A= P7 The YANG instance data format shall be usable for any data for=0A= which YANG module(s) are defined and available to the reader,=0A= independent of whether the module is implemented by a server.=0A= =0A= P8 It shall be possible to report the identity of the datastore with=0A= which the instance data set is associated.=0A= =0A= 1.3. Delivery of Instance Data=0A= =0A= Instance data sets that are produced as a result of some sort of=0A= specification or design effort may be available without the need for=0A= a live server e.g., via download from the vendor's website, or in any=0A= other way that product documentation is distributed.=0A= =0A= Other instance data sets may be read from or produced by the YANG=0A= server itself e.g., UC5 documenting diagnostic data.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 4]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= 1.4. Data Life cycle=0A= =0A= A YANG instance data set is created at a specific point of time. If=0A= the data changes afterwards, this is not represented in the instance=0A= data set anymore. The current values may be retrieved at run-time=0A= via NETCONF/RESTCONF or received e.g., in YANG-Push notifications.=0A= =0A= Whether the instance data changes and if so, when and how, should be=0A= described either in the instance data set's description statement or=0A= in some other implementation specific manner.=0A= =0A= 2. Instance Data File Format=0A= =0A= A YANG instance data file MUST contain a single instance data set and=0A= no additional data.=0A= =0A= The format of the instance data set is defined by the "ietf-yang-=0A= instance-data" YANG module. It is made up of a header part and=0A= content-data. The header part carries metadata for the instance data=0A= set. The content-data, defined as an anydata data node, carries the=0A= instance data that the user wants to document/provide. The syntax=0A= and semantics of content-data is defined by the content-schema.=0A= =0A= Two formats are specified based on the XML and JSON YANG encodings.=0A= Later, as other YANG encodings (e.g., CBOR) are defined, further=0A= instance data formats may be specified.=0A= =0A= The content-data part MUST conform to the content-schema, while=0A= allowing for the exceptions listed below. The content-data part=0A= SHALL follow the encoding rules defined in [RFC7950] for XML and=0A= [RFC7951] for JSON and MUST use UTF-8 character encoding. Content-=0A= data MAY include:=0A= =0A= o metadata, as defined by [RFC7952].=0A= =0A= o origin metadata, as specified in [RFC8526] and [RFC8527]=0A= =0A= o implementation specific metadata relevant to individual data=0A= nodes. Unknown metadata MUST be ignored by users of instance=0A= data, allowing it to be used later for other purposes.=0A= =0A= An instance data set MAY contain data for any number of YANG modules;=0A= if needed it MAY carry the complete configuration and state data for=0A= a server. Default values should be excluded where they do not=0A= provide additional useful data.=0A= =0A= Configuration ("config true") and operational state data ("config=0A= false") MAY be mixed in the instance data file.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 5]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= Instance data files MAY contain partial data sets. This means=0A= "mandatory", "min-elements", "require-instance true", "must" and=0A= "when" constrains MAY be violated.=0A= =0A= The name of the instance data file SHOULD be of the form:=0A= =0A= instance-data-set-name ['@' ( revision-date / timestamp ) ]=0A= ( '.xml' / '.json' )=0A= =0A= E.g., acme-router-modules.xml=0A= E.g., acme-router-modules@2018-01-25.xml=0A= E.g., acme-router-modules@2018-01-25T15_06_34_3+01_00.json=0A= =0A= =0A= If the leaf "name" is present in the instance data header, its value=0A= SHOULD be used for the "instance-data-set-name". If the "revision-=0A= date" is present in the filename it MUST conform to the format of the=0A= revision-date leaf in the YANG model. If the "revision-date" is=0A= present in both the filename and in the instance data header, the=0A= revision date in the file name MUST be set to the latest revision=0A= date inside the instance data set. If the "timestamp" is present in=0A= the filename it MUST conform to the format of the timestamp leaf in=0A= the YANG model except for replacing colons as described below. If=0A= the "timestamp" is present both in the filename and in the instance=0A= data header, the timestamp in the file name SHOULD be set to the=0A= timestamp inside the instance data set; any colons, if present, shall=0A= be replaced by underscores.=0A= =0A= Metadata, information about the data set itself SHOULD be included in=0A= the instance data set. Some metadata items are defined in the YANG=0A= module "ietf-yang-instance-data", but other items MAY be used.=0A= =0A= Metadata MUST include:=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= * Version of the YANG Instance Data format=0A= =0A= Metadata SHOULD include:=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= * Name of the data set=0A= =0A= * Content schema specification (i.e., the "content-schema" node)=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 6]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= * Description of the instance data set. The description SHOULD=0A= contain information whether and how the data can change during=0A= the lifetime of the server=0A= =0A= * An indication whether default values are included. The default=0A= handling uses the concepts defined in [RFC6243], however as=0A= only concepts are re-used, users of instance data sets, do not=0A= need to support RFC 6243.=0A= =0A= 2.1. Specifying the Content Schema=0A= =0A= To properly understand and use an instance data set, the user needs=0A= to know the content-schema. One of the following methods SHOULD be=0A= used:=0A= =0A= Simplified-Inline method: Include the needed information as part=0A= of the instance data set; short specification.=0A= =0A= Inline method: Include the needed information as part of the=0A= instance data set.=0A= =0A= URI method: Include a URI that references another YANG instance=0A= data file. This instance data file will use the same content-=0A= schema as the referenced YANG instance data file. (if you don't=0A= want to repeat the info again and again)=0A= =0A= External Method: Do not include the "content-schema" node; the=0A= user needs to obtain the information through external documents.=0A= =0A= Additional methods e.g., a YANG-package based solution may be added=0A= later.=0A= =0A= Note, the specified content-schema only indicates the set of modules=0A= that were used to define this YANG instance data set. Sometimes=0A= instance data may be used for a server supporting a different YANG=0A= module set (e.g., for the "Preloading default configuration data"=0A= use-case, UC2 in Section 1, the instance data set may not be updated=0A= every time the YANG modules on the server are updated). Whether an=0A= instance data set originally defined using a specific content-schema=0A= is usable with a different other schema depends on many factors=0A= including the amount of differences and the compatibility between the=0A= original and the other schema, considering modules, revisions,=0A= features, deviations, the scope of the instance data, etc.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 7]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= 2.1.1. Inline Method=0A= =0A= The inline-yang-library anydata data node carries instance data=0A= (conforming to ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04) that specifies the=0A= content defining YANG modules including revision, supported features,=0A= deviations and any relevant additional data. An example of the=0A= "inline" method is provided in Figure 2.=0A= =0A= 2.1.2. Simplified-Inline Method=0A= =0A= The instance data set contains a list of content defining YANG=0A= modules including the revision date for each. Usage of this method=0A= implies that the modules are used without any deviations and with all=0A= features supported. YANG modules that are only required to satisfy=0A= import-only dependencies MAY be excluded from the leaf-list. If they=0A= are excluded then the consumer of the instance data set has to apply=0A= the YANG language rules to resolve the imports. An example of the=0A= "simplified-inline" method is provided in Figure 3.=0A= =0A= 2.1.3. URI Method=0A= =0A= The "same-schema-as-file" leaf SHALL contain a URI that references=0A= another YANG instance data file. The current instance data file will=0A= use the same content schema as the referenced file.=0A= =0A= The referenced instance data file MAY have no content-data if it is=0A= used solely for specifying the content-schema.=0A= =0A= If a referenced instance data file is unavailable, content-schema is=0A= unknown.=0A= =0A= The URI method is advantageous when the user wants to avoid the=0A= overhead of specifying the content-schema in each instance data file:=0A= E.g., In UC6, when the system creates a diagnostic file every minute=0A= to document the state of the server.=0A= =0A= An example of the "URI" method is provided in Figure 4.=0A= =0A= 2.2. Examples=0A= =0A= 2.2.1. Documentation of server capabilities=0A= =0A= The example file acme-router-modules@2021-07-29.xml reflects UC1 in=0A= Section 1. It provides a list of supported YANG modules and NETCONF=0A= capabilities for a server. It uses the "inline" method to specify=0A= the content-schema.=0A= =0A= The example uses artwork folding [RFC8792].=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 8]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D NOTE: '\' line wrapping per RFC 8792 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= acme-router-modules=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= ietf-yang-library=0A= 2019-01-04=0A= =0A= =0A= ietf-netconf-monitoring=0A= 2010-10-04=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= 1956-10-23=0A= Initial version=0A= =0A= Defines the minimal set of modules that any \=0A= acme-router will contain.=0A= info@acme.com=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= ietf-yang-library=0A= 2019-01-04=0A= \=0A= urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-yang-library\=0A= =0A= implement=0A= =0A= =0A= ietf-system=0A= 2014-08-06=0A= urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-system=0A= sys:authentication=0A= sys:local-users=0A= =0A= acme-system-ext=0A= 2018-08-06=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 9]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= implement=0A= =0A= =0A= ietf-netconf-monitoring=0A= 2010-10-04=0A= \=0A= urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-netconf-monitoring\=0A= =0A= implement=0A= =0A= =0A= ietf-yang-types=0A= 2013-07-15=0A= urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-yang-types\=0A= =0A= import=0A= =0A= =0A= acme-system-ext=0A= 2018-08-06=0A= urn:rdns:acme.com:oammodel:acme-system-ext\=0A= =0A= implement=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= \=0A= urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1\=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Figure 2=0A= =0A= 2.2.2. Preloading default configuration data=0A= =0A= The example file read-only-acm-rules@2021-07-29.xml reflects UC2 in=0A= Section 1. It provides a default rule set for a read-only operator=0A= role. It uses the "simplified-inline" method for specifying the=0A= content-schema.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 10]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= read-only-acm-rules=0A= =0A= ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14=0A= =0A= =0A= 1776-07-04=0A= Initial version=0A= =0A= Access control rules for a read-only role.=0A= =0A= =0A= true=0A= deny=0A= deny=0A= =0A= read-only-role=0A= read-only-group=0A= =0A= read-all=0A= *=0A= read=0A= permit=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Figure 3=0A= =0A= 2.2.3. Storing diagnostics data=0A= =0A= The example file acme-router-netconf-=0A= diagnostics@2018-01-25T17_00_38Z.json reflects UC5 in Section 1. An=0A= instance data set is produced by the server every 15 minutes that=0A= contains statistics about the NETCONF server. As a new set is=0A= produced periodically many times a day a revision-date would be=0A= useless; instead a timestamp is included.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 11]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= {=0A= "ietf-yang-instance-data:instance-data-set": {=0A= "name": "acme-router-netconf-diagnostics",=0A= "content-schema": {=0A= "same-schema-as-file": "file:///acme-diagnostics-schema.json"=0A= },=0A= "timestamp": "2018-01-25T17:00:38Z",=0A= "description": ["NETCONF statistics"],=0A= "content-data": {=0A= "ietf-netconf-monitoring:netconf-state": {=0A= "statistics": {=0A= "netconf-start-time ": "2018-12-05T17:45:00Z",=0A= "in-bad-hellos ": "32",=0A= "in-sessions ": "397",=0A= "dropped-sessions ": "87",=0A= "in-rpcs ": "8711",=0A= "in-bad-rpcs ": "408",=0A= "out-rpc-errors ": "408",=0A= "out-notifications": "39007"=0A= }=0A= }=0A= }=0A= }=0A= }=0A= =0A= Figure 4=0A= =0A= 3. YANG Instance Data Model=0A= =0A= 3.1. Tree Diagram=0A= =0A= The following tree diagram [RFC8340] provides an overview of the data=0A= model.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 12]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= module: ietf-yang-instance-data=0A= =0A= structure instance-data-set:=0A= +-- name? string=0A= +-- format-version? string=0A= +-- includes-defaults? enumeration=0A= +-- content-schema=0A= | +-- (content-schema-spec)?=0A= | +--:(simplified-inline)=0A= | | +-- module* module-with-revision-date=0A= | +--:(inline)=0A= | | +-- inline-yang-library =0A= | +--:(uri)=0A= | +-- same-schema-as-file? inet:uri=0A= +-- description* string=0A= +-- contact? string=0A= +-- organization? string=0A= +-- datastore? ds:datastore-ref=0A= +-- revision* [date]=0A= | +-- date string=0A= | +-- description? string=0A= +-- timestamp? yang:date-and-time=0A= +-- content-data? =0A= =0A= 3.2. YANG Model=0A= =0A= This YANG module imports typedefs from [RFC6991], identities from=0A= [RFC8342] and the "structure" extension from [RFC8791]. It also=0A= references [RFC8525] and [RFC6243].=0A= =0A= file "ietf-yang-instance-data@2021-07-29.yang"=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace the date above if the module gets changed in=0A= //anyway during reviews or RFC editor process and remove this note=0A= module ietf-yang-instance-data {=0A= yang-version 1.1;=0A= namespace "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-yang-instance-data";=0A= prefix yid;=0A= =0A= import ietf-yang-structure-ext {=0A= prefix sx;=0A= reference=0A= "YANG Data Structure Extensions:=0A= draft-ietf-netmod-yang-data-ext-05";=0A= }=0A= import ietf-datastores {=0A= prefix ds;=0A= reference=0A= "RFC 8342: Network Management Datastore Architecture (NMDA)";=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 13]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= }=0A= import ietf-inet-types {=0A= prefix inet;=0A= reference=0A= "RFC 6991: Common YANG Data Types";=0A= }=0A= import ietf-yang-types {=0A= prefix yang;=0A= reference=0A= "RFC 6991: Common YANG Data Types";=0A= }=0A= =0A= organization=0A= "IETF NETMOD Working Group";=0A= contact=0A= "WG Web: =0A= WG List: =0A= =0A= Author: Balazs Lengyel=0A= =0A= =0A= Author: Benoit Claise=0A= ";=0A= description=0A= "The module defines the structure and content of YANG=0A= instance data sets.=0A= =0A= The key words 'MUST', 'MUST NOT', 'REQUIRED', 'SHALL',=0A= 'SHALL NOT', 'SHOULD', 'SHOULD NOT', 'RECOMMENDED',=0A= 'NOT RECOMMENDED', 'MAY', and 'OPTIONAL' in this document=0A= are to be interpreted as described in BCP 14 (RFC 2119)=0A= (RFC 8174) when, and only when, they appear in all=0A= capitals, as shown here.=0A= =0A= Copyright (c) 2021 IETF Trust and the persons identified as=0A= authors of the code. All rights reserved.=0A= =0A= Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or=0A= without modification, is permitted pursuant to, and subject=0A= to the license terms contained in, the Simplified BSD License=0A= set forth in Section 4.c of the IETF Trust's Legal Provisions=0A= Relating to IETF Documents=0A= (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info).=0A= =0A= This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX; see=0A= the RFC itself for full legal notices.";=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace XXXX with RFC number and remove this note=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 14]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= revision 2021-07-29 {=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace the date above if the module gets changed in=0A= // anyway during reviews or RFC editor process and remove=0A= //this note=0A= description=0A= "Initial revision.";=0A= reference=0A= "RFC XXXX: YANG Instance Data Format";=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace XXXX with RFC number and remove this note=0A= }=0A= =0A= typedef module-with-revision-date {=0A= type string {=0A= pattern '[a-zA-Z_][a-zA-Z0-9\-_.]*'=0A= + '(@\d{4}-(1[0-2]|0[1-9])-(0[1-9]|[1|2][0-9]|3[0-1]))?';=0A= pattern '.|..|[^xX].*|.[^mM].*|..[^lL].*';=0A= }=0A= description=0A= "A type defining a module name and an optional revision=0A= date, e.g. ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04";=0A= }=0A= =0A= sx:structure "instance-data-set" {=0A= description=0A= "A data structure to define a format for YANG instance=0A= data. The majority of the YANG nodes provide meta-data=0A= about the instance data; the instance data itself is=0A= is contained only in the 'content-data' node.";=0A= leaf name {=0A= type string;=0A= description=0A= "An arbitrary name for the YANG instance data set. This=0A= value is primarily used for descriptive purposes. However,=0A= when the instance data set is saved to a file, then the=0A= filename MUST encode the name's value, per Section 3=0A= of RFC XXXX.";=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace XXXX with RFC number and remove this note=0A= }=0A= leaf format-version {=0A= type string {=0A= pattern '\d{4}-(1[0-2]|0[1-9])-(0[1-9]|[1|2][0-9]|3[0-1])';=0A= }=0A= default "2021-07-29";=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace the date above if the module gets changed=0A= // in anyway during reviews or RFC editor process and remove=0A= // this note=0A= description=0A= "The 'revision' of the 'ietf-yang-instance-data' module=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 15]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= used to encode this 'instance-data-set'.";=0A= }=0A= leaf includes-defaults {=0A= type enumeration {=0A= enum report-all {=0A= value 1;=0A= description=0A= "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of=0A= any default values, if the data node=0A= is covered by the instance-data-set.";=0A= }=0A= enum report-all-tagged {=0A= value 2;=0A= description=0A= "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of=0A= any default values if the data node=0A= is covered by the instance-data-set.=0A= Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL=0A= contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'";=0A= }=0A= enum trim {=0A= value 3;=0A= description=0A= "Data nodes that have a default defined and where=0A= the actual value is equal to the schema default=0A= value SHALL NOT be included.";=0A= }=0A= enum explicit {=0A= value 4;=0A= description=0A= "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the=0A= schema default value SHALL NOT be included.=0A= However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF=0A= client or other management application by the way=0A= of an explicit management operation, the data node=0A= SHALL be included if the data node is covered by=0A= the instance-data-set.";=0A= }=0A= }=0A= description=0A= "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default=0A= data. This leaf indicates whether default data is=0A= included.=0A= =0A= Instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data=0A= sets: it may not cover all data nodes. A leaf or=0A= leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set=0A= does not intend to include the data node independent=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 16]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= of default handling.";=0A= reference=0A= "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF=0A= RFC 8040: RESTCONF Protocol";=0A= }=0A= container content-schema {=0A= description=0A= "The content schema (i.e., YANG modules) used to create=0A= the instance data set.=0A= If not present the user needs to obtain the information=0A= through external documents.";=0A= choice content-schema-spec {=0A= description=0A= "Specification of the content-schema.";=0A= case simplified-inline {=0A= leaf-list module {=0A= type module-with-revision-date;=0A= min-elements 1;=0A= description=0A= "The list of content defining YANG modules.=0A= =0A= The value SHALL start with the module name.=0A= If the module contains a revision statement the=0A= revision date SHALL be included in the leaf-list=0A= entry.=0A= =0A= E.g., ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04=0A= =0A= Usage of this leaf-list implies the modules are=0A= used without any deviations and with all features=0A= supported. Multiple revisions of the same module=0A= MUST NOT be specified.";=0A= }=0A= }=0A= case inline {=0A= anydata inline-yang-library {=0A= mandatory true;=0A= description=0A= "Instance data corresponding to the=0A= ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 defining=0A= the set of content defining YANG modules for=0A= this instance-data-set.";=0A= }=0A= }=0A= case uri {=0A= leaf same-schema-as-file {=0A= type inet:uri;=0A= description=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 17]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= "A reference to another YANG instance data file.=0A= This instance data file uses the same=0A= content schema as the referenced file.=0A= =0A= Referenced files using the 'inline' or the=0A= 'simplified-inline' methods MUST be supported.=0A= Referenced files using the 'URI Method' MAY be=0A= supported.=0A= =0A= The URL schemes 'file://' and 'https://' MUST=0A= be supported, other schemes MAY also be=0A= supported.";=0A= }=0A= }=0A= }=0A= }=0A= leaf-list description {=0A= type string;=0A= description=0A= "Description of the instance data set.";=0A= }=0A= leaf contact {=0A= type string;=0A= description=0A= "Contact information for the person or=0A= organization to whom queries concerning this=0A= instance data set should be sent.";=0A= }=0A= leaf organization {=0A= type string;=0A= description=0A= "Organization responsible for the instance=0A= data set.";=0A= }=0A= leaf datastore {=0A= type ds:datastore-ref;=0A= description=0A= "The identity of the datastore with which the=0A= instance data set is associated, e.g., the datastore from=0A= where the data was read or the datastore into which the data=0A= may be loaded or the datastore which is being documented.=0A= If a single specific datastore cannot be specified, the=0A= leaf MUST be absent.=0A= =0A= If this leaf is absent, then the datastore to which the=0A= instance data belongs is unspecified.";=0A= }=0A= list revision {=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 18]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= key "date";=0A= description=0A= "Instance data sets that are produced as=0A= a result of some sort of specification or design effort=0A= SHOULD have at least one revision entry. For every=0A= published editorial change, a new unique revision SHOULD=0A= be added in front of the revisions sequence so that all=0A= revisions are in reverse chronological order.=0A= =0A= In case of instance data sets that are read from=0A= or produced by a server or otherwise subject to=0A= frequent updates or changes, revision=0A= SHOULD NOT be present";=0A= leaf date {=0A= type string {=0A= pattern '\d{4}-(1[0-2]|0[1-9])-(0[1-9]|[1|2][0-9]|3[0-1])';=0A= }=0A= description=0A= "Specifies the date the instance data set=0A= was last modified. Formatted as YYYY-MM-DD";=0A= }=0A= leaf description {=0A= type string;=0A= description=0A= "Description of this revision of the instance data set.";=0A= }=0A= }=0A= leaf timestamp {=0A= type yang:date-and-time;=0A= description=0A= "The date and time when the instance data set=0A= was last modified.=0A= =0A= In case of instance data sets that are read from or=0A= produced by a server or otherwise subject to frequent=0A= updates or changes, timestamp SHOULD be present.=0A= =0A= If both a revision list entry and timestamp are present=0A= the timestamp SHOULD contain the same date as the=0A= latest revision statement.";=0A= }=0A= anydata content-data {=0A= description=0A= "Contains the real instance data.=0A= The data MUST conform to the relevant YANG modules=0A= specified either in the content-schema or in some other=0A= implementation specific manner.";=0A= }=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 19]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= }=0A= }=0A= =0A= =0A= 4. Security Considerations=0A= =0A= The YANG module defined in this document only defines a wrapper=0A= structure specifying a format and a metadata header for YANG instance=0A= data defined by the content-schema. Because of this the security=0A= considerations template for YANG models in section 3.7.1 in [RFC8407]=0A= is not followed. The instance data is designed to be accessed as a=0A= stored file or over any file access method or protocol.=0A= =0A= The document does not specify any method to influence the behavior of=0A= a server.=0A= =0A= Instance data files may contain sensitive data.=0A= =0A= The header part is not security sensitive with one possible=0A= exception. If the URI method is used for specification of the=0A= content schema and the URI includes a username and/or a password, the=0A= instance data file needs to be handled in a secure way as mentioned=0A= below.=0A= =0A= The security sensitivity of the instance data in the content part is=0A= completely dependent on the content schema. Depending on the nature=0A= of the instance data, instance data files MAY need to be handled=0A= securely. The same kind of handling should be applied, that would be=0A= needed for the result of a read operation returning the same data.=0A= =0A= Instance data files should be protected against modification or=0A= unauthorized access using normal file handling mechanisms. Care=0A= should be taken, when copying the original files or providing file=0A= access for additional users, not to reveal information=0A= unintentionally.=0A= =0A= 5. IANA Considerations=0A= =0A= This document registers one URI and one YANG module.=0A= =0A= 5.1. URI Registration=0A= =0A= This document registers one URI in the IETF XML registry [RFC3688].=0A= Following the format in RFC 3688, the following registration is=0A= requested to be made:=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 20]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= URI: urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-yang-instance-data=0A= Registrant Contact: The IESG.=0A= XML: N/A, the requested URI is an XML namespace.=0A= =0A= 5.2. YANG Module Name Registration=0A= =0A= This document registers one YANG module in the YANG Module Names=0A= registry [RFC6020]. Following the format in [RFC6020], the following=0A= registrations are requested:=0A= =0A= name: ietf-yang-instance-data=0A= namespace: urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-yang-instance-data=0A= prefix: yid=0A= reference: RFC XXXX=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace XXXX with RFC number and remove this note=0A= =0A= 6. Acknowledgments=0A= =0A= For their valuable comments, discussions, and feedback, we wish to=0A= acknowledge Andy Bierman, Juergen Schoenwaelder, Rob Wilton, Joe=0A= Clarke, Kent Watsen Martin Bjorklund, Ladislav Lhotka, Qin Wu and=0A= other members of the Netmod WG.=0A= =0A= 7. References=0A= =0A= 7.1. Normative References=0A= =0A= [RFC2119] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate=0A= Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC2119, March 1997,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC6020] Bjorklund, M., Ed., "YANG - A Data Modeling Language for=0A= the Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)", RFC 6020,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC6020, October 2010,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC6243] Bierman, A. and B. Lengyel, "With-defaults Capability for=0A= NETCONF", RFC 6243, DOI 10.17487/RFC6243, June 2011,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC6991] Schoenwaelder, J., Ed., "Common YANG Data Types",=0A= RFC 6991, DOI 10.17487/RFC6991, July 2013,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC7950] Bjorklund, M., Ed., "The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language",=0A= RFC 7950, DOI 10.17487/RFC7950, August 2016,=0A= .=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 21]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= [RFC7951] Lhotka, L., "JSON Encoding of Data Modeled with YANG",=0A= RFC 7951, DOI 10.17487/RFC7951, August 2016,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC7952] Lhotka, L., "Defining and Using Metadata with YANG",=0A= RFC 7952, DOI 10.17487/RFC7952, August 2016,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8174] Leiba, B., "Ambiguity of Uppercase vs Lowercase in RFC=0A= 2119 Key Words", BCP 14, RFC 8174, DOI 10.17487/RFC8174,=0A= May 2017, .=0A= =0A= [RFC8342] Bjorklund, M., Schoenwaelder, J., Shafer, P., Watsen, K.,=0A= and R. Wilton, "Network Management Datastore Architecture=0A= (NMDA)", RFC 8342, DOI 10.17487/RFC8342, March 2018,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8525] Bierman, A., Bjorklund, M., Schoenwaelder, J., Watsen, K.,=0A= and R. Wilton, "YANG Library", RFC 8525,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC8525, March 2019,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8526] Bjorklund, M., Schoenwaelder, J., Shafer, P., Watsen, K.,=0A= and R. Wilton, "NETCONF Extensions to Support the Network=0A= Management Datastore Architecture", RFC 8526,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC8526, March 2019,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8527] Bjorklund, M., Schoenwaelder, J., Shafer, P., Watsen, K.,=0A= and R. Wilton, "RESTCONF Extensions to Support the Network=0A= Management Datastore Architecture", RFC 8527,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC8527, March 2019,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8791] Bierman, A., Bjoerklund, M., and K. Watsen, "YANG Data=0A= Structure Extensions", RFC 8791, DOI 10.17487/RFC8791,=0A= June 2020, .=0A= =0A= 7.2. Informative References=0A= =0A= [RFC3688] Mealling, M., "The IETF XML Registry", BCP 81, RFC 3688,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC3688, January 2004,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8340] Bjorklund, M. and L. Berger, Ed., "YANG Tree Diagrams",=0A= BCP 215, RFC 8340, DOI 10.17487/RFC8340, March 2018,=0A= .=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 22]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= [RFC8407] Bierman, A., "Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of=0A= Documents Containing YANG Data Models", BCP 216, RFC 8407,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC8407, October 2018,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8632] Vallin, S. and M. Bjorklund, "A YANG Data Model for Alarm=0A= Management", RFC 8632, DOI 10.17487/RFC8632, September=0A= 2019, .=0A= =0A= [RFC8641] Clemm, A. and E. Voit, "Subscription to YANG Notifications=0A= for Datastore Updates", RFC 8641, DOI 10.17487/RFC8641,=0A= September 2019, .=0A= =0A= [RFC8792] Watsen, K., Auerswald, E., Farrel, A., and Q. Wu,=0A= "Handling Long Lines in Content of Internet-Drafts and=0A= RFCs", RFC 8792, DOI 10.17487/RFC8792, June 2020,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8808] Wu, Q., Lengyel, B., and Y. Niu, "A YANG Data Model for=0A= Factory Default Settings", RFC 8808, DOI 10.17487/RFC8808,=0A= August 2020, .=0A= =0A= Appendix A. Changes between revisions=0A= =0A= RFC Ed.: Remove section "Changes between revisions"=0A= =0A= v17 - v18=0A= =0A= o Added the report-all-tagged mode to the leaf includes-defaults=0A= =0A= v16 - v17=0A= =0A= o Removed default statement from includes-default=0A= =0A= v15 - v16=0A= =0A= o Editorial changes=0A= =0A= v14 - v15=0A= =0A= o Removed reference to revision-label=0A= =0A= o For the inline method made the usage of ietf-yang-=0A= library@2019-01-04 mandatory. Simplified the case "inline" in the=0A= YANG module.=0A= =0A= o Removed the "inline-module" leaf as it does not carry useful=0A= information anymore.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 23]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= o Removed YANG feature=0A= =0A= v13 - v14=0A= =0A= o Added leaf includes-defaults=0A= =0A= o Many small changes based on AD review=0A= =0A= v09 - v13=0A= =0A= o Editorial updates=0A= =0A= v08 - v09=0A= =0A= o Removed reference to similar to get reply=0A= =0A= o Introduced artwork folding in the examples=0A= =0A= v07 - v08=0A= =0A= o Moved compatibility into appendix=0A= =0A= o Renamed yid-version to format-version. Changed format to date of=0A= the YANG module=0A= =0A= o Made support of ietf-yang-library mandatory if inline-content-=0A= schema is supported=0A= =0A= o Many small changes based on WGLC=0A= =0A= v06 - v07=0A= =0A= o Updated terminology, use-cases=0A= =0A= o Many small changes based on WGLC=0A= =0A= v05 - v06=0A= =0A= o Modified module name format, removed .yin or .yang extension=0A= =0A= o Removed pattern for module and inline-module. The usage of=0A= revision-label should also be allowed.=0A= =0A= v04 - v05=0A= =0A= o Updated according to YANG-Doctor review=0A= =0A= o Updated security considerations=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 24]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= o Added a wrapping container for the schema, and renamed the data=0A= nodes in the inline and uri cases.=0A= =0A= o Allowed .yin for simplified-inline schema naming. Made date=0A= optional if it is unavailable in the YANG module.=0A= =0A= o Added a mandatory yid-version to the header metadata to allow=0A= later updates of the module.=0A= =0A= v03 - v04=0A= =0A= o removed entity-tag and last-modified timestamp=0A= =0A= o Added simplified-inline method of content-schema specification=0A= =0A= v02 - v03=0A= =0A= o target renamed to "content-schema" and "content defining YANG=0A= module(s)"=0A= =0A= o Made name of instance data set optional=0A= =0A= o Updated according to draft-ietf-netmod-yang-data-ext-03=0A= =0A= o Clarified that entity-tag and last-modified timestamp are encoded=0A= as metadata. While they contain useful data, the HTTP-header=0A= based encoding from Restconf is not suitable.=0A= =0A= v01 - v02=0A= =0A= o Removed design time from terminology=0A= =0A= o Defined the format of the content-data part by referencing various=0A= RFCs and drafts instead of the result of the get-data and get=0A= operations.=0A= =0A= o Changed target-ptr to a choice=0A= =0A= o Inline target-ptr may include augmenting modules and alternatives=0A= to ietf-yang-library=0A= =0A= o Moved list of target modules into a separate =0A= element.=0A= =0A= o Added backwards compatibility considerations=0A= =0A= v00 - v01=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 25]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= o Added the target-ptr metadata with 3 methods=0A= =0A= o Added timestamp metadata=0A= =0A= o Removed usage of dedicated .yid file extension=0A= =0A= o Added list of use cases=0A= =0A= o Added list of principles=0A= =0A= o Updated examples=0A= =0A= o Moved detailed use case descriptions to appendix=0A= =0A= Appendix B. Backwards Compatibility=0A= =0A= The concept of backwards compatibility and what changes are backwards=0A= compatible are not defined for "instance data sets" as it is highly=0A= dependent on the specific use case and the content-schema.=0A= =0A= In case of "instance data sets" that are the result of design or=0A= specification activity, some changes that may be good to avoid are=0A= listed below.=0A= =0A= YANG uses the concept of managed entities identified by key values;=0A= if the connection between the represented entity and the key value is=0A= not preserved during an update, this may lead to the following=0A= problems.=0A= =0A= o If the key value of a list entry that represents the same managed=0A= entity as before is changed, the user may mistakenly identify the=0A= list entry as new.=0A= =0A= o If the meaning of a list entry is changed, but the key values are=0A= not (e.g., redefining an alarm-type but not changing its alarm-=0A= type-id) the change may not be noticed.=0A= =0A= o If the key value of a previously removed list entry is reused for=0A= a different entity, the change may be misinterpreted as=0A= reintroducing the previous entity.=0A= =0A= Appendix C. Detailed Use Cases=0A= =0A= This section is non-normative.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 26]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= C.1. Use Case 1: Early Documentation of Server Capabilities=0A= =0A= A server has a number of server-capabilities that are defined in YANG=0A= modules and can be retrieved from the server using protocols like=0A= NETCONF or RESTCONF. Server capabilities include:=0A= =0A= o data defined in "ietf-yang-library": YANG modules, submodules,=0A= features, deviations, schema-mounts, and datastores supported=0A= ([RFC8525])=0A= =0A= o alarms supported ([RFC8632])=0A= =0A= o data nodes and subtrees that support or do not support on-change=0A= notifications ([RFC8641])=0A= =0A= o netconf-capabilities in ietf-netconf-monitoring.=0A= =0A= While it is good practice to allow a client to query these=0A= capabilities from the live server, that is often not possible.=0A= =0A= Often when a network node is released, an associated NMS (network=0A= management system) is also released with it. The NMS depends on the=0A= capabilities of the server. During NMS implementation, information=0A= about server capabilities is needed. If the information is=0A= unavailable early in some offline document, but only as instance data=0A= from the live network node, the NMS implementation will be delayed,=0A= because it has to wait until the network node is ready. Also=0A= assuming that all NMS implementors will have a correctly configured=0A= network nodes from which data can be retrieved, is a very expensive=0A= proposition. (An NMS may handle dozens of node types.)=0A= =0A= Network operators often build their own home-grown NMS systems that=0A= need to be integrated with a vendor's network node. The operator=0A= needs to know the network node's server capabilities in order to do=0A= this. Moreover, the network operator's decision to buy a vendor's=0A= product may even be influenced by the network node's OAM feature set=0A= documented as the server's capabilities.=0A= =0A= Beside NMS implementors, system integrators and many others also need=0A= the same information early. Examples could be model driven testing,=0A= generating documentation, etc.=0A= =0A= Most server-capabilities are relatively stable and change only during=0A= upgrade or due to licensing or the addition or removal of hardware.=0A= They are usually defined by a vendor at design time, before the=0A= product is released. It is feasible and advantageous to define/=0A= document them early e.g., in a YANG instance data File.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 27]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= It is anticipated that a separate IETF document will define in detail=0A= how and which set of server capabilities should be documented.=0A= =0A= C.2. Use Case 2: Preloading Data=0A= =0A= There are parts of the configuration that must be fully configurable=0A= by the operator. However, often a simple default configuration will=0A= be sufficient.=0A= =0A= One example is access control groups/roles and related rules. While=0A= a sophisticated operator may define dozens of different groups, often=0A= a basic (read-only operator, read-write system administrator,=0A= security-administrator) triplet will be enough. Vendors will often=0A= provide such default configuration data to make device configuration=0A= easier for an operator.=0A= =0A= Defining access control data is a complex task. To help, the device=0A= vendor predefines a set of default groups (/nacm:nacm/groups) and=0A= rules for these groups to access specific parts of common models=0A= (/nacm:nacm/rule-list/rule).=0A= =0A= YANG instance data files are used to document and/or preload the=0A= default configuration.=0A= =0A= C.3. Use Case 3: Documenting Factory Default Settings=0A= =0A= Nearly every server has a factory default configuration. If the=0A= system is really badly misconfigured or if the current configuration=0A= is to be abandoned, the system can be reset the default factory=0A= configuration.=0A= =0A= The operator currently needs to know what the default configuration=0A= actually contains. YANG instance data can be used to document the=0A= factory default configuration. See [RFC8808].=0A= =0A= Authors' Addresses=0A= =0A= Balazs Lengyel=0A= Ericsson=0A= =0A= Email: balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com=0A= =0A= =0A= Benoit Claise=0A= Huawei=0A= =0A= Email: benoit.claise@huawei.com=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 28]=0A= ------=_NextPart_001_08E6_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_08E5_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIR8jCCBTgw ggMgoAMCAQICEQCVvhag9y5G8Xs5gnL6i82WMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMDcxFDASBgNVBAoMC1Rl bGlhU29uZXJhMR8wHQYDVQQDDBZUZWxpYVNvbmVyYSBSb290IENBIHYxMB4XDTA3MTAxODEyMDA1 MFoXDTMyMTAxODEyMDA1MFowNzEUMBIGA1UECgwLVGVsaWFTb25lcmExHzAdBgNVBAMMFlRlbGlh U29uZXJhIFJvb3QgQ0EgdjEwggIiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4ICDwAwggIKAoICAQDCvusn8CGj 82kmVX6dxVUWkVz97yG/U4B6LdKRjGMx8Owk8MOl0nJ8EG30N7fl5nx56oy1gouuSLasANxldewq TV/Bh/UgZSuBqEc+iSOVMBaQf+hXB0jnGa6/RWexNxsGKv7e+ax9g/teuuSPl2e+S46NZAdXOFVp NDY9E0jvT+LTZh6kzxq3XjYz1LQGvRgB/XeEUABF9Yxd6CO8fv414e1Qe6kwjRnTCY5oZ12/PJcY U7spYsXKXnLBx5bU2y2gtB9pA+zq4lDxDDzwrPNTLfAc9e1sOTlzgBbIUrAjzeA+3N08R6C7NYri mGiLvuW/cu7S+qXtEu38mBipJnbcKEsQIBzTfxZ3Le1vgPdJu1MFu11ox9TIdRY/iVqL9xdH1Ezx 0ol5Pk09mKhh3joe0vheA+DByRyM041N05U2szdfY2ObMxTwLSZrU3yJjDLCbuw9IQA5yaFo4lCD LrA6K/M2oKwv5G9hwlEJOT6LU7m7Z9rcU7l2WTadQ+Ug4D0yYIUiUbfHM7vdFS+keKYHe4FGNgSG 3Xk1x5UsO7CjFzXlcx+0XFnv2uoQZXt60H+fs7QqNztwi5tbuSu37LJREpdTKVrU8BIQ3E8CuxKS L2LUP2lDfA3W/Fh1AYidWBZL3rqQ/0cBiQZq9l+ykGqzAqYCiL+zR34q2dX6aHg1TQIDAQABoz8w PTAPBgNVHRMBAf8EBTADAQH/MAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjAdBgNVHQ4EFgQU8I9ZOACz9Y+algzV6/p7 qhfoExIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADggIBAL7kXGJOJPQMCP/w0wxo5JNJIj9EJ2+7bd6DZs6ozA38 9ZoG5XcUkeudQXuZKoTl//whwV3w5B9Xt3WpoV8CJv/Xx/dO3k/49xxGwHpPQCwiNfAZsdBrZyyw qODAQDc19oRcXOOvQnj+p8kNUOoNhHb2Ue+DU8Z6/w5WSS6PetYM5idU400KYHJizZEH1qW/yJlr 7cQZ5qtMETjFbzHibknIP3aAJgMmKeA29vYgU+MXcDQXnWNoHmvsw02GuBMwL11GDUdD1RuqWQ65 XI0GSK10h1/H/DFUQRPixyEOnuAeDeHAe0OFkMWKWMZlCnhX8sYjDwHZIEveD/uShXUqXHONbXsl kcruRa4GSwDM07FZUNo6iDspQ0ZelytUzlNvjUrnlvq/cQ5Ci3z9KKDQSMraxIFMu6JzkybI6wzW Joi2wCTPu71b63V96QiOhjMseXcJaaWJ/LNwkId2j9Miu0LOvXMLICYq0Js9cB4kbM2HdqkXlrfP DZL7jhipmEnRnv5gRHIhuRntwvUx8TlIiJAkdVQWrc70+GkUZDn7o7i6cEDHJxy/xFZT+mNl0PMc Dhb1a4ZYTRjU5A2OpZ1bkdx2JFA/xir72bectdbm0NnoGYsVcUitt+rYWYjUkL8Ws9nprFlhVMgc usrByuG5IEyPOpOJpaDMv9P2daR1lm1WMIIF7DCCA9SgAwIBAgIPAXUc1ROE7L9MPfu7eEiGMA0G CSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMEcxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlNFMREwDwYDVQQKDAhFcmljc3NvbjElMCMGA1UEAwwc RXJpY3Nzb24gTkwgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBDQSB2MzAeFw0yMDEwMTIxMjQyMDVaFw0yMzEwMTMxMjQy MDRaMFkxETAPBgNVBAoMCEVyaWNzc29uMRgwFgYDVQQDDA9CYWzDoXpzIExlbmd5ZWwxKjAoBgkq hkiG9w0BCQEWG2JhbGF6cy5sZW5neWVsQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbTCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAD ggEPADCCAQoCggEBAIY9tW43KkX0v7F/PJBbw9U3ygqpHruC1COfeak4TXgZkHPCY+wATiveaId4 y8GstEVH3spxA+G4B5r4+wqbEEPJSjf6pRgOkdE6ORwlApyIJeWHPSC+NN8IeyErzZNIrZli3vpU V236s4Z8CL05QeXg6OnO8vIPzjKqOmNSxlSlFnxiBK1Tj+4lMqZmI9xyaQ+RRJyaWTQKOkEeaa6V 2i4N1Gicr7/5IJdoBB+oT5vCV3tO+B0ubC40f4vdVwu7nLgAgDJOBL4j7Op8BvNmLBmKdnlK0Vj+ nW1kFgCSNepVO7Fx08n4UEOufAp0RPI3z0AcnOwMJT5khqdz08xoI1kCAwEAAaOCAcEwggG9MB8G A1UdIwQYMBaAFBx7GZ6XnHasID3Y3OORauPbLaZTMB0GA1UdDgQWBBQQoIERhKwaNK1dOsySWsLF ygxQPTAOBgNVHQ8BAf8EBAMCBaAwVQYDVR0gBE4wTDBKBgwrBgEEAYIPAgMBARIwOjA4BggrBgEF BQcCARYsaHR0cHM6Ly9yZXBvc2l0b3J5LnRydXN0LnRlbGlhc29uZXJhLmNvbS9DUFMwJgYDVR0R BB8wHYEbYmFsYXpzLmxlbmd5ZWxAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tMEgGA1UdHwRBMD8wPaA7oDmGN2h0dHA6 Ly9jcmwudHJ1c3QudGVsaWEuY29tL2VyaWNzc29ubmxpbmRpdmlkdWFsY2F2My5jcmwwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMIGCBggrBgEFBQcBAQR2MHQwKAYIKwYBBQUHMAGGHGh0 dHA6Ly9vY3NwMi50cnVzdC50ZWxpYS5jb20wSAYIKwYBBQUHMAKGPGh0dHA6Ly9jYS50cnVzdC50 ZWxpYXNvbmVyYS5jb20vZXJpY3Nzb25ubGluZGl2aWR1YWxjYXYzLmNlcjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsF AAOCAgEAMyuEx/Jnxv1chc1eA81RXqFyxv7056cNkVGgRJP5j9kNAFNreHI3yY6folHuWMrIeE7p ad1YZ87UrWiBU97CbV+zrOc2EqnlcLfBCKMT24gGw8jTcE+KeNPoh5QKBYNYf+evBhITv16N4N8B eU3hRCHHGvQiKow/aaWqsQcgDtQdTIzDpw8cNB6UzSzqwtmtVERsnNzVbp3Bv4/SbLB9TP+YZPKm Bw8jgNQ4w42O6vYhhtNLsGvDswJ/f1bYwfa50b99o14Pz23oGDYcWDOQ2snUXq/FlMxj4oJ0EbHY mzHiJe6rQMSyl6iMb6HZ+S8Syzf84hmlRHtVr8/t/6Jz3DxSE4dlS5fORnKXbAPdEHk9558SJcQp I9zgXsOzNw5O1Btu3Cb4URv1ycf43Km25PRHjoNiXjkOgig58tIOeWwxtTiSWGYLckpTlmw1Papz VlhBzEs302V+cFo2xHADqoGfoHHpJcUATonJgSzscVMGauKhaujqRte5NBVcysJPvxFjTThhOaA6 JrqboqyTpToAJ8Rz/PF8o8zpX5Or1yJ9LfNoT3Q6hSJsBE7nDyDylaeibvqo0MLFtvx+RguycgnC sJvnuy28hDilBxytQR7nuNWR6/6IDy5ZNSaY7/oksleJNAiUZ7A51mjoJvqHA2xCMKb5SzxywsBt 70MMJigwggbCMIIEqqADAgECAhBTuH6D4ZyZKJOwm0kc7LjrMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMDcxFDAS BgNVBAoMC1RlbGlhU29uZXJhMR8wHQYDVQQDDBZUZWxpYVNvbmVyYSBSb290IENBIHYxMB4XDTE1 MTAyNzEyMTY0NloXDTI1MTAyNzEyMTY0NlowRzELMAkGA1UEBhMCU0UxETAPBgNVBAoMCEVyaWNz c29uMSUwIwYDVQQDDBxFcmljc3NvbiBOTCBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIENBIHYzMIICIjANBgkqhkiG9w0B AQEFAAOCAg8AMIICCgKCAgEA7PLfAAC4UPKnu9hUt8aT9+PBqjvUw0Y0tLPOXkO2NC0y2XZks9nJ fpWKrNM30k5vu5norG4ZKlF5C+3xc6HuIiGQof1bmFGluNOwmZQwl3rOJ+E6k0rqJJTerjj4WOxA vWVW1yC5S4Ubppk3Q3cYVVuC3qNGsBIXy3/fDL1sc8Ah8zI/JumDpjY8fn/U3CRN6mgNKYrr0sZX 6VXYgrpT05ZrJldkUgUgMKgbIWWEXEASA36pnb5GqD/RMzSgIe8o7YQtIaYB2cmTCLNHjaOL9j1J hNK4bvmbNJ7o58IZYzwNv/G/L/bRosQ9c27U+86DNjrdZnpyaRaeMyVUn3SlYLaFqoObdh/xNF2N S8CXs/PVtO57HBKHMgZqQvsyQJisSocxFqiMj9VK2WhCBbvoTvrNDZvLDlDGuE5RuKwFIpHOVOU5 lCBgUUBsbpWIXwM6kmH/KC1DC5MtQzmvXkbt7KdBXUAxM0JZxf4dS+ACtTDpF9b0vny4DrwaOS0V NXyz1GUOxSqw1wup5dpXbxLZYx1rLRgZqr9uWhLwAPsq66ZQof5GL0gY72Ym8/Tm28MeMqku+/zR zdYsmclT9rOdgdgS3b6OMoc5Op0ZPEv/Mx2lFJAVK674ozw2hiuRTVUmoqBr5AuyCoqCEyn32C7U /V7oqyqx5Yd1c5GsxuOqQFcCAwEAAaOCAbgwggG0MIGKBggrBgEFBQcBAQR+MHwwLQYIKwYBBQUH MAGGIWh0dHA6Ly9vY3NwLnRydXN0LnRlbGlhc29uZXJhLmNvbTBLBggrBgEFBQcwAoY/aHR0cDov L3JlcG9zaXRvcnkudHJ1c3QudGVsaWFzb25lcmEuY29tL3RlbGlhc29uZXJhcm9vdGNhdjEuY2Vy MBIGA1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwVQYDVR0gBE4wTDBKBgwrBgEEAYIPAgMBAQIwOjA4BggrBgEF BQcCARYsaHR0cHM6Ly9yZXBvc2l0b3J5LnRydXN0LnRlbGlhc29uZXJhLmNvbS9DUFMwSwYDVR0f BEQwQjBAoD6gPIY6aHR0cDovL2NybC0zLnRydXN0LnRlbGlhc29uZXJhLmNvbS90ZWxpYXNvbmVy YXJvb3RjYXYxLmNybDAdBgNVHSUEFjAUBggrBgEFBQcDAgYIKwYBBQUHAwQwDgYDVR0PAQH/BAQD AgEGMB0GA1UdDgQWBBQcexmel5x2rCA92NzjkWrj2y2mUzAfBgNVHSMEGDAWgBTwj1k4ALP1j5qW DNXr+nuqF+gTEjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFAAOCAgEAUFhr8dWMO7Quq1dDyIynw8sWmpyF/jWSxBjp HUCyhltoFS7Q1CUBD0bOULWmYjmzRwme5pkjTFXpOJZLf9Han1SBbrVcP0JMhRsAvfWZjcF0l/c/ jqDMqBARxr8OUWOr0ZWa49Lir3QEs2C+CjGge5tzcLqzQ5pjWxudrLkSGe+sAThDnXUWXGYk8udG ZAamJ55drdw96AV9jWQkMrLIVHKkXVG5Etdx0wiAoTLk1fVtLcz11DiaCZSZVPZ3fdSIpIRhDqz8 H4sVprPgvLBdK/ajdbiRsehCzzohay3zbXDDTDGwKkR8KUi8Xt8HDZCRsb/U/C7MC4tVK0SEPOQC o6swZy0rI0RoGzICfsSrZ4JrxANeeSZqCn1A+w0Wz+iqdeP2PVxW0f1rg4/OG2DSl3uB3Q3NT/lD GJtepti+i5CCKEZcdAOZoviu43sLhqsxSpGjzZidESwovuHeP+O2bNwwtz1DTsXThBB3+JJHVjmk iLo900GITb/i7IBdLoo4gZms9s1BQ2tm3CJCmpA2XwBTOB6B8/CtgWUWhyloXd3Wbmv7ZUoqqJFB V9g8Zh5mdZ+RzPTomgCFz/2aNsddI/2G9ZjN4tG6hmocZR2M5f0MhBv3bo6d5XsLlYwiNJjw5GRq Yb8cqqeCaPKkveBJzqgb8ToH7WLoOzmPRCmPlpAxggNQMIIDTAIBATBaMEcxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlNF MREwDwYDVQQKDAhFcmljc3NvbjElMCMGA1UEAwwcRXJpY3Nzb24gTkwgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBDQSB2 MwIPAXUc1ROE7L9MPfu7eEiGMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgggHLMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0B BwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTIxMDkwOTIxMzcyM1owIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFFqgykCaR5l4 VoKVNv5fmJL1+guOMGkGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDFcMFowRzELMAkGA1UEBhMCU0UxETAPBgNVBAoMCEVy aWNzc29uMSUwIwYDVQQDDBxFcmljc3NvbiBOTCBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIENBIHYzAg8BdRzVE4Tsv0w9 +7t4SIYwawYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxXKBaMEcxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlNFMREwDwYDVQQKDAhFcmljc3Nv bjElMCMGA1UEAwwcRXJpY3Nzb24gTkwgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBDQSB2MwIPAXUc1ROE7L9MPfu7eEiG MIGTBgkqhkiG9w0BCQ8xgYUwgYIwCwYJYIZIAWUDBAEqMAsGCWCGSAFlAwQBFjAKBggqhkiG9w0D BzALBglghkgBZQMEAQIwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgFAMAcGBSsOAwIaMAsG CWCGSAFlAwQCAzALBglghkgBZQMEAgIwCwYJYIZIAWUDBAIBMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBAByr 0SfgEt2mutVqin1gk8kc4Kr80qLgeh+sbwwbdK9V4teOlJfK0AM9QWt88sByr8dD35GBkqQWfDFs L3w1tdacwF7OIg9dcpLz/T04Vr1EkscEhM4Q7HkL2la6sVu+xwWKCqySQKINwu6CSeVFrTu8X3rL A0tFfbfPKGHRo/koEaLLHzevmjXJLFsAtzqRFOpIpR/E8ZoFbB9zfFHZq1CPVawDeEbIhtnuwfWs h3bxhTx8pRbXfzrbzfYp1XS1Q1cDTJ7oBHZuqy5TdW3QARL5cC2dWqqKEJKk3nwv4+yLCzw0tghf lKfA3oX63qxIM+rfu/LPR2RjW36bNEpg36UAAAAAAAA= ------=_NextPart_000_08E5_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 15:11:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D3A3A0654 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:11:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GOdyz9oxHgRO for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 279733A0529 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H5CsH4T90z2xNk; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:11:47 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:11:47 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652918307.1004241-6e8f4019a83322d855adfb58585389a6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8DAC595F-8C6E-4853-AB62-86D4ACE96A76@tzi.org> References: To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 22:11:56 -0000 I already gave a partial answer in = = But it sure would be nice to get an update on where we are with respect = to strengthening the idnits implementation and backend. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 9 15:37:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F613A09B5 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:37:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.069 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.069 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7xaF9kk9V9iB for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECB653A09A4 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 189MbU9I013628 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 17:37:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631227050; bh=wNlnXQK2G6ZnmuC9/ktwwp9GD2i0Y5d8j6r5/smFhtY=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=apqrSQXWzPoOrWNuhjojklMQHuovNh6S4SheIfF7UUHXX6k5FTIhtUy4JPZ5ktpTT HR5uPlTSivnfoVmtuhf3UydH+i+cMHzAG6Ldx7QtJGwh2096gFwEAm5iKLNV0GSTbC yLvc6je2LCZS5QTOf6DQvMursZl1ybqN+s239q08= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <4b60bc9b-f907-a155-ace2-7db2e7f222a2@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 17:37:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BE3A5E78E0C7F2F5FAAA7000" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 22:37:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BE3A5E78E0C7F2F5FAAA7000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Balazs - Please try using https://www.ietf.org/tools/idnits instead. I do not currently get the warning you are seeing when I use that instance of the service. On 9/9/21 4:37 PM, Balázs Lengyel wrote: > > Hello, > > I am trying to check a new version of my > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18 (attached). > > I tried to check the draft running the web based idnits tool. > https://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ > > > The draft’s previous version did not have any idnits errors or > warnings. Now suddenly I get: > == Couldn't figure out when the document was first submitted -- there may >      comments or warnings related to the use of a disclaimer for pre-RFC5378 >      work that could not be issued because of this.  Please check the Legal >      Provisions document athttps://trustee.ietf.org/license-info to determine >      if you need the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer. > I did not change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and > how to get rid of it? > It is impossible to understand the problem and how to handle it from > this error message. > Please help, Balazs > > -- > > Balazs Lengyel                    Senior > Specialist                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd. > > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: > Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------BE3A5E78E0C7F2F5FAAA7000 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I do not currently get the warning you are seeing when I use that instance of the service.

On 9/9/21 4:37 PM, Balázs Lengyel wrote:

Hello,

I am trying to check a new version of my draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18 (attached).

I tried to check the draft running the web based idnits tool. https://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/

 
The draft’s previous version did not have any idnits errors or warnings. Now suddenly I get: 
 
== Couldn't figure out when the document was first submitted -- there may
     comments or warnings related to the use of a disclaimer for pre-RFC5378
     work that could not be issued because of this.  Please check the Legal
     Provisions document at https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info to determine
     if you need the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer.
I did not change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and how to get rid of it?
It is impossible to understand the problem and how to handle it from this error message. 
 
Please help, Balazs

 

 

--

Balazs Lengyel                    Senior Specialist                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.

Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com

 


___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--------------BE3A5E78E0C7F2F5FAAA7000-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 15:45:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B28D3A09BD for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:45:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8g7Af4JC46CK for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E751F3A09D1 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 189Mj4Hi016355 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 17:45:04 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631227504; bh=IZMybW5t7gyNx97HiOx99YrebUwcXVIfi0vN015U0UI=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=gnn5ibV9J0FwSHElmn6C4O9CUYSRV4MXRR1cN4uNBEOvBnyMFh4ybnTdMIBotcmEr 0nvH8vf0YMjWPJPfklvkeLA7sQeDQPNnS+Pt6mAl0lRhW79/Qq9c5YeUpuvk9IKBoH MHNBeOiky7ywykLX4lOfYrpbC9rnPats1WqKpAaA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <8DAC595F-8C6E-4853-AB62-86D4ACE96A76@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 17:44:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8DAC595F-8C6E-4853-AB62-86D4ACE96A76@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 22:45:12 -0000 I think the incremental improvement of the existing idnits that you are=20 asking for here has already taken place. The version running at www.ietf.org feeds off of the datatracker. I'll=20 follow up on improving what happens when someone uses the tools.ietf.org = url. Work on completely replacing the current implementation is underway. RjS On 9/9/21 5:11 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > I already gave a partial answer in > > But it sure would be nice to get an update on where we are with respect= to strengthening the idnits implementation and backend. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Thu Sep 9 19:43:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32BF63A1407 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:43:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wIkxK9MNpUny for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC35A3A1406 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 804A5548049 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:42:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 726B34E0AE4; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:42:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:42:54 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Propose slides for interims datatracker option ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 02:43:08 -0000 Hi folks - was just wondering if there is a datatracker option to propose slides for interrims, because if there is, then it is hiding itself well from me ;-) If not, then it would be lovely to also get this option.. (but wouldn't want to assign a priority to it relative to anything els. Just observing) Cheers toerless From nobody Thu Sep 9 23:04:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 895363A1B83 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 23:04:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zLuRn-7EI70J for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 23:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75E843A1B82 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 23:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H5QL703qjz2xMw; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:03:58 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:03:58 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Propose slides for interims datatracker option ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 06:04:10 -0000 On 10. Sep 2021, at 04:42, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 > Hi folks - was just wondering if there is a datatracker option to=20 > propose slides for interrims, because if there is, then it is hiding = itself > well from me ;-) It is indeed well-hidden. Go to: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/upcoming Log in to datatracker (!). In the column =E2=80=9Cmeetings=E2=80=9D, click on the meeting of your = choice, say: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2021-core-10/session/core Click =E2=80=9CPropose slides=E2=80=9D. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 9 23:19:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D35D3A1BF8 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 23:19:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DS9ifNyAIUB7 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 23:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5BB73A1BF6 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 23:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H5Qh95jMnz2xH0; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:19:37 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:19:37 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <00A950E3-8FD4-4D51-95F5-C870D34FA413@tzi.org> References: To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Am I logged in? (Re: Propose slides for interims datatracker option ?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 06:19:49 -0000 On 10. Sep 2021, at 08:03, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > Log in to datatracker (!). =E2=80=A6 and that line is part of a general annoyance with datatracker. There are many functions that only work (or change behavior) if you are = logged in. These functions are simply not shown (e.g., propose slides) or silently = work differently if you are not. Normally, you are still logged in with datatracker from the last thing = you did there. But random events can log you out, and it takes some time to notice that = the weirds behavior you are seeing from datatracker is because it = doesn=E2=80=99t work right any more when logged out. I now have this nervous glance to the menu bar whenever I=E2=80=99m = using datatracker =E2=80=94 does it say =E2=80=9CUser=E2=80=9D or = =E2=80=9Ccabo@tzi.org=E2=80=9D. At least the visualization of being properly logged in might be stronger = (change colour of the menu bar etc.) to alert one that datatracker is = not going to work right. Functions that are disabled without login could also still be shown and = ask for login when invoked. (But maybe the trapdoor effect is intended, to fend off the unwashed? Also, this probably doesn=E2=80=99t make sense for minority functions = like those afforded to WG chairs and ADs.) (A weakly related gripe is that functions that depend on datatracker = login like meetecho are structured in a way that the detour through = datatracker requires explicit confirmation =E2=80=94 which is fine for = random relying parties using the datatracker OAuth, but should not be = necessary for core IETF functions.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Sep 10 11:03:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45D23A11FA for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:03:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z9yJZEbU7CJ0 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 843533A11F8 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D98A54804A; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:03:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 44B254E0C4D; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:03:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:03:40 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <00A950E3-8FD4-4D51-95F5-C870D34FA413@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <00A950E3-8FD4-4D51-95F5-C870D34FA413@tzi.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Am I logged in? (Re: Propose slides for interims datatracker option ?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:03:54 -0000 Thanks Carsten. I agree with your points about the GUI being confusing. Unfortunately, i have to confess that i was probably yesterday evening just blind to see the "Propose Slides" button at the bottom of the material page.. Not sure *sigh*... But i am pretty sure i was logged in yesterday too. But good to know its all consistent with normal meetings. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 08:19:37AM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 10. Sep 2021, at 08:03, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > > > Log in to datatracker (!). > > … and that line is part of a general annoyance with datatracker. > > There are many functions that only work (or change behavior) if you are logged in. > These functions are simply not shown (e.g., propose slides) or silently work differently if you are not. > > Normally, you are still logged in with datatracker from the last thing you did there. > But random events can log you out, and it takes some time to notice that the weirds behavior you are seeing from datatracker is because it doesn’t work right any more when logged out. > > I now have this nervous glance to the menu bar whenever I’m using datatracker — does it say “User†or “cabo@tzi.orgâ€. > At least the visualization of being properly logged in might be stronger (change colour of the menu bar etc.) to alert one that datatracker is not going to work right. > > Functions that are disabled without login could also still be shown and ask for login when invoked. > (But maybe the trapdoor effect is intended, to fend off the unwashed? > Also, this probably doesn’t make sense for minority functions like those afforded to WG chairs and ADs.) > > (A weakly related gripe is that functions that depend on datatracker login like meetecho are structured in a way that the detour through datatracker requires explicit confirmation — which is fine for random relying parties using the datatracker OAuth, but should not be necessary for core IETF functions.) > > Grüße, Carsten -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Sep 13 13:55:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A523A0D24 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:55:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IMVBW6Aib0WC for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53F003A0D1E for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388B9471C6A7 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:55:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tcq2W64-pQQH for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CF8DC471C69E for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:55:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-Id: <48194B77-AC9A-425D-9E85-12FA33A66E8A@ietf.org> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 08:55:05 +1200 To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Design workshops - concept for discussion tomorrow X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 20:55:16 -0000 Hi All Robert and I want to discuss at the tools meeting tomorrow a proposal = for a series of design workshops that help plan future development for a = specific topic. The workshop would include a presentation on each topic = and the various components, current requirements, known issues, existing = plans and ideas, then open up for a general discussion on each of these. = The workshop would be written up, shared and that writeup referred to = as the plan develops and in future community discussions. We are imagining a 2-3 hour remote workshop, open to all. The topics we have identified so far are: 0. Mail processing - IDN support - What a Mailman 3 migration would require - What would be different with Mailman 3 - what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain - Spam abatement - Virus scanning - Spamassassin - Postconfirm - Use of mailman's mechanisms - Ability to moderate a given participant - DMARC rewriting - Alias maintenance (-chairs@, -authors@, etc.) 1. Mail archive and related user interfaces - Mail archive tool usage and issues - Potential mail archive tool improvements - Possible integration of IM chat logs - Statistics endpoint (# posts per list per day, etc.) - Usage of IMAP - Self-service subscription management in Datatracker 2. RFC and I-D publication - Documenting the different sites and different access mechanisms - Varying URL constructs across those sites - SEO and directing people to the authoritative site - doc.ietf.org idea 3. Datatracker refactoring - Current objects: document, group, person, etc - Adding an optional 'affiliation' to person - Making RFCs a separate document type - Current interfaces: agenda, submission, etc - Possible new interface to find a person - Making the agenda interface mobile friendly - Possible integration of CodiMD-like interface directly into = Datatracker - Role management - Document roles - What could be removed? Happy to take comments now or at our meeting tomorow. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Tue Sep 14 11:31:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77DF3A2847; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:31:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=telefonica.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L2fkiHlAWkS7; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05on2092.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.21.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7FB93A2846; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:31:31 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=VC2kj9LUk8RUw0ZA4DMRlRQj6auUpMyni4eNi6Poeo3u6b2uNIUBlB5JR4in6nNgwVkAo+Xb2Vyp+n+64885xOYtfpzYdaMTAVJ7sYIW6RW2Njhz57FYG0J9sdLpErGwgv6z62M/W+E8IavzcQpXy5BohUULMKMpUAt6yPisTDNCVhauWXQqSySaEIvn9gats1RgTb7SwGITEbsQk70PJQWVC+OjWEfJ41KMzmRGZ+SLhLszVL71XtCZo54X0TeIQ9v079/wGGClD1mVtWvUDWdXmyQ7iEDCWyblt9QBbSxtbwV79Vx5mrsysyu4uBths9eXMi2CMJYYeD1fPzxcHQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=0Hzy2Z0j31QRe2EASfJpvjxyq27zT3AQpg3m5U83tno=; b=ViGJ8EGlPVovzq2f40v3kvGuZRyI2hEJInZSuJ+rWvsujx5EgFEhJaNDOnyzotKoaLsyy2ELmxqs4wm8uFsftYZtuCMoRucNrPW0g/DMV9nrTLrGzR8R4BdOlGsYte2KXhzROeT8Tyx9Eava4xuiod4UJuCX0r34imI14OVefhPYzahd1CvUc5ayVqADv1ihYmmbVa2NN+EvezL2aNLz9nESXPlIjCSjDwRgJTJbTv5STuaO5Xi6TA5a3/eUAzN2/3kw/oGk47Ue4Q4ZFdqiBoxQHOUeoR+McxO1HN2q/4HtJW8rmZVJbqgYKd2ZsoXsfeLPzu1yQTsdKPJs5pIhKA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=telefonica.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=telefonica.com; dkim=pass header.d=telefonica.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telefonica.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=0Hzy2Z0j31QRe2EASfJpvjxyq27zT3AQpg3m5U83tno=; b=paiXv4wkkQNXJTtffanXdwH+015doQgMsbIg673QjsIEinnfxyb2fECnqPBv2z33nu/B3xN6LqAWSfP267T0eIk85OKYkhACd3fIRoN/8QJZGYGaChvf6cIQv1/PziGreOw8o5mXhfsRRLfaqy2lQUM3LqvEbJUJDtOE3fi7XoI= Received: from PAXPR06MB7872.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:102:1a3::9) by PR1PR06MB4876.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:102:d::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4500.14; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:31:28 +0000 Received: from PAXPR06MB7872.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc1e:4a84:4569:af43]) by PAXPR06MB7872.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc1e:4a84:4569:af43%8]) with mapi id 15.20.4500.018; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:31:28 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Oscar_Gonz=E1lez_de_Dios?= To: Jay Daley , tools-discuss Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Design workshops - concept for discussion tomorrow Thread-Index: AQHXqOGwSascn7qoOkq+lB8xEBr3B6uj12OQ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:31:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <48194B77-AC9A-425D-9E85-12FA33A66E8A@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <48194B77-AC9A-425D-9E85-12FA33A66E8A@ietf.org> Accept-Language: es-ES, en-US Content-Language: es-ES X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=telefonica.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b60bae56-3a4b-4bfe-21d7-08d977adde16 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: PR1PR06MB4876: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:PAXPR06MB7872.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(33656002)(86362001)(38070700005)(2906002)(26005)(66476007)(508600001)(66574015)(76116006)(9686003)(8936002)(55016002)(966005)(5660300002)(66946007)(450100002)(122000001)(38100700002)(52536014)(83380400001)(186003)(66446008)(66556008)(8676002)(64756008)(7696005)(6506007)(71200400001)(316002)(110136005)(9010500006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?iso-8859-1?Q?N7ZrmhgZ1se/qKfiLSB7mIiCsc24KN/Xt5u6P7HT4H95+UITKWjKB96nLU?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?pisbfwakExNYyP5ssLybbMlwSpLkxrzYSJCu3hV+TZ4R2wwdPFzyufVEIz?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?elvCbBXoZ0gunPEQQjzT9edflgM0vSV8/hiXpuVzeJML/C3ZJ5TlVJuU+4?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?HueiYSgif5sgaY72idwamsdpESUDjjzYHnAzC35BGh4mjIhoIdJp9Lw7sg?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ep5Mi4vjc6+2Xqz0iRG8MbkkPK4n3McQfojDrLSo1PJdKY0PKpXJ8hdQUH?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?YkezbV6KpSn46C7PCKf1iwtwXfngsRit/e+sv87i1PJ6mRyqmBZ1Pi+OqT?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fbw4bI+qPkVCHRXBCN6N1up8LHenmDUt5ArUvaegjCgg+KOjQleLQiHmwf?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?jOUpOYo4PR9LYz0hNaxVoHeDoWajnsqCbBbJMR94U4YZgC2KbF97zJvmuZ?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ZqrYDul8UCXUVgVxGOdfidzkn35NroNlfQzIfBWN+SK4bXqWh9U65Ixpft?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?iA59aYPsF5En6ZW12GwYcvT7lq72nVymAFkpRc/fhGUamPL3qqh0xgoxj5?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?rup32v20FNE8jMUQhBA0TGq9jA8GJJue7KM2dcQrWlVhrQ+wVQQmaOcWZb?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?NY+AXm8Mmk0Cu+OKST76bzriHSPmSgzE1pQUjWuyQ14+9d/VkvCpSFtce5?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?E1/bhWpsefCUqlCSDz/YFSO463e6QImf1IAtBd6i77rPkf7gvdjU6/WFLE?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?EP5ak8TfCuy990YdXcBucLecB1PHPxSy4rC2grORFPNO1nUMDl/ctZJjrL?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?33n8Ge18X1w21pOkW6u/rGUSsYPhMVyUa+OFqJ3wPxpFnSmoadwn61eQgx?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?JM58ndFkvHPDLsPNemYe8W2RCIBzcmw4smnT2I/CHytLpJOFsJBK/xSI1j?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?D8ekHqvERsHgY6Nf6PpfHcRUTx9K4obJq54A16gur3a3Rf5RRy1aSeLZ7P?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Q7JLEptEBtfYxjYZelRXawICENKP0m6iwCNeVRN6BFJLAsVMcUVnJZtPHM?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?x2vYdgNueOZBqXRCZxPE9lUJVuzyP+uwrkI7VTIz91hR0kESPOUpsTtmE3?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?jtV+qJN9/I8EzfGYnzRd/Qi0V+5z1yZIKv+6bpmXSav36IOwsL+0XvM1KS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?GpuOlMyIlxi7360jPaUBI6AYhIMmr7kchbRbN40TOI3QwzccORYp9DFgXc?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?vLihJwbzwixQJVD+ksrasLaD2OuUffglEnuVFHIQ61UT0cmuJDcOKyqZTW?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?RiziDSBW2Cw1gqbS/FU6EJ6G16+5R/qUx34VHVHiHiggYgzegsx6SVG+BU?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?fV2H/yE3qB?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: telefonica.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: PAXPR06MB7872.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b60bae56-3a4b-4bfe-21d7-08d977adde16 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2021 18:31:28.7585 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9744600e-3e04-492e-baa1-25ec245c6f10 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: zKjodIdahjqSEw5RrhBI4RHYA3HcdojYq9OP4Qgdt+opMtZEHq9XYXFTwSCcv4odH9Hdqe+T/dkKgU0N0lHF/u0jJI1yJBNm2APyNPcuoxq9ssvfeu/fCYZD7Q180Kb/ X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PR1PR06MB4876 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Design workshops - concept for discussion tomorrow X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:31:38 -0000 Hi all, As now it is a common practice in some IETF drafts to have comments= and contributions tracked in github via issues and pull requests (full gui= dance documented in RFC 8874), would it make sense to incorporate in datat= racker a potential integration with github? For example incorporate a query= of the issues /PRs of the draft complementary to current mailing list quer= y (or even maintaining a copy of the issues for the records). Best Regards, Oscar -----Mensaje original----- De: Tools-discuss En nombre de Jay Daley Enviado el: lunes, 13 de septiembre de 2021 22:55 Para: tools-discuss Asunto: [Tools-discuss] Design workshops - concept for discussion tomorrow Hi All Robert and I want to discuss at the tools meeting tomorrow a proposal for a= series of design workshops that help plan future development for a specifi= c topic. The workshop would include a presentation on each topic and the v= arious components, current requirements, known issues, existing plans and i= deas, then open up for a general discussion on each of these. The workshop= would be written up, shared and that writeup referred to as the plan devel= ops and in future community discussions. We are imagining a 2-3 hour remote workshop, open to all. The topics we have identified so far are: 0. Mail processing - IDN support - What a Mailman 3 migration would require - What would be different with Mailman 3 - what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain - Spam abatement - Virus scanning - Spamassassin - Postconfirm - Use of mailman's mechanisms - Ability to moderate a given participant - DMARC rewriting - Alias maintenance (-chairs@, -authors@, etc.) 1. Mail archive and related user interfaces - Mail archive tool usage and issues - Potential mail archive tool improvements - Possible integration of IM chat logs - Statistics endpoint (# posts per list per day, etc.) - Usage of IMAP - Self-service subscription management in Datatracker 2. RFC and I-D publication - Documenting the different sites and different access mechanisms - Varying URL constructs across those sites - SEO and directing people to the authoritative site - doc.ietf.org idea 3. Datatracker refactoring - Current objects: document, group, person, etc - Adding an optional 'affiliation' to person - Making RFCs a separate document type - Current interfaces: agenda, submission, etc - Possible new interface to find a person - Making the agenda interface mobile friendly - Possible integration of CodiMD-like interface directly into Datatracker - Role management - Document roles - What could be removed? Happy to take comments now or at our meeting tomorow. Jay -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org ___________________________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org This list is for discus= sion, not for action requests or bug reports. * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org List info (inclu= ding how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discu= ss ________________________________ Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus= ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind= icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o= copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci= =F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo = comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti= al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named = above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are= hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this co= mmunication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission = in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you h= ave received this communication in error and then delete it. Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio= , pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =E9 para uso ex= clusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o des= tinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, div= ulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode estar proibida em virtude= da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe = que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destru= i=E7=E3o From nobody Tue Sep 14 11:34:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752BE3A2860; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:34:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lQZ_DjNtll-o; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 120F43A111D; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122330.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18EGZi23021183; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:34:31 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=Raf0uYlAgtPac8o5zlpg7d+BL3/tVKgxpk5tP1cxeps=; b=R1qEVf8hSESz5FWDiZyWu8VTxJa8LGdb43peECJJMm/tsfKgxAk1oEmySrZAy3yjGxAf RtUz2ibUxj2l38BEy9Lk4E4rri/psFdCcYRe0PG/f85WExQyW71hX1twN7CtUrgQv6sb vQwLe7NZJ67ROY1W7A4o+3/lvsSqqNAkfbidGWJX5Mh1KBxAeHXrNxTef3MDRFEYXicQ JhCQy6rHozPS1uJnDuut8ZtHlsfnfitySvgR3iGStGv0Nv5B4uMKuEh89QeMUAWoEnXO wkAKTmhI2NVsBxCeBSFtAS+Lu6lm6Ex94KczGPXDa3csybWerTXSj5FsQo4odWZaX1ZH Vw== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint6 (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [184.51.33.61] (may be forged)) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3b2yd2ja97-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:34:31 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18EIJa0V012139; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:34:30 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3b0qsywey7-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:34:30 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:34:29 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:34:29 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: =?utf-8?B?T3NjYXIgR29uesOhbGV6IGRlIERpb3M=?= , Jay Daley , tools-discuss Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Design workshops - concept for discussion tomorrow Thread-Index: AQHXqOGtSWOwJTt2AUiTybg5cZMBhKukHsAA//+9yIA= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:34:28 +0000 Message-ID: <8280E0A9-73D3-4C2A-B288-3F707C12CDAF@akamai.com> References: <48194B77-AC9A-425D-9E85-12FA33A66E8A@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.53.21090501 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <389394511DA5F04797B11C270023BBC7@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-14_07:2021-09-14, 2021-09-14 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=665 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109140105 X-Proofpoint-GUID: Vp7Zag8UtveismeaEE5r-ENb_NtQNF-l X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Vp7Zag8UtveismeaEE5r-ENb_NtQNF-l X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-14_07,2021-09-14_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=611 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1011 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109140106 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.61) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Design workshops - concept for discussion tomorrow X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:34:38 -0000 WW91IGNhbiBkbyB0aGF0IGFscmVhZHksIGJ5IGRlZmluaW5nIGFuICJleHRlcm5hbCByZWZlcmVu Y2UiICBUaGV5J3JlIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBhdCB0aGUgV0cgYW5kIGRvY3VtZW50IGxldmVsLiAgQSBm ZXcgc3RhbmRhcmRzIGV4dC1yZWZzIGFyZSBhbHJlYWR5IGRlZmluZWQsIGluY2x1ZGluZyBHaXRI dWIgcmVwby4NCg0KDQo= From nobody Wed Sep 15 09:14:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D63273A207A; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:14:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n1TF_VOiGnoC; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA33A3A2072; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18FGESdp024606 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:14:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631722469; bh=UocPqsojaWfSY1TXlPET4qzluIyqswpRZsrjm1azkZg=; h=To:Cc:Reply-To:From:Subject:Date; b=KdvI618rd+6CwE3gH/5YcpqbhicVDOOXZAKdIRvHtNgXLih22dYxzQIk03gcmDqVl MIOlxmdIiu60yUclDtzpMLsu9RqThgLKQoAXLR3eBFJzrpr45t0ukqlnpawl/FsmhQ SF0vPd9BTbmyso/kwSSLS11WNPwOd7MQc583USn4= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss Cc: ietf@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Reply-To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <3683aa58-42e4-c047-5dbc-6f388a986d6a@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:14:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Closing the chat trial instances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:14:37 -0000 All - We are turning off the chat trial instances. This includes: xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, matrix-trial1.ief.org, and zulip-trial1.ietf.org We've kept them running quite a bit longer than originally planned, and we think we have the information we needed to gather from them. Going forward: We are in the process of setting up a standing Zulip server and will investigate whether we can integrate that directly with Meetecho as the backend for messaging during Meetecho sessions. We will have XMPP-Zulip bridging in place as long as both services are active. See the service plan at https://github.com/rjsparks/zulip-implementation/blob/main/Service-Plan.md We received feedback from a small number of people that providing a Jabber login service was useful, but haven't seen a lot of use of it. We're not currently planning on providing this service going forward. Anyone relying on it should take advantage of other existing services. There is an updated list of alternatives at https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/groupchat/. We are not planning to continue provide a Matrix service. Interest was limited, and it presented a more difficult set of operational challenges. See https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/AI5hBp1qnLAH-S9T7XhLF-omFS0/ We have heard and continue to keep in mind the feedback to prefer IETF standards. Timing: The matrix trial server will be taken down now. The xmpp trial server will be taken down in two weeks, giving the few people who had been using it an opportunity to set up something else. The zulip trial server will be taken down shortly after the standing server is made available to the community. Please take care to send all discussion to tools-discuss@ietf.org RjS From nobody Wed Sep 15 11:22:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359E83A098D; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:21:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6jGM9p-lkXdD; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 857EE3A0989; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18FILqwB071184 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:21:53 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631730113; bh=4r9L8aTxnzUoytT7u1OtjC8VWV3DHYQUCjxd0ixgbV8=; h=To:Cc:Reply-To:From:Subject:Date; b=n9PduH4bWc0iB/QTF1fF1uYmCcXA7ON7j0eo1rxYMhz7MoFCUrva928jCvLNSRvB1 M/d4vuQHh+a/tQRW9iDxW9X9n4ihU8pbW2bIEqHJPY0c7fKP8GVS/7kyWQFS31z6dw q+XuJaH/spUSDX4bGK1fpqxDNj9ErRCo4egFHlho= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss Cc: ietf@ietf.org, Working Chairs Reply-To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:21:47 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:22:00 -0000 Be aware that any content at notes.ietf.org is intended to be ephemeral. We expect the content to remain available as long as we are running the service, but there is no guarantee it will be preserved. At some point in the future, it may be replaced with another service, and the content will not be automatically extracted. Anything that should be archived needs to be stored at an archival service. For instance, minutes should be captured in the datatracker as minutes documents. If it isn't obvious where to keep any given content, contact a relevant member of the leadership. Please keep in mind that the content at notes.ietf.org may not be there in the future as you choose share URLs to it in other places. Robert Sparks Tools team chair From nobody Wed Sep 15 11:27:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F5EA3A09F0; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:27:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cgJfVPRn4_lT; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD7D43A09EA; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18FIRAmm073193 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:27:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631730431; bh=P8iEjVTBYf89QfLFpsS8giSZEJR3k39bTSXWr2STOnY=; h=To:Cc:Reply-To:From:Subject:Date; b=tlE2hxYgBMid3pu3OG5UqtuXy+mJd8/zGhbnLfACTqw79o6ALLQjQPa6c21nVx1M7 +ZdH+hkbZWNIfPThp5Ke0l4vNQhAgmcjPtsl1gN5KfdPT33zlbATT3OtDAbRWnyp9v WM+lulCBbd9lmWRjDemSuzFmkW61vh5h+OIL2MGA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss Cc: ietf@ietf.org, Working Chairs Reply-To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <2b7729b5-804a-9144-9284-4d141f45fd89@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:27:05 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] etherpad.ietf.org will be shut down X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:27:19 -0000 The etherpad service has been replaced by the service at notes.ietf.org (previously codimd.ietf.org). etherpad.ietf.org will be taken down in just over two weeks (on or soon after October 1). Any content you wish to preserve that's at etherpad.ietf.org should be moved to an appropriate place. Active notes that are not intended to be archival can be moved to notes.ietf.org. See for a discussion of what to do with content that should be archived. We will not be attempting automatic extraction of content from etherpad.ietf.org. We will redirect etherpad.ietf.org to the main page of notes.ietf.org. Robert Sparks Tools team chair From nobody Wed Sep 15 11:32:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34DB3A0A20 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:32:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SiZNkF-64NLi for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11F463A0A90 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18FGCXWp002484 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 19:31:54 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=UxAr07L9HbDGPSBf8aDLie5VE0lcG+E0i93IHEuTPdg=; b=aAI/11+zeC5SHCWvMvhoi37ADZ+vWrw2z7nqStPL5eUJiZZY6h/oJmlolxN0+MG8tTme YC47sGJZIXE3RqSsCQa14J0hmv4Drp0tm/cgWwu3I7svZtn6x2gj7EetPjnHhWMwGtKS +IZaR1dcfr3rM6w7V9JjFdTEGVkbNKG55sfZMGBQ/PEC5VF8gsudxPmUy0DzeKgapqY5 94VBGdWQa0SfRO0hsUuu5dfa3yJV9871PtQAVwXwTTNCqzKMH9gMIDrALnV/HtUgg0Nh 982253lkhpQA3en6j02hZcnn3mhpBD+RufPD6tWXylv5pKz8/haZUcoyttu5uoivaSQ1 Xw== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint6 (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [184.51.33.61] (may be forged)) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 3b3drmv0rq-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 19:31:54 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18FIK8Aw032591 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 14:31:53 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3b360kh8ep-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 14:31:53 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 14:31:52 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 14:31:52 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: tools-discuss Thread-Topic: Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival Thread-Index: AQHXql6ZiZuY8c4H7kuEyNE56hVlTaulayoA Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:31:52 +0000 Message-ID: <164A0B3B-EBC4-4E94-9EAC-12851C71615D@akamai.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.53.21090501 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-15_05:2021-09-15, 2021-09-15 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=824 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109150106 X-Proofpoint-GUID: hZtvHwm4eTSR907A32PwIqVgC7Iod0jJ X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: hZtvHwm4eTSR907A32PwIqVgC7Iod0jJ X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-15_05,2021-09-15_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxlogscore=757 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109150106 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.61) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:32:03 -0000 SSBtYWRlIGFuIGVuaGFuY2VtZW50IHJlcXVlc3Qgb24gaGVkZ2Vkb2MgMi4wLCBodHRwczovL2dp dGh1Yi5jb20vaGVkZ2Vkb2MvaGVkZ2Vkb2MvaXNzdWVzLzE2MzcNCg0KDQrvu79PbiA5LzE1LzIx LCAyOjIyIFBNLCAiUm9iZXJ0IFNwYXJrcyIgPHJqc3BhcmtzQG5vc3RydW0uY29tPiB3cm90ZToN Cg0KICAgIEJlIGF3YXJlIHRoYXQgYW55IGNvbnRlbnQgYXQgbm90ZXMuaWV0Zi5vcmcgaXMgaW50 ZW5kZWQgdG8gYmUgZXBoZW1lcmFsLg0KDQouLi4NCg0KDQo= From nobody Wed Sep 15 12:07:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB8CE3A0802 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:07:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XX4KEOUvAQ_h for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR05-AM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am6eur05on2096.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.22.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 701273A07F9 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:07:49 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=NjJywzIAAwRWks6unWiedhs+6CQQczMAToPKYjfcDbywC9ZICP+e4udl5OVXc5+cMCRqWnzgO93Q0bm55LCr2/gsvKc5OmPoexmZxgIuZw2GyNvMEzTsUh9BQbrPrBYPfNiUyxS5kKK7PcyAWPDmfyLoXRZbpdp5uSz6kHBUDzSrYvJR8BIi4y7W8NybhG81HACNTVVc59vYvyNcWf0OzM3Z+6V9murv78civ8lNam5UhCkIukRMVqmsSv0Vx5Y2d34XsupsRqR9BP6h/gFLFEYp1uwNpJPoGtqfaLwDPajXU1ZVHTPuS5QkSstmjK+IMJg2HlCfEw2rLBCQ2tjq6w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=Ts6zPimMFW3K/2GEUF8vzIQySu0O5dDxJDQh3UZHcDQ=; b=EDVQD2cRMJMxr43t4B6q2o60KgVcksjnYXAVa6AOjy+kPxZrIW3Z+jQsJOVap/iWGxYZu6DoDvVlffqEhD3j7LM8pPpFt9+ZkK/Gi0m+9g9MJHBLwwiQeuagt57Cq3wa4aIO1V54QQcjSdqbxiIqETea68Su6OHGR1rH5bkJy7wl7lsShV7yJxh0aZdLZQ77n3DLCZVJRZ7qMWO3vHtM8/gAG4uz+lXbMtTnRvkGos8mLS+Gcc4JIkmvbyYBGFu+c8BNrq/poahEd8pIRwDTCHTe9Lg7ak+ykFsfpJBsFfmwcMZjgGGHdX6nkPSFO2twrU4ti+sJplDAJo5aPCqRKQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Ts6zPimMFW3K/2GEUF8vzIQySu0O5dDxJDQh3UZHcDQ=; b=h7pQ/8XrXXRXXZHaur0zEHIbE/B3eR0LC4qngI2AxTnmBWPKT3PDHgi4QgqtJU6vGcsArpw87boMZI5B7dV5e1NLImET4pCEqNMBVvMDOYsXIExhonnzXchIRKR/goOW0q9xFQRLN9tsvfIv9/Z+iEStLtrl4biN4XVnaw61YWdjILIpKHyLR8xU38/4KT/2KEeTkMJvPs/dFq+uPYGyvKYulk8ukTkZB0kdLpa4e7X50MSOkd/zuVRpl1akEnyAPoeyFYEsES0Q9OaqKdOiSLB4bORfpXZ0SqnuXRieRK3XN3heA/9s6ETJErwCiaIEXpSZlr5/VtgGM1nfJAj00w== Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB9PR02MB6859.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:216::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4500.14; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 19:07:45 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4198:a9d1:7246:8272]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4198:a9d1:7246:8272%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4500.019; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 19:07:45 +0000 To: tools-discuss References: <3683aa58-42e4-c047-5dbc-6f388a986d6a@nostrum.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <8c02bd21-8574-eaf7-d890-74b060d05174@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:07:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 In-Reply-To: <3683aa58-42e4-c047-5dbc-6f388a986d6a@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TxG5nezmlA1ZGIKfHXp4r2jGKcgsVyLK0" X-ClientProxiedBy: DB3PR06CA0005.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:8:1::18) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [10.244.2.124] (95.45.153.252) by DB3PR06CA0005.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:8:1::18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4523.14 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 19:07:44 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: b37eb869-d431-4db2-b532-08d9787c1923 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB9PR02MB6859: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:5797; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: IZ2r0VMK/7oYgtuYzK+dL1cLvCr8jy1wuetNIP6+2S/n6IOTyLhNT1ThrNVlAo/Cu05sohwqvaFPFPFAbglcACn2g/NA50695mCmtCaOBfGeEHYimqVooePppP/7TWDmq+/uQjYkTv4SxP61Xno8atjwEodPwe7OjE8cBUGdqr5R0yOlDOSzZZAJzaQqp52AAQpN0dl1yrG5R/LMlU5VCujPLuVuJninDjsyIgzvnvKSQEG7a5MtijO9NrDLpejB00/GlygBCZcvGetlgjYPd14AIidLLdsWY5USFkybODcoG4MwKBLdIaXhCeKuF70Frkcj1+wRo9c7sFHpvyUTBVwz3qLDontgxp5R61N80xbTs5olbsbqsFi7uwYCoon5j62pcao4Fj2D+0VS9yXbR007IPO15HSe74+skNII6J2VIPk1RU+k0Ha4USKfLlyrRnYru+sP6NevX5I7HBDvrULQXzbiMYPVHkYULnx8oIdPiRZZmCu68hw10YdIZ9pGuWkG0CyQzIIFYJtS1Hrpc/d2wT8Yjo3k2Y6rP40emzBqzC2ti028wdnOFRH6KxA3GnrW7hun4zLMexAadsOplPyiYFJGkLeNtQmTfFvv9pyo5uvzW/+1tU4kr++UGwI4t88Dx7/Oc/qXv+MzxKKvdJMBpQyXWYJn+tuxer9cofCCJcVVM+RgrAA5Lf/qGj5qXE0MsW6HE/8v3p4jONJiXF+nlKLtF2SkQbDYs7bGj3P4m2k221MW3S0Tbfkm7xfUVZRVloiXpPq5pcRpU+KF3fJcVStJP4DeAsQajKeEZaNsoLj95zXL6+qbzwpyjk8k8dLWXN/hZ53IF08nCCIHK5ie5NorfWeF4YCZ6W0tDuI= X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(396003)(346002)(366004)(136003)(39860400002)(376002)(956004)(66946007)(66616009)(33964004)(66476007)(53546011)(8936002)(2616005)(83380400001)(2906002)(31686004)(186003)(6916009)(316002)(235185007)(5660300002)(8676002)(86362001)(478600001)(31696002)(966005)(26005)(16576012)(21480400003)(66556008)(38100700002)(44832011)(36756003)(6486002)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?K015b0lMbWptMmFLbnJFTUV4b2pWTzBWMlN5VjV2NGF5VjdCclNUYjhpUnVD?= =?utf-8?B?VWVia3FtMGIxbXJiQUhVOURsRllGZGlFZkJQNVhpZ2dCUUFaMmpjMWYxRFBM?= =?utf-8?B?TlVBOFMrb2FiUzUwUm4rOC92V2tjbHgvSHRiUHhjVlZnT3lTYkcyOUR5ZGJN?= =?utf-8?B?Y3NweXAvODBqZXU2RmEwQVVhTFhYMGJvMTlFUUtBRzB0MDhGSFM0MDFUeERy?= =?utf-8?B?aFhRNGVRQXBNMUYxUWl6Vks3ZkM5a2p3R0N2Znc5cWtRS3Y2K0w2THdURHB6?= =?utf-8?B?aTlHbS9MbU5uUlhDSjlyVXlCQnM0emM4ejhtMkNVUTVVQjJ1WDdLN0lpL3NV?= =?utf-8?B?ZHJrR2FzMmVsQUVBVHRTTCtzalFRNVRPbjhTcmlHeFVabHh4MkJyU1lXcVRi?= =?utf-8?B?bUhrTS8xVG5GSkNtbGtka3p4aGdHbGphb3g3K2UyYWxvaUtFWkkxT3pIK21q?= =?utf-8?B?cDhISGVVMDY5WHNyaXZndEhSQmxISCs2UElCdVk2UENCcThPbUJCRkhLcGhy?= =?utf-8?B?ekYvd29ZUGlhcEhySWZQaWhmamxBekw2SnoxQjV0dDhHMnNXUmlBNWdhRjFj?= =?utf-8?B?SG9GSnpJNFc0QVZXc2dJdzZFN1hlM09YempacHVrUFE3RWcrZi9EdDhCYmtC?= =?utf-8?B?ZU1ZVHczcVd0SGFBRmdOYnZyUFVMY1pNQXpZVTdYZUUrZlgxVWYwb3RIUmEw?= =?utf-8?B?aCtWUkhQb2VuNnFWVCtNbmlQVHBjR1JWam5BckVwMGtnSkhSeWptUU1SdzFB?= =?utf-8?B?UjdlQ0hHM0tPWVdpZUlGeUM4TzArOTk0WGxTWHV5RS9SdXF3RXJZOUtXWlZK?= =?utf-8?B?YnQyZ2ZkTEh6UUhyZm5MOVJqZTN1anpPaXBVNUx5ZVZpSS9PQ0FTUGZheTVG?= =?utf-8?B?UWxnS1dBL0FZVy9ZUlM5U1Z5anJrcTN6RDliTUQ5SDVpV0E2dWVQWWJrbldF?= =?utf-8?B?andWcnU2T3JxTVE4N2x3bWpoc1ZJYzZjVTVRbi8yUXBlQUg4dmNvNU9QdCtq?= =?utf-8?B?NG9UdU9FMG9HTXBoaElOdzVELytiMmQ1eTd4L1R1dTZ3SnJBSFMxTUdQY3hH?= =?utf-8?B?TlZ0UUhXazVKOEVQVjhRaml3dENidjJ0V21UK3dQUTd1ZmRMUklhajg3S1hJ?= =?utf-8?B?R3NUREhIbkhGSVY0VFFKYlh4cXBLeTJQdUx2aXFjSWhTNmFabWRLNU83enYr?= =?utf-8?B?djlHRXROSGQ5ajMwQ0haNlRBQ3I5ZE9IeThJSXJ4cm12SndZdng5bzB6OGEy?= =?utf-8?B?aml5K0N4WHIzd0Y5QUg1YjhkR1JjV2RlYnc5OERZVXF6REVNUkVLR0lhb3JY?= =?utf-8?B?UHBYTVY0VEdRMld2Q1VOb3NhNHhZeEM2NXJMUms0Q0V6Q01Fa2dWc0kzU0s0?= =?utf-8?B?OS9LbFlTQXhTWG41QytCRHhuZjhRcC9iTUN3bEVpSFc0VFgyY0lISENmTlpo?= =?utf-8?B?Z2p6L2dwaEo4a0pQU1kwZ3Z3YXBHemdoQkdJbVZPRWNvZWhrMktuWkF0aGtK?= =?utf-8?B?dS9LamZtSlZQN2lVOWhCcEN2K0ZFNHlXTFBTcS9sYVZ6ZHpRc3c1S3dhRWVQ?= =?utf-8?B?eVVlcTRJenR3RTRXNGNRM3J1S25OL1c4U1hoczg5cGtac2ltNFZFcExLZEVE?= =?utf-8?B?TFIybmtkS0IzcVhzeWRVWXFvdEExRzM1eHlpa3lZVmhVMDV2ZEJNWEtWTWlV?= =?utf-8?B?R3JaOUxZZWovTnlYRjRYNDBSQ05LbHpBb3MvdEtsQ285UTNiVkQ3MjBLK2cv?= =?utf-8?Q?HPTuvrDIPdOfvQhOl9CFtA+p6CoDAyHdlk+MBtP?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b37eb869-d431-4db2-b532-08d9787c1923 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Sep 2021 19:07:45.1419 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: kWW2NnzM74++m+xMsgh6G5Q0r/D91HdJhBDsrhcnZa2zQZBPdcIdowOS22wVqFfu X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB9PR02MB6859 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Closing the chat trial instances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 19:07:56 -0000 --TxG5nezmlA1ZGIKfHXp4r2jGKcgsVyLK0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="RFyMOCmawDtRWEw7NdKSMXpDpsY0rUjUv"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: tools-discuss Message-ID: <8c02bd21-8574-eaf7-d890-74b060d05174@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Closing the chat trial instances References: <3683aa58-42e4-c047-5dbc-6f388a986d6a@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <3683aa58-42e4-c047-5dbc-6f388a986d6a@nostrum.com> --RFyMOCmawDtRWEw7NdKSMXpDpsY0rUjUv Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------34C2C36EA4AAFF65E5EB4EDA" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------34C2C36EA4AAFF65E5EB4EDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pity about the matrix gateway going. If it were possible to document how someone with e.g. their own homeserver could setup interop with the ongoing IETF IM services that'd be great. I understand if that's not a priority and might need some possibly tricky anti-spam policies to be setup/agreed. I'd be willing to try setup interop with my homeserver if that were a possibility sometime. Cheers, S. On 15/09/2021 17:14, Robert Sparks wrote: > All - >=20 > We are turning off the chat trial instances. This includes: >=20 > xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, matrix-trial1.ief.org, and zulip-trial1.ietf.org >=20 > We've kept them running quite a bit longer than originally planned, and= =20 > we think we have the information we needed to gather from them. >=20 > Going forward: >=20 > We are in the process of setting up a standing Zulip server and will=20 > investigate whether we can integrate that directly with Meetecho as the= =20 > backend for messaging during Meetecho sessions. We will have XMPP-Zulip= =20 > bridging in place as long as both services are active. See the service = > plan at=20 > https://github.com/rjsparks/zulip-implementation/blob/main/Service-Plan= =2Emd >=20 > We received feedback from a small number of people that providing a=20 > Jabber login service was useful, but haven't seen a lot of use of it.=20 > We're not currently planning on providing this service going forward.=20 > Anyone relying on it should take advantage of other existing services. = > There is an updated list of alternatives at=20 > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/groupchat/. >=20 > We are not planning to continue provide a Matrix service. Interest was = > limited, and it presented a more difficult set of operational=20 > challenges. See=20 > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/AI5hBp1qnLAH-S9T7Xh= LF-omFS0/=20 >=20 >=20 > We have heard and continue to keep in mind the feedback to prefer IETF = > standards. >=20 > Timing: >=20 > The matrix trial server will be taken down now. > The xmpp trial server will be taken down in two weeks, giving the few=20 > people who had been using it an opportunity to set up something else. > The zulip trial server will be taken down shortly after the standing=20 > server is made available to the community. >=20 > Please take care to send all discussion to tools-discuss@ietf.org >=20 > RjS >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --------------34C2C36EA4AAFF65E5EB4EDA Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE= wEI ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC= xAA pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX= Az9 +VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL= F+X +degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4= g1U QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre= k3U P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2= niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL= 4Nw tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m= 6vt ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7= +8A CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ= LvC wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8= rpK o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr= qJs CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa= W/r KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG= gMW rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u= rqR 1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/= 0A9 J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc= JBD EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4= vrp 2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA= xvK dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK= xlf tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg= Uky o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO= aHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp= yyz JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ= uLE FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w= sDc BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer= 3UM TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP= jt5 uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK= 171 RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR= Lpg RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov= wza tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0= zG3 6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ= eah r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ= GNz LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o= 3cC GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo= w5o DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h= Rcs RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC= Y98 iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd= h2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4= EIk CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ= DIJ pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4= tvy a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4= ul3 qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc= G9g ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt= w/r 1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ= Jaf 3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1= 4Q0 7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf= qtu Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C= gHw 26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC= wIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL= rfb e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF= etu O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8= v39 +qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr= 1oD 3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr= m2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby= y/A UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO= jao P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz= leL Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC= 2X4 pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g= 1MS BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34= YT0 auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb= edD Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3= 1qG /aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV= YW6 R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg= 4Im VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm= qyH eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx= qnk SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ= Esc YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n= 2Hw xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F= eIY jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E= AuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4= 2AY R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH= X5v aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q= Csw Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq= yA4 3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m= Eer 0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI= Dxz dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC= QgH AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ= i0B igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn= i9g OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy= sIg pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n= 66v xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/= 3r2 BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM= YtU N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr= 5iW XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/= zek ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b= a0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP= Ic2 gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6= XE6 i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1= 16u /HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J= G9a SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW= OMq N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz= 0YO K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4= vYl zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx= nNb KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+= 5HN HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq= 4hn l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn= Zbg JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d= nJj j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8= WLI aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc= dPC Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX= o4+ Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO= Tyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9= hZM 0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5= P3f WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp= cL2 lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk= etP GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3= zRq k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0= 20q pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U= DIB EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x= /nL PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE= hOV fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D= VI9 DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT= uW/ eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD= aWT 3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6= 1df mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8= MAv 2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA= HZR 5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo= qj1 gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6= Mas qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi= RkM dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB= ++/ KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------34C2C36EA4AAFF65E5EB4EDA-- --RFyMOCmawDtRWEw7NdKSMXpDpsY0rUjUv-- --TxG5nezmlA1ZGIKfHXp4r2jGKcgsVyLK0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmFCRH8FAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+o+ jBAAqqQWcKWoQ68CyJSCY7xcTmJXXLgPyHSSnIqMcJ5K9HpmZka9uc3AWc4FpstgVAOVEEHY5Zdd b3prucW+d4I3t3uZgDcZLhE1ruSJ0/dp1yYLHjOKsmt63EL0llwt2fNCdoDo+E9Vbhnzxow+IWWL X8cDzKs/0XlSeXmgPMNLIw4q4t9sjZlQqvl8O5YELrspRUBu1t+vJ+H3G5jPwPNp0ngDWR/gNkRQ 9AASREnG/yN7cA8Jz9h7ADCj0FmpRqT4h9BZubp40vi6Z4rL3HS29PVjYwBkC1R57ZlhiXj8hBmp EglSrn4ZleYAt2sGHrrUkExk0QHbgie+npETDQ6gWlttt9iKiDuvmPwdmBcBVyjSlusuqUht8S2f hzUoi41Evu/EwxoFt7bmn2RPH9gU56ewoAZ1OeEDx/NJj2NzGbc3LxkiBMXV/pUEhDx7QoaIQ+ne A/25cs/Vq364qY/+Qtzc9a1qf2lM/24nu9wg8yqaRLImXW5bKV/jLcAId7G+gIdhmPy+grWYVD2n /rqlCCPl+XiT8Y0ZySBaaFT+D8irBR79eUUCVDrchf5BiNus0bmmARcDBM4mrRvDwkNgbPkMmrDz 3XEK2Z6WfWmTBMMqIgaAaLol9taLCohhs75pXHoo1zxVAW56Mlchf5oVrS5TOGiuQUlZinNMTWCO Y0o= =Aisv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TxG5nezmlA1ZGIKfHXp4r2jGKcgsVyLK0-- From nobody Wed Sep 15 12:22:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B133A0891 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:22:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5g77Pf-d6whx for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71C293A088D for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id j18so4858817ioj.8 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:22:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XNnBo3rKPHtYkEnPmEGLAiwoH+VW+x6uhrHqRj2GFbc=; b=SEayr8LwLxOB4C1VGnEcWJaFfEAng/YwYQNC0t+V2G0KMcxFeYiuFZF6SZTBIDkJee wUdGskwM+vmztvPfn+Yj+4E61qIW1ThFEmw7aFmjdMh+rgGhJQrzAK2vmYZ2yHGzY4NG +a3qF2cnzEct3fIUfJcjKOjQuqVjKTHRmfbRQjh/PgjEXyJOIso65bvHZQdY4cfDZ2/4 Uqn+ToWbD8sA1gGDXhkTQaMw/ORUSDlHac0HRA/AGgOCGRf3/XWtPF5t0BTTTzvFc20d MKLJdh4yuDczOlZSaLDitJfVgTNFcX+iiluj5r3f0eYaAu7/0c/8ZZfW+Hydrsb3Zfi0 aa4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XNnBo3rKPHtYkEnPmEGLAiwoH+VW+x6uhrHqRj2GFbc=; b=cEB5cn+VNxLL1mijhN4QZ3fKo1J/naksueu9NXQVUTUgFp4e/egmqdjJ9Zf9xd2BB3 OyJLl56EachdCRS2xpYp6otrWl2fz0CyLL1GuCTt8Jv5z5lc9CMg2mdfDoLqmsri/9Ag rJs/vV1YNunFwVIKp/KG/hPdImo03DimBMsvEzPgL1M0ySA6fvmwSx7CEDQqKd8r2cgy koa86VWKIthlNSJdLwPjMbR6bpfRRheKPcdCXeuYOfcy0KlvXJSyoKAHScaylpI2VtEd Rd5Jz7nN2s48hOOJ3qp9zFRADA1DREVwtRoa/qBtbQVfeMZGphnm8Xw8LA6D9b2E+G+r hVVw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530vNaQiUAl2tVMory+92YgAFFSPAqdm6UwHYAtjzdDDuhsbtevi HMrvpYi57mfhXNdzBr2wRkvbzPLEOf35DxEuUADQn+MAhDY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzYcpTGawTaUQqr9alYY4WghPI0ooRfweowR8FV1dz9o9of2mtV8Yz2clyD9quF6PTQDrv4SO4Zgpr5PNFvBx8= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:e604:: with SMTP id g4mr1345941ioh.148.1631733736131; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:22:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:21:40 -0700 Message-ID: To: tools-discuss Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b5ed1d05cc0d9d36" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 19:22:22 -0000 --000000000000b5ed1d05cc0d9d36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Robert, This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then people come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to change, ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate the data then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. -Ekr On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:22 AM Robert Sparks wrote: > Be aware that any content at notes.ietf.org is intended to be ephemeral. > > We expect the content to remain available as long as we are running the > service, but there is no guarantee it will be preserved. At some point > in the future, it may be replaced with another service, and the content > will not be automatically extracted. > > Anything that should be archived needs to be stored at an archival > service. For instance, minutes should be captured in the datatracker as > minutes documents. If it isn't obvious where to keep any given content, > contact a relevant member of the leadership. > > Please keep in mind that the content at notes.ietf.org may not be there > in the future as you choose share URLs to it in other places. > > Robert Sparks > Tools team chair > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000b5ed1d05cc0d9d36 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Robert,

This is the kind = of PSA that is often made and ignored and then people come to rely on the e= xisting state of affairs, making it hard to change, ISTM that if you want t= o actually have it be easy to deprecate the data then you probably want to = make it actively unreliable now.

-Ekr


On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:22 AM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
Be aware that any content a= t no= tes.ietf.org is intended to be ephemeral.

We expect the content to remain available as long as we are running the service, but there is no guarantee it will be preserved. At some point
in the future, it may be replaced with another service, and the content will not be automatically extracted.

Anything that should be archived needs to be stored at an archival
service. For instance, minutes should be captured in the datatracker as minutes documents. If it isn't obvious where to keep any given content,=
contact a relevant member of the leadership.

Please keep in mind that the content at notes.ietf.org may not be there in the future as you choose share URLs to it in other places.

Robert Sparks
Tools team chair

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000b5ed1d05cc0d9d36-- From nobody Wed Sep 15 13:34:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF3D3A1049 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:34:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.353 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.353 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gDmvsEhxkSHu for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr70120.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.7.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEDA43A1045 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:34:16 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=gN4019w9SzJ44JjBJLg8YpjoQ2m7lETTnos4bsuKIh133OdOvXyXWiBNGs29m/ZTtUd+2ZJj3YZkIbT3JmJAYKKw9/EmFWGxANyUB10gO2f8gHsLxA5rhXO9Rbavbt0uq5Uss2AGAMBJfyf3noEzuHwM+J2SASR50Ty9VY3SsoEoUWtp0lyqGugNpwZIZC0hKPwUFq28rDWao0+6zkkX+0XYxrSFCatLJSSe8jXzCkTUad4Y2Oc3CvihKOLGdSGU5VwZzVMuSfyauWOd4LI0wq+v9XFAMghlehGkmEkaocL7qLR8CgmqpraeP2UXM/EZalEAqzuPe+2QyAB9YybSGw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=Co5NzwPrzUGDw7YRksoNBLCJdnHobjnuqIsG53HOE2U=; b=lZVzPQxnR6lr/1X3hP6C6pdHrkEIANjmsyPCVWUdBPH6NF/5/nXnMmNJMpJHFMDA2oo1MGRgPIpsqgWITsOhV/3oloTMxM6mEC3sz3U2JUjVBLAQG6mWEXKti3axw3bCHg5CkSEUvoAbqDaePP4Nrt1vILLVnuWUdtASGVCcM+ny9Y5qhjNWdVCnvg/ghHcPGd2BHlxvHznCiWRjr1X0SPGZggaXwTuDcHfZryyOy0m7FixvfQ+qRAEcf/2z+SBpZ90h/Zgwss3CuNCoO57VkDkG3Fwxv2uFICRAb6gMkyy+SJl5tMO6ZUJdBG0WNkTa4KOpMxfedQ42Whjx2aD7ug== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=nokia.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=nokia.com; dkim=pass header.d=nokia.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Co5NzwPrzUGDw7YRksoNBLCJdnHobjnuqIsG53HOE2U=; b=QM2Hb/jdb91y/BWB2c6bogzu5k31lv6oPXJIkgpLB9U47Z34EVjupbcmN1jezXsElFKptQaQMJHB1Wl6MZin7ODTAbxgbg0j9DsInGr5OW/5XUe4kUkthV1IcK1a3OtykaTh0UT5vzieep42lJeZ3ID87o5Gbop/a756RgHpx6Y= Received: from PAXPR07MB7999.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:102:139::19) by PR3PR07MB6857.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:102:71::7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4523.12; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:34:13 +0000 Received: from PAXPR07MB7999.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::99d4:b9dc:3900:d150]) by PAXPR07MB7999.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::99d4:b9dc:3900:d150%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4523.014; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:34:13 +0000 From: "Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" To: tools-discuss Thread-Topic: Closing the chat trial instances Thread-Index: AQHXqkzis2hkkzmmRkCyjsnM00eclaulieVQ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:34:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3683aa58-42e4-c047-5dbc-6f388a986d6a@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <3683aa58-42e4-c047-5dbc-6f388a986d6a@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=nokia.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9c32f7bf-947d-46b1-3245-08d978882e02 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: PR3PR07MB6857: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:PAXPR07MB7999.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(9686003)(55016002)(2906002)(8676002)(52536014)(38070700005)(6916009)(5660300002)(316002)(26005)(6506007)(66446008)(66556008)(53546011)(33656002)(86362001)(76116006)(64756008)(966005)(8936002)(7696005)(66476007)(66946007)(186003)(508600001)(122000001)(71200400001)(83380400001)(38100700002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?MnFjYWludGlZMHpONGppQ2czMGFnWDNaRkhYSmxiWHNrLzdscXN6TjBvZ09V?= =?utf-8?B?SkRDL1M2R3N0MVFTMHRIZnhoYkR3alVCbzlvZjZjYU1TNnlaL2NBMlhVWnRB?= =?utf-8?B?OGNXaVJEVmgxREN0UE1WSm8wOXpSeFE0aUkxQzdPRkZOSERvQ3hUYlJSM2Rw?= =?utf-8?B?T2w2OE5FUnQweFNZMHpkVjkrcVU3RUF2cVFsWUl5NHE5endITVZVUEhUM0gy?= =?utf-8?B?Q1M1WHZ5TkltL3l5dStmck1idGNKck5ucEszN2ROblRRdGpIWWVNTUNQN2Zh?= =?utf-8?B?MVJuREw1Uk9IejZOTUFBcU01clZYQjRjN1lCOXQwQ0dUK2daa0VBSXExWmk5?= =?utf-8?B?RFQ5VDlkbHlQVUhkMWNoaEsyenRMb1BTeCtjOFJnaThRWno3NjNKcWMrRUJi?= =?utf-8?B?YlVSNytuQ3FRRXVQZmhsa1didGpDNE94UEhWMmJ0aUZYOE5RY3drbC9nMlhN?= =?utf-8?B?cG5yUE14ZG5hanlkSDh2QWhVcXRKY0xBQkNOMytUaWdiVHNEWU5icVRiNG5M?= =?utf-8?B?MnJHVjZmdGNpZWFSK3EzZlM5aHF5OUYxbFlLU04yOUVCSThrRldzYmJuVE9v?= =?utf-8?B?UjRZM3dab0Q4bWRPbGwzb3hmN1lhMVFLVzdYN0RqVkdQNmhkK3ZuZjBacStI?= =?utf-8?B?d0Z1WnhtNnVlNXBUNjZjemN3amp5Y1VtQ1NTelRIVlphYkZMaExkektZNmxJ?= =?utf-8?B?cG1kbG9QdFpSdUkxTTByMU00LzFkK3NBa01zcDZJM2RpVkJpTlg5RWZCelpt?= =?utf-8?B?OHc1MnVBT1ljMmZEN0krVko1b3BzOEN6anV6dThtQWhqVDViWGtZb1h2cmpR?= =?utf-8?B?RThXSWtwK2xDMjZOWm5lR3hxSnNqQmFHd05xWU5VdTUzdTV2dFhFMWxLRkNS?= =?utf-8?B?Z3RLMDdmSVZzdlppUGFqYmVSOGRJdVhYMkV3c3h6dHZDeDFpcVkraUlyai9r?= =?utf-8?B?VWdvSUFUTVQvSHNHbDRGQkZ1SE1GS2NSQ0wrVCs1M0FXVGNacFZxYUt1Mlhq?= =?utf-8?B?V1YzU2d6dFhPcWZKcHNvMXhTb3lvZEhSVG5JekFPZ1RxYThCMDFYMTFTYWh1?= =?utf-8?B?V2Nzc0ZFRG5lanJXWUVRcVl3eUgzWmNvdWEyNVk0cjY4S0p2dm43dGp0bE9M?= =?utf-8?B?VzdnS0FPd3RGSnlRTEtSZE5xS2paNXhUaGN1M25acmR0U1RVSWJCSUsrbE9P?= =?utf-8?B?N2pRcjFPcDljSGp1QnJML0hGNkYvZ0E1RXpyemoxUFVHWHFEN0x6eW05Wmtu?= =?utf-8?B?Tlg2NmJhSFBnWndMeXk3bWdBTkU5bnBmVGgrL1h2ajh4MjdONW0vbmVZRmV0?= =?utf-8?B?aWgvNmt2aWZtSGtEOUt2TkIrK1FnKzFYOHUxcVp0QVhuWmp0ZHBScnBaMjEr?= =?utf-8?B?c1l5Y3BscVZ4dGZ4aVZXRVBuWUFkOUpjTkJnLzltUVNOZFhEbXg2T0ZxOFlL?= =?utf-8?B?ZWhYY0hESGExbFlZQTdtTnhOeDY1a3BNMGF3VG41dEZUWndDdE8rUkJXbk9G?= =?utf-8?B?djhPWlNYeUpVRkdCeUd5Y0p5a3ptUEhHL1hWa2dDeWxBcDZSTjlWbmM1WXN5?= =?utf-8?B?L2c4L1F3Z2U3WEpvbTZlMmwwYzJNRTM0cVg4Z0htUlcrUDJWNjAva0pDbkdo?= =?utf-8?B?LzJSVWlJckl6cUEwWWNSUFdvd1JTaElYK0tJNm04eWlGNDM1STdSRzdnWVIv?= =?utf-8?B?WUZqaThVWmtqRWZ6dW9QVjdVMFRpTUFORjZBTC96Y2ovY0VhV20zeW9HeGJJ?= =?utf-8?Q?ovZn/XKUCxoNjBPRAsLXv0XPy5wRcxJ8QEdANbq?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: PAXPR07MB7999.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9c32f7bf-947d-46b1-3245-08d978882e02 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Sep 2021 20:34:13.1162 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: dD3uD7coJbH6YNLY6MNIUM0jeopRIYvEpXwVte5tPhVpzFyVN50lLK6IGEH1z/tRXwJNWsMpA4pPb1vP+avdq3JlDHrmTjHibh88eFcTamM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PR3PR07MB6857 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Closing the chat trial instances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:34:22 -0000 SGVsbG8sDQpJIHRoaW5rIEkgd2FzIGFtb25nIHRoZSBwZW9wbGUgd2hvIGV4cHJlc3NlZCB0aGlz IHdhcyB1c2VmdWwsIGFuZCBmYWlsZWQgdG8gdXNlIGl0IGluIHRoZSBsYXN0IHR3byBtZWV0aW5n cyBiZWNhdXNlIEkgKHdyb25nbHkgPykgcmVsaWVkIG9uIE1lZXRlY2hvLiBJIHNob3VsZCBoYXZl IHRyaWVkIHRoZSBuZXcgc2VydmVycy9zZXJ2aWNlcyAod2hpY2ggSSBmYWlsZWQgdG8gbm90aWNl KSwgYnV0IHdhcyBidXN5IHdpdGggb3RoZXIgdGhpbmdzLg0KSSdkIGxpa2UgdG8gb2JzZXJ2ZSB0 aGF0IHdlIGNhbid0IGNvbXBsYWluIHRoYXQgcGVvcGxlIGFyZSBub3QgdXNpbmcgSmFiYmVyIGVu b3VnaCwgYW5kIGF0IHRoZSBzYW1lIHRpbWUgcmVtb3ZlIHRoaW5ncyB0aGF0ICBtYWtlIEphYmJl ciBlYXNpZXIgdG8gdXNlL2NvbmZpZ3VyZS4gTWFraW5nIEphYmJlciBoYXJkZXIgdGhhbiBpdCBh bHJlYWR5IGlzIHdpbGwgc2ltcGx5IGRlY3JlYXNlIHVzYWdlLiBXZSBtaWdodCBoYXZlIGEgcGxh biB0byB1c2Ugb25seSBNZWV0ZWNobyBnb2luZyBmb3J3YXJkLCBidXQgdGhpcyBpcyBhIGRpZmZl cmVudCBpc3N1ZS4NCkFyZ3VhYmx5IHRoZSBpbnN0cnVjdGlvbnMgYXQgaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvaG93L21lZXRpbmdzL2dyb3VwY2hhdC8gZ290IG11Y2ggYmV0dGVyIHRoYW4gaW4gdGhl IHBhc3QsIGJ1dCB0aGUgbm90aW9uIG9mIElFVEYgaGF2aW5nIGl0cyBvd24gc2VydmVyKHMpIGlu c3RlYWQgb2YgcmVseWluZyBvbiB0aGlyZCBwYXJ0aWVzIGZvciBhIHNvbWV3aGF0IGNyaXRpY2Fs IHNlcnZpY2Ugc291bmRlZCBsaWtlIGEgc2FuZSBpZGVhLg0KSSBnZXQgdGhlIHNhbWUgaW1wcmVz c2lvbiBhcyBmb3IgdGhlIChhYnNlbmNlIG9mKSBkZWJhdGUgb24gdGhlIGRlc3RydWN0aW9uIG9m IHRoZSBGVFAgc2VydmljZTogd2UgY3V0IGl0IGJlY2F1c2UgaXMgbm90IHVzZWQgZW5vdWdoLCBy ZWdhcmRsZXNzIG9mIHRoZSBpbmNvbnZlbmllbmNlIHRvIHBlb3BsZSB3aG8gdXNlIGl0IG9yIG1p Z2h0IHVzZSBpdC4gQ29zdCBjdXR0aW5nIGluIElFVEYgaXMgcmVsYXRpdmVseSBuZXcsIGFuZCB0 byBtZSBpdCdzIG5vdCBwcmV0dHksICBJIGhvcGUgaXQncyB3b3J0aCBpdC4NCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJk cywNCkp1bGllbi4NCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IGlldGYgPGll dGYtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZz4gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIFJvYmVydCBTcGFya3MNClNlbnQ6IFdl ZG5lc2RheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDE1LCAyMDIxIDY6MTQgUE0NClRvOiB0b29scy1kaXNjdXNzIDx0 b29scy1kaXNjdXNzQGlldGYub3JnPg0KQ2M6IGlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IG1hbnljb3VjaGVzQGll dGYub3JnDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBDbG9zaW5nIHRoZSBjaGF0IHRyaWFsIGluc3RhbmNlcw0KDQpBbGwg LQ0KDQpXZSBhcmUgdHVybmluZyBvZmYgdGhlIGNoYXQgdHJpYWwgaW5zdGFuY2VzLiBUaGlzIGlu Y2x1ZGVzOg0KDQp4bXBwLXRyaWFsMS5pZXRmLm9yZywgbWF0cml4LXRyaWFsMS5pZWYub3JnLCBh bmQgenVsaXAtdHJpYWwxLmlldGYub3JnDQoNCldlJ3ZlIGtlcHQgdGhlbSBydW5uaW5nIHF1aXRl IGEgYml0IGxvbmdlciB0aGFuIG9yaWdpbmFsbHkgcGxhbm5lZCwgYW5kIHdlIHRoaW5rIHdlIGhh dmUgdGhlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHdlIG5lZWRlZCB0byBnYXRoZXIgZnJvbSB0aGVtLg0KDQpHb2lu ZyBmb3J3YXJkOg0KDQpXZSBhcmUgaW4gdGhlIHByb2Nlc3Mgb2Ygc2V0dGluZyB1cCBhIHN0YW5k aW5nIFp1bGlwIHNlcnZlciBhbmQgd2lsbCBpbnZlc3RpZ2F0ZSB3aGV0aGVyIHdlIGNhbiBpbnRl Z3JhdGUgdGhhdCBkaXJlY3RseSB3aXRoIE1lZXRlY2hvIGFzIHRoZSBiYWNrZW5kIGZvciBtZXNz YWdpbmcgZHVyaW5nIE1lZXRlY2hvIHNlc3Npb25zLiBXZSB3aWxsIGhhdmUgWE1QUC1adWxpcCBi cmlkZ2luZyBpbiBwbGFjZSBhcyBsb25nIGFzIGJvdGggc2VydmljZXMgYXJlIGFjdGl2ZS4gU2Vl IHRoZSBzZXJ2aWNlIHBsYW4gYXQgaHR0cHM6Ly9naXRodWIuY29tL3Jqc3BhcmtzL3p1bGlwLWlt cGxlbWVudGF0aW9uL2Jsb2IvbWFpbi9TZXJ2aWNlLVBsYW4ubWQNCg0KV2UgcmVjZWl2ZWQgZmVl ZGJhY2sgZnJvbSBhIHNtYWxsIG51bWJlciBvZiBwZW9wbGUgdGhhdCBwcm92aWRpbmcgYSBKYWJi ZXIgbG9naW4gc2VydmljZSB3YXMgdXNlZnVsLCBidXQgaGF2ZW4ndCBzZWVuIGEgbG90IG9mIHVz ZSBvZiBpdC4gDQpXZSdyZSBub3QgY3VycmVudGx5IHBsYW5uaW5nIG9uIHByb3ZpZGluZyB0aGlz IHNlcnZpY2UgZ29pbmcgZm9yd2FyZC4gDQpBbnlvbmUgcmVseWluZyBvbiBpdCBzaG91bGQgdGFr ZSBhZHZhbnRhZ2Ugb2Ygb3RoZXIgZXhpc3Rpbmcgc2VydmljZXMuIA0KVGhlcmUgaXMgYW4gdXBk YXRlZCBsaXN0IG9mIGFsdGVybmF0aXZlcyBhdCBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9ob3cvbWVl dGluZ3MvZ3JvdXBjaGF0Ly4NCg0KV2UgYXJlIG5vdCBwbGFubmluZyB0byBjb250aW51ZSBwcm92 aWRlIGEgTWF0cml4IHNlcnZpY2UuIEludGVyZXN0IHdhcyBsaW1pdGVkLCBhbmQgaXQgcHJlc2Vu dGVkIGEgbW9yZSBkaWZmaWN1bHQgc2V0IG9mIG9wZXJhdGlvbmFsIGNoYWxsZW5nZXMuIFNlZSBo dHRwczovL21haWxhcmNoaXZlLmlldGYub3JnL2FyY2gvbXNnL3Rvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3MvQUk1aEJw MXFuTEFILVM5VDdYaExGLW9tRlMwLw0KDQpXZSBoYXZlIGhlYXJkIGFuZCBjb250aW51ZSB0byBr ZWVwIGluIG1pbmQgdGhlIGZlZWRiYWNrIHRvIHByZWZlciBJRVRGIHN0YW5kYXJkcy4NCg0KVGlt aW5nOg0KDQpUaGUgbWF0cml4IHRyaWFsIHNlcnZlciB3aWxsIGJlIHRha2VuIGRvd24gbm93Lg0K VGhlIHhtcHAgdHJpYWwgc2VydmVyIHdpbGwgYmUgdGFrZW4gZG93biBpbiB0d28gd2Vla3MsIGdp dmluZyB0aGUgZmV3IHBlb3BsZSB3aG8gaGFkIGJlZW4gdXNpbmcgaXQgYW4gb3Bwb3J0dW5pdHkg dG8gc2V0IHVwIHNvbWV0aGluZyBlbHNlLg0KVGhlIHp1bGlwIHRyaWFsIHNlcnZlciB3aWxsIGJl IHRha2VuIGRvd24gc2hvcnRseSBhZnRlciB0aGUgc3RhbmRpbmcgc2VydmVyIGlzIG1hZGUgYXZh aWxhYmxlIHRvIHRoZSBjb21tdW5pdHkuDQoNClBsZWFzZSB0YWtlIGNhcmUgdG8gc2VuZCBhbGwg ZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiB0byB0b29scy1kaXNjdXNzQGlldGYub3JnDQoNClJqUw0KDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Wed Sep 15 16:41:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43DBB3A0803 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:41:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SkHPEpjgrVH8 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F0773A07F9 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4974972195; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p5PN3qQRfY1d; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3FAAE4972180; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:41:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DE10C38E-6364-4B29-AFFA-7BAA8E16354B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:41:05 +1200 In-Reply-To: Cc: tools-discuss To: "Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" References: <3683aa58-42e4-c047-5dbc-6f388a986d6a@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Closing the chat trial instances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 23:41:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DE10C38E-6364-4B29-AFFA-7BAA8E16354B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Julien > On 16/09/2021, at 8:34 AM, Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - = FR/Paris-Saclay) wrote: >=20 > Hello, > I think I was among the people who expressed this was useful, and = failed to use it in the last two meetings because I (wrongly ?) relied = on Meetecho. I should have tried the new servers/services (which I = failed to notice), but was busy with other things. > I'd like to observe that we can't complain that people are not using = Jabber enough, and at the same time remove things that make Jabber = easier to use/configure. Making Jabber harder than it already is will = simply decrease usage. We might have a plan to use only Meetecho going = forward, but this is a different issue. > Arguably the instructions at = https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/groupchat/ = got much better than in = the past, but the notion of IETF having its own server(s) instead of = relying on third parties for a somewhat critical service sounded like a = sane idea. > I get the same impression as for the (absence of) debate on the = destruction of the FTP service: we cut it because is not used enough, = regardless of the inconvenience to people who use it or might use it. = Cost cutting in IETF is relatively new, and to me it's not pretty, I = hope it's worth it. This is not a cost cutting decision and we do not make a cost saving = from it. cheers Jay > Best regards, > Julien. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf > On = Behalf Of Robert Sparks > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 6:14 PM > To: tools-discuss > > Cc: ietf@ietf.org ; manycouches@ietf.org = > Subject: Closing the chat trial instances >=20 > All - >=20 > We are turning off the chat trial instances. This includes: >=20 > xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, matrix-trial1.ief.org, and zulip-trial1.ietf.org >=20 > We've kept them running quite a bit longer than originally planned, = and we think we have the information we needed to gather from them. >=20 > Going forward: >=20 > We are in the process of setting up a standing Zulip server and will = investigate whether we can integrate that directly with Meetecho as the = backend for messaging during Meetecho sessions. We will have XMPP-Zulip = bridging in place as long as both services are active. See the service = plan at = https://github.com/rjsparks/zulip-implementation/blob/main/Service-Plan.md= >=20 > We received feedback from a small number of people that providing a = Jabber login service was useful, but haven't seen a lot of use of it.=20 > We're not currently planning on providing this service going forward.=20= > Anyone relying on it should take advantage of other existing services.=20= > There is an updated list of alternatives at = https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/groupchat/. >=20 > We are not planning to continue provide a Matrix service. Interest was = limited, and it presented a more difficult set of operational = challenges. See = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/AI5hBp1qnLAH-S9T7XhLF-= omFS0/ >=20 > We have heard and continue to keep in mind the feedback to prefer IETF = standards. >=20 > Timing: >=20 > The matrix trial server will be taken down now. > The xmpp trial server will be taken down in two weeks, giving the few = people who had been using it an opportunity to set up something else. > The zulip trial server will be taken down shortly after the standing = server is made available to the community. >=20 > Please take care to send all discussion to tools-discuss@ietf.org >=20 > RjS >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org = > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: = webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org = > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_DE10C38E-6364-4B29-AFFA-7BAA8E16354B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = Julien

On 16/09/2021, at 8:34 AM, Maisonneuve, = Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) <julien.maisonneuve@nokia.com> wrote:

Hello,
I think I was among the people who expressed this was useful, = and failed to use it in the last two meetings because I (wrongly ?) = relied on Meetecho. I should have tried the new servers/services (which = I failed to notice), but was busy with other things.
I'd like to observe that we = can't complain that people are not using Jabber enough, and at the same = time remove things that  make Jabber easier to use/configure. = Making Jabber harder than it already is will simply decrease usage. We = might have a plan to use only Meetecho going forward, but this is a = different issue.
Arguably the instructions at https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/groupchat/ got much better than in the = past, but the notion of IETF having its own server(s) instead of relying = on third parties for a somewhat critical service sounded like a sane = idea.
I get the = same impression as for the (absence of) debate on the destruction of the = FTP service: we cut it because is not used enough, regardless of the = inconvenience to people who use it or might use it. Cost cutting in IETF = is relatively new, and to me it's not pretty,  I hope it's worth = it.

This = is not a cost cutting decision and we do not make a cost saving from = it.

cheers
Jay
Best = regards,
Julien.

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Robert Sparks
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 6:14 PM
To: tools-discuss <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org; manycouches@ietf.org
Subject: Closing the chat trial = instances

All = -

We are = turning off the chat trial instances. This includes:

xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, = matrix-trial1.ief.org, and zulip-trial1.ietf.org

We've kept them running quite a bit longer than originally = planned, and we think we have the information we needed to gather from = them.

Going = forward:

We are in the = process of setting up a standing Zulip server and will investigate = whether we can integrate that directly with Meetecho as the backend for = messaging during Meetecho sessions. We will have XMPP-Zulip bridging in = place as long as both services are active. See the service plan at https://github.com/rjsparks/zulip-implementation/blob/main/Serv= ice-Plan.md

We received feedback from a small number of people that = providing a Jabber login service was useful, but haven't seen a lot of = use of it. 
We're not currently planning on = providing this service going forward. 
Anyone relying on it should take = advantage of other existing services. 
There is an updated list of = alternatives at https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/groupchat/.

We are not planning to continue = provide a Matrix service. Interest was limited, and it presented a more = difficult set of operational challenges. See https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/AI5hBp1qnLA= H-S9T7XhLF-omFS0/

We have heard and continue to keep in mind the feedback to = prefer IETF standards.

Timing:

The matrix trial server will be taken down now.
The xmpp trial server will be = taken down in two weeks, giving the few people who had been using it an = opportunity to set up something else.
The zulip trial server will be taken down shortly after the = standing server is made available to the community.

Please take care to send all = discussion to tools-discuss@ietf.org

RjS




___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss = mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not = for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to = Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_DE10C38E-6364-4B29-AFFA-7BAA8E16354B-- From nobody Thu Sep 16 00:40:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B533A1CF4; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:40:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Au2v0Y0kDAPA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 551303A1DB0; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H98B343txz2xNX; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:39:55 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:39:55 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss , IETF discussion list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Working Chairs X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:40:17 -0000 On 15. Sep 2021, at 21:21, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > Hi Robert, >=20 > This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then people = come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to change, = ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate the data = then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. I=E2=80=99m not sure there isn=E2=80=99t an emoticon missing from this = message=E2=80=A6 The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users are = responsible for the reliability of their operating systems. (One main reason that this never can work is that users have work to do = and are not in a mode to interrupt their work for arcane unrelated = activities.) Here, users are effectively asked to make manual backups of work that = has been done in notes.ietf.org. Many people already occasionally make such backups, stash them away in = some unreliable way; others won=E2=80=99t and will start making queries = of who has a backup and whether that is the most recent one. (This = already has happened. Don=E2=80=99t ask.) Instead of burdening everyone with their own unstructured backup = mechanisms, maybe it does make sense to keep something going at the IETF = side. (Being able to underlay a git repository would be the best technical = solution that still keeps most responsibility on the user side. But I don=E2=80=99t want to talk mechanism here, just that it is not = enough to issue another RFC 6919 "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON=E2=80=99T)=E2=80= =9D.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 16 00:46:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6DA3A1D25; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:46:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=vpjqWIRY; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=XrFzs6Ro Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m6EOQTxFh-8f; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B3333A1D22; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7531C5C0038; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 03:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 03:46:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=0 rA5Zb/vTpPTlCC+WTEXUY/WZp/S/kiAOWowzdZL8NI=; b=vpjqWIRYcY2Rblw5/ iz0TYwsmIyretKuZQePrli7l6jab0DmobVpNrNEpzOr7Fd3UCe+KQk8mwanCeOzJ HjE90SBcngkZiLR3rUqD6b77Iu6OAtVmObhYC82MTqdWULxnv32i8mDRH2YfnCb9 Gq/3kPu4Z/TG2WOUtDyuH03N9LfiZXo5oo0eddLAfl1Usy+LxJ3ejbbAAPD0uUoo 6tXiZ7LFmfsPxYo7GskZE3Ztd4dJK4uapwd5uk34ho/BbZu8GNJMFnLTRwzkjwEx oelUOw911w1BHhjK5nZJ7q0ZYgAso2pOtlGagx+3KABNOivFx1yZD5r10LJPz4+K RRjPw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=0rA5Zb/vTpPTlCC+WTEXUY/WZp/S/kiAOWowzdZL8 NI=; b=XrFzs6RoiphwEIvehWUxVlqt0dso3Kcf1Hk+QRVhC/dx6x5xbkAQIR0Si Oz6D8KEAd5QLZ8eCuEIdRXbwWzpY0VA7GP6IQ0PMYY4WvDYflozPX9tDzZz+7SZg d8tC7w6jiIcYh5SghXQgX2FOQPSwiDJf2BYJ2eWYXDfTXkqGKZKNUaWhnBhLFruy KgNWQLUBtkEGC0fZeqLNKqtU5ufCTZcPrRhFW95VPEXM0zhuI710CVzZ5/lkFaqR RRNtBoZTHPafUyHnIe/kBttFfETAbnRFVQDWqzE0v1BJWfZFokhrNeiy21UW9Jmf LeeqgXzJrAmtfm++pu8aaESLuXJrA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudehfedguddvtdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghr khcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrth htvghrnhepfeegvdfgjeegvdetuedukeevfefhheelieevjeejkefhffehkeejieekjedt heejnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsth gvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdr nhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 03:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:46:00 +1000 Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> References: To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:46:17 -0000 Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. > On 16 Sep 2021, at 5:39 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 15. Sep 2021, at 21:21, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Robert, >>=20 >> This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then = people come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to = change, ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate = the data then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure there isn=E2=80=99t an emoticon missing from this = message=E2=80=A6 >=20 > The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users = are responsible for the reliability of their operating systems. > (One main reason that this never can work is that users have work to = do and are not in a mode to interrupt their work for arcane unrelated = activities.) >=20 > Here, users are effectively asked to make manual backups of work that = has been done in notes.ietf.org. > Many people already occasionally make such backups, stash them away in = some unreliable way; others won=E2=80=99t and will start making queries = of who has a backup and whether that is the most recent one. (This = already has happened. Don=E2=80=99t ask.) >=20 > Instead of burdening everyone with their own unstructured backup = mechanisms, maybe it does make sense to keep something going at the IETF = side. >=20 > (Being able to underlay a git repository would be the best technical = solution that still keeps most responsibility on the user side. > But I don=E2=80=99t want to talk mechanism here, just that it is not = enough to issue another RFC 6919 "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON=E2=80=99T)=E2=80= =9D.) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:07:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972243A1F6E for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:07:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=YIE/tMSG; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=G/PK0uZi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EWF92IX2tLuI for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6898F3A1F70 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 133CC320028E for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:07:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:07:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=AdD0s V9PxOaQ6oyxd8gvfcnK302x4MS58A9v8HM3EUk=; b=YIE/tMSGH4Bcxv4/I7+aY ZKcV0p2Rv+J1TJ0OgDtHIZuapPBnel3KfPH+qlvZYPFzpjaf1NceEHGxBLBm1xTz jVlBqY7uChyaVG6JI36pHRf2MNSRegkofDEOugoi7KOju0ekljG0Q3zfWS6fKbMR eRupzLbFutLxUEmgeV5azk/RAa1d1avz/rFyqOGJfZKwr8HJLIZn7BiqDoRdOCcG pPHaehX5DAOmV15StZLr2iq+XYL5jBmbbNxb/ynrhWI/InUKe7kNBCrdibAnIvIr AjZ/gcaB+yHtSlPsFTxphk7ey+XeRIHiWHaznJhlYUAyNZ14cFomNbMfr2R0yR1G g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=AdD0sV9PxOaQ6oyxd8gvfcnK302x4MS58A9v8HM3E Uk=; b=G/PK0uZiOgppHV3PCtPamjSLGKPBnj4s93HIiZ8vOyH/X2lBSrds5Pwk0 7UNGLY+03jdnQ9ShvMJoKhk1gUE+CUaq6kFE+oxOB1yDlofBzO4Ya/K/kE5QWM8g 4K0VWSlqYEk7BtkWatkxlDNnmg2hkIdFL9WGQStF5awliggUmDaFu4yX5xXM0NbJ crS8bxDK7LmigUVO7RdRvYKKBE33/xqXhlC3ujd65UBmZkQCTs/PZibVNPAsZFVW FDwEZXHxTBOhfbeAyjsnmCdNUmTCHr5nSFcfxapU05b25TUCABA2A5RqEs32D7EN a0Jx4MqhYBuxDenvOuHUedWBpZ6Fg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudehfedguddvhecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgse htqhertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmthes lhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefhuefhffeileeive ejkeehkeekieeitdehjeegtdeijeevkeetiefgvedvteeujeenucffohhmrghinhepghhi thhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdhivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrh fuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhp hidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id DD60B3C031B; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:07:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1291-gc66fc0a3a2-fm-20210913.001-gc66fc0a3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:07:26 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:07:54 -0000 That might have been one of the options Ekr was considering, though I'm = guessing he didn't want to be prescriptive. It's a technique that does = work though, and a relatively easy one to implement. An ephemeral-by-default tool is what I want from this. Not just to avoi= d the burden of working out a backup strategy, but because that is the t= ool that suits this purpose. And gist.github.com exists for the other s= tuff. On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, at 17:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. >=20 >=20 > > On 16 Sep 2021, at 5:39 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >=20 > > On 15. Sep 2021, at 21:21, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >>=20 > >> Hi Robert, > >>=20 > >> This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then peo= ple come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to cha= nge, ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate the = data then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. > >=20 > > I=E2=80=99m not sure there isn=E2=80=99t an emoticon missing from th= is message=E2=80=A6 > >=20 > > The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users = are responsible for the reliability of their operating systems. > > (One main reason that this never can work is that users have work to= do and are not in a mode to interrupt their work for arcane unrelated a= ctivities.) > >=20 > > Here, users are effectively asked to make manual backups of work tha= t has been done in notes.ietf.org. > > Many people already occasionally make such backups, stash them away = in some unreliable way; others won=E2=80=99t and will start making queri= es of who has a backup and whether that is the most recent one. (This a= lready has happened. Don=E2=80=99t ask.) > >=20 > > Instead of burdening everyone with their own unstructured backup mec= hanisms, maybe it does make sense to keep something going at the IETF si= de. > >=20 > > (Being able to underlay a git repository would be the best technical= solution that still keeps most responsibility on the user side. > > But I don=E2=80=99t want to talk mechanism here, just that it is not= enough to issue another RFC 6919 "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON=E2=80=99T)=E2= =80=9D.) > >=20 > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > >=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:=20 > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe):=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:09:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D0103A1F6E; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ILFojZ8qEj5n; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CE2E3A1F8C; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H98pP5ny3z2xJS; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:07:57 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:07:57 +0200 Cc: IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> To: Working Chairs X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:08:07 -0000 > On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious proposal. I=E2=80=99ll treat is as such for the purpose of this message.) Or, don=E2=80=99t offer the service at all? (Probably better than deleting it 30 days after creation (!).) Most of the people who have done work in the IETF know about the value = of accessing random traces of that work from the past. After a couple of decades, we mostly got rid of the 6-month ideology = around Internet-Drafts; I wouldn=E2=80=99t want to repeat that painful = experience. Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or Google = docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a common service is that, after a while, = everybody knows how to use it and we can integrate it into other tools. Crippling such a service because we can=E2=80=99t figure out how to keep = up some ideology strikes me as an expression of contempt for the work of = the IETF=E2=80=99s contributors. You don=E2=80=99t have to feel the same way, but it should be well = understood that this is the signal that is being sent. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >> On 16 Sep 2021, at 5:39 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >> On 15. Sep 2021, at 21:21, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Robert, >>>=20 >>> This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then = people come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to = change, ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate = the data then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m not sure there isn=E2=80=99t an emoticon missing from = this message=E2=80=A6 >>=20 >> The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users = are responsible for the reliability of their operating systems. >> (One main reason that this never can work is that users have work to = do and are not in a mode to interrupt their work for arcane unrelated = activities.) >>=20 >> Here, users are effectively asked to make manual backups of work that = has been done in notes.ietf.org. >> Many people already occasionally make such backups, stash them away = in some unreliable way; others won=E2=80=99t and will start making = queries of who has a backup and whether that is the most recent one. = (This already has happened. Don=E2=80=99t ask.) >>=20 >> Instead of burdening everyone with their own unstructured backup = mechanisms, maybe it does make sense to keep something going at the IETF = side. >>=20 >> (Being able to underlay a git repository would be the best technical = solution that still keeps most responsibility on the user side. >> But I don=E2=80=99t want to talk mechanism here, just that it is not = enough to issue another RFC 6919 "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON=E2=80=99T)=E2=80= =9D.) >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:30:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF7E3A2014 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:29:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IMgFgFEGQcM3 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE2A83A2013 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:adc8:3fc3:1412:18cf]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 15F676003D5; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:29:42 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631780983; bh=3E2/JyUmJAxaoElTgqLIdagRcg89WFuk5+if6L0nh14=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=MEqMa+HAPsPNkVIH1qDw+OEg1H/UhB/zEY18eFNBIVyqAbNdR5tSl3YUsyiHOE6hB QjbYj8Fs9nBhE5qIUVbwuxvsYdN6CSNbvN1H5NpV/JYAPhEw2vE2VRHf7NobBrGP4M tqLL75uSdBfKHtHTQiW7mFuWV/uAafC7kTg39rvk= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <321F99DA-4F7D-4A40-B929-D78EF1DC9E39@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DA35FF19-314D-47C9-872E-4819B135D547"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:29:42 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org To: Martin Thomson References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> X-MailScanner-ID: 15F676003D5.A1F43 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:29:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DA35FF19-314D-47C9-872E-4819B135D547 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-9-16, at 11:07, Martin Thomson wrote: > And gist.github.com exists for the other stuff. the HedgeDoc version behind https://demo.hedgedoc.org/release-notes = already has an "export to gist" item in the top-right menu. The IETF version doesn't, but maybe that can be added with a config = change or an update to whatever version demo.hedgedoc.org is running? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_DA35FF19-314D-47C9-872E-4819B135D547 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFDAHYACgkQVLXDCb9w wVcZtRAAjYh6EQqaZ4qbaSG/bNvZsoh5k6OI9NLWJiSh4gNF8tZzsmenHB8qQAXg mJOld3eVbyWtWInUNoTgBv2+ymAkDCkQpotvyqgFGdP+Bo27Uh4IksYJkGvB2q0d y4Cn+hxIPPVimHrLT4N0jRirHGATGs1mGgPcco/Ixv/phuBATXYS9Wed6Eamse37 Qd0hYae8hZSs1nvGgbw32xlP/i3sIojUzUKDMIccnmOzNB8dnrG/tcbPaAdBb8lg tvOc2fRdGaz8T14r/7p0XK+g1DR2tFWs/+TcH6rWOt2Cr+q4K/F8BSV9tjkE3JxU BGGAs1cqR3RZ1DupFyZ5BLaw+0rXY2maE1uC4/HzEmabXXgI1qbKsHuqMDtKXG8A sC5TjoaxfUlw3qGbRdZWydcsANRutEion/1LJzytYAzHxcWn7nIwzCGyBaVbGR7+ 2Cu4LFWIwYI/Mpp7JdCvijzRUeKthH5L11WERGjzfwOeP+bXHAT3RJQpTDrMoJ/n LCHlC1s50f1hc1K10W0FhWeG6LR8Dz5eHpDnKse7y35+96u1EPNdhqsLyF2UTah+ 1dVjYyH/VjqteRL6iQxK7l2e5VTKdVRg7FgG7yobWmRxpus5roglBb6sF4iwqCrv 7cVqiM7cROfEC69Gnx0QoihVXa4Rcwa+B4fM6OiGhreanYzHESI= =cvPP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_DA35FF19-314D-47C9-872E-4819B135D547-- From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:31:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64613A2024; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:31:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=chUIvi2T; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=oE/zkYkA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CqHPaI-p_jPL; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC2933A2022; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1275C008D; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:31:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=r 0BVCJHZf+GAVrk7GOEZULnoE4gXaN8XhFmuxQ0/Lkk=; b=chUIvi2TbhxUWAzXT Yyd9t5gNhsRYvBWau5iJ3SOvoOZYRCTJ2uRkzsnZenl7i/HHI+c+krCy171jYVb0 bv4KLAcpQBksoOJqpl9IlswNzl3whfswbKslGTQ+hsECLdlLO8Qw+SS5iq2kI+OB hSbeMFatg3IF+yKWTdz4cUX79n9qzE1VfI6MRD+Ds6M47UJMee5OGbI3DVWyf0N3 rPlVHhc20MOVdgb3QC8Ky4lDDTBzc72Y2cOHm12D7romK9tcCMI6uowCgow6JCkF +QC5xVHvelLx+JqH7QZ/KfVP3p74JDbPV4haBLKPDVCLpa1nULH4IDxVZSqOExC6 oOTmw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=r0BVCJHZf+GAVrk7GOEZULnoE4gXaN8XhFmuxQ0/L kk=; b=oE/zkYkAixBq89vWZplLi/tWS8HnSfIxA6V5RFZilv5H0r2vftIvBzKO3 lccpPRo4KO88XoVHsnaDuzhMAHLkGPPgUQAf5s5Xm7jsIRJTom4o6dCfZsTUFDJU FvzMNhkhAmifC77FLzI5O7aFWAWHEGaLhWyE1vgTJvtywfDo5rvw3bsefebxpNL0 QJGh0Qni8svkp6W39mOMiISZMxeX5sT6kv1nR5mLLDiO3poFDij7HNN82CvZiwOO 4kSukc/vLNl6V08LI/y8uNk87XxBaDEb9cTbhDx+GLcPNxhheraGVuvIpaPPYTIT GdCZ5ED6+DbwMTsPBH5lLqnwFyNxA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudehgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurf hrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegr ihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjug hrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfho thhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnh epfeegvdfgjeegvdetuedukeevfefhheelieevjeejkefhffehkeejieekjedtheejnecu ffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuih iivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:31:27 +1000 Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:31:42 -0000 It was a very serious proposal. We already have a large number of places that people need to look for = data. Adding another is not optimal, especially when the purpose of the = tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference. > On 16 Sep 2021, at 6:07 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. >=20 > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious proposal. > I=E2=80=99ll treat is as such for the purpose of this message.) >=20 > Or, don=E2=80=99t offer the service at all? > (Probably better than deleting it 30 days after creation (!).) >=20 > Most of the people who have done work in the IETF know about the value = of accessing random traces of that work from the past. > After a couple of decades, we mostly got rid of the 6-month ideology = around Internet-Drafts; I wouldn=E2=80=99t want to repeat that painful = experience. >=20 > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or Google = docs) gives us more control. > Another benefit of having a common service is that, after a while, = everybody knows how to use it and we can integrate it into other tools. >=20 > Crippling such a service because we can=E2=80=99t figure out how to = keep up some ideology strikes me as an expression of contempt for the = work of the IETF=E2=80=99s contributors. > You don=E2=80=99t have to feel the same way, but it should be well = understood that this is the signal that is being sent. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >>> On 16 Sep 2021, at 5:39 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 15. Sep 2021, at 21:21, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Robert, >>>>=20 >>>> This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then = people come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to = change, ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate = the data then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99m not sure there isn=E2=80=99t an emoticon missing from = this message=E2=80=A6 >>>=20 >>> The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users = are responsible for the reliability of their operating systems. >>> (One main reason that this never can work is that users have work to = do and are not in a mode to interrupt their work for arcane unrelated = activities.) >>>=20 >>> Here, users are effectively asked to make manual backups of work = that has been done in notes.ietf.org. >>> Many people already occasionally make such backups, stash them away = in some unreliable way; others won=E2=80=99t and will start making = queries of who has a backup and whether that is the most recent one. = (This already has happened. Don=E2=80=99t ask.) >>>=20 >>> Instead of burdening everyone with their own unstructured backup = mechanisms, maybe it does make sense to keep something going at the IETF = side. >>>=20 >>> (Being able to underlay a git repository would be the best technical = solution that still keeps most responsibility on the user side. >>> But I don=E2=80=99t want to talk mechanism here, just that it is not = enough to issue another RFC 6919 "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON=E2=80=99T)=E2=80= =9D.) >>>=20 >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>=20 >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:34:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A933A1454; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:34:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BSsVANjmsUJ6; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95B753A0028; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H99NW1ffPz2xNp; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:34:03 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:34:02 +0200 Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 653474042.206255-f390bd7ccd9df7a9080e2824a25e08cd Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0114BD23-BD49-46D5-A824-7D76D8730AB4@tzi.org> References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:34:15 -0000 On 2021-09-16, at 10:31, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > We already have a large number of places that people need to look for = data. Adding another is not optimal, especially when the purpose of the = tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference. Sure. I just don=E2=80=99t know how crippling notes.ietf.org will help = with Google docs, hackmd.io, and all these other places. Actually, it = will drive people back to those. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:54:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3283A20D9; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:53:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=IQ+fXfV7; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=fFSKIinl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xgLxSz6mogpB; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60CB83A20D3; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B215C5C01DA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:53:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=/ jlXbNxwaUr7ae8n3q4vFp+jsPtG9W8Iqo+AVdU2qsQ=; b=IQ+fXfV7+3zMZMPsR c+/apIInmqrmXPZzvJi8tJfOsBLfvhrg0aXKyGViJvcBRoRxI3pPjUJJZxTT8oYU fuG+bY1Gp11Uk1EENF6bSWGZl+JSVviEHT2ikOSQ1XTJv+HWE/p8PyARNXCJFOKI UkVjk12E9D005qNdkZfXwej25Y2AbSlReltrQiJHEzOLFLLbgP+EWrpeTzWtCnqx QmHCjImaUtvV1TFC2637V/qtosEFvwq/0NIswgoQTdYrCv70lOhLsnMIjWLxKH1P YdmtF8G6pHsTHOn1qIu168/gzEdd1fsufg7y0va4JxMxG9Yx4O78i4xdlw00gg2T BMKDg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=/jlXbNxwaUr7ae8n3q4vFp+jsPtG9W8Iqo+AVdU2q sQ=; b=fFSKIinlx0U5T2rcOzW0C4u7VscQrc94TtdPs5+eSgxE0xF64/RqKfqXy ovyDcqd2egwSPqe4aD5PiZgLk1TnQzlWlXrhKhEIKTmn5YQ5v4dix1cuMkXpQfd4 e0T7hKDo5APXZQ002kpHB09bFZYE9l4kHkK2tZM+MU2+u6ZkMSlU5FwO85X7UEu0 U7kJj34YiJuDjwchI/V571I3gHA+LOTI/URbId0uDDPVVr/LzZOjIzgL2Jl2ak1L dXEG1S/9/ar+ic+MbX5xOMlwXO6SAEiNZgeuyuV4J3FFR+sZL5yg7JGML5huna/J 6ruoSKW9zY83PjMyNWJ8TX0qzTx3w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudehgedgtdehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeefgedvgfejgedvteeuudekveefhfehleeiveejjeekhfffheekjeeikeejtdeh jeenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhn vght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <0114BD23-BD49-46D5-A824-7D76D8730AB4@tzi.org> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:53:41 +1000 Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <36F7F377-FA9C-4A26-82D7-2F64E7F1045F@mnot.net> References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <0114BD23-BD49-46D5-A824-7D76D8730AB4@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:53:55 -0000 > On 16 Sep 2021, at 6:34 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2021-09-16, at 10:31, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >> We already have a large number of places that people need to look for = data. Adding another is not optimal, especially when the purpose of the = tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference. >=20 > Sure. I just don=E2=80=99t know how crippling notes.ietf.org will = help with Google docs, hackmd.io, and all these other places. Actually, = it will drive people back to those. I have so many questions :) Why is it an issue that people use those other services for scratch = documents?=20 If temporary documents aren't appropriate, what guarantees do you need = regarding archival storage, reliability, availability, etc? Why does the IETF have to run this service, instead of relying on a = third party? How do these now long-lived documents interact with RFCs, = Internet-Drafts, Datatracker and meeting proceedings (the various = sources of truth we currently have)? In particular, when someone = references a document there and presumes it's IETF-sanctioned? Who determines that it's worth the cost of providing such a long-lived = service? Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Sep 16 02:02:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9D63A210C; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 02:02:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nk3KKtkEOWjX; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 02:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D74043A210E; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 02:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H9B1X0vSWz2xHv; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:02:40 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <36F7F377-FA9C-4A26-82D7-2F64E7F1045F@mnot.net> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:02:39 +0200 Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 653475759.741195-54a729c4f5d8819b6942282e12a675b3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <0114BD23-BD49-46D5-A824-7D76D8730AB4@tzi.org> <36F7F377-FA9C-4A26-82D7-2F64E7F1045F@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:02:48 -0000 On 2021-09-16, at 10:53, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 >> On 16 Sep 2021, at 6:34 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >> On 2021-09-16, at 10:31, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>=20 >>> We already have a large number of places that people need to look = for data. Adding another is not optimal, especially when the purpose of = the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference. >>=20 >> Sure. I just don=E2=80=99t know how crippling notes.ietf.org will = help with Google docs, hackmd.io, and all these other places. Actually, = it will drive people back to those. >=20 > I have so many questions :) =E2=80=A6 and that is completely OK, because different WGs have = different ways to do work, so this all may not be obvious. > Why is it an issue that people use those other services for scratch = documents?=20 It is not an issue; it is a missed opportunity. I wrote: >> Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or = Google docs) gives us more control. >> Another benefit of having a common service is that, after a while, = everybody knows how to use it and we can integrate it into other tools. > If temporary documents aren't appropriate, what guarantees do you need = regarding archival storage, reliability, availability, etc? Reasonable care. The point is not that this needs to be protected against nuclear = attacks, but that we keep some basic level of service that is not = intentionally throwing away other people=E2=80=99s work. > Why does the IETF have to run this service, instead of relying on a = third party? See above. It doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Chave=E2=80=9D to run this service; it just = historically has done so and it turned out to be useful (much more = useful after the switch to CodiMD/Hedgedoc). > How do these now long-lived documents interact with RFCs, = Internet-Drafts, Datatracker and meeting proceedings (the various = sources of truth we currently have)? In particular, when someone = references a document there and presumes it's IETF-sanctioned? Then they are wrong. But they already can do that with Internet-Drafts. If that helps, add an obnoxious disclaimer at the top. > Who determines that it's worth the cost of providing such a long-lived = service? I don=E2=80=99t know the cost, but it seemed to be limited. (Etherpad was available for a long time, but was having availability = problems. Kudos to Robert for =E2=80=9Ccreating=E2=80=9D this problem in the first = place by switching to a more reliable software base.) Who determines the value? The users. I think we have a clear result = there (maybe not in your quarters of the IETF). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 16 05:32:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766263A275B for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:32:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=Pdhhhe+7; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=ArGL9n7R Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sVGRt6Ts1qdD for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 089073A275D for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108158.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18G5nNLK014368; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:32:14 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=tQmNoyDXfH9MtHO7fUeBWKTrS2bTVU94LKuZtPXx94s=; b=Pdhhhe+7H68NEO9x5HlK19iYH7llw+ov1mQLdqVna8mSQCyDZDrwtb1H8HA7vAg4BhWt Cpn1cOek/sg+3Zek2x0IuHq7LvYyEe0/Xu6y1sjt8oA+JLvl8HmCAA/bkBEEkZVB9g/c WRDTMIDJAmuUMWpM8vsDbn/8S8f2NGJwD4iGy2t9Yg3tSarkV4ztB/zuJj3urJXqE7Do QnIU3BJtsBcB8/Z70PROKUqzx9dvUUiJgD+hfbvhWAt8EIcwCziDHq734jwwDALOMLM7 WjKkQrnkpCLXrW3x9wqswpBNFZY0h3bR4Th5qGkvmfnr74KGzYY9wLCVD0dP+i5tSuCu tg== Received: from nam11-dm6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm6nam11lp2171.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.57.171]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3b4044rhyc-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:32:13 -0700 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=of8BSfgdzbT/gVwDSCQO7Wzs9DNyUX9N5tLVktD8kJmSgQGyLFd7XoNDlukDa+nROjSVKxjqCPaUhBuzUrbxXH2YWF5yNYPmqZZLTsOQCJa5qj7mWvErC7/HsFW70AJzXDq/+BMMSYfUcR0eQoUHibV9c+tQ823cbljcM1LnJn8Tn6eFWIE9UNeOe4dM0u680iSVVFevSsvwCsKBPeP6AOrdtBCbzfIYqlBOauTjzsVZOpkmIH3YMqlEIrwAaIhiN767WixfbRUes+lQhWv4P94CNC0ucJvCsESixwGENMVTL0GsosaorwswxpWriz9teOnZBNFaVT6LGSwptIKBsw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=tQmNoyDXfH9MtHO7fUeBWKTrS2bTVU94LKuZtPXx94s=; b=BfHlJrpmNGrcFh9nfyk5nX+lWBaRVNFCFjBDF/uepK53QSvPyL4Esf4qtC9WR8uPKRyvUFd4fZD62O67fUuLcqiC/0uZM/Slw0A1eUhXpQfjW+Y0VMYLqPRU+7C2u9QNy/Uf7GpsGQHmGWyC0rFeeN6p+9J4z0Uvd8csGv9G/5Xs4lrApeayHzwMgZR/yycGWJ3x1L9af5G5YaGCQ27FdQ7/cgCSAMO9u1UxguxWqneggchpLp7ZxoaYC/an8pVw4eyYz915Dy5lM0WZADVxQue73XQ/CWe3Su/5RT0+t6RnRhd5qiOnyUy3/guakTBrgkIsNeBx5N6SExXjmwd0Ow== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=juniper.net; dkim=pass header.d=juniper.net; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=tQmNoyDXfH9MtHO7fUeBWKTrS2bTVU94LKuZtPXx94s=; b=ArGL9n7Rj5JW08SnzewFJUYZ/+OYmfkfymeWIr+6rf8lWgTS0kzl4cWAgE5F/tVt9a2g7vLHXLT8VLShA8zISI5jwusdPBEr3dxRVTOBfD2V8v/rStVR4L5cpsV7TIlH5NObX9XS6g+r6Jp0KZRtANmep/xVUBcgvTZmLX0glN0= Received: from BL0PR05MB5652.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:6a::19) by BL0PR05MB5315.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:61::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4544.6; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:32:11 +0000 Received: from BL0PR05MB5652.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d938:9f8d:5254:55e]) by BL0PR05MB5652.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d938:9f8d:5254:55e%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4523.016; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:32:10 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Benjamin Kaduk , Donald Eastlake , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" CC: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" Thread-Topic: slow tools reaction Thread-Index: AdeqkmaET1fzeK3iSICUOrTudWK5CAAATsb3AAM3moAABDXzgAAQrktg Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:32:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.6.100.41 dlp-reaction: no-action msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=7b0182f1-f971-42e0-9fa0-a388a3afc121; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ContentBits=0; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2021-09-16T12:12:07Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; authentication-results: mit.edu; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;mit.edu; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7433819b-8a72-419f-c0da-08d9790e0149 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL0PR05MB5315: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BL0PR05MB5652.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(122000001)(52536014)(38100700002)(76116006)(8676002)(110136005)(316002)(5660300002)(966005)(8936002)(55016002)(9686003)(6506007)(508600001)(186003)(38070700005)(33656002)(53546011)(26005)(4326008)(2906002)(83380400001)(71200400001)(3480700007)(7116003)(86362001)(66556008)(66446008)(66476007)(64756008)(66946007)(40140700001)(7696005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?STYzb1BCNHZBdEEzVlg2cjdYSmhSUGNXblQ3S0xZNy9RKzNHWk5YcGd1bWZI?= =?utf-8?B?KzFGV0c4UC9DTURwMG5mc0liR1Q2bzJqNXBOUkFzZEhpdFlXRmJpZWw0M01D?= =?utf-8?B?azZ0ZmVIc3Rja3hCbFhOWWhBT1d0ZW1RcDlMdzVZdmhORzh1WE5UR3E2Yzdn?= =?utf-8?B?OUJxM1hkU0ZrUHliakFqZ24wYi9jWlZrN3FiTmMwSGVGM09PUzlZUktscmNs?= =?utf-8?B?QWk0eDVKOVFRbzFvdWZNZzh3bGZjcUlpd2lhTlJHUWlXZlNlaExyaVAxS2Zw?= =?utf-8?B?VTVtMHF0RlhxZ2ZJNm5oVDFaWTJ2Q2Q2UWxxTEVqYWh2MnFLbG44R0Y4bjZo?= =?utf-8?B?ckdoRmEyZ05KVHNXb0puYTNablRvYkJ2THdqay9nS2Uza0ppUkxwR3ZBYVhk?= =?utf-8?B?WGl3NjdLWnlzRVM0azkrT0lqeUowM3hZb25yU0ZQUGJoTisvb3AveVNsU3U3?= =?utf-8?B?TU56cC9FcytpdGxDZkRtT2kxRm9nK0VkS3E5a1E5ZURJR3dxbll3YzVjTEJk?= =?utf-8?B?aGN3TXpSTkdZSnhvUURibWltNmJuWDczczJWajNPTVlRd3RsWGpua1loZU16?= =?utf-8?B?azMwR2dzZWFMU25OeitNOEdOMldhT2pQODI5VEVmZ1BpYTZWVkEzSlp3M0w1?= =?utf-8?B?TXRSTHZIbTUwQ0lRM2tRLy85N01tY1o1KzBkMVhtTHF1TG9ha1VYaERFcGNw?= =?utf-8?B?SmNqWkFDcTQ4TEtxVWJIV2FXRCt3MFlwSStJb0pkU3N0emt0RVVNMDVOeE5p?= =?utf-8?B?MEdhTjk1Ti9XUWxzeUFtS2ptT0VveHpTRXNDNXJ0aDZXTldPZTRnUlczcTlx?= =?utf-8?B?bVJTbmJ1VGtXWTgvYVFTNDh2MFMyUDc4Ti9GRGJyV2NVRFVEem9pckJtWjZW?= =?utf-8?B?dWFVS1hOWGtNZ3h4eC9oREx0QzZQUnQ2aGFJa3RScVN2VDhuTUxGc0ludXRj?= =?utf-8?B?REsvVTk5cis4WWVzSVUvWlg1bEFDQkp6QW0wdHdOcG91NmpiUkU4TFc4TDdj?= =?utf-8?B?MkdwMWZYRS9oS2FOcEQ2eWFyNForWUtDZ2ZOem5UZk1vUVVvOWVHRDdLNmpq?= =?utf-8?B?RHcxY2ZDZndUdGhqUS9ENXpmUlAzTGhUd2pUdHZJUUJQZUtvZGV4Y3hBL0lP?= =?utf-8?B?V2RIRlpib0JFVVVjTlJHQ2c0VnRXY3R5N2RNUXRzdTNjTW10d3A0elpDd3Iw?= =?utf-8?B?UTZIQ3RVdWJBUnJaRklYcjFXUm5mVkZjeGpJVkt0UXFqbEpoR2JEMlRlN2cy?= =?utf-8?B?V2J2dlJTZUtXVm15M3pWS2ROTk1aTldXT1FYSjNsaURLUWlPR09uYlRDMEc1?= =?utf-8?B?aDgyQ2t4MGE5RzJzWW9pcWJCUFNaWVNpVFlLc2o0ZmJNUFdiNHlHWDhzQWJs?= =?utf-8?B?U2IrYjc2UStwZTh3MFk4ZzR5SVdCb0p6eDBHRkZnWEJqSjUyQmZrNWJrcGx3?= =?utf-8?B?K25CZlR4eVdqYVlBSkVRUDUvYkYvZXRwRjFnNHZGVEFMb3hSQkJ2cTI1eHF5?= =?utf-8?B?MWVIejJ6VTZFcHlPZFlRdG94MHdwcExlOXRRSDFoM0NsMitDeG53QnlsMlNX?= =?utf-8?B?bkRNUEdzbGgxeDNKeHFwVUpBZ0hQUnBZeHBtd2poaG9qKzJUQ0V3WXVWQnBm?= =?utf-8?B?TlBNK2d1Qk1pc0lQYkMxdnpiVFAwdnIycEdpNDcwRkx3WWpxWExNZUI1ZUhT?= =?utf-8?B?am1XSHNpUTFzbGkzK0VWL0tzNG9uVlRPUytGYmI1c2F5U2RPUEVHWFNhaUs0?= =?utf-8?Q?3FwHQIBgIioUSSP8TXDWiLfrvs5a8t3UEd9zvWG?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL0PR05MB5652.namprd05.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7433819b-8a72-419f-c0da-08d9790e0149 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Sep 2021 12:32:10.6100 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /wbDIy52gqx2WLgbusUAXC+3n1yPTQJuEbsUQ1PU3NbR7cN8HV6BbYtfrbMmQNfJC1iu0RZkdBodhbZU7lQNAQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR05MB5315 X-Proofpoint-GUID: H0_03YkLIPGMbuz_1Qo4m9JtgwKYSd9H X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: H0_03YkLIPGMbuz_1Qo4m9JtgwKYSd9H X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-16_04,2021-09-16_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxlogscore=999 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109160080 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:32:22 -0000 WyBtb3ZpbmcgdG8gdG9vbHMtZGlzY3VzcyBdDQoNCkhpIEJlbiwNCg0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHBv aW50aW5nIG91dCB0aGUgZGVjb21taXNzaW9uaW5nLiBTb3JyeSBmb3Igbm90IG5vdGljaW5nIHRo ZSBhbm5vdW5jZW1lbnQgYmVmb3JlLCBhbmQgYXBwYXJlbnRseSB0aGVyZSBhcmUgcXVpdGUgc29t ZSBwZW9wbGUgbGlrZSBtZSDwn5iKDQoNCkFueXdheSwgSSB1c2UgdGhlIGRpZmYvaWRuaXQvc3Bl bGwveG1sMnJmYyBhbmQgZHJhZnQgc3VibWlzc2lvbiB0b29scyBhdCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZyBh bmQgdGhleSd2ZSBiZWVuIHNsb3cgcmVjZW50bHkuIEFmdGVyIGxlYXJuaW5nIHRoYXQgdG9vbHMu aWV0Zi5vcmcgaXMgcmVwbGFjZWQgYnkgdGhlIGRhdGF0cmFja2VyLCBJIHdlbnQgdG8gZGF0YXRy YWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcuIFRoZXJlIHRoZSBvbmx5IGxpbmtzIHJlbGF0ZWQgdG8gdGhlIHRvb2xz IHRoYXQgSSB1c2UgYXJlICJEcmFmdCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uIiB1bmRlciB0aGUgIkRvY3VtZW50cyIg dGFiLCBhbmQgIklFVEYgVG9vbHMiIGF0IHRoZSBsb3dlciByaWdodCBib3R0b20uDQoNCkhvd2V2 ZXIsICJJRVRGIFRvb2xzIiBzaW1wbHkgcG9pbnRzIHRvICJ0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZyIsIGFuZCAi RHJhZnQgU3VibWlzc2lvbiIgbGluayBpbiAidG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmciIGlzIHRoZSBzYW1lIGFz ICJEcmFmdCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uIiB1bmRlciB0aGUgIkRvY3VtZW50cyIgdGFiIChhbGwgcG9pbnQg dG8gaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9zdWJtaXQvKS4NCg0KU28gSSBhbSBzdGls bCBhIGJpdCBsb3N0IC0gYXBwcmVjaWF0ZSBpZiBzb21lb25lIGNvdWxkIHNoYXJlIGEgbGluayB0 byB0aGUgYW5ub3VuY2VtZW50IHRoYXQgSSBtaXNzZWQuDQoNClRoYW5rcy4NCkplZmZyZXkNCg0K LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IEJlbmphbWluIEthZHVrIDxrYWR1a0Bt aXQuZWR1Pg0KU2VudDogVGh1cnNkYXksIFNlcHRlbWJlciAxNiwgMjAyMSAxMjoxNCBBTQ0KVG86 IERvbmFsZCBFYXN0bGFrZSA8ZDNlM2UzQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4NCkNjOiB3Z2NoYWlyc0BpZXRmLm9y ZzsgTWFua2FtYW5hIE1pc2hyYSAobWFua2FtaXMpIDxtYW5rYW1pc0BjaXNjby5jb20+OyBKZWZm cmV5IChaaGFvaHVpKSBaaGFuZyA8enpoYW5nQGp1bmlwZXIubmV0Pg0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IHNs b3cgdG9vbHMgcmVhY3Rpb24NCg0KW0V4dGVybmFsIEVtYWlsLiBCZSBjYXV0aW91cyBvZiBjb250 ZW50XQ0KDQoNCkkgYXNzdW1lIHRoYXQgZXZlcnlvbmUgaXMgcmVmZXJyaW5nIHRvIHNpdGVzIGhv c3RlZCB1bmRlciB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZywNCnRoZSBvbGQgc2VydmVyIHRoYXQgaXMgc2xhdGVk IGZvciBkZWNvbW1pc2lvbmluZy4NCkkgaGF2ZSBzZWVuIHNsb3duZXNzIGFzIHdlbGwsIGJ1dCBp dCBkb2VzIG5vdCByZWFsbHkgY29uY2VybiBtZSBtdWNoDQpiZWNhdXNlIGV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcgSSBy ZWd1bGFybHkgdXNlIGlzIGFjdHVhbGx5IG9uIHRoZSBkYXRhdHJhY2tlciwgYW5kIHRoZQ0Kc2xv d25lc3Mgb25seSBjb21lcyBhYm91dCBiZWNhdXNlIGxpbmtzIChlLmcuLCBmcm9tIGdvb2dsZSkg aGF2ZSBub3QNCnVwZGF0ZWQgdG8gcG9pbnQgdG8gZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIgZGlyZWN0bHkgaW5zdGVh ZCBvZiB0b29scy4NCg0KQWxzbywgdG9vbHMtZGlzY3VzcyBpcyBwcm9iYWJseSBhIGJldHRlciBs aXN0IGF0IHdoaWNoIHRvIGRpc2N1c3MgYW55DQppc3N1ZXMuDQoNCi1CZW4NCg0KT24gV2VkLCBT ZXAgMTUsIDIwMjEgYXQgMTA6MTM6NTVQTSAtMDQwMCwgRG9uYWxkIEVhc3RsYWtlIHdyb3RlOg0K PiBNZSB0b28uLi4NCj4NCj4gVGhhbmtzLA0KPiBEb25hbGQNCj4gPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PQ0KPiAgRG9uYWxkIEUuIEVhc3RsYWtlIDNyZCAgICsxLTUwOC0zMzMtMjI3 MCAoY2VsbCkNCj4gIDIzODYgUGFub3JhbWljIENpcmNsZSwgQXBvcGthLCBGTCAzMjcwMyBVU0EN Cj4gIGQzZTNlM0BnbWFpbC5jb20NCj4NCj4gT24gV2VkLCBTZXAgMTUsIDIwMjEgYXQgODo0MiBQ TSBNYW5rYW1hbmEgTWlzaHJhIChtYW5rYW1pcykNCj4gPG1hbmthbWlzPTQwY2lzY28uY29tQGRt YXJjLmlldGYub3JnPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gPg0KPiA+IFllcyAsIGl04oCZcyBiZWVuIHNsb3cgZm9y IG1lIHRvbyAuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBNYW5rYW1hbmENCj4gPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+IEZyb206IFdHQ2hhaXJzIDx3Z2NoYWlycy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3Jn PiBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgSmVmZnJleSAoWmhhb2h1aSkgWmhhbmcgPHp6aGFuZz00MGp1bmlwZXIu bmV0QGRtYXJjLmlldGYub3JnPg0KPiA+IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDE1LCAy MDIxIDU6MzM6MzIgUE0NCj4gPiBUbzogd2djaGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgPHdnY2hhaXJzQGlldGYu b3JnPg0KPiA+IFN1YmplY3Q6IHNsb3cgdG9vbHMgcmVhY3Rpb24NCj4gPg0KPiA+IEhpLA0KPiA+ DQo+ID4gSXMgaXQganVzdCBtZSBvciBoYXZlIHlvdSBhbHNvIG5vdGljZWQgdGhhdCBJRVRGIHRv b2xzIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBxdWl0ZSBzbG93IHJlY2VudGx5Pw0KPiA+DQo+ID4gVGhhbmtzLg0KPiA+ IEplZmZyZXkNCj4gPg0KPiA+IEp1bmlwZXIgQnVzaW5lc3MgVXNlIE9ubHkNCj4gPg0KPg0KDQpK dW5pcGVyIEJ1c2luZXNzIFVzZSBPbmx5DQo= From nobody Thu Sep 16 07:29:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387643A2B04 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:29:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1YQov8DNbjFw for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E2483A2B01 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18GETjdX046086 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:29:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631802586; bh=Wk2CWKvOv9OlPXYGXw/HbHzSx/dfcMvbKx+AqTDcq3M=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=JlcWT5X/9hCbFMNVwX1WEvJ46WsXn9wjnn4ncaDcClv7udLC9qWMFN2zyZfYVQyT/ uuQhtCNasg/oqK2prxFrC7KfSmk8PepYYqW0FiYNJ4leDH85nQ/nbS14BZKui8Fx9a 6i+d/e9hrThatFfMByJ3mHJB7zKLdNOg1rJHVqkA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:29:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:29:55 -0000 Jeffrey - On 9/16/21 7:32 AM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > [ moving to tools-discuss ] > > Hi Ben, > > > Thanks for pointing out the decommissioning. Sorry for not noticing the= announcement before, and apparently there are quite some people like me = =F0=9F=98=8A > > Anyway, I use the diff/idnit/spell/xml2rfc and draft submission tools a= t tools.ietf.org and they've been slow recently. After learning that tool= s.ietf.org is replaced by the datatracker, I went to datatracker.ietf.org= =2E There the only links related to the tools that I use are "Draft Submi= ssion" under the "Documents" tab, and "IETF Tools" at the lower right bot= tom. rfcdiff is at www.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff (this is where you will land if = you use the diff features from the History tab any draft. idnits is at www.ietf.org/tools/idnits (also where you land if you click = the [! Nits] button on the main datatracker page for any draft.) (Yes, both rfcdiff and idnits have an odd behavior of temporarily=20 redirecting to www6, and serving an older skin, but that will be=20 addressed soon.) This is the first request I've seen to provide something like the spell=20 service - we will look at adding something like that. We are actively working on a re-implementations of the bibxml and online = xml2rfc conversion services, and are very much aware of the slowness and = occasional incorrect behavior of the current xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org. We are also building a replacement for the current tools.ietf.org front=20 page. RjS > > However, "IETF Tools" simply points to "tools.ietf.org", and "Draft Sub= mission" link in "tools.ietf.org" is the same as "Draft Submission" under= the "Documents" tab (all point to https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/).= > > So I am still a bit lost - appreciate if someone could share a link to = the announcement that I missed. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/oYrAxb3KayPzZ4SNB1DVZ= TDPPNo/=20 (which was copied to ietf@ietf.org, and forwarded to wgchairs@ietf.org. As all things seem to be in the IETF, it is taking slightly longer than=20 expected, but we are on track for turning down the current=20 tools.ietf.org by the end of the year. As I ask in that note, if there are things you rely on at tools.ietf.org = that are not yet available somewhere else, send a note to this list. (The remaining things other than the services at xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org=20 that are already identified and waiting to be addressed are pdf-ized=20 versions of drafts, dailydose, and a small handful of things that used=20 metadata from tools that are being adjusted to use metadata from the=20 datatracker). RjS > > Thanks. > Jeffrey > > -----Original Message----- > From: Benjamin Kaduk > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 12:14 AM > To: Donald Eastlake > Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org; Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) = ; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Subject: Re: slow tools reaction > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > I assume that everyone is referring to sites hosted under tools.ietf.or= g, > the old server that is slated for decommisioning. > I have seen slowness as well, but it does not really concern me much > because everything I regularly use is actually on the datatracker, and = the > slowness only comes about because links (e.g., from google) have not > updated to point to datatracker directly instead of tools. > > Also, tools-discuss is probably a better list at which to discuss any > issues. > > -Ben > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 10:13:55PM -0400, Donald Eastlake wrote: >> Me too... >> >> Thanks, >> Donald >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >> 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA >> d3e3e3@gmail.com >> >> On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 8:42 PM Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) >> wrote: >>> Yes , it=E2=80=99s been slow for me too . >>> >>> Mankamana >>> ________________________________ >>> From: WGChairs on behalf of Jeffrey (Zhao= hui) Zhang >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 5:33:32 PM >>> To: wgchairs@ietf.org >>> Subject: slow tools reaction >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Is it just me or have you also noticed that IETF tools have been quit= e slow recently? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> Jeffrey >>> >>> Juniper Business Use Only >>> > Juniper Business Use Only > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Thu Sep 16 12:23:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1492D3A0A01; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:22:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pZ_kZBxKSud1; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2522F3A09FD; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [142.169.78.235]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 252171F459; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:22:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id C14431A028E; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dooku (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA3E1A018B; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:22:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss In-reply-to: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> Comments: In-reply-to Carsten Bormann message dated "Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:07:57 +0200." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:22:31 -0400 Message-ID: <1534366.1631820151@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:22:44 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious proposal. I= =E2=80=99ll treat > is as such for the purpose of this message.) Well, I'm serious. I think 30 days might be way too long.=20=20 WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end of the session. It's not hard. But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within the day, and there will be some crying. Some WG session minutes will go away.=20=20 > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or Google > docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a common > service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it and we > can integrate it into other tools. Agreed. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAmFDmXcACgkQlUzhVv38 QpBsXwf/cXY0sFFEwJUDMAa8voVqpx8Se9xHWvVs0McaGjcyrWM4J193YF8+Wlfj RNsikKj2gHZ74KZoreumyHi8TOXxwLf7aaslClqnNP/bAG3xngGcjU7RjlmYc2+c yY3dTWKOqCOzn/bH4DqLe6NgrW1sYBzdwAcYT3x94FAuEsQvvhmfeb0guBfYa2uo xYntTIjFowzVX8vgWZFMKosXnplBZdfygDxSx/f5Yv+qSsN7sYqI9VO5WLrnCQkw RQvcKOZKOHekFnocMN14Sm57sVDUilAQ8+py30m/gTViem1g/vM7lSqfuznqlhIn O0VLVPMEr+QTHBfuZD8Gc/V+SMkblA== =eCE+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Sep 16 12:39:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8077F3A0BA0 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lVJivqPwZ1eC for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx36-out20.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out20.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CED463A0BA4 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse126.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.126] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx133.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mQxDw-00055T-Fw for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:39:10 +0200 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4H9S7s2TRyzL7t for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.17] (helo=xmail07.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mQxDt-0002Yo-6m for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:05 -0700 Received: (qmail 18604 invoked from network); 16 Sep 2021 19:39:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.103]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.141]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail07.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 16 Sep 2021 19:39:01 -0000 To: Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:00 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1534366.1631820151@dooku> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.126 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5xYBsnYv/AS8SzTL27x6/ipEuOubvMjlOVGoG6MTUBsWIJL M0i5ZAms0EHrvcCaVIOwL6g7U0aBsAKVGf8/EQY5zIXV52OyeiH3YVVX92r9x1Hy6O0dCYlf9T05 vJHa3fKcXUnX/NPpaaHkXcvmoaj84xG2XC2LNoOkp4vxUMQqVx6IjGdSKn6aI9pXlx3shQxNOuP9 1GZ8SLb9PsvsohdeIRFsicyJMEhQFtD8PLoinjFCU0tibMaZMfiByLA2q5th8eXuGDB+WvlcaPhs +IMOep61KNolF2DlH2a2LdpMMmtrv2iUsvl2CC901V0YBrviEnzvvDcGs5qmm9XDE2pdZWZmIMWJ G2DzNierwWd45v2o1X92Cn4UU9JJ17dQkS7izDj4VfLGYhV5rU4pWppWERZjMvwfvbhZOry+t8BT U6S6BiS1pgrDY9yDlGBfLaRjewJ1p2KNOGtnsuIcf3b/prnOfejoy0ryl/SE9sCR4JkwTwd6I5MF c+Z5FxsZqYBzHDeqqFz43py4SDhdaHkWtttM+AEGzHMWbMjn66ZaUCrNIt931t/mGMxkBVmaFrqt DmlZnYjwZc5VTp/GtdDTYu8C5mJ57ZG9g9QfbBpIF04i48Xcfj93b8optspViB3ujwN5vAr2fQEN gxhN/KmvT74ZEqLd8l9FM+v8+4kcTSHRnGlLwP7kpBmnXyTU4KYKu19hO5DULTHYDQNvhFY/EfmH 2bRZHdAL/dpgC3sNYkAcBOz1PkEegH8AJOn+0/1m4zuNRcgRKiGg7nXFaZTx26XSvuqDb6Zf+dx5 dgaZqkGzYuvv4qY3WsmxcjdQAfg9va+zHJ1uMyxbJq8sS5DA9QD4Mrh3Bu2caezxvyq0YcMzxHWq +DzXvdqOFJyZFEBrwytzyq4nhu0+m3/YUu4UViekgyyW3O5RhlUL6+pD+okHwEE9dSrTROzD4Zdv KoVh3+MrOOK4NgfP/RZivWtTxypUhWZ7DV/QthUn4wTjFg== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:39:17 -0000 On 9/16/2021 12:22 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> > >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. > > > (Again, I don’t know whether this was a serious proposal. I’ll treat > > is as such for the purpose of this message.) > > Well, I'm serious. > I think 30 days might be way too long. > > WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end of the > session. It's not hard. > But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within the day, > and there will be some crying. Some WG session minutes will go away. > > > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or Google > > docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a common > > service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it and we > > can integrate it into other tools. > > Agreed. The IETF already archives mail messages and Internet drafts. How hard would it be to archive notes and minutes? After all, this texts are part of the standard making process, covered by the Note Well, etc. -- Christian Huitema From nobody Thu Sep 16 12:50:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62CB3A0CF9; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:50:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FHuj05ICdiRg; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BDC33A0CF0; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [142.169.78.235]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CB9E1F4A5; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:50:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id BBBAD1A028E; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:50:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dooku (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9DA91A018B; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:50:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Christian Huitema , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss In-reply-to: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> Comments: In-reply-to Christian Huitema message dated "Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:00 -0700." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:50:01 -0400 Message-ID: <1536418.1631821801@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:50:11 -0000 --==-=-= Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Christian Huitema wrote: > The IETF already archives mail messages and Internet drafts. How hard > would it be to archive notes and minutes? After all, this texts are > part of the standard making process, covered by the Note Well, etc. Sure, just upload them as minutes to the DT, and it gets archived already. For now, WG chairs need to do that, which also means that they have an opportunity to review the conent. A significant annoyance is that we don't have a standard markdown across all our content archives. --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: Signature =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-=-- --==-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAmFDn+kACgkQlUzhVv38 QpCRFQf+JF9sSzN2/ZOTrIaKqNsZ6WsRcKwSdF0X2d4DIz1I5mb1OEyBya7vVcBk FKCv5VDzm9NmN2yQmD7Du6aNv2fMXfKQFvNLSmr8H4ix8Xrizf+8l7X4X4T4Owdw 4BvjRNdsM20Z9MUK6b5PHUWXzBIZ3LMlw8K8TMxqhbb8FGkhYn1cMXGLwCTmbkgf bqRUc36s/obMpBNCa6gYs+/FV7bTdMuWZn4jpwmc/az623Xxy8RM9FvIYG4JBqZI K8AG/zxg973Rpe+0wM4Yk7sxPnbEXyV15iujSWV4eJY+oSESpvsUe4QWbI4FZbDi 3NJR3TfNc/CNLHeIC6PrP62HWAAmIA== =VDUe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==-=-=-- From nobody Thu Sep 16 12:58:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4073A0E3F; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oi-kwL4OcvUD; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com (mail-pl1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D33533A0E37; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id o8so4641370pll.1; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=sender:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language :thread-index; bh=XznZCZhZ8VVe2K3QASP+UL3+jm/Hcb54DU2+xgZFKj4=; b=DNznXNqOqn6Ydaa5MvyKMmUsf0Ym9tOr/drlAlZX2aEtqBCQ4o1GVhR5d1pK/lIfhs 9XBs7y3rTYJeN3cvwG4DqZ7d3E2o0cXsgVo60nXJKphLSXqq7G91iBwZDWgRloFQoyTF R84dOpDO1YrFcp75J68MF6q9ZgQ2dl0dPpYvi+aphHscFUw8nXOhziD8A6aG1Hs7iz2l 29PYFyUVuWZkLaG0z0aGKkWCSFpP66BQ2zruFcaMRH7obZ0QGQK5Yg3oOjDkWoKD/mym YnD3OHIwaaWpFw1ihKwMFZRpxOf2e+y57u/ANi7Ef63oGr1owjOU5nnsRlrVvp+3gCA+ flNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject :date:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-language:thread-index; bh=XznZCZhZ8VVe2K3QASP+UL3+jm/Hcb54DU2+xgZFKj4=; b=ra6D8N/HFpONd+pfcpIZdzg14uheLcrWQSPlXhsZzUISvyYa08V0EmJ5LCNuceCbBh mTJEEhBOIVL0dXtg/3EfJs4tR+ccLc6JSUHskVgDK7AswYrKbBt+aJn7yEXv6qlBw6zH U3xvPRKc26t8ygbYJE11Dt4qjQLTXwas2t6S/nDZRRAQvAEZz5NLCjRdOfmrVKnjo0gr K0yqYmIa233eBdIntY/dakDLln6jM3gLrz24sTJMdeELCq/Ey1uVs17wH4ETcr2suD5o r5VtTPRLzrhsDnw6nnUkVLCnv/YFZ7xOvwPbuLTE/kqykYtaS8Pc+y6qcTt2fuiSrVL3 o6og== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531WTvbEOW0EfblxYKVAYRn5933iO3s84iTP97CG3dQTnjgQ8OgE uXDx7JavKzwuHIXN3XdFt/U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwIvr4EI8Q13Clenr81Fxr4KkzqLrTobH9kwcTf93Jjdch2vzeemhES6SQ4C2Un1b3T2unOhw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:428e:: with SMTP id p14mr16899483pjg.92.1631822314707; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TVPC (c-73-158-116-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.158.116.21]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q2sm8683429pjo.27.2021.09.16.12.58.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Larry Masinter From: Larry Masinter X-Google-Original-From: "Larry Masinter" To: "'Michael Richardson'" , "'Christian Huitema'" , "'Working Chairs'" , "'IETF discussion list'" , "'tools-discuss'" References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> In-Reply-To: <1536418.1631821801@dooku> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:33 -0700 Message-ID: <00d901d7ab35$3b0a0dd0$b11e2970$@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQFroSjbJClX/EKUW57R+f97epTZbwKpLyxdAUgSJKACI7oD/QIKVWouAhQCymcCDIhXAAFkEetxrBIILWA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:58:42 -0000 > A significant annoyance is that we don't have a standard markdown across all > our content archives. I'm not sure there's a standard way of signifying which flavor of markdown was used, for that matter. From nobody Thu Sep 16 13:03:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF773A0EDA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:02:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sU3FHehVEgXG; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 729893A0ED1; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id m11so9390401ioo.6; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:02:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gIgxDRljb8gvc7nmMuHJaqqmB/FxKHTibTbTl2TKuZ8=; b=Rk0URjLYMKiadsa1hkaExalahRqCCayDtL9YBsKyeCPJ08xCugifPEVzh9W8EpiTcS TUldGSY44qJW07NztQ8Z+o6dik0TkeGFx1ZasYmdp8vDCmBfx/lwSLQrL3FK6UW98/LQ OsY8caO3bguYrpWi13TAHe5W9tly/7BfW4stNdxHXE4F/CnKJyMN6Jlz++nq4ZOECrVc LSWOPgflpT7KBNj31u4DKK6PV3qyDC5+EnsCThGrjAjhQiI4cYgg4W12PSDYnBxX2WnZ NZtCEyqmL5Usi0Hogtb+rNz+3lig2TXOftC2146Hey3bnSA8FOwgbh065bm6azT6yFlA JlJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gIgxDRljb8gvc7nmMuHJaqqmB/FxKHTibTbTl2TKuZ8=; b=hZp5aRfOHHHhq6i8hOp6qh3nsgXus8ySRXx9XysQbuLJB+zkpnqwa1EFfHDOcyLSwy ykcOjis+r/Hpme0TMwDHcPykAns4lD4EjMt5iepyMElGCuSeyre9rCCL90aCW5AYRsF8 nAqNtlGButq7A/MivrB1Tz9QCulSXisSVJsolfZnOZ8B0BZ02YQnCJX5m64QSePlqtvD z8jVIUZYJWX3Iq2uZj42AV1z0YHc40G9d4jAYE+vi9dM+sx8qOL2olVmf4vRpNK9Fzl9 BQfjP1oXHagL6AbzxqGbabWf8Zc327R1nPRkg5E+oL6DcFJvwbA5Wq90vGb88DTkmZS5 hJTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533NoYFYhRAVHXSmoNHjZFOSgFJLitliUNTxmBjmNIRrSAzgugM0 2rYoA0/nyBO7w0JHyNpkZTUnIz9nEhzgZM4U7Bk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJycIzW0s1n/D9j2pWiURGKWvbFbUsG4xvQW6LNbbe1yD9XqXq31tK7cMhuewfI0giIF5ZDJG2RzQuMIG9N2Cnc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:16d4:: with SMTP id g20mr5798500jat.22.1631822569803; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:02:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:02:33 -0400 Message-ID: To: Christian Huitema Cc: Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009c12da05cc224c8f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:02:57 -0000 --0000000000009c12da05cc224c8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christian, Completed minutes are archived in the Datatracker. These are draft minutes that we're talking about here. Cheers, Andy On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 3:39 PM Christian Huitema wrote: > > On 9/16/2021 12:22 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Carsten Bormann wrote: > > >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham > wrote: > > >> > > >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. > > > > > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious proposal= . I=E2=80=99ll > treat > > > is as such for the purpose of this message.) > > > > Well, I'm serious. > > I think 30 days might be way too long. > > > > WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end o= f > the > > session. It's not hard. > > But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within the > day, > > and there will be some crying. Some WG session minutes will go away. > > > > > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or > Google > > > docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a common > > > service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it an= d > we > > > can integrate it into other tools. > > > > Agreed. > > The IETF already archives mail messages and Internet drafts. How hard > would it be to archive notes and minutes? After all, this texts are part > of the standard making process, covered by the Note Well, etc. > > -- Christian Huitema > > --0000000000009c12da05cc224c8f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Christian,

Completed minutes are archiv= ed in the Datatracker. These are draft minutes=C2=A0that we're talking = about here.

Cheers,
Andy

<= /div>


On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 3:39 PM Christian Huitema <<= a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net> wrote:

On 9/16/2021 12:22 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Carsten Bormann <= cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingha= m <mnot@mnot.net&= gt; wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 da= ys after creation.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was= a serious proposal.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ll treat
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > is as such for the purpose of this message.)<= br> >
> Well, I'm serious.
> I think 30 days might be way too long.
>
> WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end = of the
> session.=C2=A0 It's not hard.
> But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within th= e day,
> and there will be some crying.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Some WG session minutes wil= l go away.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Collecting notes in our own service (as oppos= ed to hac= kmd.io or Google
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > docs) gives us more control.=C2=A0 Another be= nefit of having a common
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > service is that, after a while, everybody kno= ws how to use it and we
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > can integrate it into other tools.
>
> Agreed.

The IETF already archives mail messages and Internet drafts. How hard
would it be to archive notes and minutes? After all, this texts are part of the standard making process, covered by the Note Well, etc.

-- Christian Huitema

--0000000000009c12da05cc224c8f-- From nobody Thu Sep 16 13:37:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1450F3A11D1 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:37:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ku38M1zGHxnd for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49A0A3A11CF for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122331.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18GJTjje012000 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:37:12 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=Dnz7GSr5jqdfD1VyYbXGe8U7rOUDDovhRCM37HX2dGE=; b=kguKDRH3pmh+ke5iFqxueWgYXUamX368NDC9DEaGcbZF+lxTf6a5ij+ClODf5NS/xAyQ xb5mbgYNSky74DddqPIiBkEfIGXbrDq08Z+hQO9/5IiJwW5Cz8WMYimmjQ5DfaWC6zMT A6GJXsmw2RVQ69ikPXI1AzHhHH7to1QUH+xJxrvwMpgF/mteSA+Z8/h94l2jcrDFU4w4 KTnGlKkXnb4gLbmfNV2Q4k+srP2cq5KNYrgFu++ZGVPafCoA2EBkB3gToEqlIk1Mg0VI LKarYPD8wUSGWvoUAEPVTiwFGzteSamj01rFy7quNYP6xFaV3nCbI1FsVlnBy6J1usJ6 iw== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint2 (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [184.51.33.19] (may be forged)) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3b41kcfc0y-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:37:12 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18GKZJJQ021158 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:37:11 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.57]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3b39732swu-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:37:11 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:37:11 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:37:11 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: tools-discuss Thread-Topic: [hedgedoc/hedgedoc] Add compulsory information popup (#1637) Thread-Index: AQHXqzQ5xyagfdjwJUK8oWjzou4pbKunHtYA Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:37:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.53.21090501 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B03B5355AD754E3B9C0CCDD68223A5ACakamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-16_06:2021-09-16, 2021-09-16 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109160120 X-Proofpoint-GUID: BpIeG8PW-rB281-cJE6JzK142mIvyN-Q X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: BpIeG8PW-rB281-cJE6JzK142mIvyN-Q X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-16_06,2021-09-16_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 clxscore=1015 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109160120 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.19) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint2 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] FW: [hedgedoc/hedgedoc] Add compulsory information popup (#1637) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:37:21 -0000 --_000_B03B5355AD754E3B9C0CCDD68223A5ACakamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RllJLCB3aGF0IHdlIG5lZWQgd2lsbCBiZSBpbiBIZWRnZURvYyAyLg0KDQpGcm9tOiBUaWxtYW4g VmF0dGVyb3RoIDxub3RpZmljYXRpb25zQGdpdGh1Yi5jb20+DQpSZXBseS1UbzogaGVkZ2Vkb2Mv aGVkZ2Vkb2MgPHJlcGx5K0FCWDZGRkU2T0lPUUhaNExaNFFLQTJON0o2QVRQRVZCTkhIRFc0WFBQ VUByZXBseS5naXRodWIuY29tPg0KRGF0ZTogVGh1cnNkYXksIFNlcHRlbWJlciAxNiwgMjAyMSBh dCAzOjUxIFBNDQpUbzogaGVkZ2Vkb2MvaGVkZ2Vkb2MgPGhlZGdlZG9jQG5vcmVwbHkuZ2l0aHVi LmNvbT4NCkNjOiBSaWNoIFNhbHogPHJzYWx6QGFrYW1haS5jb20+LCBBdXRob3IgPGF1dGhvckBu b3JlcGx5LmdpdGh1Yi5jb20+DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2hlZGdlZG9jL2hlZGdlZG9jXSBBZGQg Y29tcHVsc29yeSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBwb3B1cCAoIzE2MzcpDQoNCg0KU29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2Ug dGhhdCBpcyBwbGFubmVkIGZvciBIZWRnZURvYyAyLiBCdXQgdW50aWwgbm93IGl0J3MgbW9yZSBv ZiBhIE1PVEQgYmFubmVyIHRoYW4gYSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB0aGF0IHlvdSBuZWVkIHRvIGFjY2Vw dC4NCg0KSSBndWVzcyBhIHVzZSBjYXNlIGNvdWxkIGJlIHRvIHNob3cgInRlcm1zIG9mIHNlcnZp Y2UiIG9yIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGxpa2UgImJlIGF3YXJlIHRoYXQgeW91ciBub3RlcyBjb3VsZCBk aXNhcHBlYXIgYXQgYW55IHRpbWUiPGh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRwczov bWFpbGFyY2hpdmUuaWV0Zi5vcmcvYXJjaC9tc2cvdG9vbHMtZGlzY3Vzcy9zc01faTZ5T0JSMWRW OV9DYmQ1NkdhV3B0WlkvX187ISFHanZUel92ayFFQnpuRnBZVk1MaVowRXVfRXBNajZmazJmbmhG Y3dnbTRQTEozamtZV0FLTTlpNzlaWThqODNTX0dhQlokPi4NClNvdW5kcyByZWFzb25hYmxlLiBJ J2xsIHRyYW5zZmVyIHRoZSBpc3N1ZSB0byB0aGUgbmV3IGZyb250ZW5kIHJlcG9zaXRvcnkgc28g d2UgY2FuIGFkZCB0aGUgZmVhdHVyZSB0byBIRDIuDQoNCuKAlA0KWW91IGFyZSByZWNlaXZpbmcg dGhpcyBiZWNhdXNlIHlvdSBhdXRob3JlZCB0aGUgdGhyZWFkLg0KUmVwbHkgdG8gdGhpcyBlbWFp bCBkaXJlY3RseSwgdmlldyBpdCBvbiBHaXRIdWI8aHR0cHM6Ly91cmxkZWZlbnNlLmNvbS92My9f X2h0dHBzOi9naXRodWIuY29tL2hlZGdlZG9jL2hlZGdlZG9jL2lzc3Vlcy8xNjM3Kmlzc3VlY29t bWVudC05MjExOTg3NjlfXztJdyEhR2p2VHpfdmshRUJ6bkZwWVZNTGlaMEV1X0VwTWo2ZmsyZm5o RmN3Z200UExKM2prWVdBS005aTc5Wlk4ajgxNVJTNWlmJD4sIG9yIHVuc3Vic2NyaWJlPGh0dHBz Oi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRwczovZ2l0aHViLmNvbS9ub3RpZmljYXRpb25zL3Vu c3Vic2NyaWJlLWF1dGgvQUJYNkZGRlpIVUpVT0dZTjI2UlVWSDNVQ0pERFBBTkNORlNNNUVEQlE2 RlFfXzshIUdqdlR6X3ZrIUVCem5GcFlWTUxpWjBFdV9FcE1qNmZrMmZuaEZjd2dtNFBMSjNqa1lX QUtNOWk3OVpZOGo4M0h0ZXZ3VSQ+Lg0KVHJpYWdlIG5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbnMgb24gdGhlIGdvIHdp dGggR2l0SHViIE1vYmlsZSBmb3IgaU9TPGh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRw czovYXBwcy5hcHBsZS5jb20vYXBwL2FwcGxlLXN0b3JlL2lkMTQ3NzM3NjkwNT9jdD1ub3RpZmlj YXRpb24tZW1haWwmbXQ9OCZwdD01MjQ2NzVfXzshIUdqdlR6X3ZrIUVCem5GcFlWTUxpWjBFdV9F cE1qNmZrMmZuaEZjd2dtNFBMSjNqa1lXQUtNOWk3OVpZOGo4d1Mzd3hhUCQ+IG9yIEFuZHJvaWQ8 aHR0cHM6Ly91cmxkZWZlbnNlLmNvbS92My9fX2h0dHBzOi9wbGF5Lmdvb2dsZS5jb20vc3RvcmUv YXBwcy9kZXRhaWxzP2lkPWNvbS5naXRodWIuYW5kcm9pZCZyZWZlcnJlcj11dG1fY2FtcGFpZ24q M0Rub3RpZmljYXRpb24tZW1haWwqMjZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtKjNEZW1haWwqMjZ1dG1fc291cmNlKjNE Z2l0aHViX187SlNVbEpTVSEhR2p2VHpfdmshRUJ6bkZwWVZNTGlaMEV1X0VwTWo2ZmsyZm5oRmN3 Z200UExKM2prWVdBS005aTc5Wlk4ajh3MllHVDQwJD4uDQo= --_000_B03B5355AD754E3B9C0CCDD68223A5ACakamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6dj0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTp2bWwiIHhtbG5zOm89InVy bjpzY2hlbWFzLW1pY3Jvc29mdC1jb206b2ZmaWNlOm9mZmljZSIgeG1sbnM6dz0idXJuOnNjaGVt YXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6d29yZCIgeG1sbnM6bT0iaHR0cDovL3NjaGVtYXMubWlj cm9zb2Z0LmNvbS9vZmZpY2UvMjAwNC8xMi9vbW1sIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcv VFIvUkVDLWh0bWw0MCI+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIg Y29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4NCjxtZXRhIG5hbWU9IkdlbmVyYXRv ciIgY29udGVudD0iTWljcm9zb2Z0IFdvcmQgMTUgKGZpbHRlcmVkIG1lZGl1bSkiPg0KPCEtLVtp ZiAhbXNvXT48c3R5bGU+dlw6KiB7YmVoYXZpb3I6dXJsKCNkZWZhdWx0I1ZNTCk7fQ0Kb1w6KiB7 YmVoYXZpb3I6dXJsKCNkZWZhdWx0I1ZNTCk7fQ0Kd1w6KiB7YmVoYXZpb3I6dXJsKCNkZWZhdWx0 I1ZNTCk7fQ0KLnNoYXBlIHtiZWhhdmlvcjp1cmwoI2RlZmF1bHQjVk1MKTt9DQo8L3N0eWxlPjwh W2VuZGlmXS0tPjxzdHlsZT48IS0tDQovKiBGb250IERlZmluaXRpb25zICovDQpAZm9udC1mYWNl DQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYW1icmlhIE1hdGgiOw0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjIgNCA1IDMgNSA0IDYg MyAyIDQ7fQ0KQGZvbnQtZmFjZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseTpDYWxpYnJpOw0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjIg MTUgNSAyIDIgMiA0IDMgMiA0O30NCi8qIFN0eWxlIERlZmluaXRpb25zICovDQpwLk1zb05vcm1h bCwgbGkuTXNvTm9ybWFsLCBkaXYuTXNvTm9ybWFsDQoJe21hcmdpbjowaW47DQoJZm9udC1zaXpl OjExLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjt9DQphOmxpbmssIHNw YW4uTXNvSHlwZXJsaW5rDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTo5OTsNCgljb2xvcjpibHVlOw0K CXRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlvbjp1bmRlcmxpbmU7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5FbWFpbFN0eWxlMTkNCgl7bXNvLXN0 eWxlLXR5cGU6cGVyc29uYWwtcmVwbHk7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2Vy aWY7DQoJY29sb3I6d2luZG93dGV4dDt9DQouTXNvQ2hwRGVmYXVsdA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlw ZTpleHBvcnQtb25seTsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTAuMHB0O30NCkBwYWdlIFdvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0K CXtzaXplOjguNWluIDExLjBpbjsNCgltYXJnaW46MS4waW4gMS4waW4gMS4waW4gMS4waW47fQ0K ZGl2LldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtwYWdlOldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMTt9DQotLT48L3N0eWxlPjwhLS1b aWYgZ3RlIG1zbyA5XT48eG1sPg0KPG86c2hhcGVkZWZhdWx0cyB2OmV4dD0iZWRpdCIgc3BpZG1h eD0iMTAyNiIgLz4NCjwveG1sPjwhW2VuZGlmXS0tPjwhLS1baWYgZ3RlIG1zbyA5XT48eG1sPg0K PG86c2hhcGVsYXlvdXQgdjpleHQ9ImVkaXQiPg0KPG86aWRtYXAgdjpleHQ9ImVkaXQiIGRhdGE9 IjEiIC8+DQo8L286c2hhcGVsYXlvdXQ+PC94bWw+PCFbZW5kaWZdLS0+DQo8L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9k eSBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyIgbGluaz0iYmx1ZSIgdmxpbms9InB1cnBsZSIgc3R5bGU9IndvcmQtd3Jh cDpicmVhay13b3JkIj4NCjxkaXYgY2xhc3M9IldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMSI+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNv Tm9ybWFsIj5GWUksIHdoYXQgd2UgbmVlZCB3aWxsIGJlIGluIEhlZGdlRG9jIDIuPG86cD48L286 cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxkaXYg c3R5bGU9ImJvcmRlcjpub25lO2JvcmRlci10b3A6c29saWQgI0I1QzRERiAxLjBwdDtwYWRkaW5n OjMuMHB0IDBpbiAwaW4gMGluIj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxl PSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0O2NvbG9yOmJsYWNrIj5Gcm9tOiA8L3NwYW4+PC9iPjxzcGFuIHN0 eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0O2NvbG9yOmJsYWNrIj5UaWxtYW4gVmF0dGVyb3RoICZsdDtu b3RpZmljYXRpb25zQGdpdGh1Yi5jb20mZ3Q7PGJyPg0KPGI+UmVwbHktVG86IDwvYj5oZWRnZWRv Yy9oZWRnZWRvYyAmbHQ7cmVwbHkmIzQzO0FCWDZGRkU2T0lPUUhaNExaNFFLQTJON0o2QVRQRVZC TkhIRFc0WFBQVUByZXBseS5naXRodWIuY29tJmd0Ozxicj4NCjxiPkRhdGU6IDwvYj5UaHVyc2Rh eSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDE2LCAyMDIxIGF0IDM6NTEgUE08YnI+DQo8Yj5UbzogPC9iPmhlZGdlZG9j L2hlZGdlZG9jICZsdDtoZWRnZWRvY0Bub3JlcGx5LmdpdGh1Yi5jb20mZ3Q7PGJyPg0KPGI+Q2M6 IDwvYj5SaWNoIFNhbHogJmx0O3JzYWx6QGFrYW1haS5jb20mZ3Q7LCBBdXRob3IgJmx0O2F1dGhv ckBub3JlcGx5LmdpdGh1Yi5jb20mZ3Q7PGJyPg0KPGI+U3ViamVjdDogPC9iPlJlOiBbaGVkZ2Vk b2MvaGVkZ2Vkb2NdIEFkZCBjb21wdWxzb3J5IGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHBvcHVwICgjMTYzNyk8bzpw PjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48 bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPHA+U29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgdGhhdCBpcyBw bGFubmVkIGZvciBIZWRnZURvYyAyLiBCdXQgdW50aWwgbm93IGl0J3MgbW9yZSBvZiBhIE1PVEQg YmFubmVyIHRoYW4gYSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB0aGF0IHlvdSBuZWVkIHRvIGFjY2VwdC48bzpwPjwv bzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwPkkgZ3Vlc3MgYSB1c2UgY2FzZSBjb3VsZCBiZSB0byBzaG93ICZxdW90O3Rl cm1zIG9mIHNlcnZpY2UmcXVvdDsgb3IgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gbGlrZSA8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczov L3VybGRlZmVuc2UuY29tL3YzL19faHR0cHM6L21haWxhcmNoaXZlLmlldGYub3JnL2FyY2gvbXNn L3Rvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3Mvc3NNX2k2eU9CUjFkVjlfQ2JkNTZHYVdwdFpZL19fOyEhR2p2VHpfdmsh RUJ6bkZwWVZNTGlaMEV1X0VwTWo2ZmsyZm5oRmN3Z200UExKM2prWVdBS005aTc5Wlk4ajgzU19H YUJaJCI+DQomcXVvdDtiZSBhd2FyZSB0aGF0IHlvdXIgbm90ZXMgY291bGQgZGlzYXBwZWFyIGF0 IGFueSB0aW1lJnF1b3Q7PC9hPi48YnI+DQpTb3VuZHMgcmVhc29uYWJsZS4gSSdsbCB0cmFuc2Zl ciB0aGUgaXNzdWUgdG8gdGhlIG5ldyBmcm9udGVuZCByZXBvc2l0b3J5IHNvIHdlIGNhbiBhZGQg dGhlIGZlYXR1cmUgdG8gSEQyLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgc3R5bGU9Ii13ZWJraXQtdGV4 dC1zaXplLWFkanVzdDpub25lIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdDtjb2xvcjoj NjY2NjY2Ij7igJQ8YnI+DQpZb3UgYXJlIHJlY2VpdmluZyB0aGlzIGJlY2F1c2UgeW91IGF1dGhv cmVkIHRoZSB0aHJlYWQuPGJyPg0KUmVwbHkgdG8gdGhpcyBlbWFpbCBkaXJlY3RseSwgPGEgaHJl Zj0iaHR0cHM6Ly91cmxkZWZlbnNlLmNvbS92My9fX2h0dHBzOi9naXRodWIuY29tL2hlZGdlZG9j L2hlZGdlZG9jL2lzc3Vlcy8xNjM3Kmlzc3VlY29tbWVudC05MjExOTg3NjlfXztJdyEhR2p2VHpf dmshRUJ6bkZwWVZNTGlaMEV1X0VwTWo2ZmsyZm5oRmN3Z200UExKM2prWVdBS005aTc5Wlk4ajgx NVJTNWlmJCI+DQp2aWV3IGl0IG9uIEdpdEh1YjwvYT4sIG9yIDxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHBzOi8vdXJs ZGVmZW5zZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRwczovZ2l0aHViLmNvbS9ub3RpZmljYXRpb25zL3Vuc3Vic2Ny aWJlLWF1dGgvQUJYNkZGRlpIVUpVT0dZTjI2UlVWSDNVQ0pERFBBTkNORlNNNUVEQlE2RlFfXzsh IUdqdlR6X3ZrIUVCem5GcFlWTUxpWjBFdV9FcE1qNmZrMmZuaEZjd2dtNFBMSjNqa1lXQUtNOWk3 OVpZOGo4M0h0ZXZ3VSQiPg0KdW5zdWJzY3JpYmU8L2E+Ljxicj4NClRyaWFnZSBub3RpZmljYXRp b25zIG9uIHRoZSBnbyB3aXRoIEdpdEh1YiBNb2JpbGUgZm9yIDxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHBzOi8vdXJs ZGVmZW5zZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRwczovYXBwcy5hcHBsZS5jb20vYXBwL2FwcGxlLXN0b3JlL2lk MTQ3NzM3NjkwNT9jdD1ub3RpZmljYXRpb24tZW1haWwmYW1wO210PTgmYW1wO3B0PTUyNDY3NV9f OyEhR2p2VHpfdmshRUJ6bkZwWVZNTGlaMEV1X0VwTWo2ZmsyZm5oRmN3Z200UExKM2prWVdBS005 aTc5Wlk4ajh3UzN3eGFQJCI+DQppT1M8L2E+IG9yIDxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5z ZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRwczovcGxheS5nb29nbGUuY29tL3N0b3JlL2FwcHMvZGV0YWlscz9pZD1j b20uZ2l0aHViLmFuZHJvaWQmYW1wO3JlZmVycmVyPXV0bV9jYW1wYWlnbiozRG5vdGlmaWNhdGlv bi1lbWFpbCoyNnV0bV9tZWRpdW0qM0RlbWFpbCoyNnV0bV9zb3VyY2UqM0RnaXRodWJfXztKU1Vs SlNVISFHanZUel92ayFFQnpuRnBZVk1MaVowRXVfRXBNajZmazJmbmhGY3dnbTRQTEozamtZV0FL TTlpNzlaWThqOHcyWUdUNDAkIj4NCkFuZHJvaWQ8L2E+LiA8aW1nIGJvcmRlcj0iMCIgd2lkdGg9 IjEiIGhlaWdodD0iMSIgc3R5bGU9IndpZHRoOi4wMTA0aW47aGVpZ2h0Oi4wMTA0aW4iIGlkPSJf eDAwMDBfaTEwMjUiIHNyYz0iaHR0cHM6Ly9naXRodWIuY29tL25vdGlmaWNhdGlvbnMvYmVhY29u L0FCWDZGRkZFTDNOR1FHTEUzSFRHVUYzVUNKRERQQTVDTkZTTTVFREJRNkYyWVkzUE5WV1dLM1RV TDUySFM0REZWUkVYRzQzVk1WQlc2M0xOTVZYSEpLVERONVdXMlpMT09SUFdTWkdPRzNVR0JNSS5n aWYiPjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_B03B5355AD754E3B9C0CCDD68223A5ACakamaicom_-- From nobody Thu Sep 16 13:38:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F523A11ED; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:38:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Xbvb94F3ay9; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 118983A11E4; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18GJs0Qa013376; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:38:34 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=wvthg+t928TMGesAgeQiCoZbzWkbkqqhCYDMcjy4EPw=; b=KfJZn8L0E7zRjZWriHjsiwNn7gVqOR5tARwDzRycNDPG8rwh3TnklnuE3zoopWW6ON8m Ra0LTSM+CiviOb82uh9jNo5YEVDYiCOJLbdkdEjLkWbmE5f8oWIvSIkOmPyw7qFMebtr EB37GKU/uc/NTn+m4wIE8f8DeyDuKXB5QekAZHh2vCzqwzE3MUXOOmQXvIKMZ4+NKQRG JYab92rENapFXEftCdR74sxM/i7bUF0sUvCR+l75O0/fysdxjCsFER/vfvHiCLWAU8Oc Sa6L80OuIKkrzgaaHLcg+adpUvPz5s+p7chGjPhPoXZWwDISkLQSZUqgpW1CWAzoKw4b MQ== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint1 (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [184.51.33.18] (may be forged)) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 3b48mq5m2q-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:38:33 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18GKYZ1H006687; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:38:33 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3b3866tudr-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:38:33 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:38:32 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:38:32 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: "Salz, Rich" , tools-discuss Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] FW: [hedgedoc/hedgedoc] Add compulsory information popup (#1637) Thread-Index: AQHXqzrQKvkkwdFTPkqwFlWshZGXvw== Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:38:32 +0000 Message-ID: <8DCE39C8-09AB-4B24-B8B1-CA31C9202DE2@akamai.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.53.21090501 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8DCE39C809AB4B24B8B1CA31C9202DE2akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-16_06:2021-09-16, 2021-09-16 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109160120 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: dnDz3N8_7ynpGEyatRy8LEmvKLBcQXkp X-Proofpoint-GUID: dnDz3N8_7ynpGEyatRy8LEmvKLBcQXkp X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-16_06,2021-09-16_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109160120 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.18) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] FW: [hedgedoc/hedgedoc] Add compulsory information popup (#1637) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:38:41 -0000 --_000_8DCE39C809AB4B24B8B1CA31C9202DE2akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 WW91IHNob3VsZCBjaGVjayBvdXQgdGhlIGxpbmsgOikNCg0KRnJvbTogIlNhbHosIFJpY2giIDxy c2Fsej00MGFrYW1haS5jb21AZG1hcmMuaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQpEYXRlOiBUaHVyc2RheSwgU2VwdGVt YmVyIDE2LCAyMDIxIGF0IDQ6MzcgUE0NClRvOiB0b29scy1kaXNjdXNzIDx0b29scy1kaXNjdXNz QGlldGYub3JnPg0KU3ViamVjdDogW1Rvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3NdIEZXOiBbaGVkZ2Vkb2MvaGVkZ2Vk b2NdIEFkZCBjb21wdWxzb3J5IGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHBvcHVwICgjMTYzNykNCg0KRllJLCB3aGF0 IHdlIG5lZWQgd2lsbCBiZSBpbiBIZWRnZURvYyAyLg0KDQpGcm9tOiBUaWxtYW4gVmF0dGVyb3Ro IDxub3RpZmljYXRpb25zQGdpdGh1Yi5jb20+DQpSZXBseS1UbzogaGVkZ2Vkb2MvaGVkZ2Vkb2Mg PHJlcGx5K0FCWDZGRkU2T0lPUUhaNExaNFFLQTJON0o2QVRQRVZCTkhIRFc0WFBQVUByZXBseS5n aXRodWIuY29tPg0KRGF0ZTogVGh1cnNkYXksIFNlcHRlbWJlciAxNiwgMjAyMSBhdCAzOjUxIFBN DQpUbzogaGVkZ2Vkb2MvaGVkZ2Vkb2MgPGhlZGdlZG9jQG5vcmVwbHkuZ2l0aHViLmNvbT4NCkNj OiBSaWNoIFNhbHogPHJzYWx6QGFrYW1haS5jb20+LCBBdXRob3IgPGF1dGhvckBub3JlcGx5Lmdp dGh1Yi5jb20+DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2hlZGdlZG9jL2hlZGdlZG9jXSBBZGQgY29tcHVsc29y eSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBwb3B1cCAoIzE2MzcpDQoNCg0KU29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgdGhhdCBpcyBw bGFubmVkIGZvciBIZWRnZURvYyAyLiBCdXQgdW50aWwgbm93IGl0J3MgbW9yZSBvZiBhIE1PVEQg YmFubmVyIHRoYW4gYSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB0aGF0IHlvdSBuZWVkIHRvIGFjY2VwdC4NCg0KSSBn dWVzcyBhIHVzZSBjYXNlIGNvdWxkIGJlIHRvIHNob3cgInRlcm1zIG9mIHNlcnZpY2UiIG9yIGlu Zm9ybWF0aW9uIGxpa2UgImJlIGF3YXJlIHRoYXQgeW91ciBub3RlcyBjb3VsZCBkaXNhcHBlYXIg YXQgYW55IHRpbWUiPGh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRwczovbWFpbGFyY2hp dmUuaWV0Zi5vcmcvYXJjaC9tc2cvdG9vbHMtZGlzY3Vzcy9zc01faTZ5T0JSMWRWOV9DYmQ1Nkdh V3B0WlkvX187ISFHanZUel92ayFFQnpuRnBZVk1MaVowRXVfRXBNajZmazJmbmhGY3dnbTRQTEoz amtZV0FLTTlpNzlaWThqODNTX0dhQlokPi4NClNvdW5kcyByZWFzb25hYmxlLiBJJ2xsIHRyYW5z ZmVyIHRoZSBpc3N1ZSB0byB0aGUgbmV3IGZyb250ZW5kIHJlcG9zaXRvcnkgc28gd2UgY2FuIGFk ZCB0aGUgZmVhdHVyZSB0byBIRDIuDQoNCuKAlA0KWW91IGFyZSByZWNlaXZpbmcgdGhpcyBiZWNh dXNlIHlvdSBhdXRob3JlZCB0aGUgdGhyZWFkLg0KUmVwbHkgdG8gdGhpcyBlbWFpbCBkaXJlY3Rs eSwgdmlldyBpdCBvbiBHaXRIdWI8aHR0cHM6Ly91cmxkZWZlbnNlLmNvbS92My9fX2h0dHBzOi9n aXRodWIuY29tL2hlZGdlZG9jL2hlZGdlZG9jL2lzc3Vlcy8xNjM3Kmlzc3VlY29tbWVudC05MjEx OTg3NjlfXztJdyEhR2p2VHpfdmshRUJ6bkZwWVZNTGlaMEV1X0VwTWo2ZmsyZm5oRmN3Z200UExK M2prWVdBS005aTc5Wlk4ajgxNVJTNWlmJD4sIG9yIHVuc3Vic2NyaWJlPGh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVm ZW5zZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRwczovZ2l0aHViLmNvbS9ub3RpZmljYXRpb25zL3Vuc3Vic2NyaWJl LWF1dGgvQUJYNkZGRlpIVUpVT0dZTjI2UlVWSDNVQ0pERFBBTkNORlNNNUVEQlE2RlFfXzshIUdq dlR6X3ZrIUVCem5GcFlWTUxpWjBFdV9FcE1qNmZrMmZuaEZjd2dtNFBMSjNqa1lXQUtNOWk3OVpZ OGo4M0h0ZXZ3VSQ+Lg0KVHJpYWdlIG5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbnMgb24gdGhlIGdvIHdpdGggR2l0SHVi IE1vYmlsZSBmb3IgaU9TPGh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRwczovYXBwcy5h cHBsZS5jb20vYXBwL2FwcGxlLXN0b3JlL2lkMTQ3NzM3NjkwNT9jdD1ub3RpZmljYXRpb24tZW1h aWwmbXQ9OCZwdD01MjQ2NzVfXzshIUdqdlR6X3ZrIUVCem5GcFlWTUxpWjBFdV9FcE1qNmZrMmZu aEZjd2dtNFBMSjNqa1lXQUtNOWk3OVpZOGo4d1Mzd3hhUCQ+IG9yIEFuZHJvaWQ8aHR0cHM6Ly91 cmxkZWZlbnNlLmNvbS92My9fX2h0dHBzOi9wbGF5Lmdvb2dsZS5jb20vc3RvcmUvYXBwcy9kZXRh aWxzP2lkPWNvbS5naXRodWIuYW5kcm9pZCZyZWZlcnJlcj11dG1fY2FtcGFpZ24qM0Rub3RpZmlj YXRpb24tZW1haWwqMjZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtKjNEZW1haWwqMjZ1dG1fc291cmNlKjNEZ2l0aHViX187 SlNVbEpTVSEhR2p2VHpfdmshRUJ6bkZwWVZNTGlaMEV1X0VwTWo2ZmsyZm5oRmN3Z200UExKM2pr WVdBS005aTc5Wlk4ajh3MllHVDQwJD4uDQo= --_000_8DCE39C809AB4B24B8B1CA31C9202DE2akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6dj0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTp2bWwiIHhtbG5zOm89InVy bjpzY2hlbWFzLW1pY3Jvc29mdC1jb206b2ZmaWNlOm9mZmljZSIgeG1sbnM6dz0idXJuOnNjaGVt YXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6d29yZCIgeG1sbnM6bT0iaHR0cDovL3NjaGVtYXMubWlj cm9zb2Z0LmNvbS9vZmZpY2UvMjAwNC8xMi9vbW1sIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcv VFIvUkVDLWh0bWw0MCI+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIg Y29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4NCjxtZXRhIG5hbWU9IkdlbmVyYXRv ciIgY29udGVudD0iTWljcm9zb2Z0IFdvcmQgMTUgKGZpbHRlcmVkIG1lZGl1bSkiPg0KPCEtLVtp ZiAhbXNvXT48c3R5bGU+dlw6KiB7YmVoYXZpb3I6dXJsKCNkZWZhdWx0I1ZNTCk7fQ0Kb1w6KiB7 YmVoYXZpb3I6dXJsKCNkZWZhdWx0I1ZNTCk7fQ0Kd1w6KiB7YmVoYXZpb3I6dXJsKCNkZWZhdWx0 I1ZNTCk7fQ0KLnNoYXBlIHtiZWhhdmlvcjp1cmwoI2RlZmF1bHQjVk1MKTt9DQo8L3N0eWxlPjwh W2VuZGlmXS0tPjxzdHlsZT48IS0tDQovKiBGb250IERlZmluaXRpb25zICovDQpAZm9udC1mYWNl DQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYW1icmlhIE1hdGgiOw0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjIgNCA1IDMgNSA0IDYg MyAyIDQ7fQ0KQGZvbnQtZmFjZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseTpDYWxpYnJpOw0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjIg MTUgNSAyIDIgMiA0IDMgMiA0O30NCi8qIFN0eWxlIERlZmluaXRpb25zICovDQpwLk1zb05vcm1h bCwgbGkuTXNvTm9ybWFsLCBkaXYuTXNvTm9ybWFsDQoJe21hcmdpbjowaW47DQoJZm9udC1zaXpl OjExLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjt9DQphOmxpbmssIHNw YW4uTXNvSHlwZXJsaW5rDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTo5OTsNCgljb2xvcjpibHVlOw0K CXRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlvbjp1bmRlcmxpbmU7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5FbWFpbFN0eWxlMjANCgl7bXNvLXN0 eWxlLXR5cGU6cGVyc29uYWwtcmVwbHk7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2Vy aWY7DQoJY29sb3I6d2luZG93dGV4dDt9DQouTXNvQ2hwRGVmYXVsdA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlw ZTpleHBvcnQtb25seTsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTAuMHB0O30NCkBwYWdlIFdvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0K CXtzaXplOjguNWluIDExLjBpbjsNCgltYXJnaW46MS4waW4gMS4waW4gMS4waW4gMS4waW47fQ0K ZGl2LldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtwYWdlOldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMTt9DQotLT48L3N0eWxlPjwhLS1b aWYgZ3RlIG1zbyA5XT48eG1sPg0KPG86c2hhcGVkZWZhdWx0cyB2OmV4dD0iZWRpdCIgc3BpZG1h eD0iMTAyNiIgLz4NCjwveG1sPjwhW2VuZGlmXS0tPjwhLS1baWYgZ3RlIG1zbyA5XT48eG1sPg0K PG86c2hhcGVsYXlvdXQgdjpleHQ9ImVkaXQiPg0KPG86aWRtYXAgdjpleHQ9ImVkaXQiIGRhdGE9 IjEiIC8+DQo8L286c2hhcGVsYXlvdXQ+PC94bWw+PCFbZW5kaWZdLS0+DQo8L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9k eSBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyIgbGluaz0iYmx1ZSIgdmxpbms9InB1cnBsZSIgc3R5bGU9IndvcmQtd3Jh cDpicmVhay13b3JkIj4NCjxkaXYgY2xhc3M9IldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMSI+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNv Tm9ybWFsIj5Zb3Ugc2hvdWxkIGNoZWNrIG91dCB0aGUgbGluayA6KTxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0K PHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8ZGl2IHN0eWxlPSJi b3JkZXI6bm9uZTtib3JkZXItdG9wOnNvbGlkICNCNUM0REYgMS4wcHQ7cGFkZGluZzozLjBwdCAw aW4gMGluIDBpbiI+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48Yj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1z aXplOjEyLjBwdDtjb2xvcjpibGFjayI+RnJvbTogPC9zcGFuPjwvYj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9u dC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdDtjb2xvcjpibGFjayI+JnF1b3Q7U2FseiwgUmljaCZxdW90OyAmbHQ7cnNh bHo9NDBha2FtYWkuY29tQGRtYXJjLmlldGYub3JnJmd0Ozxicj4NCjxiPkRhdGU6IDwvYj5UaHVy c2RheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDE2LCAyMDIxIGF0IDQ6MzcgUE08YnI+DQo8Yj5UbzogPC9iPnRvb2xz LWRpc2N1c3MgJmx0O3Rvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3NAaWV0Zi5vcmcmZ3Q7PGJyPg0KPGI+U3ViamVjdDog PC9iPltUb29scy1kaXNjdXNzXSBGVzogW2hlZGdlZG9jL2hlZGdlZG9jXSBBZGQgY29tcHVsc29y eSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBwb3B1cCAoIzE2MzcpPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+ DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rp dj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPkZZSSwgd2hhdCB3ZSBuZWVkIHdpbGwgYmUgaW4gSGVk Z2VEb2MgMi48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7 PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPGRpdiBzdHlsZT0iYm9yZGVyOm5vbmU7Ym9yZGVyLXRvcDpzb2xpZCAjQjVD NERGIDEuMHB0O3BhZGRpbmc6My4wcHQgMGluIDBpbiAwaW4iPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1h bCI+PGI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQ7Y29sb3I6YmxhY2siPkZyb206IDwv c3Bhbj48L2I+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQ7Y29sb3I6YmxhY2siPlRpbG1h biBWYXR0ZXJvdGggJmx0O25vdGlmaWNhdGlvbnNAZ2l0aHViLmNvbSZndDs8YnI+DQo8Yj5SZXBs eS1UbzogPC9iPmhlZGdlZG9jL2hlZGdlZG9jICZsdDtyZXBseSYjNDM7QUJYNkZGRTZPSU9RSFo0 TFo0UUtBMk43SjZBVFBFVkJOSEhEVzRYUFBVQHJlcGx5LmdpdGh1Yi5jb20mZ3Q7PGJyPg0KPGI+ RGF0ZTogPC9iPlRodXJzZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMTYsIDIwMjEgYXQgMzo1MSBQTTxicj4NCjxi PlRvOiA8L2I+aGVkZ2Vkb2MvaGVkZ2Vkb2MgJmx0O2hlZGdlZG9jQG5vcmVwbHkuZ2l0aHViLmNv bSZndDs8YnI+DQo8Yj5DYzogPC9iPlJpY2ggU2FseiAmbHQ7cnNhbHpAYWthbWFpLmNvbSZndDss IEF1dGhvciAmbHQ7YXV0aG9yQG5vcmVwbHkuZ2l0aHViLmNvbSZndDs8YnI+DQo8Yj5TdWJqZWN0 OiA8L2I+UmU6IFtoZWRnZWRvYy9oZWRnZWRvY10gQWRkIGNvbXB1bHNvcnkgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24g cG9wdXAgKCMxNjM3KTxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNs YXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8cD5Tb21ldGhp bmcgbGlrZSB0aGF0IGlzIHBsYW5uZWQgZm9yIEhlZGdlRG9jIDIuIEJ1dCB1bnRpbCBub3cgaXQn cyBtb3JlIG9mIGEgTU9URCBiYW5uZXIgdGhhbiBhIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHRoYXQgeW91IG5lZWQg dG8gYWNjZXB0LjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHA+SSBndWVzcyBhIHVzZSBjYXNlIGNvdWxkIGJl IHRvIHNob3cgJnF1b3Q7dGVybXMgb2Ygc2VydmljZSZxdW90OyBvciBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBsaWtl IDxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRwczovbWFpbGFyY2hpdmUu aWV0Zi5vcmcvYXJjaC9tc2cvdG9vbHMtZGlzY3Vzcy9zc01faTZ5T0JSMWRWOV9DYmQ1NkdhV3B0 WlkvX187ISFHanZUel92ayFFQnpuRnBZVk1MaVowRXVfRXBNajZmazJmbmhGY3dnbTRQTEozamtZ V0FLTTlpNzlaWThqODNTX0dhQlokIj4NCiZxdW90O2JlIGF3YXJlIHRoYXQgeW91ciBub3RlcyBj b3VsZCBkaXNhcHBlYXIgYXQgYW55IHRpbWUmcXVvdDs8L2E+Ljxicj4NClNvdW5kcyByZWFzb25h YmxlLiBJJ2xsIHRyYW5zZmVyIHRoZSBpc3N1ZSB0byB0aGUgbmV3IGZyb250ZW5kIHJlcG9zaXRv cnkgc28gd2UgY2FuIGFkZCB0aGUgZmVhdHVyZSB0byBIRDIuPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBz dHlsZT0iLXdlYmtpdC10ZXh0LXNpemUtYWRqdXN0Om5vbmUiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNp emU6MTIuMHB0O2NvbG9yOiM2NjY2NjYiPuKAlDxicj4NCllvdSBhcmUgcmVjZWl2aW5nIHRoaXMg YmVjYXVzZSB5b3UgYXV0aG9yZWQgdGhlIHRocmVhZC48YnI+DQpSZXBseSB0byB0aGlzIGVtYWls IGRpcmVjdGx5LCA8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UuY29tL3YzL19faHR0cHM6L2dp dGh1Yi5jb20vaGVkZ2Vkb2MvaGVkZ2Vkb2MvaXNzdWVzLzE2MzcqaXNzdWVjb21tZW50LTkyMTE5 ODc2OV9fO0l3ISFHanZUel92ayFFQnpuRnBZVk1MaVowRXVfRXBNajZmazJmbmhGY3dnbTRQTEoz amtZV0FLTTlpNzlaWThqODE1UlM1aWYkIj4NCnZpZXcgaXQgb24gR2l0SHViPC9hPiwgb3IgPGEg aHJlZj0iaHR0cHM6Ly91cmxkZWZlbnNlLmNvbS92My9fX2h0dHBzOi9naXRodWIuY29tL25vdGlm aWNhdGlvbnMvdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUtYXV0aC9BQlg2RkZGWkhVSlVPR1lOMjZSVVZIM1VDSkREUEFO Q05GU001RURCUTZGUV9fOyEhR2p2VHpfdmshRUJ6bkZwWVZNTGlaMEV1X0VwTWo2ZmsyZm5oRmN3 Z200UExKM2prWVdBS005aTc5Wlk4ajgzSHRldndVJCI+DQp1bnN1YnNjcmliZTwvYT4uPGJyPg0K VHJpYWdlIG5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbnMgb24gdGhlIGdvIHdpdGggR2l0SHViIE1vYmlsZSBmb3IgPGEg aHJlZj0iaHR0cHM6Ly91cmxkZWZlbnNlLmNvbS92My9fX2h0dHBzOi9hcHBzLmFwcGxlLmNvbS9h cHAvYXBwbGUtc3RvcmUvaWQxNDc3Mzc2OTA1P2N0PW5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbi1lbWFpbCZhbXA7bXQ9 OCZhbXA7cHQ9NTI0Njc1X187ISFHanZUel92ayFFQnpuRnBZVk1MaVowRXVfRXBNajZmazJmbmhG Y3dnbTRQTEozamtZV0FLTTlpNzlaWThqOHdTM3d4YVAkIj4NCmlPUzwvYT4gb3IgPGEgaHJlZj0i aHR0cHM6Ly91cmxkZWZlbnNlLmNvbS92My9fX2h0dHBzOi9wbGF5Lmdvb2dsZS5jb20vc3RvcmUv YXBwcy9kZXRhaWxzP2lkPWNvbS5naXRodWIuYW5kcm9pZCZhbXA7cmVmZXJyZXI9dXRtX2NhbXBh aWduKjNEbm90aWZpY2F0aW9uLWVtYWlsKjI2dXRtX21lZGl1bSozRGVtYWlsKjI2dXRtX3NvdXJj ZSozRGdpdGh1Yl9fO0pTVWxKU1UhIUdqdlR6X3ZrIUVCem5GcFlWTUxpWjBFdV9FcE1qNmZrMmZu aEZjd2dtNFBMSjNqa1lXQUtNOWk3OVpZOGo4dzJZR1Q0MCQiPg0KQW5kcm9pZDwvYT4uIDxpbWcg Ym9yZGVyPSIwIiB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiBzdHlsZT0id2lkdGg6LjAxMDRpbjtoZWln aHQ6LjAxMDRpbiIgaWQ9Il94MDAwMF9pMTAyNSIgc3JjPSJodHRwczovL2dpdGh1Yi5jb20vbm90 aWZpY2F0aW9ucy9iZWFjb24vQUJYNkZGRkVMM05HUUdMRTNIVEdVRjNVQ0pERFBBNUNORlNNNUVE QlE2RjJZWTNQTlZXV0szVFVMNTJIUzRERlZSRVhHNDNWTVZCVzYzTE5NVlhISktURE41V1cyWkxP T1JQV1NaR09HM1VHQk1JLmdpZiI+PG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Jv ZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_8DCE39C809AB4B24B8B1CA31C9202DE2akamaicom_-- From nobody Thu Sep 16 14:09:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB313A0975; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:09:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d8AR90wYW-Ol; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x633.google.com (mail-pl1-x633.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::633]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFE1A3A0971; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x633.google.com with SMTP id v2so4722950plp.8; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:09:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kT8DpYsvh9kFCSjmcyndersnnasrttXbULRC0BNU8kQ=; b=WKE8GnGObBfEuKTHPCIGuxLS+c6HV08dr7Np+Sv3ZLZ4kqi2R4o8AbZCP+ruWRKt/s cdcrAulKSGxTFuTzjMzckVrJNMhk6avDmaGUGuwvAZs+YepZbaI7dZOymxUZ5B590SPW Jnju/oktQWwkSfy3kkT+dk3Bs92liNd9agif78hBEhnEKozpPzWc0yyzDoXUQ/uCcv1B f0HIaRib5lZ+6CVUSusfRJqiIyAGXWIAFKSxpag9JwrngkzXVylyNJEUcDMB3BoIJ5QJ jUgL/ZiZ3qiYw5u4UKLFLL0nBFKjPTWHv05AL06ksQPg5/WYpD4/JBrC4Qcg86TQR5t3 y+NQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kT8DpYsvh9kFCSjmcyndersnnasrttXbULRC0BNU8kQ=; b=W/uTREDkPcOw/8Km8ZhzgL7xqEkLvGoznm30ZdSxLY6/ooMyO8n1+G0/JvBAnIUAxY 7kTvaXLadBOx81pBmBSSma0m4dKau4eVvgwg9yfQT39cNIXS+7U5MWwbxIsFRNGahSy7 m4eYWni/0YI/irzMJ+K14B8o+Z8AhaZJk5OMzr0P3T6Prgh5CFH2OQqN4RUqWLhhdO+R vVnNmbeMeoHpFCdhRJJLwu0Zj6e5HF/vUglxg4wr1FqVKpYS9tQoV3PFQniD5vg3VJd9 fzZF2aYe3LwcD2Ra3ENmpfOBPhkI9wEmzZGeBmTk7AAsFFgB4yUm4QlI5bpW/8XG5W3i T37w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532J8Yzk6qbj2ddimVaMfyY8JTMJJ1TvagQjPhay7YatKswLjVhM C/y173G6CTsX/pdc04cObPTadct2UcPHtQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxrydoUBeaclSwfZgyAIxmdPDyuD8kXKepbP+QmTfiisbX8sHjVv2tOWlfZilI6W2OtPUEdkw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e0c1:b0:13b:76f5:c3b4 with SMTP id e1-20020a170902e0c100b0013b76f5c3b4mr6318307pla.85.1631826570958; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b13sm8668536pjk.35.2021.09.16.14.09.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:09:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <93bdbb89-4aca-267c-6970-11f1c307003d@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:09:26 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1534366.1631820151@dooku> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:09:38 -0000 On 17-Sep-21 07:22, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote= : > >>=20 > >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. >=20 > > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious proposal.=20 I=E2=80=99ll treat > > is as such for the purpose of this message.) >=20 > Well, I'm serious. > I think 30 days might be way too long. >=20 > WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end o= f the > session. It's not hard. > But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within the=20 day, > and there will be some crying. Some WG session minutes will go away. One day is too short; back in the good old days, when most of us suffered= jet lag after each meeting, a week to capture the minutes and copy-edit them was hardly enough. But I do agree, this is a major duty of WG chairs= or secretaries, and needs to be done promptly.=20 I wouldn't call it notes.ietf.org. I'd call it temp.ietf.org. Or at least= , put everything in notes.ietf.org/temp/ and move it to notes.ietf.org/recy= cle/ after 30 days and then to /dev/null after another 30 days. Something like= that, anyway, depending on how it would integrate with HedgeDoc. Brian=20 >=20 > > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or G= oogle > > docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a common > > service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it and=20 we > > can integrate it into other tools. >=20 > Agreed. >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Sep 16 14:15:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1962E3A0A0C; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:15:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fraunhofer.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b19jg4_Jfl2Q; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-edgeKA24.fraunhofer.de (mail-edgeka24.fraunhofer.de [153.96.1.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EF093A0A0A; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:15:00 -0700 (PDT) IronPort-SDR: BU8Oa21tYhH/6pfrLtsm4wH9nFHUvjlguzxUeKEuerXJq6ROj9JQ4zzi5E8pri5T2TEZoG/2tc rEG3mU2jBi4zifQM/AbK38GEZd5iVFyUjIV43IafysZTkG8SIeJ89eWeYBIDxk6xbI/JBUAagG GGp5P+LuxGa2Z/6cWzZrX9LxC1wBaFGuSxSmFEPjUsHAvjfkLXzf0WlL/oayXreDNSXRCphSkl MgZflJL3S4hbt96zrxl21u+0ae3VjjBOYGyZ0dMo5EDoAk1hLdrrA3xiLVDq63gFwo7UMVEZV2 s2Y= IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3AgOH8yxEJdwZqaEqYK4uaEp1GfsIY04WdBeZdw?= =?us-ascii?q?psql7wIdb6srNzuP03asPNqilKBHYDW8OlNhOeetaf8EXcB7pCMvDFnEtRMW?= =?us-ascii?q?hYJhN9Qk1kmB8iIWkz2MPCsaDY1T4xOUVZ/9CS9Nk5YUM/1e1zVpCi06jgfU?= =?us-ascii?q?hXyPAZ4PKL7AInX2t+2y6a84ZTOZQVPijenJ79/f32L?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2EhAwBys0Nh/xoHYZlaHAEBAQEBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?BARIBAQQEAQFAgVmBU1F+gUKESINJAQGFOYgIA5pcglMDLiYLAQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BCAEtEgIEAQEDA4R3AjWCFAElOBMBAgQBAQESAQEGAQEBAQEGBAICgSCFaA2?= =?us-ascii?q?DU4EIAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBBQINNB4?= =?us-ascii?q?pDDIBAQEDEhEPAQUIAQE4DwsYAgImAgIyJQYBDAYCAQEegk8BglUDLgIDplg?= =?us-ascii?q?BgToCiVAaNXqBMYEBgggBAQYEBIJRgjkYWoFaCQkBgQYqgn+HB4N9JxCBVUS?= =?us-ascii?q?BPAwDgkQwPoJiAoR3gmSHSC5lMEl2C4FJkgYpqzMtB4IDgSuBMQYLiH6UCgY?= =?us-ascii?q?RAyyFLpAvBpEihw+PDaUvAgQCBAUCDgEBBoF4XoEgTSSDOAlIGQ+OIFCDIoJ?= =?us-ascii?q?kgjCFTHI4AgYBCgEBAwmFSYowAQE?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2EhAwBys0Nh/xoHYZlaHAEBAQEBAQcBARIBAQQEAQFAg?= =?us-ascii?q?VmBU1F+gUKESINJAQGFOYgIA5pcglMDLiYLAQEBAQEBAQEBCAEtEgIEAQEDA?= =?us-ascii?q?4R3AjWCFAElOBMBAgQBAQESAQEGAQEBAQEGBAICgSCFaA2DU4EIAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBBQINNB4pDDIBAQEDEhEPA?= =?us-ascii?q?QUIAQE4DwsYAgImAgIyJQYBDAYCAQEegk8BglUDLgIDplgBgToCiVAaNXqBM?= =?us-ascii?q?YEBgggBAQYEBIJRgjkYWoFaCQkBgQYqgn+HB4N9JxCBVUSBPAwDgkQwPoJiA?= =?us-ascii?q?oR3gmSHSC5lMEl2C4FJkgYpqzMtB4IDgSuBMQYLiH6UCgYRAyyFLpAvBpEih?= =?us-ascii?q?w+PDaUvAgQCBAUCDgEBBoF4XoEgTSSDOAlIGQ+OIFCDIoJkgjCFTHI4AgYBC?= =?us-ascii?q?gEBAwmFSYowAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.85,299,1624312800"; d="scan'208";a="35666044" Received: from mail-mtas26.fraunhofer.de ([153.97.7.26]) by mail-edgeKA24.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Sep 2021 23:14:40 +0200 IronPort-SDR: iVZg7OuhzfqcWgb+l4sEAk+Eh03B2VBB4J7IxcFFXkeTZsXeNLYoyaWZ62rrEZCb7oEf/8lfAC BOFeGDCo1y6n2/hUEVJoV1+2M8QhwJAQw= IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3AlevDmRzIy6McggLXCzM9ngc9DxPP8531MxIbr?= =?us-ascii?q?J09hOEGfqei+sHkO0rSrbVogUTSVIrWo/RDl6LNsq/mVGBBhPTJsH0LfJFWE?= =?us-ascii?q?RNQj8IQkl8hDdKLT0rhI62iYykzBs8XUlhj8jmyOlRUH8CrYVrUrzWy4DceF?= =?us-ascii?q?w+5OxByI7HuG5KUgd6+yuay/JPeeUNEiWnVXA=3D=3D?= IronPort-Data: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3A3zSroq2RcA1qbRP/evbD5QVxkn2cJEfYwER7X?= =?us-ascii?q?KvMYLTBsI5bpzFVx2AYWDuAOfeJNGf0ftx3YIu/8hxS7cTUmtYxHVRv3Hw8F?= =?us-ascii?q?HgiRegpqji6wuccB84ZRyH6ZBoPAxw2ZoaSIcYqYGXboxvxYLHtoWMlivOTR?= =?us-ascii?q?6a6BvTNJyZxQgFpUmEthEs7yeI+h4dph/m/Ah+M4I+j/ZeAZQX9gzMkYHgJ7?= =?us-ascii?q?6+jqQ90uKqgsj0vvms4OaJBsmjYmiRHF5kYP6ywcyD1T9AMTO63TurO1p+j+?= =?us-ascii?q?Wbd80t/A9+piO+kIFYLXvjcJwGTjHpRVaW4xBRP/3Rg3qE+PfsaSEFWlzTQw?= =?us-ascii?q?4EvkooQ78ToRF5wbKPWmekbXx1JKA1EPPVLqO3dPHyykc2P1EmYIXHi9PVZC?= =?us-ascii?q?h1kN4Mv/OsqU3pF8uYVKWxWYx2O27C2zba8RrU+j8gvNpO2boYYsHBkwHfUH?= =?us-ascii?q?f0mB57ZSrjM5dhW0S12is0XRaTSYM8QaDxOahXcYkQTawlNV89kxL+l1ivlb?= =?us-ascii?q?jlViFOJvq5rsWLd+wp8jer2O93Pd93WGMhYwhSCqmTd8zirCx0WLofFm2PYq?= =?us-ascii?q?Tf92aqWwn2+BthUCrj+/bhkmlSOwGwUBhAME1e2+KHrhkm7UtNZCkoV5it38?= =?us-ascii?q?flsrhP2FIGlUk3qumOAsz4dR8FUT78w5jaLx/eG+A2eHGUFEmNMZdFOWBXan?= =?us-ascii?q?tAR/gLPz46B6QBH6uXPECrMr+nM9lteBABMRYM8TX9cJec6y4S7yG0Dpkqno?= =?us-ascii?q?udLSMZZvPWscd3D62jiQBwFulkmpZVjO5NXXbzwq2nESpDhFmbZ7+hMN46vx?= =?us-ascii?q?lsRiIWNP+RE5bVHhMusIrp1TnHZ1JQFs82Z5uEKANeAhCeNBusXFayv5/GLP?= =?us-ascii?q?SeajVMH85sJrmn2vS/8O9kPvncgfi+FMe5cEdPtSE/evwAX7p5JP3utab1fe?= =?us-ascii?q?IOtTcowxLXmFdPrW+qSYtcmjp1ZLVLcp3wzOxbLt4zquBJ1zfBlZMnzndyXJ?= =?us-ascii?q?WodDqB8iTa3XOwAyqQDxy0iyyXUX5+T5xWqzbS2ZXOJR/ECKlTmRv8256ONo?= =?us-ascii?q?R/O29dSK8XMzA9QOMX1ayPQ2ZIBLBYNN3dTLZX9sY9We/KNChFvHm0sD/rYx?= =?us-ascii?q?/UqcuRNlb5Un+GO8ze2U1VAxVzjiGfvJgCDa3QlY7TqNauTB1pT0TcEZAvzn?= =?us-ascii?q?il8JN/wsuJBLd0peP8ssuJ5xONyT/4Ldt/GDvknd9gOwBxFBbGVkWCoXE3Da?= =?us-ascii?q?dqyAheY?= IronPort-HdrOrdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3A6HThGKvWUDJH6d9x+wcwvBSV7skC5oMji2?= =?us-ascii?q?hC6mlwRA09TyXGra+TdaUguSMc1gx9ZJhBo7G90dq7MA7hHPlOkPUs1NaZLX?= =?us-ascii?q?PbUQ6TQr2KgrGSugEIdxeOkdK1kJ0QCJSWa+eAfGSS7/yKhjVQeuxIqLLskN?= =?us-ascii?q?HK9JTjJjVWPGVXgslbnnlE422gYy9LrWd9dP8E/danl7J6T23KQwVpUi33PA?= =?us-ascii?q?hJY8Hz4/nw0L72ax8PABAqrCGIkDOT8bb/VzyVxA0XXT9jyaortTGtqX232o?= =?us-ascii?q?yT99WAjjPM3W7a6Jpb3PPn19t4HcSJzuwYMC/lhAqEbJloH5eCoDc2iuey70?= =?us-ascii?q?tCqqiBnz4Qe+BIr1/BdGC8phXgnyHmzTYV8nfnjWSVhHPyyPaJDA4SOo5kv8?= =?us-ascii?q?Z0YxHZ400vsJVXy6RQxV+UsJJREFfpgDn9z8KgbWArqmOE5V4Z1cIDhX1WVo?= =?us-ascii?q?UTLJVLq5YEwU9TGJAcWArn9YEcFvV0Bs203ocWTbqjVQGagoBT+q3oYpxqdS?= =?us-ascii?q?32BnTq+/blnQS+pUoJjHfxn6ck7zA9HPtXceg12wzGWp4Y3Y2mAPVmK56VP9?= =?us-ascii?q?1xNPdfPFa9Ny4kAFjiU2gPK5t3T04li6SHq4ndt9vaMqDh8vMJ6eP8uRVjxD?= =?us-ascii?q?cPR34=3D?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DYBgDTskNh/z6wYZlaHAEBAQEBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?BARIBAQQEAQFACYFQgVNRB0wrWSZDhEeDSQEBhTmFZIIkAzgBmiOCUwNUCwE?= =?us-ascii?q?DAQEBAQEIAQQpEQECBAEBhH0CNYIRAiY4EwECBAEBARIBAQUBAQECAQYEgRE?= =?us-ascii?q?ThWgNhkMBAQEDEhEPAQUIAQEUJA8LGAICJgICMgceBgEMBgIBAR6CTwGCVQM?= =?us-ascii?q?uAgOmeAGBOgKJUBo1eoExgQGCCAEBBgQEglGCORhagVoJCQGBBiqCf4cHg30?= =?us-ascii?q?3gVVEgTwMA4JEMD6CYgKEd4Jkh0guZTBJdguBSZIGKaszLQeCA4ErgTEGC4h?= =?us-ascii?q?+lAoGEQMshS6QLwaRIocPjw2lLwIEAgQFAg4BAQaBeCQ5gSBNJIM4CUgZD44?= =?us-ascii?q?gUIMigmSCMIVMQTE4AgYBCgEBAwmFRwEBijABAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.85,299,1624312800"; d="scan'208";a="153355603" Received: from 153-97-176-62.vm.c.fraunhofer.de (HELO mobile.exch.fraunhofer.de) ([153.97.176.62]) by mail-mtaS26.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Sep 2021 23:14:37 +0200 Received: from XCH-HYBRID-02.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.8.59) by XCH-HYBRID-01.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.8.57) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.858.15; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:14:37 +0200 Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (10.225.8.37) by XCH-HYBRID-02.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.8.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.858.15 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:14:37 +0200 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Vfod9A54yxWj6Mfpi+NE4nSWwkqj1O8TQGjZAfAkU8jb7NSj6948fW0fRzPOgORFHjTaBS+SyMGaOtqEjIogpqitQ766sPnFaz+o5NvcIs6pxsr0unz036vtwYVfq6JgPLziUGFA4wrkiM6iuqIxlx5Xu44+mg41Lbtv/Evsu2dSPwwvW7wbTw17ViT/e1DFzi3O+SiHM5qSS6DwStKlVI4hBKmeTdr4QF7Abt1jv7r0XC3jvfLDhTF0u3u7vnMiCEFVuBSplhf7yTEEgzSIv9TtQ1pAci4oiHc/hu9ycuyqQmNfkplvaikqe8CCh/5/KgLjDMTCdFfiFZkUdTDseA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=B2QxkM6IJzeORrbx1llSBpvThnRxEPBnAqvkchmcH/w=; b=UW4jCVul5lO4SqqsHR1giAu1RROJNl3xd/ewJBrKsFSijK5s+DfgBhbq3hN9CixeP1eYCZde6hEml5A3NnjzbQ4hyfebyd+SX/K/ApcrVfpHi550jLuuNb3paMLtg1bmt0sFLfRlRtu9iRv7GPFy0QPxhkP0cOHDPXRfLDhabpIrRHj4qMYX/Fc3nGO1oRp3judefboBGxwtbmEMsQxUXhRat/EvBtTw7OA2jHAVC4wNdh/plRh1w1lRF9WprkIGCY6e4K1vJM8lmPJg2gP3r43zRqNXkWlGx6juCXjEKJQ07u43/Bx4bqjPqp2qFd+lmDPIwX0ECUQAerMSQ0fgpQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=sit.fraunhofer.de; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=sit.fraunhofer.de; dkim=pass header.d=sit.fraunhofer.de; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fraunhofer.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-fraunhofer-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=B2QxkM6IJzeORrbx1llSBpvThnRxEPBnAqvkchmcH/w=; b=i45IGR/9q9KurUzWvcTjjVxrOEAFcnMzzzkEDM8p2tOOjkg0ri3+r37Fu3odK78nLkagPrNaaFvGHJO5xtfwUkTJgxBQs3I7LEjMoJDHn/tbhfTcPBU/7fq+YBgLlZakRLl/dekDGq45gF6fwMcdmOFdksJ6g4ImdF7Xl0tzdgg= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=sit.fraunhofer.de; Received: from DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:276::9) by DB9P194MB1481.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:294::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4523.16; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:14:36 +0000 Received: from DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::8c2b:841f:ce13:50ac]) by DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::8c2b:841f:ce13:50ac%5]) with mapi id 15.20.4500.018; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:14:36 +0000 To: Brian E Carpenter , Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <93bdbb89-4aca-267c-6970-11f1c307003d@gmail.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <13291778-0f4c-58d8-4d8b-ec6928cdaae8@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:14:34 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 In-Reply-To: <93bdbb89-4aca-267c-6970-11f1c307003d@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: PR0P264CA0161.FRAP264.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:100:1b::29) To DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:276::9) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.77) by PR0P264CA0161.FRAP264.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:100:1b::29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4523.14 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:14:35 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 17367514-1c46-419a-44d2-08d97956fc85 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB9P194MB1481: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(39860400002)(346002)(376002)(366004)(136003)(396003)(956004)(26005)(52116002)(53546011)(38350700002)(2616005)(31686004)(66556008)(5660300002)(66476007)(66946007)(86362001)(31696002)(186003)(110136005)(44832011)(83380400001)(8936002)(2906002)(478600001)(316002)(16576012)(38100700002)(8676002)(6486002)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?MXNiU3U5YmFuaEluTTZqRUNzNjh6Tld1Uk9OQ1VaT09UMjRyRFlacWxzLzZL?= =?utf-8?B?OERXTHJrd25ZTGpBL1I2V0xSR2lvTkQ5MlhNdytNdjR4VTJyZXRTYmh1OCtY?= =?utf-8?B?YlhlbFg3MW1JTWZTT2t4WGZzcnFTOThIckZHakdpOGhKL0piTHgzYzViNHNy?= =?utf-8?B?dnllZCtQNHRoUDlrMTFFdi9DNDFTTTc4blBORndVZlc2OUNZaDZGK0ZqeTR6?= =?utf-8?B?WklEMjFBcVA3WktDMlRLM1ovSzUwNXowMEFSdWRjd1IrazUwc094VzRkYlRY?= =?utf-8?B?dXBEU05SOSttWFlROWx3SlZTcmVkU3UwTmEzVDNjOWI5a0Job2Zlc2lYMEh1?= =?utf-8?B?aXBFRTlZd1hqZUpjZW5oN3htNVpLOS9hWTk5bUV5RHlpN2VjZkNFMGl3V2Ez?= =?utf-8?B?bVp2SDdmdjE4U1JjRFFoNEVxZTA0VHcrTmZ5VDFBNHhYbUpOWEd2RjlXcVN3?= =?utf-8?B?aWQweUluZmM5aEpERkI0QjQ3ODhVZDIwcG50U3QwaHh5YXJJYlVxVEVpYitV?= =?utf-8?B?RjBrbGp2WGlJeXN4SCtpZ3NOeUdGdzV1RVJNanltb1BWYlMwQ3JpN0RKQlg0?= =?utf-8?B?VkZXRmpwVzlNL1lEMk5OYUtyVWYwc2pBOTJ1Q0RwWmtuZmVqdnA1Y1d3OXZK?= =?utf-8?B?UHJCTjh3aGV5bnQvZUVlTzYxTy9UWDJJK29SOUpTOVAyRzdESXJYbTUxWTNO?= =?utf-8?B?U09SQVpaNHMwc284d1FhQ1lQSytPMW9YT3ZNdWhBTkduWFVjRTdRUHdJYlkz?= =?utf-8?B?emxPYUc0UTJUWkdlazlobVcvdGVMR1dWNW9RT3djVXZhVEpsdlFOS0FZUzV4?= =?utf-8?B?MU5mMUlCU29ic3dCbTUza25Nb1ZCSkkzU2JVbGQzbjE2dHdiRGtRVlZDUXZL?= =?utf-8?B?Tk9HR0FkOHNBTFBPMXVnYy9RZVBvRlpmVDhWbTJxbExQa2pLZjRiTXhPRVlz?= =?utf-8?B?c1BMTVZZb1pKWXpLanE3QnZPQ1JIYjVQVjRhWTE5VENsYXRKMU9xcnl1WGdQ?= =?utf-8?B?TWJTaE54T0pITlltek1DM3lGRGxib0NIWkE1amtiMU1jb0UyOUxORk5uV25t?= =?utf-8?B?cCtlUVhZTjJtYkhEN2F3QW0yVk0wSHhNTXRFYVFhMFVNL25vcVNkVi9ncVYz?= =?utf-8?B?RG1ISTQvOUM0c1pqcmE1azk1cm04V01aZHZ5RGFRUnpnUEtSZVo1LzVnNVl5?= =?utf-8?B?dWkrNEFHSkhHcWdKNmxQNDNicWhBZFNzUW8vZmN5d1VtemkvKzV2a0NNSXRi?= =?utf-8?B?Nnc4aVF2Wm5QZ201VVNPN2UrVUFuaUZ4YnJxZkVGUldhRm0yRW5mdUY4eTNw?= =?utf-8?B?b2xYcnlSYnV3Qk9FZ09yRTVGdkxFcmtVOEQ3R1dzN1NuRmFEREJVcDBQSUpQ?= =?utf-8?B?WHIxUzhUSnc4KzNKaHd6eThzT25RZFBoNmN4dVNSb24vN1ZSWUlWTmdZbXJr?= =?utf-8?B?dkxMSGtkVml6NVhRQ0M1TG9xbkgxSFVRQ3FZVHAvTnNtc3lXaUxCNmJYcHc0?= =?utf-8?B?WE4wdkhhZ2NLR2NCVThVU3k0b2hZSm0zN090Mzk2SmdmR0xyTnJZQVUvcWxS?= =?utf-8?B?MGpPbUVRb2FJbWQzZHNDMlovMmxmOVVMb0lzVTZsQ1hYZXk3eGVnYVJObHlu?= =?utf-8?B?YTlmTTdNZTBkQ01jRGQ3U3hUY1NjcUlJSWtVSlJBUFRFbS9pNjBkVXdsVE5x?= =?utf-8?B?eWlkMmozbHp6NmtFd2F6NEtMSGMwcVBwOUQwK0pTaGRPNnQzcTVaMkJmRXZ5?= =?utf-8?Q?QGZza5AdreDqjA+V8Ak3tOhk5IFvQMffjnkh7iF?= X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 17367514-1c46-419a-44d2-08d97956fc85 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Sep 2021 21:14:36.2417 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: f930300c-c97d-4019-be03-add650a171c4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: ZvHyBEc700HR32uxRBx4JjKjW2ATc8iNeL1RJ8fzR06vSwktMZD/a1l2kktEyLFXEozIapXr3/NLmJ7+kmQ+iDQppbfxwFnG6XEoL1H8eIA= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB9P194MB1481 X-OriginatorOrg: sit.fraunhofer.de Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:15:10 -0000 Minutes are not the only notes taken at notes.ietf.org. I would stop using it, if things would simply disappear, obviously. How is this a good idea? On 16.09.21 23:09, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 17-Sep-21 07:22, Michael Richardson wrote: >> >> Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> >> >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. >> >> > (Again, I don’t know whether this was a serious proposal. > I’ll treat >> > is as such for the purpose of this message.) >> >> Well, I'm serious. >> I think 30 days might be way too long. >> >> WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end of the >> session. It's not hard. >> But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within the > day, >> and there will be some crying. Some WG session minutes will go away. > > One day is too short; back in the good old days, when most of us suffered > jet lag after each meeting, a week to capture the minutes and copy-edit > them was hardly enough. But I do agree, this is a major duty of WG chairs > or secretaries, and needs to be done promptly. > > I wouldn't call it notes.ietf.org. I'd call it temp.ietf.org. Or at least, > put everything in notes.ietf.org/temp/ and move it to notes.ietf.org/recycle/ > after 30 days and then to /dev/null after another 30 days. Something like > that, anyway, depending on how it would integrate with HedgeDoc. > > Brian >> >> > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or Google >> > docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a common >> > service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it and > we >> > can integrate it into other tools. >> >> Agreed. >> >> > From nobody Thu Sep 16 14:17:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5193A0A3D; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:17:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iki.fi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0cKmMGe-PxZB; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lahtoruutu.iki.fi (lahtoruutu.iki.fi [185.185.170.37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD5473A0A3A; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fireball.acr.fi (fireball.kivinen.iki.fi [IPv6:2001:1bc8:100d::2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: kivinen@iki.fi) by lahtoruutu.iki.fi (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BD6651B00120; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 00:17:26 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iki.fi; s=lahtoruutu; t=1631827046; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=T6NsGZ/6SljC/XOKJ28sN43Y3D8miegpccMIWVE+S0w=; b=q+UvRadtrdIo3mhy/2QX2x7KRcbmp+Y9Imhed3Y68RC29jU/ZBBOENSXtUZK2wbrG3A9Nj nVMhEdddtJ1wR7Yz74BZkiHdMbpE9x6Lim8AwgvjsQGIQqpZZ8x70b+pfWVaYokPraTJFC U22e+CI5+oqoVSMS6B0TR1Y5CmOLMcXpczuqTmPnoV4dKvyDiMz6YUuvrexG12CR051lS5 TIj3JVUIfRle0wV262Cxj6VkTTNuUe/frWa4Cr2QyKm8KxPxa6uvbb4mtgx8xLIaBl4vzG QSzghHBRD1NUByo6ycSR46tppQEJAp7PRjzQJNXEBqFe7hQ5TkWOXChZAxi3aw== Received: by fireball.acr.fi (Postfix, from userid 15204) id 207DE25C12B7; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 00:17:26 +0300 (EEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <24899.46182.82529.393383@fireball.acr.fi> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 00:17:26 +0300 From: Tero Kivinen To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (x86_64--netbsd) X-Edit-Time: 8 min X-Total-Time: 8 min ARC-Seal: i=1; s=lahtoruutu; d=iki.fi; t=1631827046; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=MfrBb0S3xJo15/jA2tcQQwidIxQC+Cq6uLl6F2sJIcg6YGIpvFSoYLK9/lmnU8EfMXbz5r ikrF18ZHzNLPECnx3JTJXvYOwDVlcGuNbFJSID9oPWnZAwg5U3kifU/uGP+7hHdhwsdKFh W6lpq/l5HSgCeGwHfjDFxgkT5KCpBrKhUrEwnWLiUuS2lMiBQdFbrGfavAIdvhXsu8U9+z Hy4++V+TB33GNbZ7cVTURsq8gDw6AxsvaA5xkGppjqhybJC6xMxc6322qoz2KVIXj8oSTH 8xf8XgVYKh3Gar1czGaw2i30Nk42jzJZWIxaJ/uIZzLDAQuxbMzUoQOogfyWRg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iki.fi; s=lahtoruutu; t=1631827046; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=T6NsGZ/6SljC/XOKJ28sN43Y3D8miegpccMIWVE+S0w=; b=ZKXzmRYmDVqYVhhs+kQU/VRsgPgSi81WOl1U9tdluIPfnZk0V0FUc2mLnHAw1BWp75pmCc T+HMIYt+AT9d508hoE/kcMPXTpk8+F8A+BT2JKdAwybcHp2+pKCDYwG0FLMCWvkq9jw1+x 38bbwre4/1yMpN+I/ZrEy6sUAa+RsYY6zCNWr032nITD6pGb+bbqBx/LOnGQU48iK5peLU oxqGkZuRuc0EYxQlLPt5mBQG/ljM59mhTSTvTv/zM4Y2EhzD55vBoT7RXLwAjjNkzfLGog MSjcrAz9OFzzoAoo5fBhVYsOS591iQMW1Fg41z9Wiu3d6IY1gphR2ByRrs9Vfw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; ORIGINATING; auth=pass smtp.auth=kivinen@iki.fi smtp.mailfrom=kivinen@iki.fi Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:17:41 -0000 Carsten Bormann writes: >=20 > > On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >=20 > > Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. >=20 > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious proposal. > I=E2=80=99ll treat is as such for the purpose of this message.) I also think this automatic delete after 30 days would be good improvement. Or actually I would say 30 days after last edit (and if the last editor has datatracker account we could send email notifying that the note will expire in 7 days or similar).=20 In addition that we do need an easy way to transfer data from the notes.ietf.org to the datatracker. I.e., a way I can go to the datatracker for my WG, and say this note in the notes.ietf.org should be imported to the datatracker with this title (i.e., interm meeting notes, or IETF xxx minutes or whatever).=20 > Or, don=E2=80=99t offer the service at all=3F > (Probably better than deleting it 30 days after creation (!).) >=20 > Most of the people who have done work in the IETF know about the > value of accessing random traces of that work from the past. After a > couple of decades, we mostly got rid of the 6-month ideology around > Internet-Drafts; I wouldn=E2=80=99t want to repeat that painful exper= ience. >=20 > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or > Google docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a > common service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it > and we can integrate it into other tools. >=20 > Crippling such a service because we can=E2=80=99t figure out how to k= eep up > some ideology strikes me as an expression of contempt for the work > of the IETF=E2=80=99s contributors. You don=E2=80=99t have to feel th= e same way, but > it should be well understood that this is the signal that is being > sent. The problem with notes.ietf.org is not that we can't keep the data, itis that we can't find the data. I have no idea what was the etherpad url for my session 4 years ago. I can most likely find it from the chair slides if I happened to copy it there, but otherwise I would need to go and find it from the somewhere else. If we force people to move pages out from notes.ietf.org after the session finishes, they are archived in the location where we can actually find them. They can be stored to the datatracker as minutes etc, or they can be moved to the working group wiki or similar. Storing data is useless if people can't find it, and etherpad/notes.ietf.org are both in that category. --=20 kivinen@iki.fi From nobody Thu Sep 16 14:27:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427633A0B53 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:26:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3p9oMRYSwzXq for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx36-out21.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out21.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78C5C3A0B46 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse73.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.73] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx133.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mQyuA-0009Hs-K7 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:26:51 +0200 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4H9VX91MVZzBGJ for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.49] (helo=xmail11.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mQyu9-0001MG-2b for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:26:49 -0700 Received: (qmail 27865 invoked from network); 16 Sep 2021 21:26:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.103]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.141]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail11.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 16 Sep 2021 21:26:48 -0000 To: Tero Kivinen , Carsten Bormann Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <24899.46182.82529.393383@fireball.acr.fi> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: <8aa7c46f-39db-6efc-941e-55c661347e0b@huitema.net> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:26:48 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24899.46182.82529.393383@fireball.acr.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.73 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5xYBsnYv/AS8SzTL27x6/ipEuOubvMjlOVGoG6MTUBsWIJL M0i5ZAms0EHrvcCaVINvIUvqaFRyjrIcJLzRrslOzIXV52OyeiH3YVVX92r9x1Hy6O0dCYlf9T05 vJHa3fKcXUnX/NPpaaHkXcvmoaj84xG2XC2LNoOkp4vxUMQqVx6IjGdSKn6aI9pXlx3shQxNOuP9 1GZ8SLb9PsvsohdeIRFsicyJMEhQFtD8PLoinjFCU0tibMaZMfiByLA2q5th8eXuGDB+WvlcaPhs +IMOep61KNolF2DlH2a2LdpMMmtrv2iUsvl2CC901V0YBrviEnzvvDcGs5qmm9XDE2pdZWZmIMWJ G2DzNierwWd45v2o1X92Cn4UU9JJ17dQkS7izDj4VfLGYhV5rU4pWppWERZjMvwfvbhZOry+t8BT U6S6BiS1pgrDY9yDlGBfLaRjewJ1p2KNOGtnsuIcf3b/prnOfejoy0ryl/SE9sCR4JkwTwd6I5MF c+Z5FxsZqYBzHDeqqFz43py4SDhdaHkWtttM+AEGzHMWbMjn66ZaUCrNIt931t/mGMxkBVmaFrrv 0WvccUdI+IzEq7KENpKmYu8C5mJ57ZG9g9QfbBpIF04i48Xcfj93b8optspViB3ujwN5vAr2fQEN gxhN/KmvT74ZEqLd8l9FM+v8+4kcTQW9a+S94i0vsohoujsUQr9Z+JJDNDyg1Ws2Rd4k3jeTgNkF OcBBatyNM1QnEFvsP6saNVwAnl+5fdd/JjOg93chu1/rdU1t/SWu+yxj6TsAPm6ecXYJStDsRX7f ZJL7tBxHx5OlXOwSpUqAHfd6HCyN9/YGRrhMRGhIOTxMW00yF8F1u0YDQf8cLP9taeSLFY0fPBnF 89BphpBNlUg+TzHwBTL1+6vDOMemz/4I88NDcmnEJ4r7C+SwLRamrhQTd3PrpJpP5ewAjeqkzRNl ucyd+NO2McmveAr4ch9F7rE89jihx+Za/cV70jOJzN2r4A== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:26:58 -0000 On 9/16/2021 2:17 PM, Tero Kivinen wrote: > The problem with notes.ietf.org is not that we can't keep the data, > itis that we can't find the data. I have no idea what was the etherpad > url for my session 4 years ago. I can most likely find it from the > chair slides if I happened to copy it there, but otherwise I would > need to go and find it from the somewhere else. Of course, that creates a special problem for archival, standard processes, etc. What if someone writes something they should not, gets the point across in the WG, and then edits the note to remove the offensive text? What is supposed to be archived? Just the note, or the whole editing history? -- Christian Huitema From nobody Thu Sep 16 15:16:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E715B3A0E32; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:16:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L8255EDkQkHR; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1030.google.com (mail-pj1-x1030.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498B33A0E2D; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1030.google.com with SMTP id nn5-20020a17090b38c500b0019af1c4b31fso5852829pjb.3; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:16:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=693+hQlbPea3hHdyUv4U3o54fSAJP/HC9rFYr7gAbE8=; b=VjaUymo8QBwEPUo53AMCvOi8ooFDK5ZLYIuGICajBGnjiIsew1g7DO/6eZX5u01h44 GOQsJxqU+tWtqfQskLcIxk2Nz/yemWaGQogHtGQlCEjV+Qx2LEbUS3XgXOJsnPlz+QyP 4Ee9bOkjBx3WRB4E4rsDp9j1mIVwV839Q2lgcP1urjyIr4ryTjcaYRSPPp846w3ml1rb vUYARcJop/QLWo1ak9Bot9Lf0+bVkueq524JsGYcaYB6sDkLOoHOWEA5+6lfP/xERBJA PJyHdmg2QrmEQGIDxSCPSwRztr72CxTLQJUjnXEUfTk9ogM7QphzzHIq/oH4b9GWJEjE Abgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=693+hQlbPea3hHdyUv4U3o54fSAJP/HC9rFYr7gAbE8=; b=5TdAOFbANQWPR/hmjjU9SmhC/ei8ZIwiOGQ4J3jjKqKLGOLy3ABsyYG+MAzPWBMNcV jATU4991DnBN0N+qQpfnjUp4MrTB023ILVWwMKzi8rCfgtwv6baLQ1luRUsc2c0cxaQB Zmgk3uQuiNa2cG3ApfadlVtjQjTQBxcRQpUVrBGRxeUjxW/ONZ8iAzUT0v5Vbd9zFQJf Mk0pRlAoaJPeAagkhnJZqXbH1d39GPjohu21SttDRPDtteJXo5SZGMcEoFw6jx86Stjv vqPxd0PnQj0awbdkJwmniCCkuw19JFnimotU8xA6D1fK93M1edwJWwPB3wM58J80ZGGC pJ6w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532+MDts7ZsnN1MR4htvq4/e7MidL3GjsBeCIkM0mUJw/zT8cXul yAaE21pg/KTfbE5gthgpQkua3lZT2GVHdQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwAfBRvXxUmLAXJu85OsWj5CKKZyCC2M8RCFoO+NHMy15jhKi451zziRpmNF1Fxwd7ODbS7MA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:7503:: with SMTP id q3mr8448312pjk.161.1631830583714; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i7sm4129265pgd.56.2021.09.16.15.16.20 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:16:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Henk Birkholz , Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <93bdbb89-4aca-267c-6970-11f1c307003d@gmail.com> <13291778-0f4c-58d8-4d8b-ec6928cdaae8@sit.fraunhofer.de> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:16:18 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <13291778-0f4c-58d8-4d8b-ec6928cdaae8@sit.fraunhofer.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 22:16:31 -0000 On 17-Sep-21 09:14, Henk Birkholz wrote: > Minutes are not the only notes taken at notes.ietf.org. I would stop=20 > using it, if things would simply disappear, obviously. How is this a=20 > good idea? Henk, I may well be old-fashioned, but when I want something to be kept, I keep it: save it on my disk, and make sure it's in a directory that gets backed up routinely. Anybody who used geocities.com knows why. (I'm biased on this question. In about 1993 I tried to persuade Tim Berners-Lee to make an expiry date obligatory for every HTML page. I still think he was wrong to refuse.) It's also important to specify this from the start. We probably don't want rough notes to become part of the public record of standards activities, and subject to subpoena. Brian >=20 >=20 > On 16.09.21 23:09, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 17-Sep-21 07:22, Michael Richardson wrote: >>> >>> Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wr= ote: >>> >> >>> >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. >>> >>> > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious propos= al. >> I=E2=80=99ll treat >>> > is as such for the purpose of this message.) >>> >>> Well, I'm serious. >>> I think 30 days might be way too long. >>> >>> WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end=20 of the >>> session. It's not hard. >>> But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within t= he >> day, >>> and there will be some crying. Some WG session minutes will go away= =2E >> >> One day is too short; back in the good old days, when most of us suffe= red >> jet lag after each meeting, a week to capture the minutes and copy-edi= t >> them was hardly enough. But I do agree, this is a major duty of WG cha= irs >> or secretaries, and needs to be done promptly. >> >> I wouldn't call it notes.ietf.org. I'd call it temp.ietf.org. Or at le= ast, >> put everything in notes.ietf.org/temp/ and move it to notes.ietf.org/r= ecycle/ >> after 30 days and then to /dev/null after another 30 days. Something l= ike >> that, anyway, depending on how it would integrate with HedgeDoc. >> >> Brian >>> >>> > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io o= r Google >>> > docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a comm= on >>> > service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it = and >> we >>> > can integrate it into other tools. >>> >>> Agreed. >>> >>> >> From nobody Thu Sep 16 16:40:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DAD3A0A64; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:40:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2IO20ZcZwzDS; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E2843A0A62; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4H9YV73SP2z6GBB6; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:40:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1631835615; bh=IWBBjfIjC4J+pu7AYjU/+BewENMSJxFI0d8NoaaxuA0=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Ko6wWxjYFGNyb1O1qzcKsy5KQRGXulAfs7PVBzqj3/DqlU0tJ85NbzONReziGVc4L 5BFCuvzpDbKv8n68XO5pSvD7wZCLL6u9hdZMP6fggPUGfrR7aaFc1b9zZlWBjUsBUf 1ut+3jG7fp10In5RImb8Fpy+1kV7JDiYRmE+Kjlc= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H9YV64vMmz6GBB7; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Richardson , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:40:13 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1536418.1631821801@dooku> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:40:22 -0000 To amplify Michael's point and respond to a couple of others... 1) These are draft notes. They are likely to be wrong. If we archive them, we may be archiving information that is false to fact. That is why chairs / WG Secretaries review minutes before posting, and then ask the WG to review them as well. We should not expect the leadership to maintain two sets of accurate minutes. So getting rid of the draft is good. 2) If folks want to use the tools for something else, great. But that does not create an obligation on the IETF to make the tool behave differently. If there is some other use case that is needed, either use some other tool, or convince the IETF that we need a tool to support the use case you have. Yours, Joel On 9/16/2021 3:50 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Christian Huitema wrote: > > The IETF already archives mail messages and Internet drafts. How hard > > would it be to archive notes and minutes? After all, this texts are > > part of the standard making process, covered by the Note Well, etc. > > Sure, just upload them as minutes to the DT, and it gets archived already. > > For now, WG chairs need to do that, which also means that they have an > opportunity to review the conent. > > A significant annoyance is that we don't have a standard markdown across all our > content archives. > > From nobody Thu Sep 16 16:55:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B673A0BCF for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:54:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=O6+98CO5; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=iDghYbfI Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1fXoDEVO-A8y for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47E083A0BD2 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7601F5C0184 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:54:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:54:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=8t3u7Lrot0o2WWBDwOxMQvHWCBmIyiw Ocmb3QoGEAd8=; b=O6+98CO5v+W907AQylB6VMmYUT/5Ugig+YFgGLi2y1MM6uq 35hhHc2OUTTH8yLiry6VKkcJitP92VRAYYtu+GGkvW5v0h4ivAQzReepvy8TEDj8 TkZocDct1pPIHSLQCykzaeSjqMylPIRvEatSezf/Xrf+osj0y14Yc8F682uwWEVs reSo88jFclRFx/aHs3lAfRIZTNd4dCVQ0QBOGBHM4rNdwolTXh+fRzZwBBU67SWb hQnyK8nLkCBQMDwuGRiG8auGSqUozSVp0THiQcCTdCgCkHorrtkNnUBDq4d9FSCo d1RA0R9a+Uvds27LsfVS9RIwwpz5HbYjzBb3IFg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=8t3u7L rot0o2WWBDwOxMQvHWCBmIyiwOcmb3QoGEAd8=; b=iDghYbfISOzswbJRSbRsGi /nL391Tskw/ld1BgUsfRfgUOxzvi3Dr4lXjudI36R1XGa8Oz3yfIhYwHRRQFKe+a NEy5SoUEgxYgR7umspBFJSQcEOqoR3UVTeBBJMXZVb0Ks786i20125GOTXE3EqSA KDaygLQd+0yPRylt/nFs8ocSHOngYVoBIxtI7QXWtI5Pakl2CtSkIO40Rcf92BnQ dT1cO7iTsQWQEn+5Y+UDwL2zxAbbtNiqjneuiWtG55C8AG2ZKueWfofmYdASKt2j wta6NFqQL4YHh5URyX6JfkOTYkg0jF88EPs1zcFLw5zkmMqYzc19cRRQq4J+0qfw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudehhedgvdejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeffgffhffekgedtudfffe evieeiieeggefgueffleevleeftedvtdfgtefhffejtdenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhf rdhorhhgpdiffedrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmh grihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1AEEB3C0D56; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:54:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1291-gc66fc0a3a2-fm-20210913.001-gc66fc0a3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:54:23 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:54:59 -0000 Thanks for the links Robert, but a small query. On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, at 00:29, Robert Sparks wrote: > rfcdiff is at www.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff (this is where you will land if > you use the diff features from the History tab any draft. Is http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=... a final location and the replacement for https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=... ? I ask only because the pyht thing might be something you want to remove (see https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html and "What to leave out"). From nobody Thu Sep 16 19:15:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0743A187D; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:15:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9DLIXKUsF76I; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 642363A187B; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H9cwv6qTZz2xQ5; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:15:11 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:15:11 +0200 Cc: Michael Richardson , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 653537711.556407-e715fc3bf96a70352f9919e428f97bd7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:15:22 -0000 On 2021-09-17, at 01:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >=20 > 2) If folks want to use the tools for something else, great. But that = does not create an obligation on the IETF to make the tool behave = differently. If there is some other use case that is needed, either use = some other tool, or convince the IETF that we need a tool to support the = use case you have. Joel, You are falling prey to an availability bias here. You have only ever been using that tool for minutes, so you think the = tool needs to be changed to more closely follow some random thinking = about minutes. I don=E2=80=99t care that much whether the IETF destroys its draft = minutes, because I do know to back up those drafts that I=E2=80=99ll = likely need. But leading this discussion in complete disregard for the other uses of = this tool is exactly the kind of =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t understand = this, so let=E2=80=99s break it=E2=80=9D thinking that has recently = become so characteristic of IETF process discussions. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 16 19:33:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11CBB3A18FD; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:32:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=p6WLL25z; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=IQMCWT9d Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id znPomfk5iFjc; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8BC93A18FA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121553200941; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 22:32:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 22:32:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=w DpMX5Wp/NbQR1UneYOSYh82jb8qfrOTWiGmkXocraI=; b=p6WLL25zIb/wz6gUr Zm723ojK4hpGNnojgxDAhRZP452Jlq5oWmY3/5pnFuMwTd5P8+aX8/b6yqNtE32Z 7AwS29DROxCBuDfbiF0iqGbPce73DtaG5EEt8Wkg4Vf0f+fdQWDf1kUvIWtTrqEL P7CCHlW94RD5Knr1RQMIZyVCQ8Lv2ZsTsZ5SS/TCdXjjQyRhUQdDkAA0BD4HQ/y2 IK6+46kJpyGZoZ0HYNCKjjQ3PBH5MModZNcvLpIQ9wy51HOdvpZMqewZezvquR7p F/BBaYJCZ8yyJQPCMvDbxDRiOqmQ2c7ajR+LpA5qTFTJJaU2B/naV9NiDF1LoDpW ifYtQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=wDpMX5Wp/NbQR1UneYOSYh82jb8qfrOTWiGmkXocr aI=; b=IQMCWT9dEFHAA17Jb7JwYEU9aOCwFGrx+oLI1GztbujY39CzTWxbm24X9 UGC2pza8xvwChOKB4J62nDSeeEUlbdpTHueqxyDUMoSxDs1hBDH9UZCF3uR1LgEh 5e/cXSJFu3qzTWQjYeWmy21iLLeEoZlX6IRuD6SenQA6ADtHN9mWQE/tCH5yp9nb ahAjymwPrThmJ3FW9SRhjgojT5/wlX4CiadmuIra+IU3NQ/hX4tTYvxEHC/NefDw mW4Ttb6M04Sqpk2R3l1CSmYivZSCvQs9dDsetqg5pLM7SbbMnlDxmSoVUH8XnbCp 0HohOo779yib8USXzANRdphqfRm3Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudehhedgheelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpefhieffhefgtdekteejfffhgfegieelieeljeeigfdutddtvdehfeekgfevvdel keenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtpdhivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhn vght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 22:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:32:24 +1000 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Michael Richardson , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss , Working Chairs Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:32:38 -0000 Carsten, It has been an informal tool for some time. I (along with others, = apparently) am concerned about it becoming a formal dependency by = stealth, consuming resources and causing confusion. If you have use cases for it, that's great -- bring them up and we can = have a discussion about whether they should be supported (with the = corresponding dedication of resources). You haven't done that, though - = you seem to be assuming that because you've used an informal tool in a = particular way in the past, that will automatically be supported on an = ongoing basis. In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions in a = disparaging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF process. I = understand you may be frustrated, but I don't think doing so is = constructive. Cheers, > On 17 Sep 2021, at 12:15 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2021-09-17, at 01:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>=20 >> 2) If folks want to use the tools for something else, great. But = that does not create an obligation on the IETF to make the tool behave = differently. If there is some other use case that is needed, either use = some other tool, or convince the IETF that we need a tool to support the = use case you have. >=20 > Joel, >=20 > You are falling prey to an availability bias here. >=20 > You have only ever been using that tool for minutes, so you think the = tool needs to be changed to more closely follow some random thinking = about minutes. > I don=E2=80=99t care that much whether the IETF destroys its draft = minutes, because I do know to back up those drafts that I=E2=80=99ll = likely need. >=20 > But leading this discussion in complete disregard for the other uses = of this tool is exactly the kind of =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t understand = this, so let=E2=80=99s break it=E2=80=9D thinking that has recently = become so characteristic of IETF process discussions. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Sep 16 19:41:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE88B3A1940 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:41:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fozh3KZatwB5 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4B2C3A193E for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18H2extB044232 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:40:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631846460; bh=3ZCQ3p9xGhXMCNbeJ/RumXv79o2Me8qTPUyCZBLpEas=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=WySbi7vjmRmypiU3nyESb5DxhhwZUqF0+SRtph0R/eGhKiXdM6N2cQlq0O+cRlCfy MTqqOWvEO37I1LUlOEeFmfeQxfGUZdx3eO5U/coyzOZK736zDr7Z6vUmUBw/xKBXLu UlJxB8ezjaAVnJnA9zFLrcsMFlHhIFHmUB8uwmrU= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Thomson References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:40:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:41:07 -0000 Um, wow? No - where did you find the link that exposed the pyht - did I send=20 that? I'm surprised it works, and is an unintended consequence of the=20 webserver configuration. It should simply be http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/?url1=3D at least at the moment - I think we should probably put things like=20 rfcdiff, idnits, idspell, or such somewhere that's not buried in=20 www.ietf.org, but perhaps that's another conversation. The phyt bit is an implementation detail that may change, and shouldn't=20 be visible. Please let me know offline what led you to it. RjS On 9/16/21 6:54 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > Thanks for the links Robert, but a small query. > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, at 00:29, Robert Sparks wrote: >> rfcdiff is at www.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff (this is where you will land = if >> you use the diff features from the History tab any draft. > Is http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3D... a final location= and the replacement for https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3D... ? > > I ask only because the pyht thing might be something you want to remove= (see https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html and "What to leave out")= =2E > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Thu Sep 16 19:44:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5631F3A1970 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:44:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pq6FVQtuqP9u for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A984B3A1969 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18H2iSmb045416 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:44:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631846669; bh=e6J2t0z5lYxs3wUzI4nbq3KLvXeiBkMPCZXURKaK1pY=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=A24b1Q6uXmwpg5GLpOX5y/Gj57q4Bhs9boq4VD4XgR7FxpF1FHta9ITWzEPwRvKwV JLXywt+kKgFCBRW4xOE+Czar8rlrxuezp9rt8TsrqO0f54zHygWVAU7B1ElT8bkgir CcvR8YUuWI+GbdvfneW4faQ6TOhoPoCd7ZswpKrA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain From: Robert Sparks To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Thomson References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> Message-ID: <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:44:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:44:36 -0000 Ah - I see at least one place where it leaks (in the instructions at the bottom of the default form - I will be sure that is addressed. Thanks for calling attention to it - if you see it anywhere else, please let me know. RjS On 9/16/21 9:40 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > Um, wow? > > No - where did you find the link that exposed the pyht - did I send > that? I'm surprised it works, and is an unintended consequence of the > webserver configuration. > > It should simply be http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/?url1= > > at least at the moment - I think we should probably put things like > rfcdiff, idnits, idspell, or such somewhere that's not buried in > www.ietf.org, but perhaps that's another conversation. > > The phyt bit is an implementation detail that may change, and > shouldn't be visible. Please let me know offline what led you to it. > > RjS > > On 9/16/21 6:54 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >> Thanks for the links Robert, but a small query. >> >> On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, at 00:29, Robert Sparks wrote: >>> rfcdiff is at www.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff (this is where you will >>> land if >>> you use the diff features from the History tab any draft. >> Is http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=... a final location >> and the replacement for https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=... ? >> >> I ask only because the pyht thing might be something you want to >> remove (see https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html and "What to >> leave out"). >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Thu Sep 16 19:48:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8805F3A198B; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:48:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id coveWg9EFfxX; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE9F53A1988; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H9dfj0hxcz2xQF; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:47:57 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:47:56 +0200 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Michael Richardson , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss , Working Chairs X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 653539675.764185-279781ffcb7a31efb79d78d0ddbf0b4b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:48:08 -0000 > In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions in a = disparaging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF process. I = understand you may be frustrated, but I don't think doing so is = constructive. Mark, sometimes it is absolutely necessary to express how a discourse makes = one feel. Yes, this discussion is frustrating and unlikely to lead anywhere good, = and I have to choose my battles. I made my points, and I will shut up now. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 16 21:15:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029EC3A1C57; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:12:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vil2utZ1VLgl; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E25353A1C55; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.201]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4H9gT00gs4z67lJ7; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:09:40 +0800 (CST) Received: from dggeml752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.151) by fraeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:11:55 +0200 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.152) by dggeml752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:11:53 +0800 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) by dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.008; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:11:53 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Brian E Carpenter , Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival Thread-Index: AdereARHCmUYmZlNTriGcv6ttZe/1g== Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:11:53 +0000 Message-ID: <4846744018e545e7a5b20f626ebb02ad@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:12:06 -0000 T24gMTctU2VwLTIxIDA3OjIyLCBNaWNoYWVsIFJpY2hhcmRzb24gd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPiBDYXJz dGVuIEJvcm1hbm4gPGNhYm9AdHppLm9yZz4gd3JvdGU6DQo+ICAgICA+PiBPbiAxNi4gU2VwIDIw MjEsIGF0IDA5OjQ2LCBNYXJrIE5vdHRpbmdoYW0gPG1ub3RAbW5vdC5uZXQ+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiAg ICAgPj4gDQo+ICAgICA+PiBPciwganVzdCBhdXRvbWF0aWNhbGx5IGRlbGV0ZSBub3RlcyAzMCBk YXlzIGFmdGVyIGNyZWF0aW9uLg0KPiANCj4gICAgID4gKEFnYWluLCBJIGRvbuKAmXQga25vdyB3 aGV0aGVyIHRoaXMgd2FzIGEgc2VyaW91cyBwcm9wb3NhbC4gDQogSeKAmWxsIHRyZWF0DQo+ICAg ICA+IGlzIGFzIHN1Y2ggZm9yIHRoZSBwdXJwb3NlIG9mIHRoaXMgbWVzc2FnZS4pDQo+IA0KPiBX ZWxsLCBJJ20gc2VyaW91cy4NCj4gSSB0aGluayAzMCBkYXlzIG1pZ2h0IGJlIHdheSB0b28gbG9u Zy4NCj4gDQo+IFdHIGFuZCBkZXNpZ24gdGVhbSBsZWFkZXJzIHNob3VsZCBrbm93IHRvIGRvd25s b2FkIG1pbnV0ZXMgYXQgdGhlIGVuZCANCj4gb2YgdGhlIHNlc3Npb24uICBJdCdzIG5vdCBoYXJk Lg0KPiBCdXQsIGluIG9yZGVyIHRvIHRyYWluIHRoYXQsIHRoZSBjb250ZW50cyBuZWVkcyB0byBk aXNhcHBlYXIgd2l0aGluIA0KPiB0aGUNCmRheSwNCj4gYW5kIHRoZXJlIHdpbGwgYmUgc29tZSBj cnlpbmcuICAgU29tZSBXRyBzZXNzaW9uIG1pbnV0ZXMgd2lsbCBnbyBhd2F5Lg0KDQpPbmUgZGF5 IGlzIHRvbyBzaG9ydDsgYmFjayBpbiB0aGUgZ29vZCBvbGQgZGF5cywgd2hlbiBtb3N0IG9mIHVz IHN1ZmZlcmVkIGpldCBsYWcgYWZ0ZXIgZWFjaCBtZWV0aW5nLCBhIHdlZWsgdG8gY2FwdHVyZSB0 aGUgbWludXRlcyBhbmQgY29weS1lZGl0IHRoZW0gd2FzIGhhcmRseSBlbm91Z2guIEJ1dCBJIGRv IGFncmVlLCB0aGlzIGlzIGEgbWFqb3IgZHV0eSBvZiBXRyBjaGFpcnMgb3Igc2VjcmV0YXJpZXMs IGFuZCBuZWVkcyB0byBiZSBkb25lIHByb21wdGx5LiANCg0KSSB3b3VsZG4ndCBjYWxsIGl0IG5v dGVzLmlldGYub3JnLiBJJ2QgY2FsbCBpdCB0ZW1wLmlldGYub3JnLiBPciBhdCBsZWFzdCwgcHV0 IGV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcgaW4gbm90ZXMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvdGVtcC8gYW5kIG1vdmUgaXQgdG8gbm90ZXMu aWV0Zi5vcmcvcmVjeWNsZS8gYWZ0ZXIgMzAgZGF5cyBhbmQgdGhlbiB0byAvZGV2L251bGwgYWZ0 ZXIgYW5vdGhlciAzMCBkYXlzLiBTb21ldGhpbmcgbGlrZSB0aGF0LCBhbnl3YXksIGRlcGVuZGlu ZyBvbiBob3cgaXQgd291bGQgaW50ZWdyYXRlIHdpdGggSGVkZ2VEb2MuDQoNCiAgIEJyaWFuIA0K W1Fpbl0gSWYgeW91IGxvZyBvbiBIZWRnZURvYyB1c2luZyB5b3VyIElFVEYgYWNjb3VudCwgeW91 IHdpbGwgc2VlIGFsbCB0aGUgV0cncyBub3Rlcy5pZXRmLm9yZyB5b3UgaGF2ZSB2aXNpdGVkIGJl Zm9yZS4gSSBjYW4gZXZlbiBzZWUgc29tZSBXRyBub3RlcyAxMCBtb250aHMgYWdvLiBJIGFncmVl IHRvIGtlZXAgdGhlc2UgdGVtcG9yYXJ5IG5vdGVzIGZvciBhIHdoaWxlLiBCdXQgdG8gYXZvaWQg Y29uZnVzaW9uIHdpdGggZm9ybWFsIG5vdGVzL21pbnV0ZXMgbWFpbnRhaW5lZCBpbiBlYWNoIFdH IGRhdGEgdHJhY2tlciB0b29sLCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgc3RpY2sgdG8gc2luZ2xlIHNvdXJjZSBvZiB0 cnV0aCBwcmluY2lwbGUgYW5kIHRydXN0IHB1Ymxpc2hlZCBtaW51dGVzIHZlcmlmaWVkIGJ5IFdH IGNoYWlycy4NCg== From nobody Thu Sep 16 21:21:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC903A1C75; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:16:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xLZ47IjcCMpX; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 971403A1C70; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml745-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.226]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4H9gYM4JkKz67bGn; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:13:27 +0800 (CST) Received: from dggeml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.142) by fraeml745-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.226) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:15:56 +0200 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.152) by dggeml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:15:55 +0800 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) by dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.008; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:15:55 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Brian E Carpenter , Henk Birkholz , Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival Thread-Index: AdereobGCmUYmZlNTriGcv6ttZe/1g== Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:15:55 +0000 Message-ID: <424dea8d0f064391b74bbf568fc99758@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:16:06 -0000 LS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0K5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBXR0NoYWlycyBbbWFpbHRvOndnY2hh aXJzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIOS7o+ihqCBCcmlhbiBFIENhcnBlbnRlcg0K5Y+R6YCB5pe2 6Ze0OiAyMDIx5bm0OeaciDE35pelIDY6MTYNCuaUtuS7tuS6ujogSGVuayBCaXJraG9seiA8aGVu ay5iaXJraG9sekBzaXQuZnJhdW5ob2Zlci5kZT47IE1pY2hhZWwgUmljaGFyZHNvbiA8bWNyK2ll dGZAc2FuZGVsbWFuLmNhPjsgQ2Fyc3RlbiBCb3JtYW5uIDxjYWJvQHR6aS5vcmc+OyBXb3JraW5n IENoYWlycyA8d2djaGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+OyBJRVRGIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gbGlzdCA8aWV0ZkBp ZXRmLm9yZz47IHRvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3MgPHRvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3NAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQrkuLvpopg6 IFJlOiBbVG9vbHMtZGlzY3Vzc10gQ29udGVudCBhdCBub3Rlcy5pZXRmLm9yZyBpcyBub3QgYXJj aGl2YWwNCg0KT24gMTctU2VwLTIxIDA5OjE0LCBIZW5rIEJpcmtob2x6IHdyb3RlOg0KPiBNaW51 dGVzIGFyZSBub3QgdGhlIG9ubHkgbm90ZXMgdGFrZW4gYXQgbm90ZXMuaWV0Zi5vcmcuIEkgd291 bGQgc3RvcCANCj4gdXNpbmcgaXQsIGlmIHRoaW5ncyB3b3VsZCBzaW1wbHkgZGlzYXBwZWFyLCBv YnZpb3VzbHkuIEhvdyBpcyB0aGlzIGEgDQo+IGdvb2QgaWRlYT8NCg0KSGVuaywgSSBtYXkgd2Vs bCBiZSBvbGQtZmFzaGlvbmVkLCBidXQgd2hlbiBJIHdhbnQgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRvIGJlIGtlcHQs IEkga2VlcCBpdDogc2F2ZSBpdCBvbiBteSBkaXNrLCBhbmQgbWFrZSBzdXJlIGl0J3MgaW4gYSBk aXJlY3RvcnkgdGhhdCBnZXRzIGJhY2tlZCB1cCByb3V0aW5lbHkuDQoNCkFueWJvZHkgd2hvIHVz ZWQgZ2VvY2l0aWVzLmNvbSBrbm93cyB3aHkuDQoNCihJJ20gYmlhc2VkIG9uIHRoaXMgcXVlc3Rp b24uIEluIGFib3V0IDE5OTMgSSB0cmllZCB0byBwZXJzdWFkZSBUaW0gQmVybmVycy1MZWUgdG8g bWFrZSBhbiBleHBpcnkgZGF0ZSBvYmxpZ2F0b3J5IGZvciBldmVyeSBIVE1MIHBhZ2UuDQpJIHN0 aWxsIHRoaW5rIGhlIHdhcyB3cm9uZyB0byByZWZ1c2UuKQ0KDQpbUWluXSBDcmVhdGUgZGF0ZSBp cyBtb3JlIHVzZWZ1bCB0aGFuIGV4cGlyeSBkYXRlIHdoZW4geW91IHJlYWQgc29tZSBibG9nIGFu ZCB0cmFjZSB0aGUgaGlzdG9yeSBvZiBpZGVhIGluIHRoZSBIVE1MIHBhZ2UuIDotKQ0KDQpJdCdz IGFsc28gaW1wb3J0YW50IHRvIHNwZWNpZnkgdGhpcyBmcm9tIHRoZSBzdGFydC4gV2UgcHJvYmFi bHkgZG9uJ3Qgd2FudCByb3VnaCBub3RlcyB0byBiZWNvbWUgcGFydCBvZiB0aGUgcHVibGljIHJl Y29yZCBvZiBzdGFuZGFyZHMgYWN0aXZpdGllcywgYW5kIHN1YmplY3QgdG8gc3VicG9lbmEuDQoN CiAgICBCcmlhbg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IE9uIDE2LjA5LjIxIDIzOjA5LCBCcmlhbiBFIENhcnBlbnRl ciB3cm90ZToNCj4+IE9uIDE3LVNlcC0yMSAwNzoyMiwgTWljaGFlbCBSaWNoYXJkc29uIHdyb3Rl Og0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gQ2Fyc3RlbiBCb3JtYW5uIDxjYWJvQHR6aS5vcmc+IHdyb3RlOg0KPj4+ICAg ICAgPj4gT24gMTYuIFNlcCAyMDIxLCBhdCAwOTo0NiwgTWFyayBOb3R0aW5naGFtIDxtbm90QG1u b3QubmV0PiB3cm90ZToNCj4+PiAgICAgID4+DQo+Pj4gICAgICA+PiBPciwganVzdCBhdXRvbWF0 aWNhbGx5IGRlbGV0ZSBub3RlcyAzMCBkYXlzIGFmdGVyIGNyZWF0aW9uLg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gICAg ICA+IChBZ2FpbiwgSSBkb27igJl0IGtub3cgd2hldGhlciB0aGlzIHdhcyBhIHNlcmlvdXMgcHJv cG9zYWwuDQo+PiAgIEnigJlsbCB0cmVhdA0KPj4+ICAgICAgPiBpcyBhcyBzdWNoIGZvciB0aGUg cHVycG9zZSBvZiB0aGlzIG1lc3NhZ2UuKQ0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gV2VsbCwgSSdtIHNlcmlvdXMuDQo+ Pj4gSSB0aGluayAzMCBkYXlzIG1pZ2h0IGJlIHdheSB0b28gbG9uZy4NCj4+Pg0KPj4+IFdHIGFu ZCBkZXNpZ24gdGVhbSBsZWFkZXJzIHNob3VsZCBrbm93IHRvIGRvd25sb2FkIG1pbnV0ZXMgYXQg dGhlIA0KPj4+IGVuZA0Kb2YgdGhlDQo+Pj4gc2Vzc2lvbi4gIEl0J3Mgbm90IGhhcmQuDQo+Pj4g QnV0LCBpbiBvcmRlciB0byB0cmFpbiB0aGF0LCB0aGUgY29udGVudHMgbmVlZHMgdG8gZGlzYXBw ZWFyIHdpdGhpbiANCj4+PiB0aGUNCj4+IGRheSwNCj4+PiBhbmQgdGhlcmUgd2lsbCBiZSBzb21l IGNyeWluZy4gICBTb21lIFdHIHNlc3Npb24gbWludXRlcyB3aWxsIGdvIGF3YXkuDQo+Pg0KPj4g T25lIGRheSBpcyB0b28gc2hvcnQ7IGJhY2sgaW4gdGhlIGdvb2Qgb2xkIGRheXMsIHdoZW4gbW9z dCBvZiB1cyANCj4+IHN1ZmZlcmVkIGpldCBsYWcgYWZ0ZXIgZWFjaCBtZWV0aW5nLCBhIHdlZWsg dG8gY2FwdHVyZSB0aGUgbWludXRlcyANCj4+IGFuZCBjb3B5LWVkaXQgdGhlbSB3YXMgaGFyZGx5 IGVub3VnaC4gQnV0IEkgZG8gYWdyZWUsIHRoaXMgaXMgYSBtYWpvciANCj4+IGR1dHkgb2YgV0cg Y2hhaXJzIG9yIHNlY3JldGFyaWVzLCBhbmQgbmVlZHMgdG8gYmUgZG9uZSBwcm9tcHRseS4NCj4+ DQo+PiBJIHdvdWxkbid0IGNhbGwgaXQgbm90ZXMuaWV0Zi5vcmcuIEknZCBjYWxsIGl0IHRlbXAu aWV0Zi5vcmcuIE9yIGF0IA0KPj4gbGVhc3QsIHB1dCBldmVyeXRoaW5nIGluIG5vdGVzLmlldGYu b3JnL3RlbXAvIGFuZCBtb3ZlIGl0IHRvIA0KPj4gbm90ZXMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvcmVjeWNsZS8gYWZ0 ZXIgMzAgZGF5cyBhbmQgdGhlbiB0byAvZGV2L251bGwgYWZ0ZXIgDQo+PiBhbm90aGVyIDMwIGRh eXMuIFNvbWV0aGluZyBsaWtlIHRoYXQsIGFueXdheSwgZGVwZW5kaW5nIG9uIGhvdyBpdCB3b3Vs ZCBpbnRlZ3JhdGUgd2l0aCBIZWRnZURvYy4NCj4+DQo+PiAgICAgQnJpYW4NCj4+Pg0KPj4+ICAg ICAgPiBDb2xsZWN0aW5nIG5vdGVzIGluIG91ciBvd24gc2VydmljZSAoYXMgb3Bwb3NlZCB0byBo YWNrbWQuaW8gb3IgR29vZ2xlDQo+Pj4gICAgICA+IGRvY3MpIGdpdmVzIHVzIG1vcmUgY29udHJv bC4gIEFub3RoZXIgYmVuZWZpdCBvZiBoYXZpbmcgYSBjb21tb24NCj4+PiAgICAgID4gc2Vydmlj ZSBpcyB0aGF0LCBhZnRlciBhIHdoaWxlLCBldmVyeWJvZHkga25vd3MgaG93IHRvIHVzZSBpdCAN Cj4+PiBhbmQNCj4+IHdlDQo+Pj4gICAgICA+IGNhbiBpbnRlZ3JhdGUgaXQgaW50byBvdGhlciB0 b29scy4NCj4+Pg0KPj4+IEFncmVlZC4NCj4+Pg0KPj4+DQo+Pg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Sep 16 23:01:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E68D83A24A0 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:01:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id usjadRVhktt9 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C6783A249F for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4H9jvK285Yz67M1h; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:59:09 +0800 (CST) Received: from dggeml752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.151) by fraeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:01:25 +0200 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.152) by dggeml752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:01:20 +0800 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) by dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.008; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:01:19 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , "Benjamin Kaduk" , Donald Eastlake , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: slow tools reaction Thread-Index: AderiV03T1fzeK3iSICUOrTudWK5CA== Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:01:19 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:01:34 -0000 SmVmZnJleToNCi0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCuWPkeS7tuS6ujogV0dDaGFpcnMgW21h aWx0bzp3Z2NoYWlycy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSDku6PooaggSmVmZnJleSAoWmhhb2h1aSkg WmhhbmcNCuWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAyMeW5tDnmnIgxNuaXpSAyMDozMg0K5pS25Lu25Lq6OiBC ZW5qYW1pbiBLYWR1ayA8a2FkdWtAbWl0LmVkdT47IERvbmFsZCBFYXN0bGFrZSA8ZDNlM2UzQGdt YWlsLmNvbT47IHRvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3NAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCuS4u+mimDogUkU6IHNsb3cgdG9vbHMg cmVhY3Rpb24NCg0KWyBtb3ZpbmcgdG8gdG9vbHMtZGlzY3VzcyBdDQoNCkhpIEJlbiwNCg0KDQpU aGFua3MgZm9yIHBvaW50aW5nIG91dCB0aGUgZGVjb21taXNzaW9uaW5nLiBTb3JyeSBmb3Igbm90 IG5vdGljaW5nIHRoZSBhbm5vdW5jZW1lbnQgYmVmb3JlLCBhbmQgYXBwYXJlbnRseSB0aGVyZSBh cmUgcXVpdGUgc29tZSBwZW9wbGUgbGlrZSBtZSDwn5iKDQoNCkFueXdheSwgSSB1c2UgdGhlIGRp ZmYvaWRuaXQvc3BlbGwveG1sMnJmYyBhbmQgZHJhZnQgc3VibWlzc2lvbiB0b29scyBhdCB0b29s cy5pZXRmLm9yZyBhbmQgdGhleSd2ZSBiZWVuIHNsb3cgcmVjZW50bHkuIEFmdGVyIGxlYXJuaW5n IHRoYXQgdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcgaXMgcmVwbGFjZWQgYnkgdGhlIGRhdGF0cmFja2VyLCBJIHdl bnQgdG8gZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcuIFRoZXJlIHRoZSBvbmx5IGxpbmtzIHJlbGF0ZWQg dG8gdGhlIHRvb2xzIHRoYXQgSSB1c2UgYXJlICJEcmFmdCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uIiB1bmRlciB0aGUg IkRvY3VtZW50cyIgdGFiLCBhbmQgIklFVEYgVG9vbHMiIGF0IHRoZSBsb3dlciByaWdodCBib3R0 b20uDQoNCltRaW5dOiBJIGhhdmUgYmVlbiByZWFsaXplZCB0aGF0IGlkbml0IHRvb2xzIGhhcyBi ZWVuIHNsb3cgcmVjZW50bHkgaW4gdGhlIGRhdGF0cmFja2VyLiANCkplZmYsIGRpZmYgYW5kIGlk bml0ZXMgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGludGVncmF0ZWQgaW50byBkYXRhc3RyYWNrZXIgdG9vbHMgaWYgeW91 IGNsaWNrIG9uIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCB5b3UgYXJlIGxvb2tpbmcgZm9yIGluIHRoZSBkYXRhIHRy YWNrZXIgd2VicGFnZS4NCllvdSB3aWxsIHNlZSBkaWZmIHRvb2wgaW4gdGhlIGhpc3RvcnkgdGFi LCBpZG5pdHMgdG9vbCBpcyBpbiB0aGUgbWlkZGxlIG9mIHN0YXR1cyB0YWIgZm9yIGVhY2ggZG9j dW1lbnQgaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi14eHh4DQpT cGVsbCB0b29sIHVuZm9ydHVuYXRlbHkgSSBoYXZlbid0IHNlZW4gaXQgaW50ZWdyYXRlZCBpbnRv IGRhdGF0cmFja2VyIHRvb2wuIEl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGdyZWF0IHRvIGdldCBhY2Nlc3MgdG8gdGhl c2UgdG9vbHMgaW4gYSBzaW5nbGUgcGxhY2UuDQoNCkhvd2V2ZXIsICJJRVRGIFRvb2xzIiBzaW1w bHkgcG9pbnRzIHRvICJ0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZyIsIGFuZCAiRHJhZnQgU3VibWlzc2lvbiIgbGlu ayBpbiAidG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmciIGlzIHRoZSBzYW1lIGFzICJEcmFmdCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uIiB1 bmRlciB0aGUgIkRvY3VtZW50cyIgdGFiIChhbGwgcG9pbnQgdG8gaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tl ci5pZXRmLm9yZy9zdWJtaXQvKS4NCg0KU28gSSBhbSBzdGlsbCBhIGJpdCBsb3N0IC0gYXBwcmVj aWF0ZSBpZiBzb21lb25lIGNvdWxkIHNoYXJlIGEgbGluayB0byB0aGUgYW5ub3VuY2VtZW50IHRo YXQgSSBtaXNzZWQuDQoNClRoYW5rcy4NCkplZmZyZXkNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdl LS0tLS0NCkZyb206IEJlbmphbWluIEthZHVrIDxrYWR1a0BtaXQuZWR1Pg0KU2VudDogVGh1cnNk YXksIFNlcHRlbWJlciAxNiwgMjAyMSAxMjoxNCBBTQ0KVG86IERvbmFsZCBFYXN0bGFrZSA8ZDNl M2UzQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4NCkNjOiB3Z2NoYWlyc0BpZXRmLm9yZzsgTWFua2FtYW5hIE1pc2hyYSAo bWFua2FtaXMpIDxtYW5rYW1pc0BjaXNjby5jb20+OyBKZWZmcmV5IChaaGFvaHVpKSBaaGFuZyA8 enpoYW5nQGp1bmlwZXIubmV0Pg0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IHNsb3cgdG9vbHMgcmVhY3Rpb24NCg0K W0V4dGVybmFsIEVtYWlsLiBCZSBjYXV0aW91cyBvZiBjb250ZW50XQ0KDQoNCkkgYXNzdW1lIHRo YXQgZXZlcnlvbmUgaXMgcmVmZXJyaW5nIHRvIHNpdGVzIGhvc3RlZCB1bmRlciB0b29scy5pZXRm Lm9yZywgdGhlIG9sZCBzZXJ2ZXIgdGhhdCBpcyBzbGF0ZWQgZm9yIGRlY29tbWlzaW9uaW5nLg0K SSBoYXZlIHNlZW4gc2xvd25lc3MgYXMgd2VsbCwgYnV0IGl0IGRvZXMgbm90IHJlYWxseSBjb25j ZXJuIG1lIG11Y2ggYmVjYXVzZSBldmVyeXRoaW5nIEkgcmVndWxhcmx5IHVzZSBpcyBhY3R1YWxs eSBvbiB0aGUgZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIsIGFuZCB0aGUgc2xvd25lc3Mgb25seSBjb21lcyBhYm91dCBi ZWNhdXNlIGxpbmtzIChlLmcuLCBmcm9tIGdvb2dsZSkgaGF2ZSBub3QgdXBkYXRlZCB0byBwb2lu dCB0byBkYXRhdHJhY2tlciBkaXJlY3RseSBpbnN0ZWFkIG9mIHRvb2xzLg0KDQpBbHNvLCB0b29s cy1kaXNjdXNzIGlzIHByb2JhYmx5IGEgYmV0dGVyIGxpc3QgYXQgd2hpY2ggdG8gZGlzY3VzcyBh bnkgaXNzdWVzLg0KDQotQmVuDQoNCk9uIFdlZCwgU2VwIDE1LCAyMDIxIGF0IDEwOjEzOjU1UE0g LTA0MDAsIERvbmFsZCBFYXN0bGFrZSB3cm90ZToNCj4gTWUgdG9vLi4uDQo+DQo+IFRoYW5rcywN Cj4gRG9uYWxkDQo+ID09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCj4gIERvbmFsZCBF LiBFYXN0bGFrZSAzcmQgICArMS01MDgtMzMzLTIyNzAgKGNlbGwpDQo+ICAyMzg2IFBhbm9yYW1p YyBDaXJjbGUsIEFwb3BrYSwgRkwgMzI3MDMgVVNBICBkM2UzZTNAZ21haWwuY29tDQo+DQo+IE9u IFdlZCwgU2VwIDE1LCAyMDIxIGF0IDg6NDIgUE0gTWFua2FtYW5hIE1pc2hyYSAobWFua2FtaXMp IA0KPiA8bWFua2FtaXM9NDBjaXNjby5jb21AZG1hcmMuaWV0Zi5vcmc+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiA+DQo+ ID4gWWVzICwgaXTigJlzIGJlZW4gc2xvdyBmb3IgbWUgdG9vIC4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IE1hbmthbWFu YQ0KPiA+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+ID4gRnJvbTogV0dDaGFp cnMgPHdnY2hhaXJzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+IG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBKZWZmcmV5IA0KPiA+ IChaaGFvaHVpKSBaaGFuZyA8enpoYW5nPTQwanVuaXBlci5uZXRAZG1hcmMuaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+ ID4gU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMTUsIDIwMjEgNTozMzozMiBQTQ0KPiA+IFRv OiB3Z2NoYWlyc0BpZXRmLm9yZyA8d2djaGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+ID4gU3ViamVjdDogc2xv dyB0b29scyByZWFjdGlvbg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gSGksDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBJcyBpdCBqdXN0IG1lIG9y IGhhdmUgeW91IGFsc28gbm90aWNlZCB0aGF0IElFVEYgdG9vbHMgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHF1aXRlIHNs b3cgcmVjZW50bHk/DQo+ID4NCj4gPiBUaGFua3MuDQo+ID4gSmVmZnJleQ0KPiA+DQo+ID4gSnVu aXBlciBCdXNpbmVzcyBVc2UgT25seQ0KPiA+DQo+DQoNCkp1bmlwZXIgQnVzaW5lc3MgVXNlIE9u bHkNCg== From nobody Fri Sep 17 01:48:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 917A13A0DFB; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 01:47:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fc1a8WCvfoJB; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 01:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr80101.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.8.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DC8C3A0DF6; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 01:47:52 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=T3kHatGZYFUAp5mubPfTj89D0niBYL4hMx7rB9X5sQvHEKkeOvoUpkqkx3wf2eqtMftYktwIYX9GCP+nlzyPJnShOsF17lyfXnp4q25Atw4oWe5RVmBt6x5b1PWSdrMBOzQ2IySAvJly/qunw1EF0H7i+P2PFwOIopWbiNmv0Wu+0nz0yBRFT7/ivfn/6PHk5j34MgyNvUaq7keuYX1BSmIQv7t+CkviLPGj78vRS2Q/qb/6uMkLqdVrbJkhA0nyNlXpQYvLL4M6AC3BLUhrB4A3OH7HmZCiAZQgTd3eaLHX85enLMtcMIcoUiNyYR/LS3KJrdOEP8MtRIlhAtQT4g== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=VsEsJFuwxF0A7pvUVsvq6UjsUE/AapO3eO/c/3ph6Ms=; b=hPlaIJo+EwxpjZa73TthGudVgKkv8x7s4uZWjw0e8LelH+SpAIAcvDWZJWofpwhfX5SIli8TkcCMQ9FLRiduw4Hx8o1eb65xl9HzD5MvcGxaWHnrmIlXluzLhfL2aUwoBGEfM9PztedFa3eWzlxaQm8q2JCzeuk9M+HD5GrnYak5W1Aq6E9WOgm4OJtQgo5WILII7njfZITwVYfR5DV06kNEuTgWortwKTH5hFK55AGz0conkcUwviGgzjtLSLNEC9ACCIIFIVBnzi7MT8obLnovoiS+vghyLL7jwWcSY/uEmvZUDJxj6KNUCoYL7xgsuRW+Ix6bMl7244j2DfjWiw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=btconnect.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=btconnect.com; dkim=pass header.d=btconnect.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-btconnect-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=VsEsJFuwxF0A7pvUVsvq6UjsUE/AapO3eO/c/3ph6Ms=; b=cjkdEKZTBLBxi8GFYAQhh8GZObPIokcI5XGzMNF2o/EKDil/O/wFUJwFyIxcEN2/qV3w019Zlx7FReJuN1OUlLrWsg/BEjAqz3BK54i2fLsCoH1OfHMafJoTyR7tAQ1AAY40kHwk9fJ47MAlH+aaCEW3QPHdnHD5rf5akPy1Yxs= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; Received: from VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8) by VI1PR0701MB6750.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:17e::11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4544.9; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:47:46 +0000 Received: from VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::da:1b00:ebb3:ffd9]) by VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::da:1b00:ebb3:ffd9%2]) with mapi id 15.20.4544.006; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:47:46 +0000 To: Mark Nottingham , Carsten Bormann References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> Cc: Michael Richardson , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss , Working Chairs From: tom petch Message-ID: <6144562A.7050403@btconnect.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:47:38 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 In-Reply-To: <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: LO2P265CA0440.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:e::20) To VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [192.168.1.65] (86.133.70.78) by LO2P265CA0440.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:e::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.20.4523.16 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:47:45 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 9e2ace74-f575-4745-8dfa-08d979b7d249 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1PR0701MB6750: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:8882; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(136003)(396003)(366004)(346002)(376002)(39860400002)(16576012)(6666004)(38350700002)(110136005)(86362001)(316002)(66556008)(38100700002)(8676002)(956004)(4326008)(33656002)(6486002)(52116002)(66476007)(26005)(87266011)(2616005)(36756003)(186003)(966005)(5660300002)(54906003)(478600001)(83380400001)(53546011)(2906002)(8936002)(66946007); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?dmgvK0prSFEzTXdEclEyVEFKRjdpeXZic0dxUFNlVnBKY2ZMZzZJaEl3SDdz?= =?utf-8?B?N0NJMUxsK1VNNm1wS3h3TDZmUkM2TGhXbjcweHBTYXFUMEM2YUZCM0xTc0E3?= =?utf-8?B?c3dxcGdNS3pxZ1hpT0tQQ3dpai9RNVVNTldzSW8vbThTUEl3dzdpT1A1Vjhp?= =?utf-8?B?NVdZWHNnbU4xbzN3dEtBT0FrK2lOcXdzSHh2NmJiVEtjTFhxcGhQRGcxdGsw?= =?utf-8?B?WkZ5SzRqQ3JSSmVTUjFlbEVPNGZGZDgzSDJwZnlpR0s4cHFyckdKcTNTbmZt?= =?utf-8?B?U1ZDaFNGKzlIUUl5WGZ2V0hoVSt0UE1mbWxsRDBRUDh2d0xvNFBMc1EvZDJE?= =?utf-8?B?R3FKQ0J6dmN2RkJaV2pzaTYvNkk2dVV1ODBmbDZyaWd6Y0NFbHN5b01LLys4?= =?utf-8?B?b0RlSG5LVFBPT2FZRm5MVDlOanNSZTJmVXcwbjFIeHBlNEhSRlhSNVliOGlT?= =?utf-8?B?YjNDUkhWTDMzdnRnZlh4MVRPMGNpb0RIWFJGMFdaNUJBdWZjamx1MmVGdWlH?= =?utf-8?B?Q2NqSHNObGxJc01uOEFlcWF4MHNONFNQUGJ0a0VqSi9XdGJOT3dURHMyd0xP?= =?utf-8?B?eGVZU1Q0aXdSTlZrUmJZU0FON2Nmd0N1SU5QdVpqQVMzRFpXaXk3dW5zZHRp?= =?utf-8?B?WXY3MFhXR0V3b1NPRlg2bWZCZlB6ZlU1ZWtVWVkyK3BKREZyV1hnSTNiNVRv?= =?utf-8?B?ZHEzMDdPZTMwQWYwVllLcEhCUTg3RkU4a2RzS3BFbGF5djBmTWloZ25lcUtE?= =?utf-8?B?NVNWQ3RFOVVVL1N4aS9YZHh0WjZxMDBSM3lYWDg1cEN1elYrUjEvMGZOTHRX?= =?utf-8?B?ZFlBL3NJSHBjeXhDSm4xQmtLcGViQlo2MVkveXVLN1pSdmp4bVQ2S3NsbHV1?= =?utf-8?B?THRMdmlLdXBzeTJYeGdySzBWK3NSY2k0UWxrTkU1QkpDRUJLdlVVRFgxSXNo?= =?utf-8?B?dVF0UFFxZDlnSnV2NVNsb0hldjB5bFM2RFBISi9hdDcxc09oZk9uWERDTTZu?= =?utf-8?B?NkJpUHRsa2plV0xWWVBOOUZ1UnF0U3M0dk1EazNWOUVyR3ZFbG9YWDYxUWFh?= =?utf-8?B?NkEvdkhoY0lkQ3lYZmpWZTJNalZscHptdXlDSzhLRk05THNaRVpic3dqeHFi?= =?utf-8?B?bmV5NWYzOUNzblhoNW10Ym16NzdxRGJ5TXN5MkFmK0hRemJRbkwzT2Frb2dq?= =?utf-8?B?RnY4RkhkNGdkdm41NExUbDRsTDUweURrekJ2RDhBaGdBS3lzQmMzTXVBN25h?= =?utf-8?B?UmgyQitiVVJPdmxKemp5eWhLMDB1VXUzaXRJRTdNcG5qUE5tOGpVbGxqVzJZ?= =?utf-8?B?dXpOR2NwamZnaUF4VkN3aUtmOHFjMzgyMWVDRFJFQlFzUnkrRVM5T0U0UGxz?= =?utf-8?B?cjdZMWdnd1VyZUt4YW5aRlZqVzRodEZxY3RRSk11dUpWYkJ6UGRLN3BhWmJZ?= =?utf-8?B?M0krWnVoeDNFNDlTUFZ2TVhYbmMxZDAza0paOW0vOTVhL3BUMGlCdDJ6cmYx?= =?utf-8?B?TVh6ejUyRXM5M0pXQ2pCcXp0SVMrTDVRL3R0d0lnQmhSbk9ueElPVmtqYWtm?= =?utf-8?B?KzlMOHVyeE9rbWNCNkZhbG51YW42WmpmK1ZCUWNtSVQ1d3FBUmx4M3RFSklE?= =?utf-8?B?RlBxam9mR0FjOFdSS3k5TEpEQ1llRU11cGVSQnh1RmNMRXErVllDNGtnL3lP?= =?utf-8?B?WnpaTXFIY0dVOWlYaHo3b3FkK240WFF3OVBQbXhjU0ZBcG15WVFVb1NseDBB?= =?utf-8?Q?7gKjrVpW09sbzTpmZcqZqMp/ogHsFiT48GLg3nA?= X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9e2ace74-f575-4745-8dfa-08d979b7d249 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2021 08:47:46.7550 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: v9IPOq/YaacJjtx2JXg4ghI02o3G0XV0+r8kwIWlWeLU1velYsnDspZVG2iq1JGmBit01NhcQvmi5dmVuOQzfA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0701MB6750 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:48:00 -0000 On 17/09/2021 03:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Carsten, > > It has been an informal tool for some time. I (along with others, apparently) am concerned about it becoming a formal dependency by stealth, consuming resources and causing confusion. Mark That is the way the IETF works; I do not think that it is a good way but it is the way. If I want to know what resources are available, as in supported, maintained, told when they will be withdrawn and such like, I know of nowhere to go. I think this is the reason why a survey earlier this year showed great variation in how I-D are produced; there is nowhere to go to find out. I have been pointed at, or stumbled across, ways of getting work done in the IETF and get upset when they disappear with or without warning. I had never heard of notes.ietf.org prior to this thread. If I had, I might have found it useful and become dependent on it:-( Go look at tools.ietf.org with the eyes of someone who has been told the way to do it in the IETF it to write an I-D. First thing you see is RFC Dependency checker followed by Bibtex Citation Converter ... We do a really bad job of encouraging people to write I-D. Tom Petch > If you have use cases for it, that's great -- bring them up and we can have a discussion about whether they should be supported (with the corresponding dedication of resources). You haven't done that, though - you seem to be assuming that because you've used an informal tool in a particular way in the past, that will automatically be supported on an ongoing basis. > > In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions in a disparaging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF process. I understand you may be frustrated, but I don't think doing so is constructive. > > Cheers, > > >> On 17 Sep 2021, at 12:15 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> On 2021-09-17, at 01:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> >>> 2) If folks want to use the tools for something else, great. But that does not create an obligation on the IETF to make the tool behave differently. If there is some other use case that is needed, either use some other tool, or convince the IETF that we need a tool to support the use case you have. >> >> Joel, >> >> You are falling prey to an availability bias here. >> >> You have only ever been using that tool for minutes, so you think the tool needs to be changed to more closely follow some random thinking about minutes. >> I don’t care that much whether the IETF destroys its draft minutes, because I do know to back up those drafts that I’ll likely need. >> >> But leading this discussion in complete disregard for the other uses of this tool is exactly the kind of “I don’t understand this, so let’s break it†thinking that has recently become so characteristic of IETF process discussions. >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > . > From nobody Fri Sep 17 06:07:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C911C3A18BC for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:07:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=Krxlp0Oy; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=CniIXmhq Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YEwlpNzBa9Ma for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AB723A18BB for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108158.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18H8EL1N025810; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:07:26 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=T/c67VCpuChvzWrlnXI/dI4ZMffxsHuTyHNW/OCvp5A=; b=Krxlp0OyJ7t5nxnGLUcppxxXzOWXpfxREJ54h+LIEL/JR2FNeABbeWXNh5H02wnxTuP3 HXZBEd/7sg63BfV1bgPbT6Z85BF5KSRYihQktnvsZHaywTiOly4VmI8Pqff9WuOCl0eF +ziL/3qXyWIT8Dp53vQzh8u2W82XmWd3WouJo3XRRr9DzTS8nk7nIJGfIvxstzdu0cHu IhirmkuTX/fSSi3QxzPmRbty4uLDr8+EwfTH8hiihQkIqoQCqg/pUHWo6Simo8+U8wKV VI5A3rkyLRGCS+g9XurX/7AoeAaG54bQ5jnBv2b+fya85LjhzWHkAhib/Qlnq9uA/sV+ 1g== Received: from nam02-dm3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm3nam07lp2045.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.56.45]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3b4qb60eep-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:07:25 -0700 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=a9l8tjemJpmgX1C3pfdJq7ln6U9/JtPoKOO3cyDQRqkfqrCeZmyMuKS1rFYT5Ts7dzkrgMsy5at9JhiP968yNfPiCYEcI5OWfnVW8jWo+57li8ifwZvLwmJppZup1tYsGOpkRZWDx5Oe8DD52CKVv3rovuqt+i1JtZzPDhePYAqxkw4ilI+K9SNf2kMSpoYd6BhK01aahHWaCw+SjI9tNKS7ILKbe+wzUIpdK8Ifl4ySSqLCYJIo9fTpy1KYXUSydgBH/LgFL56qIGx2DOXw9n49SBiC1G5qhUB/n5KQdqHSMF0X4Q40o9AvZMakCLzocjX9mYhLFDhYi72GXdR5sg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=T/c67VCpuChvzWrlnXI/dI4ZMffxsHuTyHNW/OCvp5A=; b=kDdFrxqPf3DYuJXVBVA32UJQikHG7zLmkoOM7LDG5zpbQ3a5x7eF9XpaUkG4KDaF0IrBjKXddVowSVMD+NC6Gm+fFncKs2UffdRORrXQ7iWEk2+sobnm+XzwQ3dlxqmRbg/qllVhBBwZAlFRc57Ko3rLwS4xdIZTAr+uXwa60P4W7drNq72xMltY9phDT9pgLDxT9p0ubJwfg+l/d6DmAykeIctqYfq3mXsHRnab+9SyGwl8TLHg9DUxx0PrIWgdga0i/zY+c6BFpvv3WiOlXzxykQhVxXgUwpgGgvTypCwvDhNfhI0anFTsEqyvj0Ho+sNTAZg4zFMmka1GUb+/pQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=juniper.net; dkim=pass header.d=juniper.net; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=T/c67VCpuChvzWrlnXI/dI4ZMffxsHuTyHNW/OCvp5A=; b=CniIXmhqZ9mrLqshLxn3Ew2fuSCrZ8tD88JscJ8LLOrmUuWX7gQUTZ5hCbwUUOAFFp3wHjFTxBtJD9SAKCJjUaywQUrVEnE14ypzrOAE+Z+A8aerqBBdRkodAivgJy/W3Xm7uleUf0I6f6UvKbnKdqzZlRdWJQIEF0hk879a2Ow= Received: from BL0PR05MB5652.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:6a::19) by MN2PR05MB7120.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:18a::11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4523.14; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:07:23 +0000 Received: from BL0PR05MB5652.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d938:9f8d:5254:55e]) by BL0PR05MB5652.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d938:9f8d:5254:55e%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4523.016; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:07:23 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Qin Wu , Benjamin Kaduk , Donald Eastlake , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: slow tools reaction Thread-Index: AderiV03T1fzeK3iSICUOrTudWK5CAAOxFgQ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:07:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.6.100.41 dlp-reaction: no-action msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=45adaefc-7cd6-4812-922f-5cd4f98436e3; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ContentBits=0; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2021-09-17T13:03:39Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; authentication-results: huawei.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;huawei.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 091fc614-31fa-4f4a-a36b-08d979dc16d4 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR05MB7120: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BL0PR05MB5652.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(26005)(110136005)(8936002)(71200400001)(40140700001)(52536014)(186003)(76116006)(86362001)(9686003)(5660300002)(316002)(53546011)(33656002)(122000001)(3480700007)(508600001)(7116003)(66946007)(66446008)(6506007)(966005)(66556008)(66476007)(64756008)(2906002)(55016002)(83380400001)(7696005)(38070700005)(38100700002)(8676002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?OExBbmlPcHZpVFBMM0VncEpYUG1YeWhaQUw1a2xxUGltNFR4QldXYUJBWW1O?= =?utf-8?B?MDZyajhBTVc2VTVmYUlDZVJrWU1aejZEanFJQ2RLMDBad0k5dkNyTHErWWE5?= =?utf-8?B?TExkMnpxVjR2VTZhNy8zWjkvTzgxYVlobktDTDJSSmdRakVoZWhDaENiNUpX?= =?utf-8?B?UGFjQ01SOE1XNmYwRHgyZmoxWXRHNnd5MCtiZUJ6V3NnMHVxU1JxZ3RIQjlk?= =?utf-8?B?TWdkTk1ycnpVMVpZSWtxTjJhY2t0em1jREZVVWl0UFZGRjkrZDhFSWxNbHk0?= =?utf-8?B?dk5sVG52SVlWMmZHbGJ4b2ZsdEJwODJzeWlzbHB0S0lLTkV3NE5wTGpFWHNu?= =?utf-8?B?VjZyNUlGby95QTdsdWdaM2JQellXVmM5blZKNW5RZW5wWUtMdU93NzhPR29M?= =?utf-8?B?U2hCaUN3dUYrWnRBb1F4NmlYbGcvT3NQM3R0bVpzWm9XTEJ3Rllsb0RTRVhw?= =?utf-8?B?dnV0R2xoODRQSzQyRnFWTjU0WE1SQnE3OFVZdzd4cG9qYVh2UEN3dXQ1clcv?= =?utf-8?B?cmo4TG1Bc1E1UWNCTDZWYlBSemJyTys2MXFTSDF6aUZOTGpvZTAvaC9HcFd4?= =?utf-8?B?enpZM3BzM2p1cUUzQmo2T2YvYjNoNllzUytqaGNMWDM4NEt5MXFlUndyckpt?= =?utf-8?B?VGNSTXFLZUtwK3lETlFxR0FLWHhqc0dJVnFnVHZncE9HUXNaLzFkTWJUQzBa?= =?utf-8?B?UGtWd1FqTlFQZXA3eXk5bGJ3NElFQXcyWXJENjI2aW52MVJDUHRlNzFWc2Nt?= =?utf-8?B?UjNaZ25BYkJrZlkvVUdwQ0hmVWpHR3F0U3pJb0xDblk2T0p5bUgxVnJ0K3A3?= =?utf-8?B?Q0dyY1Y2cEIzMEFIZGF1bERNaHVHSytVQWQxQzcwaEhrQzdacVJPOThnYUNs?= =?utf-8?B?VHQ5Z2ZJbFRzNGpOSjBvWDNuTVU3dWFHUS95RTdPUGFHRmJ3UnR6ZWV6NmMv?= =?utf-8?B?TlBGZ0hBMEg1VjI4dG51UnJVemdidkplckhrbFpORW1OWHY0VElMWmhDWE9J?= =?utf-8?B?Ty9HS2RaeVViMFFlT3FudHBNb0N2MkdRVmtmWlNKbjI0M09jeVdNN1llSjJv?= =?utf-8?B?TmJxTStKOVZJUUNLQXVPRDVwTmpOTy9YL1E3anpiS1RpRllSWXg1WTF3WVB3?= =?utf-8?B?aFpzbWlWNDZMN1VrVTNwdkdoeFY4dW5zbytHTHFlcnBPeUdvYnBYdnhWVERp?= =?utf-8?B?WFROS3drSXpsWUNiOWZQcmV3UkRvWFU4MWpCMzF1Znppc05aM3NLSURjVUdP?= =?utf-8?B?eC9VVGtvTnViNDB3WTBjcnNvOTg0NWRSWDFob2Ryb091NlRJeFdMNWpXTWpJ?= =?utf-8?B?RVlVa2xIMG5rOTEzbWQyT09GeGF6Y3dmc0VGWnNYSEVMUk5KdFBhMjBjYjhH?= =?utf-8?B?Z2lwYjZGc1dENTVSRG9LaWhJQjhjdlhxT25NKzdQR0YweVMvdTBSTCtXa3pM?= =?utf-8?B?ZEd2RWdBYlo2RHdEZElVdVVscEFHcVlXaVRrMXdvb1NRcnFMdVFKdTNZK0hk?= =?utf-8?B?SGkrZWVwQ1NNM3N2UWw1elRmaVg1RWF4U1A2bWw3b0FoWEpaQ0R5VkZqSURV?= =?utf-8?B?SkVYaHp0QmJYby9SdlJHNnlxbWJxQ29mRFBueTByVnRjOW5Pc0hsTlQyc1lz?= =?utf-8?B?eXk1VEpiYmNCMkp0SmtQNFAyelZ6MHgvQTZ4NzVseFQ5ZW4vUVJYUEVRK1hm?= =?utf-8?B?Zk9DUFl3TXAzZkJuMWJlRUs1YTRMTFFBdUg1Y0hPa1lnNi8wQzNuWkd4cGx2?= =?utf-8?Q?g9v9tEFqnfqFJFHzehuIYuxsAu3ltbonCN6+6q5?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL0PR05MB5652.namprd05.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 091fc614-31fa-4f4a-a36b-08d979dc16d4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Sep 2021 13:07:23.1176 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: NR55RLMfqfkKRg9qM3woIiyy0RAuu6r5sutEZA6v4C+XupB+KfCt5da9YQGQE92G9VHGzCI1zXxhKwZK+dQbRg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR05MB7120 X-Proofpoint-GUID: k9uFmDFSjc3xwP9ojt6RhPyyMXCUpatt X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: k9uFmDFSjc3xwP9ojt6RhPyyMXCUpatt X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-17_05,2021-09-17_02,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109170083 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:07:39 -0000 SGkgUWluLA0KDQpXaGlsZSB0aG9zZSB0b29scyBhcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGZvciBwdWJsaXNoZWQg ZHJhZnRzLCBzb21ldGltZXMgd2UgbmVlZCB0byB1c2UgdGhlbSBmb3Igc29tZSB1bnB1Ymxpc2hl ZCBvbmVzIHlldC4gRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHdlIG1heSB3YW50IHRvIGRvIGEgc3BlbGwgY2hlY2ss IG9yIGRvIGEgZGlmZiBvZiBuZXcgKHlldCB0byBiZSBwdWJsaXNoZWQpIHJldmlzaW9uIGFnYWlu c3QgYW4gZXhpc3RpbmcgcmV2aXNpb24uIFRoZXJlZm9yZSwgYSBzZXBhcmF0ZSB0b29scyBwYWdl IGxpa2UgY3VycmVudCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZyB3b3VsZCBiZSBuaWNlLg0KDQpUaGFua3MuDQpK ZWZmcmV5DQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBRaW4gV3UgPGJpbGwu d3VAaHVhd2VpLmNvbT4NClNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDE3LCAyMDIxIDI6MDEgQU0N ClRvOiBKZWZmcmV5IChaaGFvaHVpKSBaaGFuZyA8enpoYW5nQGp1bmlwZXIubmV0PjsgQmVuamFt aW4gS2FkdWsgPGthZHVrQG1pdC5lZHU+OyBEb25hbGQgRWFzdGxha2UgPGQzZTNlM0BnbWFpbC5j b20+OyB0b29scy1kaXNjdXNzQGlldGYub3JnDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSRTogc2xvdyB0b29scyByZWFj dGlvbg0KDQpbRXh0ZXJuYWwgRW1haWwuIEJlIGNhdXRpb3VzIG9mIGNvbnRlbnRdDQoNCg0KSmVm ZnJleToNCi0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCuWPkeS7tuS6ujogV0dDaGFpcnMgW21haWx0 bzp3Z2NoYWlycy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSDku6PooaggSmVmZnJleSAoWmhhb2h1aSkgWmhh bmcNCuWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAyMeW5tDnmnIgxNuaXpSAyMDozMg0K5pS25Lu25Lq6OiBCZW5q YW1pbiBLYWR1ayA8a2FkdWtAbWl0LmVkdT47IERvbmFsZCBFYXN0bGFrZSA8ZDNlM2UzQGdtYWls LmNvbT47IHRvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3NAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCuS4u+mimDogUkU6IHNsb3cgdG9vbHMgcmVh Y3Rpb24NCg0KWyBtb3ZpbmcgdG8gdG9vbHMtZGlzY3VzcyBdDQoNCkhpIEJlbiwNCg0KDQpUaGFu a3MgZm9yIHBvaW50aW5nIG91dCB0aGUgZGVjb21taXNzaW9uaW5nLiBTb3JyeSBmb3Igbm90IG5v dGljaW5nIHRoZSBhbm5vdW5jZW1lbnQgYmVmb3JlLCBhbmQgYXBwYXJlbnRseSB0aGVyZSBhcmUg cXVpdGUgc29tZSBwZW9wbGUgbGlrZSBtZSDwn5iKDQoNCkFueXdheSwgSSB1c2UgdGhlIGRpZmYv aWRuaXQvc3BlbGwveG1sMnJmYyBhbmQgZHJhZnQgc3VibWlzc2lvbiB0b29scyBhdCB0b29scy5p ZXRmLm9yZyBhbmQgdGhleSd2ZSBiZWVuIHNsb3cgcmVjZW50bHkuIEFmdGVyIGxlYXJuaW5nIHRo YXQgdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcgaXMgcmVwbGFjZWQgYnkgdGhlIGRhdGF0cmFja2VyLCBJIHdlbnQg dG8gZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcuIFRoZXJlIHRoZSBvbmx5IGxpbmtzIHJlbGF0ZWQgdG8g dGhlIHRvb2xzIHRoYXQgSSB1c2UgYXJlICJEcmFmdCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uIiB1bmRlciB0aGUgIkRv Y3VtZW50cyIgdGFiLCBhbmQgIklFVEYgVG9vbHMiIGF0IHRoZSBsb3dlciByaWdodCBib3R0b20u DQoNCltRaW5dOiBJIGhhdmUgYmVlbiByZWFsaXplZCB0aGF0IGlkbml0IHRvb2xzIGhhcyBiZWVu IHNsb3cgcmVjZW50bHkgaW4gdGhlIGRhdGF0cmFja2VyLg0KSmVmZiwgZGlmZiBhbmQgaWRuaXRl cyBoYXZlIGJlZW4gaW50ZWdyYXRlZCBpbnRvIGRhdGFzdHJhY2tlciB0b29scyBpZiB5b3UgY2xp Y2sgb24gdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IHlvdSBhcmUgbG9va2luZyBmb3IgaW4gdGhlIGRhdGEgdHJhY2tl ciB3ZWJwYWdlLg0KWW91IHdpbGwgc2VlIGRpZmYgdG9vbCBpbiB0aGUgaGlzdG9yeSB0YWIsIGlk bml0cyB0b29sIGlzIGluIHRoZSBtaWRkbGUgb2Ygc3RhdHVzIHRhYiBmb3IgZWFjaCBkb2N1bWVu dCBodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UuY29tL3YzL19faHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9y Zy9kb2MvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi14eHh4X187ISFORXQ2eU1hTy1nayFWTmsydHFLVGpyYmFrRjMtNTg5 R0U0NV9hRVV4OU96bHN3VktiaDY3YVgxMVNxU0dSV1NFTk1rWmxTVlRSRW9jJA0KU3BlbGwgdG9v bCB1bmZvcnR1bmF0ZWx5IEkgaGF2ZW4ndCBzZWVuIGl0IGludGVncmF0ZWQgaW50byBkYXRhdHJh Y2tlciB0b29sLiBJdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBncmVhdCB0byBnZXQgYWNjZXNzIHRvIHRoZXNlIHRvb2xz IGluIGEgc2luZ2xlIHBsYWNlLg0KDQpIb3dldmVyLCAiSUVURiBUb29scyIgc2ltcGx5IHBvaW50 cyB0byAidG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmciLCBhbmQgIkRyYWZ0IFN1Ym1pc3Npb24iIGxpbmsgaW4gInRv b2xzLmlldGYub3JnIiBpcyB0aGUgc2FtZSBhcyAiRHJhZnQgU3VibWlzc2lvbiIgdW5kZXIgdGhl ICJEb2N1bWVudHMiIHRhYiAoYWxsIHBvaW50IHRvIGh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5jb20vdjMv X19odHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL3N1Ym1pdC9fXzshIU5FdDZ5TWFPLWdrIVZO azJ0cUtUanJiYWtGMy01ODlHRTQ1X2FFVXg5T3psc3dWS2JoNjdhWDExU3FTR1JXU0VOTWtabFk3 TzliQzkkICkuDQoNClNvIEkgYW0gc3RpbGwgYSBiaXQgbG9zdCAtIGFwcHJlY2lhdGUgaWYgc29t ZW9uZSBjb3VsZCBzaGFyZSBhIGxpbmsgdG8gdGhlIGFubm91bmNlbWVudCB0aGF0IEkgbWlzc2Vk Lg0KDQpUaGFua3MuDQpKZWZmcmV5DQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9t OiBCZW5qYW1pbiBLYWR1ayA8a2FkdWtAbWl0LmVkdT4NClNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1i ZXIgMTYsIDIwMjEgMTI6MTQgQU0NClRvOiBEb25hbGQgRWFzdGxha2UgPGQzZTNlM0BnbWFpbC5j b20+DQpDYzogd2djaGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IE1hbmthbWFuYSBNaXNocmEgKG1hbmthbWlzKSA8 bWFua2FtaXNAY2lzY28uY29tPjsgSmVmZnJleSAoWmhhb2h1aSkgWmhhbmcgPHp6aGFuZ0BqdW5p cGVyLm5ldD4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBzbG93IHRvb2xzIHJlYWN0aW9uDQoNCltFeHRlcm5hbCBF bWFpbC4gQmUgY2F1dGlvdXMgb2YgY29udGVudF0NCg0KDQpJIGFzc3VtZSB0aGF0IGV2ZXJ5b25l IGlzIHJlZmVycmluZyB0byBzaXRlcyBob3N0ZWQgdW5kZXIgdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcsIHRoZSBv bGQgc2VydmVyIHRoYXQgaXMgc2xhdGVkIGZvciBkZWNvbW1pc2lvbmluZy4NCkkgaGF2ZSBzZWVu IHNsb3duZXNzIGFzIHdlbGwsIGJ1dCBpdCBkb2VzIG5vdCByZWFsbHkgY29uY2VybiBtZSBtdWNo IGJlY2F1c2UgZXZlcnl0aGluZyBJIHJlZ3VsYXJseSB1c2UgaXMgYWN0dWFsbHkgb24gdGhlIGRh dGF0cmFja2VyLCBhbmQgdGhlIHNsb3duZXNzIG9ubHkgY29tZXMgYWJvdXQgYmVjYXVzZSBsaW5r cyAoZS5nLiwgZnJvbSBnb29nbGUpIGhhdmUgbm90IHVwZGF0ZWQgdG8gcG9pbnQgdG8gZGF0YXRy YWNrZXIgZGlyZWN0bHkgaW5zdGVhZCBvZiB0b29scy4NCg0KQWxzbywgdG9vbHMtZGlzY3VzcyBp cyBwcm9iYWJseSBhIGJldHRlciBsaXN0IGF0IHdoaWNoIHRvIGRpc2N1c3MgYW55IGlzc3Vlcy4N Cg0KLUJlbg0KDQpPbiBXZWQsIFNlcCAxNSwgMjAyMSBhdCAxMDoxMzo1NVBNIC0wNDAwLCBEb25h bGQgRWFzdGxha2Ugd3JvdGU6DQo+IE1lIHRvby4uLg0KPg0KPiBUaGFua3MsDQo+IERvbmFsZA0K PiA9PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09DQo+ICBEb25hbGQgRS4gRWFzdGxha2Ug M3JkICAgKzEtNTA4LTMzMy0yMjcwIChjZWxsKQ0KPiAgMjM4NiBQYW5vcmFtaWMgQ2lyY2xlLCBB cG9wa2EsIEZMIDMyNzAzIFVTQSAgZDNlM2UzQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ0KPg0KPiBPbiBXZWQsIFNlcCAx NSwgMjAyMSBhdCA4OjQyIFBNIE1hbmthbWFuYSBNaXNocmEgKG1hbmthbWlzKQ0KPiA8bWFua2Ft aXM9NDBjaXNjby5jb21AZG1hcmMuaWV0Zi5vcmc+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gWWVzICwgaXTi gJlzIGJlZW4gc2xvdyBmb3IgbWUgdG9vIC4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IE1hbmthbWFuYQ0KPiA+IF9fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+ID4gRnJvbTogV0dDaGFpcnMgPHdnY2hhaXJz LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+IG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBKZWZmcmV5DQo+ID4gKFpoYW9odWkpIFpo YW5nIDx6emhhbmc9NDBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldEBkbWFyYy5pZXRmLm9yZz4NCj4gPiBTZW50OiBXZWRu ZXNkYXksIFNlcHRlbWJlciAxNSwgMjAyMSA1OjMzOjMyIFBNDQo+ID4gVG86IHdnY2hhaXJzQGll dGYub3JnIDx3Z2NoYWlyc0BpZXRmLm9yZz4NCj4gPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBzbG93IHRvb2xzIHJlYWN0 aW9uDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBIaSwNCj4gPg0KPiA+IElzIGl0IGp1c3QgbWUgb3IgaGF2ZSB5b3UgYWxz byBub3RpY2VkIHRoYXQgSUVURiB0b29scyBoYXZlIGJlZW4gcXVpdGUgc2xvdyByZWNlbnRseT8N Cj4gPg0KPiA+IFRoYW5rcy4NCj4gPiBKZWZmcmV5DQo+ID4NCj4gPiBKdW5pcGVyIEJ1c2luZXNz IFVzZSBPbmx5DQo+ID4NCj4NCg0KSnVuaXBlciBCdXNpbmVzcyBVc2UgT25seQ0KDQpKdW5pcGVy IEJ1c2luZXNzIFVzZSBPbmx5DQo= From nobody Fri Sep 17 06:28:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8DF73A1970; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:28:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1DraaDsOxpGi; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 356C03A195D; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18HDScVc037254 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:28:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631885319; bh=1WRCASPiqRkMQVH5EppAZLExNRA7OsefRzK1hjVNKHU=; h=To:Cc:References:Reply-To:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=nu8WtQHGq/C+h/zlKIqFdPTYmD5FkreIWRkXsvpQqlYaV5wCkEbv3nxmD9/Z/8bG7 MIR7Z/OXMfXvzyM+aihrjsHKUWbKaB3+EwNuEDE+fSgzRAoKcduZTHx72ajMrPquou S+TbqBwq0YYlnYXDfkKW5kr6uzy7Dm+u/UhaJFJw= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Carsten Bormann , Mark Nottingham Cc: Michael Richardson , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss , Working Chairs References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> Reply-To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:28:32 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:28:46 -0000 (Setting Reply-To once again - lets please reduce the crossposting and=20 move the whole conversation onto tools-discuss@) I'm going to take up part of Carsten's argument now, attempting to wear=20 no hats. I personally don't want a "delete n days after creation" type of policy. = I could accept (and probably support) a "delete after n days of=20 inactivity" policy where n was large - at least two meeting-cycles=20 large, if not larger. This tool is being used for other things than working group minuting. There are teams that I am on that have used notes as places to develop=20 things like tools implementation plans - the notes served a longer than=20 a few (even 30) days purpose until the effort finished. I can see the=20 same being useful for design teams, where the real artifacts that come=20 out are emails to the list and drafts. The expectation, in my opinion,=20 is that these should be expected to be there for awhile, but not _forever= _. What I don't think is ok is carrying the need to redirect these urls a=20 few years from now when the technology under them has moved on. URLs=20 into this service shouldn't be placed in RFCs, giving us the burden to=20 preserve the content and its location forever. Putting my tools team hat back on - hedgedoc does not (to my knowledge)=20 support this autodelete concept at this time. We could make a feature=20 request whether or not it ends up being something we decide to use. But=20 should we decide to have such a delete policy, it would be some time=20 before it is implemented. RjS On 9/16/21 9:47 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions in a disp= araging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF process. I understand y= ou may be frustrated, but I don't think doing so is constructive. > Mark, > > sometimes it is absolutely necessary to express how a discourse makes o= ne feel. > > Yes, this discussion is frustrating and unlikely to lead anywhere good,= and I have to choose my battles. > > I made my points, and I will shut up now. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > From nobody Fri Sep 17 06:32:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 838443A1988 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:32:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cYIy2kQpMPEN for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B804F3A1975 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H9vyF22TQz2xKJ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 15:32:21 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 15:32:20 +0200 Cc: Mark Nottingham , Michael Richardson X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 653578340.808957-d412f678ce88034a5df9dcd34e36d580 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:32:32 -0000 > On 2021-09-17, at 15:28, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > (Setting Reply-To once again - lets please reduce the crossposting and = move the whole conversation onto tools-discuss@) (Reply-to doesn=E2=80=99t act on wide replies. So I did this manually.) > I'm going to take up part of Carsten's argument now, attempting to = wear no hats. I promised to shut up, but for the avoidance of doubt, I'm completely in = line with everything that Robert said. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > I personally don't want a "delete n days after creation" type of = policy. I could accept (and probably support) a "delete after n days of = inactivity" policy where n was large - at least two meeting-cycles = large, if not larger. >=20 > This tool is being used for other things than working group minuting. >=20 > There are teams that I am on that have used notes as places to develop = things like tools implementation plans - the notes served a longer than = a few (even 30) days purpose until the effort finished. I can see the = same being useful for design teams, where the real artifacts that come = out are emails to the list and drafts. The expectation, in my opinion, = is that these should be expected to be there for awhile, but not = _forever_. >=20 > What I don't think is ok is carrying the need to redirect these urls a = few years from now when the technology under them has moved on. URLs = into this service shouldn't be placed in RFCs, giving us the burden to = preserve the content and its location forever. >=20 > Putting my tools team hat back on - hedgedoc does not (to my = knowledge) support this autodelete concept at this time. We could make a = feature request whether or not it ends up being something we decide to = use. But should we decide to have such a delete policy, it would be some = time before it is implemented. >=20 > RjS >=20 >=20 > On 9/16/21 9:47 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions in a = disparaging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF process. I = understand you may be frustrated, but I don't think doing so is = constructive. >> Mark, >>=20 >> sometimes it is absolutely necessary to express how a discourse makes = one feel. >>=20 >> Yes, this discussion is frustrating and unlikely to lead anywhere = good, and I have to choose my battles. >>=20 >> I made my points, and I will shut up now. >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Sep 17 06:51:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33E53A1A35; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:51:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XVDQgul3QwLO; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00A3A3A1A36; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mREGm-000P9F-53; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:51:12 -0400 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:51:06 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: tools-discuss , Carsten Bormann , Mark Nottingham cc: Michael Richardson , IETF discussion list Message-ID: <00B01D3BCB06DD313F89256A@PSB> In-Reply-To: <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:51:21 -0000 Robert, (Still copying ietf@ because I think these issues are important to the whole community, not just those with the time and energy to track tools-discuss) I don't know the notes facility well enough to ask this question precisely --I qualify as one of those who had barely heard of it before these threads started -- but it seems to me that you've made a strong case for per-thread timeouts/ delete limits. Some things (like minutes) should disappear quickly for reasons others have given; others (like design team efforts) may need "after inactivity" or other much longer timeouts. So it sounds as if any feature requests should allow for per-thread/ per-activity timeouts, not just a global setting or that we should start distinguishing, RSN, among different types of = notes. FWIW, I note that, while I-Ds supposedly expire after six months, things have evolved to the point that we still say that but old ones are essentially treated as archival with no special effort need to get to them. That is an extreme example of the bottom of the slippery slope I think others have been concerned about. best, john --On Friday, September 17, 2021 08:28 -0500 Robert Sparks wrote: > (Setting Reply-To once again - lets please reduce the > crossposting and move the whole conversation onto > tools-discuss@) >=20 > I'm going to take up part of Carsten's argument now, > attempting to wear no hats. >=20 > I personally don't want a "delete n days after creation" type > of policy. I could accept (and probably support) a "delete > after n days of inactivity" policy where n was large - at > least two meeting-cycles large, if not larger. >=20 > This tool is being used for other things than working group > minuting. >=20 > There are teams that I am on that have used notes as places to > develop things like tools implementation plans - the notes > served a longer than a few (even 30) days purpose until the > effort finished. I can see the same being useful for design > teams, where the real artifacts that come out are emails to > the list and drafts. The expectation, in my opinion, is that > these should be expected to be there for awhile, but not > _forever_. >=20 > What I don't think is ok is carrying the need to redirect > these urls a few years from now when the technology under them > has moved on. URLs into this service shouldn't be placed in > RFCs, giving us the burden to preserve the content and its > location forever. >=20 > Putting my tools team hat back on - hedgedoc does not (to my > knowledge) support this autodelete concept at this time. We > could make a feature request whether or not it ends up being > something we decide to use. But should we decide to have such > a delete policy, it would be some time before it is > implemented. >=20 > RjS >=20 >=20 > On 9/16/21 9:47 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions >>> in a disparaging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF >>> process. I understand you may be frustrated, but I don't >>> think doing so is constructive. >> Mark, >>=20 >> sometimes it is absolutely necessary to express how a >> discourse makes one feel. >>=20 >> Yes, this discussion is frustrating and unlikely to lead >> anywhere good, and I have to choose my battles. >>=20 >> I made my points, and I will shut up now. >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Sep 17 07:21:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9503A1B59 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 07:21:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fraunhofer.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dknJVdYXzNM6 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 07:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-edgeS23.fraunhofer.de (mail-edges23.fraunhofer.de [153.97.7.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 941DE3A1B4A for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 07:21:15 -0700 (PDT) IronPort-SDR: kmbIc7zwahxOCnGtZxXh2pnzCeDSE50uTR9eskEWyMLH/4O0XDt0xGmlXeCpMqUSERdlQXnadm IapBrppdaBGQ== IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3AvXJXRR1Bw0Q5RRPssmDPS1BlVkEcU/3cPwMJ5?= =?us-ascii?q?Nwgkb0dOqig/pG3OkvZ6L0tiVLSRozU5rpCjPaeqKHvX2EMoPPj+HAPeZBBT?= =?us-ascii?q?VkJ3MMRmQFzAcOZBwv8NvG5JyA/Fd5JAVli+XzzOENJGcH4MlvVpHD67TMbF?= =?us-ascii?q?hjlcwRvIeGgAY/Oycqt3v20+5rdbh8OiDfuCY4=3D?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2EmAwCdo0Rh/xoHYZlaHAEBAQEBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?BARIBAQQEAQFAgVmBU1F+gUKESINJAQGFOYgIA5pcglMDVAsBAQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?IAS0SAgQBAQMDhHcCNYITASU4EwECBAEBARIBAQYBAQEBAQYEAgKBIIVoDYN?= =?us-ascii?q?TgQgBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEFAkFHDDE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAgESEQ8BBQgBATgECwkCGAICJgICMiUGDQgBAR6CTwGCVQMOIAIDlgu?= =?us-ascii?q?PNAGBOgKKH3qBMYEBgggBAQYEBIJRgjkYWoFaCQkBgQYqgn+LBScQgVVEgTw?= =?us-ascii?q?MA4JEMD6CYgKBNYNCgmSIJURFByE/N2UCNTuSAymrMy0HggOBK4ExBguIfpQ?= =?us-ascii?q?KBhQsg2aBSIofhhAGkSKHD69VF4RQAgQCBAUCDgEBBoF4gX5NJE+CaQlIGQ+?= =?us-ascii?q?OIFCDIoUUhUxyOAIGAQoBAQMJhUmKLwEB?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2EmAwCdo0Rh/xoHYZlaHAEBAQEBAQcBARIBAQQEAQFAg?= =?us-ascii?q?VmBU1F+gUKESINJAQGFOYgIA5pcglMDVAsBAQEBAQEBAQEIAS0SAgQBAQMDh?= =?us-ascii?q?HcCNYITASU4EwECBAEBARIBAQYBAQEBAQYEAgKBIIVoDYNTgQgBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEFAkFHDDEBAQEBAgESEQ8BB?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBATgECwkCGAICJgICMiUGDQgBAR6CTwGCVQMOIAIDlguPNAGBOgKKH3qBM?= =?us-ascii?q?YEBgggBAQYEBIJRgjkYWoFaCQkBgQYqgn+LBScQgVVEgTwMA4JEMD6CYgKBN?= =?us-ascii?q?YNCgmSIJURFByE/N2UCNTuSAymrMy0HggOBK4ExBguIfpQKBhQsg2aBSIofh?= =?us-ascii?q?hAGkSKHD69VF4RQAgQCBAUCDgEBBoF4gX5NJE+CaQlIGQ+OIFCDIoUUhUxyO?= =?us-ascii?q?AIGAQoBAQMJhUmKLwEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.85,301,1624312800"; d="scan'208";a="31862656" Received: from mail-mtas26.fraunhofer.de ([153.97.7.26]) by mail-edgeS23.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Sep 2021 16:21:11 +0200 IronPort-SDR: Wc/Gp8okZ7AXmlNCoN32IKWNBoU0lTJYM0KB4jpJCYDryRgpcn6ASl/qNJKZ+P/1dlNSb8ZdJR Zr5qXZoXh5G8KZsJ3VDIf9l5l5He7671I= IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3A/oQgThy3GS0e84zXCzM9ngc9DxPP8531MxIbr?= =?us-ascii?q?J09hOEGfqei+sHkO0rSrbVogUTSVIrWo/RDl6LNsq/mVGBBhPTJsH0LfJFWE?= =?us-ascii?q?RNQj8IQkl8hDdKLT0rhI62iYykzBs8XUlhj8jmyOlRUH8CrYVrUrzWy4DceF?= =?us-ascii?q?w+5OxByI7HuG5KUgd6+yuay/JPeeUNEiWnVXA=3D=3D?= IronPort-Data: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3AA0+VzqkrtrpQMJHAcpjYHxLo5gz0JkRdPkR7X?= =?us-ascii?q?Q2eYbSJt1+Wr1GztxIYXDuCaP3bNzCkLo0jPY629k0Cu56BmtJhGwFt+X03R?= =?us-ascii?q?FtH+JHPbTi7wugcHM8ywvUuxyuL1u1GAjUZBMxrHHLauDm3Nb3t8St12a2SH?= =?us-ascii?q?+WuE+/YfC5rTBJiSCAvhAgll+Ng2txkht2wAgWsv9LuopSDaQH/hGMuajoZu?= =?us-ascii?q?/CZtRdinPXuozdG7FYwUvB8ugOMnXciCp9Cd7q6KGH1Q9UPE+PjH7TDwbi18?= =?us-ascii?q?3n35RAoDt/5wL/3fldTHezJPBTIhGBfRq6ihRZPvGo+3/9jZvYbbE5WjRSPn?= =?us-ascii?q?sxwkYkc68bvFF1xZqCVwbYTSRhVFS16LJZqwr6fLCjtq9GXwm3Hb2DonadkA?= =?us-ascii?q?nY2CotEqOx5NmdDqK4DIzcXYxHf3O+7ze7pSuRogch/fsDnMJlF5yNlyjvYC?= =?us-ascii?q?ftgTIDIQ+PE/9ZF2jc3iM1UW/rTPpJLZT1qZRXGQhtOJlZOVMNgxrj13CGnf?= =?us-ascii?q?m0Ksk+RqIo2/3PXkF573o/rPYeHYdeNX8hUwhuVqz6U5Wj/GR1GZtWTxSDeq?= =?us-ascii?q?CD127SKzHy+Ad1MUePisOBvxlbVyHYaFRsWUlW2u7+1hxfmCd5YLkUV/Asor?= =?us-ascii?q?LQzrRD6EIOiAkfg+HPU7AQBX9dwEvEh7F3fwKTj5QvEVHMPSSRMaYB7ucI7L?= =?us-ascii?q?dDwOoRlpPu0Q2wy2FGpYSjFrO7M/GrtYXJ9wVIqPEfocyNVu7EPn6lu1nojf?= =?us-ascii?q?v47eEKEpoWd9QPYmlhmnwBm71kntvPn4o3glbzxb5JAkbCSJuI9zl2/smtId?= =?us-ascii?q?WqVbqb9D2CjwQCzAfqtsO+kole9UHgsw6By7cgLCpuMkCHLTfUGHPen/f+YN?= =?us-ascii?q?j3bj1N1WZUsn9iv0yf+JsYBv3cnexkvbJxslTzBOCc/vStR6ZlQenGrd6x3Z?= =?us-ascii?q?IajI98r0e7uD934UPDTYNdUJJR8HOOC1HgzPhLMhTC2zyDAlollYMvKK5vyZ?= =?us-ascii?q?ZoAMox7yz2yXKIR0KQg2zsl7WLeWZ69yA6ouYdyzlb9pawtaQbVK7Fmqfrb/?= =?us-ascii?q?kCLqZBBMo2BjRtFWfD4Yi7Z/JRVIV1iEJTyPriuw+Q/SwJJClM+cI35N8Ls/?= =?us-ascii?q?A=3D=3D?= IronPort-HdrOrdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3AcmibkKC9HWeqbA/lHeg8sceALOsnbusQ8z?= =?us-ascii?q?AXPh9KJiC9I/b1qynxppkmPH/P6Qr5K0tQ5OxoX5PwPU80lKQFm7X5WI3NYO?= =?us-ascii?q?CIghrQEGgP1/qE/9SkIVyEygc/79YQT0EdMqyXMbESt6+Ti2PZYrVQs+Vvsp?= =?us-ascii?q?rY4ds2p00dMz2CAJsQjTuRZDzrd3GeCDM2fabQQ/Gnl7V6TnebCDkqR/X+Ik?= =?us-ascii?q?NAc/nIptXNmp6jSRkaByQ/4A3LqT+z8rb1HzWRwx9bClp0sPgf2FmAtza8yr?= =?us-ascii?q?Sosvm9xBOZ/2jP765OkN+k7tdYHsSDhuUcNz2poAe1Y4ZKXaGEoVkO0a2SwW?= =?us-ascii?q?dvtOOJjwYrPsx15X+UVmapoSH10w2l6zoq42+K8y7RvVLT5ejCAB4qActIgo?= =?us-ascii?q?xUNjHD7VA7gd162KVXm0qEqpt+F3r77WTAzumNcysvulu/oHIkn+JWpWdYS5?= =?us-ascii?q?EiZLhYqpFa1F9JEa0HADnx5OkcYahT5fnnlbRrmG6hHjXkVjEF+q3pYp1zJG?= =?us-ascii?q?bJfqE6gL3X79AM90oJiHfxrack7wc9HJFUcegM2w2LCNUvqFh0dL5iUUtKPp?= =?us-ascii?q?Z2fSKGMB2+ffvyChPnHb3GLtBNB5ufke+83F0KjNvaD6DgiqFCwaj8bA=3D?= =?us-ascii?q?=3D?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A3BgAGpERh/z6wYZlaHAEBAQEBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?BARIBAQQEAQFACYFQgVNRB0wrWSZDhEeDSQEBhTmFZIIkAzgBmiOCUwNUCwE?= =?us-ascii?q?DAQEBAQEIAQQpEQECBAEBhH0CNYIQAiY4EwECBAEBARIBAQUBAQECAQYEgRE?= =?us-ascii?q?ThWgNhkIBAQEBAgESEQ8BBQgBARQkBAsJAhgCAiYCAjIHHgYNCAEBHoJPAYJ?= =?us-ascii?q?VAw4gAgOWCY80AYE6AoofeoExgQGCCAEBBgQEglGCORhagVoJCQGBBiqCf4s?= =?us-ascii?q?FN4FVRIE8DAOCRDA+gmICgTWDQoJkiCVERQchPzdlAjU7kgMpqzMtB4IDgSu?= =?us-ascii?q?BMQYLiH6UCgYULINmgUiKH4YQBpEihw+vVReEUAIEAgQFAg4BAQaBeCSBWU0?= =?us-ascii?q?kT4JpCUgZD44gUIMihRSFTEExOAIGAQoBAQMJhUcBAYovAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.85,301,1624312800"; d="scan'208";a="153442837" Received: from 153-97-176-62.vm.c.fraunhofer.de (HELO mobile.exch.fraunhofer.de) ([153.97.176.62]) by mail-mtaS26.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Sep 2021 16:20:55 +0200 Received: from XCH-HYBRID-01.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.8.57) by XCH-HYBRID-02.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.8.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.858.15; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 16:20:55 +0200 Received: from EUR05-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (10.225.8.37) by XCH-HYBRID-01.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.8.57) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.858.15 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 16:20:55 +0200 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=XPkycEo+SL+vpyZ9N6jEdCbVjhyZ9X4kzBEaa6m76hEVqan2tSodz9woFj3i4noVTBtU9r+2FPa2pYkOJFJ/tTtYxjTZCJkAhDu999Heap0oY2fHnnxmmI4eLE+kIrqfv8EbZzrc6rKPy8JOrf9TSGD4ZrenrN7/Y//2TdvsYgOQyENgA1/RM61K2QYema7C8g9KboSspI58bb4ao6oFR1Y+MjoMNsxlLxvbr6qtiAGeiSO+Psn16w9aJkjV7zx2VDwKhjfG4GYpb4No42XV6XCn/3ahP0BMMqGibY3tINGWrtVMOExztqKSxdnRYtRCF3E4dEX3KMN1TxIoQOSf7A== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=e+GW8tzDsnMduhTpoCWv/HyZMdGLAVDnk7SIkMYGMPs=; b=iGpyYfhZiEV9zt50pPikOC5Zb9vYpLxyNaswS7NWP4m3JHvxhauwJy8C5VnZg4AvQPZ5tvGCsLm9c7zQID/HWOaqDLRTNFrOW0TXyuJ/0E+PCJBaNDbS2pi2Z5qYUua8tnpqbcBJFAXjfMUXaFQ5mk2ulgaLdUN8lg2Z24fZbh1jUMn9AnyrVwQJwz3B5i/yn2A3CcR48BMT9Tv0ldIwO2P9Z36WYBxGQTBlQbxoSbh4nO1vLfDRoRiUkBTGN0ei8pe1VP0tdw23epulezwElAnbbxxWnqGMvbJsDWMIeR5dqIy58UmSATppRXHQjkipIJ6Cvbnnf3nNZVgLoRLodQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=sit.fraunhofer.de; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=sit.fraunhofer.de; dkim=pass header.d=sit.fraunhofer.de; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fraunhofer.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-fraunhofer-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=e+GW8tzDsnMduhTpoCWv/HyZMdGLAVDnk7SIkMYGMPs=; b=pEW9Fq+wIZrps9WDdzDe7gsQeyolxcW9HQjZe6WZV35hqoSzglyJyljjsxiKMyPw+lPqrpOlpEAvDLlQLkDVujAha9bv9lRbI4gCixFlcbDL8gdKtRFv2/o8g0FjCL2DGKNM06XQ4EaVuVrZ0jxeVd1WGe55o2ezSKo3H0Gpr14= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=sit.fraunhofer.de; Received: from DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:276::9) by DBBP194MB1099.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:1ee::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4523.14; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:20:54 +0000 Received: from DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::8c2b:841f:ce13:50ac]) by DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::8c2b:841f:ce13:50ac%5]) with mapi id 15.20.4500.018; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:20:54 +0000 To: tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 16:20:52 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 In-Reply-To: <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: FR0P281CA0084.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:d10:1e::23) To DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:276::9) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.124.9) by FR0P281CA0084.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:d10:1e::23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4544.6 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:20:54 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 349162a6-d1ac-41ae-4dd7-08d979e65c1f X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DBBP194MB1099: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(376002)(396003)(136003)(366004)(346002)(39860400002)(2906002)(53546011)(186003)(6486002)(66476007)(66556008)(16576012)(83380400001)(31686004)(478600001)(52116002)(38100700002)(38350700002)(2616005)(31696002)(956004)(5660300002)(26005)(6916009)(66946007)(316002)(8676002)(44832011)(86362001)(8936002)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?TXltRW4yc3RBS1ZZTzFITnZBeGhMYk1aQzc2aVgvOGgvTTdRY0RXSnJwalJi?= =?utf-8?B?ZXRNTmhYaVhsOUovZ3cvc291TjdISmdiYUM4QWl3NVBGOWlBekhYUUZWWDlu?= =?utf-8?B?WU5vRE83V1lQek41TXZBd3pvUE5TaEJpU1BKVVNzc2F6TUhnY25EYkUzV2R5?= =?utf-8?B?RUZZdzlISzFuajlvUHpyQUhiN2Y0Y3RDYjFLYTJzdEl5dTlUN2lkOEhsczY0?= =?utf-8?B?SjNuUnFHd3RsQWljVVZtdWlXdFdRMTVUWWJzcE4vRW5mcFdQenJTVE9GTXpF?= =?utf-8?B?NlFqcFM1R1hEMnFzRHVnQzRWSU44YmhoQm8yYTRzaWJmTGErM3d5RTc1bWFC?= =?utf-8?B?RS9mSHR6NVpnMFQ3bFlJYWFEcnVwY1lEVGFJNWlLQ0tjK0tOVXJQQ0pFNmpR?= =?utf-8?B?blpkSHJGK3RNWEdCTnp1V2hPMVdqS0ttUW52c1VqTDlyRmtWV1l5elVibjFa?= =?utf-8?B?cVV4VEhBaFIrWGxpamw5c3UyZnhvK2JBT0xjaXRNdFNEcVJXdkNQZk94T3ZK?= =?utf-8?B?T290RXI5SXlEbXdDWWk5bmdlSStWMERZdmlidmsxQ21jd1RmVnluODJIVWd6?= =?utf-8?B?R0tiZEtRVDJDczZ2Z1ZDVTVad2FrdEpXek5TaHQ0VzJCaVRvWXAwbXRuU3cv?= =?utf-8?B?SWZkVjZ4TzhLdjRQU0pZK1R1ckVzSTdmVTROT3dQVmN4K2pBaUVyMnp0Rlht?= =?utf-8?B?dU5uT0dMN0cyMHFhNlJiZDAxcHc1V0pGSVh1UmYrenNpNG4yamlva1VBbDZL?= =?utf-8?B?VmxTS2RGYTdjeXBnK20rVlBPbjgwblhNZ29BdXU2K0JnQjk3ZXlmdVJVMHVE?= =?utf-8?B?Mzc1bDdnRVIyVHdhSXBTUUJNekxKcFdQaXNFaERQeG05aXp4TkpTOW81V2tt?= =?utf-8?B?TjJveVpRSFJ1cXR5akpmMVNPNFdHcmNPL0p4QWFSaERDTW9waXJjZHVRSlJn?= =?utf-8?B?Z0lPWGl2WHFldXdVMWpzSWExZVZiMXJkZ2x2RVhQTk9XL1JJNy9ZaXIyS1pW?= =?utf-8?B?NVA0TVBFR0lldktWMmtzdkM5NEcyalFLenpNYXRNQ3JaZk8vYi8yOU0rd1Qv?= =?utf-8?B?QVNjZTFnK0U4dHg2enV5Q1hTcnVnMURkMW1pZUNPWkhLQ2Y3RmlOTDRiY2hk?= =?utf-8?B?bWFLb3ZTS0UxR0lxem82aFo3T3Y1cDNSQ0gyelhTbzllVUVLS3JSMlpBTDNt?= =?utf-8?B?WTZBY2JCNms2S3dOVUJac1NtU2l4bzh5SERCbjludGZETERpaXhucFN5dmVV?= =?utf-8?B?aGw4cTVNZmQ5RnZZVnRqYmhXT2V4SnZHN1NwbGZuVmxsV3NhOTdVeWVCa3Q1?= =?utf-8?B?SGozbWVJL1Y1Y21DK3BSM1dWdkZzakxCK1BMZWw3TS9ZU0Rtc2dqRmFNc2F4?= =?utf-8?B?MEltNGNBNDVtMlJ3eFhwSGdPaHVBa3ZySklpbFpONlEzRWtWUHNyYkI5OG9G?= =?utf-8?B?K05BdnMyUGwycG8yQzRDbkdTMm9zVE4xZ1dIZVFhZS9DbXorSVB1Q1BIWU9a?= =?utf-8?B?RnRDVzhuR3UvbUI4aDhWWk1EOThXSjBBMFZCbHhKSis5VGpySG9xTFd3TTJJ?= =?utf-8?B?eE1KZG96djJFUk9EaVUzZXVscXgwclJCT0ZrNXAxQUliYXZFYlVRMlkrT2Nr?= =?utf-8?B?R3NnYUZQZ3pFM3dQT1Zud1VZWFRPQTdwN3F4RWd6SXdTeDJmdTNheEloNDNK?= =?utf-8?B?S2RlVE8yRlAya1h1aTVscldBOVdOYTUxRTVTZWN0MXNYVUE4MDh1Q3BRN2Nx?= =?utf-8?Q?/RTgQ5tqAwoy7tRj3IG4ezw1Pz32QWmU+iCBCO2?= X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 349162a6-d1ac-41ae-4dd7-08d979e65c1f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2021 14:20:54.5854 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: f930300c-c97d-4019-be03-add650a171c4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: d7xfDwF8rO+/DxRtCuazp6fX7iSVgYvNTsrVY48xKkLdW0iNaUxKLlxbHTIPM5cSt/SDOaJMog3y9+7F5X6pWp2JNyZ1XelT8dYEZCQAEbM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DBBP194MB1099 X-OriginatorOrg: sit.fraunhofer.de Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:21:36 -0000 Hi RjS, using Reply-To now. > The expectation, in my opinion, is that these should be expected to be there for awhile, but not _forever_. I'd go with a more narrower definition and (likely) reinforce the current state: My expectation is that these should be there as long the corresponding tool is maintained, but not _forever_. Implying, I do not expect anyone to "rescue" my notes in case of tool migration. That kind of 'spring cleaning' is okay once in a while. What I do expect is a warning that a tool's maintenance is discontinued. That happened. In consequence, I am absolutely okay with the procedure well as its results. I am having a hard time to relate to what all the fuzz is about, tbh 😅 Viele Grüße, Henk On 17.09.21 15:28, Robert Sparks wrote: > (Setting Reply-To once again - lets please reduce the crossposting and > move the whole conversation onto tools-discuss@) > > I'm going to take up part of Carsten's argument now, attempting to wear > no hats. > > I personally don't want a "delete n days after creation" type of policy. > I could accept (and probably support) a "delete after n days of > inactivity" policy where n was large - at least two meeting-cycles > large, if not larger. > > This tool is being used for other things than working group minuting. > > There are teams that I am on that have used notes as places to develop > things like tools implementation plans - the notes served a longer than > a few (even 30) days purpose until the effort finished. I can see the > same being useful for design teams, where the real artifacts that come > out are emails to the list and drafts. The expectation, in my opinion, > is that these should be expected to be there for awhile, but not _forever_. > > What I don't think is ok is carrying the need to redirect these urls a > few years from now when the technology under them has moved on. URLs > into this service shouldn't be placed in RFCs, giving us the burden to > preserve the content and its location forever. > > Putting my tools team hat back on - hedgedoc does not (to my knowledge) > support this autodelete concept at this time. We could make a feature > request whether or not it ends up being something we decide to use. But > should we decide to have such a delete policy, it would be some time > before it is implemented. > > RjS > > > On 9/16/21 9:47 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions in a >>> disparaging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF process. I >>> understand you may be frustrated, but I don't think doing so is >>> constructive. >> Mark, >> >> sometimes it is absolutely necessary to express how a discourse makes >> one feel. >> >> Yes, this discussion is frustrating and unlikely to lead anywhere >> good, and I have to choose my battles. >> >> I made my points, and I will shut up now. >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> > From nobody Fri Sep 17 13:17:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876323A12B9 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g04fuPoetTfl for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA2103A12B8 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id dw14so7722282pjb.1 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RIrW5BIm7RAMneI6Su+E4CfEPmgvZ8gdB0Cy3rYFSIk=; b=EULC1XtpQaJpkMbnlwnNYp67oyHTPd2CVbURt5RHJ7qn+Cjxyik8qLvy/LYTBCSxqy ITWeoU+f53qtzPv6+AVGMijbxwAnSsMeQB9G0yvv9NxRYTK8SmjXGOchTKAiWqKYSyy4 70PZasI7CvP8tGfP9ZJMkIqGIlcGPNgbVZXi/69Y1kxJA+ho/jkplMSZ1MqnONb/u4qr lXkZtT2BpoHzjhdoqQXv3zQYidgZ1Iq8ohw32r6K8xCRAyyzPcqs5A5vACEkOLFR/ZGa lQVxdBqMl1fy1jDQV6HqTWCRhp7VBACAt5/QfvS/+8fX1+ZaTCWEsDvQw4zhFmCF3Eyw xpew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=RIrW5BIm7RAMneI6Su+E4CfEPmgvZ8gdB0Cy3rYFSIk=; b=b5Vy5cDM//XmkBCHGwxG0mW8ORTgvk8R9JsRDfNJPGxq72K0rVxr4XTPpQSf1u/MDA 5dKGb4RESbTqE+H1gFHTzrw3Izg3pajH+zkQ1Ad7Zcv5A52ARWNacdyg5aK7RjnSeJpR N/FOhCVnMa2fERyp5bLcLx6HW/r5lEQvZVXal+ibovd4R2rrrslBacUb8O/qjqgxDomK lVRqTy/4LQZzNEePULON3dIkNqPvJOx21k99rFZ9XXppadaJxYedBvfiauuks0DoT/Qw aTi0ChqV+Fhs/XlNA1A1nachne+QY7I9k9uJqCOJMVdowsjmfyunq1TMmV9mjA408ZsT X+Ng== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531P/WK92fZWfUZXS9VMAVAI2pZOcmvaSiY2e/meZ5PMZAkJqjxa J007ls8FxucBTB4f1zhL2maFDuwVFf/bLQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZtu/OofL5HlNznjR92xGXAXkljh1ObIyEEmd0p2IdqXLJu7jejJk06Zog+5CdGd78xX6qSA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d58a:: with SMTP id v10mr14737071pju.23.1631909826590; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 20sm7152410pfi.170.2021.09.17.13.17.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:06 -0700 (PDT) To: Henk Birkholz , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <16b543c2-6634-0aac-5b4c-17a335bb29b1@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 08:17:03 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:17:13 -0000 Henk, > I am having a hard time to relate to what all the fuzz is about, tbh =F0= =9F=98=85 For me, the deepest concern is that if we don't have a clear and public d= eletion policy, this material will end up in prior art debates and subpoe= nas and we'd find ourselves obliged to keep it for ever. Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Sat Sep 18 03:04:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0407E3A0B72 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 03:04:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.co.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BnOTGW5yAg5d for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 03:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic303-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic303-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E949C3A0B70 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 03:04:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s2048; t=1631959485; bh=wK5iUsmGLNWwtxAx4uprYVGaRkBsael+m4+HsnG4gAo=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=frEBsCnCpmMT/gojYMRKC85Lcpm9WPnd/xX1d/K1/A8D6xvohQu9DF1RKWscVV2hGhHxrFOwv1UQxUfOs1d5q4yrR7kNxPB+4GQN1j4a9trAKh9Jv8TgRgBRw1GPpGqbWTi5PCyqNovC6tNIsCPLBLsHSktWpuGrhOt4TdSL89hzVRtV20HmqhAH+KbJpXJgEw24sDJBKIlaIaPHtmjbpimvz575h0mNEkAKocauYn13Onzx8HE9gPUfbdpc2z4BwIl9DDrMU7Occyba2qsSzHdapiarDQSZJIufu+GaQH6bCCfdPqIoeb3ZNREkDVwxJ3C6GASkDf4tdpW7pKxAjg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1631959485; bh=9zBzjfrq83RdNBsF2bIunOE02CrD8nOKVZQi29gso7Y=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:Subject:Date:To:From:Subject; b=sevbXumNOb/hqjpmai5qfml3z4lwNVupCP5RSsV2bb4fNP6CAQYUPDQKqCQWyeQ6xgRlaj10XrGdrlp146hocKqFmkOJ022gzHtQKW4ShFNw3sW783aTALU5g015WlOFOlvykTTWfvHK43cct09q+M2aQ64OtDhM4J7mPWO09jT0E+9AP3Lmr5S/zpCnbA+4j2Mw8OjFQkwZ3KQVS0T8uw4jv/m4fbLSnjCmLdMvzu4cMjKsnPUdQkzwWVNAXfE3e6/A1EFh+LntJ9TR5v1qCs34Wm+T7Eok7O65imUsd3pVIae0oQOdXrgLPDLLxowIIu72lHBTKzy+GL9NVknX4Q== X-YMail-OSG: 38x7kLcVM1k0fTt9Tsi9khWClK6M6fBPJqEqUkxrfLrTe1f3EaArVI8bXE5GkjN _IGaJriEXDNz2F3eKaZWN9c2D9H2JuLSXUJIjGhUjOL.5ySd8G.XTmbQY_m4d7ERq2vmG6TjZ0TA 66iQt8Kc.dPmKYdgr8A2D0SWGPTUjKxQx9OnIt0SSYrOBENx4G.fxXyGzlEkJSK8YmUpgXDepXbo C0we_dsQlVSn8jw1aqeAApl5cyTG5zhJjWqPiuCuJ_mJ4ZOxwDGY6WOJFRQhclOJiF.WMxfRblXv r6Tr6FsUDuuoMz4UwECRRJko7baaavYSe.4hb4lntMXf4OEyhkHDu4kGN._vPXTWU_9.Uyb_1Dj_ e2woC7r9ydVvKMZKtG14UqUzQb_LLSBgf.YA8lqIde1RQR0RM3mNJiJZL24uZGvJFRp3fW3Za2ct p.AAQLGCq03skdOrfuzWmbqFsTID_CjukswWF3z7.0e.WkEqRtS4k3G0i0PaFIEePLtF7iyuGHpS bLfTJ0sHwLxxRlNIW4lrC154AROTsZbKPKtPgVvdSWT.c638kCLGC7vwFzLCmPYAhKy1FGcKVuGX EUSDPgTvFmiQrjA66ZlhpFyQauF6k.98k5kV25uVsy7e2FmmcVeRc5Dq_hz.WMzOZ2U61n9F3C3A o3_eTHB98SAszBgXWJ2D1Bh_GVNSdCN5eod45yEtdwicnwiitRr6OovDZhBykc27xVxluADoAjEf VXOaIoHT1Sk.sj8LgmGL1vetIJ3epYYEG5pf6n7uXaijHAvLKf0lfP4BxrwETn3CbYimGKtnhoxl iP.83_fQy2BdXV_v0jVKvpwd11oGLoVBsPDMZTicajJOjGoi.D0Cg3j_LNTwOW0k.F6EBEtRGF6H kgBakT4Er_S5BZcPo0QGM4JSed4rcuDA8iD4spHyepcB8Hone.2osIwbB3hxdbQIslYZc6MTYKNb Kb8AJ2jmdjF0aaRvB1i40upGv7RO64o23_pKD3Sc7EaF5q2N4DkCPob0_coLSscMvUJ5PHnsAU1X kxmPcOSsfgyV.UqyJoBisqBIKIbmVySm6S1zCGdnrvIIXIaii3Aj0EJIi_P2EB6V4RXmLeVVTPeI xmlmaNXjFvA440zvlhUMJawKzIloJ2YVp51QuljxDyLHtlJhRqJEYzIdJEFkLrtdDVMNGn9jywR4 yGbv8PjhQc4bUD7UDsez2GenRKtY0z_4jVMaxALq.Bx92mU6FrRN4DEPOSVmNr.Tr9v_KggWV_fA xw4Hs7ThFEhNSRpcUJFWozsKd.z8eKcLLPqejgJOhq3UkS7IF2GFe7FW6dbdRKSYHW4Uxidy81nf 1vWmwi6HUg14He9.XAu6E1hOZ4KWQuGHptiXWpcRTe7PtIF6bhC0BWh1FNmhn2u67U_tveD03Azs x1IXva5yglT4jaXHTVxD9AQHWST79tehqHEC6W01WrX83D42eAKsYurjekv42cJM1XCdn1vJonJj XYXeh6bXpQ1wfMVSsK5x_t9MufWLf.nZUCmYX_7Is7B9bjiIGOHVN2FlpyNDpL7SSX6B0kdhLhr. 0VVXa5.BTQj2N3XeHBQDG.MJr_h1JZfka30cKNmcw4i31irDM0Pej8lC_NRnOkxw7Bhi.KelxeQH E_ENsw7dWoFPioAk5Rbi40QFlfALagQXCCb6asTZjaoifqZWES_Pqucz.EF8r107Hp9yjheooEgH thF1O8f2GahQTVd__P9ta2edUe7hvA0VOVWgGoKVNkDgpFFHInywWzUJmhQ6XM_MgTrAJp1DnHg2 nWy5m56k3aCNSj302mAmGZ0k3h5iYfE9JbG7RUT0yqxGycdgstx53gB_cGd.QmnwxFY06hSkPujE Qhy1tiqnI7xH2rauF_qQCxVEgUwLvJ6d5aMqCRrcAzE1EkM6CNEx_iqseM.VdGTVScrj4yElAVjz r8aXpfoVr4PzlEIoyOfpLr9LlBNf1P4PbW4ZVd0ldf2AGofniPk20U4Jtu2CykJFtvEZWGLAaDHY YkPsBx0Ls_GAZls1uYaK2TwTk8BXsgM9ZoTgjCnyBM.the_WyNjLnjMC0ip3Rj9oFp8_cJ7hBJLp rSiNf.LRl_6oXADEgKn8acbw5DH6pSSY2QfIlq1TvPo_80d6YFUoB6YMeCxnwNwdkwvxeE3qW8Nh 4wjol3tXRERNfUGm5dOlpgw7HlAZTv5sVcyyUQU1xCziCJpQX.NRo56EIVLNgWXJcYu7b.b_yOF6 kqvnD2Z260jYivITuoj8EqFPuLT16iEG3QzCCS7Yqj9nDgkaqzHoUiqYJApkehy7DLqHVsxczWrJ InFSb4Of_V8g080G8IrIvsIz__4NUy5ZuzqzZWOnaGqOsVTFt86hhIu2SqM4- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:04:45 +0000 Received: by kubenode558.mail-prod1.omega.gq1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 84c1053a70546bb4f6c0563915b79fd6; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:54:35 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3EBD577A-39E7-4F4F-B4A6-D9BDD1B0FF7B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Lloyd W Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 19:54:31 +1000 Message-Id: <6C08B2BC-0E04-435D-A68E-3E61D3773DA9@yahoo.co.uk> References: Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:04:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail-3EBD577A-39E7-4F4F-B4A6-D9BDD1B0FF7B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 16 Sep 2021, at 17:41, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users are re= sponsible for the reliability of their operating systems. That's as crazy as expecting drivers to be responsible for the reliability o= f the cars they drive. It will never catch on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Computer_Driving_Licence= --Apple-Mail-3EBD577A-39E7-4F4F-B4A6-D9BDD1B0FF7B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 16 Sep 2021, at 17:41, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users are responsible for the reliability of their operating systems.

That's as crazy as expecting drivers to be responsible for the reliability of the cars they drive. It will never catch on.

--Apple-Mail-3EBD577A-39E7-4F4F-B4A6-D9BDD1B0FF7B-- From nobody Sat Sep 18 05:38:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 747D73A12B2 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 05:38:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K4u_BsLdZuK2 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C3543A12B1 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml701-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.207]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4HBVfD4X9xz67KxR; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 20:35:32 +0800 (CST) Received: from dggeml751-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.150) by fraeml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 14:37:51 +0200 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.152) by dggeml751-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 20:37:50 +0800 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) by dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.008; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 20:37:49 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Benjamin Kaduk , Donald Eastlake , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: slow tools reaction Thread-Index: AdesiMA9tL2HT/VITGWFvtUDRwtctg== Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:37:49 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:38:01 -0000 SSBhZ3JlZSwgb25saW5lIHJmY2RpZmYgdG9vbCBpcyBleHRyZW1lbHkgdXNlZnVsLHdoaWNoIEkg dXNlZCBvZnRlbiBmb3IgZHJhZnQgdXBkYXRpbmcgY2hlY2tpbmcsIGFsdGhvdWdoIG9mZmxpbmUg dG9vbCBzdWNoIGFzIGJleW9uZCBjb21wYXJlIGNhbiBkbyB0aGUgc2ltaWxhciB0aGluZywgYnV0 IGNvbXBhcmluZyB3aXRoIHJmY2RpZmYsIG5vdCBlbGVnYW50IGFzIEkgdGhvdWdodCB3aGVuIHlv dSBnZXQgdXNlZCB0byB0aGUgcmZjZGlmZi4NCg0KLVFpbg0KLS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0t LQ0K5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBKZWZmcmV5IChaaGFvaHVpKSBaaGFuZyBbbWFpbHRvOnp6aGFuZ0BqdW5p cGVyLm5ldF0gDQrlj5HpgIHml7bpl7Q6IDIwMjHlubQ55pyIMTfml6UgMjE6MDcNCuaUtuS7tuS6 ujogUWluIFd1IDxiaWxsLnd1QGh1YXdlaS5jb20+OyBCZW5qYW1pbiBLYWR1ayA8a2FkdWtAbWl0 LmVkdT47IERvbmFsZCBFYXN0bGFrZSA8ZDNlM2UzQGdtYWlsLmNvbT47IHRvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3NA aWV0Zi5vcmcNCuS4u+mimDogUkU6IHNsb3cgdG9vbHMgcmVhY3Rpb24NCg0KSGkgUWluLA0KDQpX aGlsZSB0aG9zZSB0b29scyBhcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGZvciBwdWJsaXNoZWQgZHJhZnRzLCBzb21l dGltZXMgd2UgbmVlZCB0byB1c2UgdGhlbSBmb3Igc29tZSB1bnB1Ymxpc2hlZCBvbmVzIHlldC4g Rm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHdlIG1heSB3YW50IHRvIGRvIGEgc3BlbGwgY2hlY2ssIG9yIGRvIGEgZGlm ZiBvZiBuZXcgKHlldCB0byBiZSBwdWJsaXNoZWQpIHJldmlzaW9uIGFnYWluc3QgYW4gZXhpc3Rp bmcgcmV2aXNpb24uIFRoZXJlZm9yZSwgYSBzZXBhcmF0ZSB0b29scyBwYWdlIGxpa2UgY3VycmVu dCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZyB3b3VsZCBiZSBuaWNlLg0KDQpUaGFua3MuDQpKZWZmcmV5DQoNCi0t LS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBRaW4gV3UgPGJpbGwud3VAaHVhd2VpLmNv bT4NClNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDE3LCAyMDIxIDI6MDEgQU0NClRvOiBKZWZmcmV5 IChaaGFvaHVpKSBaaGFuZyA8enpoYW5nQGp1bmlwZXIubmV0PjsgQmVuamFtaW4gS2FkdWsgPGth ZHVrQG1pdC5lZHU+OyBEb25hbGQgRWFzdGxha2UgPGQzZTNlM0BnbWFpbC5jb20+OyB0b29scy1k aXNjdXNzQGlldGYub3JnDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSRTogc2xvdyB0b29scyByZWFjdGlvbg0KDQpbRXh0 ZXJuYWwgRW1haWwuIEJlIGNhdXRpb3VzIG9mIGNvbnRlbnRdDQoNCg0KSmVmZnJleToNCi0tLS0t 6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCuWPkeS7tuS6ujogV0dDaGFpcnMgW21haWx0bzp3Z2NoYWlycy1i b3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSDku6PooaggSmVmZnJleSAoWmhhb2h1aSkgWmhhbmcNCuWPkemAgeaX tumXtDogMjAyMeW5tDnmnIgxNuaXpSAyMDozMg0K5pS25Lu25Lq6OiBCZW5qYW1pbiBLYWR1ayA8 a2FkdWtAbWl0LmVkdT47IERvbmFsZCBFYXN0bGFrZSA8ZDNlM2UzQGdtYWlsLmNvbT47IHRvb2xz LWRpc2N1c3NAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCuS4u+mimDogUkU6IHNsb3cgdG9vbHMgcmVhY3Rpb24NCg0KWyBt b3ZpbmcgdG8gdG9vbHMtZGlzY3VzcyBdDQoNCkhpIEJlbiwNCg0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHBvaW50 aW5nIG91dCB0aGUgZGVjb21taXNzaW9uaW5nLiBTb3JyeSBmb3Igbm90IG5vdGljaW5nIHRoZSBh bm5vdW5jZW1lbnQgYmVmb3JlLCBhbmQgYXBwYXJlbnRseSB0aGVyZSBhcmUgcXVpdGUgc29tZSBw ZW9wbGUgbGlrZSBtZSDwn5iKDQoNCkFueXdheSwgSSB1c2UgdGhlIGRpZmYvaWRuaXQvc3BlbGwv eG1sMnJmYyBhbmQgZHJhZnQgc3VibWlzc2lvbiB0b29scyBhdCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZyBhbmQg dGhleSd2ZSBiZWVuIHNsb3cgcmVjZW50bHkuIEFmdGVyIGxlYXJuaW5nIHRoYXQgdG9vbHMuaWV0 Zi5vcmcgaXMgcmVwbGFjZWQgYnkgdGhlIGRhdGF0cmFja2VyLCBJIHdlbnQgdG8gZGF0YXRyYWNr ZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcuIFRoZXJlIHRoZSBvbmx5IGxpbmtzIHJlbGF0ZWQgdG8gdGhlIHRvb2xzIHRo YXQgSSB1c2UgYXJlICJEcmFmdCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uIiB1bmRlciB0aGUgIkRvY3VtZW50cyIgdGFi LCBhbmQgIklFVEYgVG9vbHMiIGF0IHRoZSBsb3dlciByaWdodCBib3R0b20uDQoNCltRaW5dOiBJ IGhhdmUgYmVlbiByZWFsaXplZCB0aGF0IGlkbml0IHRvb2xzIGhhcyBiZWVuIHNsb3cgcmVjZW50 bHkgaW4gdGhlIGRhdGF0cmFja2VyLg0KSmVmZiwgZGlmZiBhbmQgaWRuaXRlcyBoYXZlIGJlZW4g aW50ZWdyYXRlZCBpbnRvIGRhdGFzdHJhY2tlciB0b29scyBpZiB5b3UgY2xpY2sgb24gdGhlIGRv Y3VtZW50IHlvdSBhcmUgbG9va2luZyBmb3IgaW4gdGhlIGRhdGEgdHJhY2tlciB3ZWJwYWdlLg0K WW91IHdpbGwgc2VlIGRpZmYgdG9vbCBpbiB0aGUgaGlzdG9yeSB0YWIsIGlkbml0cyB0b29sIGlz IGluIHRoZSBtaWRkbGUgb2Ygc3RhdHVzIHRhYiBmb3IgZWFjaCBkb2N1bWVudCBodHRwczovL3Vy bGRlZmVuc2UuY29tL3YzL19faHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvZHJhZnQt aWV0Zi14eHh4X187ISFORXQ2eU1hTy1nayFWTmsydHFLVGpyYmFrRjMtNTg5R0U0NV9hRVV4OU96 bHN3VktiaDY3YVgxMVNxU0dSV1NFTk1rWmxTVlRSRW9jJA0KU3BlbGwgdG9vbCB1bmZvcnR1bmF0 ZWx5IEkgaGF2ZW4ndCBzZWVuIGl0IGludGVncmF0ZWQgaW50byBkYXRhdHJhY2tlciB0b29sLiBJ dCB3b3VsZCBiZSBncmVhdCB0byBnZXQgYWNjZXNzIHRvIHRoZXNlIHRvb2xzIGluIGEgc2luZ2xl IHBsYWNlLg0KDQpIb3dldmVyLCAiSUVURiBUb29scyIgc2ltcGx5IHBvaW50cyB0byAidG9vbHMu aWV0Zi5vcmciLCBhbmQgIkRyYWZ0IFN1Ym1pc3Npb24iIGxpbmsgaW4gInRvb2xzLmlldGYub3Jn IiBpcyB0aGUgc2FtZSBhcyAiRHJhZnQgU3VibWlzc2lvbiIgdW5kZXIgdGhlICJEb2N1bWVudHMi IHRhYiAoYWxsIHBvaW50IHRvIGh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRwczovL2Rh dGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL3N1Ym1pdC9fXzshIU5FdDZ5TWFPLWdrIVZOazJ0cUtUanJiYWtG My01ODlHRTQ1X2FFVXg5T3psc3dWS2JoNjdhWDExU3FTR1JXU0VOTWtabFk3TzliQzkkICkuDQoN ClNvIEkgYW0gc3RpbGwgYSBiaXQgbG9zdCAtIGFwcHJlY2lhdGUgaWYgc29tZW9uZSBjb3VsZCBz aGFyZSBhIGxpbmsgdG8gdGhlIGFubm91bmNlbWVudCB0aGF0IEkgbWlzc2VkLg0KDQpUaGFua3Mu DQpKZWZmcmV5DQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBCZW5qYW1pbiBL YWR1ayA8a2FkdWtAbWl0LmVkdT4NClNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMTYsIDIwMjEg MTI6MTQgQU0NClRvOiBEb25hbGQgRWFzdGxha2UgPGQzZTNlM0BnbWFpbC5jb20+DQpDYzogd2dj aGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IE1hbmthbWFuYSBNaXNocmEgKG1hbmthbWlzKSA8bWFua2FtaXNAY2lz Y28uY29tPjsgSmVmZnJleSAoWmhhb2h1aSkgWmhhbmcgPHp6aGFuZ0BqdW5pcGVyLm5ldD4NClN1 YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBzbG93IHRvb2xzIHJlYWN0aW9uDQoNCltFeHRlcm5hbCBFbWFpbC4gQmUgY2F1 dGlvdXMgb2YgY29udGVudF0NCg0KDQpJIGFzc3VtZSB0aGF0IGV2ZXJ5b25lIGlzIHJlZmVycmlu ZyB0byBzaXRlcyBob3N0ZWQgdW5kZXIgdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcsIHRoZSBvbGQgc2VydmVyIHRo YXQgaXMgc2xhdGVkIGZvciBkZWNvbW1pc2lvbmluZy4NCkkgaGF2ZSBzZWVuIHNsb3duZXNzIGFz IHdlbGwsIGJ1dCBpdCBkb2VzIG5vdCByZWFsbHkgY29uY2VybiBtZSBtdWNoIGJlY2F1c2UgZXZl cnl0aGluZyBJIHJlZ3VsYXJseSB1c2UgaXMgYWN0dWFsbHkgb24gdGhlIGRhdGF0cmFja2VyLCBh bmQgdGhlIHNsb3duZXNzIG9ubHkgY29tZXMgYWJvdXQgYmVjYXVzZSBsaW5rcyAoZS5nLiwgZnJv bSBnb29nbGUpIGhhdmUgbm90IHVwZGF0ZWQgdG8gcG9pbnQgdG8gZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIgZGlyZWN0 bHkgaW5zdGVhZCBvZiB0b29scy4NCg0KQWxzbywgdG9vbHMtZGlzY3VzcyBpcyBwcm9iYWJseSBh IGJldHRlciBsaXN0IGF0IHdoaWNoIHRvIGRpc2N1c3MgYW55IGlzc3Vlcy4NCg0KLUJlbg0KDQpP biBXZWQsIFNlcCAxNSwgMjAyMSBhdCAxMDoxMzo1NVBNIC0wNDAwLCBEb25hbGQgRWFzdGxha2Ug d3JvdGU6DQo+IE1lIHRvby4uLg0KPg0KPiBUaGFua3MsDQo+IERvbmFsZA0KPiA9PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09DQo+ICBEb25hbGQgRS4gRWFzdGxha2UgM3JkICAgKzEtNTA4 LTMzMy0yMjcwIChjZWxsKQ0KPiAgMjM4NiBQYW5vcmFtaWMgQ2lyY2xlLCBBcG9wa2EsIEZMIDMy NzAzIFVTQSAgZDNlM2UzQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ0KPg0KPiBPbiBXZWQsIFNlcCAxNSwgMjAyMSBhdCA4 OjQyIFBNIE1hbmthbWFuYSBNaXNocmEgKG1hbmthbWlzKSANCj4gPG1hbmthbWlzPTQwY2lzY28u Y29tQGRtYXJjLmlldGYub3JnPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gPg0KPiA+IFllcyAsIGl04oCZcyBiZWVuIHNs b3cgZm9yIG1lIHRvbyAuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBNYW5rYW1hbmENCj4gPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+IEZyb206IFdHQ2hhaXJzIDx3Z2NoYWlycy1ib3VuY2VzQGll dGYub3JnPiBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgSmVmZnJleQ0KPiA+IChaaGFvaHVpKSBaaGFuZyA8enpoYW5n PTQwanVuaXBlci5uZXRAZG1hcmMuaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+ID4gU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBTZXB0 ZW1iZXIgMTUsIDIwMjEgNTozMzozMiBQTQ0KPiA+IFRvOiB3Z2NoYWlyc0BpZXRmLm9yZyA8d2dj aGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+ID4gU3ViamVjdDogc2xvdyB0b29scyByZWFjdGlvbg0KPiA+DQo+ ID4gSGksDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBJcyBpdCBqdXN0IG1lIG9yIGhhdmUgeW91IGFsc28gbm90aWNlZCB0 aGF0IElFVEYgdG9vbHMgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHF1aXRlIHNsb3cgcmVjZW50bHk/DQo+ID4NCj4gPiBU aGFua3MuDQo+ID4gSmVmZnJleQ0KPiA+DQo+ID4gSnVuaXBlciBCdXNpbmVzcyBVc2UgT25seQ0K PiA+DQo+DQoNCkp1bmlwZXIgQnVzaW5lc3MgVXNlIE9ubHkNCg0KSnVuaXBlciBCdXNpbmVzcyBV c2UgT25seQ0K From nobody Sat Sep 18 22:13:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979443A1BA6 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:13:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SWCg1tOfNgzR for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADB5E3A1BA7 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 18J5CqVm029933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 19 Sep 2021 01:12:57 -0400 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:12:51 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Qin Wu Cc: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Donald Eastlake , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20210919051251.GA98042@kduck.mit.edu> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 05:13:16 -0000 For rfcdiff specifically, https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff lets you upload or reference arbitrary files. I haven't had a need for standalone idnits, so I have no data on that one. -Ben On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 12:37:49PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > I agree, online rfcdiff tool is extremely useful,which I used often for draft updating checking, although offline tool such as beyond compare can do the similar thing, but comparing with rfcdiff, not elegant as I thought when you get used to the rfcdiff. > > -Qin > -----邮件原件----- > å‘件人: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net] > å‘é€æ—¶é—´: 2021å¹´9月17æ—¥ 21:07 > 收件人: Qin Wu ; Benjamin Kaduk ; Donald Eastlake ; tools-discuss@ietf.org > 主题: RE: slow tools reaction > > Hi Qin, > > While those tools are available for published drafts, sometimes we need to use them for some unpublished ones yet. For example, we may want to do a spell check, or do a diff of new (yet to be published) revision against an existing revision. Therefore, a separate tools page like current tools.ietf.org would be nice. > > Thanks. > Jeffrey > > -----Original Message----- > From: Qin Wu > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2021 2:01 AM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; Benjamin Kaduk ; Donald Eastlake ; tools-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: RE: slow tools reaction > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > Jeffrey: > -----邮件原件----- > å‘件人: WGChairs [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] 代表 Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > å‘é€æ—¶é—´: 2021å¹´9月16æ—¥ 20:32 > 收件人: Benjamin Kaduk ; Donald Eastlake ; tools-discuss@ietf.org > 主题: RE: slow tools reaction > > [ moving to tools-discuss ] > > Hi Ben, > > > Thanks for pointing out the decommissioning. Sorry for not noticing the announcement before, and apparently there are quite some people like me 😊 > > Anyway, I use the diff/idnit/spell/xml2rfc and draft submission tools at tools.ietf.org and they've been slow recently. After learning that tools.ietf.org is replaced by the datatracker, I went to datatracker.ietf.org. There the only links related to the tools that I use are "Draft Submission" under the "Documents" tab, and "IETF Tools" at the lower right bottom. > > [Qin]: I have been realized that idnit tools has been slow recently in the datatracker. > Jeff, diff and idnites have been integrated into datastracker tools if you click on the document you are looking for in the data tracker webpage. > You will see diff tool in the history tab, idnits tool is in the middle of status tab for each document https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-xxxx__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!VNk2tqKTjrbakF3-589GE45_aEUx9OzlswVKbh67aX11SqSGRWSENMkZlSVTREoc$ > Spell tool unfortunately I haven't seen it integrated into datatracker tool. It would be great to get access to these tools in a single place. > > However, "IETF Tools" simply points to "tools.ietf.org", and "Draft Submission" link in "tools.ietf.org" is the same as "Draft Submission" under the "Documents" tab (all point to https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!VNk2tqKTjrbakF3-589GE45_aEUx9OzlswVKbh67aX11SqSGRWSENMkZlY7O9bC9$ ). > > So I am still a bit lost - appreciate if someone could share a link to the announcement that I missed. > > Thanks. > Jeffrey > > -----Original Message----- > From: Benjamin Kaduk > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 12:14 AM > To: Donald Eastlake > Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org; Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) ; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Subject: Re: slow tools reaction > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > I assume that everyone is referring to sites hosted under tools.ietf.org, the old server that is slated for decommisioning. > I have seen slowness as well, but it does not really concern me much because everything I regularly use is actually on the datatracker, and the slowness only comes about because links (e.g., from google) have not updated to point to datatracker directly instead of tools. > > Also, tools-discuss is probably a better list at which to discuss any issues. > > -Ben > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 10:13:55PM -0400, Donald Eastlake wrote: > > Me too... > > > > Thanks, > > Donald > > =============================== > > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > > 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com > > > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 8:42 PM Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes , it’s been slow for me too . > > > > > > Mankamana > > > ________________________________ > > > From: WGChairs on behalf of Jeffrey > > > (Zhaohui) Zhang > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 5:33:32 PM > > > To: wgchairs@ietf.org > > > Subject: slow tools reaction > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Is it just me or have you also noticed that IETF tools have been quite slow recently? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > Juniper Business Use Only From nobody Sat Sep 18 22:32:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EED953A1C38 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.co.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KNLn4lOjAwYu for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic313-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic313-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C3253A1C3A for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:31:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s2048; t=1632029481; bh=u6KBdFiIABUaLxOZDCXs/JUxL1Kfiv/4KuMR0V1Daqk=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=crbdtmjO1cvawwLPhQcRZH6buyy301IJh8dwse8EdEFqbYXiUiDk+VHUZwAstVII/xdBUHmmpIGNhVMq2C0TXp543xu5AdaIaaeV36mUBFFxsDUz0cyfYi+kh3MYiLp+HzhjU25y+pni3TmObUokX23nllYgjQFmt3Tqg5fjyVVgg9qs4m5qYwgussjNwpK7TPzNXruRe3LI5Z0xSdIodAIwA4Nco2woYG26dH97HhdUkTEq7d4IUpKgtrAi87dS3m5XnDs2d/UAaLcpGt/r/+00X0UjOhS6pUqGVnSmo3Et6gDO8qUzAgGmPxopnd5dz/WZSzpzyGyLNPl9Jq/1VQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1632029481; bh=V85Csfs/1KhNi2aShwo7fMXPg+1pjz3akldIfiS4H1K=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:Subject:Date:To:From:Subject; b=LKn4x3PH83RNLD0PzRJbBc6JPjbc1HjHsvqcss7i/2GJ/XkW4zYnfdYAc2q3Cn/Ihm9gizNFNTf+GnZexbK8vi1dZDYQ+xtq8UI/DuJtEpDky/5cBU/cU8puZTXqBT0lxCvvshuSvpWHZB7TqheTbklvWwmL6qJyMMEluYEavWHm9TzQbinIeg+dkkdZ1qTvjNmz/VY2nK1oQRyn722sO+DHmuqbKdvzB+xyVfE8Yg/ZHDMGiHpg4cKJmc8Ra3zTxm8YPdY2RsMuYZxrrkhDTTzjQouSX5kZq9P09uMQnSGo6DtAtDNwpH7Vt0H1qiGdZTRTjdzHuEnY99dQ7xGrgw== X-YMail-OSG: F6wPIhEVM1nrt0Hhn6ROqco16DU9AihUTR49VUXDXWw7jn24q989_UOJ_fudtEL Lc008e6jkjQPW6gwKn4LlFwXEJkM.cSp_GNPx_O0P6iGSmYsQID4Qe5DVeaCdk2l9OWcyMB9HBBq uEqu6w4yRjsZQSwXX0JasIbDwJGLVsMWpT4YYM_d9FY7WhOyxvc8UfDFSJA3Iyz0zyUWMHp6qjvo trrOPyRohNIbWMIEBE5nw932IkcrGYxHIPySBKxGPKwWjgDGiJs54Xf3ode2QK.UTrFaB1EQeMjp xcnPdFKs4eFIK7C.J6NUsFowrrzmfZIvuhaEo0qSAknlSkqjA1erE5vwLO_IwGvHzaLoxMbNVWMb sicMYsTshDAlqBcgcYQIy9SkhVO0SUC3ymAPSwgjLNVM7o3Ay0uB4pWUfm6zCmCaw8s31MRIFJGS vUMYSOazm1HovKhCYG7SAzDBp6JzevfHq3i_LUsnH71KSfURokvGBo0oXU_VWUTiQn8XzdzoVsem 6ytW6.PIWKSLxNBruZS3ijZLdyOI3hRUxMRjcc6PRGWfGNOHlGisNPaf7XCg09Pm0ozzJYtKpxIB CNhfKsumf1DEUII6Kt8H6OYf18mCaUC0I73PyYQEm4cwfuBouhCV8lP0DpJC.jg7wNzUWhFP1d4T lSvZhw8ev08LMI6SAZDTe1FMRWOLCz4CVUGcQbkkuTVAF8oRcws3nJT5AvteTeMGREc4daZIbyQi 6W6EDCno1b59ly5_njXSJO6y7PtxWqfeS847Wwak2dLQHaCnQbja.dnnVpABSUgcyn09PuEF497P 46DC78ZPtgMXIf1a4B9pu3N0HI3rgMVJhNIJOwu5MHThZU9SJ80R0KBVm2yUBYlO44KRDuFsuTnH w5OCCYccC2LNXsc.FXPPDwqBjtedyWakubuL2CMksTZq5gQmbxrGAnaFIiMZSbGvoiOglWBDGD.l ZFtjfr3ev54kG0HHtVj2zUtek41cZYlyIRuy27XhSz.Ec.3Tz_MB9HzMfrfU5aKw7rDnqLWQSFum 6WlSmc0758tZh9wrtZ5OE6uo5Ki65xXwP34_g.gRH7TyxGkuehhK7dj1EseS1reIFwL.RtYuNJiY iI8kVQRwBoNY.P7yqnAqEzOdvsnq8vzMdxyCScI3FMcw8hmCnNXuC1enK4EuBwDsNLgsIWpQ86I1 HizU_6LXpjMspanW1H5lNiGZjRgCO3ptAvxAkYxXoEzlrpX8DXIuIqSemisHQVgDm_ydz.J1anKp X7k4z8SclIIxyXP.U04TZMc1OUJua6qtBiCPVnxdGoNv2RZrvzddym5.V9UuaF3Wizk2IvwctkUO n9iDtND9BsBHLcadySjsbQpClgLR9S4rtSMe9TRis0sQVExyrfrJ.rUzg8yg7edYnOwOJajTJ9aS nITeSsY0xRhKI1XaR1_FjaC.8t5p.NYA8ntdQ9rrYkofNqFsQzN5cBi3JLh.k8ASpo9RCaBfQvcz iG1ciAxam.aZYkHHPvC6oM14L5Z0YHZwbAvZHmn6_vodzbmDhlfaFpgLHKalcoW4B1SdepzXWufj K5yCkbkZd6VoQQi4xqyeY3zkqrtKOykSqsSH8iiWYjbBROnp8K2s962yghp9BGHeTF13EzVbRwPm fm37HqN1qstG6.Yip5l3akxkpDLUBqs_A9C6xCg2VZRq3w4jVOGInxyBb0wmWv2ELZKecyRD.nOz XmkaqH6aeW9v_3Z52KRt23nE_j.siOMS4y_2RNriagTAI4dM_T2zd2IYC0TSnEkm4Kk_HlXArpcn 19gp1Jj9kJpbiwgWB3UilKUab3JJugBIG2YhOojXilmchU..MGO4ixeVbtYnT1hDZfhrJKotwpPb .ORau7klI_gTPSqWyuGzkFLJS6zPLygjlntCSVW_bgZqwcyTGrs1q8f017Fq2cSLTGWqPzFLUIhf ZY3i50rolAuWfCv1dhbGYunoFgoEAdX9O36pQXGGl_A84uBvS930IZUFIzvK1lOdEBx.rXJQ0g8j dAN2_mepOfcOnuLr4C8MB_YNqfpAA.KTQX4aX7225BUxf7jKLNYwIkxnfms1kql_ChXYM5I0zA2x Docid6fPVHPmxL3xoPkvsc8nxtQ4N5PxSfNJ62d4ek0arZ_qaZQsaL.ZMZBHkFfjYqv5oVx6AkgD 4hT177ulEfxPvCUtSSIQsWVIzSj9qF_xAx3YV0D8gGcf6jmZkBHkJsDzSy4mQcATS4GcGUBT2_qc DRZxksDbtX3Sgw4s8txKWlk3n1WLwrnSTgSZsU6XgsAoiokJpH0UZIPG9zys5.oxCmyN5TfDWTUK 3qzHYwrZiVA3cpXRrkfFtgFZKyLkVaoZI9moXSqyqI1GiQUx0pA7bbt9AGG1LepJz X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 05:31:21 +0000 Received: by kubenode530.mail-prod1.omega.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 334a82df81db581aabb98ce2c8895127; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 05:31:16 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lloyd W Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:31:12 +1000 Message-Id: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> References: Cc: Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 05:31:30 -0000 > On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do collab= orative editing? See RFC8874. Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk wondering what the IETF mandated editor is.= From nobody Sun Sep 19 02:17:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198623A239D; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 02:17:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LKC3vPdNAtMQ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 02:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A4653A239A; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 02:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id q3so48357076edt.5; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 02:17:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8zAUndBmdOkG59HQY3P6DkJ9Lk5LGCAatJo00TcbBcI=; b=VnQLtAG98dMgVXfJG9SAQAdL2om9LGHtk+zqiTPuJsFtJnFBoMDXrxglWd/7K1BYZn 3Q/Z4qipQYg1DtUst535a8DkixYv//oXuNqoLz+lOloukYLstotZVUD038RZOFNogrgd 8KBxSpcnfpfNAsmNjSsmQ8mcqAqFL41Stin6WyfXcZF0EGVDi3SpVXbm3DbxNBAaWtuy Q75BHmqsP4vl0GT1AhRgggRlJQxLCIlIjA3qnaDvyDgNnZyQtYZKOjLNfssGiWG4u9nY cexirk2PYKGDKEKN9OO8NmfqE+1itsmYxRLsMaBP74CYhqgYX3MAbcUZ8zw46csg/cIi sXbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8zAUndBmdOkG59HQY3P6DkJ9Lk5LGCAatJo00TcbBcI=; b=UocXPmmxYvcqB0kdcgDwHaOpDaEt4iKx6vgZAV4pBYps01h1FWpfgOSSOAwii7gV4b Y1sJuRHAl0C5hywLYStpfe9KZM002BCx7cCqyuO3l5N2z9ovXi+QZg65ZH7vCt79QVK4 MAay1XjlaaNMmRlBcv/y8pF2VgUZJCGrs6qzWQosFUb9FUA2SjiMerb43s9P5h6CX0v5 fpFsn+mebp2KgI66jNLlNP9X0xwRlhokzw5cElm39dk5Z1W9I5qrxccwINwNyAdxcoxO yWQl5XPaj7LL2Lv+O2PxoMKyttL4pNgA6Y7UxNgiZEwzw6sAK8m1zgV7l5L/oSciMvIZ aDYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531HvJ7jZdBlGgka6A6d+3wRWqOQ6/boMseaTOmNUVlR8+6WnmZz E15dcsT0QQVaL6iGrHfu7kHLafEcbX6DTM8TQpQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw7bB8JSmICO4s2BrjUlMzM1KwVYQ0WGIkj9GqOFrCZ6xtlPIVuM8RygpJamo+unuD9hn5slgtes3BeMO6VWoU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:32d9:: with SMTP id k25mr22539164ejk.290.1632043046229; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 02:17:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> From: David Noveck Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 05:17:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: Lloyd W Cc: Mark Nottingham , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000075cb305cc55a227" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 09:17:34 -0000 --000000000000075cb305cc55a227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" RFC 8874 is an informational document discussing wg policies for using GitHub. It does not say GitHub "is supposed to be" used for collaborative editing, let alone "IS SUPPOSED TO BE". There is no suggestion that it is the only way to do that. Actually, the process described there is, while more collaborative than previous approaches, not fully collaborative in that there is an editor who is assumed to be the editor of the corresponding working group document. On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 1:31 AM Lloyd W wrote: > > > On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > > the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference > > I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do > collaborative editing? See RFC8874. > > Lloyd Wood > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > wondering what the IETF mandated editor is. > --000000000000075cb305cc55a227 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
RFC 8874 is an informational document discussing wg polic= ies for using GitHub.=C2=A0 It does not say GitHub "is supposed to be&= quot; used for collaborative editing, let alone "IS SUPPOSED TO BE&quo= t;. There is no suggestion that it is the only way to do that.

Actually, the process described there is, = while more collaborative than previous approaches, not fully collaborative = in that there is an editor who is assumed to be the editor of the correspon= ding working group document.

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 1:31 AM Lloyd W <= ;lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk= @dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:<= br> >
> the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term refere= nce

I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do colla= borative editing? See RFC8874.

Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk

wondering what the IETF mandated editor is.
--000000000000075cb305cc55a227-- From nobody Sun Sep 19 08:04:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2833A2EC1; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 08:04:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OqBT3H7LxYnD; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 08:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 331E13A2EB9; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 08:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host-188-15-16-83.business.telecomitalia.it [188.15.16.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HC9v02gw1z2xG9; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 17:03:56 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-24B8A66F-3652-4AC7-BEA2-1783EB44A76C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 17:03:55 +0200 Cc: Mark Nottingham , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Message-Id: References: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> To: Lloyd W X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:04:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail-24B8A66F-3652-4AC7-BEA2-1783EB44A76C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combination with a website like g= itlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussion in the IETF was about.)= =20 Asynchronous means not everyone had to be present at the same time.=20 Synchronous collaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. Traces= of Google docs and such.=20 Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet and edit at the same time= , but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused=E2=80=9D for asynchronous co= llaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and asynchronous phases may a= lternate, a good git interface would be a highly desirable element of a tool= for synchronous collaboration.=20 The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a storage/intercha= nge format for textual information (text is code).=20 Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more successful students work, but the p= attern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and has been). Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >> On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >> the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference= >=20 > I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do coll= aborative editing? See RFC8874. >=20 > Lloyd Wood > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >=20 > wondering what the IETF mandated editor is. --Apple-Mail-24B8A66F-3652-4AC7-BEA2-1783EB44A76C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in= combination with a website like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub d= iscussion in the IETF was about.) 
Asynchronous means not everyone h= ad to be present at the same time. 

Synchronous c= ollaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. Traces of Google do= cs and such. 
Synchronous means the focus is on groups that m= eet and edit at the same time, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused= =E2=80=9D for asynchronous collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous= and asynchronous phases may alternate, a good git interface would be a high= ly desirable element of a tool for synchronous collaboration. 

The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a= storage/interchange format for textual information (text is code). 

Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more successful s= tudents work, but the pattern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and h= as been).

Sent from mobile, sorry for terse

On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk&g= t; wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
On 16 Sep 2021,= at 18:32, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term= reference

I thought github wa= s the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do collaborative editing? Se= e RFC8874.

Lloyd Wood
lloyd= .wood@yahoo.co.uk

wondering what the IETF m= andated editor is.
= --Apple-Mail-24B8A66F-3652-4AC7-BEA2-1783EB44A76C-- From nobody Sun Sep 19 14:20:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E2B3A3F55 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:20:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h_imTd4IRl5l for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1C343A3F53 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id r75so1827204iod.7 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:20:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2XFixRcvM3rI4f852tSYxfoIsoQjlpJTZ+WzS9APkgo=; b=X7ZWtwkbXgF2ak5etsMvQDvy5bUMJ3gf3Et08PJ6fwuX8IGdS3tRiDeeZj6tgQO38C qWzH9mS5l+ScVKFx31xwmk/EEapI0vlmZq+oCi+xQEuh/FaIkLlOIa3eLBkubmIYeJUA lRkzie801112+qiQjkXAgUYbSCrbNk73Hnj4Ntu/V21V+KAh9VDDpk9BwpT9rB21UsQz xk3ZMcyQPYGjl25d1dfc2PmkJuVha6z7fmGufILPPjDR7aiqVY4WEN9h47knOJauCVVM +vgFIeP2sMUIkDGr/nloZsganuYQ8ZCuzbUekn94k9i7gMxt4zvd5mZTKlMgYyFDjZjw ZG4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2XFixRcvM3rI4f852tSYxfoIsoQjlpJTZ+WzS9APkgo=; b=C4OuwAETqloeNw/St38X235+UPSURlzBKRSjjXwz5fHz3NcOrEpkO3SruqQm3O6ZY6 o+2nLjFSXM9KUduk/8/U6YpZ30npf+7INOHZUn35TuQ88nKps1lzhLZ4Vi4SQ1rpHha2 9Absb+ZElHwHUd5gQ4gm4HnMsbXEhHr3zCn+7sJb3eQBXGqhy15bHamIbC+2y/uvaKD8 iEk+MkD9I4OqcJPn8LLGJeu0lKa3U6dBj1LYchdJFxrehYplP4xCudzv8tHhB4jCJFoD fDbgTE9c4oGd46wuBAZpYT/tXz+BeefpsdWy5YTXnAhcgGdf1MmYxGza+lGhVhJqlIRX /1lg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532TTXrQPG/4O00+Q6BfcACBu02+MXPbewMGlsZREMxN2pafRoxj fiJ+Fk7OpwNeKGMbYKn2jKFReMSMMEE07RReN2G/Zcr34LgZ7A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxNvv28XT29tCwq01AMQs2J/7DT3gbq1Kvdssgt3UrYGJpMLIWUA949FA6Dtg8S0Igz1KkeBNnlihHgfr5Xryk= X-Received: by 2002:a02:11c1:: with SMTP id 184mr16967878jaf.70.1632086424782; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:20:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 17:20:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000978ca205cc5fbbe5" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Markdown (was: Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:20:31 -0000 --000000000000978ca205cc5fbbe5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carsten, I've changed the subject line and cut down the discussion just to tools-discuss to talk about markdown. I know that you're a huge proponent of markdown, and I've for one made good use of that via Kramdown (thanks again for creating and supporting it). However, I do have an issue with markdown, and that's how ill-defined it is, with what seems like a million variants (it's kinda like COVID - everytime you look around there's a new variant on the loose). You've done a pretty good job defining the Kramdown variant, which is one of the reasons it's so useful. But, for example, we all use other software tools that support other variants. And it's not easy keeping them straight in your head (at least not for me). So if markdown is going to be of any use for the IETF, I think we need to well-define the "IETF variant". And that may be different from Kramdown, since they have two different uses - one for general documents, like minutes, and the other for drafts and RFCs. For example, we may decide to use the Markdown variant supported by HedgeDoc (see https://pad.gwdg.de/features?both for the definition and examples), seeing as we're already using HedgeDoc. Or we might choose something else. But I think we do need to decide, if markdown is going to be of any use. Thoughts? Cheers, Andy On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combination with a website > like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussion in the IETF wa= s > about.) > Asynchronous means not everyone had to be present at the same time. > > Synchronous collaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. > Traces of Google docs and such. > Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet and edit at the same > time, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused=E2=80=9D for asynchro= nous > collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and asynchronous phases > may alternate, a good git interface would be a highly desirable element o= f > a tool for synchronous collaboration. > > The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a > storage/interchange format for textual information (text is code). > > Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more successful students work, but t= he > pattern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and has been). > > Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > > On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > > On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference > > > I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do > collaborative editing? See RFC8874. > > Lloyd Wood > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > wondering what the IETF mandated editor is. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000978ca205cc5fbbe5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Carsten,

I've chan= ged=C2=A0the subject line and cut down the discussion just to tools-discuss= to talk about markdown.

I know that you're a = huge proponent of markdown, and I've for one made good use of that via = Kramdown (thanks again for creating and supporting it).

However, I do have an issue with markdown, and that's how ill-def= ined it is, with what seems like a million variants (it's kinda like CO= VID - everytime you look around there's a new variant on the loose).

You've done a pretty good job defining the Kramd= own variant, which is one of the reasons it's so useful.

=
But, for example, we all=C2=A0use other software=C2=A0tools that= support other variants. And it's not easy keeping them straight in you= r head (at least not for me).

So if markdown is go= ing to be of any use for the IETF, I think we need to well-define the "= ;IETF variant". And that may be different=C2=A0from Kramdown, since t= hey have=C2=A0two different=C2=A0uses - one for general documents, like min= utes, and the other for drafts and RFCs.

For examp= le, we may decide to use the Markdown variant supported by HedgeDoc (see=C2= =A0https://pad.gwdg.de/featur= es?both for the definition and examples), seeing as we're already u= sing HedgeDoc. Or we might choose something else. But I think we do need to= decide, if markdown is going to be of any use.

Th= oughts?

Cheers,
Andy

On Sun, Sep 19= , 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten Bormann <cabo= @tzi.org> wrote:
Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combi= nation with a website like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discu= ssion in the IETF was about.)=C2=A0
Asynchronous means not everyone had= to be present at the same time.=C2=A0

Synchronous c= ollaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. Traces of Google d= ocs and such.=C2=A0
Synchronous means the focus is on groups that= meet and edit at the same time, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabu= sed=E2=80=9D for asynchronous collaboration. Since sessions end and synchro= nous and asynchronous phases may alternate, a good git interface would be a= highly desirable element of a tool for synchronous collaboration.=C2=A0

The more successful of either of these employ markdo= wn as a storage/interchange format for textual information (text is code).= =C2=A0

Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more s= uccessful students work, but the pattern may be transferable to work in the= IETF (and has been).

Sent from=C2=A0mobile, sorry for terse

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk= > wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
On 16 Sep 2= 021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference=

I thought github was the too= l that the IETF was supposed to use to do collaborative editing? See RFC887= 4.

Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk<= /span>

wondering what the IETF mandated editor is= .
__________________________= _________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000978ca205cc5fbbe5-- From nobody Sun Sep 19 15:08:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38C93A0964 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:08:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S1qj8EKJ62N8 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:45:216:3eff:fe7f:7abd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC5FA3A0965 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd] (unknown [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19869AE269; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 00:08:38 +0200 (CEST) To: "Andrew G. Malis" , Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss References: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Message-ID: Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:08:36 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Markdown (was: Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 22:08:50 -0000 On 9/19/21 2:20 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Carsten, > > I've changed the subject line and cut down the discussion just to > tools-discuss to talk about markdown. > > I know that you're a huge proponent of markdown, and I've for one made good > use of that via Kramdown (thanks again for creating and supporting it). > > However, I do have an issue with markdown, and that's how ill-defined it > is, with what seems like a million variants (it's kinda like COVID - > everytime you look around there's a new variant on the loose). > > You've done a pretty good job defining the Kramdown variant, which is one > of the reasons it's so useful. > > But, for example, we all use other software tools that support other > variants. And it's not easy keeping them straight in your head (at least > not for me). > > So if markdown is going to be of any use for the IETF, I think we need to > well-define the "IETF variant". And that may be different from Kramdown, > since they have two different uses - one for general documents, like > minutes, and the other for drafts and RFCs. Or forget Markdown and use AsciiDoc, which was properly designed as a represention of DocBook, and so does not have a million variants. https://docs.asciidoctor.org/home/ https://www.metanorma.org/author/ietf/topics/markup/ > > For example, we may decide to use the Markdown variant supported by > HedgeDoc (see https://pad.gwdg.de/features?both for the definition and > examples), seeing as we're already using HedgeDoc. Or we might choose > something else. But I think we do need to decide, if markdown is going to > be of any use. > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Andy > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combination with a website >> like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussion in the IETF was >> about.) >> Asynchronous means not everyone had to be present at the same time. >> >> Synchronous collaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. >> Traces of Google docs and such. >> Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet and edit at the same >> time, but of course hedgedoc can be “abused†for asynchronous >> collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and asynchronous phases >> may alternate, a good git interface would be a highly desirable element of >> a tool for synchronous collaboration. >> >> The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a >> storage/interchange format for textual information (text is code). >> >> Oh, I’m talking about how my more successful students work, but the >> pattern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and has been). >> >> Sent from mobile, sorry for terse >> >> On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W wrote: >> >>  >> >> On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> >> the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference >> >> >> I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do >> collaborative editing? See RFC8874. >> >> Lloyd Wood >> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >> >> wondering what the IETF mandated editor is. >> -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Sun Sep 19 18:32:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D09B03A09D4 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:32:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=NS8HtZ86; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=X4C6ylK0 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lr9dKvOZ05cM for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 334723A09D5 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC095C010E; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:32:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:32:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=aWEaN+ieTLqI/lHXylVQWRoS8QjQkUi mbW6bDp9qbvQ=; b=NS8HtZ86XZ7+OeFAobxvun3Cra1y96/utKzuYqukWpoCX2m tKcPNcFtegx2rkqjFxPnc2q3Zfe6hnBsuU3TC8tfDHFHdYBoUT9UAyBqAG5tZCvL jx2PyTWmxMdl8kdzlZOl2QV2DE0YAcEbBNH6O/J8LwDvcBx4uOA7D0bGKJEWYEQY AmfG4PCtvVuTZ+bxOkKLeCr/YW/IxPY5tCpcwLKwVlk3eAaX78hF5rHjRBFU20qm 32B9Uy+5IBtgSVudq1Vy9z6eQB2vvtWfNtkTQeIe8o7l782Lg0OERsQVbtZfinqE /gVAsHqCTiNpk7ofvXubG3Gkufbl5rWK59e7H3Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=aWEaN+ ieTLqI/lHXylVQWRoS8QjQkUimbW6bDp9qbvQ=; b=X4C6ylK0Zi0aSO6X8ivPSt zUCD9qSIzmP2umOkHpb+SY9sqtrlUWqBZzflTjqpErtld9sxwl9nFkSbr4yZmpv6 VapiRZME/Jjsv7X/z4FUtR6MOyv3WwQbVqlMIelV+y5mypqYcLvp4J4skiz0OKbL bVxq53drrCV/Y7Cd4JvaglJnwHu4C1IVWM/d3Y+eT24XuLtYMmxvIa8HsGr6p5yn aynxsQU+Bf/SMPN5H9Px2czPQjhlCU9yNA/gwK89DgtmQ2I9KAOKZY4TNKNSn3j2 DieLKcR7jKyDig0sR6/hTY3q/82vyevpD9wPSTqV15kw+21hecJW32SwmVYEzmpg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudeiuddggeejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne goufhushhpvggtthffohhmrghinhculdegledmnecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffu tgesthdtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomh htsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepuedtudevkeff iefhveetjeevudduteefkefhuedtvdfhgfdtheeiteefheffgeeunecuffhomhgrihhnpe hivghtfhdrohhrghdpghhithhhuhgsrdhiohenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecu rfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id C29E73C05C6; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:32:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1291-gc66fc0a3a2-fm-20210913.001-gc66fc0a3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <1e8f8983-23c4-4f96-92d3-8a2f08ec27d9@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 11:32:00 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Robert Sparks" , tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Unversioned draft links (was Re: slow tools reaction) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 01:32:27 -0000 Thanks Robert, (Changing the subject as we are now way off the original subject.) Is there a resource that refers to the latest text rendering of a draft regardless of version? The only unversioned links I'm aware of point to the latest HTMLized version of a draft and its metadata page. I'm in the process of converting the links I generate to use this version of rfcdiff and some of the links I used to provide I find are now broken. For example, this is a link that used to be useful. Note the absence of a -06 in url1: https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-httpbis-message-signatures.txt&url2=https://httpwg.github.io/http-extensions/draft-ietf-httpbis-message-signatures.txt I can now fix the first part of that, but url1 remains a problem. (Maybe the fact that no one has complained about these links being broken is a sign that maybe there isn't enough use of this feature to continue supporting it, but I thought that I would at least try.) On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, at 12:44, Robert Sparks wrote: > Ah - I see at least one place where it leaks (in the instructions at the > bottom of the default form - I will be sure that is addressed. Thanks > for calling attention to it - if you see it anywhere else, please let me > know. From nobody Sun Sep 19 23:02:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86BB3A0F0A for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 23:02:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GveYqg5c22dM for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 23:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 226B93A0EFC for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 23:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host-188-15-16-83.business.telecomitalia.it [188.15.16.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HCYqk2hnyz2xGZ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:02:26 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-0834E7E4-F9C8-4B19-82E0-7982F9C6940A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:02:24 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss Message-Id: References: To: "Andrew G. Malis" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Markdown (was: Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 06:02:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail-0834E7E4-F9C8-4B19-82E0-7982F9C6940A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have limited typing this week, but a quick reaction: I know that the situ= ation with markdown is not ideal, but it=E2=80=99s what the industry converg= ed on. In practice, the damage is less than one would think.=20 Hedgedoc is a special case, as it uses hard newlines, while industry includi= ng GitHub have moved to soft newlines. But for note taking, this is actually= what you want. I have put the tool de-gfm into kramdown-rfc to automate th= e conversion. Some hedgedoc integration for something like this might help.=20= I have used asciidoc extensively in the early 2000s and like it a lot. But i= t is not something we can reasonably converge to=E2=80=A6 neither is rst or a= ny of the other island favorites. Markdown it is, if we want to collaborate w= ith this.=20 So we=E2=80=99ll need to learn to cope with its shortcomings. And write tool= s for that.=20 Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > On 19. Sep 2021, at 23:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Carsten, >=20 > I've changed the subject line and cut down the discussion just to tools-di= scuss to talk about markdown. >=20 > I know that you're a huge proponent of markdown, and I've for one made goo= d use of that via Kramdown (thanks again for creating and supporting it). >=20 > However, I do have an issue with markdown, and that's how ill-defined it i= s, with what seems like a million variants (it's kinda like COVID - everytim= e you look around there's a new variant on the loose). >=20 > You've done a pretty good job defining the Kramdown variant, which is one o= f the reasons it's so useful. >=20 > But, for example, we all use other software tools that support other varia= nts. And it's not easy keeping them straight in your head (at least not for m= e). >=20 > So if markdown is going to be of any use for the IETF, I think we need to w= ell-define the "IETF variant". And that may be different from Kramdown, sinc= e they have two different uses - one for general documents, like minutes, an= d the other for drafts and RFCs. >=20 > For example, we may decide to use the Markdown variant supported by HedgeD= oc (see https://pad.gwdg.de/features?both for the definition and examples), s= eeing as we're already using HedgeDoc. Or we might choose something else. Bu= t I think we do need to decide, if markdown is going to be of any use. >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 > Cheers, > Andy >=20 >> On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combination with a website li= ke gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussion in the IETF was abo= ut.)=20 >> Asynchronous means not everyone had to be present at the same time.=20 >>=20 >> Synchronous collaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. Tra= ces of Google docs and such.=20 >> Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet and edit at the same t= ime, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused=E2=80=9D for asynchronous= collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and asynchronous phases m= ay alternate, a good git interface would be a highly desirable element of a t= ool for synchronous collaboration.=20 >>=20 >> The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a storage/inter= change format for textual information (text is code).=20 >>=20 >> Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more successful students work, but t= he pattern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and has been). >>=20 >> Sent from mobile, sorry for terse >>=20 >>>> On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W wrote: >>>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>> On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term referen= ce >>>=20 >>> I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do co= llaborative editing? See RFC8874. >>>=20 >>> Lloyd Wood >>> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >>>=20 >>> wondering what the IETF mandated editor is. >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li= stinfo/tools-discuss --Apple-Mail-0834E7E4-F9C8-4B19-82E0-7982F9C6940A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have limited typing this week,  but a= quick reaction: I know that the situation with markdown is not ideal, but i= t=E2=80=99s what the industry converged on.  In practice, the damage is= less than one would think. 

Hedgedoc is a special c= ase, as it uses hard newlines, while industry including GitHub have moved to= soft newlines. But for note taking, this is actually what you want.  I= have put the tool de-gfm into kramdown-rfc to automate the conversion. Some= hedgedoc integration for something like this might help. 
I have used asciidoc extensively in the early 2000s and like it= a lot. But it is not something we can reasonably converge to=E2=80=A6 neith= er is rst or any of the other island favorites. Markdown it is, if we want t= o collaborate with this. 

So we=E2=80=99ll nee= d to learn to cope with its shortcomings. And write tools for that. 
Sent from mobile= , sorry for terse

On 19. Sep 2021, at 23:20, Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote:=

=EF=BB= =BF
Carsten,

I've change= d the subject line and cut down the discussion just to tools-discuss to= talk about markdown.

I know that you're a huge pro= ponent of markdown, and I've for one made good use of that via Kramdown (tha= nks again for creating and supporting it).

However,= I do have an issue with markdown, and that's how ill-defined it is, with wh= at seems like a million variants (it's kinda like COVID - everytime you look= around there's a new variant on the loose).

You've= done a pretty good job defining the Kramdown variant, which is one of the r= easons it's so useful.

But, for example, we all&nbs= p;use other software tools that support other variants. And it's not ea= sy keeping them straight in your head (at least not for me).

<= /div>
So if markdown is going to be of any use for the IETF, I think we n= eed to well-define the "IETF variant". And that may be different from K= ramdown, since they have two different uses - one for general docu= ments, like minutes, and the other for drafts and RFCs.

=
For example, we may decide to use the Markdown variant supported by Hed= geDoc (see https://pad.gw= dg.de/features?both for the definition and examples), seeing as we're al= ready using HedgeDoc. Or we might choose something else. But I think we do n= eed to decide, if markdown is going to be of any use.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Andy

=
On Sun, Sep= 19, 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten Bormann <ca= bo@tzi.org> wrote:
Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combina= tion with a website like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussi= on in the IETF was about.) 
Asynchronous means not everyone had to b= e present at the same time. 

Synchronous collabo= ration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. Traces of Google docs and= such. 
Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet an= d edit at the same time, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused=E2=80= =9D for asynchronous collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and a= synchronous phases may alternate, a good git interface would be a highly des= irable element of a tool for synchronous collaboration. 

=
The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a stora= ge/interchange format for textual information (text is code). 

Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more successful studen= ts work, but the pattern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and has be= en).

Sent from m= obile, sorry for terse

On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF<= /span>
On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Not= tingham <mnot@mnot.net= > wrote:

the purpose of the tool i= s collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference

I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed t= o use to do collaborative editing? See RFC8874.

<= span>Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk

= wondering what the IETF mandated editor is.
___________________________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://w= ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
= --Apple-Mail-0834E7E4-F9C8-4B19-82E0-7982F9C6940A-- From nobody Mon Sep 20 08:21:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38603A142E for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:21:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4VM4OGO9giHp for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2830C3A142A for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18KFLZVC066528 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Sep 2021 10:21:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1632151297; bh=k0TfNoul81US8JobFswVtIvoaDRtZF+TeGyuRDkC9ic=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=W9lvtMyBrEu5Aa8J3cU/tgFQ7DzHed6ijGF47D/ZMH27/PF7KvskxcfZ7GwOBMC08 d8eZIpi1m2zY5JVpQ1YUfBrmgp35foj5KixmHoU4FdsFJ3WsrneBP58Lglm/dM83bo HPpr6tdv38WL4SbKPwDeGJWv3QzKGaDCWCYzv7Qg= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Martin Thomson , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> <1e8f8983-23c4-4f96-92d3-8a2f08ec27d9@www.fastmail.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <7331dce1-22a5-1206-e87e-08d0dcc89d35@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 10:21:30 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1e8f8983-23c4-4f96-92d3-8a2f08ec27d9@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unversioned draft links (was Re: slow tools reaction) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 15:21:44 -0000 On 9/19/21 8:32 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > Thanks Robert, > > (Changing the subject as we are now way off the original subject.) > > Is there a resource that refers to the latest text rendering of a draft= regardless of version? No, there is not a good single resource for this, but I am in the=20 process of making one. See the thread at=20 You are, I think, stating a preference for {versionlessname}.{extension} = (and inferring format from extension) in whatever URL plan we end up=20 with in the long run vs {versionlessname}/{format}? Similarly, {versionlessname}-{version}.{extension} vs=20 {versionlessname}/{version}/{format} As a brief diversion, while thinking about this, consider the foot-wound = we carry around that is heuristic extraction of version given a string=20 that looks like aaaaaa-nn.txt. Things like this=20 =20 make for code that has to guess at what a request for=20 "draft-ietf-16-ng-ip-over-ethernet-over-802-dot-16.txt" means. We=20 heuristically solve this by looking for -802-dot version 16 first and if = we don't find it, we look for -802-dot-16 version latest. There's a=20 chance for harmful masking of a name here - fortunately we haven't seen=20 it exercised in practice. And then consider what horror we inflicted on ourselves with names like=20 review-ietf-taps-interface-13-artart-early-sparks-2021-09-17-00 and=20 charter-ietf-quic-02-06. RjS > =20 > > The only unversioned links I'm aware of point to the latest HTMLized ve= rsion of a draft and its metadata page. I'm in the process of converting= the links I generate to use this version of rfcdiff and some of the link= s I used to provide I find are now broken. > > For example, this is a link that used to be useful. Note the absence o= f a -06 in url1: > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-i= etf-httpbis-message-signatures.txt&url2=3Dhttps://httpwg.github.io/http-e= xtensions/draft-ietf-httpbis-message-signatures.txt > > I can now fix the first part of that, but url1 remains a problem. > > (Maybe the fact that no one has complained about these links being brok= en is a sign that maybe there isn't enough use of this feature to continu= e supporting it, but I thought that I would at least try.) > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, at 12:44, Robert Sparks wrote: >> Ah - I see at least one place where it leaks (in the instructions at t= he >> bottom of the default form - I will be sure that is addressed. Thanks >> for calling attention to it - if you see it anywhere else, please let = me >> know. From nobody Mon Sep 20 16:03:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115883A1410 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 16:03:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=Hfi/aWI1; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=qRmrpz/T Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6IRuqRnB230e for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 16:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E2D53A140E for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 16:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE925C00FB; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:03:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=Bw1ex4HBseCLKB/4c5wYsdSJjgw+zqo 53JoZ3J7pDNc=; b=Hfi/aWI1xgRYJa6uKWvP2SddrgoPwtFlh0dbXVtMfxIUkwu bOcV4hrvJ43dMzB2Cmwt75VvYozAntpqI1S/d5gjFyWRVB4Z8U/lBGUenJOIt/kU K8o1M6jXh1oOLdtmo+g8Lq8qug8mb6huS2p5R8+6GUjL6z4YtE1RNoWqto1n35ya 7tttOEVivt8reZyXytnxpwpUuPa4eq7LGjpiTJUc7GSAlPLzfFqqRZXIII8mXa5t l/L7WF5GursWqyLjbwepC+bA3SnYbzhKJwU2JKd/BFVCO30EHOuObA1JsH0eSPSp RhC05FXDsB54edFYB0Q470nRRxJcOQkvVgn5nBA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=Bw1ex4 HBseCLKB/4c5wYsdSJjgw+zqo53JoZ3J7pDNc=; b=qRmrpz/Ta9jCZrNKAlqZFE BlXbGH/EVwXGjynN03xV4yS/Jco4P8XetonMmvz9SiWkeHsX5WqS5WQbyFusinwm yghv7ZpbXfL0nHTbhUlc61mBbR0rhfQ7bE4qHEyZyDbqntZDDmHzfCtYTooTlgCw aP7vFchD78tyr52v27hAunrJEPVoE7q3oi1Hcb4HoxMFF9QaahtH0Gonb6j4Xufd k0YFHMzJe2js0x6KctCGusSlWigfVF7qHdXMa56Q7oW3N6E3kVZtnltlob/z7g2Z RSEDsu59CoBDi+NwED1KfMh9WsceWKgCT8Okq4LnskyW5+rr1xXdb06IeYQHbXrA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudeifedgudejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghr thhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecugg ftrfgrthhtvghrnhepleefudfgleegiefgueevledujeejuedtleegvdetheeuvefhvdeh gfegueffiedvnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhn vght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 946BE3C0F80; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:03:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1291-gc66fc0a3a2-fm-20210913.001-gc66fc0a3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <1496c035-da7f-4706-ba8b-c7a120c118b8@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7331dce1-22a5-1206-e87e-08d0dcc89d35@nostrum.com> References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> <1e8f8983-23c4-4f96-92d3-8a2f08ec27d9@www.fastmail.com> <7331dce1-22a5-1206-e87e-08d0dcc89d35@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:03:00 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Robert Sparks" , tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Unversioned_draft_links_=28was_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?slow_tools_reaction=29?= X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 23:03:33 -0000 On Tue, Sep 21, 2021, at 01:21, Robert Sparks wrote: > You are, I think, stating a preference for {versionlessname}.{extension} > (and inferring format from extension) in whatever URL plan we end up > with in the long run vs {versionlessname}/{format}? I don't have any firm opinions about the structure of the URL. However you decide to encode things, it will work out. (You could also use content negotiation, but that means telling rfcdiff to set Accept headers in a particular way.) > As a brief diversion, while thinking about this, consider the foot-wound > we carry around that is heuristic extraction of version given a string > that looks like aaaaaa-nn.txt. Yeah, that is a problem. I think that you might solve this one of a few ways: 1. Do a deterministic search, either specific first (treat the -nn as a version number to start with and seek that file, if that turns up nothing, then look for aaaaaa-nn-xx.txt) or the other way around. There should only ever be two for documents. 2. Make separate URLs for versioned and unversioned content: doc.ietf.org/latest/name/txt (or whatever) vs doc.ietf.org/draft/name-nn/txt (or whatever). 3. Make separate URLs for specific first and specific second searches. (Add the search order as a URI parameter.) There are so many ways to cut this. I think that it's best to give you freedom to decide as I have no firm requirements that might help narrow things down. I could offer opinions, but those are probably not helpful as they might differ from others'. > And then consider what horror we inflicted on ourselves with names like > review-ietf-taps-interface-13-artart-early-sparks-2021-09-17-00 and > charter-ietf-quic-02-06. Yes, that is bad. From nobody Tue Sep 21 00:29:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A327D3A011D for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 00:29:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fraunhofer.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uhCwXQeWDnq4 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 00:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-edgeKA24.fraunhofer.de (mail-edgeka24.fraunhofer.de [153.96.1.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 824263A0115 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 00:28:56 -0700 (PDT) IronPort-SDR: dJrb+MGGZfmi0AnskKNiEABPujA6ovB+dHF+O93EElvBqKg8+o/5LStVfgVoyR+1ev6aFjaRku hL0X6IO4/QuovukKKy8LyEV0CkWbcKLGMJVzZv1PjzqcCylL6eXTHIMQFfvX5sTHpaS7TZcMSh tAwc/zOzSDcKbMw6ciTfXw/nmFK5+jIkeGZY2L3JKsqsH06yG9tVSeZ/r4lausm61JQ7PMGOU7 ptv/nWNyAOjTkW7AIJUvlNS+ler0jxV3oJW3cZjwFpwF5usTPLECUd6WyNmyciV8M3lFRiDTGF n6o= IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3Am3Vblh3J3X8KamEosmDPS1BlVkEcU/3cPwMJ5?= =?us-ascii?q?Nwgkb0dOqig/pG3OkvZ6L0tiVLSRozU5rpCjPaeqKHvX2EMoPPj+HAPeZBBT?= =?us-ascii?q?VkJ3MMRmQFzAcOZBwv8NvG5JyA/Fd5JAVli+XzzOENJGcH4MlvVpHD67TMbF?= =?us-ascii?q?hjlcwRvIeGgAY/Oycqt3v20+5rdbh8OiDfuCY4=3D?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2HAAACoiElh/xoBYJlaHAEBAQEBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?BARIBAQQEAQFAgUgEAQELAYFSUX6BQoRIg0kBAYU5iAgDmlyCUwNJCwsBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEIASoLCgIEAQEDA4R3AjWCEgElNwYOAQIEAQEBEgEBBgEBAQEBBgQ?= =?us-ascii?q?CAoEghWgNg1OBCAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQUCQUcMMQEBAQECAQEBEBEVCAEBDCAMBAsLDgoCAiYCAicKASUGAQcFBgI?= =?us-ascii?q?BARkEAYJPAYJVAw4gAg6jDwGBOgKKH3qBMYEBgggBAQYEBIFKQUaCORhagVo?= =?us-ascii?q?JCQGBBioBgn+EBoMCg30nEIFVRIE8DAOCdD6CYgEBA4R0gmSHbYE5JwMnLCI?= =?us-ascii?q?NLCpATmAEnieBL51RLQeCBIErgTEGC4h/lAoGFCyFLpAvkSiWHIxEkzuFMAI?= =?us-ascii?q?EAgQFAg4BAQaBd4F/TSRPgjUBMwlIGQ+OIINyhRSFTHI4AgYLAQEDCYVJIYo?= =?us-ascii?q?OAQE?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2HAAACoiElh/xoBYJlaHAEBAQEBAQcBARIBAQQEAQFAg?= =?us-ascii?q?UgEAQELAYFSUX6BQoRIg0kBAYU5iAgDmlyCUwNJCwsBAQEBAQEBAQEIASoLC?= =?us-ascii?q?gIEAQEDA4R3AjWCEgElNwYOAQIEAQEBEgEBBgEBAQEBBgQCAoEghWgNg1OBC?= =?us-ascii?q?AEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQUCQUcMMQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QECAQEBEBEVCAEBDCAMBAsLDgoCAiYCAicKASUGAQcFBgIBARkEAYJPAYJVA?= =?us-ascii?q?w4gAg6jDwGBOgKKH3qBMYEBgggBAQYEBIFKQUaCORhagVoJCQGBBioBgn+EB?= =?us-ascii?q?oMCg30nEIFVRIE8DAOCdD6CYgEBA4R0gmSHbYE5JwMnLCINLCpATmAEnieBL?= =?us-ascii?q?51RLQeCBIErgTEGC4h/lAoGFCyFLpAvkSiWHIxEkzuFMAIEAgQFAg4BAQaBd?= =?us-ascii?q?4F/TSRPgjUBMwlIGQ+OIINyhRSFTHI4AgYLAQEDCYVJIYoOAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.85,310,1624312800"; d="scan'208";a="35745967" Received: from mail-mtaka26.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.26]) by mail-edgeKA24.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 21 Sep 2021 09:28:52 +0200 IronPort-SDR: Lm45OePe11TNZzZ/sM/yTzulyKY2+/0EFBvTMaqua7KBCKfs2bSXf/j7D9+wY5cO6tg2Xg0hu2 K6WCe7gZEdv1WySBTUtjrV9fPwPmpv0QM= IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3AcGfbwBfdKcBtLFY7Ezxv3zC6lGM/UYqcDmcuA?= =?us-ascii?q?tIPir9SfOKk5ZuxdEDc5PA4iljPUM2b7v9fkOPZvujmXnBI+peOtn0OMfkuH?= =?us-ascii?q?x8IgMkbhUosVciCD0CoLfP2YWo9BssRHFNg9muwZE5SHsu2blbOo3q0uDgVH?= =?us-ascii?q?Bi3NQd8KunvXIDIiMHizOGuvZPJahhOhD2zbKk0IBjlxTg=3D?= IronPort-Data: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3A9KjM56m2o3PcdNADB90qRSDo5gycJkRdPkR7X?= =?us-ascii?q?Q2eYbSJt1+Wr1GztxJMC2nSbvmIMGfyKIt2bYW19h5U7ZeAydJkSlA6rihgE?= =?us-ascii?q?ltH+JHPbTi7wugcHM8ywvUuxyuL1u1GAjUZBMxrHHLauDm3Nb3t8St12a2SH?= =?us-ascii?q?+WuE+/YfC5rTBJiSCAvhAgll+Ng2txkht2wAgWsv9LuopSDaQH/hGMuajoZu?= =?us-ascii?q?/CZtRdinPXuozdG7FYwUvB8ugOMnXciCp9Cd7q6KGH1Q9UPE+PjH7TDwbi18?= =?us-ascii?q?3n35RAoDt/5wL/3fldTHezJPBTIhGBfRq6ihRZPvGo+3/9jZvYbbE5WjRSPn?= =?us-ascii?q?sxwkYkc68bvFF1xZqCVwbYTSRhVFS16LJZqwr6fLCjtq9GXwm3Hb2DonadkA?= =?us-ascii?q?nY2CotEqOx5NmdDqK4DIzcXYxHf3O+7ze7pSuRogch/fsDnMJlF5yNlyjvYC?= =?us-ascii?q?ftgTIDIQ+PE/9ZF2jc3iM1UW/rTPpJLZT1qZRXGQhtOJlZOVMNgxrj13CGnf?= =?us-ascii?q?m0Ksk+RqIo2/3PXkF573o/rPYeHYdeNX8hUwhuVqz6U5Wj/GR1GZtWTxSDeq?= =?us-ascii?q?CD127SKzHy+Ad1MUePisOBvxlbVyHYaFRsWUlW2u7+1hxfmCd5YLkUV/Asor?= =?us-ascii?q?LQzrRD6EIOiAkfg+HPU7AQBX9dwEvEh7F3fwKTj5QvEVHMPSSRMaYB7ucI7L?= =?us-ascii?q?dDwOoRlpPu0Q2wy2FGpYSjFrO7M/GnrYXF9wVIqPEfocyNVu7EPn6lu1nojf?= =?us-ascii?q?v47eEKEpoWd9QPYmlhmnwBm71kntvPn4o3glbzxb5JAkbCSJuI9zl2/smtId?= =?us-ascii?q?WqVbqb9D2CjwQCzAfqtsO+kole9UHgsw6By7cgLCpuMkCHLTfUGHPen/f+YN?= =?us-ascii?q?j3bj1N1WZUsn9iv0yf+JsYBv3cnexkvbJxslTzBOCc/vStR6ZlQenGrd6x3Z?= =?us-ascii?q?IajI98r0e7uD934UPDTYNdUJJR8HOOC1Hg0ORTBjzmwzSDAlollYMvKK5vyZ?= =?us-ascii?q?ZoAMox7yz2yXKIR0KQg2zsl7WLeWZ69yA6ouZKEZmWNQK0GK3OIafsl9r6B5?= =?us-ascii?q?g7S9r53MteizxJAXevieC7P4MgVIExiEJSRLfgasOQOK7XGc1UjQT5/TqGLh?= =?us-ascii?q?60kPYcjkb5ci+HI+X+wQAlUxTLCabT8AV3iQhhehHnHAP6TdU4GABE=3D?= IronPort-HdrOrdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3Aw1WBSKtyjIm5MwWclbA/OGst7skDE9V00z?= =?us-ascii?q?EX/kB9WHVpm62j5qOTdZsgvyMc5Ax9ZJhCo7C90cu7L080nKQdieIs1NGZMD?= =?us-ascii?q?UO01HIEGgN1+Tf/wE=3D?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CTAQBviElh/z6wYZlaHAEBAQEBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?BARIBAQQEAQFACYE/BAEBCwGBUlEHTCtZJkOER4NJAQGFOYVkgiQDOAGaI4J?= =?us-ascii?q?TA1QLAQMBAQEBAQgBBCYLCQECBAEBhH0CNYIPAiY3Bg4BAgQBAQESAQEFAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAgEGBIERE4VoDYZCAQEBAQIBAQEQERUIAQEMCBgMBAsLDgoCAiYCAicKAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?eBgEHBQYCAQEZBAGCTwGCVQMOIAIOow8BgToCih96gTGBAYIIAQEGBASBSkF?= =?us-ascii?q?GgjkYWoFaCQkBgQYqAYJ/hAaDAoN9N4FVRIE8DAOCdD6CYgEBA4R0gmSHbYE?= =?us-ascii?q?5JwMnLCINLCpATmAEnieBL51RLQeCBIErgTEGC4h/lAoGFCyFLpAvkSiWHIx?= =?us-ascii?q?EkzuFMAIEAgQFAg4BAQaBdyWBWU0kT4I1ATMJSBkPjiCDcoUUhUxBMTgCBgs?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQMJhUcBASGKDgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.85,310,1624312800"; d="scan'208";a="124298155" Received: from 153-97-176-62.vm.c.fraunhofer.de (HELO mobile.exch.fraunhofer.de) ([153.97.176.62]) by mail-mtaKA26.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 21 Sep 2021 09:28:50 +0200 Received: from XCH-HYBRID-01.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.8.57) by XCH-HYBRID-02.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.8.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.858.15; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:28:49 +0200 Received: from EUR05-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (10.225.8.37) by XCH-HYBRID-01.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.8.57) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.858.15 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:28:49 +0200 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=LIt6EZj32GXSajeexnJRWI94emztDXz8lCX/cdRVHv3HRCgFMhJKjxHGrtKlrBhBxmKUNcBCcEl4MWn1lHSIfUGKeAmdvvCu9BT1qXS3WMEGdb49AeNqxJIGjO+emLdS65C7446efsTihV0QCaphUVl+vWwHerY60As8VvQdn6w3TQNvwN7gN77WWGNo3pPc/Aq4adSIN1D3yjXWxssTO/NRD6SsiLMn7ZACdWX0TlPq5NSTKSItB6szukIiMHKfsHZFo1PD1NC5/23XYUlPsuUWTWmcY1WGOvOIgAUUBnMZRWg8hAyBcjJJ2LLTuqhxOCcokxUA/i0UM4CpKbs1Lg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=k7uYEI7xDJNyqspBKU1f7mDlEoT/8HLDhGTdzqOXeU8=; b=Sl930A5CQCja5jkEl2C18PeGG+XXf2VJy5zC89FC3KEJDIyn6X3HJXaOwvrz22NYIF2mKnrtvw69pnbg424wliGZZ8OcnCPdEN93G583ZuDSlLEeoVhL6Bhm0V1Q7sJyp6dqD09oAZsbT/GeKdXWRtEj8LG+BXWHEXaV7tgPg7kygh0oZc801d5sTot+ji+1BaCXu5ENfbT2N6dCNjKiFJWsU7gSr/fAmC/xMhQ++lMpBCHqdrOhTR77JwvLeu7RLZzHwkOiQGVq1HAjuiVJsw+/ZaRT4oC8cS5lC+pcV74mdcG5eg0bEmPTXObxX6VM/mng3v1hcTd5xfMhtEtFFA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=sit.fraunhofer.de; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=sit.fraunhofer.de; dkim=pass header.d=sit.fraunhofer.de; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fraunhofer.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-fraunhofer-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=k7uYEI7xDJNyqspBKU1f7mDlEoT/8HLDhGTdzqOXeU8=; b=aoaMdB06luGDRjJRTCgjQ8nGFkz4nSlDy213kqrrqI9XeLWR2bo6BMYVh+ra35tEQdFhFaH6D5uqrS/dHEKaq4TUo0jjLqhHSIq7AqmjjIXigIkYqJUNGsm8QgRAJa/11gF/5FjaruKLgcx2qP7GMrcbRbeIdFOezYe0P879V1A= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=sit.fraunhofer.de; Received: from DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:276::9) by DB8P194MB0712.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:158::8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4523.17; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:28:48 +0000 Received: from DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::8c2b:841f:ce13:50ac]) by DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::8c2b:841f:ce13:50ac%5]) with mapi id 15.20.4500.018; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:28:48 +0000 To: Martin Thomson , Robert Sparks , References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> <1e8f8983-23c4-4f96-92d3-8a2f08ec27d9@www.fastmail.com> <7331dce1-22a5-1206-e87e-08d0dcc89d35@nostrum.com> <1496c035-da7f-4706-ba8b-c7a120c118b8@www.fastmail.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <28098b38-a2b9-4755-2efa-d33943715c36@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:28:47 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 In-Reply-To: <1496c035-da7f-4706-ba8b-c7a120c118b8@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ClientProxiedBy: AM0PR06CA0103.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:208:fa::44) To DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:276::9) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:638:708:300:18eb:262b:158a:a9fd] (2001:638:708:300:18eb:262b:158a:a9fd) by AM0PR06CA0103.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:208:fa::44) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4523.14 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:28:48 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 59c2597c-9a6d-4e63-1f56-08d97cd17404 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB8P194MB0712: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(508600001)(186003)(5660300002)(966005)(38100700002)(31686004)(66476007)(86362001)(83380400001)(8676002)(31696002)(110136005)(44832011)(8936002)(53546011)(52116002)(66556008)(6486002)(316002)(2616005)(2906002)(66946007)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?amYwaHJaWWo5bFZiWVd1MDVjQTZUZW8wejc4VXcxR1lGM3lCNjNFTmM5TCtC?= =?utf-8?B?aWQ1YnpGVER6QytESE42cktWcGpiQzQ3UUdFSEcrS3NiNVFBSmJFdmRrSUxw?= =?utf-8?B?SWdHQWc0Tjlnc2UxL3YrVGtUUWYzWjdObWxEdmsyRThCS2hRUEZKZGpzVVIw?= =?utf-8?B?aEk0b1VWRmlla2RIUlZpYUNnUmc0Si9uTjhuVWtyM0VZQzhkRm14WjI5dGJY?= =?utf-8?B?bVNnS1VOUWtOOWIyYkQwOXNYUGdRaU93VUF0TGpuYW5ZOFUybEplQlBkc05z?= =?utf-8?B?VkpBcE51MFMwUWpnZkVUakEycWhTRE5KNXN2Y1RCVUF2Wmx1ZW1MRVlmbk93?= =?utf-8?B?d3FIbFNydmVwQmgvUVRtSWFEVmdOdERwaUxsb1lUcDBvNFRjOExIMnViUlpo?= =?utf-8?B?V0lveVZOOWVmWk9aZnZRTjRTSGNOOEFBcWIreXFwYVRCTGtpcS95MXhnMWVC?= =?utf-8?B?a3hqei9XcDBzTVozaWh2enB5Mm01a0RHOEhEMmNaREdkRVFUeHhFUmhORmY4?= =?utf-8?B?ZVZDdnBvd1FUeTl4Ums1cEhjS1JQUWpuZy9rTU1ZSXVHcW94UVd2bE1PSEtF?= =?utf-8?B?c2xwOFkxd0Q4U0pFRkI2OFhvM3oxVDVjdWFqcGNQYTBjdU9WRlNYZlNneFFo?= =?utf-8?B?aFNrYThrbkFpNzBsRXp5djV6TjBEcXQxMnhtdEZyN0FjWTJLb25JbHBXVy9F?= =?utf-8?B?alYrc2tHZGxRYU0xcEZ2QzVKL3hFaXNTUFNWZm9jYkF0aWp0bDU4MFNmOFE1?= =?utf-8?B?VkFIcDh3Y1NnUm1HWXZ0QTlHMWtLbmx4bFU4U2ovQzVhMWU4Vi9SVVZBQ0ZI?= =?utf-8?B?cGV2SE0vZUdMZDdMRGRJblZJWWUzMFdtTU0vUFIwdWFUa2FTemkxazRYN0pk?= =?utf-8?B?cmF2eGNubDIzVGY4b3doUFhwMkJlU0NtbmNPSElyT21VbHZ2QXk4RitBMEZz?= =?utf-8?B?MXhZbThKREl0dnRRSHh4SHhaZHJsUnI3TTlRMnlXakFLZndGRjVXZHpTMU9z?= =?utf-8?B?Nk5OQUx2MFg2RU9BaWZtN2psSGhWalkyY0NNdHFYcG1LRTBnOXVCelMxUVgv?= =?utf-8?B?YzFxdVgxZmxzaW54aXk0TmlOQXFVV0hVTmROOHA2bWpVNC9lS0RnUHUvN3gx?= =?utf-8?B?YTAyTEN3dkFNKytFQW9yYjdmaXVvY3dKbGh2Sk9HTEJXbzZtVVloQjZqSUpY?= =?utf-8?B?QkhZYm9oaXM0aE4yRDFUTUNJaG9zK3NHcVRKcmNsdTdpbTNjMGFnZGQvMU5m?= =?utf-8?B?bzdRR0VhSWFaZWVqWDh2S1RNR3dFa2lUOFRucStQUmwvVnpTZ0YyNlJCM3U2?= =?utf-8?B?dGkxVitCNmYyelRIQmNVQ0MyMzhWVCtIM0lmNG9ZQU9NL0F2TGd1YUZTeHBP?= =?utf-8?B?VnhQekVqTEszVEdRU0UvTnZxY2VIdVliQ1NZY0FXM0RNM0tSL0FoNzlRUGlC?= =?utf-8?B?NHA0Y0kveU55RkRCVSszb2FZVkVsT1owWTU5Y2FSN3dHWGQxSHpRUWxyVTdJ?= =?utf-8?B?UEpGQ09ONWE4N09EWFBkUXM0REUwcC80eUVtWVRTMmFsOEs5czRpK0ZXUGJl?= =?utf-8?B?Qit3TjZPTGxHTFhza3ErbUN4YWphdEtGODYzNFFXZFZyZVhCMVg2UHdybEhi?= =?utf-8?B?czE3eGl3TXVRNW4wZFZpU3U5aXU0VEZ2dFZwRVZWaWpyTC9wZnA5YXNOdFBi?= =?utf-8?B?SWJzYmwzNkR5YTA0MUNOclRJMjhBdFMxUUc0ck9GY2U5NHdoNHlhR0RyTFlO?= =?utf-8?B?Nmh3VEpLT3VqUmFLODcxa2t3citqNWw1cFFnRnMyQzNwYk8vdjhDenRuM0xm?= =?utf-8?B?TlVJY2lYM25xTU5MQWxsZ3o0djdFQW5PWDM4N0l5dDJoclQxMGVVakgyeDNw?= =?utf-8?Q?/dS0OWsh7seUa?= X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 59c2597c-9a6d-4e63-1f56-08d97cd17404 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Sep 2021 07:28:48.7485 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: f930300c-c97d-4019-be03-add650a171c4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: HrufDcUJX7RwEmLihbApGr4j3t4EWHOCOK+T0BIutRlqnpEXUMfkMS6ukctE8CLTMMNc6Q+Ku0B01oqEO8s1dbbWIIAwQ2CXncx5ygumYHA= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB8P194MB0712 X-OriginatorOrg: sit.fraunhofer.de Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unversioned draft links (was Re: slow tools reaction) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:29:05 -0000 I can access this resource: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/01/ and as that is the current charter it also is accessible via: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ So there is some kind of versioning in the DT URL already, I think? On 21.09.21 01:03, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Tue, Sep 21, 2021, at 01:21, Robert Sparks wrote: >> You are, I think, stating a preference for {versionlessname}.{extension} >> (and inferring format from extension) in whatever URL plan we end up >> with in the long run vs {versionlessname}/{format}? > > I don't have any firm opinions about the structure of the URL. However you decide to encode things, it will work out. > > (You could also use content negotiation, but that means telling rfcdiff to set Accept headers in a particular way.) > >> As a brief diversion, while thinking about this, consider the foot-wound >> we carry around that is heuristic extraction of version given a string >> that looks like aaaaaa-nn.txt. > > Yeah, that is a problem. I think that you might solve this one of a few ways: > > 1. Do a deterministic search, either specific first (treat the -nn as a version number to start with and seek that file, if that turns up nothing, then look for aaaaaa-nn-xx.txt) or the other way around. There should only ever be two for documents. > > 2. Make separate URLs for versioned and unversioned content: doc.ietf.org/latest/name/txt (or whatever) vs doc.ietf.org/draft/name-nn/txt (or whatever). > > 3. Make separate URLs for specific first and specific second searches. (Add the search order as a URI parameter.) > > There are so many ways to cut this. I think that it's best to give you freedom to decide as I have no firm requirements that might help narrow things down. I could offer opinions, but those are probably not helpful as they might differ from others'. > >> And then consider what horror we inflicted on ourselves with names like >> review-ietf-taps-interface-13-artart-early-sparks-2021-09-17-00 and >> charter-ietf-quic-02-06. > > Yes, that is bad. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > From nobody Tue Sep 21 04:45:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BD513A0865 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:44:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QsjuxNXZk_nR for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C7B03A085F for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id s20so17860087ioa.4 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:44:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gm5rGfAxrUzE514BCtT4OlsSh6n1V4rUznyYnTkjybw=; b=bce6TcWcqk1IMQYRmWCwgrU8LW4eVkH4NKoHcJXHu4mYkRi1Cjw7F5CUnrisbR+6Ys sDz7xMxtI7J60GbpU6kgs3ojbl3k1BadP+5PH2Aw9EBK7Bi5Kp8ULXFYtSDsiEhvVOmM jIZDGvEFnmn5NssJUxcQS9oSRbcw7PLlCoxYBgGNJkk+sPP1MXmS5MmukBYXBn9mtzj4 nZBN4Bx90dBf8nfSgoqioj78wJEciO9756WKtANY+zyCmccRHLR5PFQTl0zww3HHiK16 ZWIAGCiJiayLTigIXbYeZJWV6h2ZPlEDLXHroIyLACk8qffB0iU/lGuzKByaSCnPP3zf bMYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gm5rGfAxrUzE514BCtT4OlsSh6n1V4rUznyYnTkjybw=; b=i/W8M5w1JtKC04t+9F4MlSfjSPgJazSmHSvY2Tni3nZGv5F1M/d/SEfnLttq3+gv2y UL2l4kMtBz9Mz9JzyIDT/ifn2WdO4TQAG4TWzqR8p23sklSda9XPD/VFoshRZQ/z5m8y DN3mOolcRgOSKm4z4b6dkj6tDpyO1KMliVSqhFGP0v7rGe1i7QG6Vi0ukqzB2nwoDSzh cZLWkgGmmaIyAsTfQm3nyUhdmL//+xp8HAaTpJh6SpPFj0QYsKrn7HUM+06n71+mrgO9 wnp8IwcH9rVhENGNMdbSOferqYIFlcYXH05HcPMOxShD+3PMOKXiJQdTQDnhvAzZsevR jNsw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532n7rpt2TZhrn+guuejw1mEeu8OCgQswpfBxo93EeIqJNV5tfto hSa8FNAcBy+GnJtZvHF0YIobkBw7Ak3FUrk5/f99avwb X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzQQpDRG5uRAIdodU/GM7AurrESgTERx+/QKHCXDuBMfJUc1fF7PZp4SjLNYxfhLb8dMPHct5PNi8zLP+eUoxQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:16d4:: with SMTP id g20mr23163553jat.22.1632224690946; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:44:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:44:34 -0400 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e5c72a05cc7fec67" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Markdown (was: Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:44:59 -0000 --000000000000e5c72a05cc7fec67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So this issue has just come up on the wg-chairs list, where Robert has proposed moving WG charters in the Datatracker from text to Markdown rendering, and there's now a discussion of which MD variant to use. Cheers, Andy On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 2:02 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > I have limited typing this week, but a quick reaction: I know that the > situation with markdown is not ideal, but it=E2=80=99s what the industry = converged > on. In practice, the damage is less than one would think. > > Hedgedoc is a special case, as it uses hard newlines, while industry > including GitHub have moved to soft newlines. But for note taking, this i= s > actually what you want. I have put the tool de-gfm into kramdown-rfc to > automate the conversion. Some hedgedoc integration for something like thi= s > might help. > > I have used asciidoc extensively in the early 2000s and like it a lot. Bu= t > it is not something we can reasonably converge to=E2=80=A6 neither is rst= or any of > the other island favorites. Markdown it is, if we want to collaborate wit= h > this. > > So we=E2=80=99ll need to learn to cope with its shortcomings. And write t= ools for > that. > > Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > > On 19. Sep 2021, at 23:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > Carsten, > > I've changed the subject line and cut down the discussion just to > tools-discuss to talk about markdown. > > I know that you're a huge proponent of markdown, and I've for one made > good use of that via Kramdown (thanks again for creating and supporting i= t). > > However, I do have an issue with markdown, and that's how ill-defined it > is, with what seems like a million variants (it's kinda like COVID - > everytime you look around there's a new variant on the loose). > > You've done a pretty good job defining the Kramdown variant, which is one > of the reasons it's so useful. > > But, for example, we all use other software tools that support other > variants. And it's not easy keeping them straight in your head (at least > not for me). > > So if markdown is going to be of any use for the IETF, I think we need to > well-define the "IETF variant". And that may be different from Kramdown, > since they have two different uses - one for general documents, like > minutes, and the other for drafts and RFCs. > > For example, we may decide to use the Markdown variant supported by > HedgeDoc (see https://pad.gwdg.de/features?both for the definition and > examples), seeing as we're already using HedgeDoc. Or we might choose > something else. But I think we do need to decide, if markdown is going to > be of any use. > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Andy > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combination with a website >> like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussion in the IETF w= as >> about.) >> Asynchronous means not everyone had to be present at the same time. >> >> Synchronous collaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. >> Traces of Google docs and such. >> Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet and edit at the same >> time, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused=E2=80=9D for asynchr= onous >> collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and asynchronous phase= s >> may alternate, a good git interface would be a highly desirable element = of >> a tool for synchronous collaboration. >> >> The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a >> storage/interchange format for textual information (text is code). >> >> Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more successful students work, but = the >> pattern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and has been). >> >> Sent from mobile, sorry for terse >> >> On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> >> On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> >> the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term referenc= e >> >> >> I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do >> collaborative editing? See RFC8874. >> >> Lloyd Wood >> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >> >> wondering what the IETF mandated editor is. >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> > --000000000000e5c72a05cc7fec67 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So this issue has just come up on the wg-chairs list, wher= e Robert has proposed=C2=A0moving WG charters in the Datatracker from text = to Markdown rendering, and there's now a discussion of which=C2=A0MD va= riant to use.

Cheers,
Andy


On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 2:02 AM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
I have limited ty= ping this week, =C2=A0but a quick reaction: I know that the situation with = markdown is not ideal, but it=E2=80=99s what the industry converged on.=C2= =A0 In practice, the damage is less than one would think.=C2=A0

Hedgedoc is a special case, as it uses hard newlines, while industr= y including GitHub have moved to soft newlines. But for note taking, this i= s actually what you want.=C2=A0 I have put the tool de-gfm into kramdown-rf= c to automate the conversion. Some hedgedoc integration for something like = this might help.=C2=A0

I have used asciidoc extens= ively in the early 2000s and like it a lot. But it is not something we can = reasonably converge to=E2=80=A6 neither is rst or any of the other island f= avorites. Markdown it is, if we want to collaborate with this.=C2=A0
<= div>
So we=E2=80=99ll need to learn to cope with its shortcom= ings. And write tools for that.=C2=A0

Sent from=C2= =A0mobile, sorry for terse

On 19. Sep 2021, at 23:20, Andrew= G. Malis <agmali= s@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Carsten,
I've changed=C2=A0the subject line and cut down the di= scussion just to tools-discuss to talk about markdown.

=
I know that you're a huge proponent of markdown, and I've for = one made good use of that via Kramdown (thanks again for creating and suppo= rting it).

However, I do have an issue with markdo= wn, and that's how ill-defined it is, with what seems like a million va= riants (it's kinda like COVID - everytime you look around there's a= new variant on the loose).

You've done a pret= ty good job defining the Kramdown variant, which is one of the reasons it&#= 39;s so useful.

But, for example, we all=C2=A0use = other software=C2=A0tools that support other variants. And it's not eas= y keeping them straight in your head (at least not for me).

<= /div>
So if markdown is going to be of any use for the IETF, I think we= need to well-define the "IETF variant". And that may be differe= nt=C2=A0from Kramdown, since they have=C2=A0two different=C2=A0uses - one f= or general documents, like minutes, and the other for drafts and RFCs.

For example, we may decide to use the Markdown variant= supported by HedgeDoc (see=C2=A0https://pad.gwdg.de/features?both for the definit= ion and examples), seeing as we're already using HedgeDoc. Or we might = choose something else. But I think we do need to decide, if markdown is goi= ng to be of any use.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Andy

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten = Bormann <cabo@tzi.org<= /a>> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"auto">Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combination wi= th a website like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussion in = the IETF was about.)=C2=A0
Asynchronous means not everyone had to be pr= esent at the same time.=C2=A0

Synchronous collaborat= ion: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. Traces of Google docs and s= uch.=C2=A0
Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet and= edit at the same time, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused=E2=80= =9D for asynchronous collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and = asynchronous phases may alternate, a good git interface would be a highly d= esirable element of a tool for synchronous collaboration.=C2=A0
<= br>
=EF= =BB=BF
On 16 Sep 2021, at 1= 8:32, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

the purp= ose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference

I thought github was the tool that the= IETF was supposed to use to do collaborative editing? See RFC8874.<= br>
Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
=
wondering what the IETF mandated editor is.
____________________________________= _______________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000e5c72a05cc7fec67-- From nobody Tue Sep 21 07:23:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9422D3A1866 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:23:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m4jqeQoBffA9 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94A1D3A1868 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18LENjYL067902 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:23:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1632234229; bh=JsJnll0W44/blNYTq5BlvdtPO7tVdk4gOA4vgDsbZ8o=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=MEfOzHp2YAzOIi0ZHrIm6dTKvNAjLWJWvksDJbuTqNVn7O5gPPEEhGgBLq1KEt0wz ybIa5Jt2DecvmfDh4S4rnaiw+bef33VLsoiviCEPI9iisb/yhascW44E+vRolnW/wT Soff3qZ8e953GtWaGU7cv/h0BIjh/UhxUwI9AayY= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Henk Birkholz , Martin Thomson , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> <1e8f8983-23c4-4f96-92d3-8a2f08ec27d9@www.fastmail.com> <7331dce1-22a5-1206-e87e-08d0dcc89d35@nostrum.com> <1496c035-da7f-4706-ba8b-c7a120c118b8@www.fastmail.com> <28098b38-a2b9-4755-2efa-d33943715c36@sit.fraunhofer.de> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:23:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <28098b38-a2b9-4755-2efa-d33943715c36@sit.fraunhofer.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unversioned draft links (was Re: slow tools reaction) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 14:23:57 -0000 On 9/21/21 2:28 AM, Henk Birkholz wrote: > I can access this resource: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/01/ > > and as that is the current charter it also is accessible via: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ > > So there is some kind of versioning in the DT URL already, I think? Yes, but it is a partial implementation - you can't easily ask, right=20 now, for _just_ the plain text (without the metadata), the pdf, or for=20 v3 docs the html generated by xml2rfc without the version. Being able to = ask for that first thing (just the plain text) is really needed for=20 things like rfcdiff. > > > On 21.09.21 01:03, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 21, 2021, at 01:21, Robert Sparks wrote: >>> You are, I think, stating a preference for=20 >>> {versionlessname}.{extension} >>> (and inferring format from extension) in whatever URL plan we end up >>> with in the long run vs {versionlessname}/{format}? >> >> I don't have any firm opinions about the structure of the URL.=20 >> However you decide to encode things, it will work out. >> >> (You could also use content negotiation, but that means telling=20 >> rfcdiff to set Accept headers in a particular way.) >> >>> As a brief diversion, while thinking about this, consider the=20 >>> foot-wound >>> we carry around that is heuristic extraction of version given a strin= g >>> that looks like aaaaaa-nn.txt. >> >> Yeah, that is a problem.=C2=A0 I think that you might solve this one o= f a=20 >> few ways: >> >> 1. Do a deterministic search, either specific first (treat the -nn as = >> a version number to start with and seek that file, if that turns up=20 >> nothing, then look for aaaaaa-nn-xx.txt) or the other way around.=C2=A0= =20 >> There should only ever be two for documents. >> >> 2. Make separate URLs for versioned and unversioned content:=20 >> doc.ietf.org/latest/name/txt (or whatever) vs=20 >> doc.ietf.org/draft/name-nn/txt (or whatever). >> >> 3. Make separate URLs for specific first and specific second=20 >> searches.=C2=A0 (Add the search order as a URI parameter.) >> >> There are so many ways to cut this.=C2=A0 I think that it's best to gi= ve=20 >> you freedom to decide as I have no firm requirements that might help=20 >> narrow things down.=C2=A0 I could offer opinions, but those are probab= ly=20 >> not helpful as they might differ from others'. >> >>> And then consider what horror we inflicted on ourselves with names li= ke >>> review-ietf-taps-interface-13-artart-early-sparks-2021-09-17-00 and >>> charter-ietf-quic-02-06. >> >> Yes, that is bad. >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:=20 >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe):=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> From nobody Wed Sep 22 16:17:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84EA3A0A6C for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fZv18ycydYUj for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AB973A0A68 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3605D46EBC47 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WW4WXc2pDeeo for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CE2CB46EBC46 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-Id: <507A1C41-0B73-4257-A16F-A6D03732E4E9@ietf.org> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 11:16:48 +1200 To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Plans for security audits and security auditors X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:16:58 -0000 As noted at the last tools call, Robert and I have been discussing a = security review of Datatracker with a contract, which we have since = signed a contract for. As explained at the meeting, this did not go to = RFP and I wanted to explain further our plans in this area. Going forward, we are planning for an ongoing program of regular = security audits of our IT systems. We anticipate that each year we will = have a couple of larger audits, such as a full code audit of a major = tool, and multiple smaller audits, such as testing new Datatracker = functionality In 2020 we issued an RFP for a code review of the RPC code, awarded to = ZX Security, and our original plan was to issue new security RFPs as and = when required. However, we have reconsidered this in light of the = complexity of our systems and the time spent developing a working = relationship, and we intend instead to appoint ZX Security as our = standing security auditor for a three year term from the time they = started with us until the end of 2022. During this period all security = reviews will be offered first to our standing security auditor and only = go to RFP if they are unable to meet our need. Towards the end of 2022 = we will issue an RFP for a new security auditor for a three year term, = which the incumbent will not be eligible to bid for and which will work = in the same way. =20 This form of fixed term appointment and forced rotation is consistent = with good practice for financial auditors. Please let me and Robert know if you have any concerns with this = approach. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Sep 23 06:41:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B993A3066; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:41:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ChtmEuDaNHTu; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA8063A3060; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122331.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18N9n3Ea018744; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:41:40 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=AcdT/wddkWSgS5IFQKy8rDwb1FLEAVVfh3fyEIPi3zY=; b=SJYuXGsbcH/Ev/v/ii4naDYqr/OZELsVScpYiWtxEGet+W9HcJR47fRfp1SMANLIqUQN BYZqgupo7HBSid6XrcK21vann9azknk/j+W78aTXK7SsAfv1SzZdbAeRNjVAWRPvF7FY i4cLr4jT52LDSx7ZXZsWrccv4nmL3Y+1HNY8afV3sWyyF0LXCTZrVlq+gEzFhT+ezB/P ol8CO8p2DAOEUKtjQ3faMHcUKo+/Ooiq87v0Ml7ihZxqxUy29ZECczrV0sDJTtghSGWn sCWq9q4EN9c1UOz3Ss8v5g/kB7+H1aqTXPPGOgX7+oAMpe+wh4MsLivaKovNn5EnnS6a qA== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint6 (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [184.51.33.61] (may be forged)) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3b8q9j4vka-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:41:40 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18NDZ6Ts023805; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:41:39 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.33]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3b7q7vtqqs-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:41:39 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:41:39 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:41:39 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:41:38 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Jay Daley , tools-discuss Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Plans for security audits and security auditors Thread-Index: AQHXsAf2/dCm8hI4VEWPysbdcVpaQquxoWcA Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:41:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <507A1C41-0B73-4257-A16F-A6D03732E4E9@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <507A1C41-0B73-4257-A16F-A6D03732E4E9@ietf.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.53.21091200 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-23_04:2021-09-23, 2021-09-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=732 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109200000 definitions=main-2109230085 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: nVWoGJ64KFzT9-Dz00zFV0ByKSwKd0fk X-Proofpoint-GUID: nVWoGJ64KFzT9-Dz00zFV0ByKSwKd0fk X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-23_04,2021-09-23_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=688 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109200000 definitions=main-2109230085 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.61) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Plans for security audits and security auditors X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:41:47 -0000 PiAgICBUaGlzIGZvcm0gb2YgZml4ZWQgdGVybSBhcHBvaW50bWVudCBhbmQgZm9yY2VkIHJvdGF0 aW9uIGlzIGNvbnNpc3RlbnQgd2l0aCBnb29kIHByYWN0aWNlIGZvciBmaW5hbmNpYWwgYXVkaXRv cnMuDQoNCkluIG15IGV4cGVyaWVuY2UgaXQgaXMgYWxzbyBjb21tb24gZm9yIHNlY3VyaXR5IGF1 ZGl0cyBhcyB3ZWxsLg0KDQo+ICAgIFBsZWFzZSBsZXQgbWUgYW5kIFJvYmVydCBrbm93IGlmIHlv dSBoYXZlIGFueSBjb25jZXJucyB3aXRoIHRoaXMgYXBwcm9hY2guDQoNCk5vbmUuDQoNCg0K From nobody Thu Sep 23 06:48:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607873A306B; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:48:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HOxdSeUXnAYD; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3F3F3A1FDE; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id p29so26527104lfa.11; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:48:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=q4Owj6sle3oZmcZ+rXfY6LR8rMVrqfnO56Ep6WiLWn0=; b=BkEYFtdjtdvqTzawEPV3pu1dfQ2nOHyH35t8mXa3DqenGpeoTXv1X8I5VuUDH45GA4 dj/w5j9l1S8ql7LRhDIRnheqvz5RmkT11pFZRVJFBG59o9KVUD6MPlnqeWfuSb7Yzyp4 XhTosWF6LukBOiUgRtHc+TUVFj0ltJpDo6r6RUcGDXZINjnMF+Tb6YEb4odLvvGPG++D ABbz56tKdt3jObv5xBsQM20yCurKt5XFFvDKM06XAViDdLWQmh+5eq8CuhyVaSi5bXH3 8TSeAMtCLh5cKzjUxKZKA6U9+44fz5hAnmsi3OwK8p31hJXr0WsYgNlwOyll4rafj2w9 PCLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=q4Owj6sle3oZmcZ+rXfY6LR8rMVrqfnO56Ep6WiLWn0=; b=cKMiP0XfIMvjQfQ5c3MxdiU/oTYf4noeX19Mi8F1Vw0zUgyD3Ai/bPXoURWADm5nZx DbLwpsdeA+5XuzM8QvPU/QLYUXYIrWISH6TyMmYD7HLgyKFKXhGvhnEkUC8slt+yz9ZO NiOfEe46hVngDh/RVmNIiYI9CdAV/ZsAYZEDhY3fUmNQ5Pn6j2iXvPsckwuKj0Y4a3Rq Lnalg/zdCLeW8lmFbVuHFNobL2H2eASYPvHFLRNUs4VnvPvBxpzP5ed538XcxmM+HVdT y6lzCgePQ67UZ5mkcajQvqOfwZXwg+py4ucX1KCdQr3u0zmuJUTur5Zwe9BTT0MI7emj YhjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532MpqEvgt7+ZR5H7CShw13sUTszdnits1FhwaC/Fj2fbCBsmOqR vQ53jfZ6ofdfd7SOUQQxLN0mrouk8dX46HVgPSjMbdbP X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz7vY7zxLMdj4bYstwJculWpGZFVB/mRGkrwQ+Zu/9Km+auYhZ75M8tVfLGJFLfv7rO/hXBNQhxW6UFs22wm68= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:54e:: with SMTP id q14mr5135785ljp.426.1632404901434; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:48:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <507A1C41-0B73-4257-A16F-A6D03732E4E9@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: From: Tim Wicinski Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:48:10 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Jay Daley , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004796ff05cca9e213" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Plans for security audits and security auditors X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:48:32 -0000 --0000000000004796ff05cca9e213 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:41 AM Salz, Rich wrote: > > This form of fixed term appointment and forced rotation is consistent > with good practice for financial auditors. > > In my experience it is also common for security audits as well. > > Strong proponent of this practice also. tim --0000000000004796ff05cca9e213 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:41 AM Salz, Rich &l= t;rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc= .ietf.org> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This form of fixed term appointment and forced= rotation is consistent with good practice for financial auditors.

In my experience it is also common for security audits as well.


Strong proponent of this practice also.

tim

--0000000000004796ff05cca9e213-- From nobody Thu Sep 23 12:51:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 349AC3A19CD for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:51:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ICLGmRnMMfgm for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x92e.google.com (mail-ua1-x92e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B4443A19C9 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x92e.google.com with SMTP id u11so5026650uaw.3 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:51:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZImQExMDLn4ZZ8FTMVJh0yKPh/88x1uASpJE2eTAZH4=; b=CklVONqpeJtAYqOixFG8AB9DUNEMP+cIoj0sXbbZa+RJwSsJ131WAPEuunWCoHeH/K LnA8gzMZSEHzCWxLxJba4XaXFYiMdNOhrIQOVDnDX32V6mTDIqs0rHBgZnWudLatu9Ml vcNDHfGtcqcGns9CNYMyvoZRzobkMKwLgVmATJZOQ47sole2mLmuOGFpZpX3H4zYU5ES YEmuA6LTW2jirQKkuaKvoBJIBzDsMdBGFeU0YY2OC/G9fQcmAmOM7KTjko2miN/OrY38 3ls5ijJdVfzO2FDTpylt1nXvb9fE7wibHb1u0yYBpt8Jfckf1i15FSzeK4/iCF/kXo7+ rdCg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZImQExMDLn4ZZ8FTMVJh0yKPh/88x1uASpJE2eTAZH4=; b=HGoJ3QgMXcYuVjjXDXaOKzbzkNzZIVOgI/es1AHJo+T7v5NNQow4ahkNZXlwoaNxEc Cn85KtaosoGtnL6y8EXQ98iBOGuVA9gWN5sLU4JZ0eRl8AsCXrP5ccSd2nwdzhGZKYuI PfI9idCErGPSLiyx7kkWYSMp32ZPJ0Ix67rt+ZjXwKLvG9txYflOVMLeWcOxj5c4FZJA xPIs2xy+d7LxwvxTe4ERcBNLYvwH3Sh7h67D0Kn6ZBT497xjZPxdMGOALdClPDNXe5Jy 2sWkbdWUdqdd/MDG9LqbKwtuBoCREuy2Jr99VzLSCVbRkEiWZNUMZeCYtI3Sb+KDaopt TTsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532/9ih7oHTfoi1LeC/oV5HxXcwvKOa5cMTXVy+8RP4ntmn/mwoh JlQB4L+HaH60Gw1Ky+ZfqUyyOnkOo4Y5Sy+cjTuppWd1XcQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyUcwWbf+63IkzqyuWEVZJ/AHrN3FVJao49ZbFefcBZ+FNGp6j5IlF4FyreVJ0nc8U3xJ8ZiyzBEorrRijuSCA= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:5448:: with SMTP id o8mr6114177uaa.59.1632426672601; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:51:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:50:46 -0500 Message-ID: To: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f1411505ccaef3a2" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] When I have a draft that doesn't target a working group, I break things ... X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 19:51:17 -0000 --000000000000f1411505ccaef3a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm happy to have the response be some version of "if it hurts when you do that, don't do that", but ... I'm working on a draft (hasn't been submitted to the datatracker yet) using kramdown-rfc2629 in github, and the I-D template tools. The draft name in MD is draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic-questions-latest. These are the weird things that I've noticed so far. Without trying to dig out when this happened, except when I submitted a similarly-named draft on September 8 ( https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic/), it wasn't happening then, I am now getting Discussion Venues <#name-discussion-venues> This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC.=C2=B6 <#section-not= e.1-1> Discussion of this document takes place on the mailing list (), which is archived at .=C2=B6 <#section-note.1-2> Source for this draft and an issue tracker can be found at https://github.com/SpencerDawkins/sdp-rtp-quic-questions. between the Abstract and "Status of This Memo". I'm guessing that one of the various tools is now inserting this, and is unable to figure out what the right mailing list is, because there's not an SDP mailing list (or working group/research group, or somewhere in between). (Here's the funny part - my draft is about SDP, which WOULD be in scope for MMUSIC, except that the RTP people in AVTCORE need to see it first, and I COULD send it to AVTCORE, except that we now ALSO have a "Media Over Quic" non-working group mailing list that was created after IETF 111 ... you see my problem, right?). This is probably somewhat related, but when I clone the I-D template repo and rename the draft, my CONTRIBUTING includes this: Other Resources Discussion of this work occurs on the sdp working group mailing list (subscribe ). In addition to contributions in GitHub, you are encouraged to participate in discussions there. Note: Some working groups adopt a policy whereby substantive discussion of technical issues needs to occur on the mailing list. You might also like to familiarize yourself with other working group documents . So I'm thinking this was the result of a guess that "sdp'' was a working group name, without checking to see if the working group exists. That's a similar problem as the first one, but it's not the same. Before I ask any more questions, should I be surprised by any of this? Best, Spencer --000000000000f1411505ccaef3a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm happy to have the= response be some version of "if it hurts when you do that, don't = do that", but ...=C2=A0
I'm working on a d= raft (hasn't been submitted to the datatracker yet) using kramdown-rfc2= 629 in github, and the I-D template tools.=C2=A0

The draft name in MD is=C2=A0draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic-questions-lates= t. These are the weird things that I've noticed so far.=C2=A0

Without trying to dig out when this happened, except= =C2=A0when I submitted a similarly-named draft on September 8 (https://datatr= acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic/), it wasn't happenin= g then, I am now getting=C2=A0

Discussion Venues

This note is = to be removed before publishing as an RFC.=C2=B6

Discussion of this document takes place o= n the mailing list (), which is archived at=C2=A0.=C2= =B6

Source for this draf= t and an issue tracker can be found at=C2=A0h= ttps://github.com/SpencerDawkins/sdp-rtp-quic-questions.

between the Abstract and "St= atus of This Memo".=C2=A0 I'm guessing that one of the various too= ls is now inserting this, and is unable to figure out what the right mailin= g list is, because there's not an SDP mailing list (or working group/re= search group,=C2=A0or somewhere in between).=C2=A0

(Here's the funny part - my draft is about SDP, which WOULD = be in scope for MMUSIC, except that the RTP people in AVTCORE need to see i= t first, and I COULD send it to AVTCORE, except that we now ALSO have a &qu= ot;Media Over Quic" non-working group mailing list that was created af= ter IETF 111 ... you see my problem, right?).

This is probably somewhat related, but when I clone the I-D t= emplate repo and rename the draft, my CONTRIBUTING includes this:
Other R= esources

So I'm thinking=C2=A0this was the result of a= guess that "sdp'' was a working group name, without checking = to see if the working group exists. That's a similar problem as the fir= st one, but it's not the same.=C2=A0

Before I as= k any more questions, should I be surprised by any of this?


--000000000000f1411505ccaef3a2-- From nobody Thu Sep 23 12:53:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 978373A19DF for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:53:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CcFlmjnJVS2Y for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B9F03A098C for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2155C548019 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:53:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 179274E98B9; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:53:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:53:32 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: tools-discuss Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 19:53:54 -0000 Wasn't there in the past week some notion of upgrading our mailing list system as something thats going to happen anyhow ? I was wondering if we could get a way to subscribe to IETF mailing lists that are supposed to have closed membership (who can write to the list), but whose archive is public. I think this applies to all directorates and maybe other lists as well. Without actually getting mails sent to such a list forwarded, its quite convoluted to poll such lists. Having an ability to subscribe read-only/non-member to such lists would be lovely! Cheers Toerless From nobody Thu Sep 23 13:15:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778B23A1ACE for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:15:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PQz26KEpc4UA for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A0003A1AE8 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0F248FE86E; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:14:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4YMDwmXSzeij; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1C6FA48C5D7C; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 08:14:50 +1200 Cc: tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 20:15:14 -0000 > On 24/09/2021, at 7:53 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 > Wasn't there in the past week some notion of upgrading our mailing = list system > as something thats going to happen anyhow ? >=20 > I was wondering if we could get a way to subscribe to IETF mailing = lists > that are supposed to have closed membership (who can write to the = list), > but whose archive is public. I think this applies to all directorates > and maybe other lists as well. Without actually getting mails sent to = such a list > forwarded, its quite convoluted to poll such lists.=20 >=20 > Having an ability to subscribe read-only/non-member to such lists = would be lovely! Use IMAP. https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/ Jay >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Sep 23 13:22:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32103A1B46 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:22:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4bz6omqRP9Ds for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0E973A1B43 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id i13so7970036ilm.4 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:22:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ckn6DIwv/Hbpuy4Ujza+9BuxByKRFxvMlj2D7sUJXQs=; b=rcp9LKLKIhcGWOHl2I9afM/WqX5os03dyLTR4z3ph8qkC/IP4oFXrvB0uWu1Imm5ip qdtej2HERbuxDE8MzbUfymfBmd3r6JSn0XX+JCRQcZKf8hvEwyhuiFOQHEzEEIaESFNG UT1wJlBIEg5UVzdeuL7HVDqpj5DZDhHBlpf4GIuLStZh+nud7GIJDhs316w5fXCDC1FS SE6Lb1AQutWHUYuY6/K6O0eMlkCAyCk/1mEaPHMUrrqYIOYPCzhe/dLFrCo2gc+4K6XO xcYXh12a3By8Rou9HqdV8KqcRobWyfVvcsLQvXdG/Sbc4Wu+2iKY0SiZKHfCm/RwYuV+ JXhQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ckn6DIwv/Hbpuy4Ujza+9BuxByKRFxvMlj2D7sUJXQs=; b=PFD6cfcpY4+G3tdPP6MOTh20vFD7HfqDaL0oFj58uI7nFQoQ3k+Ol5c+6bWail+5No +Eb889CnFXjAK68l1CO3xvpYpPAnbj5c9BVcc0z6QfJYlSnxdf3eJhblR8dFjAtxWbby tuiSyMtF5c0JZl/x6v48HZlbsYTkMPyxGM09Ve7kA8DbdM98hAADkAnx4KN8ruMSa4QH BO0NTvcW1aAevRCTvdnFBDoWFJHfSObXAnTAOgBbnYFQ0bytDV839LMlPQlOq8LagA7i 3xBS8FoojjB5HMsYRGvnIIMsEmGs2ZYi37vtWJ1Z33GQx/sm250Z8vIISFbcph0lxb1t K1dQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532pTrjfeCt1c+fB/lVegHZpGTMgRVGcx2h+qQwqrAG4fnPU3zg2 fsE3FT/c0cX2zLvNXixPBoBXyaTmNqUwcb4IET0iHA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyLvOIRBzEBf+HQdk3Lrb7ifayjpwaybjtt0Riv721iFUfiM4KIqFyWoxYDtG4nq/ID84KvBtbSXmH3QYdeERc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:134e:: with SMTP id k14mr5245201ilr.39.1632428559786; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:22:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:22:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Toerless Eckert , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006d7ab105ccaf64ed" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 20:22:46 -0000 --0000000000006d7ab105ccaf64ed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:15 PM Jay Daley wrote: > > > > On 24/09/2021, at 7:53 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > Wasn't there in the past week some notion of upgrading our mailing list > system > > as something thats going to happen anyhow ? > > > > I was wondering if we could get a way to subscribe to IETF mailing lists > > that are supposed to have closed membership (who can write to the list), > > but whose archive is public. I think this applies to all directorates > > and maybe other lists as well. Without actually getting mails sent to > such a list > > forwarded, its quite convoluted to poll such lists. > > > > Having an ability to subscribe read-only/non-member to such lists would > be lovely! > > Use IMAP. https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/ Hi Jay, FWIW, I don't actually think that this is as important a function as Toerless does, but if we *do* think it's important, I don't think "use IMAP" is a reasonable answer, given the large number of people who use Webmail. -Ekr > > Jay > > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --0000000000006d7ab105ccaf64ed Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:15 PM Jay D= aley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

> On 24/09/2021, at 7:53 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
>
> Wasn't there in the past week some notion of upgrading our mailing= list system
> as something thats going to happen anyhow ?
>
> I was wondering if we could get a way to subscribe to IETF mailing lis= ts
> that are supposed to have closed membership (who can write to the list= ),
> but whose archive is public. I think this applies to all directorates<= br> > and maybe other lists as well. Without actually getting mails sent to = such a list
> forwarded, its quite convoluted to poll such lists.
>
> Having an ability to subscribe read-only/non-member to such lists woul= d be lovely!

Use IMAP.=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/
=
Hi Jay,

FWIW, I don't actually = think that this is as important a function as Toerless does, but if
we *do* think it's important, I don't think "use IMAP"= is a reasonable answer, given the
large number of people who use= Webmail.

-Ekr



Jay

>
> Cheers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org<= br> > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@i= etf.org

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--0000000000006d7ab105ccaf64ed-- From nobody Thu Sep 23 13:28:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E8E3A162A; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:28:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Q9xlPMxGeEQ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 202FA3A0E32; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CD96548003; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:28:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 2F0244E98BA; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:28:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:28:35 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Jay Daley , tools-discuss Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 20:28:47 -0000 Polling mailing lists via imap also looks time-consuming for the client i have. Not sure if/how there are better options to pull new mails from such mailing lists. I Tried to cut down on local copies of IETF mailing lists, but opening a mailing list via IMAP Dacan take minutes, depending of how long the list is. On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 01:22:03PM -0700, Eric Rescorla wrote: > On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:15 PM Jay Daley wrote: > > > > > > > > On 24/09/2021, at 7:53 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > > Wasn't there in the past week some notion of upgrading our mailing list > > system > > > as something thats going to happen anyhow ? > > > > > > I was wondering if we could get a way to subscribe to IETF mailing lists > > > that are supposed to have closed membership (who can write to the list), > > > but whose archive is public. I think this applies to all directorates > > > and maybe other lists as well. Without actually getting mails sent to > > such a list > > > forwarded, its quite convoluted to poll such lists. > > > > > > Having an ability to subscribe read-only/non-member to such lists would > > be lovely! > > > > Use IMAP. https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/ > > > Hi Jay, > > FWIW, I don't actually think that this is as important a function as > Toerless does, but if > we *do* think it's important, I don't think "use IMAP" is a reasonable > answer, given the > large number of people who use Webmail. > > -Ekr > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > > datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > > > > -- > > Jay Daley > > IETF Executive Director > > exec-director@ietf.org > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Sep 23 13:36:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B673A1BFB for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:36:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A5nxs2ireWQl for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA3E23A1BFA for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF62848FE878; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:35:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2yy2s6wqV-wG; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E97D548FE864; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:35:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <405516BB-4292-4EC7-A8F7-0AC7EEB24355@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A1ACC624-3692-4244-9C52-200007E6EE55" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 08:35:50 +1200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Toerless Eckert , tools-discuss To: Eric Rescorla References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 20:36:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A1ACC624-3692-4244-9C52-200007E6EE55 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 24/09/2021, at 8:22 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:15 PM Jay Daley > wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On 24/09/2021, at 7:53 AM, Toerless Eckert > wrote: > >=20 > > Wasn't there in the past week some notion of upgrading our mailing = list system > > as something thats going to happen anyhow ? > >=20 > > I was wondering if we could get a way to subscribe to IETF mailing = lists > > that are supposed to have closed membership (who can write to the = list), > > but whose archive is public. I think this applies to all = directorates > > and maybe other lists as well. Without actually getting mails sent = to such a list > > forwarded, its quite convoluted to poll such lists.=20 > >=20 > > Having an ability to subscribe read-only/non-member to such lists = would be lovely! >=20 > Use IMAP. https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/ = >=20 > Hi Jay, >=20 > FWIW, I don't actually think that this is as important a function as = Toerless does, but if > we *do* think it's important, I don't think "use IMAP" is a reasonable = answer, given the > large number of people who use Webmail. OK. I=E2=80=99m working on a requirements document for new tools = functionality for people to manage their email subscriptions and I=E2=80=99= ll add being able to subscribe to a "closed but public" list in = read-only mode to that (though I do not know if it is possible). Jay >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 >=20 > Jay >=20 > >=20 > > Cheers > > Toerless > >=20 > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org = > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: = webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org = > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss = > >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org = > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: = webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org = > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_A1ACC624-3692-4244-9C52-200007E6EE55 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 24/09/2021, at 8:22 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> = wrote:



On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at = 1:15 PM Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:


> On 24/09/2021, at 7:53 AM, Toerless = Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> 
> Wasn't = there in the past week some notion of upgrading our mailing list = system
> as something thats going to happen anyhow ?
> 
> I was wondering if we could get a way to subscribe to = IETF mailing lists
> that are supposed to have closed = membership (who can write to the list),
> but whose = archive is public. I think this applies to all directorates
> and maybe other lists as well. Without actually getting = mails sent to such a list
> forwarded, its quite = convoluted to poll such lists. 
> 
> Having = an ability to subscribe read-only/non-member to such lists would be = lovely!

Use IMAP.  https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/

Hi Jay,

FWIW, I don't actually = think that this is as important a function as Toerless does, but = if
we *do* think it's important, I don't think "use = IMAP" is a reasonable answer, given the
large = number of people who use Webmail.

OK.  I=E2=80=99m working on a requirements = document for new tools functionality for people to manage their email = subscriptions and I=E2=80=99ll add being able to subscribe to a "closed = but public" list in read-only mode to that (though I do not know if it = is possible).

Jay


-Ekr



Jay

> 
> Cheers
>    Toerless
> 
> = ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is = for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
>= * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
> * = Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all = other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info = (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for = discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* = Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other = bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including = how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_A1ACC624-3692-4244-9C52-200007E6EE55-- From nobody Thu Sep 23 14:13:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C5B23A1DF9 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:13:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=KqEvdR0C; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=u/eOGlhF Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zagl8-VuvZDC for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 106FD3A1DF3 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24578 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2021 21:13:00 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=5ffd.614ceddc.k2109; bh=ij8kUKmiI5ewJO9gIfmklBbzwJjCvW7BGrAEmjQQjlc=; b=KqEvdR0C9mNugO/geGjX4t8oV9aVz6Gp9O/hHgCaYCzruOhCe7D+cfReJBf0C1k83XXT3PRm7ioYVJqDcObrDs/IsgvyWBbxhJ3cQCx5CiTZZwg97O1Bv8jCyKGtiKI3Sg/R9VqM3WW/G4nX3uPi9Td4pb/sSXYGpSG2kbCnR/naeAYcPTlXPNGLTETs7pX7zdU+zhlmitPNkT/3iiW2pjCtvZ31gO25UxRIH6zC1oYt4PhgeogWs4zBLBmT8Uny4wseUPd47EI1wgGfP9wkypth5UQLWUD0glpusKrDsoEh2/L93x6pmd1b59hbA3nflngVVM7PikSNzu5NH6orLQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=5ffd.614ceddc.k2109; bh=ij8kUKmiI5ewJO9gIfmklBbzwJjCvW7BGrAEmjQQjlc=; b=u/eOGlhFkliNXb+P1WJSwQFij0wQI2r3giG0/voH2Q+6kvddh5H9/sqxa+APEK1H8BCBeKn+NufVzyOTyqde+X8Lzjt/VivH7jeBjn9nA0iiiY1fTBc36hvb1G43aPaYQc2P+MM4pV2CTD7yEskRpco9iQnpn37HN7p2xPXDT0AjQI8Vq3bCLyeay3XQtW3abPfammZyymC9d5hMWq8fteOUYqWaAxv0T7B65xuDVeVhxUEyNBtOCVx4geYwSB9inKJxwImwoQH3xIugGlMLrudmmlWeuXPeGQeeL+OX91Yrmk/X4rz5FqUXUC99AUuzGAQo8bdYR5qlN/sgu/0qqg== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 23 Sep 2021 21:13:00 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id B42C2293775B; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:12:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: 23 Sep 2021 17:12:59 -0400 Message-Id: <20210923211259.B42C2293775B@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:13:08 -0000 >such mailing lists. I Tried to cut down on local copies of IETF mailing >lists, but opening a mailing list via IMAP Dacan take minutes, depending >of how long the list is. I read IETF lists by copying mail from the IMAP folders to a local news server. It is a small python script, which uses the standard python IMAP libraries, and it can scan 75 lists and copy the new messages in under a minute, that is, less than a second per list. Perhaps you could look for an IMAP client with reasonable performance, rather than asking us to duplicate the existing perfectly functional service. I suppose for the webmail crowd it wouldn't be hard to set up a POP proxy in front of the IMAP server and people could tell their webmail service to poll it. That works well in Gmail which seems to be the webmail that most people use. R's, John From nobody Thu Sep 23 14:28:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DFD43A1DAE for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:28:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bNSY42S_2gTE for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA9693A19BB for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76863548019; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:27:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 63F284E98BB; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:27:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:27:53 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: John Levine Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <20210923211259.B42C2293775B@ary.qy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20210923211259.B42C2293775B@ary.qy> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:28:05 -0000 Why do we then have the option for any IETF mailing list to subscribe to it through email ? Why shouldn't everybody use IMAP to receive all his/her ietf emails ? I don't see the difference. I think we always need a push subscription model. IMAP is pull/poll. On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 05:12:59PM -0400, John Levine wrote: > > >such mailing lists. I Tried to cut down on local copies of IETF mailing > >lists, but opening a mailing list via IMAP Dacan take minutes, depending > >of how long the list is. > > I read IETF lists by copying mail from the IMAP folders to a local > news server. It is a small python script, which uses the standard > python IMAP libraries, and it can scan 75 lists and copy the new > messages in under a minute, that is, less than a second per list. > > Perhaps you could look for an IMAP client with reasonable performance, > rather than asking us to duplicate the existing perfectly functional > service. > > I suppose for the webmail crowd it wouldn't be hard to set up a POP > proxy in front of the IMAP server and people could tell their webmail > service to poll it. That works well in Gmail which seems to be the > webmail that most people use. > > R's, > John -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Sep 23 14:40:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C1EB3A1F88 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:40:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=Ne8FVNNH; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=DlHZ3Mql Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QRXHDLxAFBey for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 125743A1F85 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 30759 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2021 21:40:19 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=7825.614cf443.k2109; bh=HkJfgx3xUs2+BWTNBbHM4sveazdrGi46nL7crS+pqV4=; b=Ne8FVNNHe6t6Z0Y0XWBPBVKevqxwKAEkNNFr1g1BcRdHLSalaHGCL+0GSQj25eHuNgEcmPFDceNJ6v2CnW3TX2nfzB0yfoaXz2ADoGDKf8f8txLsoJsZFJQ7r0yKo4CTuRjxf2kSkt5m4c61hJd1qa1Hc6ZUWCX9X1ikPnrt8ifqLd7P+x0v+iQ0q6bqp0Dpb1lRB49Y9jt5WgUZEmJUqe3Bg7NPI5y83Kc/qOe1ESGEdA17OhfBOdgdzq2CxI7JkpOVNx15HCm3LhdvdwZEDYawvtPCjyqaXMhc/mTg77jNeRY7Wopo9zJq1t3HVEkqrcELnS3zVR3zuVmJzkux1w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=7825.614cf443.k2109; bh=HkJfgx3xUs2+BWTNBbHM4sveazdrGi46nL7crS+pqV4=; b=DlHZ3Mql9kemlnzscayAW8bcJS46jfEJ8ZL24Sz0vugpIXEqnuqQHJHoQi9njQStJAWzcNena0URBjWQXLsD6AfIJtV+j5pGeZqH/CH0XnqkPul+YiFYVDrvOnvY1GD51ti7yYVm0dfcV/4Ets9IyVP5Ohot64z6nN7/Sb8Qg8pQNLlQJbjkGYe133wYEKJ+mnmPo3x9akQMa5gkgxptgTTq0lMrUdqw84H2Hvj3kyH7SR3HszdlcRpz6BltJc5O/Dw+MRpUBm/cgp34Ikjvu7AK71/V1xZJRPvB7N2Wi7DjlIRJ6UK+WkziI/j7BDhLNqKpbJN5OUV/aFYLn4yemQ== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 23 Sep 2021 21:40:18 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8BBFF2937E64; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38752937E45; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: 23 Sep 2021 17:40:16 -0400 Message-ID: <2add4d8f-1f7d-5589-fbd9-d4ba7b852b45@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Toerless Eckert" Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: References: <20210923211259.B42C2293775B@ary.qy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:40:27 -0000 > Why do we then have the option for any IETF mailing list to > subscribe to it through email ? Why shouldn't everybody use > IMAP to receive all his/her ietf emails ? I dunno. There's a lot of mail systems where everyone reads all their mail with IMAP. > I don't see the difference. I think we always need a push > subscription model. IMAP is pull/poll. We have one for our regular mail. You're asking to provide a special case, read-only access to semi-public lists, WHICH IMAP ALREADY PROVIDES. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Thu Sep 23 14:48:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE403A1FF2 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:48:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W2gDt_EmlLeK for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3B943A1FEF for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE01354805D; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:48:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id AB11E4E98BB; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:48:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:48:39 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: John R Levine Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <20210923211259.B42C2293775B@ary.qy> <2add4d8f-1f7d-5589-fbd9-d4ba7b852b45@taugh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2add4d8f-1f7d-5589-fbd9-d4ba7b852b45@taugh.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:48:51 -0000 On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 05:40:16PM -0400, John R Levine wrote: > > Why do we then have the option for any IETF mailing list to > > subscribe to it through email ? Why shouldn't everybody use > > IMAP to receive all his/her ietf emails ? > > I dunno. There's a lot of mail systems where everyone reads all their mail > with IMAP. Yes, but not to read emails on mail boxes with 10,000 messages or more and a TCP connection across the globe. > > I don't see the difference. I think we always need a push > > subscription model. IMAP is pull/poll. > > We have one for our regular mail. You're asking to provide a special case, > read-only access to semi-public lists, WHICH IMAP ALREADY PROVIDES. I bet if you ask how most IETF participants read IETF mailing list mails, i bet it will be through subscription to the mailing list, getting those emails into their mail box. So when we created mailing lists you can not send email to, we simply forgot to make them work for reading in the same way that most IETF participants like to read emails. Cheers Toerless > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Thu Sep 23 15:44:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B060C3A0A8D for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:44:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cvWL5Dadu_by for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D9203A0AE1 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18NLc9Dv003690; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:44:03 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=yjuuOUjo4Hn9m2QDdkprlYWFZS31/acWQ8VB6evg0pU=; b=nF1kNO6hS8FT7xSs5vqCKZBxHNpjPw62EYXH4Wx4/ozBubLe+p5qsi7D+/ixsOZoFJEk WrsjmeUdeFkZi6E7MNWi+eQncju8zwoj1BSPDAd1/WmOSFAbeLemJFq/FYAzMi9h4iAM ZENHGAdxZrP9u+1ygv/jVs/tRWn93w4R4vbN5bsVxliV4CwXhCY0EDI8vz2C2Dh2i1Nx HYI6GFtSnE5tNZRXnqtHXFUjt0iwk68pmUi0hxo3nSVnqI4Ptt6aUciyyvk7EuscSx4x fvIfRY/Ycro+K/lI4vQ0s/nDkYQ3UQ0gAIgkalQ4bbjhjPDCYqZl6jJrdwMYXwf7zxDc Jw== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint6 (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [184.51.33.61] (may be forged)) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 3b91nxs960-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:44:03 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18NMYfPJ028425; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:44:01 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.57]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3b91v2g230-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:44:01 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:44:01 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:44:01 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "Tools Team Discussion" Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] When I have a draft that doesn't target a working group, I break things ... Thread-Index: AQHXsLRkS44UwPaKlEmMVlGVwEXNV6uyN5cA Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:44:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.53.21091200 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_A270FDB198E444E1A395DF41FC4C2604akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-23_06:2021-09-23, 2021-09-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230000 definitions=main-2109230131 X-Proofpoint-GUID: NPutnia8SlJgs7qlfsxpjSIQq2E-9qfL X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: NPutnia8SlJgs7qlfsxpjSIQq2E-9qfL X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-23_06,2021-09-23_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230000 definitions=main-2109230132 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] When I have a draft that doesn't target a working group, I break things ... X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:44:23 -0000 --_000_A270FDB198E444E1A395DF41FC4C2604akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBWZW51ZXMNCg0KVGhpcyBub3RlIGlzIHRvIGJlIHJlbW92ZWQgYmVmb3JlIHB1 Ymxpc2hpbmcgYXMgYW4gUkZDLsK2DQoNCkRpc2N1c3Npb24gb2YgdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCB0YWtl cyBwbGFjZSBvbiB0aGUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0ICgpLCB3aGljaCBpcyBhcmNoaXZlZCBhdCAuwrYN Cg0KU291cmNlIGZvciB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0IGFuZCBhbiBpc3N1ZSB0cmFja2VyIGNhbiBiZSBmb3Vu ZCBhdCBodHRwczovL2dpdGh1Yi5jb20vU3BlbmNlckRhd2tpbnMvc2RwLXJ0cC1xdWljLXF1ZXN0 aW9uczxodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UuY29tL3YzL19faHR0cHM6L2dpdGh1Yi5jb20vU3BlbmNl ckRhd2tpbnMvc2RwLXJ0cC1xdWljLXF1ZXN0aW9uc19fOyEhR2p2VHpfdmshSEliLU5yYVdWOXFG UzAwTzRHOWd4aUZQR0VaX1BNU0JXdzhUbU56dTQ4QVZqVDBQeVNZX2VBOGFHVGNkJD4uDQoNCkRp ZCB5b3UgKGNoYW5nZSB0bz8pIHVzaW5nIE1hcnRpbuKAmXMgaS1kLXRlbXBhdGUgdG9vbHM/ICBJ dCBjcmVhdGVzIGFuIGluaXRpYWwgLm5vdGUueG1sIGZpbGUgd2hpY2ggeW91IHNob3VsZCBlZGl0 Lg0KDQoNCiAgKiAgIEJlZm9yZSBJIGFzayBhbnkgbW9yZSBxdWVzdGlvbnMsIHNob3VsZCBJIGJl IHN1cnByaXNlZCBieSBhbnkgb2YgdGhpcz8NCg0KQXMgd2l0aCBtYW55IHRoaW5ncywgZ2V0dGlu ZyBhbGwgdGhlIGNvcm5lciBjYXNlcyByaWdodCBkZXBlbmRzIG9uIHRob3NlIGNvcm5lciBjYXNl cyBzaG93aW5nIHVwIGluIHRoZSB0b29s4oCZcyB1c2FnZS4gIEFzIGZvciB3aGV0aGVyIG9yIG5v dCB5b3Ugc2hvdWxkIGJlIHN1cnByaXNlZCwgdGhhdOKAmXMgeW91ciBjYWxsIDopDQo= --_000_A270FDB198E444E1A395DF41FC4C2604akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <7D7513614F679C4DA09FDAD4943F23DE@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6NSAwIDAgMCAwIDAgMCAwIDAg MDt9DQpAZm9udC1mYWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYW1icmlhIE1hdGgiOw0KCXBhbm9zZS0x OjIgNCA1IDMgNSA0IDYgMyAyIDQ7fQ0KQGZvbnQtZmFjZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseTpDYWxpYnJp Ow0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjIgMTUgNSAyIDIgMiA0IDMgMiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1m YW1pbHk6IlNlZ29lIFVJIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDExIDYgNCAyIDIgMiAyIDIgNDt9DQovKiBT dHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3JtYWwsIGxpLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgZGl2Lk1zb05v cm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGluOw0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNh bGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0KaDINCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXByaW9yaXR5Ojk7DQoJbXNvLXN0 eWxlLWxpbms6IkhlYWRpbmcgMiBDaGFyIjsNCgltc28tbWFyZ2luLXRvcC1hbHQ6YXV0bzsNCglt YXJnaW4tcmlnaHQ6MGluOw0KCW1zby1tYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tLWFsdDphdXRvOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1s ZWZ0OjBpbjsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTguMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIixzYW5z LXNlcmlmOw0KCWZvbnQtd2VpZ2h0OmJvbGQ7fQ0KYTpsaW5rLCBzcGFuLk1zb0h5cGVybGluaw0K CXttc28tc3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6OTk7DQoJY29sb3I6Ymx1ZTsNCgl0ZXh0LWRlY29yYXRpb246 dW5kZXJsaW5lO30NCnAuTXNvTGlzdFBhcmFncmFwaCwgbGkuTXNvTGlzdFBhcmFncmFwaCwgZGl2 Lk1zb0xpc3RQYXJhZ3JhcGgNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXByaW9yaXR5OjM0Ow0KCW1hcmdpbi10b3A6 MGluOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1yaWdodDowaW47DQoJbWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowaW47DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxl ZnQ6LjVpbjsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIixzYW5z LXNlcmlmO30NCnNwYW4uSGVhZGluZzJDaGFyDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1uYW1lOiJIZWFkaW5nIDIg Q2hhciI7DQoJbXNvLXN0eWxlLXByaW9yaXR5Ojk7DQoJbXNvLXN0eWxlLWxpbms6IkhlYWRpbmcg MiI7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkgTGlnaHQiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7DQoJY29sb3I6IzJG NTQ5Njt9DQpzcGFuLkVtYWlsU3R5bGUyMA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpwZXJzb25hbC1yZXBs eTsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsNCgljb2xvcjp3aW5kb3d0ZXh0 O30NCi5Nc29DaHBEZWZhdWx0DQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOmV4cG9ydC1vbmx5Ow0KCWZvbnQt c2l6ZToxMC4wcHQ7fQ0KQHBhZ2UgV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3NpemU6OC41aW4gMTEuMGluOw0K CW1hcmdpbjoxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbjt9DQpkaXYuV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3Bh Z2U6V29yZFNlY3Rpb24xO30NCi8qIExpc3QgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCkBsaXN0IGwwDQoJe21z by1saXN0LWlkOjE5NTM1MTcxODc7DQoJbXNvLWxpc3QtdHlwZTpoeWJyaWQ7DQoJbXNvLWxpc3Qt dGVtcGxhdGUtaWRzOjg3MjA1MjI2OCAyMDAzMDk0NjQgNjc2OTg2OTEgNjc2OTg2OTMgNjc2OTg2 ODkgNjc2OTg2OTEgNjc2OTg2OTMgNjc2OTg2ODkgNjc2OTg2OTEgNjc2OTg2OTM7fQ0KQGxpc3Qg bDA6bGV2ZWwxDQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1zdGFydC1hdDowOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9y bWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvg5g7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5v bmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0uMjVp bjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7DQoJbXNvLWZhcmVhc3QtZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IlRp bWVzIE5ldyBSb21hbiI7DQoJbXNvLWJpZGktZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IlNlZ29lIFVJIjt9DQpAbGlz dCBsMDpsZXZlbDINCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZl bC10ZXh0Om87DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1w b3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0uMjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ291cmll ciBOZXciO30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsMw0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxs ZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ674KnOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1z by1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotLjI1aW47DQoJZm9u dC1mYW1pbHk6V2luZ2RpbmdzO30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsNA0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVy LWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ674K3Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3Rv cDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDot LjI1aW47DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6U3ltYm9sO30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsNQ0KCXttc28tbGV2 ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ6bzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwt dGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1p bmRlbnQ6LS4yNWluOw0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDb3VyaWVyIE5ldyI7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2 ZWw2DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrv gqc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlv bjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0uMjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7fQ0K QGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWw3DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28t bGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgrc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51 bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0uMjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpT eW1ib2w7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWw4DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxl dDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDpvOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1s ZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotLjI1aW47DQoJZm9udC1m YW1pbHk6IkNvdXJpZXIgTmV3Ijt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMDpsZXZlbDkNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJl ci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Ou+CpzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0 b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6 LS4yNWluOw0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OldpbmdkaW5nczt9DQpvbA0KCXttYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjBp bjt9DQp1bA0KCXttYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjBpbjt9DQotLT48L3N0eWxlPg0KPC9oZWFkPg0KPGJv ZHkgbGFuZz0iRU4tVVMiIGxpbms9ImJsdWUiIHZsaW5rPSJwdXJwbGUiIHN0eWxlPSJ3b3JkLXdy YXA6YnJlYWstd29yZCI+DQo8ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0KPGRpdj4NCjxibG9j a3F1b3RlIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDozMC4wcHQ7bWFyZ2luLXJpZ2h0OjBpbiI+DQo8aDIg c3R5bGU9Im1zby1tYXJnaW4tdG9wLWFsdDo5LjZwdDttYXJnaW4tcmlnaHQ6MGluO21hcmdpbi1i b3R0b206LjA1aW47bWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MGluO2xpbmUtaGVpZ2h0OjIwLjI1cHQiPg0KPGEgaHJl Zj0iI25hbWUtZGlzY3Vzc2lvbi12ZW51ZXMiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTAuMHB0 O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O0FyaWFsJnF1b3Q7LHNhbnMtc2VyaWYiPkRpc2N1c3Npb24gVmVu dWVzPC9zcGFuPjwvYT48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvaDI+DQo8cCBzdHlsZT0ibXNvLW1hcmdpbi10b3At YWx0OjYuMHB0O21hcmdpbi1yaWdodDowaW47bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTo2LjBwdDttYXJnaW4tbGVm dDowaW4iIGlkPSJnbWFpbC1zZWN0aW9uLW5vdGUuMS0xIj4NCjxpPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250 LWZhbWlseTomcXVvdDtBcmlhbCZxdW90OyxzYW5zLXNlcmlmIj5UaGlzIG5vdGUgaXMgdG8gYmUg cmVtb3ZlZCBiZWZvcmUgcHVibGlzaGluZyBhcyBhbiBSRkMuPGEgaHJlZj0iI3NlY3Rpb24tbm90 ZS4xLTEiPsK2PC9hPjwvc3Bhbj48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvaT48L3A+DQo8cCBzdHlsZT0ibXNvLW1h cmdpbi10b3AtYWx0OjYuMHB0O21hcmdpbi1yaWdodDowaW47bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTo2LjBwdDtt YXJnaW4tbGVmdDowaW4iIGlkPSJnbWFpbC1zZWN0aW9uLW5vdGUuMS0yIj4NCjxzcGFuIHN0eWxl PSJmb250LWZhbWlseTomcXVvdDtBcmlhbCZxdW90OyxzYW5zLXNlcmlmO2NvbG9yOmJsYWNrO2Jh Y2tncm91bmQ6eWVsbG93Ij5EaXNjdXNzaW9uIG9mIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgdGFrZXMgcGxhY2Ug b24gdGhlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdCAoKSwgd2hpY2ggaXMgYXJjaGl2ZWQgYXQmbmJzcDsuPGEgaHJl Zj0iI3NlY3Rpb24tbm90ZS4xLTIiPsK2PC9hPjwvc3Bhbj48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIHN0 eWxlPSJtc28tbWFyZ2luLXRvcC1hbHQ6Ni4wcHQ7bWFyZ2luLXJpZ2h0OjBpbjttYXJnaW4tYm90 dG9tOjYuMHB0O21hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjBpbiIgaWQ9ImdtYWlsLXNlY3Rpb24tbm90ZS4xLTMiPg0K PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O0FyaWFsJnF1b3Q7LHNhbnMtc2VyaWYiPlNv dXJjZSBmb3IgdGhpcyBkcmFmdCBhbmQgYW4gaXNzdWUgdHJhY2tlciBjYW4gYmUgZm91bmQgYXQm bmJzcDs8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UuY29tL3YzL19faHR0cHM6L2dpdGh1Yi5j b20vU3BlbmNlckRhd2tpbnMvc2RwLXJ0cC1xdWljLXF1ZXN0aW9uc19fOyEhR2p2VHpfdmshSEli LU5yYVdWOXFGUzAwTzRHOWd4aUZQR0VaX1BNU0JXdzhUbU56dTQ4QVZqVDBQeVNZX2VBOGFHVGNk JCI+aHR0cHM6Ly9naXRodWIuY29tL1NwZW5jZXJEYXdraW5zL3NkcC1ydHAtcXVpYy1xdWVzdGlv bnM8L2E+Ljwvc3Bhbj48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJN c29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LWZhbWlseTomcXVvdDtBcmlhbCZxdW90OyxzYW5z LXNlcmlmIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFs Ij5EaWQgeW91IChjaGFuZ2UgdG8/KSB1c2luZyBNYXJ0aW7igJlzIGktZC10ZW1wYXRlIHRvb2xz PyZuYnNwOyBJdCBjcmVhdGVzIGFuIGluaXRpYWwgLm5vdGUueG1sIGZpbGUgd2hpY2ggeW91IHNo b3VsZCBlZGl0LjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJz cDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHVsIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tdG9wOjBpbiIgdHlwZT0iZGlz YyI+DQo8bGkgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb0xpc3RQYXJhZ3JhcGgiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDowaW47 bXNvLWxpc3Q6bDAgbGV2ZWwxIGxmbzEiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LWZhbWlseTomcXVvdDtT ZWdvZSBVSSZxdW90OyxzYW5zLXNlcmlmO2NvbG9yOiMyNDI5MkYiPkJlZm9yZSBJIGFzayBhbnkg bW9yZSBxdWVzdGlvbnMsIHNob3VsZCBJIGJlIHN1cnByaXNlZCBieSBhbnkgb2YgdGhpcz88L3Nw YW4+PG86cD48L286cD48L2xpPjwvdWw+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9y bWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPkFzIHdpdGgg bWFueSB0aGluZ3MsIGdldHRpbmcgYWxsIHRoZSBjb3JuZXIgY2FzZXMgcmlnaHQgZGVwZW5kcyBv biB0aG9zZSBjb3JuZXIgY2FzZXMgc2hvd2luZyB1cCBpbiB0aGUgdG9vbOKAmXMgdXNhZ2UuJm5i c3A7IEFzIGZvciB3aGV0aGVyIG9yIG5vdCB5b3Ugc2hvdWxkIGJlIHN1cnByaXNlZCwgdGhhdOKA mXMgeW91ciBjYWxsIDopPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8 L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_A270FDB198E444E1A395DF41FC4C2604akamaicom_-- From nobody Thu Sep 23 16:08:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3804E3A0EF3 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:08:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=290VPGVm; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=H6wwBd0W Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TMB_g9JW8AHk for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98A453A0EEE for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 51226 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2021 23:08:29 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=c818.614d08ed.k2109; bh=4mL5sIjRd2YFq5sXkdFBSXGSHQqylRxTXQsSw+rpM90=; b=290VPGVmH6gplwzencVzy/HfHZ+tNs/JLvUnpkGpl+vALU4Y1dlZm8x3JGkNuEIV34LP9Nz5wSQGkgyDaC2lW8w+H882XO/G9Fg+1cq7E0yTddo15aI6e6KyB2UWvIvtS/Myv/1pSNg7jGvTSTxN6twwQvlQFg56HnvQIKz91jnt+XRx37GPSqYjQiSbU5qmmNjdbuv+EcSRtuVJ2vG+6ED0S2A+FmuQFJw1Sb42kxNjAXniqdHvnvreeYNn8l6c3Eh69F+pPgVO58yuSATstMGWqX+IRs97T6hORXnFqj4tniLFN+xw7cLOA/vhp1/4pqZx4C/JdkgeNuARmxy2ww== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=c818.614d08ed.k2109; bh=4mL5sIjRd2YFq5sXkdFBSXGSHQqylRxTXQsSw+rpM90=; b=H6wwBd0WiZ4WaPkn6pMm7E3dfxjZphxhaTBTCFAPJBFNVu94zNCLKszoAfin7X6COz1d0ThFia6WxRGkbpU1MhJ1M6LMqfAlIxfS8CYvR+TR5MYoGId+XuFdfHkb3mNNlLt2Wp43osKZfTRhHOGAMTarDusHhOXQICWGDSHVJUz4OUgobs+6k40WR363mcq+FflGIDP2Ywj875vEvyV7E0p93Ys+03Io+y3KGmTAA0Hfza80WJmHGZAAiid3z3WKQiLrCP9bVUUnsqT/Yu3i8JmQ3c2926vRKmTjTiFTjdcrWXFUaacXwP7ejQKVyF8w3G2JZ9bj5cm4rfEYPqUuTQ== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 23 Sep 2021 23:08:28 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3A86F293887F; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 19:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0619D2938861; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 19:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: 23 Sep 2021 19:08:27 -0400 Message-ID: <8e53a2-6fd9-76b3-4184-df4d1f47f6@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Toerless Eckert" Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: References: <20210923211259.B42C2293775B@ary.qy> <2add4d8f-1f7d-5589-fbd9-d4ba7b852b45@taugh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:08:36 -0000 >> I dunno. There's a lot of mail systems where everyone reads all their mail >> with IMAP. > > Yes, but not to read emails on mail boxes with 10,000 messages or more > and a TCP connection across the globe. Sheesh. I use Alpine which opens a folder on my server with 293,000 messages, or the main IETF list folder with 138,000 messages in a few seconds. (I just tried it.) My wife uses Thunderbird which is about the same. IMAP is asynchronous and pipelined so I find connections to servers in Asia not much slower than connections within the US. I do not think that one person's unfamiliarity with IMAP means the IETF has to invent something else new and certainly worse. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Thu Sep 23 16:11:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B25643A0F4D for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:11:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xjrrdgkToFsK for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C3873A0F48 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id m11so10280038ioo.6 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:10:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aEbwq7doBaHdUM9pzN5mLqy6nvNhcWxk+GatLwARtxc=; b=MhopvQ2ypBneTKLdgfYkYk/vPPVFL9pwJRQBEHE+sFx77LZuXMsGWVhGpYKyCdQWG0 aiGKyqIUrmOJfZpNEfYBo3hZ3oQgCbfq66QsdBccv4fMN7qKC12/4SHTZLaMsk1Vm97w kOdlg7ATkJgTOpZ4DOH1axGKWp73D5FBhoVhS38uTIKbrYG1vwcF4v1xjcH/KeS1HmuI matrI/ZveMYpLA0ui4szCtbCAcWA62ck/aUwtnT346xA4m1k988tOasQ8Er5psq+XU5L lScAQsU4i3EoEztuR6s4xFiEMH89m8u8SwlXnTLTQMK9VKJcu8DV0sQEDzkh9WGT19s5 lFxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aEbwq7doBaHdUM9pzN5mLqy6nvNhcWxk+GatLwARtxc=; b=ZfPjbNGYXgUEJrNeHYO2WFfHOmxMIJm6xkj09hvSBs81J6ljhEO6e/3VS2EiY08JTV RkmC7PdhD4SkGiZhhjoda8+u0rDmnb2jLZSnfVlcm8PDGxYD/cWoj+14ud7VbnxbArIE Y4JdyLVJJxiVppiOjcd7oY2Ag4kE5ZFEIKFyKlAZ/mP5Sqh7RDrZt+tD19XTSPXR+f9d ymckSmM6++QC8G1CWST7xH7Ks6DM+UWVkWRIz5weYjZlHUq1kbeCz15/160rHmey6FiN sMcK608SXpOS1pNvsFEE3//2PelAD3fGsEt3Le88iYceqr+r2HCr0O7EENBsa7ygoKda 5bVA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531AntKxXNhMKk7Je7r2B91Rt2jTxW/T/klO+Vdb8pAY6m315BAF Mx6/allwihEM8Zk4A6oBSL9gC57K+J903vvyyib7sIzcvTo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxyiYHGyWMvsb6ltP63oa6Gyd9Nq/6H52eik2blz3FkvFtkjisdVz/2/RsGHVmjDJRXJS7vQI2qyfmBZenj2j0= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b785:: with SMTP id h127mr6166544iof.149.1632438655263; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:10:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210923211259.B42C2293775B@ary.qy> <2add4d8f-1f7d-5589-fbd9-d4ba7b852b45@taugh.com> <8e53a2-6fd9-76b3-4184-df4d1f47f6@taugh.com> In-Reply-To: <8e53a2-6fd9-76b3-4184-df4d1f47f6@taugh.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:10:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: John R Levine Cc: Toerless Eckert , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a406005ccb1bee0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:11:02 -0000 --0000000000002a406005ccb1bee0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 4:08 PM John R Levine wrote: > >> I dunno. There's a lot of mail systems where everyone reads all their > mail > >> with IMAP. > > > > Yes, but not to read emails on mail boxes with 10,000 messages or more > > and a TCP connection across the globe. > > Sheesh. > > I use Alpine which opens a folder on my server with 293,000 messages, or > the main IETF list folder with 138,000 messages in a few seconds. (I just > tried it.) My wife uses Thunderbird which is about the same. IMAP is > asynchronous and pipelined so I find connections to servers in Asia not > much slower than connections within the US. > > I do not think that one person's unfamiliarity with IMAP means the > IETF has to invent something else new and certainly worse. > I don't understand what is being invented. Mailing lists that one can subscribe to but not send to are not some kind of advanced technology. Indeed, IETF operates one: ietf-announce. -Ekr > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --0000000000002a406005ccb1bee0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 4:08 PM John = R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wro= te:
>> I d= unno.=C2=A0 There's a lot of mail systems where everyone reads all thei= r mail
>> with IMAP.
>
> Yes, but not to read emails on mail boxes with 10,000 messages or more=
> and a TCP connection across the globe.

Sheesh.

I use Alpine which opens a folder on my server with 293,000 messages, or the main IETF list folder with 138,000 messages in a few seconds.=C2=A0 (I = just
tried it.)=C2=A0 My wife uses Thunderbird which is about the same.=C2=A0 IM= AP is
asynchronous and pipelined so I find connections to servers in Asia not much slower than connections within the US.

I do not think that one person's unfamiliarity with IMAP means the
IETF has to invent something else new and certainly worse.
=

I don't understand what is being invented. Mailing = lists that one can subscribe to but not send to are not some kind of advanc= ed technology. Indeed, IETF operates one: ietf-announce.

-Ekr


Regards,
John Levine, johnl@tau= gh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--0000000000002a406005ccb1bee0-- From nobody Thu Sep 23 17:29:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1823A040F for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:29:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FcDWEFyIccTn for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB4913A0404 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com with SMTP id z202so3330113vkd.1 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:29:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nhs9rcRfpmlFHy+Tv3QFq6YTacRYXDaDUqPujEwactI=; b=eBoANUUucoHoDle6pZYKdzz8R3IULq6gjhR7AQs2wZsOKDRxAlTtOe0X6EKEdmzsni upxfEgXXe47RGZADATMQfY/Hxnq0gd6Bc/Flz5NWnE9KLh2DR04AyjhjxKNkNT5MvEjb wto5T1gTGcnKLdoSyxRZKALj2nTikrVZeSNpCSm8cueN88QmyqWzre87OIsZivu17cbw 00FI4rF+nWDh2FPKc3uRMuiiJADsNiWd556ZfpdnSzMaDwsmk/sQhqrAoLpMAUXYQaXP B9cexzI0yuTmxVn54IiZ7HGmOYbNA2q0tHC/juqUB/yuUZStcckEQIlg4oowdryrOUNW ZnCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nhs9rcRfpmlFHy+Tv3QFq6YTacRYXDaDUqPujEwactI=; b=ATFp4KrLJZlP/HpMMBxm31MO9elZUYuC1RS7BmhtBraacSn5lpCRFnAAHr3ul8wR02 TohUSuYshYJqJyFXhJ3LLqMm+elRz6OkgBETF7fK+yQHA3zxpLW2UCUa4C7g+OyMiniG w8rHp0dJbs/QtADpaDzEGTUj3H1MFa2qzuMOak6fYMUc2mx675ipgdy7wphQGDFDGeJr xNAYg92yVeyhZtbITkiOHg2LDZ2YONsPq5fieQRT14K4Ni6AO1mcOHy0o6vCahgJ7L1z urbktrZhcdWmOfAbfgt0hjCogbYDaBxSFHz1waQnAEdfnjNZGeJfbrmJQ2BQN5t1fBDI N9jQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533mj8oLkjaRYqy/u1QBiWq26c2OxvefOH/6jqU/NId6IPjHq1O3 j4Fxp+F5mVl9XRjAO9nDITMG4ey4M90IkG6oBp0SKSID X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw6O352oNaWeIfbXbsnsoCNJEeRyQVe8y1/y8BCATgBXM3Ed84EvxSdHsWbuAyuMRjrGyJsfL5SP2o2AwfpNGo= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:a64b:: with SMTP id p72mr5333706vke.1.1632443339520; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:28:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 19:28:33 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005e3e7f05ccb2d5a1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] When I have a draft that doesn't target a working group, I break things ... X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 00:29:06 -0000 --0000000000005e3e7f05ccb2d5a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Rich, On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 5:44 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > Discussion Venues <#m_-4454017814563873597_name-discussion-venues> > > *This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC.=C2=B6 > <#m_-4454017814563873597_section-note.1-1>* > > Discussion of this document takes place on the mailing list (), which is > archived at .=C2=B6 <#m_-4454017814563873597_section-note.1-2> > > Source for this draft and an issue tracker can be found at > https://github.com/SpencerDawkins/sdp-rtp-quic-questions > > . > > > > Did you (change to?) using Martin=E2=80=99s i-d-tempate tools? It create= s an > initial .note.xml file which you should edit. > I've been using Martin's i-d-template for a while (measured in years), and started using it CORRECTLY (cloning that repo, instead of creating a new one and copying in stuff from another one of my repos) about five or six repos ago. Like I said, I didn't get the inserted "Discussion Venues" section in another recent draft, so apparently this is new, and I had poked around for a while trying to find this, but wasn't looking in the right place. Thank you very much for that. So, I guess that this isn't also used in the CONTRIBUTING.md file, since the weirdness is different (it guesses at the working group name and mailing list, but it guessed "sdp", which was wrong). But that's not going to prevent me from submitting the draft, and the problem you solved for me was. Best, Spencer > > - Before I ask any more questions, should I be surprised by any of > this? > > > > As with many things, getting all the corner cases right depends on those > corner cases showing up in the tool=E2=80=99s usage. As for whether or n= ot you > should be surprised, that=E2=80=99s your call :) > --0000000000005e3e7f05ccb2d5a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Rich,=C2=A0

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 5:= 44 PM Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:

Discussion Venues=

This note is to be removed = before publishing as an RFC.=C2=B6

= Discussion of this document takes place on the mailing list (), which is ar= chived at=C2=A0.=C2=B6=

Source for this draft and an i= ssue tracker can be found at=C2=A0ht= tps://github.com/SpencerDawkins/sdp-rtp-quic-questions.

= =C2=A0

Did you (change to?) using Martin=E2=80=99s i-d-temp= ate tools?=C2=A0 It creates an initial .note.xml file which you should edit= .


I've been using= Martin's i-d-template for a while (measured in years), and started usi= ng it CORRECTLY (cloning that repo, instead of creating a new one and copyi= ng in stuff from another one of my repos) about five or six repos ago. Like= I said, I didn't get the inserted "Discussion Venues" sectio= n in another recent draft, so apparently this is new, and I had poked aroun= d for a while trying to find this, but wasn't looking in the=C2=A0right= place. Thank you very much for that.=C2=A0

So, I = guess that this isn't also used in the CONTRIBUTING.md file, since the = weirdness is different (it guesses at the working group name and mailing li= st, but it guessed "sdp", which was wrong). But that's not go= ing to prevent me from submitting the draft, and the problem you solved for= me was.=C2=A0

Best,

Spen= cer
=C2=A0

<= u>

  • Before I ask= any more questions, should I be surprised by any of this?=

=C2=A0

As with many things, getting all the corner cases ri= ght depends on those corner cases showing up in the tool=E2=80=99s usage.= =C2=A0 As for whether or not you should be surprised, that=E2=80=99s your c= all :)

--0000000000005e3e7f05ccb2d5a1-- From nobody Thu Sep 23 17:42:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B173A08A7 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:42:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=F+GddL3I; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=lNK1IQ1y Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gU8lh-pQhYMv for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7A733A08A5 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50DF3201F32 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 20:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 23 Sep 2021 20:42:26 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=jS5GLaHcANlLUc6snciF4xdVXOb/+Jb NRm8vGzYv6MI=; b=F+GddL3I3mu03sal8hnvemdcqkmngaEz+gnOAex3BCS3yMp tvbWGXcJBmYkJg4yCl4wm66E5NkVezl3fwOm8VotxSmK1glkxsF5eQ7tJ/XtWl+z 83vH9Uo7wC5IoGuG0eepLknj7/VLYlSP1XeeaS5Gux0qtt9H43L6kXxoEydSGEKh U/XVpKGqwrcA46/U+mAZyyObofqCG8Xy5FZPRbfO4z8hgSEAUPYGqXGKj/Zhckg5 HT4n2das8mLFXOnYuIpFPUIkdl8pHzQsnMJu41XE+cv/ygjtBKt9NwD7awltlCMQ QGVkYABctuPAz6a3BwvLMv89kqm/t8T06s9A0Dg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=jS5GLa HcANlLUc6snciF4xdVXOb/+JbNRm8vGzYv6MI=; b=lNK1IQ1yb07xRm3nGtoDRX tfj3CYxWxWJveCxS0u8YdKBmJzOURDPOC89/r3NrGOgN/uXCLdQkE5xxKWVv5/Kb gxxWDsUx04wrFnQVDeHfgbN3O3JCeMBi2yJ219EUMF3n1wnR/W55DY9U2PIzICXB Gm9KV9wWOhzPEui4Iqdx9IukB+BqkyWMV8pGW+HON7oVoYBMMAlwJqbqysdbAVqd 1hDedaOZm/sEQ6ydISJoo/CO3pfr9nZNDYNO9NazYKHYlf4KgFK07UI2wjdZpQt1 spSjtlS/JMPkw1yrntBQz09qP8W1/Grn49Y5Bv4krVVBtay2R0Myb4gtaveQLQkQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejtddgfeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehfeetudduudehtdekhf dvhfetleffudejgeejffehffevkeduiefgueevkeefleenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvg ht X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3F4733C0E5F; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 20:42:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1303-gb2406efd75-fm-20210922.002-gb2406efd Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <63283086-3f57-45c9-9600-63a6e70f4aab@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 10:42:08 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] =?utf-8?q?When_I_have_a_draft_that_doesn=27t_tar?= =?utf-8?q?get_a_working_group=2C_I_break_things_=2E=2E=2E?= X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 00:42:36 -0000 On Fri, Sep 24, 2021, at 10:28, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > So, I guess that this isn't also used in the CONTRIBUTING.md file, > since the weirdness is different (it guesses at the working group name > and mailing list, but it guessed "sdp", which was wrong). But that's > not going to prevent me from submitting the draft, and the problem you > solved for me was. Hi Spencer, These are, as you note, relatively new features and not completely good. I've only recently started using the datatracker API for getting mailing list information and haven't standardized its usage, so things are still a bit uneven. The eventual goal is to fill in the information when it is available, but omit information when it is not. The weird note is a bug and I can fix that. I'll see if I can't fix the contributing doc at the same time. From nobody Thu Sep 23 18:47:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FBDA3A124C for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:47:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=VaA0ntpL; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=Pp6vScdc Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SRgNQCao-A1W for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35DB83A124A for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 74039 invoked from network); 24 Sep 2021 01:47:43 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=12135.614d2e3f.k2109; bh=4IQTkwQH2KGLTKNd9KxRhmlqacZhBotU2nhPwr4WCK4=; b=VaA0ntpLjRUuKJsz0JHstWom/H3je81t8ZdT1K0a7FtHlsr1C+0Gv/qxRX9PzyHLHb3IIAgyrlytp4y8Ybm572STDLeIXc/P+kp/cOUbGNJh/ik08ZSPRcAmlskPhXYdiSkDeQgTbJRprWHMxZTcQ6Zh3bjOROm32bNn/aOeTUaLQt80aXN004XX94AmjhhsuGw4E5dX/TN6Aoeoe5NaOGTjA2sL/Dx1kzhLeJfDPtrQcx5kTXhDlGRp8CDI4qTeM17cm/fJ87+fEiwdg/LOfGIBIkbrjU8BdZAu9Sld8aGt9pEVuVibgwAdtuthwhhlFGpf19wa7vgwBIf8JU1phQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=12135.614d2e3f.k2109; bh=4IQTkwQH2KGLTKNd9KxRhmlqacZhBotU2nhPwr4WCK4=; b=Pp6vScdcirJX1a1Oz6mJOHA/RCqYZse9VNvuoZiPiibRmK1MNH3JkpB0Xs6IIPRo7sjLMxLHiCwu2r9/jnpBQ4XcoBXpvioSB4pZWISBf3B06x6NBXQxHt93bCPkTm6/8QF8LyDukt5gvQcS/VqexqvRg+0S9RKwrsQyDDdhdOP+wHRLmlVAFiy8pgXv/X1Nr1rMCSv8ZDqgt4Rp+Eu5t/A6rfIaQcqognPM5RIFcs4oBgsGgaY3+V2mxB2lfNamJVlabXSjaH/pi1IquqH2I71OdkEAe9LXmst8QjLjVPPJ5m41YmTAkqG8o4nNZFVr3zOnVlLrWsOs6/Szke8rQQ== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 24 Sep 2021 01:47:42 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 433BB2939988; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E3C293996A; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: 23 Sep 2021 21:47:41 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Eric Rescorla" Cc: "Toerless Eckert" , "tools-discuss" X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: References: <20210923211259.B42C2293775B@ary.qy> <2add4d8f-1f7d-5589-fbd9-d4ba7b852b45@taugh.com> <8e53a2-6fd9-76b3-4184-df4d1f47f6@taugh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 01:47:51 -0000 > I don't understand what is being invented. Mailing lists that one can > subscribe to but not send to are not some kind of advanced technology. > Indeed, IETF operates one: ietf-announce. Mailman has moderated lists, but it doesn't have lists where one set of people subscribe and a separate set can post. I can think of ways to set up a hack where you have the blah list to which only specified people subscribe, the blah-read list to which anyone can subscribe but everything is moderated, and a kludgetastic script in which a secret address subscribes to the blah list which forwards to blah-read and adds a header with the moderator password. But ugh. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Thu Sep 23 18:54:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0673A00E1 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:54:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0jTuKXubZp_E for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 144033A00DE for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0255846F9A16; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:54:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id niMz52fQy1L9; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BE1746F7C79; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 13:54:46 +1200 Cc: Eric Rescorla , tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <628054C7-59A9-4500-A27D-4ABE30BE31FC@ietf.org> References: <20210923211259.B42C2293775B@ary.qy> <2add4d8f-1f7d-5589-fbd9-d4ba7b852b45@taugh.com> <8e53a2-6fd9-76b3-4184-df4d1f47f6@taugh.com> To: John R Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Read-only mailing list subscriptions ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 01:54:57 -0000 > On 24/09/2021, at 1:47 PM, John R Levine wrote: >=20 >> I don't understand what is being invented. Mailing lists that one can >> subscribe to but not send to are not some kind of advanced = technology. >> Indeed, IETF operates one: ietf-announce. >=20 > Mailman has moderated lists, but it doesn't have lists where one set = of people subscribe and a separate set can post. I don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s correct. It=E2=80=99s possible to = have a list where new people can only subscribe with their moderation = bit set, which prevents them posting and which they cannot change, while = those who are allowed to post have their moderation bits unset, either = manually or by API. This is how ietf-announce works after all. Jay >=20 > I can think of ways to set up a hack where you have the blah list to = which only specified people subscribe, the blah-read list to which = anyone can subscribe but everything is moderated, and a kludgetastic = script in which a secret address subscribes to the blah list which = forwards to blah-read and adds a header with the moderator password. = But ugh. >=20 > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. = https://jl.ly >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Sep 23 21:22:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C42763A143B for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:22:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bpkw5M1Njv2H for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAFCB3A1435 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com with SMTP id k10so8666604vsp.12 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:22:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5iK2kCVzXK9zf6tG8f9qpBEI1le+2nWfVXEnhQGlY7s=; b=nmkk6SQwuvWw3RgYHiFZ+JFrzB/EFCMbQU5tWdT9BLp7FC4QFqr1x9pmWWYDsyL4uO 1sP7Q5eYH1+4SYgshQbfR/kxNRMVUJPAd1zgW/PmQAWHNSrIrMoRXB6d+AmCf/bwoGpI zJUjL0M2vJnivdi7QcpfHMSTwzA2J+qNuXDLHjVdIwV2l+Qvxqw6MzWKw1loJztd801r OR2pPOKU7W0fHJeEBC/CKhOEKQHdsxM8DGivVB2mamw74Ql89Frdy+QWMpWfjr8pJQ4q hUxqa9wagIhvRd49jFUoK5UkEpxi+GKlAbria6hrs5lOEepGjS2mv0NYChS972qu8mEL zzEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5iK2kCVzXK9zf6tG8f9qpBEI1le+2nWfVXEnhQGlY7s=; b=Lb6aQVxC94y4YIt1eqysrmc0T0PRxLWIvz1QFUkLF4peYeg8G+YiEpNzMNEjqoD0es hLzUvE1qXEGgbUfJnVaXgJ0tb7iD3qwEL+o4LnJXSG/JDWBLb9+z/Vhxoq6A9R5qQQmk r0G4xvXy1Su/M+Tla7+P63vHrMMfxKEdvSn7S2JChArp7SwFlLPMAk075EJnUHn4Y7Vf Q5/sIlby6ah1GXMVLalyYCd3LgOzTa21aa2yHOSC8FH3sNjcuTs+EMxJtjrsBdN7W9P5 PuF1Us15sIZi/3ip/ONhxk55MtAkmH4CGlfmCBgwHRu4FzkfQiZrDOX4b3XqQQlP/fqX 73uA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530g09zE0OsLPIjzdIiZBH/RXQFAQi+MEp1X3f6nu1Qg76VdSEIX R89ifPx/vdV/ssPpKpAPVUj0O4wwfyPs8l2ve/c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz8teXHKauXQjgiGFJak6nRGAD1YUdt9T2RyR6SN12HA2L+AxsY4qEbDTGIJktigZ2RNaDJuJSf8EYGFBIKXSM= X-Received: by 2002:a67:3094:: with SMTP id w142mr8094871vsw.1.1632457349280; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:22:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <63283086-3f57-45c9-9600-63a6e70f4aab@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <63283086-3f57-45c9-9600-63a6e70f4aab@www.fastmail.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:22:17 -0500 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006a371305ccb6188a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] When I have a draft that doesn't target a working group, I break things ... X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 04:22:36 -0000 --0000000000006a371305ccb6188a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Martin, On Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 19:42 Martin Thomson wrote: > On Fri, Sep 24, 2021, at 10:28, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > > So, I guess that this isn't also used in the CONTRIBUTING.md file, > > since the weirdness is different (it guesses at the working group name > > and mailing list, but it guessed "sdp", which was wrong). But that's > > not going to prevent me from submitting the draft, and the problem you > > solved for me was. > > Hi Spencer, > > These are, as you note, relatively new features and not completely good. > > I've only recently started using the datatracker API for getting mailing > list information and haven't standardized its usage, so things are still a > bit uneven. > > The eventual goal is to fill in the information when it is available, but > omit information when it is not. The weird note is a bug and I can fix > that. I'll see if I can't fix the contributing doc at the same time. > As Rich said, the corner cases are easier to find when they show up on their own, and you know you can count on me for corner cases (not just with the toolset, either!) The "might be targeting any of several working group mailing lists but is actually targeting some random non-WG mailing list" case has to be the worst - maybe that's something that should be in optional attributes, so you don't have to get every corner case right, and the 15 percent of drafts that don't match the usual pattern could be manually repaired? Thanks for your work on making things work more automagically. I've been adding "venues for contribution and discussion" sections to my own drafts, but I still see drafts (including WG drafts) that don't have any pointers to mailing lists or to GitHub, so adding that, automatically generated, is very helpful. I did have one question - it seems reasonable to generate the same text for the new section in the draft and for the CONTRIBUTING.md file, since they contain the same information. Is that possible? I can pretty trivially put the information from my notes.xml file in my CONTRIBUTING.md file, but having one of those in XML and the other in Markdown seemed odd ... Best, Spencer > --0000000000006a371305ccb6188a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Martin,

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 19:42 Martin Thomson = <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:
On Fri, Sep 24, 2021, at 10:28, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> So, I guess that this isn't also used in the CONTRIBUTING.md file,=
> since the weirdness is different (it guesses at the working group name=
> and mailing list, but it guessed "sdp", which was wrong). Bu= t that's
> not going to prevent me from submitting the draft, and the problem you=
> solved for me was.

Hi Spencer,

These are, as you note, relatively new features and not completely good.
I've only recently started using the datatracker API for getting mailin= g list information and haven't standardized its usage, so things are st= ill a bit uneven.

The eventual goal is to fill in the information when it is available, but o= mit information when it is not.=C2=A0 The weird note is a bug and I can fix= that.=C2=A0 I'll see if I can't fix the contributing doc at the sa= me time.

As Rich said, the corner cases are easier to find when they show = up on their own, and you know you can count on me for corner cases (not jus= t with the toolset, either!)=C2=A0

The "might be targeting any of several working group mailin= g lists but is actually targeting some random non-WG mailing list" cas= e has to be the worst - maybe that's something that should be in option= al attributes, so you don't have to get every corner case right, and th= e 15 percent of drafts that don't match the usual pattern could be manu= ally repaired?

Thanks fo= r your work on making things work more automagically.=C2=A0

I've been adding "venues for= contribution and discussion" sections to my own drafts, but I still s= ee drafts (including WG drafts) that don't have any pointers to mailing= lists or to GitHub, so adding that, automatically generated, is very helpf= ul.=C2=A0

I did have one= question - it seems reasonable to generate the same text for the new secti= on in the draft and for the CONTRIBUTING.md file, since they contain the sa= me information. Is that possible? I can pretty trivially put the informatio= n from my notes.xml file in my CONTRIBUTING.md file, but having one of thos= e in XML and the other in Markdown seemed odd ...
Best,

Spencer
--0000000000006a371305ccb6188a-- From nobody Thu Sep 23 21:38:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C1043A14AA for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:38:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=CKS4P5S/; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=hVgY+8/z Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dlH_yRF1Mr7c for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 798543A14B0 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D153201F32; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 00:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 24 Sep 2021 00:38:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=SRp5ZHQKYMnBux4cWn3kwqojy0/m bDTzQYP8Ve5OTg8=; b=CKS4P5S/RzsWnhOtmkWEL4bGzK98hgloxShvu9DdV84D 3qr1E3eKLPu3KRZrC4ZC9y0xwOnxMLIh62vp+fm3pEf12NqqD0o3Z5FpaA09RQdp J1GdizSEnwA691nzNRdoOD76mSI5g8+HuVwhOP173SE35OxPZecdPvs69kUwmJVI r2EcRPf+knVyR5JKmn6iVlVncKfOgtaQoFDumX2eaSQnf9qGTk46eiTD6JYeOgz+ /NgQph0sxrj3EcM/XATEOZhuHnm0qrNroFYkGskQpdp8VYYVeu4MLQquKLuwzpT6 saSdYHiDdB4TN1BwrFCXT5FGbEhkvGUfO1hfkV8jKA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=SRp5ZH QKYMnBux4cWn3kwqojy0/mbDTzQYP8Ve5OTg8=; b=hVgY+8/zgPOpRcofJM+2FO mHQAZdWgKOYuHM3+BjTO1v2QxFEkReYM8LZtk+PluA3ifDSMT9853Nk5Q63+GCrP Q95p+PqIVQ8Tjs3CFv1zywhoMaaDon6TxbzgKGdLdqG7SyYQHUzVQpNt7D+jvBIM CIB3TslI+rKmf5nY31WrD66K/nZdBB9StGOY8g6Ud3lkHWu4ettbgQLgomACi0Uj 6008AP3bNnu7GfNruhPVgkggnct4oebxJ3yy7YNAH7p59jML9uI/4lowkiYT4X9N Mhmvr329bMiytU8ty6FVaI2Of/YPLw9ZBgiLdVD21aNC0Mibs0fPbCcEftg8mJtA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejtddgkeefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghr thhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecugg ftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheefteduudduhedtkefhvdfhteelffdujeegjeffheffveekudei gfeuveekfeelnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8F4EC3C0E5F; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 00:38:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1303-gb2406efd75-fm-20210922.002-gb2406efd Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3f5a2df3-87d1-42fd-9b32-f7c16657a3e7@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <63283086-3f57-45c9-9600-63a6e70f4aab@www.fastmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 14:37:59 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Spencer Dawkins at IETF" Cc: "Tools Team Discussion" Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] =?utf-8?q?When_I_have_a_draft_that_doesn=27t_tar?= =?utf-8?q?get_a_working_group=2C_I_break_things_=2E=2E=2E?= X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 04:38:29 -0000 On Fri, Sep 24, 2021, at 14:22, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > As Rich said, the corner cases are easier to find when they show up on > their own, and you know you can count on me for corner cases (not just > with the toolset, either!) It's a talent, for sure. That you take the time to write up what you learn is greatly appreciated. In this case, I've revised the process somewhat and you should find that the broken information is no longer being added. Rather than add bad information, I've chosen to remove the relevant sections. The datatracker API has a few unexpected quirks that I failed to account for. > I did have one question - it seems reasonable to generate the same text > for the new section in the draft and for the CONTRIBUTING.md file, > since they contain the same information. Is that possible? I can pretty > trivially put the information from my notes.xml file in my > CONTRIBUTING.md file, but having one of those in XML and the other in > Markdown seemed odd ... Yeah, when you have special constraints, this is what you get. It makes sense to do the common stuff, like drafts targeted at a working group. Beyond that, it's hard. The reason that I use XML for the note is that - unless things have changed - you can't mark sections as "removeInRfc" in markdown. If you have special text, then adding the information to both is a little more work, but I'm sure that your readers and contributors will appreciate the effort. I could automatically add a link to the CONTRIBUTING.md file in the note to readers if you would prefer to just edit the one location. From nobody Thu Sep 23 21:56:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4EAC3A1641 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:56:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c5rHxysC8ULJ for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 189293A163E for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [194.156.182.213]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HG09P1zWWz31LZ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 06:56:09 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D7075839-0DFB-43B9-8D68-2EC745998ED1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <3f5a2df3-87d1-42fd-9b32-f7c16657a3e7@www.fastmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 06:56:08 +0200 Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Tools Team Discussion Message-Id: References: <3f5a2df3-87d1-42fd-9b32-f7c16657a3e7@www.fastmail.com> To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] When I have a draft that doesn't target a working group, I break things ... X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 04:56:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail-D7075839-0DFB-43B9-8D68-2EC745998ED1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {: removeinrfc=3D=E2=80=9Ctrue=E2=80=9D} (There also is an ALD, which I forget, and I don=E2=80=99t have useful IT wi= th me.) Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > On 24. Sep 2021, at 06:38, Martin Thomson wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, Sep 24, 2021, at 14:22, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: >> As Rich said, the corner cases are easier to find when they show up on=20= >> their own, and you know you can count on me for corner cases (not just=20= >> with the toolset, either!)=20 >=20 > It's a talent, for sure. That you take the time to write up what you lear= n is greatly appreciated. >=20 > In this case, I've revised the process somewhat and you should find that t= he broken information is no longer being added. Rather than add bad informa= tion, I've chosen to remove the relevant sections. The datatracker API has a= few unexpected quirks that I failed to account for. >=20 >> I did have one question - it seems reasonable to generate the same text=20= >> for the new section in the draft and for the CONTRIBUTING.md file,=20 >> since they contain the same information. Is that possible? I can pretty=20= >> trivially put the information from my notes.xml file in my=20 >> CONTRIBUTING.md file, but having one of those in XML and the other in=20 >> Markdown seemed odd ... >=20 > Yeah, when you have special constraints, this is what you get. It makes s= ense to do the common stuff, like drafts targeted at a working group. Beyon= d that, it's hard. >=20 > The reason that I use XML for the note is that - unless things have change= d - you can't mark sections as "removeInRfc" in markdown. If you have speci= al text, then adding the information to both is a little more work, but I'm s= ure that your readers and contributors will appreciate the effort. >=20 > I could automatically add a link to the CONTRIBUTING.md file in the note t= o readers if you would prefer to just edit the one location. >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org= > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/tools-discuss --Apple-Mail-D7075839-0DFB-43B9-8D68-2EC745998ED1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {: removeinrfc=3D=E2=80=9Ctrue=E2=80=9D}
(There also is an ALD, which I forget, and I don=E2=80=99t h= ave useful IT with me.)

Sent from mobile, sorry for terse

=
On 24. Sep 2021, at 06:38, Martin Thomson <mt@l= owentropy.net> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFOn Fri, Sep 24, 2021, at 14:22, Spencer Daw= kins at IETF wrote:
As Rich said, t= he corner cases are easier to find when they show up on
their own, and you know you can count on= me for corner cases (not just
with the toolset, either!)
<= br>It's a talent, for sure.  That you take the time to write up w= hat you learn is greatly appreciated.

In th= is case, I've revised the process somewhat and you should find that the brok= en information is no longer being added.  Rather than add bad informati= on, I've chosen to remove the relevant sections.  The datatracker API h= as a few unexpected quirks that I failed to account for.

I did have one question - it seems r= easonable to generate the same text
for the new section in the draft and for the CONTRIBUTING.md= file,
since they co= ntain the same information. Is that possible? I can pretty
trivially put the information from my= notes.xml file in my
CONTRIBUTING.md file, but having one of those in XML and the other in
Markdown seemed odd ...<= /span>

Yeah, when you have special co= nstraints, this is what you get.  It makes sense to do the common stuff= , like drafts targeted at a working group.  Beyond that, it's hard.

The reason that I use XML for the note is that= - unless things have changed - you can't mark sections as "removeInRfc" in m= arkdown.  If you have special text, then adding the information to both= is a little more work, but I'm sure that your readers and contributors will= appreciate the effort.

I could automatical= ly add a link to the CONTRIBUTING.md file in the note to readers if you woul= d prefer to just edit the one location.

___= ________________________________________________________
Too= ls-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list i= s for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* R= eport datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org=
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org<= br>List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tools-discuss
= --Apple-Mail-D7075839-0DFB-43B9-8D68-2EC745998ED1-- From nobody Thu Sep 23 22:04:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1643A16B9 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:04:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=aOUDBFRV; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=iusUtQ0K Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U8AaMhnupZS5 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECCFB3A16B4 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABFC3201EE4; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 01:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 24 Sep 2021 01:04:48 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=kj Yg7fZvDJS3qsznWocvweSa9THLnji01MxiMYwAjwE=; b=aOUDBFRVSJ7jairiJM 38k0BfSkcRakdCdPiM5Mf33VmZJG3x0pD0UpYSQSai3y/Za6IhnF+cqjCahNIXoD 69oBw/mmz30ud3U3yVT8t1Z63YNI/2G9gsYAsAtv/37FtDne2VI7zLbpSARdJ+o5 mXrZJgq6FJRVwYnNwCieqj8yRH25odAAjjqndqpBzqDUuL39jmA/6kechxne00r5 ZXODGeVUE4MYJut6O8wF8c3OrJJfaYKYRwLU4ay1YbsRtzC5y8Nwo4r+4jhpedDQ D5uCQb77qndceeM8dU+N5UXhdVpTCynjqusIRUIINfUCCmOu0vTf+OnQ5ncQdDxb 93jw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=kjYg7fZvDJS3qsznWocvweSa9THLnji01MxiMYwAj wE=; b=iusUtQ0KyXAlBw3QmsTpQ4Nt5T9CPSgNQf74MP3Vb6f4APy2ewXtUxmeo QnF7Wu16zNdLOnFogqmbyif1MccEAHjYgBLXdeXvhBSV1M/J25iwWWKPi2iW7Zx+ IUykUa3WlAc/TLAY/FoLHJ/PeZgLHCfnX0IgJf+85Ikv5PWw+42VMZ4/f9boAtD5 8p60dZ5UW6YlDG2OY34CWyeAHSyJ2Yj56WPWrAenWNMiaS163kc7NZOFa9fpkP0z rh5dIzGqKFKcXGeSzO++VBrbJKmsJXp4GRnSFOKdBHx5tKO+KP0UPyZ8I6F0l2iz 655X/4CRV/d0aCCYHaxUKgC0enrNg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejtddgkeekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgsehtqhertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgr rhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenuc ggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeejhfffleehvedufeejfedvvdfhvdeiteduheeuffduveduueeg leefffffledvfeenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrh fuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhp hidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 522193C0E5F; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 01:04:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1303-gb2406efd75-fm-20210922.002-gb2406efd Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <98d787ef-82e2-4b65-8a43-6e0b8e21b8b3@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <3f5a2df3-87d1-42fd-9b32-f7c16657a3e7@www.fastmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 15:04:27 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Carsten Bormann" Cc: "Spencer Dawkins at IETF" , "Tools Team Discussion" Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] =?utf-8?q?When_I_have_a_draft_that_doesn=27t_tar?= =?utf-8?q?get_a_working_group=2C_I_break_things_=2E=2E=2E?= X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 05:04:55 -0000 On Fri, Sep 24, 2021, at 14:56, Carsten Bormann wrote: > {: removeinrfc=3D=E2=80=9Ctrue=E2=80=9D} $ grep -B1 removeInRfc draft-thomson-notagroup-rot13.md --- note_Please_Note {: removeInRfc=3D"true"} -- # Introduction {: removeInRfc=3D"true"} $ make ... draft-thomson-notagroup-rot13.xml(33): Error: Invalid attribute removeIn= Rfc for element t, at /rfc/front/note/t draft-thomson-notagroup-rot13.xml(37): Error: Invalid attribute removeIn= Rfc for element section, at /rfc/middle/section[1] And I realize that I forgot https://github.com/cabo/kramdown-rfc2629/iss= ues/71 which means using to_be_removed_note_Please_Note instead. The latter seems to be a bug in xml2rfc because the resulting XML is cle= arly permitted by RFC 7991. From nobody Thu Sep 23 22:10:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A31293A16F9 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:10:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=qkU+mADF; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=JjWhKTsa Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8DZzO7Oorzpk for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A123B3A16F8 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A78B3201D0E for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 01:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 24 Sep 2021 01:09:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=1MvmZn8c4gDz3ekvZmrlRxiu3BASWSg dKTBfG9CsCUw=; b=qkU+mADFh1zWnVIAFdQZD0Hbm7XYRsQgeiP2crKrpcVnZ+H CLNIAo/uTz/UQmHQK7nAV+LYYjLxdJLQStPIPoz7gfv7dEzs49v4pBfO0+u805ji FoYxf8yoZL3mKr6Md+yFS/HcQcD2bUExZdytqLbFAzyBazDyY2znqmWgXxg6app9 FQqMPYChIzajIVLWh62ldXksN5NgiRCWy8lWIy3PWGDeV6L/yXCDJEgQwKFMkkBT g72zEGB8cZlF8Pn9Im2H0vjc+88O8TQHIGIb+QCdm+mXMAzcfdUHiYopDcdBk4ZX jnG+xzdw+BhuKyd95LNyq0dYz8zntP2ELokZskg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=1MvmZn 8c4gDz3ekvZmrlRxiu3BASWSgdKTBfG9CsCUw=; b=JjWhKTsavz6eCpX9pe1Vzf p/ZIC8clzZLS6DHQOJOj16y2MEENiCpDex3gTzhsb/at06XVXQZU3036ezKSYXdF GhUmkMMZ9WV8sY96y+GKjmGtg3Wn2Og4R6NjvYQLpHCe7JDPl7ke7fpwCYn/p4gA D33ZsF0CnOlniVIRJEJ3JjD7kbcpUwWuSsfuB8j4EBoI7vHTULwVd6n1oc9c5sLm slI7QyG9L7S2WpZ4T68eSexz6O2d5I/j/FQyrquZJcGLnfB/W4e0FYmIHC1cEGOD fL+unTpnk5mUm+9/S7/me6++lXXfvHQf8mXK3dt+azJD91S9M/ZDmqO/mMZsZd5w == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejtddgkeelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehfeetudduudehtdekhf dvhfetleffudejgeejffehffevkeduiefgueevkeefleenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvg ht X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id E7CFF3C0465; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 01:09:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1303-gb2406efd75-fm-20210922.002-gb2406efd Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <845e9ac2-2a75-4fd1-81ed-8f8bdfd81a43@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <98d787ef-82e2-4b65-8a43-6e0b8e21b8b3@www.fastmail.com> References: <3f5a2df3-87d1-42fd-9b32-f7c16657a3e7@www.fastmail.com> <98d787ef-82e2-4b65-8a43-6e0b8e21b8b3@www.fastmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 15:09:30 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] =?utf-8?q?When_I_have_a_draft_that_doesn=27t_tar?= =?utf-8?q?get_a_working_group=2C_I_break_things_=2E=2E=2E?= X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 05:10:01 -0000 On Fri, Sep 24, 2021, at 15:04, Martin Thomson wrote: > The latter seems to be a bug in xml2rfc because the resulting XML is > clearly permitted by RFC 7991. Correction: no bug. Y just have to get the case precisely correct. The attribute has to be removeInRFC="true" (or removeInRFC="1", because the value can be any number of things as long as the attribute name is 100% correct). Another win for the authoring format that hates authors. From nobody Thu Sep 23 22:58:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6592B3A191B for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:58:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TrdS4i-BJRoV for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAC713A191E for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [194.156.182.213]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HG1YK2hXcz2xJ8; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 07:58:29 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-666050A5-415C-4522-893A-A165EA199E52 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <98d787ef-82e2-4b65-8a43-6e0b8e21b8b3@www.fastmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 07:58:27 +0200 Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Tools Team Discussion Message-Id: <83292C91-E66E-4B40-96A6-ED23CFDC5C74@tzi.org> References: <98d787ef-82e2-4b65-8a43-6e0b8e21b8b3@www.fastmail.com> To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] When I have a draft that doesn't target a working group, I break things ... X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 05:58:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail-666050A5-415C-4522-893A-A165EA199E52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep, I included to_be=E2=80=A6 because the grammar gets in the way (and the w= hole way kramdown-rfc handles s is an ugly hack, ugh). =20 BTW, kramdown-rfc has a studlifier for known attribute names, so if you writ= e removeinrfc, that will be converted to the studlycaps du jour. Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > On 24. Sep 2021, at 07:05, Martin Thomson wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, Sep 24, 2021, at 14:56, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> {: removeinrfc=3D=E2=80=9Ctrue=E2=80=9D} >=20 > $ grep -B1 removeInRfc draft-thomson-notagroup-rot13.md > --- note_Please_Note > {: removeInRfc=3D"true"} > -- > # Introduction > {: removeInRfc=3D"true"} > $ make > ... > draft-thomson-notagroup-rot13.xml(33): Error: Invalid attribute removeInRf= c for element t, at /rfc/front/note/t > draft-thomson-notagroup-rot13.xml(37): Error: Invalid attribute removeInRf= c for element section, at /rfc/middle/section[1] >=20 > And I realize that I forgot https://github.com/cabo/kramdown-rfc2629/issue= s/71 which means using to_be_removed_note_Please_Note instead. >=20 > The latter seems to be a bug in xml2rfc because the resulting XML is clear= ly permitted by RFC 7991. --Apple-Mail-666050A5-415C-4522-893A-A165EA199E52 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep, I included to_be=E2=80=A6 because the g= rammar gets in the way (and the whole way kramdown-rfc handles <note>s= is an ugly hack, ugh).  

BTW, kramdown-rfc has a st= udlifier for known attribute names, so if you write removeinrfc, that will b= e converted to the studlycaps du jour.

Sent from&nbs= p;mobile, sorry for terse

On 24. Sep 2021, at 07:05, Martin T= homson <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFOn Fri, Sep 24, 2021, at 14:= 56, Carsten Bormann wrote:
{: remo= veinrfc=3D=E2=80=9Ctrue=E2=80=9D}

$ grep -B1 removeInRfc draft-thomson-notagroup-rot13.md
= --- note_Please_Note
{: removeInRfc=3D"true"}
--
# Introduction
{: removeInRfc=3D"true"}=
$ make
...
draft-thomson-no= tagroup-rot13.xml(33): Error: Invalid attribute removeInRfc for element t, a= t /rfc/front/note/t
draft-thomson-notagroup-rot13.xml(37): E= rror: Invalid attribute removeInRfc for element section, at /rfc/middle/sect= ion[1]

And I realize that I forgot https://= github.com/cabo/kramdown-rfc2629/issues/71 which means using to_be_removed_n= ote_Please_Note instead.

The latter seems t= o be a bug in xml2rfc because the resulting XML is clearly permitted by RFC 7= 991.
= --Apple-Mail-666050A5-415C-4522-893A-A165EA199E52-- From nobody Fri Sep 24 12:15:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AEB3A1289 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 12:15:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JrPfrxydrIwD for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 12:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B65CE3A1288 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 12:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18OJFW1W037106 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 14:15:33 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1632510933; bh=G64pks9b32OLlv8RQOEV6dWdz4csOhxGejZLWhW+CWQ=; h=Subject:References:To:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=kL7L7dlKs+EY0lLeWn7W2Vjr/AB2nJPBYIolkxwnd7wlKitbUL+Tk/r4LNB8a6L+X 1jG09lsqCHvSTRB8VUy70msf68b/RZYKja29DQ8TnpbmXm2TgAK7hEL/9t5DtjZ7Wa PWR69b7LtCEIU7MexvxHY36loIvXD/u7bZLNh+mA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain References: To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks X-Forwarded-Message-Id: Message-ID: <5bf70e7c-00a8-c38a-5c49-2f63f0a141a1@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 14:15:27 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3E423CAEFB3AB8F420DE3943" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: [rfc-i] When is a new version of xml2rfc used by the submission tool? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:15:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3E423CAEFB3AB8F420DE3943 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------990E6690D9C35C42C101CB4F" --------------990E6690D9C35C42C101CB4F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [rfc-i] When is a new version of xml2rfc used by the submission tool? Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 14:14:15 -0500 From: Robert Sparks To: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org I have done this - the datatracker is now running 3.10.0 On 9/24/21 10:17 AM, Robert Sparks wrote: > > Normally, the datatracker would pick up a new version of xml2rfc at > its next release, which I expect to be next week. > > I can patch this in today though to help limit the window of having to > guess. > > RjS > > On 9/24/21 9:51 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Note that the rfcxml fork will also be visible with a delay by people >> using various canned collections of tools, including Martin Thomson’s >> I-d-template. >> >> Sent from mobile, sorry for terse >> >>> On 24. Sep 2021, at 16:14, Marc Petit-Huguenin >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> When a new version of xml2rfc released, is it immediately used by >>> the submission tool, or is there is a delay?  If it is the latter, >>> how do I know which version will be used when submitting? >>> >>> This is related to the double-quote with .  If the submission >>> tool uses 3.10.0, then I need to add the double-quotes manually >>> before submitting, and I do not want to have to submit twice if I >>> guessed wrong. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> -- >>> Marc Petit-Huguenin >>> Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org >>> Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org >>> Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rfc-interest mailing list >>> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rfc-interest mailing list >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest --------------990E6690D9C35C42C101CB4F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

FYI.


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] When is a new version of xml2rfc used by the submission tool?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 14:14:15 -0500
From: Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com>
To: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org


I have done this - the datatracker is now running 3.10.0

On 9/24/21 10:17 AM, Robert Sparks wrote:

Normally, the datatracker would pick up a new version of xml2rfc at its next release, which I expect to be next week.

I can patch this in today though to help limit the window of having to guess.

RjS

On 9/24/21 9:51 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
Note that the rfcxml fork will also be visible with a delay by people using various canned collections of tools, including Martin Thomson’s I-d-template. 

Sent from mobile, sorry for terse

On 24. Sep 2021, at 16:14, Marc Petit-Huguenin <marc@petit-huguenin.org> wrote:

Hi,

When a new version of xml2rfc released, is it immediately used by the submission tool, or is there is a delay?  If it is the latter, how do I know which version will be used when submitting?

This is related to the double-quote with <tt>.  If the submission tool uses 3.10.0, then I need to add the double-quotes manually before submitting, and I do not want to have to submit twice if I guessed wrong.

Thanks.

--
Marc Petit-Huguenin
Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org
Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug
_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest

_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest


_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
--------------990E6690D9C35C42C101CB4F-- --------------3E423CAEFB3AB8F420DE3943 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="Attached Message Part" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Attached Message Part" X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KcmZjLWlu dGVyZXN0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApyZmMtaW50ZXJlc3RAcmZjLWVkaXRvci5vcmcKaHR0cHM6 Ly93d3cucmZjLWVkaXRvci5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9yZmMtaW50ZXJlc3QKCg== --------------3E423CAEFB3AB8F420DE3943-- From nobody Fri Sep 24 17:20:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5167B3A2227 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:20:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H0YiohecBFxI for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x931.google.com (mail-ua1-x931.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::931]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1D873A2222 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x931.google.com with SMTP id r8so7780635uap.0 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:20:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=K9VtUvCaeRWp6+w4Phz7TrU69InyIDb02iT1cGgkS6c=; b=kSOSTyFQoNNQnz6lU6sRqtCJTv+lCd4BQPiAFJRExKw3dl2EfV4zUQwUrS+ocRU3iP bYyE6n6rKcAjPA15iJZnw2Pk0dJi9FH3gZHqMpzDFCcXQks0HMotmWobSMBM4oyqN73z DkkpCs5i1klnTIjQyNGXoEKfXoQee8WASVYETemiDXhUq8qpa2r6Lq4d/rF+1cU9d2vF X9ymTWzqO9PDeWRwhxkdrbd2hmy/TKJ1gDAQIkDszVYLHyo7pfl2PcsQvkv7uBx1b6Ya vys9LayFsF8GnhpdmFkIfM59LIBBGNVnwY+wA3hkA88fRsde2+TS3E6y6VUrqYTccenb la+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K9VtUvCaeRWp6+w4Phz7TrU69InyIDb02iT1cGgkS6c=; b=XL5euliqCVWFs3x2mxeLSigv9EPyXOOxlAGTTdMGbsXoEsY7y8rQyzUGMgpSXeqiWy 5aeFNA5i+TOMLDKa+imw1lbSpwz9PSNVD/UHXbNSrYs6WmAJIOKVA8wXPDpovHsXKS4r lJ78kgYu2WmD8Fg6017t4kbxCi5S4HjBUCprq9oe3ZObgp2CpSd8xnPwlJXX5e9ye9LQ ZdYkW56T273YsoNo6e6DLy0GnFcQGn92BkZlI56I0+knLKKv4Aq555il0sCisrKQG29b DFNtMBfrTN7bPa51CGn7LLtwJHwiUhXDT1Ys0robR/hOeQNRGJl5DoEGdPdVPgxqvAL+ ZXnw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530H7T/7B+AQFndrbgmkAnX6Gi5K8lMx4+lr62f08UE6JlcRhdlP zFLZ8+ffgafhVO4irB46YIBszT5V9FzBRufzvTo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzoF2fHA4UQgqXY4SQ1eT7SNPWoEKdWo+6YcKIxjL6oShCREyLEAcLsGAYPdY3cx4SsLilUS3KdzcPrfvE+DFs= X-Received: by 2002:a9f:37ca:: with SMTP id q68mr12247964uaq.45.1632529227611; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:20:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <63283086-3f57-45c9-9600-63a6e70f4aab@www.fastmail.com> <3f5a2df3-87d1-42fd-9b32-f7c16657a3e7@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3f5a2df3-87d1-42fd-9b32-f7c16657a3e7@www.fastmail.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:20:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b2833605ccc6d448" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] When I have a draft that doesn't target a working group, I break things ... X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 00:20:34 -0000 --000000000000b2833605ccc6d448 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Martin, On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 11:38 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > On Fri, Sep 24, 2021, at 14:22, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > > As Rich said, the corner cases are easier to find when they show up on > > their own, and you know you can count on me for corner cases (not just > > with the toolset, either!) > > It's a talent, for sure. That you take the time to write up what you > learn is greatly appreciated. > > In this case, I've revised the process somewhat and you should find that > the broken information is no longer being added. Rather than add bad > information, I've chosen to remove the relevant sections. The datatracke= r > API has a few unexpected quirks that I failed to account for. > > > I did have one question - it seems reasonable to generate the same text > > for the new section in the draft and for the CONTRIBUTING.md file, > > since they contain the same information. Is that possible? I can pretty > > trivially put the information from my notes.xml file in my > > CONTRIBUTING.md file, but having one of those in XML and the other in > > Markdown seemed odd ... > > Yeah, when you have special constraints, this is what you get. It makes > sense to do the common stuff, like drafts targeted at a working group. > Beyond that, it's hard. > You definitely started on the 80 percent case, which means that 80 percent of your users thank you :=F0=9F=98=89 > The reason that I use XML for the note is that - unless things have > changed - you can't mark sections as "removeInRfc" in markdown. If you > have special text, then adding the information to both is a little more > work, but I'm sure that your readers and contributors will appreciate the > effort. > > I could automatically add a link to the CONTRIBUTING.md file in the note > to readers if you would prefer to just edit the one location. ISTM that getting that information right, and by "right", I mean "not wrong", is more likely if it's only in one place. It did take me a while to notice the automatically-generated section, because I was looking at the abstract and then skipping down to the Introduction. It happens that I try to get the CONTRIBUTING.md file right, because I know it is referenced on the front page of the Github repo, for what that's worth. So, for Spencer, pointing to the CONTRIBUTING.md file would have been a win, especially if you can do that as a fallback, if you see that the draft filename doesn't seem to point to an active working group mailing list. Does that make sense? Best, Spencer --000000000000b2833605ccc6d448 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Martin,=C2=A0

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at = 11:38 PM Martin Thomson <mt@lowentr= opy.net> wrote:
On Fri, Sep 24, 2021, at 14:22, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> As Rich said, the corner cases are easier to find when they show up on=
> their own, and you know you can count on me for corner cases (not just=
> with the toolset, either!)

It's a talent, for sure.=C2=A0 That you take the time to write up what = you learn is greatly appreciated.

In this case, I've revised the process somewhat and you should find tha= t the broken information is no longer being added.=C2=A0 Rather than add ba= d information, I've chosen to remove the relevant sections.=C2=A0 The d= atatracker API has a few unexpected quirks that I failed to account for.
> I did have one question - it seems reasonable to generate the same tex= t
> for the new section in the draft and for the CONTRIBUTING.md file, > since they contain the same information. Is that possible? I can prett= y
> trivially put the information from my notes.xml file in my
> CONTRIBUTING.md file, but having one of those in XML and the other in =
> Markdown seemed odd ...

Yeah, when you have special constraints, this is what you get.=C2=A0 It mak= es sense to do the common stuff, like drafts targeted at a working group.= =C2=A0 Beyond that, it's hard.

You = definitely started on the 80 percent case, which means that 80 percent of y= our users thank you :=F0=9F=98=89
=C2=A0
The reason that I use XML for the note is = that - unless things have changed - you can't mark sections as "re= moveInRfc" in markdown.=C2=A0 If you have special text, then adding th= e information to both is a little more work, but I'm sure that your rea= ders and contributors will appreciate the effort.

I could automatically add a link to the CONTRIBUTING.md file in the note to= readers if you would prefer to just edit the one location.

ISTM that getting that information right, and by "rig= ht", I mean "not wrong", is more likely if it's only in = one place.=C2=A0

It did take me a while to notice = the automatically-generated section, because I was looking at the abstract = and then skipping down to the Introduction.=C2=A0

= It happens that I try to get the CONTRIBUTING.md file right, because I know= it is referenced on the front page of the Github repo, for what that's= worth.

So, for Spencer, pointing to the CONTRIBUT= ING.md file would have been a win, especially if you can do that as a fallb= ack, if you see that the draft filename doesn't seem to point to an act= ive working group mailing list.

Does that make sen= se?

Best,

Spencer
--000000000000b2833605ccc6d448-- From nobody Mon Sep 27 13:41:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDD33A19AC for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 13:41:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=alum.mit.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ch3ZxG8qPWWN for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 13:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM04-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam08on2086.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.101.86]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 147533A19AB for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 13:40:57 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=L0jgDghYEDMzsRJXKHnHgAX9zI/zAxxtXapN/+03kiQ4X/bIlTsudN/P6mAe6GFptHZWsgDRdV8R9jGJL6HNk14SwH0RLNhqLkvljg8QlGOirM4nfxFkfprnO7Qf2eu/+aRXK4mvgQfydnbQW8UYQoY09CXm+FEJYZJ+bi9ud2mqlaGUq6llauw1loCk4mpdJMG/BzQeniX7gZwfW0ckP0ZXJaUCqF/RzxMpQ93TYRZYCxkpYyAH38N9qh4cAUVW+uXH/epW+zCr92LE5APZY+gh8BNoxS+BV34Hd8IOR284t8NDzaQkbg4vNGLYMl3ibr+Mxl+dlNMkyp0zPCmaWg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=57qvyGc7I7fHTi9AiP4Fy7490pnJk5gMSJGf1fYCsZA=; b=hrFWGB0gRm1NYJFVHc6yPOP8D/U40Nv66kLhEK3ZwT/aPkE8szd4s7IXBgO+WhDADGd+33/iTimaCaGJ9ETju1stw705MaAk1bAwk6/SryceY7+9lANe2t/foSCxYAWk08p+mCAZvUXPc/FS30QZsMvHbgWMfDjZBqG5i8JS12id0M2NIall9rVgJs2e5jRcXh7NCpKe6jIXDa+m02tq6IU5aQ+s4lUBSEWk2ST6z1GpjZwyMsdXQGczaWkCRSTIKobUK2c0HbLz8NGde6CK46T3GjOVaYuLFHIjbA2drNPAnuQoXe7+1jA6wb3rFDcsqu1KVtZkly20/xA8dT5bEQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass (sender ip is 18.7.68.33) smtp.rcpttodomain=ietf.org smtp.mailfrom=alum.mit.edu; dmarc=bestguesspass action=none header.from=alum.mit.edu; dkim=none (message not signed); arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alum.mit.edu; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=57qvyGc7I7fHTi9AiP4Fy7490pnJk5gMSJGf1fYCsZA=; b=IdVXc1YtaCVuuCfJ3+V1qQFeRSifG5gXNMOxR+SUZYZw3OiwWvooAMC1tWTF5hZHdHrzmxskuYxpkX4G6EeisxxtS/zOJqSjCoTC3kFGyHL6RdpyIjqavupR8X2QdhSEAr63LfVAjrLvp5gjPpWAVlNS9qW47tR0ftFHwBrneEI= Received: from BN6PR21CA0007.namprd21.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:404:8e::17) by DM5PR1201MB0041.namprd12.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:4:56::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4544.18; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 20:40:52 +0000 Received: from BN1NAM02FT036.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com (2603:10b6:404:8e:cafe::49) by BN6PR21CA0007.outlook.office365.com (2603:10b6:404:8e::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4587.2 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 20:40:52 +0000 X-MS-Exchange-Authentication-Results: spf=pass (sender IP is 18.7.68.33) smtp.mailfrom=alum.mit.edu; ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=bestguesspass action=none header.from=alum.mit.edu; Received-SPF: Pass (protection.outlook.com: domain of alum.mit.edu designates 18.7.68.33 as permitted sender) receiver=protection.outlook.com; client-ip=18.7.68.33; helo=outgoing-alum.mit.edu; Received: from outgoing-alum.mit.edu (18.7.68.33) by BN1NAM02FT036.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.13.2.147) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4544.13 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 20:40:51 +0000 Received: from MacBook-Air.localdomain (c-24-62-227-142.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.62.227.142]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as pkyzivat@ALUM.MIT.EDU) by outgoing-alum.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 18RKemrp018183 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 16:40:50 -0400 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 16:40:48 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 2fa70ebd-0766-4636-8c3f-08d981f7183b X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DM5PR1201MB0041: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:9508; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:18.7.68.33; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; PTR:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; CAT:NONE; SFS:(6029001)(36840700001)(46966006)(36860700001)(3480700007)(2906002)(2616005)(316002)(83380400001)(82310400003)(956004)(508600001)(75432002)(4744005)(6916009)(966005)(336012)(7116003)(356005)(31696002)(26005)(8936002)(186003)(5660300002)(7596003)(70586007)(70206006)(47076005)(8676002)(86362001)(31686004)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Sep 2021 20:40:51.2457 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2fa70ebd-0766-4636-8c3f-08d981f7183b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN1NAM02FT036.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR1201MB0041 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Status of IdNits X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 20:41:03 -0000 Is the proper version of IdNits to be using the one at: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits Its been acting flakey recently. I know there are issues with tools that makes it slow, but I'm seeing problems beyond that. Of particular concern right now I'm getting: tmp/draft-ietf-rum-rue-08.txt(1893): Found non-ascii character (�) in position 42. tmp/draft-ietf-rum-rue-08.txt(1914): Found non-ascii character (�) in position 22. But those line numbers are well beyond the end of the file. There are only 1097 lines in the xml and only 1602 lines in the generated txt. (This source has not yet been uploaded, so don't bother looking for it.) Is this a known problem? Is there a work-around? Or shall I just ignore it? Thanks, Paul From nobody Mon Sep 27 14:01:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 924CC3A1A9D for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:01:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id klo9AYfUkZHx for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B8F83A1A9A for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id g13-20020a17090a3c8d00b00196286963b9so136418pjc.3 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:01:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to :date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=XCv939G6Z5DXlJKYCXIID4hM/TF17pjRXmAY5hL9HXE=; b=Rjt6m3tZCPxQy0yoX9lGXsVsasxIBut2/oCibtz4ZXk9Un7YP8dlDJ8//IrTz/sSS4 KjCbX993M72I3n7pYxEoTVm20pufze7gOeQByUbkWv0QE3e+XDWgo4oUbrZr686bKHbR 6puPbZCIgVonjlKQXCYMteKh69hJsHlSdg//UzqKJSCyydGiD0KtR5rdTBrB0uxZDNoW xwrZ7jtjTcczIfAxlc2KV5NR6nYYdqdZu/Z0S9PPCu3fGSW+1ZVnYrPjySKYKLcEYjmS FkYxBIi4EY3k2K2mJ/HeJi9AA7ns+qrLrmgLcTunG1FxVyQhldXpgNYarHFnUnbPTHAe BZTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=XCv939G6Z5DXlJKYCXIID4hM/TF17pjRXmAY5hL9HXE=; b=y+yud6m0Werw+7qr40nkbkQsDAzgf+3lFW2ZBzpgpdFqGNHe3+wuVHkPXi0RkPB5UN vGa9gzZ/4JY79d1mxj10ReFLMDqbOTCd5bcFt9CgCY5z8ZGsA2vA+ABeezfMUD07sDbN KfVeAo945CjZTvcfebiJe+893rjpiNkPcBnVZlBsg1DT99zd3BzDrpi3YsvquHYxkdHw nMa8xS+feoLca6rkTqyN6XIad4sz1HqstvtCHT/1tdCMW5xXBoPPluOX3zCu1GZDMtHJ EG/yJdyQEQPmjzguGe0ravZBXoXTODAtXi2OjkVNzpdoxJxdaGMeNWzDqJKLw4/e17R0 lyPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530OwMy7dMdp4bWxwF1Dw2z+3qMUhxJMO9HhBmVaeaXQSHjfuaG8 Kw2R5a85dh9JSpfrIT48ePeXvHZshxI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyUU8leq4DBCO6gzbW6RPRl4oNa7l/2YMIFA779Lnbad7R2XIpZM43xgJMZ61vcDi0fQJyNxQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:f00a:: with SMTP id bt10mr1220071pjb.96.1632776468704; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2607:fb90:a63b:c30d:b9c8:ab8f:d9a1:23d8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r2sm19593042pgn.8.2021.09.27.14.01.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-767A4170-6592-44D5-B714-157854790633 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Bob Hinden In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:01:06 -0700 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-Id: <7E9F9CC6-89D9-4A93-8B3E-B1FD7B1FBC0B@gmail.com> References: To: Paul Kyzivat X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19A346) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Status of IdNits X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:01:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail-767A4170-6592-44D5-B714-157854790633 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I use=20 https://www6.ietf.org/tools/idnits Bob > On Sep 27, 2021, at 13:41, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFIs the proper version of IdNits to be using the one at: >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits >=20 > Its been acting flakey recently. I know there are issues with tools that m= akes it slow, but I'm seeing problems beyond that. >=20 > Of particular concern right now I'm getting: >=20 > tmp/draft-ietf-rum-rue-08.txt(1893): Found non-ascii character (=EF=BF=BD)= in position 42. > tmp/draft-ietf-rum-rue-08.txt(1914): Found non-ascii character (=EF=BF=BD)= in position 22. >=20 > But those line numbers are well beyond the end of the file. There are only= 1097 lines in the xml and only 1602 lines in the generated txt. >=20 > (This source has not yet been uploaded, so don't bother looking for it.) >=20 > Is this a known problem? Is there a work-around? Or shall I just ignore it= ? >=20 > Thanks, > Paul >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org= > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/tools-discuss --Apple-Mail-767A4170-6592-44D5-B714-157854790633 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I u= se 


Bob


On Sep 27, 2021, at 13:41, P= aul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
=EF=BB=BFIs the proper versi= on of IdNits to be using the one at:

https:= //tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits

Its been acti= ng flakey recently. I know there are issues with tools that makes it slow, b= ut I'm seeing problems beyond that.

Of part= icular concern right now I'm getting:

tmp/d= raft-ietf-rum-rue-08.txt(1893): Found non-ascii character (=EF=BF=BD) in pos= ition 42.
tmp/draft-ietf-rum-rue-08.txt(1914): Found non-asc= ii character (=EF=BF=BD) in position 22.

Bu= t those line numbers are well beyond the end of the file. There are only 109= 7 lines in the xml and only 1602 lines in the generated txt.

(This source has not yet been uploaded, so don't bother lo= oking for it.)

Is this a known problem? Is t= here a work-around? Or shall I just ignore it?

   Thanks,
   Paul

__________________________________________________________= _
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org=
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug report= s.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker= -project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster= @tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-a= ction@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
= --Apple-Mail-767A4170-6592-44D5-B714-157854790633-- From nobody Tue Sep 28 12:54:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC013A0E2D for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 12:54:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LyUbFVpcsSqa for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 12:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52f.google.com (mail-pg1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F6A33A0E53 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 12:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id 75so237302pga.3 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 12:54:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hPpvX/0QtTeB3VSo7IsV922QMCyzyQ3xQBfk636TcwI=; b=d0cmptV51c19hFtfRP03aT2U2pEgcq8F1W+ZEfFtzh5VFPf9Yje2IO1CapnpFUy0Qs TQIo7HA5SM48C7oSc5TmfFU2b9Wqm5ylEQ9uNlc2wQ++6TJ1lOJRHZFMP22uvkBcSjpj HREJ6WoL2vghNycLtYhh6Xt+fcmnrHBy+KRXrHh3IgQIuqcy/6lBgp6zEtDH/+Lu9YW1 j/hFZO+XiOuneiQC9GHbKlYp9D3EAtTUJXSXBsX3HSqePrJV7+ZYy/rYpPGJqMwfNrKg J/R/bU/0kiHFtMSwE40nupiLSIASb/FLFa8RWieFJq2i/hUB8DPObWyG9xQwPJehWKFb 06Qw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hPpvX/0QtTeB3VSo7IsV922QMCyzyQ3xQBfk636TcwI=; b=qLZ8E0fTEs5LvaJM/evkOuQdCrr+3FQfCNuZ+QVNNMxrBX7sTGEGK+MSlq04YWvjeN ksrthq52wStwtdOfGMj1uzyNqLGi8ZbozNOKLFFla1EZLheMSo62tH02hhPDA3NbhDlC qHqF+jenC/Iw9vdWWvGv8YWCbG4l8GJwXsuxh8rF7+dNRE7yzO0ms1Aowg4Pc8xTVWLn pf2s8AbGI83khzHGTEH5VYwtjzYoRg2pxAaks7ae+wFcP/8E4WLj29FzPIFuxW+H+r6x iqAkQ64hYLCKVv8iCT3Z3IHLf1ezqEIo+XN24fLUG9PNv+EPhNt4sJbT3VPFhC9yLPlm ekBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Zxg0Z/v+iQwgbz5FsIR+cy23dVpyjOtxuJEcNmRJyM5mAf+76 AgDaFadPvCXFCaQjU1itQggoDh1A34zWug== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxBi6bVGIgpymZeN4J7ck/X7Pm3ng3K2deGcskZomsD07kdbCw6hjbDqpbMknte8RRtcZCNeA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:da14:: with SMTP id c20mr6140294pgh.155.1632858869453; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 12:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f27sm3894pfq.78.2021.09.28.12.54.28 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Sep 2021 12:54:29 -0700 (PDT) To: Tools Team Discussion From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 08:54:25 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] One RFC, two streams X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 19:54:37 -0000 Hi, I'm not sure if this belongs here or on rfc-interest. I have noticed that the datatracker identifies RFC2850 as being in the IAB Stream, but it is a BCP, which to me says that it must be in the IETF Stream. It was indeed Last Called in the IETF and formally approved by the IESG, following the RFC2026 process. It was also approved by the IAB. It is logically, therefore, in both streams (although the streams had not been defined at the time of publication). Can an RFC be marked as belonging simultaneously to two streams? If not, why not? Which tooling would need to be changed? (This may seem like a corner case but it may not be unique for much longer.) Regards Brian Carpenter https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc2850/ https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc2850 From nobody Tue Sep 28 15:12:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02ABD3A0C54 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:12:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4jsH9VoKMi89 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 419463A0C50 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.200] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 18SMCVvd083343 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:12:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.32.60.200] From: Paul Hoffman To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Tools Team Discussion Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:12:44 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5798) Message-ID: <9A729CD7-20EC-471D-ACB0-3AB9CD537A39@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] One RFC, two streams X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 22:12:51 -0000 On 28 Sep 2021, at 12:54, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I'm not sure if this belongs here or on rfc-interest. > > I have noticed that the datatracker identifies RFC2850 as being in the > IAB Stream, but it is a BCP, which to me says that it must be in the > IETF Stream. Yeeps. Good call. Not sure where this should be discussed, but it definitely needs to be discussed. We have been pretty strong on "IAB stream RFCs are not standards" and "BCPs are standards". --Paul Hoffman From nobody Wed Sep 29 06:42:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584A73A1862 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:42:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f1Pz_h1zZxaN for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 371353A1860 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18TDftLg077661 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 08:41:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1632922915; bh=mypgHiT/FHl6mfFEdy+71iuOfzsWGjdN31zlQUzXPVU=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=aK0GymsZtP+XSx8Lfu2xVqGAlFVctGdfGQBB3CqhELxtogaQEyRKai2BOHg0Nh34Z 8En/Z804IyUGJo60RSx4CVKRtB79pwPmyELtr6RqP2Dna4XU6vYgfQvU2s5U4pe8V1 pea0Cvyt3tfYMIr8LgA4R0NoiPr0jQzayodnoZfQ= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <9A729CD7-20EC-471D-ACB0-3AB9CD537A39@vpnc.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 08:41:49 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9A729CD7-20EC-471D-ACB0-3AB9CD537A39@vpnc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] One RFC, two streams X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:42:03 -0000 On 9/28/21 5:12 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > On 28 Sep 2021, at 12:54, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> I'm not sure if this belongs here or on rfc-interest. >> >> I have noticed that the datatracker identifies RFC2850 as being in >> the IAB Stream, but it is a BCP, which to me says that it must be in >> the IETF Stream. > > Yeeps. Good call. Not sure where this should be discussed, but it > definitely needs to be discussed. We have been pretty strong on "IAB > stream RFCs are not standards" and "BCPs are standards". I think you'll find disagreement about BCPs being standards, and definitely about whether they are on the standards track. _I_ think they're stronger than standards, but I've had lots of arguments with IESGs over the years about that - it occasionally comes up to argue about whether a reference to a BCP from a PS is a downref for instance. IMHO,  "What is a BCP" question is a murky swamp. > > > --Paul Hoffman > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Wed Sep 29 06:52:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2743A18AE for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:52:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id olIxog7mqEZZ for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D32F3A18A9 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18TDqBp9091064 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 08:52:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1632923531; bh=s8De/R7Gxgx8dFihD3WiiIf60T5fmeTIrvJX6Ii1rsE=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=QO7DNkckv8d8k1QgM345Rzgs0XCTxrb97KA3ZUk+sJzvQPZL+Kx8aGHe6C+tCiGXU hQcLwRlpXiDS3uQQ/+RRv3D8Cq1AmipZpPwpaL/tfScPFQz95sMSiYrRtk+Nctw1Wn 0yt7V2WJFmEoOskndFUrkx2OTIp4t0Wp/l7+irbY= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <29ac4aaf-3bb8-2206-5525-08e512ebcb58@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 08:52:05 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] One RFC, two streams X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:52:19 -0000 There are surely things that would have to change in the rfc-editor=20 tooling that I don't know about, so this isn't comprehensive. The grammar in xml2rfc would have to change - the assumption that a=20 document belongs to 0 or 1 streams is deeply baked in. Decisions would=20 need to be made about how to render having more than one stream. The datatracker would have to change significantly - there are lots of=20 places where process is modeled (to help users through it) that would=20 have to learn about the possibility of multiple streams. Decisions would = need to be made about what happens with the intersection of process=20 requirements on the two streams and those would have to be reflected.=20 The one stream assumption is again quite deeply baked in and it would=20 take a thorough scrubbing to change it. It would be possible to adjust those two codebases but it would be a=20 medium large problem to work through. Do consider, though, that there are decades of accrual of _other_ things = (software at other SDOs, etc) out there that use our products that=20 assume one stream per document. RjS On 9/28/21 2:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi, > > I'm not sure if this belongs here or on rfc-interest. > > I have noticed that the datatracker identifies RFC2850 as being in the = IAB Stream, but it is a BCP, which to me says that it must be in the IETF= Stream. It was indeed Last Called in the IETF and formally approved by t= he IESG, following the RFC2026 process. It was also approved by the IAB. = It is logically, therefore, in both streams (although the streams had not= been defined at the time of publication). > > Can an RFC be marked as belonging simultaneously to two streams? If not= , why not? Which tooling would need to be changed? > > (This may seem like a corner case but it may not be unique for much lon= ger.) > =20 > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc2850/ > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc2850 > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Wed Sep 29 07:32:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7169E3A1A24 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:32:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LCrCUQ3K5XgK for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15F763A1A14 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18TEWYY6047121 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:32:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1632925956; bh=A2kaRASH6jAOoPM6k1yL+igbDsj6s4vSR1OhoK2PqhI=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=HW5Ye/o4V31D9yiL4WbclXHfuc9i1AjWtAVNZ3Widm5MgheoGEi5RQGKFhJZ/BZW1 k3AI/JPEyjTlPh01E0DqHgSbHo01chmr51bNreNaMxhULBK7QO7ax6WjB3efHjp8Hj Nd1d9APAI3vthAcwIyyAIuKhEAJ6BqHuByAbIMsI= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:32:29 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Status of IdNits X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:32:44 -0000 I'm working with Paul on this directly, but the larger answer is "Ignore this if you know you've included non-ascii characters in the document, like in someone's name". (In this case, the warning are because of are because of things like this in the txt file: '   [RFC8865]  Holmberg, C. and G. Hellström, "T.140 Real-Time Text' I believe the line numbers reported below are actually relevant to help find the characters if you didn't mean to include them. A future version of idnits will be aware that we allow non-ascii UTF-8 in documents now. RjS On 9/27/21 3:40 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > Is the proper version of IdNits to be using the one at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits > > Its been acting flakey recently. I know there are issues with tools > that makes it slow, but I'm seeing problems beyond that. > > Of particular concern right now I'm getting: > > tmp/draft-ietf-rum-rue-08.txt(1893): Found non-ascii character (�) in > position 42. > tmp/draft-ietf-rum-rue-08.txt(1914): Found non-ascii character (�) in > position 22. > > But those line numbers are well beyond the end of the file. There are > only 1097 lines in the xml and only 1602 lines in the generated txt. > > (This source has not yet been uploaded, so don't bother looking for it.) > > Is this a known problem? Is there a work-around? Or shall I just > ignore it? > >     Thanks, >     Paul > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Wed Sep 29 07:41:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 081A03A1A6E for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:41:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V9MWtKQDB5Em for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79BE33A1A6B for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18TCmBHi031839 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:41:39 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=sxoZdFV22Y3FEP5WlmWrfDGGmGfzuqmp+nd8XpGXBOo=; b=Mz+cR/XIDvYuasizbz8XZg6KpOeT2BvS5ub9ZmSD0X86fsXzJZc6XQLHAy/Uoi68NXXw eaIsrgrxu6BqCfpaKRg1Gey2OZLwAJ/ZLChjqMDvdu+n2Fe+un0YBcaQU8AHe/LYHKFr ZGnMdp+1DAoggkwf7BUVDGIKTOrRZNprucHBUaHfC8XCfZGbXe+emFOVRpz11FZOifW8 mxpJ5JlMFuk3KygfDjLfRHFbQ+73WWNUTC7YHwAI0+eli0wAHucr5+BMvBu6HJ3vyqLn +nUruusM3rNkwupDPwbUzb+3V+2o29x8rNFbSzRT+sEADZQpuT+vsw9m2czCojQYOEi7 cw== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 3bcmprqan0-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:41:39 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18TEe1q3025069 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:41:38 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.53]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3bced6gwc5-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:41:38 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 10:41:37 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 10:41:37 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Tools Team Discussion Thread-Topic: timezone mirror? Thread-Index: AQHXtUAbM+VSLslWY0OEKHKf8NNvZg== Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:41:36 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.53.21091200 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_EDBCC02CB6D547CDB8D8C6E05C65F2FDakamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-29_06:2021-09-29, 2021-09-29 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=513 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2109290090 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 8gYi0YK8L9RKseFlxT1tqB7PP5IkPLA0 X-Proofpoint-GUID: 8gYi0YK8L9RKseFlxT1tqB7PP5IkPLA0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-29_05,2021-09-29_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1015 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=414 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2109290090 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] timezone mirror? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:41:46 -0000 --_000_EDBCC02CB6D547CDB8D8C6E05C65F2FDakamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2FzIHRoaXMgdG9waWMgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIGhlcmU/ICBBYm91dCBub3QgbWlycm9yaW5nIHRoZSBJ QU5BIHRpbWV6b25lIGRhdGFiYXNlPyAgT3Igd2FzIGl0IGluIHRoZSBOVFAgd29ya2luZyBncm91 cD8NCg0KRWl0aGVyIHdheSwgZ2l2ZW4gdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgY29udHJvdmVyc2llcywgaXQgc2Vl bXMgcHJlc2NpZW50Lg0K --_000_EDBCC02CB6D547CDB8D8C6E05C65F2FDakamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FtYnJpYSBNYXRoIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDQgNSAzIDUgNCA2 IDMgMiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToy IDE1IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAzIDIgNDt9DQovKiBTdHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3Jt YWwsIGxpLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgZGl2Lk1zb05vcm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGluOw0KCWZvbnQtc2l6 ZToxMi4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5FbWFp bFN0eWxlMTcNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6cGVyc29uYWwtY29tcG9zZTsNCglmb250LWZhbWls eToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsNCgljb2xvcjp3aW5kb3d0ZXh0O30NCi5Nc29DaHBEZWZh dWx0DQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOmV4cG9ydC1vbmx5Ow0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQ7DQoJ Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0KQHBhZ2UgV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJ e3NpemU6OC41aW4gMTEuMGluOw0KCW1hcmdpbjoxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbjt9DQpk aXYuV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3BhZ2U6V29yZFNlY3Rpb24xO30NCi0tPjwvc3R5bGU+DQo8L2hl YWQ+DQo8Ym9keSBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyIgbGluaz0iIzA1NjNDMSIgdmxpbms9IiM5NTRGNzIiIHN0 eWxlPSJ3b3JkLXdyYXA6YnJlYWstd29yZCI+DQo8ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0K PHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPldhcyB0 aGlzIHRvcGljIGRpc2N1c3NlZCBoZXJlPyZuYnNwOyBBYm91dCBub3QgbWlycm9yaW5nIHRoZSBJ QU5BIHRpbWV6b25lIGRhdGFiYXNlPyZuYnNwOyBPciB3YXMgaXQgaW4gdGhlIE5UUCB3b3JraW5n IGdyb3VwPzxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFu IHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ij48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8 cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBwdCI+RWl0aGVy IHdheSwgZ2l2ZW4gdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgY29udHJvdmVyc2llcywgaXQgc2VlbXMgcHJlc2NpZW50 LjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_EDBCC02CB6D547CDB8D8C6E05C65F2FDakamaicom_-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 07:46:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB49A3A1A94 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:46:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q_xRZkja0GFD for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 552263A1A91 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HKK2R4Lkrz2xdk; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:46:39 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:46:39 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 654619599.093045-72fb424df765f60b79a27bdf3e754d60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1F610571-2CA4-4B93-8467-DB6F6E45480C@tzi.org> References: To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Status of IdNits X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:46:47 -0000 On 2021-09-29, at 16:32, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > help find the characters if you didn't mean to include them. This reminds me of a gap that we have in the authoring information = model:=20 If a tool is meant to find unusual, but not outright forbidden, things, = it would be good if the author could acknowledge that a particular = instance of this actually was meant to be like this. (#pragma warning disable=E2=80=A6) None of this needs to be in the canonical (published) XML, so this is = not an RFCXML question per se, but obviously it is if we use variants of = RFCXML as an authoring format or as an input format to idnits. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Sep 29 12:17:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5796F3A0A7E for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 12:17:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CTE_8BIT_MISMATCH=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hnYVwuIYVdoF for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 12:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 698793A0A7D for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 12:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id b10so4479415ioq.9 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 12:16:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y7wbFlwqFO0gchX+R816zfVmnFZFSG8V7kH1lEbtdJE=; b=HeoARX0FROZU3CVlIBb2hcKzNxZd72rt/zFMcVrxVoWZc8jv1osb+aA9oL7BdM+08y z2jx4DaN6mYdPbCeN260lZdPqMpNZnv0rduQ18AIj0WS6d0a76QVmjaBweqWPuDVBdJ/ Zqx7J+bRfcGxSwED/YjyL428xL3onY3GQuA1g= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y7wbFlwqFO0gchX+R816zfVmnFZFSG8V7kH1lEbtdJE=; b=jnSPwPb3zOQQtN0c7423M79kopV96B0mK8Fxsf6Mq+eDmQz1QN5hxxgSbCsHl+sFRN +fcQU3vW+l7/ix5YG3kj+kGZ+yvV6EilaMNUPwSCfOUQP69NZSnDiIAcVz2i/WTDcPcw fwtWN9ge+Pv5pOZiet+J+WwjbR3ryg/bgyWK/BogJNoSI5j9bksgGMrqSMaFKEV6UweI 9VN1NlgF47Lt2SwYGUkQv8KboaTg8UyF2Ktc67rXNKAjdpCG3lPoG+TEV5IdxsWEFdZu kr+FIk1ynArdehO/TVGfcHB3nQfaKHxUqI9D/2UmhUe/ETz3mRedOc5HYRV/KPUK5LaL xUeg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531zUvbSWiM4VSvGK9wlERcqT9F9oJzxBVjO2NgPltoBGP9+ekkm kCqYeDfFMxcP4rI9Df2NxRYIgA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwMQi2+ocNTgpp0LQdhjG24TmhSru7FPuZkNs1yNW9WlSL4s6Lc7CC/DKY1eE4CWk3n44Gnew== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:a2d:: with SMTP id 13mr1328919jao.12.1632943015986; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 12:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-73-78-113-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.78.113.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q6sm434458ilj.21.2021.09.29.12.16.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 12:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:16:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <29ac4aaf-3bb8-2206-5525-08e512ebcb58@nostrum.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <29ac4aaf-3bb8-2206-5525-08e512ebcb58@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] One RFC, two streams X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:17:05 -0000 Thanks, Robert, this is helpful. For context: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/ZZv07GgSdtcuaf8W3aSeOYxIgIQ/ To reduce complexity, I'd prefer that we publish the RFCED-Future document in the IAB stream only. Peter On 9/29/21 7:52 AM, Robert Sparks wrote: > There are surely things that would have to change in the rfc-editor > tooling that I don't know about, so this isn't comprehensive. > > The grammar in xml2rfc would have to change - the assumption that a > document belongs to 0 or 1 streams is deeply baked in. Decisions would > need to be made about how to render having more than one stream. > > The datatracker would have to change significantly - there are lots of > places where process is modeled (to help users through it) that would > have to learn about the possibility of multiple streams. Decisions would > need to be made about what happens with the intersection of process > requirements on the two streams and those would have to be reflected. > The one stream assumption is again quite deeply baked in and it would > take a thorough scrubbing to change it. > > It would be possible to adjust those two codebases but it would be a > medium large problem to work through. > > Do consider, though, that there are decades of accrual of _other_ things > (software at other SDOs, etc) out there that use our products that > assume one stream per document. > > RjS > > On 9/28/21 2:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'm not sure if this belongs here or on rfc-interest. >> >> I have noticed that the datatracker identifies RFC2850 as being in the >> IAB Stream, but it is a BCP, which to me says that it must be in the >> IETF Stream. It was indeed Last Called in the IETF and formally >> approved by the IESG, following the RFC2026 process. It was also >> approved by the IAB. It is logically, therefore, in both streams >> (although the streams had not been defined at the time of publication). >> >> Can an RFC be marked as belonging simultaneously to two streams? If >> not, why not? Which tooling would need to be changed? >> >> (This may seem like a corner case but it may not be unique for much >> longer.) >> Regards >>     Brian Carpenter >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc2850/ >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc2850 >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Wed Sep 29 13:06:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB74A3A0B62 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:06:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id omO1qym4sKkh for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E97753A0B5E for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id m21so3804376pgu.13 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:06:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MqalE4O16MBpIAOjEOB3iqWtIdvQNHAFNVoSz1XCWA0=; b=qUtULFJI7seMf3mRiw2jIEma53z2lUOtGaiMGBGoHxNwzz9R3nniVAkX6KxmkHVOLG +3CjT0M8vWB026RdUFFEi7KnDyA+scHW5gncA7XUjPH+1j3DLsSOybtRpcs5yYZWQzoQ JO5+mV3CxIJWPE56Y9AGaCm45tYUMWIhAzTthQL39KV6V7RU3Fle+n0lCTfupz7GCW/L RqYWEyfg6pPChgJAPCoQHIWIHw/Nuj3DhuvxZySldGwSGXrVdiP6c3kyg+C4KJb5K46y fLUe8NI3YbvQ1laZO3zT+jwY7+OiNV4r+796UH3QjHkIsPa3ibALaQL4IkYPWMTKk+/R 2uTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MqalE4O16MBpIAOjEOB3iqWtIdvQNHAFNVoSz1XCWA0=; b=Q35UegnHuIZzieB5Ltw4U1pXHKnemU1vcWf0HS1ZX8d5TVT6R/ro22yuAm33XsTetg BmTVW0w8BZHJXlwaCMOcKCDgT7M/YtOFKSaVw65jDb0DFK910LnMURD4sw0/UfuX5sBz 3y4HySHUB1uiXjzZxm3fdhf8KZ01Kq9/rMxl/yxll5Dn1zjhF33tNgC912Vd388VV2Pu 29Wm7qhtVrHOj65wQzah/Xq846RQwDnXeM4w3KpLnphX6xz2Bow57j2Lba4EGBm3XqJX 1tip5ZwFqr60APkupb5dwGNP3Ab/nfrYiLXBaIxxFEV+VUa2Da4/gkCxtrsWFCFhGgDR CXPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532rCJ+dCVvZsPeFif9TvmZCCbCLKSEz/HUzjtTesTr823XGLx2b 6wOihw+aes5178VAJaw/C7qZca2ivtOirw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxeQsvzCJoI3bkasMgXFwWhjyseNBkyMr34fLXlUAuTZKqsQ2mk+ZnbF5GjwjXIgvGqwzeZnw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:ce52:: with SMTP id r18mr1474023pgi.350.1632945998062; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p4sm465460pgc.15.2021.09.29.13.06.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:06:37 -0700 (PDT) To: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <9A729CD7-20EC-471D-ACB0-3AB9CD537A39@vpnc.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:06:32 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] One RFC, two streams X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:06:45 -0000 On 30-Sep-21 02:41, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > On 9/28/21 5:12 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> On 28 Sep 2021, at 12:54, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure if this belongs here or on rfc-interest. >>> >>> I have noticed that the datatracker identifies RFC2850 as being in=20 >>> the IAB Stream, but it is a BCP, which to me says that it must be in = >>> the IETF Stream. >> >> Yeeps. Good call. Not sure where this should be discussed, but it=20 >> definitely needs to be discussed. We have been pretty strong on "IAB=20 >> stream RFCs are not standards" and "BCPs are standards". >=20 > I think you'll find disagreement about BCPs being standards, and=20 > definitely about whether they are on the standards track. >=20 > _I_ think they're stronger than standards, but I've had lots of=20 > arguments with IESGs over the years about that - it occasionally comes = > up to argue about whether a reference to a BCP from a PS is a downref=20 > for instance. >=20 > IMHO,=C2=A0 "What is a BCP" question is a murky swamp. Agreed, but they are definitely IETF documents defined by the basic IETF process document, which is the relevance of my original question. (fwiw I see them exactly at the same level as the standards track for normative reference purposes.) Brian >=20 >> >> >> --Paul Hoffman >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:=20 >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe):=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 From nobody Wed Sep 29 13:08:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD57F3A0B3A for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:08:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aBc-6O5JFTEK for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AB813A0982 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id p1so2964887ilg.10 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:08:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PSRyeetJwgmvsTCI1t9YGfTOsaXGEeZVTvwelayh5Lg=; b=Vzj2HdQhMKnJhWCT3ZF+avUO0wD4ir/6ANylA21oli9K3YQU2AOq4ssxFiaKZkFpPV 6BlEdnn+O8NEdhnhcOiTG0nOvWVojArHnr1KEF44vZ4556bXeLpj9sVUZ9XVXnf428OG OzxpsTiRBRFxLvd6nAP3k+zWuE9talZmIuQfbxCKU9SGDAZIPvY7sD2qpTVVjzYI9SMX wb1XW33uwFcxY806v3DAQePaNsDnYWcoNIvl6KVoPEOBdEQ1pjovUAxIUKBarVQ+fMSA SafyYOHAtPjYQjgvbpb35slSxeZ9qvISDCwgNYsVBM/f7DAtYk0whJZryn3WtR57V26D Jc1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PSRyeetJwgmvsTCI1t9YGfTOsaXGEeZVTvwelayh5Lg=; b=F6nB4E1nzJ9NYVMYCuC2eO4SyPb13EjOQVSBgBwl5ChREEW8xldugBBF3ceL/dClit HDk3tvm2OMamAtoN01NJ6ffiFtZ23Qmk/xYiP9HtRoBQlNEFwqSQV3BbbJU2N2WEH4NJ KDb16niF43YjZwT6vcdvTwG5Lb9WPP0Mjv7OgYtyLdORMrIl88GezKvXXdoSdGHdOnsH a0lkBqLeTYLi6nccET+WRradZ5RuUmimmTMKDqC+0wjoNIJi3q4ueQlcKN/2JzjZ+wUX rncTbDMGNdOhOr/5y3+L2yeuFLQhC6vObZuRQbEhVbglUeIKrjsVUIv6wpN/jluQ+JTq 7gqw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5320j23kQlygYdDIN+NZnDOCbdFP1JC+32y7+qfBl1MQsGDoN+hH uu3ve4wGaj4GLBAhTmKK7tfe8VikzqcEKLB75zV0LnBINw4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzKuhgv1obeJTNqLGcgV4sALF9PXmFHY+wZukQflIOAu/Wbeb2bF/KfRY/05zasZyLyo2hgPXfdtepmwyRDHJ4= X-Received: by 2002:a92:b301:: with SMTP id p1mr1161075ilh.10.1632946129543; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:08:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9A729CD7-20EC-471D-ACB0-3AB9CD537A39@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:08:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fd3b9105cd27e513" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] One RFC, two streams X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:08:55 -0000 --000000000000fd3b9105cd27e513 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 1:06 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 30-Sep-21 02:41, Robert Sparks wrote: > > > > On 9/28/21 5:12 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >> On 28 Sep 2021, at 12:54, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> > >>> I'm not sure if this belongs here or on rfc-interest. > >>> > >>> I have noticed that the datatracker identifies RFC2850 as being in > >>> the IAB Stream, but it is a BCP, which to me says that it must be in > >>> the IETF Stream. > >> > >> Yeeps. Good call. Not sure where this should be discussed, but it > >> definitely needs to be discussed. We have been pretty strong on "IAB > >> stream RFCs are not standards" and "BCPs are standards". > > > > I think you'll find disagreement about BCPs being standards, and > > definitely about whether they are on the standards track. > > > > _I_ think they're stronger than standards, but I've had lots of > > arguments with IESGs over the years about that - it occasionally comes > > up to argue about whether a reference to a BCP from a PS is a downref > > for instance. > > > > IMHO, "What is a BCP" question is a murky swamp. > > Agreed, but they are definitely IETF documents defined by the basic > IETF process document, which is the relevance of my original question. > > (fwiw I see them exactly at the same level as the standards track for > normative reference purposes.) > This is my understanding as wel. -Ekr > Brian > > > > >> > >> > >> --Paul Hoffman > >> > >> ___________________________________________________________ > >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > >> datatracker-project@ietf.org > >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000fd3b9105cd27e513 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 1:06 PM Brian= E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 30-Sep-21 02:41, Robert Sparks wrote:
>
> On 9/28/21 5:12 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote:
>> On 28 Sep 2021, at 12:54, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not sure if this belongs here or on rfc-interest.
>>>
>>> I have noticed that the datatracker identifies RFC2850 as bein= g in
>>> the IAB Stream, but it is a BCP, which to me says that it must= be in
>>> the IETF Stream.
>>
>> Yeeps. Good call. Not sure where this should be discussed, but it =
>> definitely needs to be discussed. We have been pretty strong on &q= uot;IAB
>> stream RFCs are not standards" and "BCPs are standards&q= uot;.
>
> I think you'll find disagreement about BCPs being standards, and <= br> > definitely about whether they are on the standards track.
>
> _I_ think they're stronger than standards, but I've had lots o= f
> arguments with IESGs over the years about that - it occasionally comes=
> up to argue about whether a reference to a BCP from a PS is a downref =
> for instance.
>
> IMHO,=C2=A0 "What is a BCP" question is a murky swamp.

Agreed, but they are definitely IETF documents defined by the basic
IETF process document, which is the relevance=C2=A0 of my original question= .

(fwiw I see them exactly at the same level as the standards track for
normative reference purposes.)

This is = my understanding as wel.

-Ekr

=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

>
>>
>>
>> --Paul Hoffman
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug report= s.
>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:
>> = datatracker-project@ietf.org
>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe):
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/to= ols-discuss
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org<= br> > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000fd3b9105cd27e513-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 15:24:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64C03A08DC; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:24:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lGsYmRa-1Z8T; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6891B3A094F; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18TMNLB7002481 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:23:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1632954202; bh=Ek6FB1z729AAe6Wspq014CqCWuJ0Bv53w70WlfDHiNs=; h=To:Cc:From:Subject:Date; b=iujFNHk2q0a+CM1mcJGWlKkQJc5LU2RNDAmEyJEY7JtnUAGJdylAO+VsBocqhmkzz tFRq50aR0FhFVe/1rzE4iNT+VG48LYlBFKTrAoDOnkMrz3gau4hqeaNVeGJauCHZ8j puLmAU3YTYbA1L8gpPOfAXe57JSCjDBkeuwSPMns= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss Cc: IETF Codesprints From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <0d8472cb-179a-fb4c-ff7a-d6ec418b50d4@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:23:16 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Performance oriented codesprint before IETF 112 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:24:21 -0000 We would like to hold a codesprint before IETF 112 focused on=20 datatracker performance. We have been improving the instrumentation of the datatracker, and plan=20 to provide quite a bit of information that will help us focus on places=20 that will help us most. These include statistic from the database engine = itself, and instrumentation that measures which views are getting the=20 most use, suffering the worst cumulative performance, and how those=20 views use the database. I expect much of the work will be verifying that the database has the=20 right indices, adjusting views to make better use of the ORM (such as=20 prefetching data (and not to prefetch too _much_ data), and adjusting=20 models where the current models are proving to be problematic. I have a doodle for two different possible times on either Oct 27 or Oct = 28. If you would like to participate, please add yourself to the doodle. If=20 the proposed times can't be made to work for you and you would really=20 like to engage in this kind of sprint, please just add a comment at the=20 doodle page. RjS From nobody Wed Sep 29 15:43:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F2D03A08E7; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:42:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q_7521RvxM1d; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36D413A08EC; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18TMgliF006287 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:42:48 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1632955368; bh=SRLAlXpPls9I3QING4oonDx1D8ZiUhY3yKkBNqGkV24=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=QtJlg3sWLc7tQ8uYez53xgQmWxaclLpotEz6JYEK+1sMyNZt01D4aVEHP2I0xDhFd WLicIt/o0/IqWC5YbEcBXdYCdHlWSYycHIDsPGmb5ZYOtk28Ju3HUwwQxRx2JRV3g5 3hkyyW/yd9ixzkkJ/j69kuPiUb0iyX3zytqeiOIw= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain From: Robert Sparks To: tools-discuss Cc: IETF Codesprints References: <0d8472cb-179a-fb4c-ff7a-d6ec418b50d4@nostrum.com> Message-ID: <727700ef-5756-754e-b2e1-61318f7e5275@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:42:42 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0d8472cb-179a-fb4c-ff7a-d6ec418b50d4@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [codesprints] Performance oriented codesprint before IETF 112 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:42:59 -0000 This time with the link: https://doodle.com/poll/cavrqib4nwdmvuk2 On 9/29/21 5:23 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > We would like to hold a codesprint before IETF 112 focused on > datatracker performance. > > We have been improving the instrumentation of the datatracker, and > plan to provide quite a bit of information that will help us focus on > places that will help us most. These include statistic from the > database engine itself, and instrumentation that measures which views > are getting the most use, suffering the worst cumulative performance, > and how those views use the database. > > I expect much of the work will be verifying that the database has the > right indices, adjusting views to make better use of the ORM (such as > prefetching data (and not to prefetch too _much_ data), and adjusting > models where the current models are proving to be problematic. > > I have a doodle for two different possible times on either Oct 27 or > Oct 28. > > If you would like to participate, please add yourself to the doodle. > If the proposed times can't be made to work for you and you would > really like to engage in this kind of sprint, please just add a > comment at the doodle page. > > RjS > > > > > _______________________________________________ > codesprints mailing list > codesprints@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codesprints From nobody Thu Sep 30 04:42:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573773A0AE4 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 04:42:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KUaJlR53NIWR for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 04:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58D5B3A0AE8 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 04:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HKrvS5Qfrz2xgd; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:42:28 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:42:28 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 654694948.124014-d755b53b6ff770822e1f801a8a5dab13 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <162203242344.29582.10148358869813812866@ietfa.amsl.com> <5056A810-C337-4F59-ADEA-01AFCCBBDBE3@vigilsec.com> To: Tools Team Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] bibxml8 and http:// (Fwd: Lars Eggert's No Objection on draft-ietf-core-senml-versions-03: (with COMMENT)) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:42:38 -0000 Bump. This is now coming up again and again in IESG reviews. I know that the full solution is imminent=E2=80=A6 But maybe someone can have some mercy until then. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 2021-05-26, at 17:34, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2021-05-26, at 17:14, Russ Housley wrote: >>=20 >> There is an RFP out for updated to bibxml. Hopefully this is easily = addressed under that effort. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m looking forward to this. >=20 > In the meantime, maybe someone could place that =E2=80=9Cs=E2=80=9D = before the colon in line 220 of bibxml8/index.cgi=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >>=20 >> Russ >>=20 >>> On May 26, 2021, at 9:54 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>=20 >>> In a recent IESG ballot, Lars Eggert noted that bibxlm8 is still = using http:// URLs for the reference target: >>>=20 >>> return ("\n".join([f">> f" = target=3D'http://www.iana.org/assignments/{self.reference_number}'>", >>> (Line 219, 220 of bibxml8/index.cgi). >>>=20 >>> I agree with him that this should now be https:// >>>=20 >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>>=20 >>>> From: Lars Eggert via Datatracker >>>> Subject: Lars Eggert's No Objection on = draft-ietf-core-senml-versions-03: (with COMMENT) >>>> Date: 2021-05-26 at 14:33:43 CEST >>>> To: "The IESG" >>>> Cc: draft-ietf-core-senml-versions@ietf.org, core-chairs@ietf.org, = core@ietf.org, jaime@iki.fi, jaime@iki.fi >>>> Resent-From: >>>> Resent-To: cabo@tzi.org, jaime@iki.fi, marco.tiloca@ri.se >>>> Reply-To: Lars Eggert >>>> Message-Id: = <162203242344.29582.10148358869813812866@ietfa.amsl.com> >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> These URLs in the document can probably be converted to HTTPS: >>>> * http://www.iana.org/assignments/senml >>>=20 >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>=20 >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 From nobody Thu Sep 30 10:29:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CAEE3A0E49 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:29:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qLblnH0RBlko for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22f.google.com (mail-oi1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91FCA3A0F39 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id v10so8198186oic.12 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:28:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=ntZG8cMFvlS6GQJ1+9d8SPPLdCB/mBU/D9x1LPWD0c8=; b=BlcgUc3O/cRbsSqVx6yGeZavgCX4nWryoKPOj6tDuA51US3ETuuPBb/oUM/1DCduzk I7dqKmnOzFVZsGqjrolAAxXuXJK9D+mFbCTCRt5d7uCN/Q2Tpxy6iRH31zYFSG1YAa50 OTlpXSaJieQfjevIlMHdgfVHhItkRxwwa8OSqkHf6Cxyh2LtM6EXae9666Rz5XK4Xebl MzPXCOIi6xb5mDPiXbKoPOZ/6mx6d4ztNXAqN3UPuemzPCbgvxsOTmQChIFr+i5ZkLbh 6Twkbc3EZmZtDDRKfLuMwdlUnNm2RWKUN42fPxTc1MYvtAX6UWc3rHhOAcFXz0zlyUWo n+Kg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=ntZG8cMFvlS6GQJ1+9d8SPPLdCB/mBU/D9x1LPWD0c8=; b=St0hrkBuplpk9x9mPV/AvXMiDBvS9m/NMo8hvPA+dtFTgMA3Lpsw9y368NmM/cNcdj r+KgvfGoSu1j8B20d2et8fF4aLPxzt38whE8dKDOsbXZC+Yi3yUuEO3LpAZAW85BUm1G +6GI8rdM7VqZcVOZlVuiJKDfJjDkBBC1poMWIyu8ATNVcqS2dJmTcjNFHf7kBxhtuh7M jngzbsU2H79Q4FgJDyxcVeTqRp7rKqHU/PYXPDH+gDqbzxhQFGg7vetImSVYOxIzmcq7 Y7h9m3r2KXNyxH+hCkhX6ltcjFyBbx9zKATJGQk9b+wI5+IzoD6cxF7tgMTUI3BrcZ88 j5Ww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5313xhNIRD7KiCUsfYcDPWl/MR896EVBX1OTjA2Qj8Jjq3HClH3p JNddhKswetCYxyOxWIpYddw5qyEn808= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxTcgL5lq8g01IdgRWNOv4sdRe1l+PyAZdqCJCRS/7FjUxalodA9ZzzzndW1oO/QDBib491wA== X-Received: by 2002:aca:220a:: with SMTP id b10mr328878oic.143.1633022928673; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:659:95b8:2b79:a656:cfb1? ([2601:647:5a00:659:95b8:2b79:a656:cfb1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k15sm665705otp.68.2021.09.30.10.28.47 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:28:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_30D10331-98F6-4A6D-9017-AFF2F65CF2B5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Message-Id: <387D4DB5-E106-49AC-8561-9AED48082173@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:28:46 -0700 Cc: Bob Hinden , tools-discuss To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Github and IPv6 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 17:29:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_30D10331-98F6-4A6D-9017-AFF2F65CF2B5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Robert, I recently learned there is now some IPv6 github support for pages = hosted on *.github.io and custom domains, see: = https://github.blog/changelog/2021-09-30-enabling-ipv6-support-for-github-= pages/ = https://docs.github.com/en/pages/configuring-a-custom-domain-for-your-gith= ub-pages-site/managing-a-custom-domain-for-your-github-pages-site Bob --Apple-Mail=_30D10331-98F6-4A6D-9017-AFF2F65CF2B5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmFV884ACgkQrut0EXfn u6gcSggAirjjb5CWHTE0jJaiK4FjA2CsW4/aMnsZkpR/YtdNKdQNF19/H69GP1jC nzYxjk9OUGGBqy4WA+oUcHwifKACTuLSsYOJ5nL2fU7JtsJVvCGHF7fJR+ZFF+oN UspLW4p6aaQjNjxJQWsciuxnkSYl4Jy41oizBQaCxXys4pTQ+eJB0RSgWL3j+L/x AlRYiW02wBR1Lms3y5FIklCTaSgK+et8BSRWjbBxFUGIIBiuSXCWvcY8qVcrVG82 8BGlVg7YlYPcfdKg+lJ0CjBnnIwxwSDYYxgFin4ZNbgRjdG9FXnj/AFe26ucIsES 5h+0H76xdJQEv+8c00PorKsPHP+gZQ== =alFP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_30D10331-98F6-4A6D-9017-AFF2F65CF2B5-- From nobody Thu Sep 30 16:00:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 627953A1713 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 16:00:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cvFQMqznZaZZ for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F6F63A1711 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com with SMTP id f18so9328403vsp.2 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:59:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=KOYivn/UwjKnvIvfDR6zGbPuJKxzcXHJTsL8XY5YtPw=; b=GKhJ6rDQGCm9mPzCO7IGdiQLbFftU8igz0EZHoeoV1uegMWnNyTMNE1yRCvKI5AG+x uZ3xcEchncTkpi/TDlXLt9GqeuUFQC8NGd7E6bHVTsfm47kucz8XT/O+x7p+HnoNBAjE xI8pdYossCDBlVN+GowLxBWBX8KYx5fA61OzMbbKIaAvK7xNyFzUduxGTvJdh9tvhZ29 t5vm3SzPgFKDvkYoffk2vAUeYf5e7kiJVZs70ksymL7Y2b4SYEp+LBm4gaMOccOpzyVN MZsgFfkxsHBWdNvpXwd7cG8VC/nt5qP1i9jBkOOXVAtMzOdKhjxaYEiNQ5wjXiGm74ZW 9SPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=KOYivn/UwjKnvIvfDR6zGbPuJKxzcXHJTsL8XY5YtPw=; b=IC8fFDL5YaY4CMtUXv6MWLDC4LQKcHzg3+bFMTgQtN/RGroWxJuTtxsz5le9bhKhvB DfLQfHZ5tiBFVK/XTOuWUZRpt3cBqzDXM7DTIuYrKaq32Y6aztvN46XwTgohwXMWSveh K88R2AVckWn84BgVInbFpd8iGwGgOWkK2SYmgPQs4d/noI7WhoRT2x+LpI129AVBmg3S 3+2TvwVBdnmj+w9HzpkBoHGBtWUHSlsP5vpm7TjtguJb0VReFJwCQu0p5MAP278V+9x+ HNNxuyzqKGx0IdnhFYDYnwnxbZhDJxywL4gsS9HogbDZ+Cc1SZsEUkSMxaCbj3KkiBKG tRrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532TO/nhv/i2OqmklSk5RehvkEC0rzjuw5v2ry557wiQ/MxuB6G/ QYHJcIIeSnV6DjG2w9jWg1wmXUmXRkc42GgIYVsktlObOXg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwFobqFpmZ/WJ163f/umoLfXfWX8IRSi6dF6OzfyIPgc1fpxzBAx384FshcSlvjphTvJNcBUcr7/Hk8znjUwDQ= X-Received: by 2002:a67:1004:: with SMTP id 4mr2104277vsq.26.1633042795541; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:59:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 17:59:29 -0500 Message-ID: To: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bb479905cd3e67a8" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] "Distantly related Internet-Drafts"? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 23:00:02 -0000 --000000000000bb479905cd3e67a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" So, just for completeness, I should also ask this question about my oddly filenamed Internet-Draft. If you look at the QUIC working group's document page ( https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/quic/documents/), and scan down to Related Internet-Drafts (24 hits) you'll see these three drafts. draft-dawkins-quic-multipath-selection-01 Path Selection for Multiple Paths In QUIC 2021-06-02 13 pages I-D Exists draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic-00 SDP Offer/Answer for RTP using QUIC as Transport 2021-09-08 11 pages I-D Exists draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic-questions-00 SDP Offer/Answer for RTP using QUIC as Transport - Design Questions 2021-09-29 12 pages New I-D Exists The first document filename starts with "draft-dawkins-*quic*". I expect this one to be listed as a related Internet-Draft. The filename is "draft-author-wgname-*", as suggested for Internet-Drafts in https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/#7, and it is related to the QUIC working group. The second and third document filenames start with "draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp- *quic*". I wasn't expecting to see these listed as related to the QUIC working group. These drafts are intended for discussion on the MOQ ("Media Over QUIC'') non-WG mailing list, and (if I understand the guidance I've gotten from the TSV and ART ADs correctly) are actually out of scope for the QUIC working group. Is it possible that the datatracker is scanning the filename looking for *any *occurrence of a working group name, not just in the third position? >From the "Spencer is not the center of the universe" department, is it reasonable to list individual drafts as "related", if the filename includes the working group name in any position? If so, maybe that just needs to be documented someplace (it doesn't look like https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines has been updated since Russ Housley was IETF Chair), and I should be aware of that when choosing filenames. I thought the matching logic had been tightened up several years ago, when we had an author whose name had a working group short name as a substring, so anything that person submitted was listed as a Related Internet-Draft for the working group. But maybe that was just making sure that the working group short name had dashes on both sides? Best, Spencer --000000000000bb479905cd3e67a8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So, just for completeness, I should also ask this question= about my oddly filenamed Internet-Draft.=C2=A0

If you l= ook at the QUIC working group's document page (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/quic/do= cuments/), and scan down to=C2=A0


Related Internet-Drafts (24 hits)=
you'll see these three drafts.=C2= =A0

=
draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic-00
SDP Offer/Answer for RT= P using QUIC as Transport


<= span class=3D"gmail-fa gmail-fa-comments-o" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;= display:inline-block;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:no= rmal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:1;font-family:FontAwesome;font-size:in= herit">
draft-dawkins-quic-multipath-selection-01
Path Selection for Multiple Paths In QUIC
2021-06-02
13 pages
I-D Exists

2021-09-08
11 pages
I-D Exists


draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic-questions-00
SDP Off= er/Answer for RTP using QUIC as Transport - Design Questions
2021-09-29
12 = pages
New
I-D Exists
The first docum= ent filename starts with=C2=A0"draft-dawkins-quic". I expe= ct this one to be listed as a related Internet-Draft. The filename is "= ;draft-author-wgname-*", as suggested for Internet-Drafts in=C2=A0https://www.ietf.o= rg/standards/ids/guidelines/#7, and it is related to the QUIC working g= roup.=C2=A0

The second and third document filenames start with "d= raft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic". I wasn't expecting to see these= listed as related to the QUIC working group. These drafts are intended for= discussion on the MOQ ("Media Over QUIC'') non-WG mailing lis= t, and (if I understand the guidance I've gotten from the TSV and ART A= Ds correctly) are actually out of scope for the QUIC working group.=C2=A0

Is it possible that the datatracker is scanning the= filename looking for any occurrence of a working group name, not ju= st in the third position?

From the "Spencer i= s not the center of the universe" department, is it reasonable to list= individual drafts as "related", if the filename includes the wor= king group name in any position? If=C2=A0so, maybe that just needs to be do= cumented someplace (it doesn't look like=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guideli= nes has been updated since Russ Housley was IETF Chair), and I should b= e aware of that when choosing filenames.=C2=A0

I thought the matching logic had been tightened up several years ago, when= we had an author whose name had a working group short name as a substring,= so anything that person submitted was listed as a Related Internet-Draft f= or the working group. But maybe that was just making sure that the working = group short name had dashes on both sides?

Best,

Spencer
--000000000000bb479905cd3e67a8-- From nobody Thu Sep 30 23:25:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4E13A0820; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 23:25:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DmrjtqYYAC4E; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 23:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DDBA3A005E; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 23:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:5bc:2f83:3bfd:bc33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 20C21600354; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 09:24:51 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1633069491; bh=LRh049QKuuwL5vgauElccBqIKegko65sBfDLKfr00Bw=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=g5XCVADY4uomG+ZkRzFIWLTiAkgsQYvmqPKkiOSpVsN7qTjh9Qsn3QglomqkvIHuk wvn2aHQsYstFSv2ZrMX7GrCsuRe+9zpsuOxQGXQsbNVC+08hSaO//Aw9NMwAaOYE4X tzM/RhE/ttgxT2fZ97F4Us4tDQwMluSBJPuUFcSY= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B4CE656A-80C2-46A4-9E5C-107B62A97B31"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 09:24:50 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF References: X-MailScanner-ID: 20C21600354.A60A9 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Distantly related Internet-Drafts"? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 06:25:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B4CE656A-80C2-46A4-9E5C-107B62A97B31 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-10-1, at 1:59, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: > The first document filename starts with "draft-dawkins-quic". I expect = this one to be listed as a related Internet-Draft. The filename is = "draft-author-wgname-*", as suggested for Internet-Drafts in = https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/#7, and it is related to = the QUIC working group. >=20 > The second and third document filenames start with = "draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic". I wasn't expecting to see these listed as = related to the QUIC working group. These drafts are intended for = discussion on the MOQ ("Media Over QUIC'') non-WG mailing list, and (if = I understand the guidance I've gotten from the TSV and ART ADs = correctly) are actually out of scope for the QUIC working group. >=20 > Is it possible that the datatracker is scanning the filename looking = for any occurrence of a working group name, not just in the third = position? IIRC, when I was a QUIC co-chair, I manually tweaked the pattern for the = QUIC WG in the datatracker settings, because people were submitting = QUIC-related I-Ds that were not showing up on our datatracker page and = we hence didn't learn about until (sometimes much) later. Since I'm not a co-chair anymore, I don't have access to the "manage = document list" button anymore, so I can't verify this. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_B4CE656A-80C2-46A4-9E5C-107B62A97B31 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFWqbIACgkQVLXDCb9w wVekJxAAsAEvvTePLSHcMwHQNC5f6Bbcx4LE+lh3UigP/45/vJPzFWgdq5W60M6f zDMZVLvyD+YUK/R3N93S4oOUejjPti2yIBBJKv3Xa51o11nj0hvBzGe1F+YvIaBb jALWYB3EvBtBke7wZPi5FqTpWOhIQyikn8vupkW0qe2tkOxEcjSrU+Unl7h2m2v7 hlh3pA6O0MNLSVCoyTUCady+ts/2sxJ/3nxU9nJHUk8KSaChqcCKjjqvxm91VSqL W/RK/oQxGhYqbmQglLl3QcvXVLhoAafrMpw42YN3fhbIvcHU4D5dNOQDvx81Ik+5 YozGCbwjh/Vm/64OJWkrdVdXrIRsAy+yIpu0JE/lsUVopNPpkYmYuoycMvKex+3t JCOqIFjkq4nUz0bX6pSGEETMHF0XtKK26W+M8/LUG/V4VvQjkScodIDkmVtqNhzy IW9qKnJtsaekK3zM3x8qa9tPGD4fYUkW7MXl2u8q/cYuzIETzP976fsOaCje5+yl HkR/1+1vMFZ0zyNPGGRq9fKZhJRFwcNjaWWLGV4MxCkV/f2QsaC8fTE4E/E3cX5A YLHw1oZN8oyMIUrKTZFGmeCOftSqiSGzsQZkAIAnVAAswq4EZcuLG4kejTijkeMU mTnsV/5SaAGUm8vGOnUsF+DGkUHC74lhZH/ZXc8f0G0v53oPFX8= =EsGx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B4CE656A-80C2-46A4-9E5C-107B62A97B31--

Balazs - Please try using https://www.ietf.org/tools/idnits instead.