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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 17:57:52 -0500
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Cc: Eve Maler <eve@xmlgrrl.com>, "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, txauth@ietf.org, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Proposed Charter
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> On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:40 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:01 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> 2. Why do you restrict this to HTTP?
>>>=20
>>> Because I want us to use all of the features and benefits of HTTP =
instead of having to invent within-protocol functions to replicate them. =
I don=E2=80=99t want SOAP, which pretends to be transport agnostic much =
to its detriment. If someone wants to do OAuth 3 on not-HTTP, they can =
define what that looks like. This is what happened with the COAP/CORE =
stuff and OAuth 2.
>>>=20
>>> I agree SOAP was complicated. Which features and benefits of HTTP =
are you wanting to use?=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> Well so far we=E2=80=99ve got headers, URLs, methods, data payload =
types, and the whole array of technologies that we can rely on working =
together along with HTTP.
>>=20
>> But which ones do you want to use?
>> =20
>=20
> Those things that I already listed are what I want to use. I want to =
use the headers for sending key proofs and probably content negotiation. =
I want to have content negotiation so that we can have an option to use =
JOSE (or COSE) as the body format instead of JSON, but that function =
switch should come from the transport protocol (HTTP) and not something =
internal to our protocol. I want to be able to use redirects to get the =
user to interact, and get back from the interaction. I want to =
(eventually) do things like token revocation using a DELETE verb instead =
of a separate endpoint. I want to use HTTP Message Signatures (once they =
exist) as a key presentation mechanism. And I want our security =
considerations to be able to take into account the particulars of HTTP, =
TLS, and the like when we write them.
>=20
> Thanks for clarifying. I agree that using the http content-type =
header, and http verbs is preferable to inventing new mechanisms.

Thanks, and those are just some examples. I want us to have all of =
HTTP=E2=80=99s features as options that we can use without reinventing =
them, even things I can=E2=80=99t think of right now.

> =20
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> If it was simple to support COAP, why would we not do that?
>>=20
>> Because it=E2=80=99s not just COAP =E2=80=94 you=E2=80=99ve got a =
different set of assumptions for the lower layer protocols, and you=E2=80=99=
ve got lots of considerations about how the different components can =
talk to each other in the embedded space.=20
>>=20
>> You are suggesting we rule out it working with COAP in the charter, =
before we have even had a chance to work on it.
>>=20
>> Perhaps it will be trivial to support COAP. We won't know if the =
charter forbids it.
>=20
> If it turns out to be trivial and people want to include it and do the =
work here, then we could always update the charter to include it. I =
would rather see that than us trying to enumerate all of the target =
carrier mechanisms. Because if we do COAP, why not MQTT? Or BluetoothLE?=20=

>=20
> If we include COAP, then to my mind that necessitates one of two =
things, if not both:
>=20
> 1) We have a document that says =E2=80=9CIF you=E2=80=99re doing HTTP =
do (A) if you=E2=80=99re doing COAP do (B)=E2=80=9D
> 2) We have an =E2=80=9Cabstract=E2=80=9D document that says =
=E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=99s this thing but for details on how to do it go =
read the HTTP document and/or the COAP document=E2=80=9D, but when you =
read the HTTP or COAP documents, they don=E2=80=99t have any information =
about what the thing is because it=E2=80=99s in the abstract.=20
>=20
> =46rom a developer=E2=80=99s perspective, I would rather have an HTTP =
document be self-contained, and a COAP document be self-contained. And =
if the two describe the same process, or one inherits from the other but =
says =E2=80=9Cinstead of doing HTTP thing X do COAP equivalent Y=E2=80=9D,=
 then that=E2=80=99s good.=20
>=20
> I agree completely.
> =20
>=20
> But overly abstracting a system is both tempting and potentially =
disastrous.=20
>=20
> I agree.=20
>=20
> I align with the design tenet:
>=20
> "Easy things should be easy, hard things should be possible" -- Larry =
Wall
>=20
> If the WG has a choice between A and B, and they all other things are =
equal for an HTTP implementation, but B is much better for COAP, then I =
would suggest we choose B.
>=20
> I'm not saying COAP support should be a priority, I'm saying we should =
not completely ignore it.=20

I am in full agreement with these principles, since it would make =
alignment for any present or future COAP version of this protocol to be =
built. I think we can manage that while still focusing on an HTTP-bound =
process, without getting into the over-abstraction problem.

> =20
>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> In my experience, it=E2=80=99s much more successful to have a =
protocol strongly integrated with its transport mechanism and then =
translated out to other mechanisms, instead of trying to come up with =
one universal interlingua of a protocol that just get shunted along.
>>=20
>> Would you provide an example besides SOAP for this?
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s the most egregious example that comes to mind for me, so =
that=E2=80=99s why I keep coming back to it. I also have in mind a dozen =
projects that never went anywhere, and nobody=E2=80=99s heard of, =
because of an outmoded effort being put into defining abstractions ahead =
of time in order to allow transport-agnostic messaging.=20
>=20
> A similar level of overly-eager abstraction went into JOSE, with the =
JWA document. It makes it so that JWS, JWE, and JWK make no sense =
without JWA, and JWA is just a collection of content that really should =
have been included inline with the other documents.=20
>=20
> I want to avoid that kind of thing.
>=20
> Agreed
> =20
>=20
>> =20
>> This is why SOAP can=E2=80=99t use HTTP verbs to communicate things, =
and why the only signatures it can use are internal. When you do that =
kind of system, you almost always end up having people just use it with =
one transport anyway, like SOAP over HTTP.
>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> 3. Why is authentication not in scope?
>>>=20
>>> It felt, to me, like that might be a bridge too far.
>>>=20
>>> I disagree. But I also think that authentication is the wrong term. =
Identity* may be a term that maps better, as the Client is wanting to =
get "identity" data from the AS.=20
>>>=20
>>> * The identity term is super confusing, but authentication implies =
just knowing it is the same user, where OpenID Connect also provides =
claims about the user.
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m coming around to this view, but I would still like it to =
be separate.
>>=20
>> What does separate mean?
>=20
> It means that the bits that say =E2=80=9Cthis is how you talk about =
identity information in the response=E2=80=9D are controlled by a =
separate spec that not everyone needs to understand. I think there are =
too many use cases of wanting to get API access and NOT user information =
for it to be a core piece.=20
>=20
> Some developers only care about identity. Some only care about API =
access. It should be easy for both.

Perhaps, but that gets us into an important question of what the result =
of the transaction should be. In my view, it=E2=80=99s delegation for =
access to something =E2=80=94 some bit of information. In the OIDC =
model, that includes information about who the current user is. OAuth 2 =
always returns an access token, no matter what you do. Is this still the =
right model? Right now in XYZ that=E2=80=99s how it works, but in the =
pure-identity case and in Annabelle=E2=80=99s extended use case, that =
isn=E2=80=99t true.=20

The hard question there, to me, is how do we switch that kind of =
behavior. I=E2=80=99m not fond of something like =
=E2=80=9Creturn_type=3Didentity=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Creturn_type=3Daccess_token=E2=80=9D, since these tend to be =
both limiting and overbuilt at the same time. But I=E2=80=99ve struggled =
with how to manage this, and if we=E2=80=99re going to include identity =
and other use cases in the charter explicitly, then it=E2=80=99s =
something we=E2=80=99ll need to have a good solution for.=20

> =20
>=20
> However, this is arguably getting into the details of how to slice up =
different documents, which is really a decision to be made once the WG =
is running and not during the charter.=20
>=20
> Currently, identity is not in scope of the charter, which is why I am =
bringing it up.

I=E2=80=99m currently thinking something like this for the charter text =
to set the right scope:

	resulting in information about the request (such as a user=E2=80=99=
s identity or current status) and/or an artifact that will allow the =
client to undertake the delegated action.

In other words, our focus is on the delegation protocol, not what it=E2=80=
=99s delegating to. But the ability to include information in that =
protocol directly is a potentially powerful pattern and we should =
probably include some of that in our scope. I think the identity portion =
can be fairly minimal, at least as a starting point.

> =20
>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>> =20
>>> If we do decide it=E2=80=99s in scope, then I think it should be =
clearly layered on top of the authorization layer.=20
>>>=20
>>> Being layered on top is confusing. An OpenID Connect flow where the =
Client receives an ID token, has not authorization, unless you are =
counting the UX as authorization -- but that does not seem like a layer. =
Would you elaborate?
>>> =20
>>=20
>> What you=E2=80=99re doing in OIDC is authorizing the application to =
know who you are =E2=80=94 to get your identity information. That key =
insight is what makes the combination of OAuth and OIDC work as well as =
it does. And, importantly, once you authorize identity access, you can =
authorize other stuff as well.
>>=20
>>=20
>> As I stated, there is the UX of authorizing knowing who the user is, =
but there is no artifact representing that authorization as there is in =
OAuth -- ie there is no access token to access a resource. (yes, an =
access token may be used to read the user info endpoint, but that is all =
it can do.=20
>> =20
>> And it=E2=80=99s the =E2=80=9Cand other stuff=E2=80=9D that people =
really, really, really like about OIDC. Nobody ever wants just =
authorization, in practice.=20
>>=20
>> Did you mean to say "authentication"?
>>=20
>> If so, then I would posit that there are more OIDC user interactions =
than plain OAuth 2.0 user interactions, and that almost all of those =
OIDC user interactions are just logging in with Google or Facebook -- =
and that there is no "and other stuff".
>>=20
>=20
> Yes, I meant authentication, thank you.=20
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s true, but I=E2=80=99ll agree that =
it=E2=80=99s more public-facing. But even if what you posit is actually =
true by raw numbers, it=E2=80=99s not universal. In particular, there =
are a large number of system-to-system cases that OAuth 2 covers, which =
have nothing to do with identity, that we don=E2=80=99t want to throw =
out.
>=20
> I'm not suggesting that those use cases should be thrown out, nor =
second class.

Good, because it=E2=80=99s important that we do think of this as more =
than just a pure authentication system.=20

> =20
>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> 4. When you say "not backwards compatible with OAuth 2.0 and its =
extensions", do you expect to define a new standard to replace RFC 6750? =
Developers will have to have a new method to call APIs?
>>>=20
>>> Kinda. First, it=E2=80=99s more 6749 that I want to step away from. =
But even then, I think keeping just the header version of 6750 is OK =
enough if someone wants to keep using that. The thing is, won=E2=80=99t =
someone seeing an OAuth 2 header assume the rest of OAuth 2 =
infrastructure? In some cases this won=E2=80=99t matter, but in many =
that could be really confusing.=20
>>>=20
>>> One of the problems, though, is that 6750 has already been clouded =
by things like the MTLS binding, where they use =E2=80=9Cbearer=E2=80=9D =
tokens that have to be bound to the client=E2=80=99s certificate. So =E2=80=
=A6 not much of a bearer token anymore.
>>>=20
>>> So, are you are you proposing that Tx have a new mechanism for API =
calls?
>>=20
>> Yes, I think there will be new mechanisms for different kinds of =
key-bound tokens.
>>=20
>> So are you proposing that OAuth 3.0 will not support bearer tokens?
>=20
> That is not correct and I=E2=80=99m not sure where you got that. =
Bearer tokens are still useful. But they should look and behave as =
distinct from sender-constrained tokens. But ultimately we can tell the =
client how the token gets used, as below.
>=20
> It was not clear from your response, as a new mechanism could mean =
that the old one is not used anymore.
>=20
> To clarify, you expect there will be additional mechanisms.

Correct. I would expect us to either redefine or re-use bearer tokens a =
la 6750 in some capacity but also have other presentation mechanism, =
like using HTTP Signatures (once Annabelle and my draft is real) and =
MTLS binding (like the OAuth MTLS binding).=20

Thanks again for the great discussion! It=E2=80=99s important to get =
these details out where they=E2=80=99re readable.

 =E2=80=94 Justin=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:40 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at =
11:01 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2. Why =
do you restrict this to HTTP?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Because I want us to use =
all of the features and benefits of HTTP instead of having to invent =
within-protocol functions to replicate them. I don=E2=80=99t want SOAP, =
which pretends to be transport agnostic much to its detriment. If =
someone wants to do OAuth 3 on not-HTTP, they can define what that looks =
like. This is what happened with the COAP/CORE stuff and OAuth =
2.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">I agree SOAP was complicated. Which features and benefits of =
HTTP are you wanting to use?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Well so far we=E2=80=99ve got headers, =
URLs, methods, data payload types, and the whole array of technologies =
that we can rely on working together along with =
HTTP.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But which ones do you want to =
use?</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Those things that I =
already listed are what I want to use. I want to use the headers for =
sending key proofs and probably content negotiation. I want to have =
content negotiation so that we can have an option to use JOSE (or COSE) =
as the body format instead of JSON, but that function switch should come =
from the transport protocol (HTTP) and not something internal to our =
protocol. I want to be able to use redirects to get the user to =
interact, and get back from the interaction. I want to (eventually) do =
things like token revocation using a DELETE verb instead of a separate =
endpoint. I want to use HTTP Message Signatures (once they exist) as a =
key presentation mechanism. And I want our security considerations to be =
able to take into account the particulars of HTTP, TLS, and the like =
when we write them.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks for clarifying. I agree that =
using the http content-type header, and http verbs is preferable to =
inventing new mechanisms.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thanks, and those are just some examples. I want =
us to have all of HTTP=E2=80=99s features as options that we can use =
without reinventing them, even things I can=E2=80=99t think of right =
now.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">If it =
was simple to support COAP, why would we not do =
that?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Because it=E2=80=99s not just COAP =E2=80=
=94 you=E2=80=99ve got a different set of assumptions for the lower =
layer protocols, and you=E2=80=99ve got lots of considerations about how =
the different components can talk to each other in the embedded =
space.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You are suggesting we rule out it =
working with COAP in the charter, before we have even had a chance to =
work on it.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Perhaps it will be trivial to support COAP. We won't know if =
the charter forbids it.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If it turns out to be trivial and =
people want to include it and do the work here, then we could always =
update the charter to include it. I would rather see that than us trying =
to enumerate all of the target carrier mechanisms. Because if we do =
COAP, why not MQTT? Or BluetoothLE?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we include COAP, then to my mind =
that necessitates one of two things, if not both:</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1) We have a document that says =E2=80=9C=
IF you=E2=80=99re doing HTTP do (A) if you=E2=80=99re doing COAP do =
(B)=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D"">2) We have an =E2=80=9Cabstract=E2=80=9D=
 document that says =E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=99s this thing but for details =
on how to do it go read the HTTP document and/or the COAP document=E2=80=9D=
, but when you read the HTTP or COAP documents, they don=E2=80=99t have =
any information about what the thing is because it=E2=80=99s in the =
abstract.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">=46rom a developer=E2=80=99s perspective, I would rather have =
an HTTP document be self-contained, and a COAP document be =
self-contained. And if the two describe the same process, or one =
inherits from the other but says =E2=80=9Cinstead of doing HTTP thing X =
do COAP equivalent Y=E2=80=9D, then that=E2=80=99s =
good.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I agree completely.</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But overly abstracting a =
system is both tempting and potentially =
disastrous.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I agree.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I align with the design =
tenet:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">"Easy =
things should be easy, hard things should be possible" -- Larry =
Wall</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If the WG =
has a choice between A and B, and they all other things are equal for an =
HTTP implementation, but B is much better for COAP, then I would suggest =
we choose B.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'm=
 not saying COAP support should be a priority, I'm saying we should not =
completely ignore it.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I am in full agreement with these principles, =
since it would make alignment for any present or future COAP version of =
this protocol to be built. I think we can manage that while still =
focusing on an HTTP-bound process, without getting into the =
over-abstraction problem.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In my =
experience, it=E2=80=99s much more successful to have a protocol =
strongly integrated with its transport mechanism and then translated out =
to other mechanisms, instead of trying to come up with one universal =
interlingua of a protocol that just get shunted =
along.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Would you provide an example besides =
SOAP for this?</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s the most egregious example =
that comes to mind for me, so that=E2=80=99s why I keep coming back to =
it. I also have in mind a dozen projects that never went anywhere, and =
nobody=E2=80=99s heard of, because of an outmoded effort being put into =
defining abstractions ahead of time in order to allow transport-agnostic =
messaging.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">A similar level of overly-eager abstraction went into JOSE, =
with the JWA document. It makes it so that JWS, JWE, and JWK make no =
sense without JWA, and JWA is just a collection of content that really =
should have been included inline with the other =
documents.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I want to avoid that kind of =
thing.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Agreed</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">This is why SOAP can=E2=80=99t use HTTP verbs =
to communicate things, and why the only signatures it can use are =
internal. When you do that kind of system, you almost always end up =
having people just use it with one transport anyway, like SOAP over =
HTTP.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">3. Why =
is authentication not in scope?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It felt, to me, like =
that might be a bridge too far.</div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I disagree. But I also =
think that authentication is the wrong term. Identity* may be a term =
that maps better, as the Client is wanting to get "identity" data from =
the AS.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">* =
The identity term is super confusing, but authentication implies just =
knowing it is the same user, where OpenID Connect also provides claims =
about the user.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m coming around to this view, =
but I would still like it to be =
separate.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What does separate =
mean?</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It means that the bits that say =E2=80=9C=
this is how you talk about identity information in the response=E2=80=9D =
are controlled by a separate spec that not everyone needs to understand. =
I think there are too many use cases of wanting to get API access and =
NOT user information for it to be a core =
piece.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Some developers only care about =
identity. Some only care about API access. It should be easy for =
both.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Perhaps, but that gets us into an important =
question of what the result of the transaction should be. In my view, =
it=E2=80=99s delegation for access to something =E2=80=94 some bit of =
information. In the OIDC model, that includes information about who the =
current user is. OAuth 2 always returns an access token, no matter what =
you do. Is this still the right model? Right now in XYZ that=E2=80=99s =
how it works, but in the pure-identity case and in Annabelle=E2=80=99s =
extended use case, that isn=E2=80=99t true.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The hard question there, to me, is how do we =
switch that kind of behavior. I=E2=80=99m not fond of something like =
=E2=80=9Creturn_type=3Didentity=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Creturn_type=3Daccess_token=E2=80=9D, since these tend to be =
both limiting and overbuilt at the same time. But I=E2=80=99ve struggled =
with how to manage this, and if we=E2=80=99re going to include identity =
and other use cases in the charter explicitly, then it=E2=80=99s =
something we=E2=80=99ll need to have a good solution for.&nbsp;</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; =
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding-left: 1ex;"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">However, this is arguably getting into the details of how to =
slice up different documents, which is really a decision to be made once =
the WG is running and not during the =
charter.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Currently, identity is not in scope of =
the charter, which is why I am bringing it =
up.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99=
m currently thinking something like this for the charter text to set the =
right scope:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>resulting =
in information about the request (such as a user=E2=80=99s identity or =
current status) and/or an artifact that will allow the client to =
undertake the delegated action.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In =
other words, our focus is on the delegation protocol, not what it=E2=80=99=
s delegating to. But the ability to include information in that protocol =
directly is a potentially powerful pattern and we should probably =
include some of that in our scope. I think the identity portion can be =
fairly minimal, at least as a starting point.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; =
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding-left: 1ex;"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">If we do decide it=E2=80=99s in scope, then I =
think it should be clearly layered on top of the authorization =
layer.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Being layered on top is confusing. An =
OpenID Connect flow where the Client receives an ID token, has not =
authorization, unless you are counting the UX as authorization -- but =
that does not seem like a layer. Would you elaborate?</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What you=E2=80=99re doing in OIDC is =
authorizing the application to know who you are =E2=80=94 to get your =
identity information. That key insight is what makes the combination of =
OAuth and OIDC work as well as it does. And, importantly, once you =
authorize identity access, you can authorize other stuff as =
well.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As =
I stated, there is the UX of authorizing knowing who the user is, but =
there is no artifact representing that authorization as there is in =
OAuth -- ie there is no access token to access a resource. (yes, an =
access token may be used to read the user info endpoint, but that is all =
it can do.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">And it=E2=80=99s the =E2=80=9Cand other =
stuff=E2=80=9D that people really, really, really like about OIDC. =
Nobody ever wants just authorization, in =
practice.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Did you mean to say =
"authentication"?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">If so, then I would posit that there are more OIDC user =
interactions than plain OAuth 2.0 user interactions, and that almost all =
of those OIDC user interactions are just logging in with Google or =
Facebook -- and that there is no "and other stuff".</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, I meant =
authentication, thank you.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s true, =
but I=E2=80=99ll agree that it=E2=80=99s more public-facing. But even if =
what you posit is actually true by raw numbers, it=E2=80=99s not =
universal. In particular, there are a large number of system-to-system =
cases that OAuth 2 covers, which have nothing to do with identity, that =
we don=E2=80=99t want to throw out.</div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'm not suggesting that =
those use cases should be thrown out, nor second =
class.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Good, =
because it=E2=80=99s important that we do think of this as more than =
just a pure authentication system.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">4. When =
you say "not backwards compatible with OAuth 2.0 and its extensions", do =
you expect to define a new standard to replace RFC 6750? Developers will =
have to have a new method to call =
APIs?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kinda. First, it=E2=80=99s more 6749 =
that I want to step away from. But even then, I think keeping just the =
header version of 6750 is OK enough if someone wants to keep using that. =
The thing is, won=E2=80=99t someone seeing an OAuth 2 header assume the =
rest of OAuth 2 infrastructure? In some cases this won=E2=80=99t matter, =
but in many that could be really confusing.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">One of the problems, though, is that =
6750 has already been clouded by things like the MTLS binding, where =
they use =E2=80=9Cbearer=E2=80=9D tokens that have to be bound to the =
client=E2=80=99s certificate. So =E2=80=A6 not much of a bearer token =
anymore.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So, are you are you proposing that Tx =
have a new mechanism for API =
calls?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, I think there will be new =
mechanisms for different kinds of key-bound =
tokens.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So are you proposing that OAuth 3.0 =
will not support bearer tokens?</div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That is not correct and =
I=E2=80=99m not sure where you got that. Bearer tokens are still useful. =
But they should look and behave as distinct from sender-constrained =
tokens. But ultimately we can tell the client how the token gets used, =
as below.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It was not clear from your response, as =
a new mechanism could mean that the old one is not used =
anymore.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To =
clarify, you expect there will be additional =
mechanisms.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Correct. I would expect us to either redefine or =
re-use bearer tokens a la 6750 in some capacity but also have other =
presentation mechanism, like using HTTP Signatures (once Annabelle and =
my draft is real) and MTLS binding (like the OAuth MTLS =
binding).&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""></div><div>Thanks again for the =
great discussion! It=E2=80=99s important to get these details out where =
they=E2=80=99re readable.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp;=E2=80=
=94 Justin</div></body></html>=

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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
CC: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Eve Maler <eve@xmlgrrl.com>, "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>
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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
CC: "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, Eve Maler <eve@xmlgrrl.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] TxAuth Proposed Charter
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Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Framework vs Protocol
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> On Jan 2, 2020, at 5:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> The current document seems to do a better job of laying out a core =
message and communication pattern, but it doesn=E2=80=99t align well =
with the implicit grant. We will want to dig into persistent use cases =
for implicit (e.g., Brian Campbell=E2=80=99s use case in this OAuth =
mailing list thread =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/oauth/RucZHKuRf6HCsWUyJDK0XRwub3w>)=
 to see if the TxAuth pattern can serve them, or if there are gaps that =
need to be filled.

My understanding is that most complications are due to the compatibility =
and migration that comes from the WG recommending against =
front-channel/implicit patterns in the front channel for OAuth 2. I =
don=E2=80=99t think these use cases would have been precluded in a world =
where only code flow had been standardized, and where technologies to =
make code flow viable at initial OAuth 2 standardization had been =
available (such as CORS). Since we now live in that world and are =
talking about an incompatible protocol, I don=E2=80=99t believe these =
sorts of compatibility or migration considerations apply.


The only use case I know of indirectly pushing for implicit is OIDC =
self-issued use case. I would instead describe this as pushing to solve =
several new use cases at once:

1. Use of a local (e.g. non-globally reachable) OP
2. Communication when the client and the OP cannot establish direct =
network communication, such as when both exist sandboxed on a local =
device
3. Defining and mandating client and OP security policy to fit into the =
model of the above two points,=20

I personally don=E2=80=99t think the mechanics self-issued OIDC =
leverages (custom URL redirects and/or localhost listeners) has =
appropriate security or privacy considerations. There are actually zero =
security or privacy considerations regarding self-issued, which I find =
somewhat disappointing.

I also know that one mobile OS vendor has explicitly recommended against =
developers using custom URL schemes to solve new use cases, strongly =
recommending mechanisms such as claimed HTTPS URLs be used instead. This =
vendor has has also gradually increased the complexity and restrictions =
for custom URL use by application developers. In my opinion, there is =
risk in new use of custom URL schemes for local IPC. It is likely not a =
coincidence that custom URL schemes are chosen as they are historically =
the only cross-platform local IPC mechanism without privacy controls, =
user consent, and and other usability restrictions placed upon them.

It is also worth mentioning that OIDC self-issued does not have =
provisions to gain authorization, which might make it difficult to =
consider it in scope for this group=E2=80=99s charter.

-DW=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 2, 2020, at 5:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The current document seems =
to do a better job of laying out a core message and communication =
pattern, but it doesn=E2=80=99t align well with the implicit grant. We =
will want to dig into persistent use cases for implicit (e.g., Brian =
Campbell=E2=80=99s use case in<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/oauth/RucZHKuRf6HCsWUyJDK0XR=
wub3w" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">this OAuth mailing list thread</a>) to see if the TxAuth =
pattern can serve them, or if there are gaps that need to be filled.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><font =
color=3D"#000000" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" =
class=3D"">My understanding is that most complications are due to the =
compatibility and migration that comes from the WG recommending against =
front-channel/implicit patterns in the front channel for OAuth =
2.&nbsp;</span>I don=E2=80=99t think these use cases would have been =
precluded in a world where only code flow had been standardized, and =
where technologies to make code flow viable at initial OAuth 2 =
standardization had been available (such as CORS). Since we now live in =
that world and are talking about an incompatible protocol, I don<span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"">=E2=80=99</span>t =
believe these sorts of compatibility or migration considerations =
apply.</font></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The only use case I know of indirectly pushing for =
implicit is OIDC self-issued use case. I would instead describe this as =
pushing to solve several new use cases at once:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0);">1. Use of a local (e.g. non-globally reachable) OP</div><div>2. =
Communication when the client and the OP cannot establish direct network =
communication, such as when both exist sandboxed on a local =
device</div><div>3. Defining and mandating client and OP security policy =
to fit into the model of the above two points,&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I personally don=E2=80=99t think the mechanics =
self-issued OIDC leverages (custom URL redirects and/or localhost =
listeners) has appropriate security or privacy considerations. There are =
actually zero security or privacy considerations regarding self-issued, =
which I find somewhat disappointing.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=
 also know that one mobile OS vendor has explicitly recommended against =
developers using custom URL schemes to solve new use cases, strongly =
recommending mechanisms such as claimed HTTPS URLs be used instead. This =
vendor has has also gradually increased the complexity and restrictions =
for custom URL use by application developers. In my opinion, there is =
risk in new use of custom URL schemes for local IPC. It is likely not a =
coincidence that custom URL schemes are chosen as they are historically =
the only cross-platform local IPC mechanism without privacy controls, =
user consent, and and other usability restrictions placed upon =
them.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It is also worth mentioning =
that OIDC self-issued does not have provisions to gain authorization, =
which might make it difficult to consider it in scope for this group=E2=80=
=99s charter.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>-DW</div></body></html>=

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Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 22:21:35 +0200
From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
CC: "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, Aaron Parecki <aaron@parecki.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, <txauth@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Txauth] TxAuth Proposed Charter
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Proposed Charter
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I strongly agree with Justin=E2=80=99s plan, and suggest that we revisit the name=
 a year after chartering this work.

=20

Naming *is* important. The OAuth3 name indicates to the market that this is=
 the next iteration of OAuth2, regardless of technical backward compatibilit=
y. By =E2=80=9Cnext iteration=E2=80=9D I mean that most of the OAuth2 use cases are cove=
red, and the new protocol is =E2=80=9Cbetter=E2=80=9D than the old one in some sense.

=20

In a year we will be able to make a call whether there is good coverage of =
use cases with this protocol, and then we will need to reach community conse=
nsus that this is the next protocol iteration, where the community includes =
some people who will not deploy it for years to come.

=20

Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron

=20

From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Date: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 20:37
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Cc: "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, Aaron Parecki <aaron@parecki.com>, Yaron=
 Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Brian Camp=
bell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, <txauth@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Proposed Charter

=20

And just to reiterate a previous point =E2=80=94 as much as I want to make the ca=
se for calling this work OAuth 3, it=E2=80=99s not something I=E2=80=99m going to die fo=
r. The work is way more important than the name.=20

=20

So with that, I would propose that we basically punt on naming things until=
 that becomes important. I say we name both the working group and the first =
document =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D, and keep this mailing list as its base.

=20

If the working group decides in a couple years that this really should be r=
enamed, we can do that. It=E2=80=99s happened before =E2=80=94 and again I=E2=80=99m calling t=
o the model of HTTP/3. It started as QUIC in the QUIC working group, and a y=
ear ago the QUIC working group decided to rename it to HTTP/3, with the coor=
dination and blessing of the HTTP working group. Once QUIC group winds down,=
 the HTTP/3 protocol will come under the stewardship of the HTTP working gro=
up. I can easily see a similar pattern happening here, where we create TxAut=
h and eventually it gets handed over to the OAuth WG.

=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin



On Dec 31, 2019, at 8:09 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

=20

My understanding is that HTTP3 is not backwards compatible, since QUIC was =
built on UDP from the start and the considerations are pretty different from=
 TCP there.=20

=20

I don=E2=80=99t think the safe answer is =E2=80=9Cdo nothing=E2=80=9D today because there is =
a large and vibrant community around OAuth 2. The safe answer is to deploy s=
omething that solves your problems.

=20

I think that we=E2=80=99re going to have the imaging issue vis a vis =E2=80=9Creplacing=
 OAuth 2=E2=80=9D whether we call this OAuth 3 or TxAuth or whatever. Truth is for=
 some people we will be replacing OAuth 2, and some people will be throwing =
out their OAuth 2 implementations (if we=E2=80=99re successful). But that=E2=80=99s the =
cost of tracking new technology, and it=E2=80=99s pretty clear to me that this wor=
k has a long ways to go.

=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin



On Dec 30, 2019, at 6:25 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

=20

I significant difference in this case is that OAuth 3 is NOT backward compa=
tible with OAuth 2.

=20

HTTP 2 was backwards compatible, as is HTTP 3 from what I understand.

=20

This has enterprises question what they should do, and the safe answer is d=
o nothing. I think this is what Brian was getting at on confusion. People ar=
e confused on what they should do. OAuth 3 not being backward compatible imp=
lies work done with OAuth 2 may have to be thrown away.

=20

=20

On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 9:07 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

This is going to be the case whatever we call this new work. Progress is go=
ing to continue to happen, and if a large enterprise decides to wait for the=
 new shiny thing 3 years from now, then that=E2=80=99s on them.=20

=20

In my experience, it=E2=80=99s more likely that a large enterprise is going to sh=
y away from the new shiny thing and go with what they can buy in a supported=
 package off the shelf. And I think that=E2=80=99s the kind of timescale that=E2=80=99s =
going to drive most of the developers decisions around whether to track the =
new work or use what=E2=80=99s out there =E2=80=94 they need to ask =E2=80=9Cwhat do I need?=E2=80=
=9D And =E2=80=9Cwhen do I need it?=E2=80=9D

=20

But these are :always: the questions that you need to ask when starting a p=
roject and choosing technologies.=20

=20

I still contend that the name OAuth 3 does a better job at communicating wh=
at=E2=80=99s going on here.

=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin



On Dec 27, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

=20

I agree with Brian. Developers such as large enterprise customers are going=
 to be confused when they hear there is an OAuth 3 in the works. Some will p=
ush pause on projects because they worry that it will be outdated when it is=
 released. They won't know which to deploy, even though OAuth 3 is not avail=
able.=20

=20

Also, if what we are working on includes authentication / identity -- it no=
 longer is just delegated authorization

=20

See inline comments below.

=20

=20

On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 4:22 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

Brian, I hear what you=E2=80=99re saying, but I disagree completely.

=20

Who would be confused by seeing a major revision to an existing protocol th=
at worked in a different way and did the same things but also new things? Th=
at happens all the time.

=20

And it causes market confusion all the time. Conservative organizations sto=
p doing things when it is not clear what the future will be.

=20

=20

Was there significant confusion between OAuth 1 and 2, enough to hamper ado=
ption of either? For the people who deeply invested in OAuth 1 and didn=E2=80=99t =
need or want the OAuth 2 newness, they stuck with it (see: twitter).=20

=20

Twitter stuck with OAuth 1 because they did not like bearer tokens.=20

=20

Yes, there was lots of confusion between OAuth 1 and 2. Erin did not want w=
hat became OAuth 2 to be called OAuth because of the confusion. Hence it was=
 called WRAP early. The actual name of the WG is "Web Authorization Protocol=
"

=20

=20

=20

Was OpenID Connect a major disservice to OpenID 2? It was a disruption, for=
 sure, but people transitioned where it made sense for them, and in many cas=
es that took years of dual-deployment and transition.=20

=20

The work that was being done on OpenID 3 was killed because a large platfor=
m company that starts with G did not want to confuse their customers about a=
 new version.

=20

=20

I see us walking along the same kind of path here, nearly a decade later. T=
hat=E2=80=99s why I think OAuth 3 makes sense as a name for the output of this wor=
k. Or at the very least, for the core delegation protocol portion of whateve=
r we make. I think it sends the right message to implementers and developers=
: the community that knows and understands OAuth 2 is working on the next ve=
rsion of that thing, so when it=E2=80=99s ready, maybe you should look at it. Unti=
l it=E2=80=99s done, and for a long time after, OAuth 2 is still going to be there=
 and be the right answer.=20

=20

I agree that people may be confused if it is called something else that OAu=
th, but if it is broader than OAuth, then that is confusing as well.

=20

=20

The name isn=E2=80=99t a hill I=E2=80=99m committed to dying alone on, but I think it s=
ends a :bad: message if we call it something new entirely. Namely, that we t=
hink people :should: abandon the entire world of OAuth, all of its ideas and=
 implementations. That=E2=80=99s not what we=E2=80=99re doing with this design, it=E2=80=99s a=
n evolution as I see things. And as an evolution, a new major revision numbe=
r makes sense.

=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin



On Dec 24, 2019, at 9:54 AM, Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com> wr=
ote:

=20

Naming any prospective resulting work here "OAuth 3.0" would significantly =
exacerbate confusion in the whole space and would be a major disservice to t=
he broader community.=20

=20

=20

On Mon, Dec 23, 2019 at 7:39 PM Aaron Parecki <aaron@parecki.com> wrote:

I definitely am not trying to discuss specifics of *how* authentication sho=
uld be included right now, but I just want to make sure it's included in the=
 charter so that we can actually talk about it and it won't be "out of scope=
" when we eventually do talk about the specifics.

=20

Aaron

=20

=20

=20

On Mon, Dec 23, 2019 at 1:51 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

I=E2=80=99m fine with it being in charter but I do think it should be a clearly s=
eparate layer, much like OIDC/Facebook Connect/GitHub Login/etc are with OAu=
th today. In all of these the authorization is first, and I think that=E2=80=99s t=
he right pattern. So if we do take it on we=E2=80=99ll just need to be careful how=
 it=E2=80=99s structured in with everything else. Otherwise, I think the authentic=
ation side can quickly overwhelm and drag down the authorization side.

=20

Good news: A lot of the additional stuff in OIDC is there to patch holes in=
 core OAuth in a common fashion, and we=E2=80=99ll at least be in a position to no=
t have to do that again.=20

=20

=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin



On Dec 22, 2019, at 10:46 PM, Aaron Parecki <aaron@parecki.com> wrote:

=20

I do think authentication should be part of the charter from the outset. Fr=
ankly the fact that authentication is intentionally left out of OAuth and ha=
s to be bolted on to the side via OpenID Connect is one of the exact reasons=
 people get confused about the whole space to begin with.=20

=20

It's a relatively minor addition to the existing proposed spec to make it u=
seful as a minimum viable authentication solution, and I'd like to see that =
be addressed at the beginning of this work.

=20

I think we can do this in a smart way and that authentication should be inc=
luded in the charter.

=20

Aaron

=20

=20

=20

=20

On Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 1:51 PM Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote=
:

Hi Justin,

=20

I think the charter should mention target use cases. For example, =E2=80=9Call us=
e cases supported by OAuth 2 will be supported by the new protocol=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9C=
the protocol will support at least use cases X and Y=E2=80=9D.

=20

And given the importance of OIDC, we could say something like: =E2=80=9CThe proto=
col will allow future extension to support authentication, in an analogous w=
ay to OpenID Connect. However authentication is explicitly not part of the i=
nitial scope.=E2=80=9D

=20

Thanks,

                Yaron

=20

From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer <jricher@=
mit.edu>
Date: Saturday, December 21, 2019 at 00:34
To: <txauth@ietf.org>
Cc: "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Subject: [Txauth] TxAuth Proposed Charter

=20

Hi all,

=20

As discussed in Singapore, no matter what forum TxAuth takes, its work will=
 require a new charter. With that in mind, I=E2=80=99ve taken a bit of time to put=
 together a proposed charter text for the TxAuth work:

=20

This group is chartered to develop a next-generation transactional authoriz=
ation and delegation protocol for HTTP-based APIs and their clients. These t=
ransactions will allow an authorizing party to delegate a right of access fo=
r an API or set of APIs through an authorization server to a software client=
 acting on behalf of an authorizing party.=20

=20

The group will deliver a protocol specification detailing how a client can =
request and obtain delegated access, how an authorization server can provide=
 delegated access, how an authorized party can authorize delegated access, a=
nd how that authorized access can be communicated to the resources being pro=
tected. These actions will be connected through an explicit transaction betw=
een the client and authorization server, resulting in an artifact that will =
allow the client to undertake the delegated action.=20

=20

Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:

- Fine-grained specification of resource access

- Delegation between multiple users

- Web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications

=20

The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexi=
bility in areas including:

=20

- Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of possessi=
on=20

- User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods

- Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings

=20

The artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be backwards-co=
mpatible with OAuth 2.0 and its extensions.=20

=20

While this work could be done in within the OAuth working group, I now beli=
eve that it should be done in a new working group, and that we should try to=
 get that working group up and running prior to the Vancouver meeting in Mar=
ch. I think this group should stay here on the TxAuth list, and it=E2=80=99s my su=
ggestion that the resulting work be called OAuth 3.0.=20

=20

Why a new group? I think that the OAuth working group should remain focused=
 on extending, patching, and adapting OAuth 2.0 to a changing world. I plan =
to be engaged in both groups, and I know most of you are as well, but that=E2=80=
=99s not universal. Since OAuth 2.0 is so established already, there are a LOT=
 of people who aren=E2=80=99t going to be interested in something new any time soo=
n. But on the other hand, there are a number of people for whom OAuth 2.0 do=
es not work, or is at the very least a poor fit, and we=E2=80=99ll want to bring t=
hem in at this early stage. So even with significant overlap, I think there=E2=
=80=99s enough disconnect in the community from both sides that warrants a new g=
roup. In addition, I think this is a big enough piece of work that it=E2=80=99s si=
mply too much for the OAuth working group to be able to focus on. We wouldn=E2=
=80=99t be able to get additional meeting time, and OAuth already has trouble fi=
tting into its two meeting slots as it is.

=20

I=E2=80=99ve published a blog post detailing more of my rationale:

=20

https://medium..com/@justinsecurity/the-case-for-oauth-3-0-why-a-new-workin=
g-group-d6229ba8e36?

=20

Please suggest changes to the proposed charter text above. It=E2=80=99s my hope t=
hat we can get the chartering process started.

=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin

-- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/txauth=20

--=20
Txauth mailing list
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

--=20

----

Aaron Parecki

aaronparecki.com

@aaronpk

=20

=20

--=20

----

Aaron Parecki

aaronparecki.com

@aaronpk

=20

--=20
Txauth mailing list
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


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=20

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=20

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--></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSe=
ction1><p class=3DMsoNormal>I strongly agree with Justin=E2=80=99s plan, and suggest=
 that we revisit the name a year after chartering this work.<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Naming *<b>is</b>*=
 important. The OAuth3 name indicates to the market that this is the next it=
eration of OAuth2, regardless of technical backward compatibility. By =E2=80=9Cnex=
t iteration=E2=80=9D I mean that most of the OAuth2 use cases are covered, and the=
 new protocol is =E2=80=9Cbetter=E2=80=9D than the old one in some sense.<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>In a year we will=
 be able to make a call whether there is good coverage of use cases with thi=
s protocol, and then we will need to reach community consensus that this is =
the next protocol iteration, where the community includes some people who wi=
ll not deploy it for years to come.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:=
3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color=
:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Justin R=
icher &lt;jricher@mit.edu&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at =
20:37<br><b>To: </b>Dick Hardt &lt;dick.hardt@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&q=
uot;rdd@cert.org&quot; &lt;rdd@cert.org&gt;, Aaron Parecki &lt;aaron@parecki=
.com&gt;, Yaron Sheffer &lt;yaronf.ietf@gmail.com&gt;, Benjamin Kaduk &lt;ka=
duk@mit.edu&gt;, Brian Campbell &lt;bcampbell@pingidentity.com&gt;, &lt;txau=
th@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Proposed Charter<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>And just to reiterate a previous point =E2=80=94 as much as I wan=
t to make the case for calling this work OAuth 3, it=E2=80=99s not something I=E2=80=99m=
 going to die for. The work is way more important than the name.&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal>So with that, I would propose that we basically punt on naming thing=
s until that becomes important. I say we name both the working group and the=
 first document =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D, and keep this mailing list as its base.<o:p></=
o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal>If the working group decides in a couple years that this really=
 should be renamed, we can do that. It=E2=80=99s happened before =E2=80=94 and again I=E2=80=
=99m calling to the model of HTTP/3. It started as QUIC in the QUIC working gr=
oup, and a year ago the QUIC working group decided to rename it to HTTP/3, w=
ith the coordination and blessing of the HTTP working group. Once QUIC group=
 winds down, the HTTP/3 protocol will come under the stewardship of the HTTP=
 working group. I can easily see a similar pattern happening here, where we =
create TxAuth and eventually it gets handed over to the OAuth WG.<o:p></o:p>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p=
></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Dec 31, 2019, at 8:09 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>My understan=
ding is that HTTP3 is not backwards compatible, since QUIC was built on UDP =
from the start and the considerations are pretty different from TCP there.&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal>I don=E2=80=99t think the safe answer is =E2=80=9Cdo nothing=E2=80=9D today =
because there is a large and vibrant community around OAuth 2. The safe answ=
er is to deploy something that solves your problems.<o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I th=
ink that we=E2=80=99re going to have the imaging issue vis a vis =E2=80=9Creplacing OAut=
h 2=E2=80=9D whether we call this OAuth 3 or TxAuth or whatever. Truth is for some=
 people we will be replacing OAuth 2, and some people will be throwing out t=
heir OAuth 2 implementations (if we=E2=80=99re successful). But that=E2=80=99s the cost =
of tracking new technology, and it=E2=80=99s pretty clear to me that this work has=
 a long ways to go.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p></o:p></p><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt=
;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Dec 30, 2019, at 6:25 PM, D=
ick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I significant difference in this case is that OAuth=
 3 is NOT backward compatible with OAuth 2.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>HTTP 2 was backward=
s compatible, as is HTTP 3 from what I understand.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>This h=
as enterprises question what they should do, and the safe answer is do nothi=
ng. I think this is what Brian was getting at on confusion. People are confu=
sed on what they should do. OAuth 3 not being backward compatible implies wo=
rk done with OAuth 2 may have to be thrown away.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 9:07 AM J=
ustin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #C=
CCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal>This is going to be the case whatever we call this new=
 work. Progress is going to continue to happen, and if a large enterprise de=
cides to wait for the new shiny thing 3 years from now, then that=E2=80=99s on the=
m.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal>In my experience, it=E2=80=99s more likely that a large ente=
rprise is going to shy away from the new shiny thing and go with what they c=
an buy in a supported package off the shelf. And I think that=E2=80=99s the kind o=
f timescale that=E2=80=99s going to drive most of the developers decisions around =
whether to track the new work or use what=E2=80=99s out there =E2=80=94 they need to ask=
 =E2=80=9Cwhat do I need?=E2=80=9D And =E2=80=9Cwhen do I need it?=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></p></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>But t=
hese are :always: the questions that you need to ask when starting a project=
 and choosing technologies.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I still contend that th=
e name OAuth 3 does a better job at communicating what=E2=80=99s going on here.<o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>=
<br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Dec 27, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div>=
<div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I agree with Brian. Developers such as large en=
terprise customers are going&nbsp;to be confused when they hear there is an =
OAuth 3 in the works. Some will push pause on projects because they worry th=
at it will be outdated when it is released. They won't know which to deploy,=
 even though OAuth 3 is not available.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Also, if what we a=
re working on includes authentication / identity -- it no longer is just del=
egated authorization<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>See inline comments below.<o:p></o:p=
></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Tue, D=
ec 24, 2019 at 4:22 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote=
 style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0p=
t;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Brian, I hear =
what you=E2=80=99re saying, but I disagree completely.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Who would be c=
onfused by seeing a major revision to an existing protocol that worked in a =
different way and did the same things but also new things? That happens all =
the time.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>And it causes market confusi=
on all the time. Conservative organizations stop doing things when it is not=
 clear what the future will be.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>=
<div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal>Was there significant confusion between OAuth 1 and 2, enough to hamper =
adoption of either? For the people who deeply invested in OAuth 1 and didn=E2=80=
=99t need or want the OAuth 2 newness, they stuck with it (see: twitter).&nbsp=
;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Twitter stuck with OAuth 1 because t=
hey did not like bearer tokens.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Yes, there was lots=
 of confusion between OAuth 1 and 2. Erin did not want what became OAuth 2 t=
o be called OAuth because of the confusion. Hence it was called WRAP early. =
The actual name of the WG is &quot;Web Authorization Protocol&quot;<o:p></o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-=
left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-=
right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal>Was OpenID Connect a major disservice to OpenID 2? It was a d=
isruption, for sure, but people transitioned where it made sense for them, a=
nd in many cases that took years of dual-deployment and transition.&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The work that was being done on OpenID 3=
 was killed because a large platform company that starts with G did not want=
 to confuse their customers about a new version.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;b=
order-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;m=
argin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal>I see us walking along the same kind of path here, near=
ly a decade later. That=E2=80=99s why I think OAuth 3 makes sense as a name for th=
e output of this work. Or at the very least, for the core delegation protoco=
l portion of whatever we make. I think it sends the right message to impleme=
nters and developers: the community that knows and understands OAuth 2 is wo=
rking on the next version of that thing, so when it=E2=80=99s ready, maybe you sho=
uld look at it. Until it=E2=80=99s done, and for a long time after, OAuth 2 is sti=
ll going to be there and be the right answer.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></di=
v></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal>I agree that people may be confused if it is called something =
else that OAuth, but if it is broader than OAuth, then that is confusing as =
well.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div=
><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in =
0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The name isn=E2=80=99t a hil=
l I=E2=80=99m committed to dying alone on, but I think it sends a :bad: message if=
 we call it something new entirely. Namely, that we think people :should: ab=
andon the entire world of OAuth, all of its ideas and implementations. That=E2=
=80=99s not what we=E2=80=99re doing with this design, it=E2=80=99s an evolution as I see th=
ings. And as an evolution, a new major revision number makes sense.<o:p></o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o=
:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal>On Dec 24, 2019, at 9:54 AM, Brian Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com" target=3D"_blank">bcampbell@pingidentity.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=
<div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Naming any prospective resulting work here=
 &quot;OAuth 3.0&quot; would significantly exacerbate confusion in the whole=
 space and would be a major disservice to the broader community. <o:p></o:p>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Mon, Dec=
 23, 2019 at 7:39 PM Aaron Parecki &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:aaron@parecki.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">aaron@parecki.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquo=
te style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.=
0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I defin=
itely am not trying to discuss specifics of *how* authentication should be i=
ncluded right now, but I just want to make sure it's included in the charter=
 so that we can actually talk about it and it won't be &quot;out of scope&qu=
ot; when we eventually do talk about the specifics.<o:p></o:p></p></div></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
>Aaron<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Mon, Dec 23, 2019 at 1=
:51 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jr=
icher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:n=
one;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.=
8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99m fine with it being in ch=
arter but I do think it should be a clearly separate layer, much like OIDC/F=
acebook Connect/GitHub Login/etc are with OAuth today. In all of these the a=
uthorization is first, and I think that=E2=80=99s the right pattern. So if we do t=
ake it on we=E2=80=99ll just need to be careful how it=E2=80=99s structured in with ever=
ything else. Otherwise, I think the authentication side can quickly overwhel=
m and drag down the authorization side.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Good news: A lot of the=
 additional stuff in OIDC is there to patch holes in core OAuth in a common =
fashion, and we=E2=80=99ll at least be in a position to not have to do that again.=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></=
o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal>On Dec 22, 2019, at 10:46 PM, Aaron Parecki &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:aaron@parecki.com" target=3D"_blank">aaron@parecki.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>I do think authentication should be part of the charter from the =
outset. Frankly the fact that authentication is intentionally left out of OA=
uth and has to be bolted on to the side via OpenID Connect is one of the exa=
ct reasons people get confused about the whole space to begin with.&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>It's a relatively minor addition to the existing prop=
osed spec to make it useful as a minimum viable authentication solution, and=
 I'd like to see that be addressed at the beginning of this work.<o:p></o:p>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal>I think we can do this in a smart way and that authentication shoul=
d be included in the charter.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Aaron<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On=
 Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 1:51 PM Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;paddi=
ng:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi Just=
in,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-marg=
in-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margi=
n-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I think the charter should mentio=
n target use cases. For example, =E2=80=9Call use cases supported by OAuth 2 will =
be supported by the new protocol=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cthe protocol will support at least=
 use cases X and Y=E2=80=9D.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-to=
p-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>And given the =
importance of OIDC, we could say something like: =E2=80=9CThe protocol will allow =
future extension to support authentication, in an analogous way to OpenID Co=
nnect. However authentication is explicitly not part of the initial scope.=E2=80=
=9D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin=
-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; Yaron<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-=
margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div st=
yle=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in=
;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margi=
n-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'=
>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Txauth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
txauth-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on =
behalf of Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank"=
>jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Saturday, December 21, 2019 at 00:3=
4<br><b>To: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">txauth@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.org" target=3D"_=
blank">rdd@cert.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">rdd@cert.org</a>&gt;, Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" =
target=3D"_blank">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[Txauth] TxAuth Pro=
posed Charter</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-=
margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'=
>Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:aut=
o;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>As discussed=
 in Singapore, no matter what forum TxAuth takes, its work will require a ne=
w charter. With that in mind, I=E2=80=99ve taken a bit of time to put together a p=
roposed charter text for the TxAuth work:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;m=
argin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-marg=
in-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>This group is chartered to devel=
op a next-generation transactional authorization and delegation protocol for=
 HTTP-based APIs and their clients. These transactions will allow an authori=
zing party to delegate a right of access for an API or set of APIs through a=
n authorization server to a software client acting on behalf of an authorizi=
ng party.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margi=
n-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'=
>The group will deliver a protocol specification detailing how a client can =
request and obtain delegated access, how an authorization server can provide=
 delegated access, how an authorized party can authorize delegated access, a=
nd how that authorized access can be communicated to the resources being pro=
tected. These actions will be connected through an explicit transaction betw=
een the client and authorization server, resulting in an artifact that will =
allow the client to undertake the delegated action.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margi=
n-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Additionally, the delegation proc=
ess will allow for:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-m=
argin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>- Fine-grained specification =
of resource access<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-ma=
rgin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>- Delegation between multiple =
users<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>- Web, mobile, single-page, and other clien=
t applications<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin=
-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>=
The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexib=
ility in areas including:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto'>- Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof o=
f possession&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-ma=
rgin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>- User interaction mechanisms =
including web and non-web methods<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>- Token present=
ation mechanisms and key bindings<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margi=
n-bottom-alt:auto'>The artifacts for this work are not intended or expected =
to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 and its extensions.&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:a=
uto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>While this=
 work could be done in within the OAuth working group, I now believe that it=
 should be done in a new working group, and that we should try to get that w=
orking group up and running prior to the Vancouver meeting in March. I think=
 this group should stay here on the TxAuth list, and it=E2=80=99s my suggestion th=
at the resulting work be called OAuth 3.0.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt=
:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Why a new group? I think that the OAuth wo=
rking group should remain focused on extending, patching, and adapting OAuth=
 2.0 to a changing world. I plan to be engaged in both groups, and I know mo=
st of you are as well, but that=E2=80=99s not universal. Since OAuth 2.0 is so est=
ablished already, there are a LOT of people who aren=E2=80=99t going to be interes=
ted in something new any time soon. But on the other hand, there are a numbe=
r of people for whom OAuth 2.0 does not work, or is at the very least a poor=
 fit, and we=E2=80=99ll want to bring them in at this early stage. So even with si=
gnificant overlap, I think there=E2=80=99s enough disconnect in the community from=
 both sides that warrants a new group. In addition, I think this is a big en=
ough piece of work that it=E2=80=99s simply too much for the OAuth working group t=
o be able to focus on. We wouldn=E2=80=99t be able to get additional meeting time,=
 and OAuth already has trouble fitting into its two meeting slots as it is.<=
o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;m=
so-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I=E2=80=99ve publishe=
d a blog post detailing more of my rationale:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:au=
to;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href=3D"https://medium.com/@justinsecurity/t=
he-case-for-oauth-3-0-why-a-new-working-group-d6229ba8e36?" target=3D"_blank">=
https://medium..com/@justinsecurity/the-case-for-oauth-3-0-why-a-new-working=
-group-d6229ba8e36?</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'm=
so-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto'>Please suggest changes to the proposed charter text above. It=E2=80=99s m=
y hope that we can get the chartering process started.<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:=
auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-t=
op-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p></o:p></p></div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:aut=
o'>-- Txauth mailing list <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">T=
xauth@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a> <o:p></o:p></=
p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- <br>Txauth mailing list<br><a href=3D"mail=
to:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/txauth</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=3DM=
soNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>----<o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Aaron Parecki<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"http://aaronparecki.com/" target=3D"_blank">aaronparecki.c=
om</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"http://twitter.c=
om/aaronpk" target=3D"_blank">@aaronpk</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>----<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Aaron Parecki<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"http://aaronparecki.com/" target=3D"_blank">aaronp=
arecki.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"http://t=
witter.com/aaronpk" target=3D"_blank">@aaronpk</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- <br>=
Txauth mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txau=
th@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><o:p></o:p></p=
></blockquote></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><b><i><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#555555;border:none windowtext 1=
.0pt;padding:0in'>CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidentia=
l and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any=
 review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.&n=
bsp; If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sen=
der immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments fr=
om your computer. Thank you.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l>-- <br>Txauth mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/t=
xauth" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><o:p>=
</o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-=
- <br>Txauth mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org">Txauth@ietf.or=
g</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth<o:p></o:p></p></div></=
blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></body>=
</html>

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To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [UNVERIFIED SENDER]  Framework vs Protocol
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I don=E2=80=99t think =E2=80=9Calignment with the implicit grant=E2=80=9D =
should be a goal here. I think addressing the same use cases as the =
implicit grant is good, but for that we=E2=80=99ve got a lot better =
tools today than we did a decade ago, and we don=E2=80=99t need to make =
the same mistakes in new work just for the sake of aligning it.=20

The self-issued OP model does a decent enough job of using what tools =
were there at the time to get around OIDC=E2=80=99s limitations, but I =
think there=E2=80=99s a much better approach available to us here.=20

And in all truth, the answer might be =E2=80=9Csomething else =
entirely=E2=80=9D. We can=E2=80=99t solve every problem and use case, =
and I don=E2=80=99t think it does this work any favors to =
over-generalize it at the expense of a set of things we do understand. =
Grounding us like that is one of the reasons that I put the =
=E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D language in the proposed charter text. I =
am proposing that we approach not just a certain set of problems but do =
so in a particular way, without necessarily presuming the solution. I =
think we would all want this new work to be focused on something =
tractable.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 3, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> I haven=E2=80=99t seen a detailed analysis of how implicit use cases =
would map onto TxAuth, so while I think you are correct I=E2=80=99m not =
yet confident that the only challenges are migration related, and that =
there aren=E2=80=99t still some important edge cases lurking in the =
implicit space that aren=E2=80=99t well served by the TxAuth approach.
> =20
> I generally agree that OIDC self-issued OP is conflating several =
different problems that would be better addressed on an individual =
basis. Though it does demonstrate how TxAuth=E2=80=99s dependency on a =
transaction endpoint reachable by the client favors external identity =
solutions over those under the direct control of the end user.
> =20
> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
> =20
> =20
> From: David Waite <david@alkaline-solutions.com>
> Date: Friday, January 3, 2020 at 12:27 AM
> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> Subject: [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: [Txauth] Framework vs Protocol
> =20
>=20
>=20
>> On Jan 2, 2020, at 5:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>> The current document seems to do a better job of laying out a core =
message and communication pattern, but it doesn=E2=80=99t align well =
with the implicit grant. We will want to dig into persistent use cases =
for implicit (e.g., Brian Campbell=E2=80=99s use case in this OAuth =
mailing list thread =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/oauth/RucZHKuRf6HCsWUyJDK0XRwub3w>)=
 to see if the TxAuth pattern can serve them, or if there are gaps that =
need to be filled.
> =20
> My understanding is that most complications are due to the =
compatibility and migration that comes from the WG recommending against =
front-channel/implicit patterns in the front channel for OAuth 2. I =
don=E2=80=99t think these use cases would have been precluded in a world =
where only code flow had been standardized, and where technologies to =
make code flow viable at initial OAuth 2 standardization had been =
available (such as CORS). Since we now live in that world and are =
talking about an incompatible protocol, I don=E2=80=99t believe these =
sorts of compatibility or migration considerations apply.
> =20
> =20
> The only use case I know of indirectly pushing for implicit is OIDC =
self-issued use case. I would instead describe this as pushing to solve =
several new use cases at once:
> =20
> 1. Use of a local (e.g. non-globally reachable) OP
> 2. Communication when the client and the OP cannot establish direct =
network communication, such as when both exist sandboxed on a local =
device
> 3. Defining and mandating client and OP security policy to fit into =
the model of the above two points,=20
> =20
> I personally don=E2=80=99t think the mechanics self-issued OIDC =
leverages (custom URL redirects and/or localhost listeners) has =
appropriate security or privacy considerations. There are actually zero =
security or privacy considerations regarding self-issued, which I find =
somewhat disappointing.
> =20
> I also know that one mobile OS vendor has explicitly recommended =
against developers using custom URL schemes to solve new use cases, =
strongly recommending mechanisms such as claimed HTTPS URLs be used =
instead. This vendor has has also gradually increased the complexity and =
restrictions for custom URL use by application developers. In my =
opinion, there is risk in new use of custom URL schemes for local IPC. =
It is likely not a coincidence that custom URL schemes are chosen as =
they are historically the only cross-platform local IPC mechanism =
without privacy controls, user consent, and and other usability =
restrictions placed upon them.
> =20
> It is also worth mentioning that OIDC self-issued does not have =
provisions to gain authorization, which might make it difficult to =
consider it in scope for this group=E2=80=99s charter.
> =20
> -DW


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
don=E2=80=99t think =E2=80=9Calignment with the implicit grant=E2=80=9D =
should be a goal here. I think addressing the same use cases as the =
implicit grant is good, but for that we=E2=80=99ve got a lot better =
tools today than we did a decade ago, and we don=E2=80=99t need to make =
the same mistakes in new work just for the sake of aligning =
it.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
self-issued OP model does a decent enough job of using what tools were =
there at the time to get around OIDC=E2=80=99s limitations, but I think =
there=E2=80=99s a much better approach available to us =
here.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">And =
in all truth, the answer might be =E2=80=9Csomething else entirely=E2=80=9D=
. We can=E2=80=99t solve every problem and use case, and I don=E2=80=99t =
think it does this work any favors to over-generalize it at the expense =
of a set of things we do understand. Grounding us like that is one of =
the reasons that I put the =E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D language in =
the proposed charter text. I am proposing that we approach not just a =
certain set of problems but do so in a particular way, without =
necessarily presuming the solution. I think we would all want this new =
work to be focused on something tractable.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 3, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I =
haven=E2=80=99t seen a detailed analysis of how implicit use cases would =
map onto TxAuth, so while I think you are correct I=E2=80=99m not yet =
confident that the only challenges are migration related, and that there =
aren=E2=80=99t still some important edge cases lurking in the implicit =
space that aren=E2=80=99t well served by the TxAuth approach.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I =
generally agree that OIDC self-issued OP is conflating several different =
problems that would be better addressed on an individual basis. Though =
it does demonstrate how TxAuth=E2=80=99s dependency on a transaction =
endpoint reachable by the client favors external identity solutions over =
those under the direct control of the end user.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">=E2=80=93&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">AWS Identity<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">David Waite &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david@alkaline-solutions.com" =
class=3D"">david@alkaline-solutions.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Friday, January 3, 2020 =
at 12:27 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Dick =
Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>[UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: =
[Txauth] Framework vs Protocol<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jan 2, 2020, at 5:18 PM, Richard =
Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The current document seems to do a =
better job of laying out a core message and communication pattern, but =
it doesn=E2=80=99t align well with the implicit grant. We will want to =
dig into persistent use cases for implicit (e.g., Brian Campbell=E2=80=99s=
 use case in<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/oauth/RucZHKuRf6HCsWUyJDK0XR=
wub3w" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">this OAuth mailing =
list thread</span></a>) to see if the TxAuth pattern can serve them, or =
if there are gaps that need to be filled.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">My understanding is that most =
complications are due to the compatibility and migration that comes from =
the WG recommending against front-channel/implicit patterns in the front =
channel for OAuth 2.&nbsp;I don=E2=80=99t think these use cases would =
have been precluded in a world where only code flow had been =
standardized, and where technologies to make code flow viable at initial =
OAuth 2 standardization had been available (such as CORS). Since we now =
live in that world and are talking about an incompatible protocol, I =
don=E2=80=99t believe these sorts of compatibility or migration =
considerations apply.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The only use case I know of indirectly =
pushing for implicit is OIDC self-issued use case. I would instead =
describe this as pushing to solve several new use cases at once:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">1. Use of a =
local (e.g. non-globally reachable) OP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">2. Communication when the client and the OP cannot establish =
direct network communication, such as when both exist sandboxed on a =
local device<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">3. Defining and mandating client and OP =
security policy to fit into the model of the above two points,&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I personally don=E2=80=99t think the =
mechanics self-issued OIDC leverages (custom URL redirects and/or =
localhost listeners) has appropriate security or privacy considerations. =
There are actually zero security or privacy considerations regarding =
self-issued, which I find somewhat disappointing.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I also know that one mobile OS vendor =
has explicitly recommended against developers using custom URL schemes =
to solve new use cases, strongly recommending mechanisms such as claimed =
HTTPS URLs be used instead. This vendor has has also gradually increased =
the complexity and restrictions for custom URL use by application =
developers. In my opinion, there is risk in new use of custom URL =
schemes for local IPC. It is likely not a coincidence that custom URL =
schemes are chosen as they are historically the only cross-platform =
local IPC mechanism without privacy controls, user consent, and and =
other usability restrictions placed upon them.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It is also worth mentioning that OIDC =
self-issued does not have provisions to gain authorization, which might =
make it difficult to consider it in scope for this group=E2=80=99s =
charter.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">-DW</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 13:33:53 -0800
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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: [Txauth] Is it a transaction? (was Framework vs Protocol)
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On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:08 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> <snip>
> And in all truth, the answer might be =E2=80=9Csomething else entirely=E2=
=80=9D. We can=E2=80=99t
> solve every problem and use case, and I don=E2=80=99t think it does this =
work any
> favors to over-generalize it at the expense of a set of things we do
> understand. Grounding us like that is one of the reasons that I put the
> =E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D language in the proposed charter text. I =
am proposing that
> we approach not just a certain set of problems but do so in a particular
> way, without necessarily presuming the solution. I think we would all wan=
t
> this new work to be focused on something tractable.
>

I completely agree we don't want to solve every problem and use case, and
we need to scope the problem space in some way.

As I've thought about the term "transaction", it seems to be a misnomer,
particularly when database semantics are applied, where a transaction is
all or nothing.

As I understand it, we would like the client to request scoped access to
multiple resources. Not all of the request is required, which is not
aligned with the definition of transaction above.

Additionally, in the XYZ draft, the transaction handle is used to refresh
tokens. I would consider this a new interaction, as the AS will be running
policy again, and the refresh may be denied.

I don't have a better suggestion at this time, but "transaction" does not
quite seem right.

/Dick
=E1=90=A7

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:08 AM Justin Ric=
her &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflo=
w-wrap: break-word;"><div>&lt;snip&gt;</div><div>And in all truth, the answ=
er might be =E2=80=9Csomething else entirely=E2=80=9D. We can=E2=80=99t sol=
ve every problem and use case, and I don=E2=80=99t think it does this work =
any favors to over-generalize it at the expense of a set of things we do un=
derstand. Grounding us like that is one of the reasons that I put the =E2=
=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D language in the proposed charter text. I am pr=
oposing that we approach not just a certain set of problems but do so in a =
particular way, without necessarily presuming the solution. I think we woul=
d all want this new work to be focused on something tractable.</div></div><=
/blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>I completely agree we don&#39;t want to s=
olve every problem and use case, and we need to scope the problem space in =
some=C2=A0way.</div><div><br></div><div>As I&#39;ve thought about the term =
&quot;transaction&quot;, it seems to be a misnomer, particularly when datab=
ase semantics are applied, where a transaction is all or nothing.=C2=A0</di=
v><div><br></div><div>As I understand it, we would like the client to reque=
st scoped access to multiple=C2=A0resources. Not all of the request is requ=
ired, which is not aligned with the definition of transaction above.=C2=A0<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Additionally, in the XYZ draft, the transaction ha=
ndle is used to refresh tokens. I would consider this a new interaction, as=
 the AS will be running policy again, and the refresh may be denied.=C2=A0<=
/div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t have a better suggestion at this time,=
 but &quot;transaction&quot; does not quite seem right.</div><div><br></div=
><div>/Dick</div></div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-he=
ight:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" =
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2"><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7</font></div>

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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Thread-Topic: [UNVERIFIED SENDER] [Txauth] Framework vs Protocol
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [UNVERIFIED SENDER]  Framework vs Protocol
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I=E2=80=99m definitely in line with that approach. SPA=E2=80=99s are =
arguably much bigger today than they were when the implicit grant =
started, but as a consequence we=E2=80=99ve also got much better tooling =
to manage them. I would recommend that we as a group don=E2=80=99t talk =
about them in terms of =E2=80=9Cthe implicit grant=E2=80=9D but rather =
the aspects of the use cases we=E2=80=99re looking to solve.=20

 -  Justin

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 7:13 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s not about aligning with implicit grant (I agree that =
should not be a goal), it=E2=80=99s about ensuring that the use cases =
being served by implicit grant today can be met by TxAuth or can be =
dismissed as out of scope, and being intentional about any decisions =
toward the latter.
> =20
> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
> =20
> =20
> From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> Date: Monday, January 6, 2020 at 8:09 AM
> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
> Cc: David Waite <david@alkaline-solutions.com>, Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [UNVERIFIED SENDER] [Txauth] Framework vs Protocol
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t think =E2=80=9Calignment with the implicit grant=E2=80=9D=
 should be a goal here. I think addressing the same use cases as the =
implicit grant is good, but for that we=E2=80=99ve got a lot better =
tools today than we did a decade ago, and we don=E2=80=99t need to make =
the same mistakes in new work just for the sake of aligning it. =20
> =20
> The self-issued OP model does a decent enough job of using what tools =
were there at the time to get around OIDC=E2=80=99s limitations, but I =
think there=E2=80=99s a much better approach available to us here.=20
> =20
> And in all truth, the answer might be =E2=80=9Csomething else =
entirely=E2=80=9D. We can=E2=80=99t solve every problem and use case, =
and I don=E2=80=99t think it does this work any favors to =
over-generalize it at the expense of a set of things we do understand. =
Grounding us like that is one of the reasons that I put the =
=E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D language in the proposed charter text. I =
am proposing that we approach not just a certain set of problems but do =
so in a particular way, without necessarily presuming the solution. I =
think we would all want this new work to be focused on something =
tractable.
> =20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>=20
>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> I haven=E2=80=99t seen a detailed analysis of how implicit use cases =
would map onto TxAuth, so while I think you are correct I=E2=80=99m not =
yet confident that the only challenges are migration related, and that =
there aren=E2=80=99t still some important edge cases lurking in the =
implicit space that aren=E2=80=99t well served by the TxAuth approach.
>> =20
>> I generally agree that OIDC self-issued OP is conflating several =
different problems that would be better addressed on an individual =
basis. Though it does demonstrate how TxAuth=E2=80=99s dependency on a =
transaction endpoint reachable by the client favors external identity =
solutions over those under the direct control of the end user.
>> =20
>> =E2=80=93=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> AWS Identity
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: David Waite <david@alkaline-solutions.com =
<mailto:david@alkaline-solutions.com>>
>> Date: Friday, January 3, 2020 at 12:27 AM
>> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>
>> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Dick =
Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>, =
"txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>" <txauth@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: [Txauth] Framework vs Protocol
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Jan 2, 2020, at 5:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>>> The current document seems to do a better job of laying out a core =
message and communication pattern, but it doesn=E2=80=99t align well =
with the implicit grant. We will want to dig into persistent use cases =
for implicit (e.g., Brian Campbell=E2=80=99s use case in this OAuth =
mailing list thread =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/oauth/RucZHKuRf6HCsWUyJDK0XRwub3w>)=
 to see if the TxAuth pattern can serve them, or if there are gaps that =
need to be filled.
>> =20
>> My understanding is that most complications are due to the =
compatibility and migration that comes from the WG recommending against =
front-channel/implicit patterns in the front channel for OAuth 2. I =
don=E2=80=99t think these use cases would have been precluded in a world =
where only code flow had been standardized, and where technologies to =
make code flow viable at initial OAuth 2 standardization had been =
available (such as CORS). Since we now live in that world and are =
talking about an incompatible protocol, I don=E2=80=99t believe these =
sorts of compatibility or migration considerations apply.
>> =20
>> =20
>> The only use case I know of indirectly pushing for implicit is OIDC =
self-issued use case. I would instead describe this as pushing to solve =
several new use cases at once:
>> =20
>> 1. Use of a local (e.g. non-globally reachable) OP
>> 2. Communication when the client and the OP cannot establish direct =
network communication, such as when both exist sandboxed on a local =
device
>> 3. Defining and mandating client and OP security policy to fit into =
the model of the above two points,=20
>> =20
>> I personally don=E2=80=99t think the mechanics self-issued OIDC =
leverages (custom URL redirects and/or localhost listeners) has =
appropriate security or privacy considerations. There are actually zero =
security or privacy considerations regarding self-issued, which I find =
somewhat disappointing.
>> =20
>> I also know that one mobile OS vendor has explicitly recommended =
against developers using custom URL schemes to solve new use cases, =
strongly recommending mechanisms such as claimed HTTPS URLs be used =
instead. This vendor has has also gradually increased the complexity and =
restrictions for custom URL use by application developers. In my =
opinion, there is risk in new use of custom URL schemes for local IPC. =
It is likely not a coincidence that custom URL schemes are chosen as =
they are historically the only cross-platform local IPC mechanism =
without privacy controls, user consent, and and other usability =
restrictions placed upon them.
>> =20
>> It is also worth mentioning that OIDC self-issued does not have =
provisions to gain authorization, which might make it difficult to =
consider it in scope for this group=E2=80=99s charter.
>> =20
>> -DW


--Apple-Mail=_8D6BFA4C-8C7F-46C6-A469-478BFF3A5DF0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=
=99m definitely in line with that approach. SPA=E2=80=99s are arguably =
much bigger today than they were when the implicit grant started, but as =
a consequence we=E2=80=99ve also got much better tooling to manage them. =
I would recommend that we as a group don=E2=80=99t talk about them in =
terms of =E2=80=9Cthe implicit grant=E2=80=9D but rather the aspects of =
the use cases we=E2=80=99re looking to solve.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;- &nbsp;Justin<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 6, 2020, at 7:13 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99=
s not about aligning with implicit grant (I agree that should not be a =
goal), it=E2=80=99s about ensuring that the use cases being served by =
implicit grant today can be met by TxAuth or can be dismissed as out of =
scope, and being intentional about any decisions toward the latter.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">=E2=80=93&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">AWS Identity<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Monday, January 6, 2020 =
at 8:09 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>David=
 Waite &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david@alkaline-solutions.com" =
class=3D"">david@alkaline-solutions.com</a>&gt;, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [UNVERIFIED SENDER] =
[Txauth] Framework vs Protocol<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t think =E2=80=9Calignment with the implicit =
grant=E2=80=9D should be a goal here. I think addressing the same use =
cases as the implicit grant is good, but for that we=E2=80=99ve got a =
lot better tools today than we did a decade ago, and we don=E2=80=99t =
need to make the same mistakes in new work just for the sake of aligning =
it.&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The self-issued OP model does a decent =
enough job of using what tools were there at the time to get around =
OIDC=E2=80=99s limitations, but I think there=E2=80=99s a much better =
approach available to us here.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">And in all truth, the answer might be =E2=80=9Csomething else =
entirely=E2=80=9D. We can=E2=80=99t solve every problem and use case, =
and I don=E2=80=99t think it does this work any favors to =
over-generalize it at the expense of a set of things we do understand. =
Grounding us like that is one of the reasons that I put the =
=E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D language in the proposed charter text. I =
am proposing that we approach not just a certain set of problems but do =
so in a particular way, without necessarily presuming the solution. I =
think we would all want this new work to be focused on something =
tractable.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jan 3, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Richard =
Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I haven=E2=80=99t seen a detailed =
analysis of how implicit use cases would map onto TxAuth, so while I =
think you are correct I=E2=80=99m not yet confident that the only =
challenges are migration related, and that there aren=E2=80=99t still =
some important edge cases lurking in the implicit space that aren=E2=80=99=
t well served by the TxAuth approach.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I generally agree that OIDC self-issued =
OP is conflating several different problems that would be better =
addressed on an individual basis. Though it does demonstrate how =
TxAuth=E2=80=99s dependency on a transaction endpoint reachable by the =
client favors external identity solutions over those under the direct =
control of the end user.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=93&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">AWS =
Identity</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">David Waite &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david@alkaline-solutions.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">david@alkaline-solutions.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Friday, January 3, 2020 =
at 12:27 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;, =
"<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>[UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: =
[Txauth] Framework vs Protocol</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Jan 2, 2020, at 5:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The =
current document seems to do a better job of laying out a core message =
and communication pattern, but it doesn=E2=80=99t align well with the =
implicit grant. We will want to dig into persistent use cases for =
implicit (e.g., Brian Campbell=E2=80=99s use case in<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/oauth/RucZHKuRf6HCsWUyJDK0XR=
wub3w" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">this OAuth mailing =
list thread</span></a>) to see if the TxAuth pattern can serve them, or =
if there are gaps that need to be filled.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">My understanding is that most complications are due to the =
compatibility and migration that comes from the WG recommending against =
front-channel/implicit patterns in the front channel for OAuth 2.&nbsp;I =
don=E2=80=99t think these use cases would have been precluded in a world =
where only code flow had been standardized, and where technologies to =
make code flow viable at initial OAuth 2 standardization had been =
available (such as CORS). Since we now live in that world and are =
talking about an incompatible protocol, I don=E2=80=99t believe these =
sorts of compatibility or migration considerations apply.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The only use case I know of indirectly =
pushing for implicit is OIDC self-issued use case. I would instead =
describe this as pushing to solve several new use cases at once:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">1. Use of a local (e.g. non-globally =
reachable) OP<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">2. Communication when the =
client and the OP cannot establish direct network communication, such as =
when both exist sandboxed on a local device<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">3. Defining and mandating client and OP =
security policy to fit into the model of the above two points,&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I personally don=E2=80=99t think the =
mechanics self-issued OIDC leverages (custom URL redirects and/or =
localhost listeners) has appropriate security or privacy considerations. =
There are actually zero security or privacy considerations regarding =
self-issued, which I find somewhat disappointing.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I also know that one mobile OS vendor =
has explicitly recommended against developers using custom URL schemes =
to solve new use cases, strongly recommending mechanisms such as claimed =
HTTPS URLs be used instead. This vendor has has also gradually increased =
the complexity and restrictions for custom URL use by application =
developers. In my opinion, there is risk in new use of custom URL =
schemes for local IPC. It is likely not a coincidence that custom URL =
schemes are chosen as they are historically the only cross-platform =
local IPC mechanism without privacy controls, user consent, and and =
other usability restrictions placed upon them.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It is also worth mentioning that OIDC =
self-issued does not have provisions to gain authorization, which might =
make it difficult to consider it in scope for this group=E2=80=99s =
charter.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">-DW</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div=
></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Is it a transaction? (was Framework vs Protocol)
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> On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:33 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:08 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> <snip>
> And in all truth, the answer might be =E2=80=9Csomething else =
entirely=E2=80=9D. We can=E2=80=99t solve every problem and use case, =
and I don=E2=80=99t think it does this work any favors to =
over-generalize it at the expense of a set of things we do understand. =
Grounding us like that is one of the reasons that I put the =
=E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D language in the proposed charter text. I =
am proposing that we approach not just a certain set of problems but do =
so in a particular way, without necessarily presuming the solution. I =
think we would all want this new work to be focused on something =
tractable.
> =20
> I completely agree we don't want to solve every problem and use case, =
and we need to scope the problem space in some way.
>=20
> As I've thought about the term "transaction", it seems to be a =
misnomer, particularly when database semantics are applied, where a =
transaction is all or nothing.=20
>=20
> As I understand it, we would like the client to request scoped access =
to multiple resources. Not all of the request is required, which is not =
aligned with the definition of transaction above.=20
>=20
> Additionally, in the XYZ draft, the transaction handle is used to =
refresh tokens. I would consider this a new interaction, as the AS will =
be running policy again, and the refresh may be denied.=20
>=20
> I don't have a better suggestion at this time, but "transaction" does =
not quite seem right.
>=20

As I=E2=80=99ve said before, naming things is hard. I think =
=E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D has many aspects that fit, and some =
connotations that don=E2=80=99t.=20

I stuck to the word =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D because for me it =
captured an aspect that I hadn=E2=80=99t seen reified in this work =
before: that there is an ongoing process between parties who are =
exchanging things, passing information back and forth over time. The RO =
and client both provide information to the AS to modify the request over =
time, and the AS can respond with what it thinks is needed next. So =
it=E2=80=99s like a commercial transaction in some ways: =E2=80=9CI want =
to buy that gum=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cthat=E2=80=99ll be $0.50=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=99s the money=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=99s your =
change=E2=80=9D, etc. It=E2=80=99s a conversation between parties, but a =
specific one in that one party (the client) is trying to get something =
(a token) from another party (the AS). This doesn=E2=80=99t mean that I =
think this only fits financial APIs =E2=80=94 you=E2=80=99ll notice that =
the API didn=E2=80=99t come into the conversation at all here.=20

But in a way the =E2=80=9Ctransactions=E2=80=9D in XYZ are all or =
nothing, in the end. You get a token or you don=E2=80=99t, at the end of =
things. But more importantly, there=E2=80=99s an explicit =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=
=99m starting now=E2=80=9D step with the transaction request, and the =
explicit =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m continuing something that I already =
started=E2=80=9D with the transaction handle. In XYZ, the request =
creates something, what I=E2=80=99m calling a transaction, and that =
ultimately results in something else, what I=E2=80=99m calling a token. =
If something goes amiss, like the user denies the request or the client =
asks for more than it=E2=80=99s allowed to, then the transaction stops. =
The fact that the client doesn=E2=80=99t get everything it asked for =
doesn=E2=80=99t mean the transaction failed, it just means the results =
were modified by something within the process.=20

So it=E2=80=99s not just the database sense, and it=E2=80=99s not just =
the commerce sense either. Neither is a perfect fit, though, I totally =
admit. If we had a better name for it I=E2=80=99d be all for picking =
something that=E2=80=99s more descriptive, but nothing I=E2=80=99ve =
heard or thought of matches the process better than =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=
=80=9D for me.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:33 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:08 AM Justin =
Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">&lt;snip&gt;</div><div =
class=3D"">And in all truth, the answer might be =E2=80=9Csomething else =
entirely=E2=80=9D. We can=E2=80=99t solve every problem and use case, =
and I don=E2=80=99t think it does this work any favors to =
over-generalize it at the expense of a set of things we do understand. =
Grounding us like that is one of the reasons that I put the =
=E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D language in the proposed charter text. I =
am proposing that we approach not just a certain set of problems but do =
so in a particular way, without necessarily presuming the solution. I =
think we would all want this new work to be focused on something =
tractable.</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">I completely agree we don't want to solve every problem and =
use case, and we need to scope the problem space in =
some&nbsp;way.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">As I've thought about the term "transaction", it seems to be =
a misnomer, particularly when database semantics are applied, where a =
transaction is all or nothing.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As I understand it, we would like the =
client to request scoped access to multiple&nbsp;resources. Not all of =
the request is required, which is not aligned with the definition of =
transaction above.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Additionally, in the XYZ draft, the transaction handle is =
used to refresh tokens. I would consider this a new interaction, as the =
AS will be running policy again, and the refresh may be =
denied.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
don't have a better suggestion at this time, but "transaction" does not =
quite seem right.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div>As I=E2=80=99ve said before, naming things is =
hard. I think =E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D has many aspects that fit, =
and some connotations that don=E2=80=99t.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I stuck to the word =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D =
because for me it captured an aspect that I hadn=E2=80=99t seen reified =
in this work before: that there is an ongoing process between parties =
who are exchanging things, passing information back and forth over time. =
The RO and client both provide information to the AS to modify the =
request over time, and the AS can respond with what it thinks is needed =
next. So it=E2=80=99s like a commercial transaction in some ways: =E2=80=9C=
I want to buy that gum=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cthat=E2=80=99ll be $0.50=E2=80=9D=
, =E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=99s the money=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=99s =
your change=E2=80=9D, etc. It=E2=80=99s a conversation between parties, =
but a specific one in that one party (the client) is trying to get =
something (a token) from another party (the AS). This doesn=E2=80=99t =
mean that I think this only fits financial APIs =E2=80=94 you=E2=80=99ll =
notice that the API didn=E2=80=99t come into the conversation at all =
here.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>But in a way the =
=E2=80=9Ctransactions=E2=80=9D in XYZ are all or nothing, in the end. =
You get a token or you don=E2=80=99t, at the end of things. But more =
importantly, there=E2=80=99s an explicit =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m starting =
now=E2=80=9D step with the transaction request, and the explicit =
=E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m continuing something that I already started=E2=80=9D =
with the transaction handle. In XYZ, the request creates something, what =
I=E2=80=99m calling a transaction, and that ultimately results in =
something else, what I=E2=80=99m calling a token. If something goes =
amiss, like the user denies the request or the client asks for more than =
it=E2=80=99s allowed to, then the transaction stops. The fact that the =
client doesn=E2=80=99t get everything it asked for doesn=E2=80=99t mean =
the transaction failed, it just means the results were modified by =
something within the process.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>So=
 it=E2=80=99s not just the database sense, and it=E2=80=99s not just the =
commerce sense either. Neither is a perfect fit, though, I totally =
admit. If we had a better name for it I=E2=80=99d be all for picking =
something that=E2=80=99s more descriptive, but nothing I=E2=80=99ve =
heard or thought of matches the process better than =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=
=80=9D for me.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 =
Justin</div></div></body></html>=

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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
CC: David Waite <david@alkaline-solutions.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [UNVERIFIED SENDER] [Txauth] Framework vs Protocol
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From: Aaron Parecki <aaron@parecki.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 12:39:14 -0600
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Cc: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, David Waite <david@alkaline-solutions.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Is it a transaction? (was Framework vs Protocol)
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This is a very good description of the motivation for using the term,
and it would be great to include this description in the abstract or
elsewhere in the spec!

----
Aaron Parecki
aaronparecki.com


On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 12:24 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:33 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:08 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> And in all truth, the answer might be =E2=80=9Csomething else entirely=
=E2=80=9D. We can=E2=80=99t solve every problem and use case, and I don=E2=
=80=99t think it does this work any favors to over-generalize it at the exp=
ense of a set of things we do understand. Grounding us like that is one of =
the reasons that I put the =E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D language in the =
proposed charter text. I am proposing that we approach not just a certain s=
et of problems but do so in a particular way, without necessarily presuming=
 the solution. I think we would all want this new work to be focused on som=
ething tractable.
>
>
> I completely agree we don't want to solve every problem and use case, and=
 we need to scope the problem space in some way.
>
> As I've thought about the term "transaction", it seems to be a misnomer, =
particularly when database semantics are applied, where a transaction is al=
l or nothing.
>
> As I understand it, we would like the client to request scoped access to =
multiple resources. Not all of the request is required, which is not aligne=
d with the definition of transaction above.
>
> Additionally, in the XYZ draft, the transaction handle is used to refresh=
 tokens. I would consider this a new interaction, as the AS will be running=
 policy again, and the refresh may be denied.
>
> I don't have a better suggestion at this time, but "transaction" does not=
 quite seem right.
>
>
> As I=E2=80=99ve said before, naming things is hard. I think =E2=80=9Ctran=
sactional=E2=80=9D has many aspects that fit, and some connotations that do=
n=E2=80=99t.
>
> I stuck to the word =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D because for me it captu=
red an aspect that I hadn=E2=80=99t seen reified in this work before: that =
there is an ongoing process between parties who are exchanging things, pass=
ing information back and forth over time. The RO and client both provide in=
formation to the AS to modify the request over time, and the AS can respond=
 with what it thinks is needed next. So it=E2=80=99s like a commercial tran=
saction in some ways: =E2=80=9CI want to buy that gum=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cth=
at=E2=80=99ll be $0.50=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=99s the money=E2=80=9D=
, =E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=99s your change=E2=80=9D, etc. It=E2=80=99s a convers=
ation between parties, but a specific one in that one party (the client) is=
 trying to get something (a token) from another party (the AS). This doesn=
=E2=80=99t mean that I think this only fits financial APIs =E2=80=94 you=E2=
=80=99ll notice that the API didn=E2=80=99t come into the conversation at a=
ll here.
>
> But in a way the =E2=80=9Ctransactions=E2=80=9D in XYZ are all or nothing=
, in the end. You get a token or you don=E2=80=99t, at the end of things. B=
ut more importantly, there=E2=80=99s an explicit =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m start=
ing now=E2=80=9D step with the transaction request, and the explicit =E2=80=
=9CI=E2=80=99m continuing something that I already started=E2=80=9D with th=
e transaction handle. In XYZ, the request creates something, what I=E2=80=
=99m calling a transaction, and that ultimately results in something else, =
what I=E2=80=99m calling a token. If something goes amiss, like the user de=
nies the request or the client asks for more than it=E2=80=99s allowed to, =
then the transaction stops. The fact that the client doesn=E2=80=99t get ev=
erything it asked for doesn=E2=80=99t mean the transaction failed, it just =
means the results were modified by something within the process.
>
> So it=E2=80=99s not just the database sense, and it=E2=80=99s not just th=
e commerce sense either. Neither is a perfect fit, though, I totally admit.=
 If we had a better name for it I=E2=80=99d be all for picking something th=
at=E2=80=99s more descriptive, but nothing I=E2=80=99ve heard or thought of=
 matches the process better than =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D for me.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


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From: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 16:26:34 -0700
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To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>,  "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Framework vs Protocol
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On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 5:18 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=3D
40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> The current document seems to do a better job of laying out a core messag=
e
> and communication pattern, but it doesn=E2=80=99t align well with the imp=
licit
> grant. We will want to dig into persistent use cases for implicit (e.g.,
> Brian Campbell=E2=80=99s use case in this OAuth mailing list thread
> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/oauth/RucZHKuRf6HCsWUyJDK0XRwub3w>=
)
> to see if the TxAuth pattern can serve them, or if there are gaps that ne=
ed
> to be filled.
>

I guess takeaway I'd point to from that is less about the implicit grant
per se and more to suggest/remind that this space has had variations on
front channel pass everything by value and pass by reference in the front
channel with backchannel resolution approaches and swings between
preferences for one or the other for a long time. The approach in XZY leans
heavily towards the latter but both have their benefits and drawbacks.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 5:18 PM Richard Ba=
ckman, Annabelle &lt;richanna=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The current document seems to do a better job of lay=
ing out a core message and communication pattern, but it doesn=E2=80=99t al=
ign well with the implicit grant. We will want to dig into persistent use c=
ases for implicit (e.g., Brian Campbell=E2=80=99s
 use case in <a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/oauth/RucZHKu=
Rf6HCsWUyJDK0XRwub3w" target=3D"_blank">
this OAuth mailing list thread</a>) to see if the TxAuth pattern can serve =
them, or if there are gaps that need to be filled.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I guess takeaway I&#39;d point=
 to from that is less about the implicit grant per se and more to suggest/r=
emind that this space has had variations on front channel pass everything b=
y value and pass by reference in the front channel with backchannel resolut=
ion approaches and swings between preferences for one or the other for a lo=
ng time. The approach in XZY leans heavily towards the latter but both have=
 their benefits and drawbacks.</div></div></div>

<br>
<i style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;vertical-align:ba=
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><font size=3D"2">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidenti=
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:04:49 -0800
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To: txauth@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/2TQoEQB9XRpaGb3L_eHpNIoAx8U>
Subject: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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Hey

I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the
feedback on Justin's charter.

I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of
ideas.

Key ideas:

- This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.

- The client interacts directly with the authorization server.

/Dick

----

This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization
protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. In
contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiated
by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization server, this protocol
will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorization
server.

Additionally, the protocol will allow:
- fine-grained specification of resource access
- the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to multiple
resources in one interaction
- web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
- taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3

The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
flexibility in areas including:

- discovery of the authorization server
- cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
possession
- user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token
presentation mechanisms and key bindings

Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be
backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt to
simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse
existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access
tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.

While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between
the client and the authorization server, the working group will strive to
enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.


=E1=90=A7

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hey<div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve written an alternative cha=
rter that I hope captures some of the feedback on Justin&#39;s charter.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden t=
he marketplace of ideas.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Key ideas:</div><di=
v><br></div><div>- This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connec=
t use cases.</div><div><br></div><div>- The client interacts directly with =
the authorization server.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><b=
r></div><div>----<br><div><br></div><div>This group is chartered to develop=
 a delegated identity and authorization protocol. The use cases supported b=
y this protocol will include widely deployed use cases currently supported =
by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Conne=
ct, where the protocol is initiated by redirecting the user&#39;s browser t=
o an authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client di=
rectly interacting with the authorization server.</div><div><br>Additionall=
y, the protocol will allow:</div><div>- fine-grained specification of resou=
rce access</div><div>- the user to approve requests for identity claims and=
 access to multiple resources in one interaction</div><div>- web, mobile, s=
ingle-page, and other client applications</div><div>- taking advantage of o=
ptimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3</div><div><br>The group will define=
 extension points for this protocol to allow for flexibility in areas inclu=
ding:</div><div><br>- discovery of the authorization server</div><div>- cry=
ptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of possession=C2=
=A0</div><div>- user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web metho=
ds- token presentation mechanisms and key bindings</div><div><br>Although t=
he artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be backwards-com=
patible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt to simplify por=
ting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse existing semant=
ics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access tokens, and Ope=
nID Connect ID Tokens and claims.</div><div><br>While the initial work will=
 focus on using HTTP for communication between the client and the authoriza=
tion server, the working group will strive to enable simple mapping to othe=
r protocols such as COAP.<br><div><br></div><div><br class=3D"gmail-Apple-i=
nterchange-newline"></div></div></div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" =
style=3D"max-height:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;ov=
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bd2-c029965821fb"><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7</font></div>

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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on =
everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, =
so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, =
incorporating some of your points below:

This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, =
authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing =
party to delegate access to client software through an authorization =
server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely =
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.=20=


The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be =
initiated by the client interacting directly with the authorization =
server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client =
redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the =
authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated =
by the protocol.=20

Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:

- Fine-grained specification of resource access
- Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
- Delegation between multiple users
- Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications

The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:

- Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
- User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
- Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
- Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings

Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the =
protocol lifecycle including:

- Discovery of the authorization server
- Revocation of active tokens
- Query of token rights by resource servers

Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be =
backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new =
protocol where possible.

While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and =
will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.

> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hey
>=20
> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the =
feedback on Justin's charter.
>=20
> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of =
ideas.=20
>=20
> Key ideas:
>=20
> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.
>=20
> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=20
>=20
> /Dick
>=20
> ----
>=20
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the =
protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server.
>=20
> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
> - fine-grained specification of resource access
> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to =
multiple resources in one interaction
> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>=20
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:
>=20
> - discovery of the authorization server
> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token =
presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>=20
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and =
strive to reuse existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 =
scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>=20
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>=20
>=20
> =E1=90=A7
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


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charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter =
based on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today =
anyway, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new =
charter, incorporating some of your points below:<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">This group is chartered to =
develop a delegation protocol for identity, authorization, and API =
access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access =
to client software through an authorization server. The use cases =
supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases =
currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The delegation process =
will be acted upon by multiple parties in the protocol, each performing =
a specific role. The protocol will be initiated by the client =
interacting directly with the authorization server (in contrast with =
OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s =
browser). The client will involve the authorizing party as necessary =
through interaction mechanisms indicated by the =
protocol.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Additionally, the delegation process will allow =
for:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- =
Fine-grained specification of resource access</div><div class=3D"">- =
Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction</div><div class=3D"">- Delegation between multiple =
users</div><div class=3D"">- Web, mobile, single-page, and other types =
of client applications</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The group will define extension points for this protocol to =
allow for flexibility in areas including:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Cryptographic agility for keys, =
message signatures, and proof of possession&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">- =
User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods</div><div =
class=3D"">- Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and =
other pieces of information used in authorization decisions</div><div =
class=3D"">- Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Additionally, the group =
will provide mechanisms for management of the protocol lifecycle =
including:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- =
Discovery of the authorization server</div><div class=3D"">- Revocation =
of active tokens</div><div class=3D"">- Query of token rights by =
resource servers</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or =
expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, =
the group will&nbsp;attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for =
communication between the client and the authorization server, the =
working group will seek to take advantage of optimization features of =
HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to&nbsp;enable simple mapping to other =
protocols such as COAP.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, =
Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hey<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I've written an alternative charter =
that I hope captures some of the feedback on Justin's charter.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I found it easier to =
rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of ideas.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Key ideas:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- This work supports =
existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- The client interacts directly with =
the authorization server.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">/Dick</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">----<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This group is chartered to develop a =
delegated identity and authorization protocol. The use cases supported =
by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases currently =
supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiated by redirecting the =
user's browser to an authorization server, this protocol will be =
initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorization =
server.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">Additionally, the protocol =
will allow:</div><div class=3D"">- fine-grained specification of =
resource access</div><div class=3D"">- the user to approve requests for =
identity claims and access to multiple resources in one =
interaction</div><div class=3D"">- web, mobile, single-page, and other =
client applications</div><div class=3D"">- taking advantage of =
optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The group will define extension points for this protocol to =
allow for flexibility in areas including:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">- discovery of the authorization server</div><div class=3D"">- =
cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">- user interaction mechanisms =
including web and non-web methods- token presentation mechanisms and key =
bindings</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">Although the artifacts for =
this work are not intended or expected to be backwards-compatible with =
OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt to simplify porting from =
OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse existing semantics =
such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access tokens, and =
OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for =
communication between the client and the authorization server, the =
working group will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols =
such as COAP.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div></div></div><div =
hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px" class=3D""><img =
alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D4100f11c-15ca-4d45-bbd2-c02996582=
1fb" class=3D""><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1" =
class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</font></div>
-- <br class=3D"">Txauth mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 18:56:15 -0800
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This looks even better! Thanks Justin.

What do others think of the proposed charter now?
=E1=90=A7

On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on ev=
eryone=E2=80=99s
> feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, so this timing is
> helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, incorporating some o=
f your
> points below:
>
> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity,
> authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing
> party to delegate access to client software through an authorization
> server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.
>
> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the
> protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiated
> by the client interacting directly with the authorization server (in
> contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the
> user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the authorizing party as=
 necessary
> through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.
>
> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>
> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single
> interaction
> - Delegation between multiple users
> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
>
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
> flexibility in areas including:
>
> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
> possession
> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pieces
> of information used in authorization decisions
> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>
> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the
> protocol lifecycle including:
>
> - Discovery of the authorization server
> - Revocation of active tokens
> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be
> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group
> will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the
> new protocol where possible.
>
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between
> the client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to
> take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will stri=
ve
> to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>
> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hey
>
> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the
> feedback on Justin's charter.
>
> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of
> ideas.
>
> Key ideas:
>
> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.
>
> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.
>
> /Dick
>
> ----
>
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization
> protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. =
In
> contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiated
> by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization server, this protoc=
ol
> will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorizati=
on
> server.
>
> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
> - fine-grained specification of resource access
> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to multiple
> resources in one interaction
> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
> flexibility in areas including:
>
> - discovery of the authorization server
> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
> possession
> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token
> presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be
> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt =
to
> simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse
> existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and acces=
s
> tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between
> the client and the authorization server, the working group will strive to
> enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>
>
> =E1=90=A7
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
>

--0000000000006adda7059bd46345
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">This looks even better! Thanks Justin.<div><br></div><div>=
What do others think of the proposed charter now?=C2=A0</div></div><div hsp=
ace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D"widt=
h:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com=
/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=
=3Dc2542a73-9b36-42f1-b091-b07ceade18ee"><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1"=
>=E1=90=A7</font></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas=
s=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: bre=
ak-word;">Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter bas=
ed on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anywa=
y, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, i=
ncorporating some of your points below:<div><br></div><blockquote style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div>This group is charter=
ed to develop a delegation protocol for identity, authorization, and API ac=
cess. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access to c=
lient software through an authorization server. The use cases supported by =
this protocol will include widely deployed use cases currently supported by=
 OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The delegatio=
n process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the protocol, each perf=
orming a specific role. The protocol will be initiated by the client intera=
cting directly with the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2 whic=
h is initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The c=
lient will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interaction m=
echanisms indicated by the protocol.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Additio=
nally, the delegation process will allow for:</div><div><br></div><div>- Fi=
ne-grained specification of resource access</div><div>- Approval of identit=
y claims and multiple resources in a single interaction</div><div>- Delegat=
ion between multiple users</div><div>- Web, mobile, single-page, and other =
types of client applications</div><div><br></div><div>The group will define=
 extension points for this protocol to allow for flexibility in areas inclu=
ding:</div><div><br></div><div>- Cryptographic agility for keys, message si=
gnatures, and proof of possession=C2=A0</div><div>- User interaction mechan=
isms including web and non-web methods</div><div>- Mechanisms for providing=
 user, software, organization, and other pieces of information used in auth=
orization decisions</div><div>- Token presentation mechanisms and key bindi=
ngs</div><div><br></div><div>Additionally, the group will provide mechanism=
s for management of the protocol lifecycle including:</div><div><br></div><=
div>- Discovery of the authorization server</div><div>- Revocation of activ=
e tokens</div><div>- Query of token rights by resource servers</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expec=
ted to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group =
will=C2=A0attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to =
the new protocol where possible.<br><br>While the initial work will focus o=
n using HTTP for communication between the client and the authorization ser=
ver, the working group will seek to take advantage of optimization features=
 of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to=C2=A0enable simple mapping to other=
 protocols such as COAP.</div><div><br></div></blockquote><div><div><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hey<div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve=
 written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the feedback o=
n Justin&#39;s charter.</div><div><br></div><div>I found it easier to rewri=
te the charter to broaden the marketplace of ideas.=C2=A0</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Key ideas:</div><div><br></div><div>- This work supports existing O=
Auth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.</div><div><br></div><div>- The clie=
nt interacts directly with the authorization server.=C2=A0</div><div><br></=
div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div><div>----<br><div><br></div><div>This gr=
oup is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization protocol=
. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use=
 cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. In contrast to=
 OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiated by redirecti=
ng the user&#39;s browser to an authorization server, this protocol will be=
 initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorization server=
.</div><div><br>Additionally, the protocol will allow:</div><div>- fine-gra=
ined specification of resource access</div><div>- the user to approve reque=
sts for identity claims and access to multiple resources in one interaction=
</div><div>- web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications</div><=
div>- taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3</div><di=
v><br>The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for=
 flexibility in areas including:</div><div><br>- discovery of the authoriza=
tion server</div><div>- cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures,=
 and proof of possession=C2=A0</div><div>- user interaction mechanisms incl=
uding web and non-web methods- token presentation mechanisms and key bindin=
gs</div><div><br>Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or e=
xpected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they w=
ill attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and stri=
ve to reuse existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes=
 and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.</div><div><br>=
While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between t=
he client and the authorization server, the working group will strive to en=
able simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<br><div><br></div><div=
><br></div></div></div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-he=
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From: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@hopebailie.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 09:11:10 +0200
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, txauth@ietf.org
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+1

On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 04:56 Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
>
> What do others think of the proposed charter now?
> =E1=90=A7
>
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on e=
veryone=E2=80=99s
>> feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, so this timing is
>> helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, incorporating some =
of your
>> points below:
>>
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity,
>> authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing
>> party to delegate access to client software through an authorization
>> server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
>> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.
>>
>> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the
>> protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiate=
d
>> by the client interacting directly with the authorization server (in
>> contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the
>> user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the authorizing party a=
s necessary
>> through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.
>>
>> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>>
>> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single
>> interaction
>> - Delegation between multiple users
>> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
>>
>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
>> flexibility in areas including:
>>
>> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
>> possession
>> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other piece=
s
>> of information used in authorization decisions
>> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>
>> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the
>> protocol lifecycle including:
>>
>> - Discovery of the authorization server
>> - Revocation of active tokens
>> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>>
>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be
>> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group
>> will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to th=
e
>> new protocol where possible.
>>
>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication betwee=
n
>> the client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to
>> take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will str=
ive
>> to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>
>> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hey
>>
>> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the
>> feedback on Justin's charter.
>>
>> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of
>> ideas.
>>
>> Key ideas:
>>
>> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.
>>
>> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>> ----
>>
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorizatio=
n
>> protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
>> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect.=
 In
>> contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiate=
d
>> by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization server, this proto=
col
>> will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorizat=
ion
>> server..
>>
>>
>> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
>> - fine-grained specification of resource access
>> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to multipl=
e
>> resources in one interaction
>> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
>> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>>
>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
>> flexibility in areas including:
>>
>> - discovery of the authorization server
>> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
>> possession
>> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token
>> presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>
>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be
>> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt=
 to
>> simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse
>> existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and acce=
ss
>> tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>>
>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication betwee=
n
>> the client and the authorization server, the working group will strive t=
o
>> enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>
>>
>> =E1=90=A7
>> --
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>
>>
>> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
--=20
Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any typos

--0000000000000d6be9059bd7f3d4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><div dir=3D"auto">+1</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><div><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 11,=
 2020 at 04:56 Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com">dick.=
hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:so=
lid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir=3D"ltr">T=
his looks even better! Thanks Justin.<div><br></div><div>What do others thi=
nk of the proposed charter now?=C2=A0</div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-m=
ark" style=3D"max-height:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D"width: 0px; max-height=
: 0px; overflow: hidden;" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3D=
aZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3Dc2542a73-=
9b36-42f1-b091-b07ceade18ee"><font size=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,25=
5)">=E1=90=A7</font></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 10, 2020=
 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D=
"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-=
color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-c=
olor:rgb(204,204,204)"><div>Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an u=
pdated charter based on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to ha=
ve out today anyway, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take o=
n a new charter, incorporating some of your points below:<div><br></div><bl=
ockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div>Thi=
s group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, authori=
zation, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to de=
legate access to client software through an authorization server. The use c=
ases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases curr=
ently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div>=
<div>The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the p=
rotocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiated by=
 the client interacting directly with the authorization server (in contrast=
 with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=
=99s browser). The client will involve the authorizing party as necessary t=
hrough interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.=C2=A0</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:</div><div=
><br></div><div>- Fine-grained specification of resource access</div><div>-=
 Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single interaction=
</div><div>- Delegation between multiple users</div><div>- Web, mobile, sin=
gle-page, and other types of client applications</div><div><br></div><div>T=
he group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexib=
ility in areas including:</div><div><br></div><div>- Cryptographic agility =
for keys, message signatures, and proof of possession=C2=A0</div><div>- Use=
r interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods</div><div>- Mech=
anisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pieces of info=
rmation used in authorization decisions</div><div>- Token presentation mech=
anisms and key bindings</div><div><br></div><div>Additionally, the group wi=
ll provide mechanisms for management of the protocol lifecycle including:</=
div><div><br></div><div>- Discovery of the authorization server</div><div>-=
 Revocation of active tokens</div><div>- Query of token rights by resource =
servers</div><div><br></div><div>Although the artifacts for this work are n=
ot intended or expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID=
 Connect, the group will=C2=A0attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 an=
d OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible.<br><br>While the initi=
al work will focus on using HTTP for communication between the client and t=
he authorization server, the working group will seek to take advantage of o=
ptimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to=C2=A0enable sim=
ple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.</div><div><br></div></blockquo=
te></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;borde=
r-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><di=
v><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"></blockquote></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:so=
lid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><div><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-=
left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><div><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div=
></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-s=
tyle:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hey<div><br></div><div>=
I&#39;ve written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the fe=
edback on Justin&#39;s charter.</div><div><br></div><div>I found it easier =
to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of ideas.=C2=A0</div><div=
><br></div><div>Key ideas:</div><div><br></div><div>- This work supports ex=
isting OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.</div><div><br></div><div>- =
The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=C2=A0</div><di=
v><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><=
/div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">=
<div><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>----<br=
><div><br></div><div>This group is chartered to develop a delegated identit=
y and authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol wil=
l include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and O=
penID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the proto=
col is initiated by redirecting the user&#39;s browser to an authorization =
server, this protocol will be initiated by the client directly interacting =
with the authorization server..</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><=
/div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">=
<div><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><b=
r>Additionally, the protocol will allow:</div><div>- fine-grained specifica=
tion of resource access</div><div>- the user to approve requests for identi=
ty claims and access to multiple resources in one interaction</div><div>- w=
eb, mobile, single-page, and other client applications</div><div>- taking a=
dvantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3</div><div><br>The grou=
p will define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexibility i=
n areas including:</div><div><br>- discovery of the authorization server</d=
iv><div>- cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=C2=A0</div><div>- user interaction mechanisms including web and =
non-web methods- token presentation mechanisms and key bindings</div><div><=
br>Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be =
backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt to=
 simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse ex=
isting semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access to=
kens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.</div><div><br>While the init=
ial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between the client and =
the authorization server, the working group will strive to enable simple ma=
pping to other protocols such as COAP.<br><div><br></div><div><br></div></d=
iv></div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px"><img=
 alt=3D"" style=3D"width: 0px; max-height: 0px; overflow: hidden;" src=3D"h=
ttps://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&am=
p;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D4100f11c-15ca-4d45-bbd2-c029965821fb"><font=
 size=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,255)">=E1=90=A7</font></div>
-- <br>Txauth mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/txauth" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth=
</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div>
-- <br>
Txauth mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Sent from a mobile device, please excuse=
 any typos</div>

--0000000000000d6be9059bd7f3d4--


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Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 23:08:15 +0200
From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@hopebailie.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
CC: <txauth@ietf.org>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <734FDFDE-59C4-41CA-AFE0-3F8204B24C8F@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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Same here.

=20

From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Adrian Hope-Bailie <adr=
ian@hopebailie.com>
Date: Saturday, January 11, 2020 at 09:11
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Cc: <txauth@ietf.org>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup

=20

+1

=20

On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 04:56 Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

This looks even better! Thanks Justin.

=20

What do others think of the proposed charter now?=20

=E1=90=A7

=20

On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on everyone=E2=80=
=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, so this timing is he=
lpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, incorporating some of your poin=
ts below:

=20

This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, auth=
orization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to =
delegate access to client software through an authorization server. The use =
cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases curr=
ently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.=20

=20

The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the protoc=
ol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiated by the c=
lient interacting directly with the authorization server (in contrast with O=
Auth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). T=
he client will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interactio=
n mechanisms indicated by the protocol.=20

=20

Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:

=20

- Fine-grained specification of resource access

- Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single interactio=
n

- Delegation between multiple users

- Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications

=20

The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexi=
bility in areas including:

=20

- Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of possessi=
on=20

- User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods

- Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pieces o=
f information used in authorization decisions

- Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings

=20

Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the proto=
col lifecycle including:

=20

- Discovery of the authorization server

- Revocation of active tokens

- Query of token rights by resource servers

=20

Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be bac=
kwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will attempt t=
o simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol whe=
re possible.

While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between t=
he client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to take =
advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to en=
able simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.

=20

On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

=20

Hey

=20

I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the feedba=
ck on Justin's charter.

=20

I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of idea=
s.=20

=20

Key ideas:

=20

- This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.

=20

- The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=20

=20

/Dick

=20

----

=20

This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization p=
rotocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deplo=
yed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. In contr=
ast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiated by redi=
recting the user's browser to an authorization server, this protocol will be=
 initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorization server.=
.


Additionally, the protocol will allow:

- fine-grained specification of resource access

- the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to multiple r=
esources in one interaction

- web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications

- taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3


The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexi=
bility in areas including:


- discovery of the authorization server

- cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of possessi=
on=20

- user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token pres=
entation mechanisms and key bindings


Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be bac=
kwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt to sim=
plify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse existin=
g semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access tokens, =
and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.


While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between t=
he client and the authorization server, the working group will strive to ena=
ble simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.

=20

=20

=E1=90=A7

--=20
Txauth mailing list
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

=20

--=20
Txauth mailing list
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

--=20

Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any typos

-- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/txauth=20


--B_3661628895_183676716
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dp=
urple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Same here.<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:sol=
id #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.=
0pt;color:black'>Txauth &lt;txauth-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Adrian =
Hope-Bailie &lt;adrian@hopebailie.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Saturday, January =
11, 2020 at 09:11<br><b>To: </b>Dick Hardt &lt;dick.hardt@gmail.com&gt;<br><=
b>Cc: </b>&lt;txauth@ietf.org&gt;, Justin Richer &lt;jricher@mit.edu&gt;<br>=
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<o:p></o:p></span></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal>+1<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 04=
:56 Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com">dick.hardt@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-l=
eft:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-r=
ight:0in'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>This looks even better! Thanks Justin.<o:p=
></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal>What do others think of the proposed charter now?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'border:solid windowtext=
 1.0pt;padding:0in'><img border=3D0 width=3D32 height=3D32 style=3D'width:.3333in;he=
ight:.3333in' id=3D"_x0000_i1026" src=3D"cid:~WRD0002.jpg" alt=3D"Image removed by=
 sender."></span><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Euphemia UCAS",sa=
ns-serif;color:white'>=E1=90=A7</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 =
PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jriche=
r@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D'b=
order:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-=
left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve be=
en working on an updated charter based on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was a=
iming to have out today anyway, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my ta=
ke on a new charter, incorporating some of your points below:<o:p></o:p></p>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'margin=
-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>This group is charter=
ed to develop a delegation protocol for identity, authorization, and API acc=
ess. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access to cli=
ent software through an authorization server. The use cases supported by thi=
s protocol will include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAu=
th 2.0 and OpenID Connect.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The delegation process w=
ill be acted upon by multiple parties in the protocol, each performing a spe=
cific role. The protocol will be initiated by the client interacting directl=
y with the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated=
 by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve th=
e authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated by=
 the protocol.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Additionally, the delegation process=
 will allow for:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- Fine-grained specification of resource=
 access<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- Approval of identity c=
laims and multiple resources in a single interaction<o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal>- Delegation between multiple users<o:p></o:p></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of clie=
nt applications<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The group will define extension points fo=
r this protocol to allow for flexibility in areas including:<o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal>- Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of posse=
ssion&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- User interaction m=
echanisms including web and non-web methods<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal>- Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and oth=
er pieces of information used in authorization decisions<o:p></o:p></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for managem=
ent of the protocol lifecycle including:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- Discovery of t=
he authorization server<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- Revoca=
tion of active tokens<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- Query of=
 token rights by resource servers<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Although the artifacts =
for this work are not intended or expected to be backwards-compatible with O=
Auth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will&nbsp;attempt to simplify porting =
from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible.<br><br=
>While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between t=
he client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to take =
advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to&nb=
sp;enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<o:p></o:p></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></bl=
ockquote></div><div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC=
 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><d=
iv><div><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal>On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:di=
ck.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></blockquote></div><=
/div></div></blockquote></div><div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-lef=
t:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-rig=
ht:0in'><div><div><div><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0=
pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hey<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I've written an alternativ=
e charter that I hope captures some of the feedback on Justin's charter.<o:p=
></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the mark=
etplace of ideas.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Key ideas:<o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- T=
his work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.<o:p></o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>- The client interacts directly with the authorization server.&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>/Dick<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div><div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0p=
t;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><d=
iv><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal>----<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>This group is chartered to develop a del=
egated identity and authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this=
 protocol will include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAut=
h 2.0, and OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, wher=
e the protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an authoriz=
ation server, this protocol will be initiated by the client directly interac=
ting with the authorization server..<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><=
/blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><blockquote style=3D'bor=
der:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-le=
ft:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0p=
t;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Additional=
ly, the protocol will allow:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- f=
ine-grained specification of resource access<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal>- the user to approve requests for identity claims and access t=
o multiple resources in one interaction<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal>- web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications<o:p></o:p>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- taking advantage of optimization feature=
s in HTTP2 and HTTP3<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>The gro=
up will define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexibility i=
n areas including:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>- discove=
ry of the authorization server<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-=
 cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of possession=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- user interaction mechan=
isms including web and non-web methods- token presentation mechanisms and ke=
y bindings<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Although the arti=
facts for this work are not intended or expected to be backwards-compatible =
with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt to simplify porting from=
 OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse existing semantics such a=
s client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect=
 ID Tokens and claims.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>While=
 the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between the cli=
ent and the authorization server, the working group will strive to enable si=
mple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'border:soli=
d windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in'><img border=3D0 width=3D32 height=3D32 style=3D'widt=
h:.3333in;height:.3333in' id=3D"_x0000_i1025" src=3D"cid:~WRD0002.jpg" alt=3D"Imag=
e removed by sender."></span><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Euphe=
mia UCAS",sans-serif;color:white'>=E1=90=A7</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal>-- <br>Txauth mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/txauth" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a=
><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- <br>Txauth mailing=
 list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a=
><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote>=
</div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sen=
t from a mobile device, please excuse any typos<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>-- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/txauth <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>

--B_3661628895_183676716--



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From: Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>
To: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@hopebailie.com>
CC: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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I think it should be I struggled on how to capture that. The key element =
here is that there=E2=80=99s one device doing the request and another =
doing the interaction. This pattern is also used in CIBA and some UMA =
style flows, so it=E2=80=99s not just about the nature of the client but =
also about the nature of the users involved.=20

So for now that=E2=80=99s firmly in =E2=80=9Cand other=E2=80=9D but =
I=E2=80=99m open to suggestion!

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 13, 2020, at 2:59 AM, Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> "Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications"
> =20
> Should device (as in device flow) be explicitly mentioned here?
> =20
> From: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@hopebailie.com>=20
> Sent: Samstag, 11. Januar 2020 08:11
> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; txauth@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
> =20
> +1
> =20
> On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 04:56 Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
> =20
> What do others think of the proposed charter now?=20
> =E1=90=A7
> =20
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on =
everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, =
so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, =
incorporating some of your points below:
> =20
> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, =
authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing =
party to delegate access to client software through an authorization =
server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely =
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.=20=

> =20
> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be =
initiated by the client interacting directly with the authorization =
server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client =
redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the =
authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated =
by the protocol.=20
> =20
> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
> =20
> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
> - Delegation between multiple users
> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
> =20
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:
> =20
> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
> =20
> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the =
protocol lifecycle including:
> =20
> - Discovery of the authorization server
> - Revocation of active tokens
> - Query of token rights by resource servers
> =20
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new =
protocol where possible.
>=20
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and =
will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
> =20
> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Hey
> =20
> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the =
feedback on Justin's charter.
> =20
> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of =
ideas.=20
> =20
> Key ideas:
> =20
> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.
> =20
> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=20
> =20
> /Dick
> =20
> ----
> =20
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the =
protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server..
>=20
> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
> - fine-grained specification of resource access
> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to =
multiple resources in one interaction
> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>=20
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:
>=20
> - discovery of the authorization server
> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token =
presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>=20
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and =
strive to reuse existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 =
scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>=20
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
> =20
> =20
> =E1=90=A7
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>
> =20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>
> --=20
> Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any typos
>=20
> This e-mail, including attachments, is intended for the person(s) or =
company named and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged =
information.
> Unauthorized disclosure, copying or use of this information may be =
unlawful and is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, =
please delete this message and notify the sender.
> All incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are stored in the Swiss Re =
Electronic Message Repository.
> If you do not wish the retention of potentially private e-mails by =
Swiss Re, we strongly advise you not to use the Swiss Re e-mail account =
for any private, non-business related communications. --=20
> Txauth mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
think it should be I struggled on how to capture that. The key element =
here is that there=E2=80=99s one device doing the request and another =
doing the interaction. This pattern is also used in CIBA and some UMA =
style flows, so it=E2=80=99s not just about the nature of the client but =
also about the nature of the users involved.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So for now that=E2=80=99s firmly in =
=E2=80=9Cand other=E2=80=9D but I=E2=80=99m open to suggestion!<br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=
=94 Justin<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 13, 2020, at 2:59 AM, Lee McGovern =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Lee_McGovern@swissre.com" =
class=3D"">Lee_McGovern@swissre.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">"</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D"">Web, =
mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications"<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D"">Should =
device (as in device flow) be explicitly mentioned here?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Adrian Hope-Bailie &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@hopebailie.com" =
class=3D"">adrian@hopebailie.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Samstag, 11. Januar 2020 =
08:11<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Txauth] alternative =
charter writeup<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 04:56 Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:=
 none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This looks even better! Thanks Justin.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">What do others think of the proposed =
charter now?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><img border=3D"0" =
id=3D"_x0000_i1025" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3Dc2542a73-9b36-42f1-b091-b07ceade1=
8ee" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Gadugi, =
sans-serif; color: white;" class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin =
Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working =
on an updated charter based on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was =
aiming to have out today anyway, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99=
s my take on a new charter, incorporating some of your points below:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-left: 30pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This group is chartered to =
develop a delegation protocol for identity, authorization, and API =
access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access =
to client software through an authorization server. The use cases =
supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases =
currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The delegation process will be acted =
upon by multiple parties in the protocol, each performing a specific =
role. The protocol will be initiated by the client interacting directly =
with the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is =
initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The =
client will involve the authorizing party as necessary through =
interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Additionally, the delegation process =
will allow for:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- Fine-grained specification of resource access<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a =
single interaction<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Delegation between multiple users<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client =
applications<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The group will define extension points for this protocol to =
allow for flexibility in areas including:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Cryptographic agility for keys, =
message signatures, and proof of possession&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web =
methods<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Mechanisms for providing user, =
software, organization, and other pieces of information used in =
authorization decisions<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Token presentation =
mechanisms and key bindings<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for =
management of the protocol lifecycle including:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Discovery of the authorization =
server<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Revocation of active tokens<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- Query of token rights by resource servers<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Although the artifacts for this work =
are not intended or expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 =
or OpenID Connect, the group will&nbsp;attempt to simplify porting from =
OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">While the initial work will focus on using =
HTTP for communication between the client and the authorization server, =
the working group will seek to take advantage of optimization features =
of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to&nbsp;enable simple mapping to =
other protocols such as COAP.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><=
div class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: =
0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 =
PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><=
/div><div class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hey<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I've written an alternative charter =
that I hope captures some of the feedback on Justin's charter.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I found it easier to rewrite the =
charter to broaden the marketplace of ideas.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Key ideas:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- This work supports existing OAuth =
2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- The client interacts directly with the authorization =
server.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">/Dick<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></=
div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">----<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the =
protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server..<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></=
div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Additionally,=
 the protocol will allow:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- fine-grained =
specification of resource access<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- the user to approve =
requests for identity claims and access to multiple resources in one =
interaction<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- web, mobile, single-page, and other =
client applications<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- taking advantage of optimization =
features in HTTP2 and HTTP3<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">The group =
will define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexibility =
in areas including:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">- discovery of the =
authorization server<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- cryptographic agility for keys, =
message signatures, and proof of possession&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web =
methods- token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Although the artifacts for this work are not =
intended or expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID =
Connect, they will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID =
Connect, and strive to reuse existing semantics such as client =
identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID =
Tokens and claims.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">While the initial work =
will focus on using HTTP for communication between the client and the =
authorization server, the working group will strive to enable simple =
mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><img border=3D"0" =
id=3D"_x0000_i1026" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D4100f11c-15ca-4d45-bbd2-c02996582=
1fb" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Gadugi, =
sans-serif; color: white;" class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">Txauth =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">Txauth =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">--<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any typos<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 09:53:00 -0800
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UX constrained devices?

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 9:30 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> I think it should be I struggled on how to capture that. The key element
> here is that there=E2=80=99s one device doing the request and another doi=
ng the
> interaction. This pattern is also used in CIBA and some UMA style flows, =
so
> it=E2=80=99s not just about the nature of the client but also about the n=
ature of
> the users involved.
>
> So for now that=E2=80=99s firmly in =E2=80=9Cand other=E2=80=9D but I=E2=
=80=99m open to suggestion!
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Jan 13, 2020, at 2:59 AM, Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>
> wrote:
>
> "Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications"
>
> Should device (as in device flow) be explicitly mentioned here?
>
> *From:* Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@hopebailie.com>
> *Sent:* Samstag, 11. Januar 2020 08:11
> *To:* Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; txauth@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>
> +1
>
> On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 04:56 Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
>
> What do others think of the proposed charter now?
> =E1=90=A7
>
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on ev=
eryone=E2=80=99s
> feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, so this timing is
> helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, incorporating some o=
f your
> points below:
>
>
> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity,
> authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing
> party to delegate access to client software through an authorization
> server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.
>
> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the
> protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiated
> by the client interacting directly with the authorization server (in
> contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the
> user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the authorizing party as=
 necessary
> through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.
>
> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>
> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single
> interaction
> - Delegation between multiple users
> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
>
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
> flexibility in areas including:
>
> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
> possession
> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pieces
> of information used in authorization decisions
> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>
> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the
> protocol lifecycle including:
>
> - Discovery of the authorization server
> - Revocation of active tokens
> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be
> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group
> will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the
> new protocol where possible.
>
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between
> the client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to
> take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will stri=
ve
> to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hey
>
> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the
> feedback on Justin's charter.
>
> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of
> ideas.
>
> Key ideas:
>
> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.
>
> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.
>
> /Dick
>
>
> ----
>
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization
> protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. =
In
> contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiated
> by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization server, this protoc=
ol
> will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorizati=
on
> server..
>
>
> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
> - fine-grained specification of resource access
> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to multiple
> resources in one interaction
> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
> flexibility in areas including:
>
> - discovery of the authorization server
> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
> possession
> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token
> presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be
> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt =
to
> simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse
> existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and acces=
s
> tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between
> the client and the authorization server, the working group will strive to
> enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>
>
> =E1=90=A7
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
> --
> Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any typos
>
> This e-mail, including attachments, is intended for the person(s) or
> company named and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged
> information.
> Unauthorized disclosure, copying or use of this information may be
> unlawful and is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> delete this message and notify the sender.
> All incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are stored in the Swiss Re
> Electronic Message Repository.
> If you do not wish the retention of potentially private e-mails by Swiss
> Re, we strongly advise you not to use the Swiss Re e-mail account for any
> private, non-business related communications. --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

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<div><div dir=3D"auto">UX constrained devices?</div></div><div><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 13, 20=
20 at 9:30 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@=
mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">I think it should be=
 I struggled on how to capture that. The key element here is that there=E2=
=80=99s one device doing the request and another doing the interaction. Thi=
s pattern is also used in CIBA and some UMA style flows, so it=E2=80=99s no=
t just about the nature of the client but also about the nature of the user=
s involved.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>So for now that=E2=80=99s firmly in =
=E2=80=9Cand other=E2=80=9D but I=E2=80=99m open to suggestion!</div></div>=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div><br><=
div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><div>On Jan 13, 2020, at 2:59 AM, Lee McGovern &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:L=
ee_McGovern@swissre.com" target=3D"_blank">Lee_McGovern@swissre.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;fo=
nt-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
quot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Web, mobile, single-page, and other types =
of client applications&quot;<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang=
=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
Should device (as in device flow) be explicitly mentioned here?<u></u><u></=
u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<span>=C2=A0</span>Adrian Hope-Bailie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@hopebail=
ie.com" target=3D"_blank">adrian@hopebailie.com</a>&gt;<span>=C2=A0</span><=
br><b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Samstag, 11. Januar 2020 08:11<br><b>To:<=
/b><span>=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0<=
/span>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank=
">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">txauth@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Txauth] =
alternative charter writeup<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">+1<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Sat, =
Jan 11, 2020 at 04:56 Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">dick.h=
ardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D=
"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:=
rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm=
"><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">This looks even better! Thanks Justin.<u></u><u></u></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0c=
m 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">What do other=
s think of the proposed charter now?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><img border=3D"0" id=3D"m_-3187975825594477095_x0000_i1025" s=
rc=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb2=
0%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3Dc2542a73-9b36-42f1-b091-b07ceade18ee=
"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Gadugi,sans-serif;color:white"=
>=E1=90=A7</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;b=
order-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm=
 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks, Dick. I=E2=
=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on everyone=E2=80=99s fee=
dback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, so this timing is helpful=
. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, incorporating some of your po=
ints below:<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></d=
iv><blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, auth=
orization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to=
 delegate access to client software through an authorization server. The us=
e cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases c=
urrently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The d=
elegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the protocol, e=
ach performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiated by the clien=
t interacting directly with the authorization server (in contrast with OAut=
h 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser=
). The client will involve the authorizing party as necessary through inter=
action mechanisms indicated by the protocol.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Additionally=
, the delegation process will allow for:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Fine-grained specifi=
cation of resource access<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Approva=
l of identity claims and multiple resources in a single interaction<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Delegation between multiple users<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Web, mobile, single-page, and other typ=
es of client applications<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The group will define extension poi=
nts for this protocol to allow for flexibility in areas including:<u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if">- Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of poss=
ession=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- User interaction mec=
hanisms including web and non-web methods<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">- Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other p=
ieces of information used in authorization decisions<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">- Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if">Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the p=
rotocol lifecycle including:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Discovery of the authorization s=
erver<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Revocation of active tokens=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Query of token rights by resourc=
e servers<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">Although the artifacts for this work are not intended=
 or expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, t=
he group will=C2=A0attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Co=
nnect to the new protocol where possible.<br><br>While the initial work wil=
l focus on using HTTP for communication between the client and the authoriz=
ation server, the working group will seek to take advantage of optimization=
 features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to=C2=A0enable simple mapping=
 to other protocols such as COAP.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><div>=
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1p=
t;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.=
8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;ma=
rgin-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></blockquote></div>=
</div></div></blockquote></div><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none =
none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div><b=
lockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Hey<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">I&#39;ve written an alternative charter that I hope captures some=
 of the feedback on Justin&#39;s charter.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I found it easier to =
rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of ideas.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Key ideas:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">- This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID =
Connect use cases.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0=
cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- The client interacts directly with the aut=
horization server.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></di=
v></div></blockquote></div><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none=
 none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div><block=
quote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
----<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and auth=
orization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will include =
widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Conn=
ect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is ini=
tiated by redirecting the user&#39;s browser to an authorization server, th=
is protocol will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the a=
uthorization server..<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><blockquote style=3D"border-st=
yle:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><di=
v><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><br>Additionally, the protocol will allow:<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">- fine-grained specification of resource access<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- the user to approve requests for id=
entity claims and access to multiple resources in one interaction<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- web, mobile, single-page, and other client=
 applications<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- taking advantage of=
 optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><br>The group will define extension points for this protocol to allo=
w for flexibility in areas including:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><br>- discovery of the authorization server<u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">- cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof=
 of possession=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm=
 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- user interac=
tion mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token presentation mecha=
nisms and key bindings<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>Although=
 the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be backwards-c=
ompatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt to simplify p=
orting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse existing sema=
ntics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access tokens, and O=
penID Connect ID Tokens and claims.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><br>While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication betw=
een the client and the authorization server, the working group will strive =
to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<u></u><u></u></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><img border=3D"0" id=
=3D"m_-3187975825594477095_x0000_i1026" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.c=
om/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;gu=
id=3D4100f11c-15ca-4d45-bbd2-c029965821fb"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;f=
ont-family:Gadugi,sans-serif;color:white">=E1=90=A7</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">--<span>=C2=A0</span><br>Txauth mailing list<br><a href=
=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/txauth" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><u></u><u>=
</u></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></di=
v></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<span>=C2=A0</span><br>Txauth mailin=
g list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txa=
uth</a><u></u><u></u></div></blockquote></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0c=
m 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<span>=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent from a mobile device, ple=
ase excuse any typos<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><br style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><di=
v style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text=
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ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!impo=
rtant">Unauthorized disclosure, copying or use of this information may be u=
nlawful and is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please de=
lete this message and notify the sender.</span><br style=3D"font-family:Hel=
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orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span st=
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caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
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0px;text-decoration:none"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12=
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:34:18 -0800
Message-ID: <CAD9ie-u5aV+FShiseuNRu_Ayp3EJjrN=zM1XBJW+vc9wDdL3NQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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--0000000000004c1ded059c0ec1d5
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I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand the
motivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?

This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization
protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, an
extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, where the protocol is
initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization server,
this protocol will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the
authorization server, which will mitigate many of the security concerns and
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.


On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <
richanna@amazon.com> wrote:

> While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this from
> the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or listen=
ed to
> Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to see what the =
point of this
> group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d expect this charter to pr=
ovide at
> least a cursory explanation of what problem it is trying to solve. In thi=
s
> case, the problem should be partially defined in relation to OAuth. What
> will this WG do that the OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=
=80=99t already
> doing?
>
>
>
> How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:
>
>
>
> The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical
> challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels between the
> client and the authorization server, and minimizing the amount of
> information transmitted over untrusted channels.
>
>
>
> =E2=80=93
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> AWS Identity
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM
> *To: *Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> *Cc: *"txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>
>
>
> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
>
>
>
> What do others think of the proposed charter now?
>
> =E1=90=A7
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on ev=
eryone=E2=80=99s
> feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, so this timing is
> helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, incorporating some o=
f your
> points below:
>
>
>
> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity,
> authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing
> party to delegate access to client software through an authorization
> server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.
>
>
>
> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the
> protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiated
> by the client interacting directly with the authorization server (in
> contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the
> user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the authorizing party as=
 necessary
> through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.
>
>
>
> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>
>
>
> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>
> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single
> interaction
>
> - Delegation between multiple users
>
> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
>
>
>
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
> flexibility in areas including:
>
>
>
> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
> possession
>
> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>
> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pieces
> of information used in authorization decisions
>
> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>
>
>
> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the
> protocol lifecycle including:
>
>
>
> - Discovery of the authorization server
>
> - Revocation of active tokens
>
> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>
>
>
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be
> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group
> will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the
> new protocol where possible.
>
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between
> the client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to
> take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will stri=
ve
> to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hey
>
>
>
> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the
> feedback on Justin's charter.
>
>
>
> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of
> ideas.
>
>
>
> Key ideas:
>
>
>
> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.
>
>
>
> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.
>
>
>
> /Dick
>
>
>
> ----
>
>
>
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization
> protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. =
In
> contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiated
> by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization server, this protoc=
ol
> will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorizati=
on
> server..
>
>
> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
>
> - fine-grained specification of resource access
>
> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to multiple
> resources in one interaction
>
> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
>
> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>
>
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
> flexibility in areas including:
>
>
> - discovery of the authorization server
>
> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
> possession
>
> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token
> presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>
>
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be
> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt =
to
> simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse
> existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and acces=
s
> tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>
>
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between
> the client and the authorization server, the working group will strive to
> enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>
>
>
>
>
> =E1=90=A7
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
>
>

--0000000000004c1ded059c0ec1d5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I agree, some more &quot;why&quot; would help a broad=
er audience understand the motivations. How about this change to the first =
paragraph?</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">This group is c=
hartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization protocol. The us=
e cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases c=
urrently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth =
2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, where the protocol is initiated by redirecti=
ng the user&#39;s browser to an authorization server, this protocol will be=
 initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorization server=
, which will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical challenge=
s of OAuth 2.0.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at=
 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.c=
om">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-4282952497863071934WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">While I agree with the goals stated in this charter,=
 if I read this from the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our=
 meetings or listened to Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard p=
ressed to see what the point of this group is, relative to
 the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d expect this charter to provide at least a cursor=
y explanation of what problem it is trying to solve. In this case, the prob=
lem should be partially defined in relation to OAuth. What will this WG do =
that the OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or
 isn=E2=80=99t already doing?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How about adding something like the following to par=
agraph 2:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">The protocol will mitiga=
te many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 by c=
ommunicating over secure channels between the client and the authorization =
server, and minimizing the amount of
 information transmitted over untrusted channels.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=93=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Annabelle Richard Bac=
kman<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">AWS Identity<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: =
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Txauth &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">txauth-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_=
blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">txaut=
h@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This looks even better! Thanks Justin. <u></u><u></u=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What do others think of the proposed charter now?=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><img id=3D"gmail-m_-4282952497863071934_x0000_i1026"=
 src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3Dc2542a73-9b36-42f1-b091-b07ceade18=
ee"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Euphemia UCAS&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:white">=E1=90=A7</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an update=
d charter based on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have ou=
t today anyway, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a n=
ew charter, incorporating some of your points below:
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This group is chartered to develop a delegation prot=
ocol for identity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow =
an authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an autho=
rization server. The use cases supported
 by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases currently supporte=
d by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The delegation process will be acted upon by multipl=
e parties in the protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol wi=
ll be initiated by the client interacting directly with the authorization s=
erver (in contrast with OAuth 2 which
 is initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The cl=
ient will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interaction me=
chanisms indicated by the protocol.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Fine-grained specification of resource access<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Approval of identity claims and multiple resources=
 in a single interaction<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Delegation between multiple users<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of clien=
t applications<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The group will define extension points for this prot=
ocol to allow for flexibility in areas including:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures=
, and proof of possession=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- User interaction mechanisms including web and non-=
web methods<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Mechanisms for providing user, software, organizat=
ion, and other pieces of information used in authorization decisions<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for =
management of the protocol lifecycle including:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Discovery of the authorization server<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Revocation of active tokens<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Query of token rights by resource servers<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Although the artifacts for this work are not intende=
d or expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, =
the group will=C2=A0attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID C=
onnect to the new protocol where possible.<br>
<br>
While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between t=
he client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to take=
 advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to=
=C2=A0enable simple mapping to other protocols
 such as COAP.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hey <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;ve written an alternative charter that I hope =
captures some of the feedback on Justin&#39;s charter.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden =
the marketplace of ideas.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Key ideas:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID =
Connect use cases.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- The client interacts directly with the authorizati=
on server.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/Dick<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">----<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This group is chartered to develop a delegated ident=
ity and authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol w=
ill include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and=
 OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth
 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiated by redirecting the=
 user&#39;s browser to an authorization server, this protocol will be initi=
ated by the client directly interacting with the authorization server..<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Additionally, the protocol will allow:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- fine-grained specification of resource access<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- the user to approve requests for identity claims a=
nd access to multiple resources in one interaction<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- web, mobile, single-page, and other client applica=
tions<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2=
 and HTTP3<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexi=
bility in areas including:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
- discovery of the authorization server<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures=
, and proof of possession=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- user interaction mechanisms including web and non-=
web methods- token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be bac=
kwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt to si=
mplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse exist=
ing semantics such as client identifiers,
 OAuth 2.0 scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claim=
s.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between t=
he client and the authorization server, the working group will strive to en=
able simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><img border=3D"0" id=3D"gmail-m_-4282952497863071934=
_x0000_i1025" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJ=
kdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D4100f11c-15ca-4d45-bb=
d2-c029965821fb"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Euphemia =
UCAS&quot;,sans-serif;color:white">=E1=90=A7</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <br>
Txauth mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--0000000000004c1ded059c0ec1d5--


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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
CC: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s =
framing of it in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why =
we=E2=80=99re doing it in relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of =
the key things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99re making a break from OAuth =
2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for very specific reasons.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I the =
key thing to emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation =
channels, which addresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues =
and also provides a path to support future delegation channel types =
without significant changes to the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where =
extensions like Device Flow and PAR introduce substantial changes to the =
core protocol flow on both client and AS). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99=
t assuming a particular front channel, it=E2=80=99s easier to add =
support for a new one.
> =20
> Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be =
decoupled from delegation channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s web =
browser and operate primarily through a channel between the client and =
the authorization server, avoiding many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invasive path for =
adding support for future types of clients and delegation channels.
> =20
> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
> =20
> =20
> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM
> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" =
<txauth@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
> =20
> I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand the =
motivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?
> =20
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, =
where the protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server, which will mitigate =
many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.
> =20
> =20
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>> While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this =
from the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or =
listened to Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to =
see what the point of this group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d=
 expect this charter to provide at least a cursory explanation of what =
problem it is trying to solve. In this case, the problem should be =
partially defined in relation to OAuth. What will this WG do that the =
OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?
>> =20
>> How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:
>> =20
>> The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels =
between the client and the authorization server, and minimizing the =
amount of information transmitted over untrusted channels.
>> =20
>> =E2=80=93=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> AWS Identity
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>> Date: Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM
>> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>
>> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>" <txauth@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>> =20
>> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
>> =20
>> What do others think of the proposed charter now?=20
>> =E1=90=A7
>> =20
>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>>> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based =
on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today =
anyway, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new =
charter, incorporating some of your points below:=20
>>> =20
>>>> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
identity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in =
the protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be =
initiated by the client interacting directly with the authorization =
server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client =
redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the =
authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated =
by the protocol.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>>>> =20
>>>> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>>>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
>>>> - Delegation between multiple users
>>>> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
>>>> =20
>>>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:
>>>> =20
>>>> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>>>> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>>>> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
>>>> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>>> =20
>>>> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of =
the protocol lifecycle including:
>>>> =20
>>>> - Discovery of the authorization server
>>>> - Revocation of active tokens
>>>> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>>>> =20
>>>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected =
to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group =
will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to =
the new protocol where possible.
>>>>=20
>>>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and =
will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>>> =20
>>>> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> =20
>>>> Hey
>>>> =20
>>>> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of =
the feedback on Justin's charter.
>>>> =20
>>>> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace =
of ideas.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> Key ideas:
>>>> =20
>>>> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use =
cases.
>>>> =20
>>>> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> /Dick
>>>> =20
>>>> ----
>>>> =20
>>>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the =
protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server..
>>>>=20
>>>> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
>>>> - fine-grained specification of resource access
>>>> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to =
multiple resources in one interaction
>>>> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
>>>> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>>>>=20
>>>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:
>>>>=20
>>>> - discovery of the authorization server
>>>> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>>>> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- =
token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>>>=20
>>>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected =
to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and =
strive to reuse existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 =
scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>>>>=20
>>>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =E1=90=A7
>>>> --=20
>>>> Txauth mailing list
>>>> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>

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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s framing =
of it in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why we=E2=80=99re =
doing it in relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of the key =
things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99re making a break from OAuth 2=E2=80=99s=
 core architecture but doing so for very specific reasons.&nbsp;<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 =
Justin<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, =
Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99=
s not just about the initial communication, though. I the key thing to =
emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation channels, which =
addresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues and also =
provides a path to support future delegation channel types without =
significant changes to the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where extensions =
like Device Flow and PAR introduce substantial changes to the core =
protocol flow on both client and AS). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99t =
assuming a particular front channel, it=E2=80=99s easier to add support =
for a new one.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This =
group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization =
protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely =
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, =
an extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be decoupled from =
delegation channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s web browser and =
operate primarily through a channel between the client and the =
authorization server, avoiding many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invasive path for =
adding support for future types of clients and delegation channels.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">=E2=80=93&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">AWS Identity<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Monday, January 13, =
2020 at 4:35 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Txauth] =
alternative charter writeup<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I agree, some more "why" would help a =
broader audience understand the motivations. How about this change to =
the first paragraph?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, =
where the protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server, which will mitigate =
many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Mon, =
Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:=
 none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">While I agree with the =
goals stated in this charter, if I read this from the perspective of =
someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or listened to Justin=E2=80=99=
s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to see what the point of this =
group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d expect this charter to =
provide at least a cursory explanation of what problem it is trying to =
solve. In this case, the problem should be partially defined in relation =
to OAuth. What will this WG do that the OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already =
done or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">How about adding something like the =
following to paragraph 2:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels =
between the client and the authorization server, and minimizing the =
amount of information transmitted over untrusted channels.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=93&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">AWS Identity</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Txauth &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Friday, January 10, =
2020 at 6:57 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Txauth] =
alternative charter writeup</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This looks even better! Thanks Justin.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">What do others think of the proposed =
charter now?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><img border=3D"0" =
id=3D"gmail-m_-4282952497863071934_x005f_x0000_i1026" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3Dc2542a73-9b36-42f1-b091-b07ceade1=
8ee" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: =
&quot;Euphemia UCAS&quot;, sans-serif; color: white;" =
class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Fri, =
Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:=
 none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter =
based on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today =
anyway, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new =
charter, incorporating some of your points below:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 30pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This group is chartered to =
develop a delegation protocol for identity, authorization, and API =
access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access =
to client software through an authorization server. The use cases =
supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases =
currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The delegation process will be acted =
upon by multiple parties in the protocol, each performing a specific =
role. The protocol will be initiated by the client interacting directly =
with the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is =
initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The =
client will involve the authorizing party as necessary through =
interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Additionally, the delegation process =
will allow for:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- Fine-grained specification of resource access<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a =
single interaction<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Delegation between multiple users<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client =
applications<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The group will define extension points for this protocol to =
allow for flexibility in areas including:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Cryptographic agility for keys, =
message signatures, and proof of possession&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web =
methods<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Mechanisms for providing user, =
software, organization, and other pieces of information used in =
authorization decisions<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Token presentation =
mechanisms and key bindings<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for =
management of the protocol lifecycle including:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Discovery of the authorization =
server<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Revocation of active tokens<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- Query of token rights by resource servers<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Although the artifacts for this work =
are not intended or expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 =
or OpenID Connect, the group will&nbsp;attempt to simplify porting from =
OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">While the initial work will focus on using =
HTTP for communication between the client and the authorization server, =
the working group will seek to take advantage of optimization features =
of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to&nbsp;enable simple mapping to =
other protocols such as COAP.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hey<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some =
of the feedback on Justin's charter.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the =
marketplace of ideas.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Key ideas:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect =
use cases.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- The client interacts directly with the authorization =
server.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">/Dick<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">----<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the =
protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server..<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Additionally, the protocol will allow:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- fine-grained specification of resource access<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- the user to approve requests for identity claims and access =
to multiple resources in one interaction<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and =
HTTP3<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">The group will define =
extension points for this protocol to allow for flexibility in areas =
including:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">- discovery of the =
authorization server<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- cryptographic agility for keys, =
message signatures, and proof of possession&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web =
methods- token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Although the artifacts for this work are not =
intended or expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID =
Connect, they will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID =
Connect, and strive to reuse existing semantics such as client =
identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID =
Tokens and claims.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">While the initial work =
will focus on using HTTP for communication between the client and the =
authorization server, the working group will strive to enable simple =
mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><img border=3D"0" =
id=3D"gmail-m_-4282952497863071934_x005f_x0000_i1025" =
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1fb" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: =
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style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">Txauth =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a></div></div></b=
lockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></=
div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:12:02 -0800
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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Sounds good to me.

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s framin=
g of it
> in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why we=E2=80=99re doing i=
t in
> relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of the key things, to me, is =
that we=E2=80=99re
> making a break from OAuth 2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for =
very
> specific reasons.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I the key =
thing to
> emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation channels, which
> addresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues and also provides=
 a
> path to support future delegation channel types without significant chang=
es
> to the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where extensions like Device Flow and
> PAR introduce substantial changes to the core protocol flow on both clien=
t
> and AS). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99t assuming a particular front cha=
nnel, it=E2=80=99s
> easier to add support for a new one.
>
> Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization
> protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, =
an
> extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be decoupled from delegation
> channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s web browser and operate primarily =
through a
> channel between the client and the authorization server, avoiding many of
> the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing=
 a
> non-invasive path for adding support for future types of clients and
> delegation channels.
>
> =E2=80=93
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
>
>
> *From: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM
> *To: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc: *Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org=
>
> *Subject: *Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>
> I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand the
> motivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?
>
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization
> protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, =
an
> extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, where the protocol is
> initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization server,
> this protocol will be initiated by the client directly interacting with t=
he
> authorization server, which will mitigate many of the security concerns a=
nd
> technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this from
> the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or listen=
ed to
> Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to see what the =
point of this
> group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d expect this charter to pr=
ovide at
> least a cursory explanation of what problem it is trying to solve. In thi=
s
> case, the problem should be partially defined in relation to OAuth. What
> will this WG do that the OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=
=80=99t already
> doing?
>
> How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:
>
> The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical
> challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels between the
> client and the authorization server, and minimizing the amount of
> information transmitted over untrusted channels.
>
> =E2=80=93
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
>
>
> *From: *Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM
> *To: *Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> *Cc: *"txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>
> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
>
> What do others think of the proposed charter now?
> =E1=90=A7
>
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on ev=
eryone=E2=80=99s
> feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, so this timing is
> helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, incorporating some o=
f your
> points below:
>
>
> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity,
> authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing
> party to delegate access to client software through an authorization
> server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.
>
> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the
> protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiated
> by the client interacting directly with the authorization server (in
> contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the
> user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the authorizing party as=
 necessary
> through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.
>
> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>
> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single
> interaction
> - Delegation between multiple users
> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
>
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
> flexibility in areas including:
>
> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
> possession
> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pieces
> of information used in authorization decisions
> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>
> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the
> protocol lifecycle including:
>
> - Discovery of the authorization server
> - Revocation of active tokens
> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be
> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group
> will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the
> new protocol where possible.
>
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between
> the client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to
> take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will stri=
ve
> to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hey
>
> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the
> feedback on Justin's charter.
>
> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of
> ideas.
>
> Key ideas:
>
> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.
>
> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.
>
> /Dick
>
> ----
>
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization
> protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. =
In
> contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiated
> by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization server, this protoc=
ol
> will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorizati=
on
> server..
>
> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
> - fine-grained specification of resource access
> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to multiple
> resources in one interaction
> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
> flexibility in areas including:
>
> - discovery of the authorization server
> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
> possession
> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token
> presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be
> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt =
to
> simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse
> existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and acces=
s
> tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between
> the client and the authorization server, the working group will strive to
> enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>
>
> =E1=90=A7
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
>

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<div>Sounds good to me.</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line=
-break:after-white-space">I can get behind this kind of addition. I like An=
nabelle=E2=80=99s framing of it in terms of decoupling, and some explanatio=
n of why we=E2=80=99re doing it in relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. =
One of the key things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99re making a break from OAu=
th 2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for very specific reasons.=C2=
=A0</div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><=
div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><div>On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12p=
x;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">It=E2=80=99s not j=
ust about the initial communication, though. I the key thing to emphasize i=
s the decoupling the protocol from delegation channels, which addresses the=
 aforementioned security/complexity issues and also provides a path to supp=
ort future delegation channel types without significant changes to the prot=
ocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where extensions like Device Flow and PAR introduce=
 substantial changes to the core protocol flow on both client and AS). Sinc=
e the protocol isn=E2=80=99t assuming a particular front channel, it=E2=80=
=99s easier to add support for a new one.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s sugge=
stion:<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This group is chartered to develo=
p a delegated identity and authorization protocol. The use cases supported =
by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases currently supported=
 by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol=
 will be decoupled from delegation channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s w=
eb browser and operate primarily through a channel between the client and t=
he authorization server, avoiding many of the security concerns and technic=
al challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invasive path for adding sup=
port for future types of clients and delegation channels.<u></u><u></u></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12pt">=E2=80=93=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12pt">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">AWS Identity<u></u><u></u></span><=
/div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;bor=
der-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span>=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt">Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>=
Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM<br><b>To:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;R=
ichard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span>=C2=A0</span><=
/b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">j=
richer@mit.edu</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span>=C2=A0</span></=
b>Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<u></u><u></u></span></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I agree,=
 some more &quot;why&quot; would help a broader audience understand the mot=
ivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This gr=
oup is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization protocol=
. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use=
 cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, an extension o=
f OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, where the protocol is initiated by r=
edirecting the user&#39;s browser to an authorization server, this protocol=
 will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorizatio=
n server, which will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical c=
hallenges of OAuth 2.0.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-=
left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;m=
argin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">While =
I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this from the pers=
pective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or listened to Just=
in=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to see what the point =
of this group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d expect this charter=
 to provide at least a cursory explanation of what problem it is trying to =
solve. In this case, the problem should be partially defined in relation to=
 OAuth. What will this WG do that the OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done =
or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">How about adding something like the following to para=
graph 2:<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and technica=
l challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels between the=
 client and the authorization server, and minimizing the amount of informat=
ion transmitted over untrusted channels.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=
=93=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt=
">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt">AWS Identity</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181=
,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
From:<span>=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Txauth &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beh=
alf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 =
PM<br><b>To:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jric=
her@mit.edu" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bl=
ank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;<a href=
=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" target=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@=
ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank=
">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Txauth]=
 alternative charter writeup</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This looks even better! Tha=
nks Justin.<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">What do others think of the proposed charter now?=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><img border=3D"0" id=3D"m_-682=
1204497648159462gmail-m_-4282952497863071934_x005f_x0000_i1026" src=3D"http=
s://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;t=
ype=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3Dc2542a73-9b36-42f1-b091-b07ceade18ee"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Euphemia UCAS&quot;,sans-serif;col=
or:white">=E1=90=A7</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Ri=
cher &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u=
></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;bor=
der-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6=
pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks, Dick. I=
=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on everyone=E2=80=99s =
feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, so this timing is help=
ful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, incorporating some of your=
 points below:<span>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:5pt 0in 5pt 30pt" type=
=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">This group is chartered to develop a delegation pr=
otocol for identity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allo=
w an authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an aut=
horization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include wi=
dely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect=
.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple p=
arties in the protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will =
be initiated by the client interacting directly with the authorization serv=
er (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting t=
he user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the authorizing party a=
s necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">- Fine-grained specification of resource access<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">- Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a s=
ingle interaction<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Delegation betw=
een multiple users<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Web, mobile, s=
ingle-page, and other types of client applications<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The group wi=
ll define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexibility in ar=
eas including:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Cryptographic agility for keys, message signat=
ures, and proof of possession=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>- User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Mechanisms for providing user, software, or=
ganization, and other pieces of information used in authorization decisions=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Token presentation mechanisms an=
d key bindings<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms =
for management of the protocol lifecycle including:<u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Discovery=
 of the authorization server<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Revo=
cation of active tokens<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- Query of =
token rights by resource servers<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Although the artifacts for t=
his work are not intended or expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth=
 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will=C2=A0attempt to simplify porting fro=
m OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible.<br><br>W=
hile the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between th=
e client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to take =
advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to=
=C2=A0enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote><div=
><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hey<u></u><u></u=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I&#39;=
ve written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the feedback=
 on Justin&#39;s charter.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I found it easier to rewrite the char=
ter to broaden the marketplace of ideas.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Key ideas:<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">- This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use case=
s.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">- The client interacts directly with the authorization serve=
r.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">----<u></u><u></u></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This group is chartered t=
o develop a delegated identity and authorization protocol.. The use cases s=
upported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases currently =
supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and Op=
enID Connect, where the protocol is initiated by redirecting the user&#39;s=
 browser to an authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the=
 client directly interacting with the authorization server..<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>Additionally, the protocol will allow:<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- fine-grained specification of resource =
access<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- the user to approve reques=
ts for identity claims and access to multiple resources in one interaction<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- web, mobile, single-page, and oth=
er client applications<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- taking adv=
antage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><br>The group will define extension points for this protoco=
l to allow for flexibility in areas including:<u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><br>- discovery of the authorization server<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">- cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, =
and proof of possession=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">- use=
r interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token presentat=
ion mechanisms and key bindings<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br=
>Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be ba=
ckwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt to s=
implify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse exis=
ting semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access toke=
ns, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><br>While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communica=
tion between the client and the authorization server, the working group wil=
l strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<u></u><u=
></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><img borde=
r=3D"0" id=3D"m_-6821204497648159462gmail-m_-4282952497863071934_x005f_x000=
0_i1025" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBn=
bWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D4100f11c-15ca-4d45-bbd2-c0=
29965821fb"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Euphemia UCAS&=
quot;,sans-serif;color:white">=E1=90=A7</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">--<span>=C2=A0</span><br>Txauth mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tx=
auth@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_=
blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/txauth" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a></div></div></blockquot=
e></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div=
></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div>

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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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Here=E2=80=99s my updated text incorporating the feedback so far:


This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, =
authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing =
party to delegate access to client software through an authorization =
server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely =
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect =
(an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by =
OAuth 2.0.

The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple =
the interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from =
the delegation channel, which happens directly between the client and =
the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by =
the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will =
involve the authorizing party as necessary through interaction =
mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This decoupling avoids many of the =
security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as =
providing a non-invasive path for supporting future types of clients and =
interaction channels.

Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:

- Fine-grained specification of resource access
- Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
- Delegation between multiple users
- Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types of =
client applications

The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:

- Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
- User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
- Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
- Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings

Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the =
protocol lifecycle including:

- Discovery of the authorization server
- Revocation of active tokens
- Query of token rights by resource servers

Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be =
backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new =
protocol where possible.

While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where =
possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols =
such as COAP.


It=E2=80=99s definitely a lot, but I think we=E2=80=99ve got a good =
handle on what we=E2=80=99re working on, and what the boundaries are. I =
think this is both too much of an effort and too much of a break to do =
this in the OAuth WG, where there=E2=80=99s already still plenty of work =
to be done. We=E2=80=99re leaning a lot on lessons learned from the =
OAuth 2 world and its extensions, including OIDC and UMA2. We=E2=80=99ve =
got the attention of a lot of the right people to start this as well.

So to the AD=E2=80=99s: Ben and Roman =E2=80=94 what=E2=80=99s the next =
step? This should be a new working group and like to get it started so =
that we can have our first meeting in Vancouver.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 14, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Sounds good to me.
>=20
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s =
framing of it in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why =
we=E2=80=99re doing it in relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of =
the key things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99re making a break from OAuth =
2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for very specific reasons.=20
>=20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>> On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I the =
key thing to emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation =
channels, which addresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues =
and also provides a path to support future delegation channel types =
without significant changes to the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where =
extensions like Device Flow and PAR introduce substantial changes to the =
core protocol flow on both client and AS). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99=
t assuming a particular front channel, it=E2=80=99s easier to add =
support for a new one.
>> =20
>> Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be =
decoupled from delegation channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s web =
browser and operate primarily through a channel between the client and =
the authorization server, avoiding many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invasive path for =
adding support for future types of clients and delegation channels.
>> =20
>> =E2=80=93=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> AWS Identity
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>> Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM
>> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>
>> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, =
"txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>" <txauth@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>> =20
>> I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand the =
motivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?
>> =20
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, =
where the protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server, which will mitigate =
many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.
>> =20
>> =20
>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>> While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this =
from the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or =
listened to Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to =
see what the point of this group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d=
 expect this charter to provide at least a cursory explanation of what =
problem it is trying to solve. In this case, the problem should be =
partially defined in relation to OAuth. What will this WG do that the =
OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?
>>> =20
>>> How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:
>>> =20
>>> The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels =
between the client and the authorization server, and minimizing the =
amount of information transmitted over untrusted channels.
>>> =20
>>> =E2=80=93=20
>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>> AWS Identity
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>>> Date: Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM
>>> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>
>>> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>" <txauth@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>>> =20
>>> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
>>> =20
>>> What do others think of the proposed charter now?=20
>>> =E1=90=A7
>>> =20
>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>>>> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based =
on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today =
anyway, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new =
charter, incorporating some of your points below:=20
>>>> =20
>>>>> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
identity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect.=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in =
the protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be =
initiated by the client interacting directly with the authorization =
server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client =
redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the =
authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated =
by the protocol.=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>>>>> =20
>>>>> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>>>>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
>>>>> - Delegation between multiple users
>>>>> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
>>>>> =20
>>>>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:
>>>>> =20
>>>>> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>>>>> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>>>>> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
>>>>> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of =
the protocol lifecycle including:
>>>>> =20
>>>>> - Discovery of the authorization server
>>>>> - Revocation of active tokens
>>>>> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected =
to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group =
will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to =
the new protocol where possible.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and =
will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Hey
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of =
the feedback on Justin's charter.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the =
marketplace of ideas.=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Key ideas:
>>>>> =20
>>>>> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use =
cases.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> /Dick
>>>>> =20
>>>>> ----
>>>>> =20
>>>>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the =
protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server..
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
>>>>> - fine-grained specification of resource access
>>>>> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to =
multiple resources in one interaction
>>>>> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
>>>>> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - discovery of the authorization server
>>>>> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>>>>> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- =
token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected =
to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and =
strive to reuse existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 =
scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =E1=90=A7
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Txauth mailing list
>>>>> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>


--Apple-Mail=_76A24BD8-D79C-4197-88C2-85B8F7FAE62D
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s my updated text incorporating the feedback so =
far:<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">This group is =
chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, authorization, =
and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to =
delegate access to client software through an authorization server. The =
use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use =
cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension =
of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth =
2.0.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">The delegation =
process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the protocol, each =
performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple the interaction =
channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from the delegation =
channel, which happens directly between the client and the authorization =
server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client =
redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the =
authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated =
by the protocol. This decoupling avoids many of the security concerns =
and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as providing a =
non-invasive path for supporting future types of clients and interaction =
channels.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Additionally, the =
delegation process will allow for:</div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- =
Fine-grained specification of resource access</div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Approval of identity claims and multiple =
resources in a single interaction</div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">- Delegation between multiple users</div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Web, mobile, single-page, =
interaction-constrained, and other types of client =
applications</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">The group will =
define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexibility in =
areas including:</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Cryptographic =
agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession&nbsp;</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- User =
interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods</div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Mechanisms for providing user, software, =
organization, and other pieces of information used in authorization =
decisions</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Token =
presentation mechanisms and key bindings</div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for =
management of the protocol lifecycle including:</div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"">- Discovery of the authorization server</div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Revocation of active tokens</div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Query of token rights by resource =
servers</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Although the =
artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be =
backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group =
will&nbsp;attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect =
to the new protocol where possible.</div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for =
communication between the client and the authorization server, the =
working group will seek to take advantage of optimization features of =
HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and will strive to&nbsp;enable simple =
mapping to other protocols such as COAP.</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>It=E2=80=99s definitely a lot, but I think we=E2=80=99=
ve got a good handle on what we=E2=80=99re working on, and what the =
boundaries are. I think this is both too much of an effort and too much =
of a break to do this in the OAuth WG, where there=E2=80=99s already =
still plenty of work to be done. We=E2=80=99re leaning a lot on lessons =
learned from the OAuth 2 world and its extensions, including OIDC and =
UMA2. We=E2=80=99ve got the attention of a lot of the right people to =
start this as well.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>So to the =
AD=E2=80=99s: Ben and Roman =E2=80=94 what=E2=80=99s the next step? This =
should be a new working group and like to get it started so that we can =
have our first meeting in Vancouver.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan =
14, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Sounds good to me.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=3D"">I =
can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s framing =
of it in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why we=E2=80=99re =
doing it in relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of the key =
things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99re making a break from OAuth 2=E2=80=99s=
 core architecture but doing so for very specific =
reasons.&nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=
=94 Justin<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, =
Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">It=E2=80=
=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I the key thing =
to emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation channels, =
which addresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues and also =
provides a path to support future delegation channel types without =
significant changes to the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where extensions =
like Device Flow and PAR introduce substantial changes to the core =
protocol flow on both client and AS). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99t =
assuming a particular front channel, it=E2=80=99s easier to add support =
for a new one.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be =
decoupled from delegation channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s web =
browser and operate primarily through a channel between the client and =
the authorization server, avoiding many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invasive path for =
adding support for future types of clients and delegation channels.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">=E2=80=93&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">AWS Identity<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div =
style=3D"border-style:solid none =
none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt =
0in 0in" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" =
class=3D"">Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>Monday, January 13, =
2020 at 4:35 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, "<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Txauth] =
alternative charter writeup<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">I =
agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand the =
motivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">This =
group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization =
protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely =
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, =
an extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, where the protocol =
is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization =
server, this protocol will be initiated by the client directly =
interacting with the authorization server, which will mitigate many of =
the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">On =
Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none =
none =
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">While =
I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this from the =
perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or listened =
to Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to see what =
the point of this group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d expect =
this charter to provide at least a cursory explanation of what problem =
it is trying to solve. In this case, the problem should be partially =
defined in relation to OAuth. What will this WG do that the OAuth WG =
hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">How =
about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">The =
protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical =
challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels between =
the client and the authorization server, and minimizing the amount of =
information transmitted over untrusted channels.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">=E2=80=93&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">AWS Identity</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
style=3D"border-style:solid none =
none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt =
0in 0in" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" =
class=3D"">Txauth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>Friday, January 10, =
2020 at 6:57 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Txauth] =
alternative charter writeup</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">This =
looks even better! Thanks Justin.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">What =
do others think of the proposed charter now?&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><img border=3D"0" =
id=3D"m_-6821204497648159462gmail-m_-4282952497863071934_x005f_x0000_i1026=
" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3Dc2542a73-9b36-42f1-b091-b07ceade1=
8ee" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Euphemia =
UCAS&quot;,sans-serif;color:white" class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">On =
Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none =
none =
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">Thanks,=
 Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on =
everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, =
so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, =
incorporating some of your points below:<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:5pt 0in 5pt 30pt" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">This =
group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, =
authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing =
party to delegate access to client software through an authorization =
server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely =
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID =
Connect.&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">The =
delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be =
initiated by the client interacting directly with the authorization =
server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client =
redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the =
authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated =
by the protocol.&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
Fine-grained specification of resource access<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
Delegation between multiple users<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">The =
group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pieces =
of information used in authorization decisions<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for =
management of the protocol lifecycle including:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
Discovery of the authorization server<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
Revocation of active tokens<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
Query of token rights by resource servers<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or =
expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, =
the group will&nbsp;attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for =
communication between the client and the authorization server, the =
working group will seek to take advantage of optimization features of =
HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to&nbsp;enable simple mapping to other =
protocols such as COAP.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">On =
Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">Hey<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">I've =
written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the feedback =
on Justin's charter.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">I =
found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of =
ideas.&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">Key =
ideas:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- The =
client interacts directly with the authorization server.&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">/Dick<u=
 class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">----<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">This =
group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization =
protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely =
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. =
In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is =
initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization server, =
this protocol will be initiated by the client directly interacting with =
the authorization server..<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Additionally, the protocol will allow:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
fine-grained specification of resource access<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- the =
user to approve requests for identity claims and access to multiple =
resources in one interaction<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The group will define extension points for this protocol to =
allow for flexibility in areas including:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">- discovery of the authorization server<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">- =
user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token =
presentation mechanisms and key bindings<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or =
expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, =
they will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, =
and strive to reuse existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth =
2.0 scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for =
communication between the client and the authorization server, the =
working group will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols =
such as COAP.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><img =
border=3D"0" =
id=3D"m_-6821204497648159462gmail-m_-4282952497863071934_x005f_x0000_i1025=
" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D4100f11c-15ca-4d45-bbd2-c02996582=
1fb" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Euphemia =
UCAS&quot;,sans-serif;color:white" class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">--<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">Txauth mailing =
list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a></div></div></b=
lockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></=
div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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> Am 16.01.2020 um 16:45 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>:
>=20
> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single interacti=
on

This sounds a bit incomplete to me. I assume the user would approve =E2=80=9E=
the attestation of identity claims=E2=80=9C. I furthermore think the user wo=
uld approve =E2=80=9Eaccess to multiple APIs=E2=80=9C. I would prefer API ov=
er resource because it is more universal. For example, the protocol could al=
so be used to create resources.=

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 11:43:11 -0500
From: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
CC: Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <40DEDA03-58E1-46EE-A46E-15D448283762@hardjono.net>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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Looks good, but I have a clarification question:

>>> - Delegation between multiple users

What does this mean exactly?

Is it the "multi-hop" delegation (Alice to Bob to Charlize to ...)

Or does it only the "1-hop" delegation concurrently (Alice to Bob; Alice to=
 Charlize; Alice to...)


-- thomas --



=EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer <jricher@=
mit.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 10:46 AM
To: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
Cc: "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@a=
mazon.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com=
>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup

Here=E2=80=99s my updated text incorporating the feedback so far:


This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, auth=
orization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to =
delegate access to client software through an authorization server. The use =
cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases curr=
ently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0) =
as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.


The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the protoc=
ol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple the interact=
ion channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from the delegation channel,=
 which happens directly between the client and the authorization server (in =
contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=
=80=99s browser). The client will involve the authorizing party as necessary thr=
ough interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This decoupling avoid=
s many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as wel=
l as providing a non-invasive path for supporting future types of clients an=
d interaction channels.


Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:


- Fine-grained specification of resource access

- Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single interactio=
n

- Delegation between multiple users

- Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types of cli=
ent applications


The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexi=
bility in areas including:


- Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of possessi=
on=20

- User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods

- Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pieces o=
f information used in authorization decisions

- Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings


Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the proto=
col lifecycle including:


- Discovery of the authorization server

- Revocation of active tokens

- Query of token rights by resource servers


Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be bac=
kwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will attempt t=
o simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol whe=
re possible.


While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between t=
he client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to take =
advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and wi=
ll strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.





It=E2=80=99s definitely a lot, but I think we=E2=80=99ve got a good handle on what we=E2=80=
=99re working on, and what the boundaries are. I think this is both too much o=
f an effort and too much of a break to do this in the OAuth WG, where there=E2=
=80=99s already still plenty of work to be done. We=E2=80=99re leaning a lot on lesson=
s learned from the OAuth 2 world and its extensions, including OIDC and UMA2=
. We=E2=80=99ve got the attention of a lot of the right people to start this as we=
ll.

So to the AD=E2=80=99s: Ben and Roman =E2=80=94 what=E2=80=99s the next step? This should be =
a new working group and like to get it started so that we can have our first=
 meeting in Vancouver.

 =E2=80=94 Justin


On Jan 14, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

Sounds good to me.

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:


I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s framing of it =
in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why we=E2=80=99re doing it in rela=
tion to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of the key things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99re =
making a break from OAuth 2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for very spec=
ific reasons.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin


On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.co=
m> wrote:

It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I the key thing to=
 emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation channels, which ad=
dresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues and also provides a pa=
th to support future delegation channel types without significant changes to=
 the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where extensions like Device Flow and PAR i=
ntroduce substantial changes to the core protocol flow on both client and AS=
). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99t assuming a particular front channel, it=E2=80=99s ea=
sier to add support for a new one.
=20
Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:
This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization p=
rotocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deploy=
ed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, an extens=
ion of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be decoupled from delegation channels s=
uch as an end user=E2=80=99s web browser and operate primarily through a channel b=
etween the client and the authorization server, avoiding many of the securit=
y concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invasiv=
e path for adding support for future types of clients and delegation channel=
s.
=20
=E2=80=93=20
Annabelle Richard Backman
AWS Identity

=20
=20
From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM
To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup

=20

I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand the motiv=
ations. How about this change to the first paragraph?

=20

This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization p=
rotocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deploy=
ed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, an extens=
ion of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, where the protocol is initiated =
by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization server, this protocol =
will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorization =
server, which will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical chal=
lenges of OAuth 2.0.

=20


=20
On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon=
.com> wrote:


While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this from th=
e perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or listened to Justi=
n=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to see what the point of this group =
is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d expect this charter to provide at least =
a cursory explanation of what problem it is trying to solve. In this case, t=
he problem should be partially defined in relation to OAuth. What will this =
WG do that the OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?
=20
How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:
=20
The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical chal=
lenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels between the client=
 and the authorization server, and minimizing the amount of information tran=
smitted over untrusted channels.
=20
=E2=80=93=20
Annabelle Richard Backman
AWS Identity

=20
=20
From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@=
gmail.com>
Date: Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup

=20

This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
=20

What do others think of the proposed charter now?=20


=E1=90=A7

=20
On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:


Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on everyone=E2=80=
=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, so this timing is he=
lpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, incorporating some of your poin=
ts below:=20
=20


This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, auth=
orization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to =
delegate access to client software through an authorization server. The use =
cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases curr=
ently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.=20

=20

The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the protoc=
ol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiated by the c=
lient interacting directly with the authorization server (in contrast with O=
Auth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). T=
he client will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interactio=
n mechanisms indicated by the protocol.=20

=20

Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:

=20

- Fine-grained specification of resource access

- Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single interactio=
n

- Delegation between multiple users

- Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications

=20

The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexi=
bility in areas including:

=20

- Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of possessi=
on=20

- User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods

- Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pieces o=
f information used in authorization decisions

- Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings

=20

Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the proto=
col lifecycle including:

=20

- Discovery of the authorization server

- Revocation of active tokens

- Query of token rights by resource servers

=20

Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be bac=
kwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will attempt t=
o simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol whe=
re possible.

While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between t=
he client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to take =
advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to en=
able simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.

=20



On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

=20
Hey
=20

I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the feedba=
ck on Justin's charter.

=20

I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of idea=
s.=20

=20

Key ideas:

=20

- This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.

=20

- The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=20

=20

/Dick

=20

----
=20

This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization p=
rotocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deplo=
yed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. In contr=
ast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiated by redi=
recting the user's browser to an authorization server, this protocol will be=
 initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorization server.=
.


Additionally, the protocol will allow:

- fine-grained specification of resource access

- the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to multiple r=
esources in one interaction

- web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications

- taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3


The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexi=
bility in areas including:


- discovery of the authorization server

- cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of possessi=
on=20

- user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token pres=
entation mechanisms and key bindings


Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be bac=
kwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt to sim=
plify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse existin=
g semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access tokens, =
and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.


While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between t=
he client and the authorization server, the working group will strive to ena=
ble simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
=20

=20




=E1=90=A7

--=20
Txauth mailing list
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
































--=20
Txauth mailing list
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth



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On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> Am 16.01.2020 um 16:45 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>:
>>=20
>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
>=20
> This sounds a bit incomplete to me. I assume the user would approve =
=E2=80=9Ethe attestation of identity claims=E2=80=9C. I furthermore =
think the user would approve =E2=80=9Eaccess to multiple APIs=E2=80=9C. =
I would prefer API over resource because it is more universal. For =
example, the protocol could also be used to create resources.

Point taken, but this isn=E2=80=99t meant to be an exhaustive list of =
what it can do, merely the list of things we=E2=80=99re positive we want =
it to do. I also prefer =E2=80=9CAPI=E2=80=9D over =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=
=9D, but concede that =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D can be a writeable =
thing too. Even then I=E2=80=99m happy to tweak the language here.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin=


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On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Looks good, but I have a clarification question:
>=20
>>>> - Delegation between multiple users
>=20
> What does this mean exactly?
>=20
> Is it the "multi-hop" delegation (Alice to Bob to Charlize to ...)
>=20
> Or does it only the "1-hop" delegation concurrently (Alice to Bob; =
Alice to Charlize; Alice to=E2=80=A6)

My thinking was that at the very least we want to allow the person =
running the client software and the person doing the authorization to be =
different people. This is the UMA use case (Alice to bob) and the CIBA =
use case (agent getting someone to log in). I think chaining can follow =
that, where Bob can then let Charlie do something. This is also along =
the lines of the token exchange model of OAuth 2, with continuously =
down-scoped access.

What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy =
processing.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin

>=20
> -- thomas --
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu>
> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 10:46 AM
> To: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> Cc: "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" =
<richanna@amazon.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>=20
> Here=E2=80=99s my updated text incorporating the feedback so far:
>=20
>=20
> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, =
authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing =
party to delegate access to client software through an authorization =
server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely =
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect =
(an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by =
OAuth 2.0.
>=20
>=20
> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple =
the interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from =
the delegation channel, which happens directly between the client and =
the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by =
the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will =
involve the authorizing party as necessary through interaction =
mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This decoupling avoids many of the =
security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as =
providing a non-invasive path for supporting future types of clients and =
interaction channels.
>=20
>=20
> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>=20
>=20
> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>=20
> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
>=20
> - Delegation between multiple users
>=20
> - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types =
of client applications
>=20
>=20
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:
>=20
>=20
> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>=20
> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>=20
> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
>=20
> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>=20
>=20
> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the =
protocol lifecycle including:
>=20
>=20
> - Discovery of the authorization server
>=20
> - Revocation of active tokens
>=20
> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>=20
>=20
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new =
protocol where possible.
>=20
>=20
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where =
possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols =
such as COAP.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s definitely a lot, but I think we=E2=80=99ve got a good =
handle on what we=E2=80=99re working on, and what the boundaries are. I =
think this is both too much of an effort and too much of a break to do =
this in the OAuth WG, where there=E2=80=99s already still plenty of work =
to be done. We=E2=80=99re leaning a lot on lessons learned from the =
OAuth 2 world and its extensions, including OIDC and UMA2. We=E2=80=99ve =
got the attention of a lot of the right people to start this as well.
>=20
> So to the AD=E2=80=99s: Ben and Roman =E2=80=94 what=E2=80=99s the =
next step? This should be a new working group and like to get it started =
so that we can have our first meeting in Vancouver.
>=20
> =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>=20
> On Jan 14, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Sounds good to me.
>=20
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s =
framing of it in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why =
we=E2=80=99re doing it in relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of =
the key things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99re making a break from OAuth =
2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for very specific reasons.=20
>=20
> =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>=20
> On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I the =
key thing to emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation =
channels, which addresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues =
and also provides a path to support future delegation channel types =
without significant changes to the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where =
extensions like Device Flow and PAR introduce substantial changes to the =
core protocol flow on both client and AS). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99=
t assuming a particular front channel, it=E2=80=99s easier to add =
support for a new one.
>=20
> Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be =
decoupled from delegation channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s web =
browser and operate primarily through a channel between the client and =
the authorization server, avoiding many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invasive path for =
adding support for future types of clients and delegation channels.
>=20
> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM
> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" =
<txauth@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand the =
motivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, =
where the protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server, which will mitigate =
many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this =
from the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or =
listened to Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to =
see what the point of this group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d=
 expect this charter to provide at least a cursory explanation of what =
problem it is trying to solve. In this case, the problem should be =
partially defined in relation to OAuth. What will this WG do that the =
OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?
>=20
> How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:
>=20
> The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical =
challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels between =
the client and the authorization server, and minimizing the amount of =
information transmitted over untrusted channels.
>=20
> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> Date: Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM
> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
>=20
>=20
> What do others think of the proposed charter now?=20
>=20
>=20
> =E1=90=A7
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on =
everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, =
so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, =
incorporating some of your points below:=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, =
authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing =
party to delegate access to client software through an authorization =
server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely =
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.=20=

>=20
>=20
>=20
> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be =
initiated by the client interacting directly with the authorization =
server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client =
redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the =
authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated =
by the protocol.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>=20
> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
>=20
> - Delegation between multiple users
>=20
> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>=20
> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>=20
> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
>=20
> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the =
protocol lifecycle including:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - Discovery of the authorization server
>=20
> - Revocation of active tokens
>=20
> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new =
protocol where possible.
>=20
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and =
will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Hey
>=20
>=20
> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the =
feedback on Justin's charter.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of =
ideas.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Key ideas:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> /Dick
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----
>=20
>=20
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the =
protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server..
>=20
>=20
> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
>=20
> - fine-grained specification of resource access
>=20
> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to =
multiple resources in one interaction
>=20
> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
>=20
> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>=20
>=20
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:
>=20
>=20
> - discovery of the authorization server
>=20
> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>=20
> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token =
presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>=20
>=20
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and =
strive to reuse existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 =
scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>=20
>=20
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
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I think that=E2=80=99s exactly the reason =E2=80=94 the case of getting =
information about the user directly from the TX endpoint is well =
established. People don=E2=80=99t want to make another round trip just =
to figure out who=E2=80=99s there, when a lot of time that=E2=80=99s the =
first thing they care about, and then the=E2=80=99d make the =
determination of whether to follow other APIs after that.=20

So if I can send you a very basic set of authn info from the callback, =
like an identifier and VoT style login information, then you can figure =
out if you need to know more about that user or not. But these basic =
claims do get elevated to the same level as other returned artifacts =
from the transaction, like the access tokens.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> The only reason I can think of to single out identity within the =
charter is if there is some work or feature that is within scope for the =
working group, but only for identity claims (e.g., returning identity =
claims from the transaction endpoint). Repeating a question I posed =
earlier, what is it about identity claims that make them worthy of =
special consideration?
>=20
> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
>=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 1/16/20, 8:51 AM, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
>    On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Am 16.01.2020 um 16:45 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>:
>>>=20
>>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
>>=20
>> This sounds a bit incomplete to me. I assume the user would approve =
=E2=80=9Ethe attestation of identity claims=E2=80=9C. I furthermore =
think the user would approve =E2=80=9Eaccess to multiple APIs=E2=80=9C. =
I would prefer API over resource because it is more universal. For =
example, the protocol could also be used to create resources.
>=20
>    Point taken, but this isn=E2=80=99t meant to be an exhaustive list =
of what it can do, merely the list of things we=E2=80=99re positive we =
want it to do. I also prefer =E2=80=9CAPI=E2=80=9D over =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=
=80=9D, but concede that =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D can be a writeable =
thing too. Even then I=E2=80=99m happy to tweak the language here.=20
>=20
>     =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20


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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
CC: Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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The problem is that the word "delegation" is generally a very loaded term.

I understand that WGs need wiggle room, but I'm concerned that this kind of=
 loose wording may cause confusion down the road.



>> What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy processing=
.

Agree.



=EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer <jricher@=
mit.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:54 AM
To: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
Cc: "hardjono@mit.edu" <hardjono@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.o=
rg>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup

On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net> wr=
ote:
>=20
>=20
> Looks good, but I have a clarification question:
>=20
>>>> - Delegation between multiple users
>=20
> What does this mean exactly?
>=20
> Is it the "multi-hop" delegation (Alice to Bob to Charlize to ...)
>=20
> Or does it only the "1-hop" delegation concurrently (Alice to Bob; Alice =
to Charlize; Alice to=E2=80=A6)

My thinking was that at the very least we want to allow the person running =
the client software and the person doing the authorization to be different p=
eople. This is the UMA use case (Alice to bob) and the CIBA use case (agent =
getting someone to log in). I think chaining can follow that, where Bob can =
then let Charlie do something. This is also along the lines of the token exc=
hange model of OAuth 2, with continuously down-scoped access.

What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy processing.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin

>=20
> -- thomas --
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer <jriche=
r@mit.edu>
> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 10:46 AM
> To: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> Cc: "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=
@amazon.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.c=
om>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>=20
> Here=E2=80=99s my updated text incorporating the feedback so far:
>=20
>=20
> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, au=
thorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party t=
o delegate access to client software through an authorization server. The us=
e cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases cu=
rrently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0=
) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.
>=20
>=20
> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the prot=
ocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple the intera=
ction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from the delegation channe=
l, which happens directly between the client and the authorization server (i=
n contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the use=
r=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the authorizing party as necessary t=
hrough interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This decoupling avo=
ids many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as w=
ell as providing a non-invasive path for supporting future types of clients =
and interaction channels.
>=20
>=20
> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>=20
>=20
> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>=20
> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single interact=
ion
>=20
> - Delegation between multiple users
>=20
> - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types of c=
lient applications
>=20
>=20
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for fle=
xibility in areas including:
>=20
>=20
> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of posses=
sion=20
>=20
> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>=20
> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pieces=
 of information used in authorization decisions
>=20
> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>=20
>=20
> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the pro=
tocol lifecycle including:
>=20
>=20
> - Discovery of the authorization server
>=20
> - Revocation of active tokens
>=20
> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>=20
>=20
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be b=
ackwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will attempt=
 to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol w=
here possible.
>=20
>=20
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between=
 the client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to tak=
e advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and =
will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s definitely a lot, but I think we=E2=80=99ve got a good handle on what we=
=E2=80=99re working on, and what the boundaries are. I think this is both too much=
 of an effort and too much of a break to do this in the OAuth WG, where ther=
e=E2=80=99s already still plenty of work to be done. We=E2=80=99re leaning a lot on less=
ons learned from the OAuth 2 world and its extensions, including OIDC and UM=
A2. We=E2=80=99ve got the attention of a lot of the right people to start this as =
well.
>=20
> So to the AD=E2=80=99s: Ben and Roman =E2=80=94 what=E2=80=99s the next step? This should b=
e a new working group and like to get it started so that we can have our fir=
st meeting in Vancouver.
>=20
> =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>=20
> On Jan 14, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Sounds good to me.
>=20
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s framing of i=
t in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why we=E2=80=99re doing it in re=
lation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of the key things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99r=
e making a break from OAuth 2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for very sp=
ecific reasons.=20
>=20
> =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>=20
> On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.=
com> wrote:
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I the key thing =
to emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation channels, which =
addresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues and also provides a =
path to support future delegation channel types without significant changes =
to the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where extensions like Device Flow and PAR=
 introduce substantial changes to the core protocol flow on both client and =
AS). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99t assuming a particular front channel, it=E2=80=99s =
easier to add support for a new one.
>=20
> Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization=
 protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely depl=
oyed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, an exte=
nsion of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be decoupled from delegation channels=
 such as an end user=E2=80=99s web browser and operate primarily through a channel=
 between the client and the authorization server, avoiding many of the secur=
ity concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invas=
ive path for adding support for future types of clients and delegation chann=
els.
>=20
> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM
> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand the mot=
ivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization=
 protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely depl=
oyed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, an exte=
nsion of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, where the protocol is initiate=
d by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization server, this protoco=
l will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorizatio=
n server, which will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical ch=
allenges of OAuth 2.0.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amaz=
on.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this from =
the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or listened to Jus=
tin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to see what the point of this grou=
p is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d expect this charter to provide at leas=
t a cursory explanation of what problem it is trying to solve. In this case,=
 the problem should be partially defined in relation to OAuth. What will thi=
s WG do that the OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?
>=20
> How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:
>=20
> The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical ch=
allenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels between the clie=
nt and the authorization server, and minimizing the amount of information tr=
ansmitted over untrusted channels.
>=20
> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <dick.hard=
t@gmail.com>
> Date: Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM
> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
>=20
>=20
> What do others think of the proposed charter now?=20
>=20
>=20
> =E1=90=A7
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on everyone=
=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, so this timing is =
helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, incorporating some of your po=
ints below:=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, au=
thorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party t=
o delegate access to client software through an authorization server. The us=
e cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases cu=
rrently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the prot=
ocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiated by the=
 client interacting directly with the authorization server (in contrast with=
 OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser).=
 The client will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interact=
ion mechanisms indicated by the protocol.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>=20
> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single interact=
ion
>=20
> - Delegation between multiple users
>=20
> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for fle=
xibility in areas including:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of posses=
sion=20
>=20
> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>=20
> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pieces=
 of information used in authorization decisions
>=20
> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the pro=
tocol lifecycle including:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - Discovery of the authorization server
>=20
> - Revocation of active tokens
>=20
> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be b=
ackwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will attempt=
 to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol w=
here possible.
>=20
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between=
 the client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to tak=
e advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to =
enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Hey
>=20
>=20
> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the feed=
back on Justin's charter.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of id=
eas.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Key ideas:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> /Dick
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----
>=20
>=20
> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorization=
 protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely dep=
loyed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. In con=
trast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiated by re=
directing the user's browser to an authorization server, this protocol will =
be initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorization serve=
r..
>=20
>=20
> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
>=20
> - fine-grained specification of resource access
>=20
> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to multiple=
 resources in one interaction
>=20
> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
>=20
> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>=20
>=20
> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for fle=
xibility in areas including:
>=20
>=20
> - discovery of the authorization server
>=20
> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of posses=
sion=20
>=20
> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token pr=
esentation mechanisms and key bindings
>=20
>=20
> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be b=
ackwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt to s=
implify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse exist=
ing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access tokens=
, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>=20
>=20
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between=
 the client and the authorization server, the working group will strive to e=
nable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =E1=90=A7
>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

--=20
Txauth mailing list
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth



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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
CC: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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References: <857A822F-E819-443E-8D92-5A5BD682D3AF@mit.edu> <3CC78FFE-8115-4693-8FEF-EC9B9BDDD786@lodderstedt.net>
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 14:31:17 -0800
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To: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>
Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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--000000000000de1ade059c4962d7
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I think of the resource as a container that has certain capabilities. An
early use case for delegation was for access to Flickr photos. Write access
to upload new photos was a capability.

An example of a resource without an API is where the client is also the
resource, and has delegated authorization to the AS. For example, you can
imagine a photo copier where you scan a QR code that send you to an AS that
then returns an artifact to the client how the user is authorized to use
the photo copier.
=E1=90=A7

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 8:15 AM Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.ne=
t>
wrote:

>
>
> > Am 16.01.2020 um 16:45 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>:
> >
> > - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single
> interaction
>
> This sounds a bit incomplete to me. I assume the user would approve =E2=
=80=9Ethe
> attestation of identity claims=E2=80=9C. I furthermore think the user wou=
ld approve
> =E2=80=9Eaccess to multiple APIs=E2=80=9C. I would prefer API over resour=
ce because it is
> more universal. For example, the protocol could also be used to create
> resources.

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I think of the resource as a container that has certain ca=
pabilities. An early use case for delegation was for access to Flickr photo=
s. Write access to upload new photos was a capability.=C2=A0<div><br></div>=
<div>An example of a resource without an API is where the client is also th=
e resource, and has delegated authorization to the AS. For example, you can=
 imagine a photo copier where you scan a QR code that send you to an AS tha=
t then returns an artifact to the client how the user is authorized to use =
the photo copier.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" sty=
le=3D"max-height:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overf=
low:hidden" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkd=
EBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3Ddba26a9b-6681-486a-b28c=
-93602b93da2a"><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7</font></div><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, J=
an 16, 2020 at 8:15 AM Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:torsten@lo=
dderstedt.net">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
&gt; Am 16.01.2020 um 16:45 schrieb Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri=
cher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single inter=
action<br>
<br>
This sounds a bit incomplete to me. I assume the user would approve =E2=80=
=9Ethe attestation of identity claims=E2=80=9C. I furthermore think the use=
r would approve =E2=80=9Eaccess to multiple APIs=E2=80=9C. I would prefer A=
PI over resource because it is more universal. For example, the protocol co=
uld also be used to create resources.</blockquote></div>

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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 17:49:47 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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I=E2=80=99m cautiously Ok with having resource inlining be in scope =E2=80=
=94 IF we can generalize it from the identity case specifically.

To do what you=E2=80=99re asking for though, the WG can still be =
chartered to solve identity (which we know is a well-established and =
understood use case), but also allow other things.=20

This gets back to a fundamental question that I don=E2=80=99t have a =
clear answer for yet: what do you get back at the end of a transaction? =
Right now we=E2=80=99ve got a clear call for three things:

1. Access tokens to call APIs
2. Transaction handles to continue the transaction later (like a refresh =
token but better)
3. User identity claims

Maybe the mechanism we use for #3 can be generalized, or maybe there=E2=80=
=99s even a good way to provide switches for #1, #2, and #3.=20

And while we=E2=80=99re on the topic of #3, I think there=E2=80=99s a =
strong case to be made that it should NOT be a user=E2=80=99s profile =
information, but rather just enough information to identify the user to =
the RP. If the RP wants to pull more profile info, it can do so via an =
API. This keeps us out of the anti-pattern that SAML has of always =
sending all claims about a user whether the RP needs them or not. But =
the RP will at least need to know if it has to request the claims, and =
we can do that by a simple enough structure like:

user: {
  =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Chttp://foo.bar/=E2=80=9C,
  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9C12387yhjfre=E2=80=9D,
  =E2=80=9Clast_updated=E2=80=9D: 54239084
}


You can add VoT and other things that can vary per-login here as well. =
But I shouldn=E2=80=99t be sending you the user=E2=80=99s name and =
address every time they log in =E2=80=94 as an RP you only need to get =
that if it=E2=80=99s a new account or if it=E2=80=99s been updated since =
you last saw it. You can=E2=80=99t handle that if you=E2=80=99re pushing =
all the claims in the response: Since the RP doesn=E2=80=99t know who =
the user is until after this stage, it can=E2=80=99t tell that =
information to the IdP ahead of time and therefore the IdP is forced to =
always send it just in case the RP might need it. But by telling the RP =
an identifier for the user and a tag of when any of their information =
was last updated I can make the decision whether or not to pull =
information at the RP in an intelligent fashion if I want to.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 5:29 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> The same could be said for any resource, particularly in scenarios =
where the interaction was kicked off so that the SP can perform a =
specific action initiated by the user (e.g., charging a credit card or =
account, publishing a message to a message board or social media feed, =
retrieving a specific document or image).
>=20
> Consider a flow like the following:
> 1. The end user is on a client website that provides a photo printing =
service, clicks the "Print from CloudStorageProvider" button.
> 4. The client initates TxAuth via CloudStorageProvider's transaction =
endpoint, requesting a URL for a photo to be selected by the end user.
> 5. CloudStorageProvider returns an interact_url pointing to its AS.
> 6. The client redirects the user agent to the AS.
> 7. The end user signs in, and selects the photo they want to print, =
and confirms authorization to share with the client.
> 8. The AS redirects the user agent back to client.
> 9. The client calls back to CloudStorageProvider's transaction =
endpoint to continue the TxAuth transaction.
> 10. CloudStorageProvider returns confirmation that the authorization =
was granted, along with the URL for the selected photo.
>=20
> This is identical to the identity use case, we've just replaced =
identity claims with a URL to a photo. I see a lot of value in =
encouraging one-time authorization of specific actions like this, and if =
we're going to support inlining of resources for identity claims anyway, =
it's not a big stretch to allow for arbitrary resource types. I do think =
it's fair to narrowly scope the kinds of resource *schemas* the WG will =
define (e.g., defining core identity claims like OIDC did), but the =
inlining mechanism should be flexible (e.g., not limiting this to claims =
about the end user identity, like OIDC did).
>=20
> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
>=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 1/16/20, 12:59 PM, "Txauth on behalf of Justin Richer" =
<txauth-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
>    I think that=E2=80=99s exactly the reason =E2=80=94 the case of =
getting information about the user directly from the TX endpoint is well =
established. People don=E2=80=99t want to make another round trip just =
to figure out who=E2=80=99s there, when a lot of time that=E2=80=99s the =
first thing they care about, and then the=E2=80=99d make the =
determination of whether to follow other APIs after that.=20
>=20
>    So if I can send you a very basic set of authn info from the =
callback, like an identifier and VoT style login information, then you =
can figure out if you need to know more about that user or not. But =
these basic claims do get elevated to the same level as other returned =
artifacts from the transaction, like the access tokens.
>=20
>     =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>> On Jan 16, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> The only reason I can think of to single out identity within the =
charter is if there is some work or feature that is within scope for the =
working group, but only for identity claims (e.g., returning identity =
claims from the transaction endpoint). Repeating a question I posed =
earlier, what is it about identity claims that make them worthy of =
special consideration?
>>=20
>> =E2=80=93=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> AWS Identity
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 1/16/20, 8:51 AM, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>=20
>>   On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Am 16.01.2020 um 16:45 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>:
>>>>=20
>>>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
>>>=20
>>> This sounds a bit incomplete to me. I assume the user would approve =
=E2=80=9Ethe attestation of identity claims=E2=80=9C. I furthermore =
think the user would approve =E2=80=9Eaccess to multiple APIs=E2=80=9C. =
I would prefer API over resource because it is more universal. For =
example, the protocol could also be used to create resources.
>>=20
>>   Point taken, but this isn=E2=80=99t meant to be an exhaustive list =
of what it can do, merely the list of things we=E2=80=99re positive we =
want it to do. I also prefer =E2=80=9CAPI=E2=80=9D over =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=
=80=9D, but concede that =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D can be a writeable =
thing too. Even then I=E2=80=99m happy to tweak the language here.=20
>>=20
>>    =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>=20
>    --=20
>    Txauth mailing list
>    Txauth@ietf.org
>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>=20
>=20


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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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To: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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I get that, but that=E2=80=99s why the proposed charter text tries to be =
very explicit about who is delegating to whom (or what) and for what =
purpose. That=E2=80=99s why delegation to software and delegation =
between users are both listed separately.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Thomas Hardjono =
<ietf-txauth@hardjono.net> wrote:
>=20
> The problem is that the word "delegation" is generally a very loaded =
term.
>=20
> I understand that WGs need wiggle room, but I'm concerned that this =
kind of loose wording may cause confusion down the road.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>> What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy =
processing.
>=20
> Agree.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu>
> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:54 AM
> To: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
> Cc: "hardjono@mit.edu" <hardjono@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" =
<txauth@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>=20
> On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Thomas Hardjono =
<ietf-txauth@hardjono.net> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Looks good, but I have a clarification question:
>>=20
>>>>> - Delegation between multiple users
>>=20
>> What does this mean exactly?
>>=20
>> Is it the "multi-hop" delegation (Alice to Bob to Charlize to ...)
>>=20
>> Or does it only the "1-hop" delegation concurrently (Alice to Bob; =
Alice to Charlize; Alice to=E2=80=A6)
>=20
> My thinking was that at the very least we want to allow the person =
running the client software and the person doing the authorization to be =
different people. This is the UMA use case (Alice to bob) and the CIBA =
use case (agent getting someone to log in). I think chaining can follow =
that, where Bob can then let Charlie do something. This is also along =
the lines of the token exchange model of OAuth 2, with continuously =
down-scoped access.
>=20
> What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy =
processing.=20
>=20
> =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>>=20
>> -- thomas --
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
>> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu>
>> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 10:46 AM
>> To: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
>> Cc: "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" =
<richanna@amazon.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>>=20
>> Here=E2=80=99s my updated text incorporating the feedback so far:
>>=20
>>=20
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
identity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not =
enabled by OAuth 2.0.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple =
the interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from =
the delegation channel, which happens directly between the client and =
the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by =
the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will =
involve the authorizing party as necessary through interaction =
mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This decoupling avoids many of the =
security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as =
providing a non-invasive path for supporting future types of clients and =
interaction channels.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>>=20
>>=20
>> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>>=20
>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
>>=20
>> - Delegation between multiple users
>>=20
>> - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types =
of client applications
>>=20
>>=20
>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:
>>=20
>>=20
>> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>>=20
>> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>>=20
>> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
>>=20
>> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>=20
>>=20
>> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the =
protocol lifecycle including:
>>=20
>>=20
>> - Discovery of the authorization server
>>=20
>> - Revocation of active tokens
>>=20
>> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>>=20
>>=20
>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new =
protocol where possible.
>>=20
>>=20
>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where =
possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols =
such as COAP.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s definitely a lot, but I think we=E2=80=99ve got a good =
handle on what we=E2=80=99re working on, and what the boundaries are. I =
think this is both too much of an effort and too much of a break to do =
this in the OAuth WG, where there=E2=80=99s already still plenty of work =
to be done. We=E2=80=99re leaning a lot on lessons learned from the =
OAuth 2 world and its extensions, including OIDC and UMA2. We=E2=80=99ve =
got the attention of a lot of the right people to start this as well.
>>=20
>> So to the AD=E2=80=99s: Ben and Roman =E2=80=94 what=E2=80=99s the =
next step? This should be a new working group and like to get it started =
so that we can have our first meeting in Vancouver.
>>=20
>> =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Jan 14, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>> Sounds good to me.
>>=20
>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s =
framing of it in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why =
we=E2=80=99re doing it in relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of =
the key things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99re making a break from OAuth =
2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for very specific reasons.=20
>>=20
>> =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I the =
key thing to emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation =
channels, which addresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues =
and also provides a path to support future delegation channel types =
without significant changes to the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where =
extensions like Device Flow and PAR introduce substantial changes to the =
core protocol flow on both client and AS). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99=
t assuming a particular front channel, it=E2=80=99s easier to add =
support for a new one.
>>=20
>> Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be =
decoupled from delegation channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s web =
browser and operate primarily through a channel between the client and =
the authorization server, avoiding many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invasive path for =
adding support for future types of clients and delegation channels.
>>=20
>> =E2=80=93=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> AWS Identity
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM
>> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
>> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" =
<txauth@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand the =
motivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, =
where the protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server, which will mitigate =
many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this =
from the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or =
listened to Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to =
see what the point of this group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d=
 expect this charter to provide at least a cursory explanation of what =
problem it is trying to solve. In this case, the problem should be =
partially defined in relation to OAuth. What will this WG do that the =
OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?
>>=20
>> How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:
>>=20
>> The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels =
between the client and the authorization server, and minimizing the =
amount of information transmitted over untrusted channels.
>>=20
>> =E2=80=93=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> AWS Identity
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> Date: Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM
>> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
>> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
>>=20
>>=20
>> What do others think of the proposed charter now?=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =E1=90=A7
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based =
on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today =
anyway, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new =
charter, incorporating some of your points below:=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
identity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be =
initiated by the client interacting directly with the authorization =
server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client =
redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the =
authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated =
by the protocol.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>>=20
>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
>>=20
>> - Delegation between multiple users
>>=20
>> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>>=20
>> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>>=20
>> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
>>=20
>> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the =
protocol lifecycle including:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> - Discovery of the authorization server
>>=20
>> - Revocation of active tokens
>>=20
>> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new =
protocol where possible.
>>=20
>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and =
will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Hey
>>=20
>>=20
>> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the =
feedback on Justin's charter.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace =
of ideas.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Key ideas:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use =
cases.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> /Dick
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ----
>>=20
>>=20
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the =
protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server..
>>=20
>>=20
>> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
>>=20
>> - fine-grained specification of resource access
>>=20
>> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to =
multiple resources in one interaction
>>=20
>> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
>>=20
>> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>>=20
>>=20
>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:
>>=20
>>=20
>> - discovery of the authorization server
>>=20
>> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>>=20
>> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- =
token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>=20
>>=20
>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and =
strive to reuse existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 =
scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>>=20
>>=20
>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =E1=90=A7
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>=20
>=20


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 15:00:04 -0800
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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>,  "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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I was thinking that other kinds of delegation results would be yet another
top level request, and matching response. Since it is not a widely deployed
use case today, it would be an extension to the core protocol.

Justin:  What to you mean by VoT?

wrt. returning claims, vs access to claims, I think it is an important
discussion -- but let's put a pin in that for discussion in the WG once we
are formed! I don't think that needs to be in the charter, but happy to be
convinced otherwise.
=E1=90=A7

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 2:49 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> I=E2=80=99m cautiously Ok with having resource inlining be in scope =E2=
=80=94 IF we can
> generalize it from the identity case specifically.
>
> To do what you=E2=80=99re asking for though, the WG can still be chartere=
d to
> solve identity (which we know is a well-established and understood use
> case), but also allow other things.
>
> This gets back to a fundamental question that I don=E2=80=99t have a clea=
r answer
> for yet: what do you get back at the end of a transaction? Right now we=
=E2=80=99ve
> got a clear call for three things:
>
> 1. Access tokens to call APIs
> 2. Transaction handles to continue the transaction later (like a refresh
> token but better)
> 3. User identity claims
>
> Maybe the mechanism we use for #3 can be generalized, or maybe there=E2=
=80=99s
> even a good way to provide switches for #1, #2, and #3.
>
> And while we=E2=80=99re on the topic of #3, I think there=E2=80=99s a str=
ong case to be
> made that it should NOT be a user=E2=80=99s profile information, but rath=
er just
> enough information to identify the user to the RP. If the RP wants to pul=
l
> more profile info, it can do so via an API. This keeps us out of the
> anti-pattern that SAML has of always sending all claims about a user
> whether the RP needs them or not. But the RP will at least need to know i=
f
> it has to request the claims, and we can do that by a simple enough
> structure like:
>
> user: {
>   =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Chttp://foo.bar/=E2=80=9C,
>   =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9C12387yhjfre=E2=80=9D,
>   =E2=80=9Clast_updated=E2=80=9D: 54239084
> }
>
>
> You can add VoT and other things that can vary per-login here as well. Bu=
t
> I shouldn=E2=80=99t be sending you the user=E2=80=99s name and address ev=
ery time they log
> in =E2=80=94 as an RP you only need to get that if it=E2=80=99s a new acc=
ount or if it=E2=80=99s
> been updated since you last saw it. You can=E2=80=99t handle that if you=
=E2=80=99re pushing
> all the claims in the response: Since the RP doesn=E2=80=99t know who the=
 user is
> until after this stage, it can=E2=80=99t tell that information to the IdP=
 ahead of
> time and therefore the IdP is forced to always send it just in case the R=
P
> might need it. But by telling the RP an identifier for the user and a tag
> of when any of their information was last updated I can make the decision
> whether or not to pull information at the RP in an intelligent fashion if=
 I
> want to.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> > On Jan 16, 2020, at 5:29 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
> >
> > The same could be said for any resource, particularly in scenarios wher=
e
> the interaction was kicked off so that the SP can perform a specific acti=
on
> initiated by the user (e.g., charging a credit card or account, publishin=
g
> a message to a message board or social media feed, retrieving a specific
> document or image).
> >
> > Consider a flow like the following:
> > 1. The end user is on a client website that provides a photo printing
> service, clicks the "Print from CloudStorageProvider" button.
> > 4. The client initates TxAuth via CloudStorageProvider's transaction
> endpoint, requesting a URL for a photo to be selected by the end user.
> > 5. CloudStorageProvider returns an interact_url pointing to its AS.
> > 6. The client redirects the user agent to the AS.
> > 7. The end user signs in, and selects the photo they want to print, and
> confirms authorization to share with the client.
> > 8. The AS redirects the user agent back to client.
> > 9. The client calls back to CloudStorageProvider's transaction endpoint
> to continue the TxAuth transaction.
> > 10. CloudStorageProvider returns confirmation that the authorization wa=
s
> granted, along with the URL for the selected photo.
> >
> > This is identical to the identity use case, we've just replaced identit=
y
> claims with a URL to a photo. I see a lot of value in encouraging one-tim=
e
> authorization of specific actions like this, and if we're going to suppor=
t
> inlining of resources for identity claims anyway, it's not a big stretch =
to
> allow for arbitrary resource types. I do think it's fair to narrowly scop=
e
> the kinds of resource *schemas* the WG will define (e.g., defining core
> identity claims like OIDC did), but the inlining mechanism should be
> flexible (e.g., not limiting this to claims about the end user identity,
> like OIDC did).
> >
> > =E2=80=93
> > Annabelle Richard Backman
> > AWS Identity
> >
> >
> > =EF=BB=BFOn 1/16/20, 12:59 PM, "Txauth on behalf of Justin Richer" <
> txauth-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
> >
> >    I think that=E2=80=99s exactly the reason =E2=80=94 the case of gett=
ing information
> about the user directly from the TX endpoint is well established. People
> don=E2=80=99t want to make another round trip just to figure out who=E2=
=80=99s there, when
> a lot of time that=E2=80=99s the first thing they care about, and then th=
e=E2=80=99d make
> the determination of whether to follow other APIs after that.
> >
> >    So if I can send you a very basic set of authn info from the
> callback, like an identifier and VoT style login information, then you ca=
n
> figure out if you need to know more about that user or not. But these bas=
ic
> claims do get elevated to the same level as other returned artifacts from
> the transaction, like the access tokens.
> >
> >     =E2=80=94 Justin
> >
> >> On Jan 16, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The only reason I can think of to single out identity within the
> charter is if there is some work or feature that is within scope for the
> working group, but only for identity claims (e.g., returning identity
> claims from the transaction endpoint). Repeating a question I posed
> earlier, what is it about identity claims that make them worthy of specia=
l
> consideration?
> >>
> >> =E2=80=93
> >> Annabelle Richard Backman
> >> AWS Identity
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/16/20, 8:51 AM, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>   On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt <
> torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Am 16.01.2020 um 16:45 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>:
> >>>>
> >>>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single
> interaction
> >>>
> >>> This sounds a bit incomplete to me. I assume the user would approve
> =E2=80=9Ethe attestation of identity claims=E2=80=9C. I furthermore think=
 the user would
> approve =E2=80=9Eaccess to multiple APIs=E2=80=9C. I would prefer API ove=
r resource because
> it is more universal. For example, the protocol could also be used to
> create resources.
> >>
> >>   Point taken, but this isn=E2=80=99t meant to be an exhaustive list o=
f what it
> can do, merely the list of things we=E2=80=99re positive we want it to do=
. I also
> prefer =E2=80=9CAPI=E2=80=9D over =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D, but concede=
 that =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D can be a
> writeable thing too. Even then I=E2=80=99m happy to tweak the language he=
re.
> >>
> >>    =E2=80=94 Justin
> >>
> >
> >    --
> >    Txauth mailing list
> >    Txauth@ietf.org
> >    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> >
> >
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I was thinking that other kinds of delegation results woul=
d be yet another top level request, and matching response. Since it is not =
a widely deployed use case today, it would be an extension to the core prot=
ocol.<div><br></div><div>Justin:=C2=A0 What to you mean by VoT?</div><div><=
br></div><div>wrt. returning claims, vs access to claims, I think it is an =
important discussion -- but let&#39;s put a pin in that for discussion in t=
he WG once we are formed! I don&#39;t think=C2=A0that needs to be in the ch=
arter, but happy to be convinced otherwise.=C2=A0</div></div><div hspace=3D=
"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;=
max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sen=
der=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3Db76=
c3490-3177-4d54-814e-946c84fd915b"><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=
=90=A7</font></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 2:49 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I=E2=80=99m cautiously Ok with having=
 resource inlining be in scope =E2=80=94 IF we can generalize it from the i=
dentity case specifically.<br>
<br>
To do what you=E2=80=99re asking for though, the WG can still be chartered =
to solve identity (which we know is a well-established and understood use c=
ase), but also allow other things. <br>
<br>
This gets back to a fundamental question that I don=E2=80=99t have a clear =
answer for yet: what do you get back at the end of a transaction? Right now=
 we=E2=80=99ve got a clear call for three things:<br>
<br>
1. Access tokens to call APIs<br>
2. Transaction handles to continue the transaction later (like a refresh to=
ken but better)<br>
3. User identity claims<br>
<br>
Maybe the mechanism we use for #3 can be generalized, or maybe there=E2=80=
=99s even a good way to provide switches for #1, #2, and #3. <br>
<br>
And while we=E2=80=99re on the topic of #3, I think there=E2=80=99s a stron=
g case to be made that it should NOT be a user=E2=80=99s profile informatio=
n, but rather just enough information to identify the user to the RP. If th=
e RP wants to pull more profile info, it can do so via an API. This keeps u=
s out of the anti-pattern that SAML has of always sending all claims about =
a user whether the RP needs them or not. But the RP will at least need to k=
now if it has to request the claims, and we can do that by a simple enough =
structure like:<br>
<br>
user: {<br>
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://foo.bar/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://foo.bar/</a>=E2=80=9C,<br>
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9C12387yhjfre=E2=80=9D,<br>
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Clast_updated=E2=80=9D: 54239084<br>
}<br>
<br>
<br>
You can add VoT and other things that can vary per-login here as well. But =
I shouldn=E2=80=99t be sending you the user=E2=80=99s name and address ever=
y time they log in =E2=80=94 as an RP you only need to get that if it=E2=80=
=99s a new account or if it=E2=80=99s been updated since you last saw it. Y=
ou can=E2=80=99t handle that if you=E2=80=99re pushing all the claims in th=
e response: Since the RP doesn=E2=80=99t know who the user is until after t=
his stage, it can=E2=80=99t tell that information to the IdP ahead of time =
and therefore the IdP is forced to always send it just in case the RP might=
 need it. But by telling the RP an identifier for the user and a tag of whe=
n any of their information was last updated I can make the decision whether=
 or not to pull information at the RP in an intelligent fashion if I want t=
o.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<br>
<br>
&gt; On Jan 16, 2020, at 5:29 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The same could be said for any resource, particularly in scenarios whe=
re the interaction was kicked off so that the SP can perform a specific act=
ion initiated by the user (e.g., charging a credit card or account, publish=
ing a message to a message board or social media feed, retrieving a specifi=
c document or image).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Consider a flow like the following:<br>
&gt; 1. The end user is on a client website that provides a photo printing =
service, clicks the &quot;Print from CloudStorageProvider&quot; button.<br>
&gt; 4. The client initates TxAuth via CloudStorageProvider&#39;s transacti=
on endpoint, requesting a URL for a photo to be selected by the end user.<b=
r>
&gt; 5. CloudStorageProvider returns an interact_url pointing to its AS.<br=
>
&gt; 6. The client redirects the user agent to the AS.<br>
&gt; 7. The end user signs in, and selects the photo they want to print, an=
d confirms authorization to share with the client.<br>
&gt; 8. The AS redirects the user agent back to client.<br>
&gt; 9. The client calls back to CloudStorageProvider&#39;s transaction end=
point to continue the TxAuth transaction.<br>
&gt; 10. CloudStorageProvider returns confirmation that the authorization w=
as granted, along with the URL for the selected photo.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This is identical to the identity use case, we&#39;ve just replaced id=
entity claims with a URL to a photo. I see a lot of value in encouraging on=
e-time authorization of specific actions like this, and if we&#39;re going =
to support inlining of resources for identity claims anyway, it&#39;s not a=
 big stretch to allow for arbitrary resource types. I do think it&#39;s fai=
r to narrowly scope the kinds of resource *schemas* the WG will define (e.g=
., defining core identity claims like OIDC did), but the inlining mechanism=
 should be flexible (e.g., not limiting this to claims about the end user i=
dentity, like OIDC did).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =E2=80=93 <br>
&gt; Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
&gt; AWS Identity<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =EF=BB=BFOn 1/16/20, 12:59 PM, &quot;Txauth on behalf of Justin Richer=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">txa=
uth-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think that=E2=80=99s exactly the reason =E2=80=94 the c=
ase of getting information about the user directly from the TX endpoint is =
well established. People don=E2=80=99t want to make another round trip just=
 to figure out who=E2=80=99s there, when a lot of time that=E2=80=99s the f=
irst thing they care about, and then the=E2=80=99d make the determination o=
f whether to follow other APIs after that. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 So if I can send you a very basic set of authn info from =
the callback, like an identifier and VoT style login information, then you =
can figure out if you need to know more about that user or not. But these b=
asic claims do get elevated to the same level as other returned artifacts f=
rom the transaction, like the access tokens.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Jan 16, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; The only reason I can think of to single out identity within the c=
harter is if there is some work or feature that is within scope for the wor=
king group, but only for identity claims (e.g., returning identity claims f=
rom the transaction endpoint). Repeating a question I posed earlier, what i=
s it about identity claims that make them worthy of special consideration?<=
br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=93 <br>
&gt;&gt; Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
&gt;&gt; AWS Identity<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On 1/16/20, 8:51 AM, &quot;Justin Richer&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target=3D"_blank">torsten@lodder=
stedt.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Am 16.01.2020 um 16:45 schrieb Justin Richer &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a =
single interaction<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; This sounds a bit incomplete to me. I assume the user would ap=
prove =E2=80=9Ethe attestation of identity claims=E2=80=9C. I furthermore t=
hink the user would approve =E2=80=9Eaccess to multiple APIs=E2=80=9C. I wo=
uld prefer API over resource because it is more universal. For example, the=
 protocol could also be used to create resources.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Point taken, but this isn=E2=80=99t meant to be an exh=
austive list of what it can do, merely the list of things we=E2=80=99re pos=
itive we want it to do. I also prefer =E2=80=9CAPI=E2=80=9D over =E2=80=9Cr=
esource=E2=80=9D, but concede that =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D can be a writ=
eable thing too. Even then I=E2=80=99m happy to tweak the language here. <b=
r>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Justin<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Txauth mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txau=
th@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
txauth</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
CC: Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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Yes, I see that sentence ("This protocol will allow an authorizing party to=
 delegate access to client software through an authorization server"). That'=
s very specific, which is good.

Just wanted to be sure that the bullet further below ("Delegation between m=
ultiple users") also makes sense given that the first sentence is talking ab=
out delegation to a piece of software.

It=E2=80=99s a big jump between (i) a person delegating to a piece of software, t=
o (ii) a person delegating to another person.

Sorry for being pedantic.



-- thomas --



=EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 5:50 PM
To: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
Cc: "hardjono@mit.edu" <hardjono@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.o=
rg>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup

I get that, but that=E2=80=99s why the proposed charter text tries to be very exp=
licit about who is delegating to whom (or what) and for what purpose. That=E2=80=
=99s why delegation to software and delegation between users are both listed s=
eparately.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net> w=
rote:
>=20
> The problem is that the word "delegation" is generally a very loaded term=
.
>=20
> I understand that WGs need wiggle room, but I'm concerned that this kind =
of loose wording may cause confusion down the road.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>> What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy processin=
g.
>=20
> Agree.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer <jriche=
r@mit.edu>
> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:54 AM
> To: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
> Cc: "hardjono@mit.edu" <hardjono@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf=
.org>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>=20
> On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Looks good, but I have a clarification question:
>>=20
>>>>> - Delegation between multiple users
>>=20
>> What does this mean exactly?
>>=20
>> Is it the "multi-hop" delegation (Alice to Bob to Charlize to ...)
>>=20
>> Or does it only the "1-hop" delegation concurrently (Alice to Bob; Alice=
 to Charlize; Alice to=E2=80=A6)
>=20
> My thinking was that at the very least we want to allow the person runnin=
g the client software and the person doing the authorization to be different=
 people. This is the UMA use case (Alice to bob) and the CIBA use case (agen=
t getting someone to log in). I think chaining can follow that, where Bob ca=
n then let Charlie do something. This is also along the lines of the token e=
xchange model of OAuth 2, with continuously down-scoped access.
>=20
> What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy processing.=
=20
>=20
> =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>>=20
>> -- thomas --
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
>> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer <jrich=
er@mit.edu>
>> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 10:46 AM
>> To: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
>> Cc: "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richann=
a@amazon.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.=
com>
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>>=20
>> Here=E2=80=99s my updated text incorporating the feedback so far:
>>=20
>>=20
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, a=
uthorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party =
to delegate access to client software through an authorization server. The u=
se cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases c=
urrently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.=
0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the pro=
tocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple the inter=
action channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from the delegation chann=
el, which happens directly between the client and the authorization server (=
in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the us=
er=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the authorizing party as necessary =
through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This decoupling av=
oids many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as =
well as providing a non-invasive path for supporting future types of clients=
 and interaction channels.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>>=20
>>=20
>> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>>=20
>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single interac=
tion
>>=20
>> - Delegation between multiple users
>>=20
>> - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types of =
client applications
>>=20
>>=20
>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for fl=
exibility in areas including:
>>=20
>>=20
>> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of posse=
ssion=20
>>=20
>> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>>=20
>> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other piece=
s of information used in authorization decisions
>>=20
>> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>=20
>>=20
>> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the pr=
otocol lifecycle including:
>>=20
>>=20
>> - Discovery of the authorization server
>>=20
>> - Revocation of active tokens
>>=20
>> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>>=20
>>=20
>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be =
backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will attemp=
t to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol =
where possible.
>>=20
>>=20
>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication betwee=
n the client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to ta=
ke advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and=
 will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s definitely a lot, but I think we=E2=80=99ve got a good handle on what w=
e=E2=80=99re working on, and what the boundaries are. I think this is both too muc=
h of an effort and too much of a break to do this in the OAuth WG, where the=
re=E2=80=99s already still plenty of work to be done. We=E2=80=99re leaning a lot on les=
sons learned from the OAuth 2 world and its extensions, including OIDC and U=
MA2. We=E2=80=99ve got the attention of a lot of the right people to start this as=
 well.
>>=20
>> So to the AD=E2=80=99s: Ben and Roman =E2=80=94 what=E2=80=99s the next step? This should =
be a new working group and like to get it started so that we can have our fi=
rst meeting in Vancouver.
>>=20
>> =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Jan 14, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Sounds good to me.
>>=20
>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s framing of =
it in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why we=E2=80=99re doing it in r=
elation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of the key things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99=
re making a break from OAuth 2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for very s=
pecific reasons.=20
>>=20
>> =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon=
.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I the key thing=
 to emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation channels, which=
 addresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues and also provides a=
 path to support future delegation channel types without significant changes=
 to the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where extensions like Device Flow and PA=
R introduce substantial changes to the core protocol flow on both client and=
 AS). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99t assuming a particular front channel, it=E2=80=99s=
 easier to add support for a new one.
>>=20
>> Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorizatio=
n protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely dep=
loyed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, an ext=
ension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be decoupled from delegation channel=
s such as an end user=E2=80=99s web browser and operate primarily through a channe=
l between the client and the authorization server, avoiding many of the secu=
rity concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-inva=
sive path for adding support for future types of clients and delegation chan=
nels.
>>=20
>> =E2=80=93=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> AWS Identity
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM
>> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
>> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand the mo=
tivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorizatio=
n protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely dep=
loyed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect, an ext=
ension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, where the protocol is initiat=
ed by redirecting the user's browser to an authorization server, this protoc=
ol will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorizati=
on server, which will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical c=
hallenges of OAuth 2.0.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@ama=
zon.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this from=
 the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or listened to Ju=
stin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to see what the point of this gro=
up is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d expect this charter to provide at lea=
st a cursory explanation of what problem it is trying to solve. In this case=
, the problem should be partially defined in relation to OAuth. What will th=
is WG do that the OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?
>>=20
>> How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:
>>=20
>> The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical c=
hallenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels between the cli=
ent and the authorization server, and minimizing the amount of information t=
ransmitted over untrusted channels.
>>=20
>> =E2=80=93=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> AWS Identity
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <dick.har=
dt@gmail.com>
>> Date: Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM
>> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
>> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
>>=20
>>=20
>> What do others think of the proposed charter now?=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =E1=90=A7
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on everyon=
e=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, so this timing is=
 helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, incorporating some of your p=
oints below:=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity, a=
uthorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party =
to delegate access to client software through an authorization server. The u=
se cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases c=
urrently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the pro=
tocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiated by th=
e client interacting directly with the authorization server (in contrast wit=
h OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser)=
. The client will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interac=
tion mechanisms indicated by the protocol.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>>=20
>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single interac=
tion
>>=20
>> - Delegation between multiple users
>>=20
>> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for fl=
exibility in areas including:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of posse=
ssion=20
>>=20
>> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>>=20
>> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other piece=
s of information used in authorization decisions
>>=20
>> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the pr=
otocol lifecycle including:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> - Discovery of the authorization server
>>=20
>> - Revocation of active tokens
>>=20
>> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be =
backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will attemp=
t to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol =
where possible.
>>=20
>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication betwee=
n the client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to ta=
ke advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to=
 enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Hey
>>=20
>>=20
>> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the fee=
dback on Justin's charter.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of i=
deas.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Key ideas:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> /Dick
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ----
>>=20
>>=20
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and authorizatio=
n protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely de=
ployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect. In co=
ntrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initiated by r=
edirecting the user's browser to an authorization server, this protocol will=
 be initiated by the client directly interacting with the authorization serv=
er..
>>=20
>>=20
>> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
>>=20
>> - fine-grained specification of resource access
>>=20
>> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to multipl=
e resources in one interaction
>>=20
>> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
>>=20
>> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>>=20
>>=20
>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for fl=
exibility in areas including:
>>=20
>>=20
>> - discovery of the authorization server
>>=20
>> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of posse=
ssion=20
>>=20
>> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token p=
resentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>=20
>>=20
>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be =
backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt to =
simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse exis=
ting semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and access token=
s, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>>=20
>>=20
>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication betwee=
n the client and the authorization server, the working group will strive to =
enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =E1=90=A7
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>=20
>=20




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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 15:21:25 -0800
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To: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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What I have understood we are enabling is a separation between the user
using the client software, and the user that is the resource owner.

Justin: is that what you had in mind?
=E1=90=A7

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:17 PM Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
wrote:

> Yes, I see that sentence ("This protocol will allow an authorizing party
> to delegate access to client software through an authorization server").
> That's very specific, which is good.
>
> Just wanted to be sure that the bullet further below ("Delegation between
> multiple users") also makes sense given that the first sentence is talkin=
g
> about delegation to a piece of software.
>
> It=E2=80=99s a big jump between (i) a person delegating to a piece of sof=
tware, to
> (ii) a person delegating to another person.
>
> Sorry for being pedantic.
>
>
>
> -- thomas --
>
>
>
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 5:50 PM
> To: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
> Cc: "hardjono@mit.edu" <hardjono@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <
> txauth@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>
> I get that, but that=E2=80=99s why the proposed charter text tries to be =
very
> explicit about who is delegating to whom (or what) and for what purpose.
> That=E2=80=99s why delegation to software and delegation between users ar=
e both
> listed separately.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> > On Jan 16, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > The problem is that the word "delegation" is generally a very loaded
> term.
> >
> > I understand that WGs need wiggle room, but I'm concerned that this kin=
d
> of loose wording may cause confusion down the road.
> >
> >
> >
> >>> What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy
> processing.
> >
> > Agree.
> >
> >
> >
> > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> > From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer <
> jricher@mit.edu>
> > Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:54 AM
> > To: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
> > Cc: "hardjono@mit.edu" <hardjono@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <
> txauth@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
> >
> > On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net=
>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Looks good, but I have a clarification question:
> >>
> >>>>> - Delegation between multiple users
> >>
> >> What does this mean exactly?
> >>
> >> Is it the "multi-hop" delegation (Alice to Bob to Charlize to ...)
> >>
> >> Or does it only the "1-hop" delegation concurrently (Alice to Bob;
> Alice to Charlize; Alice to=E2=80=A6)
> >
> > My thinking was that at the very least we want to allow the person
> running the client software and the person doing the authorization to be
> different people. This is the UMA use case (Alice to bob) and the CIBA us=
e
> case (agent getting someone to log in). I think chaining can follow that,
> where Bob can then let Charlie do something. This is also along the lines
> of the token exchange model of OAuth 2, with continuously down-scoped
> access.
> >
> > What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy
> processing.
> >
> > =E2=80=94 Justin
> >
> >>
> >> -- thomas --
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> >> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer <
> jricher@mit.edu>
> >> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 10:46 AM
> >> To: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> >> Cc: "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <
> richanna@amazon.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
> >>
> >> Here=E2=80=99s my updated text incorporating the feedback so far:
> >>
> >>
> >> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity,
> authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing
> party to delegate access to client software through an authorization
> server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (a=
n
> extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0=
.
> >>
> >>
> >> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the
> protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple the
> interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from the de=
legation
> channel, which happens directly between the client and the authorization
> server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client
> redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the auth=
orizing
> party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated by the
> protocol. This decoupling avoids many of the security concerns and
> technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as providing a non-invasive pat=
h
> for supporting future types of clients and interaction channels.
> >>
> >>
> >> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
> >>
> >>
> >> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
> >>
> >> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single
> interaction
> >>
> >> - Delegation between multiple users
> >>
> >> - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types o=
f
> client applications
> >>
> >>
> >> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
> flexibility in areas including:
> >>
> >>
> >> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
> possession
> >>
> >> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
> >>
> >> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other
> pieces of information used in authorization decisions
> >>
> >> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
> >>
> >>
> >> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the
> protocol lifecycle including:
> >>
> >>
> >> - Discovery of the authorization server
> >>
> >> - Revocation of active tokens
> >>
> >> - Query of token rights by resource servers
> >>
> >>
> >> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to b=
e
> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will
> attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new
> protocol where possible.
> >>
> >>
> >> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication
> between the client and the authorization server, the working group will
> seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where
> possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols suc=
h
> as COAP.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It=E2=80=99s definitely a lot, but I think we=E2=80=99ve got a good ha=
ndle on what
> we=E2=80=99re working on, and what the boundaries are. I think this is bo=
th too
> much of an effort and too much of a break to do this in the OAuth WG, whe=
re
> there=E2=80=99s already still plenty of work to be done. We=E2=80=99re le=
aning a lot on
> lessons learned from the OAuth 2 world and its extensions, including OIDC
> and UMA2. We=E2=80=99ve got the attention of a lot of the right people to=
 start
> this as well.
> >>
> >> So to the AD=E2=80=99s: Ben and Roman =E2=80=94 what=E2=80=99s the nex=
t step? This should be a
> new working group and like to get it started so that we can have our firs=
t
> meeting in Vancouver.
> >>
> >> =E2=80=94 Justin
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 14, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Sounds good to me.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s fra=
ming of
> it in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why we=E2=80=99re doin=
g it in
> relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of the key things, to me, is =
that we=E2=80=99re
> making a break from OAuth 2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for =
very
> specific reasons.
> >>
> >> =E2=80=94 Justin
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I the k=
ey thing
> to emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation channels, whi=
ch
> addresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues and also provides=
 a
> path to support future delegation channel types without significant chang=
es
> to the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where extensions like Device Flow and
> PAR introduce substantial changes to the core protocol flow on both clien=
t
> and AS). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99t assuming a particular front cha=
nnel, it=E2=80=99s
> easier to add support for a new one.
> >>
> >> Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:
> >> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and
> authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will
> include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and
> OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be decouple=
d
> from delegation channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s web browser and op=
erate
> primarily through a channel between the client and the authorization
> server, avoiding many of the security concerns and technical challenges o=
f
> OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invasive path for adding support for future
> types of clients and delegation channels.
> >>
> >> =E2=80=93
> >> Annabelle Richard Backman
> >> AWS Identity
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> >> Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM
> >> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
> >> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.or=
g
> >
> >> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand the
> motivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and
> authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will
> include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and
> OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, wher=
e
> the protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an
> authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client
> directly interacting with the authorization server, which will mitigate
> many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this
> from the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or l=
istened to
> Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to see what the =
point of this
> group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d expect this charter to pr=
ovide at
> least a cursory explanation of what problem it is trying to solve. In thi=
s
> case, the problem should be partially defined in relation to OAuth. What
> will this WG do that the OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=
=80=99t already
> doing?
> >>
> >> How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:
> >>
> >> The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and technical
> challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels between the
> client and the authorization server, and minimizing the amount of
> information transmitted over untrusted channels.
> >>
> >> =E2=80=93
> >> Annabelle Richard Backman
> >> AWS Identity
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> >> Date: Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM
> >> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> >> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
> >>
> >>
> >> What do others think of the proposed charter now?
> >>
> >>
> >> =E1=90=A7
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote=
:
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based on
> everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway, s=
o this
> timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, incorporat=
ing some
> of your points below:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for identity,
> authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing
> party to delegate access to client software through an authorization
> server. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely
> deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the
> protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiated
> by the client interacting directly with the authorization server (in
> contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the
> user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the authorizing party as=
 necessary
> through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
> >>
> >> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single
> interaction
> >>
> >> - Delegation between multiple users
> >>
> >> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
> flexibility in areas including:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
> possession
> >>
> >> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
> >>
> >> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other
> pieces of information used in authorization decisions
> >>
> >> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the
> protocol lifecycle including:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> - Discovery of the authorization server
> >>
> >> - Revocation of active tokens
> >>
> >> - Query of token rights by resource servers
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to b=
e
> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will
> attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new
> protocol where possible.
> >>
> >> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication
> between the client and the authorization server, the working group will
> seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and
> will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hey
> >>
> >>
> >> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the
> feedback on Justin's charter.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace of
> ideas.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Key ideas:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use cases.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> /Dick
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----
> >>
> >>
> >> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and
> authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will
> include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and
> OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the
> protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an authorizati=
on
> server, this protocol will be initiated by the client directly interactin=
g
> with the authorization server..
> >>
> >>
> >> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
> >>
> >> - fine-grained specification of resource access
> >>
> >> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to
> multiple resources in one interaction
> >>
> >> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
> >>
> >> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
> >>
> >>
> >> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
> flexibility in areas including:
> >>
> >>
> >> - discovery of the authorization server
> >>
> >> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
> possession
> >>
> >> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- token
> presentation mechanisms and key bindings
> >>
> >>
> >> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to b=
e
> backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will attempt =
to
> simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to reuse
> existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and acces=
s
> tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
> >>
> >>
> >> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication
> between the client and the authorization server, the working group will
> strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> =E1=90=A7
> >>
> >> --
> >> Txauth mailing list
> >> Txauth@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Txauth mailing list
> >> Txauth@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Txauth mailing list
> >> Txauth@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> >
> > --
> > Txauth mailing list
> > Txauth@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

--0000000000002d7ebc059c4a16de
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">What I have understood=C2=A0we are enabling is a separatio=
n between the user using the client software, and the user that is the reso=
urce owner.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Justin: is that what you=C2=A0had in m=
ind?</div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px"><im=
g alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" src=3D"https:=
//mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;typ=
e=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D7849297b-ea4c-4b28-9c04-d5f56bf87d90"><font colo=
r=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7</font></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:17 PM Th=
omas Hardjono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net">ietf-txauth@h=
ardjono.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">Yes, I see that sentence (&quot;This protocol will allow an auth=
orizing party to delegate access to client software through an authorizatio=
n server&quot;). That&#39;s very specific, which is good.<br>
<br>
Just wanted to be sure that the bullet further below (&quot;Delegation betw=
een multiple users&quot;) also makes sense given that the first sentence is=
 talking about delegation to a piece of software.<br>
<br>
It=E2=80=99s a big jump between (i) a person delegating to a piece of softw=
are, to (ii) a person delegating to another person.<br>
<br>
Sorry for being pedantic.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- thomas --<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank=
">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 5:50 PM<br>
To: Thomas Hardjono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net" target=
=3D"_blank">ietf-txauth@hardjono.net</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">hardjono@mi=
t.edu</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">h=
ardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<br>
<br>
I get that, but that=E2=80=99s why the proposed charter text tries to be ve=
ry explicit about who is delegating to whom (or what) and for what purpose.=
 That=E2=80=99s why delegation to software and delegation between users are=
 both listed separately. <br>
<br>
=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<br>
<br>
&gt; On Jan 16, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Thomas Hardjono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iet=
f-txauth@hardjono.net" target=3D"_blank">ietf-txauth@hardjono.net</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The problem is that the word &quot;delegation&quot; is generally a ver=
y loaded term.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I understand that WGs need wiggle room, but I&#39;m concerned that thi=
s kind of loose wording may cause confusion down the road.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy =
processing.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Agree.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Txauth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Justin Richer &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br=
>
&gt; Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:54 AM<br>
&gt; To: Thomas Hardjono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">ietf-txauth@hardjono.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">hardjo=
no@mit.edu</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu" target=3D"_bla=
nk">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Thomas Hardjono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ie=
tf-txauth@hardjono.net" target=3D"_blank">ietf-txauth@hardjono.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Looks good, but I have a clarification question:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Delegation between multiple users<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; What does this mean exactly?<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Is it the &quot;multi-hop&quot; delegation (Alice to Bob to Charli=
ze to ...)<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Or does it only the &quot;1-hop&quot; delegation concurrently (Ali=
ce to Bob; Alice to Charlize; Alice to=E2=80=A6)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; My thinking was that at the very least we want to allow the person run=
ning the client software and the person doing the authorization to be diffe=
rent people. This is the UMA use case (Alice to bob) and the CIBA use case =
(agent getting someone to log in). I think chaining can follow that, where =
Bob can then let Charlie do something. This is also along the lines of the =
token exchange model of OAuth 2, with continuously down-scoped access.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy processi=
ng. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =E2=80=94 Justin<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; -- thomas --<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; From: Txauth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Justin Richer &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt=
;<br>
&gt;&gt; Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 10:46 AM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">txa=
uth@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.org" target=3D"_blank">rdd@ce=
rt.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.org" target=3D"_blank">rdd@=
cert.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Ben=
jamin Kaduk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">kaduk@mi=
t.edu</a>&gt;, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Here=E2=80=99s my updated text incorporating the feedback so far:<=
br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for ident=
ity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing=
 party to delegate access to client software through an authorization serve=
r. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed us=
e cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension o=
f OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in t=
he protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple th=
e interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from the de=
legation channel, which happens directly between the client and the authori=
zation server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client re=
directing the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the authoriz=
ing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated by the prot=
ocol. This decoupling avoids many of the security concerns and technical ch=
allenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as providing a non-invasive path for supporti=
ng future types of clients and interaction channels.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Fine-grained specification of resource access<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single i=
nteraction<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Delegation between multiple users<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other typ=
es of client applications<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of=
 possession <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods<br=
>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other=
 pieces of information used in authorization decisions<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of =
the protocol lifecycle including:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Discovery of the authorization server<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Revocation of active tokens<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Query of token rights by resource servers<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected =
to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will=
 attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new p=
rotocol where possible.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will see=
k to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possi=
ble, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as CO=
AP.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; It=E2=80=99s definitely a lot, but I think we=E2=80=99ve got a goo=
d handle on what we=E2=80=99re working on, and what the boundaries are. I t=
hink this is both too much of an effort and too much of a break to do this =
in the OAuth WG, where there=E2=80=99s already still plenty of work to be d=
one. We=E2=80=99re leaning a lot on lessons learned from the OAuth 2 world =
and its extensions, including OIDC and UMA2. We=E2=80=99ve got the attentio=
n of a lot of the right people to start this as well.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; So to the AD=E2=80=99s: Ben and Roman =E2=80=94 what=E2=80=99s the=
 next step? This should be a new working group and like to get it started s=
o that we can have our first meeting in Vancouver.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=94 Justin<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Jan 14, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dic=
k.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Sounds good to me.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s=
 framing of it in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why we=E2=80=
=99re doing it in relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of the key th=
ings, to me, is that we=E2=80=99re making a break from OAuth 2=E2=80=99s co=
re architecture but doing so for very specific reasons. <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=94 Justin<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I t=
he key thing to emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation ch=
annels, which addresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues and a=
lso provides a path to support future delegation channel types without sign=
ificant changes to the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where extensions like De=
vice Flow and PAR introduce substantial changes to the core protocol flow o=
n both client and AS). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99t assuming a particul=
ar front channel, it=E2=80=99s easier to add support for a new one.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:<br>
&gt;&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and author=
ization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include wid=
ely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect=
, an extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be decoupled from delegatio=
n channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s web browser and operate primarily =
through a channel between the client and the authorization server, avoiding=
 many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and pr=
oviding a non-invasive path for adding support for future types of clients =
and delegation channels.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=93 <br>
&gt;&gt; Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
&gt;&gt; AWS Identity<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; From: Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
ichanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D=
"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; I agree, some more &quot;why&quot; would help a broader audience u=
nderstand the motivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?<br=
>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and author=
ization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will include wid=
ely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect=
, an extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, where the protocol i=
s initiated by redirecting the user&#39;s browser to an authorization serve=
r, this protocol will be initiated by the client directly interacting with =
the authorization server, which will mitigate many of the security concerns=
 and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read thi=
s from the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or l=
istened to Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to see =
what the point of this group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d expe=
ct this charter to provide at least a cursory explanation of what problem i=
t is trying to solve. In this case, the problem should be partially defined=
 in relation to OAuth. What will this WG do that the OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99=
t already done or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and techn=
ical challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels between =
the client and the authorization server, and minimizing the amount of infor=
mation transmitted over untrusted channels.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=93 <br>
&gt;&gt; Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
&gt;&gt; AWS Identity<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; From: Txauth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Date: Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D=
"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">txa=
uth@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; This looks even better! Thanks Justin.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; What do others think of the proposed charter now? <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; =E1=90=A7<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter base=
d on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today anyway=
, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new charter, in=
corporating some of your points below: <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for ident=
ity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing=
 party to delegate access to client software through an authorization serve=
r. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed us=
e cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect. <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in t=
he protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be initiate=
d by the client interacting directly with the authorization server (in cont=
rast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=
=80=99s browser). The client will involve the authorizing party as necessar=
y through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol. <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Fine-grained specification of resource access<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single i=
nteraction<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Delegation between multiple users<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications=
<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of=
 possession <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods<br=
>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other=
 pieces of information used in authorization decisions<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of =
the protocol lifecycle including:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Discovery of the authorization server<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Revocation of active tokens<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - Query of token rights by resource servers<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected =
to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will=
 attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new p=
rotocol where possible.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will see=
k to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will s=
trive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dic=
k.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Hey<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve written an alternative charter that I hope captures some =
of the feedback on Justin&#39;s charter.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplac=
e of ideas. <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Key ideas:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use ca=
ses.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - The client interacts directly with the authorization server. <br=
>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; /Dick<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; ----<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and author=
ization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will include wi=
dely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connec=
t. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the protocol is initi=
ated by redirecting the user&#39;s browser to an authorization server, this=
 protocol will be initiated by the client directly interacting with the aut=
horization server..<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Additionally, the protocol will allow:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - fine-grained specification of resource access<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to m=
ultiple resources in one interaction<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - discovery of the authorization server<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of=
 possession <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- t=
oken presentation mechanisms and key bindings<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected =
to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will atte=
mpt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and strive to re=
use existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 scopes and acc=
ess tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will str=
ive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; =E1=90=A7<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; -- <br>
&gt;&gt; Txauth mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a=
><br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; -- <br>
&gt;&gt; Txauth mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a=
><br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; -- <br>
&gt;&gt; Txauth mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a=
><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; Txauth mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</=
a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br=
>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Txauth mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000002d7ebc059c4a16de--


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So really we=E2=80=99re talking about =E2=80=9Cdelegating to a piece of =
software that someone else is using=E2=80=9D when we say =E2=80=9Cdelegati=
on between multiple users=E2=80=9D.=20

Is there a better or more succinct way to put that in the charter text? =
Really we want the RO/RqP separation that UMA gives us explicitly to be =
an option here, and I think it naturally can be given our structure.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:16 PM, Thomas Hardjono =
<ietf-txauth@hardjono.net> wrote:
>=20
> Yes, I see that sentence ("This protocol will allow an authorizing =
party to delegate access to client software through an authorization =
server"). That's very specific, which is good.
>=20
> Just wanted to be sure that the bullet further below ("Delegation =
between multiple users") also makes sense given that the first sentence =
is talking about delegation to a piece of software.
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s a big jump between (i) a person delegating to a piece of =
software, to (ii) a person delegating to another person.
>=20
> Sorry for being pedantic.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -- thomas --
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 5:50 PM
> To: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
> Cc: "hardjono@mit.edu" <hardjono@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" =
<txauth@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>=20
> I get that, but that=E2=80=99s why the proposed charter text tries to =
be very explicit about who is delegating to whom (or what) and for what =
purpose. That=E2=80=99s why delegation to software and delegation =
between users are both listed separately.=20
>=20
> =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>> On Jan 16, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Thomas Hardjono =
<ietf-txauth@hardjono.net> wrote:
>>=20
>> The problem is that the word "delegation" is generally a very loaded =
term.
>>=20
>> I understand that WGs need wiggle room, but I'm concerned that this =
kind of loose wording may cause confusion down the road.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>> What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy =
processing.
>>=20
>> Agree.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
>> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu>
>> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:54 AM
>> To: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>
>> Cc: "hardjono@mit.edu" <hardjono@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" =
<txauth@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>>=20
>> On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Thomas Hardjono =
<ietf-txauth@hardjono.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Looks good, but I have a clarification question:
>>>=20
>>>>>> - Delegation between multiple users
>>>=20
>>> What does this mean exactly?
>>>=20
>>> Is it the "multi-hop" delegation (Alice to Bob to Charlize to ...)
>>>=20
>>> Or does it only the "1-hop" delegation concurrently (Alice to Bob; =
Alice to Charlize; Alice to=E2=80=A6)
>>=20
>> My thinking was that at the very least we want to allow the person =
running the client software and the person doing the authorization to be =
different people. This is the UMA use case (Alice to bob) and the CIBA =
use case (agent getting someone to log in). I think chaining can follow =
that, where Bob can then let Charlie do something. This is also along =
the lines of the token exchange model of OAuth 2, with continuously =
down-scoped access.
>>=20
>> What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy =
processing.=20
>>=20
>> =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -- thomas --
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
>>> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu>
>>> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 10:46 AM
>>> To: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
>>> Cc: "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" =
<richanna@amazon.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>>>=20
>>> Here=E2=80=99s my updated text incorporating the feedback so far:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
identity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not =
enabled by OAuth 2.0.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple =
the interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from =
the delegation channel, which happens directly between the client and =
the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by =
the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will =
involve the authorizing party as necessary through interaction =
mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This decoupling avoids many of the =
security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as =
providing a non-invasive path for supporting future types of clients and =
interaction channels.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>>>=20
>>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
>>>=20
>>> - Delegation between multiple users
>>>=20
>>> - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types =
of client applications
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>>>=20
>>> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>>>=20
>>> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
>>>=20
>>> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of =
the protocol lifecycle including:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> - Discovery of the authorization server
>>>=20
>>> - Revocation of active tokens
>>>=20
>>> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new =
protocol where possible.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where =
possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols =
such as COAP.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> It=E2=80=99s definitely a lot, but I think we=E2=80=99ve got a good =
handle on what we=E2=80=99re working on, and what the boundaries are. I =
think this is both too much of an effort and too much of a break to do =
this in the OAuth WG, where there=E2=80=99s already still plenty of work =
to be done. We=E2=80=99re leaning a lot on lessons learned from the =
OAuth 2 world and its extensions, including OIDC and UMA2. We=E2=80=99ve =
got the attention of a lot of the right people to start this as well.
>>>=20
>>> So to the AD=E2=80=99s: Ben and Roman =E2=80=94 what=E2=80=99s the =
next step? This should be a new working group and like to get it started =
so that we can have our first meeting in Vancouver.
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Jan 14, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Sounds good to me.
>>>=20
>>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s =
framing of it in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why =
we=E2=80=99re doing it in relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of =
the key things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99re making a break from OAuth =
2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for very specific reasons.=20
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I the =
key thing to emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from delegation =
channels, which addresses the aforementioned security/complexity issues =
and also provides a path to support future delegation channel types =
without significant changes to the protocol (unlike OAuth 2.0, where =
extensions like Device Flow and PAR introduce substantial changes to the =
core protocol flow on both client and AS). Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99=
t assuming a particular front channel, it=E2=80=99s easier to add =
support for a new one.
>>>=20
>>> Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:
>>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be =
decoupled from delegation channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s web =
browser and operate primarily through a channel between the client and =
the authorization server, avoiding many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invasive path for =
adding support for future types of clients and delegation channels.
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=93=20
>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>> AWS Identity
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM
>>> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
>>> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" =
<txauth@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand =
the motivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, =
where the protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server, which will mitigate =
many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this =
from the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or =
listened to Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to =
see what the point of this group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d=
 expect this charter to provide at least a cursory explanation of what =
problem it is trying to solve. In this case, the problem should be =
partially defined in relation to OAuth. What will this WG do that the =
OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?
>>>=20
>>> How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:
>>>=20
>>> The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels =
between the client and the authorization server, and minimizing the =
amount of information transmitted over untrusted channels.
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=93=20
>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>> AWS Identity
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM
>>> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
>>> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> What do others think of the proposed charter now?=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> =E1=90=A7
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based =
on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today =
anyway, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new =
charter, incorporating some of your points below:=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
identity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect.=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be =
initiated by the client interacting directly with the authorization =
server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client =
redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the =
authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated =
by the protocol.=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
>>>=20
>>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
>>>=20
>>> - Delegation between multiple users
>>>=20
>>> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>>>=20
>>> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>>>=20
>>> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
>>>=20
>>> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of =
the protocol lifecycle including:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> - Discovery of the authorization server
>>>=20
>>> - Revocation of active tokens
>>>=20
>>> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new =
protocol where possible.
>>>=20
>>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and =
will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Hey
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of the =
feedback on Justin's charter.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace =
of ideas.=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Key ideas:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use =
cases.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> /Dick
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ----
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the =
protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server..
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
>>>=20
>>> - fine-grained specification of resource access
>>>=20
>>> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to =
multiple resources in one interaction
>>>=20
>>> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
>>>=20
>>> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> - discovery of the authorization server
>>>=20
>>> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>>>=20
>>> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- =
token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and =
strive to reuse existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 =
scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> =E1=90=A7
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Txauth mailing list
>>> Txauth@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Txauth mailing list
>>> Txauth@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Txauth mailing list
>>> Txauth@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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Cc: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
References: <CAD9ie-sGfRGPFa4jBUeoVcG+CO=PvG-Ys-HrUMs7kVdt1zT3vA@mail.gmail.com> <FE8064D0-02CF-4BF1-AF25-0E52D9362D27@mit.edu> <CAD9ie-tAquhg=o1_cmKg_rO3mn9FeqCTDtY07XMqMOdhRWrD5Q@mail.gmail.com> <B758A8F2-211F-4637-84AE-3FD6974C546F@amazon.com> <CAD9ie-u5aV+FShiseuNRu_Ayp3EJjrN=zM1XBJW+vc9wDdL3NQ@mail.gmail.com> <A6D90193-D3FC-4BDB-8F4C-55A30ED252EE@amazon.com> <B88684FE-9ECE-4326-8DA2-F6A14E0D6ED0@mit.edu> <CAD9ie-tgXONsgr1cW=5X12Wdi+=iGZrnDtCfMzy-Vf-maezFHg@mail.gmail.com> <857A822F-E819-443E-8D92-5A5BD682D3AF@mit.edu> <40DEDA03-58E1-46EE-A46E-15D448283762@hardjono.net> <5F952C70-8EE2-440A-9334-5FBC19CE2A5E@mit.edu> <D3801C15-1089-4383-AAD9-10C867170181@hardjono.net> <301ADD9B-CCC9-447D-B652-EB377961FBD6@mit.edu> <3119F975-5ED2-4E5E-B6D4-997871FF6EF6@hardjono.net> <CAD9ie-uVjbqPKCRYKH-E3c8ftcZ19k=4LLJPh9Yh9AyTtO3gWQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Yes, this.

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> What I have understood we are enabling is a separation between the =
user using the client software, and the user that is the resource owner.=20=

>=20
> Justin: is that what you had in mind?
> =E1=90=A7
>=20
> On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:17 PM Thomas Hardjono =
<ietf-txauth@hardjono.net <mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>> wrote:
> Yes, I see that sentence ("This protocol will allow an authorizing =
party to delegate access to client software through an authorization =
server"). That's very specific, which is good.
>=20
> Just wanted to be sure that the bullet further below ("Delegation =
between multiple users") also makes sense given that the first sentence =
is talking about delegation to a piece of software.
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s a big jump between (i) a person delegating to a piece of =
software, to (ii) a person delegating to another person.
>=20
> Sorry for being pedantic.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -- thomas --
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>
> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 5:50 PM
> To: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net =
<mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>>
> Cc: "hardjono@mit.edu <mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>" <hardjono@mit.edu =
<mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>, "txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>" =
<txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
>=20
> I get that, but that=E2=80=99s why the proposed charter text tries to =
be very explicit about who is delegating to whom (or what) and for what =
purpose. That=E2=80=99s why delegation to software and delegation =
between users are both listed separately.=20
>=20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
> > On Jan 16, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Thomas Hardjono =
<ietf-txauth@hardjono.net <mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>> wrote:
> >=20
> > The problem is that the word "delegation" is generally a very loaded =
term.
> >=20
> > I understand that WGs need wiggle room, but I'm concerned that this =
kind of loose wording may cause confusion down the road.
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >>> What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy =
processing.
> >=20
> > Agree.
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> > From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>
> > Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:54 AM
> > To: Thomas Hardjono <ietf-txauth@hardjono.net =
<mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>>
> > Cc: "hardjono@mit.edu <mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>" <hardjono@mit.edu =
<mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>, "txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>" =
<txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>
> > Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
> >=20
> > On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Thomas Hardjono =
<ietf-txauth@hardjono.net <mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net>> wrote:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> Looks good, but I have a clarification question:
> >>=20
> >>>>> - Delegation between multiple users
> >>=20
> >> What does this mean exactly?
> >>=20
> >> Is it the "multi-hop" delegation (Alice to Bob to Charlize to ...)
> >>=20
> >> Or does it only the "1-hop" delegation concurrently (Alice to Bob; =
Alice to Charlize; Alice to=E2=80=A6)
> >=20
> > My thinking was that at the very least we want to allow the person =
running the client software and the person doing the authorization to be =
different people. This is the UMA use case (Alice to bob) and the CIBA =
use case (agent getting someone to log in). I think chaining can follow =
that, where Bob can then let Charlie do something. This is also along =
the lines of the token exchange model of OAuth 2, with continuously =
down-scoped access.
> >=20
> > What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy =
processing.=20
> >=20
> > =E2=80=94 Justin
> >=20
> >>=20
> >> -- thomas --
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> >> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>
> >> Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 10:46 AM
> >> To: "txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>" <txauth@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>
> >> Cc: "rdd@cert.org <mailto:rdd@cert.org>" <rdd@cert.org =
<mailto:rdd@cert.org>>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, Benjamin Kaduk =
<kaduk@mit.edu <mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> >> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
> >>=20
> >> Here=E2=80=99s my updated text incorporating the feedback so far:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
identity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not =
enabled by OAuth 2.0.
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in =
the protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will =
decouple the interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s =
browser, from the delegation channel, which happens directly between the =
client and the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is =
initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The =
client will involve the authorizing party as necessary through =
interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This decoupling avoids =
many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as =
well as providing a non-invasive path for supporting future types of =
clients and interaction channels.
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
> >>=20
> >> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
> >>=20
> >> - Delegation between multiple users
> >>=20
> >> - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other =
types of client applications
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
> >>=20
> >> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
> >>=20
> >> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
> >>=20
> >> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of =
the protocol lifecycle including:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> - Discovery of the authorization server
> >>=20
> >> - Revocation of active tokens
> >>=20
> >> - Query of token rights by resource servers
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected =
to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group =
will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to =
the new protocol where possible.
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where =
possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols =
such as COAP.
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> It=E2=80=99s definitely a lot, but I think we=E2=80=99ve got a good =
handle on what we=E2=80=99re working on, and what the boundaries are. I =
think this is both too much of an effort and too much of a break to do =
this in the OAuth WG, where there=E2=80=99s already still plenty of work =
to be done. We=E2=80=99re leaning a lot on lessons learned from the =
OAuth 2 world and its extensions, including OIDC and UMA2. We=E2=80=99ve =
got the attention of a lot of the right people to start this as well.
> >>=20
> >> So to the AD=E2=80=99s: Ben and Roman =E2=80=94 what=E2=80=99s the =
next step? This should be a new working group and like to get it started =
so that we can have our first meeting in Vancouver.
> >>=20
> >> =E2=80=94 Justin
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> On Jan 14, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>=20
> >> Sounds good to me.
> >>=20
> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99s =
framing of it in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why =
we=E2=80=99re doing it in relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of =
the key things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99re making a break from OAuth =
2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for very specific reasons.=20
> >>=20
> >> =E2=80=94 Justin
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> >>=20
> >> It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. I =
the key thing to emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from =
delegation channels, which addresses the aforementioned =
security/complexity issues and also provides a path to support future =
delegation channel types without significant changes to the protocol =
(unlike OAuth 2.0, where extensions like Device Flow and PAR introduce =
substantial changes to the core protocol flow on both client and AS). =
Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99t assuming a particular front channel, =
it=E2=80=99s easier to add support for a new one.
> >>=20
> >> Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:
> >> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be =
decoupled from delegation channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s web =
browser and operate primarily through a channel between the client and =
the authorization server, avoiding many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invasive path for =
adding support for future types of clients and delegation channels.
> >>=20
> >> =E2=80=93=20
> >> Annabelle Richard Backman
> >> AWS Identity
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> >> Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM
> >> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>
> >> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, =
"txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>" <txauth@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>
> >> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience understand =
the motivations. How about this change to the first paragraph?
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, =
where the protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server, which will mitigate =
many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read this =
from the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our meetings or =
listened to Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard pressed to =
see what the point of this group is, relative to the OAuth WG. I=E2=80=99d=
 expect this charter to provide at least a cursory explanation of what =
problem it is trying to solve. In this case, the problem should be =
partially defined in relation to OAuth. What will this WG do that the =
OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=80=99t already doing?
> >>=20
> >> How about adding something like the following to paragraph 2:
> >>=20
> >> The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels =
between the client and the authorization server, and minimizing the =
amount of information transmitted over untrusted channels.
> >>=20
> >> =E2=80=93=20
> >> Annabelle Richard Backman
> >> AWS Identity
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> >> Date: Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM
> >> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>
> >> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>" <txauth@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>
> >> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> This looks even better! Thanks Justin.
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> What do others think of the proposed charter now?=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> =E1=90=A7
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter based =
on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today =
anyway, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new =
charter, incorporating some of your points below:=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
identity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect.=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in =
the protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be =
initiated by the client interacting directly with the authorization =
server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client =
redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the =
authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated =
by the protocol.=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> - Fine-grained specification of resource access
> >>=20
> >> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
> >>=20
> >> - Delegation between multiple users
> >>=20
> >> - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client applications
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
> >>=20
> >> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
> >>=20
> >> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
> >>=20
> >> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of =
the protocol lifecycle including:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> - Discovery of the authorization server
> >>=20
> >> - Revocation of active tokens
> >>=20
> >> - Query of token rights by resource servers
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected =
to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group =
will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to =
the new protocol where possible.
> >>=20
> >> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3, and =
will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> Hey
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some of =
the feedback on Justin's charter.
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the marketplace =
of ideas.=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> Key ideas:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use =
cases.
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> - The client interacts directly with the authorization server.=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> /Dick
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> ----
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the =
protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server..
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> Additionally, the protocol will allow:
> >>=20
> >> - fine-grained specification of resource access
> >>=20
> >> - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access to =
multiple resources in one interaction
> >>=20
> >> - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications
> >>=20
> >> - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and HTTP3
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> - discovery of the authorization server
> >>=20
> >> - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
> >>=20
> >> - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods- =
token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected =
to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, they will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, and =
strive to reuse existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth 2.0 =
scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and claims.
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> =E1=90=A7
> >>=20
> >> --=20
> >> Txauth mailing list
> >> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> --=20
> >> Txauth mailing list
> >> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> --=20
> >> Txauth mailing list
> >> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>
> >=20
> > --=20
> > Txauth mailing list
> > Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Yes, =
this.<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Dick Hardt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">What I have understood&nbsp;we =
are enabling is a separation between the user using the client software, =
and the user that is the resource owner.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Justin: is that what you&nbsp;had in =
mind?</div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px" =
class=3D""><img alt=3D"" =
style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D7849297b-ea4c-4b28-9c04-d5f56bf87=
d90" class=3D""><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1" =
class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</font></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan =
16, 2020 at 3:17 PM Thomas Hardjono &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net" =
class=3D"">ietf-txauth@hardjono.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes, I see that sentence ("This =
protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access to client =
software through an authorization server"). That's very specific, which =
is good.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Just wanted to be sure that the bullet further below ("Delegation =
between multiple users") also makes sense given that the first sentence =
is talking about delegation to a piece of software.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
It=E2=80=99s a big jump between (i) a person delegating to a piece of =
software, to (ii) a person delegating to another person.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Sorry for being pedantic.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-- thomas --<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
=EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">
From: Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 5:50 PM<br class=3D"">
To: Thomas Hardjono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">ietf-txauth@hardjono.net</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
Cc: "<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">hardjono@mit.edu</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I get that, but that=E2=80=99s why the proposed charter text tries to be =
very explicit about who is delegating to whom (or what) and for what =
purpose. That=E2=80=99s why delegation to software and delegation =
between users are both listed separately. <br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; On Jan 16, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Thomas Hardjono &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">ietf-txauth@hardjono.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; The problem is that the word "delegation" is generally a very =
loaded term.<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; I understand that WGs need wiggle room, but I'm concerned that this =
kind of loose wording may cause confusion down the road.<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain =
policy processing.<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; Agree.<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">
&gt; From: Txauth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf =
of Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:54 AM<br class=3D"">
&gt; To: Thomas Hardjono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">ietf-txauth@hardjono.net</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; Cc: "<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">hardjono@mit.edu</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Thomas Hardjono &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-txauth@hardjono.net" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">ietf-txauth@hardjono.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Looks good, but I have a clarification question:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Delegation between multiple users<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; What does this mean exactly?<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Is it the "multi-hop" delegation (Alice to Bob to Charlize to =
...)<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Or does it only the "1-hop" delegation concurrently (Alice to =
Bob; Alice to Charlize; Alice to=E2=80=A6)<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; My thinking was that at the very least we want to allow the person =
running the client software and the person doing the authorization to be =
different people. This is the UMA use case (Alice to bob) and the CIBA =
use case (agent getting someone to log in). I think chaining can follow =
that, where Bob can then let Charlie do something. This is also along =
the lines of the token exchange model of OAuth 2, with continuously =
down-scoped access.<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; What I think is very much out of scope is cross-domain policy =
processing. <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; =E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; -- thomas --<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; From: Txauth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf =
of Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Date: Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 10:46 AM<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; To: "<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Cc: "<a href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">rdd@cert.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">rdd@cert.org</a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Here=E2=80=99s my updated text incorporating the feedback so =
far:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
identity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not =
enabled by OAuth 2.0.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties =
in the protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will =
decouple the interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s =
browser, from the delegation channel, which happens directly between the =
client and the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is =
initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The =
client will involve the authorizing party as necessary through =
interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This decoupling avoids =
many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as =
well as providing a non-invasive path for supporting future types of =
clients and interaction channels.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Fine-grained specification of resource access<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a =
single interaction<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Delegation between multiple users<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other =
types of client applications<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The group will define extension points for this protocol to =
allow for flexibility in areas including:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof =
of possession <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web =
methods<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and =
other pieces of information used in authorization decisions<br class=3D"">=

&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management =
of the protocol lifecycle including:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Discovery of the authorization server<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Revocation of active tokens<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Query of token rights by resource servers<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or =
expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, =
the group will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID =
Connect to the new protocol where possible.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for =
communication between the client and the authorization server, the =
working group will seek to take advantage of optimization features of =
HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping =
to other protocols such as COAP.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; It=E2=80=99s definitely a lot, but I think we=E2=80=99ve got a =
good handle on what we=E2=80=99re working on, and what the boundaries =
are. I think this is both too much of an effort and too much of a break =
to do this in the OAuth WG, where there=E2=80=99s already still plenty =
of work to be done. We=E2=80=99re leaning a lot on lessons learned from =
the OAuth 2 world and its extensions, including OIDC and UMA2. We=E2=80=99=
ve got the attention of a lot of the right people to start this as =
well.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; So to the AD=E2=80=99s: Ben and Roman =E2=80=94 what=E2=80=99s =
the next step? This should be a new working group and like to get it =
started so that we can have our first meeting in Vancouver.<br class=3D"">=

&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On Jan 14, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Sounds good to me.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:24 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; I can get behind this kind of addition. I like Annabelle=E2=80=99=
s framing of it in terms of decoupling, and some explanation of why =
we=E2=80=99re doing it in relation to OAuth 2=E2=80=99s approach. One of =
the key things, to me, is that we=E2=80=99re making a break from OAuth =
2=E2=80=99s core architecture but doing so for very specific reasons. =
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; It=E2=80=99s not just about the initial communication, though. =
I the key thing to emphasize is the decoupling the protocol from =
delegation channels, which addresses the aforementioned =
security/complexity issues and also provides a path to support future =
delegation channel types without significant changes to the protocol =
(unlike OAuth 2.0, where extensions like Device Flow and PAR introduce =
substantial changes to the core protocol flow on both client and AS). =
Since the protocol isn=E2=80=99t assuming a particular front channel, =
it=E2=80=99s easier to add support for a new one.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Proposal, altered from Dick=E2=80=99s suggestion:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. This protocol will be =
decoupled from delegation channels such as an end user=E2=80=99s web =
browser and operate primarily through a channel between the client and =
the authorization server, avoiding many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 and providing a non-invasive path for =
adding support for future types of clients and delegation channels.<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=93 <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; AWS Identity<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; From: Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Cc: Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; I agree, some more "why" would help a broader audience =
understand the motivations. How about this change to the first =
paragraph?<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect, an extension of OAuth 2.0. In contrast to OAuth 2.0, =
where the protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server, which will mitigate =
many of the security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0.<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; While I agree with the goals stated in this charter, if I read =
this from the perspective of someone who hasn=E2=80=99t been our =
meetings or listened to Justin=E2=80=99s presentations, I=E2=80=99m hard =
pressed to see what the point of this group is, relative to the OAuth =
WG. I=E2=80=99d expect this charter to provide at least a cursory =
explanation of what problem it is trying to solve. In this case, the =
problem should be partially defined in relation to OAuth. What will this =
WG do that the OAuth WG hasn=E2=80=99t already done or isn=E2=80=99t =
already doing?<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; How about adding something like the following to paragraph =
2:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The protocol will mitigate many of the security concerns and =
technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 by communicating over secure channels =
between the client and the authorization server, and minimizing the =
amount of information transmitted over untrusted channels.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=93 <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; AWS Identity<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; From: Txauth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf =
of Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Date: Friday, January 10, 2020 at 6:57 PM<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; To: Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Cc: "<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; This looks even better! Thanks Justin.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; What do others think of the proposed charter now? <br class=3D"">=

&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; =E1=90=A7<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Thanks, Dick. I=E2=80=99ve been working on an updated charter =
based on everyone=E2=80=99s feedback, and I was aiming to have out today =
anyway, so this timing is helpful. So here=E2=80=99s my take on a new =
charter, incorporating some of your points below: <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
identity, authorization, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect. <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties =
in the protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will be =
initiated by the client interacting directly with the authorization =
server (in contrast with OAuth 2 which is initiated by the client =
redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client will involve the =
authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated =
by the protocol. <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Fine-grained specification of resource access<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a =
single interaction<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Delegation between multiple users<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Web, mobile, single-page, and other types of client =
applications<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The group will define extension points for this protocol to =
allow for flexibility in areas including:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof =
of possession <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web =
methods<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and =
other pieces of information used in authorization decisions<br class=3D"">=

&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management =
of the protocol lifecycle including:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Discovery of the authorization server<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Revocation of active tokens<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - Query of token rights by resource servers<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or =
expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, =
the group will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID =
Connect to the new protocol where possible.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for =
communication between the client and the authorization server, the =
working group will seek to take advantage of optimization features of =
HTTP2 and HTTP3, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other =
protocols such as COAP.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Hey<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; I've written an alternative charter that I hope captures some =
of the feedback on Justin's charter.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; I found it easier to rewrite the charter to broaden the =
marketplace of ideas. <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Key ideas:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - This work supports existing OAuth 2.0, and OpenID Connect use =
cases.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - The client interacts directly with the authorization server. =
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; /Dick<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; ----<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegated identity and =
authorization protocol.. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0, and =
OpenID Connect. In contrast to OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, where the =
protocol is initiated by redirecting the user's browser to an =
authorization server, this protocol will be initiated by the client =
directly interacting with the authorization server..<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Additionally, the protocol will allow:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - fine-grained specification of resource access<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - the user to approve requests for identity claims and access =
to multiple resources in one interaction<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - web, mobile, single-page, and other client applications<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - taking advantage of optimization features in HTTP2 and =
HTTP3<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The group will define extension points for this protocol to =
allow for flexibility in areas including:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - discovery of the authorization server<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof =
of possession <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; - user interaction mechanisms including web and non-web =
methods- token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or =
expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, =
they will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect, =
and strive to reuse existing semantics such as client identifiers, OAuth =
2.0 scopes and access tokens, and OpenID Connect ID Tokens and =
claims.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for =
communication between the client and the authorization server, the =
working group will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols =
such as COAP.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; =E1=90=A7<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; -- <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Txauth mailing list<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br class=3D"">=

&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; -- <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Txauth mailing list<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br class=3D"">=

&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; -- <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Txauth mailing list<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br class=3D"">=

&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; -- <br class=3D"">
&gt; Txauth mailing list<br class=3D"">
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br class=3D"">=

&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-- <br class=3D"">
Txauth mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br class=3D"">=

</blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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I=E2=80=99m thinking this as well =E2=80=94 I think it=E2=80=99s the =
kind of detail that the WG can sort out, and that=E2=80=99s what I mean =
by figuring out a way to generalize my point #3 below into Annabelle=E2=80=
=99s use cases. I=E2=80=99m for figuring it out if we can do it, but not =
at the expense of what I=E2=80=99m seeing as a pretty clear set of =
semantics already.=20

VoT =3D=3D Vectors of Trust, RFC8485. A way to communicate information =
about the user logging in, basically authentication context but with =
more dimensions.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:00 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> I was thinking that other kinds of delegation results would be yet =
another top level request, and matching response. Since it is not a =
widely deployed use case today, it would be an extension to the core =
protocol.
>=20
> Justin:  What to you mean by VoT?
>=20
> wrt. returning claims, vs access to claims, I think it is an important =
discussion -- but let's put a pin in that for discussion in the WG once =
we are formed! I don't think that needs to be in the charter, but happy =
to be convinced otherwise.=20
> =E1=90=A7
>=20
> On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 2:49 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> I=E2=80=99m cautiously Ok with having resource inlining be in scope =
=E2=80=94 IF we can generalize it from the identity case specifically.
>=20
> To do what you=E2=80=99re asking for though, the WG can still be =
chartered to solve identity (which we know is a well-established and =
understood use case), but also allow other things.=20
>=20
> This gets back to a fundamental question that I don=E2=80=99t have a =
clear answer for yet: what do you get back at the end of a transaction? =
Right now we=E2=80=99ve got a clear call for three things:
>=20
> 1. Access tokens to call APIs
> 2. Transaction handles to continue the transaction later (like a =
refresh token but better)
> 3. User identity claims
>=20
> Maybe the mechanism we use for #3 can be generalized, or maybe =
there=E2=80=99s even a good way to provide switches for #1, #2, and #3.=20=

>=20
> And while we=E2=80=99re on the topic of #3, I think there=E2=80=99s a =
strong case to be made that it should NOT be a user=E2=80=99s profile =
information, but rather just enough information to identify the user to =
the RP. If the RP wants to pull more profile info, it can do so via an =
API. This keeps us out of the anti-pattern that SAML has of always =
sending all claims about a user whether the RP needs them or not. But =
the RP will at least need to know if it has to request the claims, and =
we can do that by a simple enough structure like:
>=20
> user: {
>   =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Chttp://foo.bar/ =
<http://foo.bar/>=E2=80=9C,
>   =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9C12387yhjfre=E2=80=9D,
>   =E2=80=9Clast_updated=E2=80=9D: 54239084
> }
>=20
>=20
> You can add VoT and other things that can vary per-login here as well. =
But I shouldn=E2=80=99t be sending you the user=E2=80=99s name and =
address every time they log in =E2=80=94 as an RP you only need to get =
that if it=E2=80=99s a new account or if it=E2=80=99s been updated since =
you last saw it. You can=E2=80=99t handle that if you=E2=80=99re pushing =
all the claims in the response: Since the RP doesn=E2=80=99t know who =
the user is until after this stage, it can=E2=80=99t tell that =
information to the IdP ahead of time and therefore the IdP is forced to =
always send it just in case the RP might need it. But by telling the RP =
an identifier for the user and a tag of when any of their information =
was last updated I can make the decision whether or not to pull =
information at the RP in an intelligent fashion if I want to.
>=20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
> > On Jan 16, 2020, at 5:29 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> >=20
> > The same could be said for any resource, particularly in scenarios =
where the interaction was kicked off so that the SP can perform a =
specific action initiated by the user (e.g., charging a credit card or =
account, publishing a message to a message board or social media feed, =
retrieving a specific document or image).
> >=20
> > Consider a flow like the following:
> > 1. The end user is on a client website that provides a photo =
printing service, clicks the "Print from CloudStorageProvider" button.
> > 4. The client initates TxAuth via CloudStorageProvider's transaction =
endpoint, requesting a URL for a photo to be selected by the end user.
> > 5. CloudStorageProvider returns an interact_url pointing to its AS.
> > 6. The client redirects the user agent to the AS.
> > 7. The end user signs in, and selects the photo they want to print, =
and confirms authorization to share with the client.
> > 8. The AS redirects the user agent back to client.
> > 9. The client calls back to CloudStorageProvider's transaction =
endpoint to continue the TxAuth transaction.
> > 10. CloudStorageProvider returns confirmation that the authorization =
was granted, along with the URL for the selected photo.
> >=20
> > This is identical to the identity use case, we've just replaced =
identity claims with a URL to a photo. I see a lot of value in =
encouraging one-time authorization of specific actions like this, and if =
we're going to support inlining of resources for identity claims anyway, =
it's not a big stretch to allow for arbitrary resource types. I do think =
it's fair to narrowly scope the kinds of resource *schemas* the WG will =
define (e.g., defining core identity claims like OIDC did), but the =
inlining mechanism should be flexible (e.g., not limiting this to claims =
about the end user identity, like OIDC did).
> >=20
> > =E2=80=93=20
> > Annabelle Richard Backman
> > AWS Identity
> >=20
> >=20
> > =EF=BB=BFOn 1/16/20, 12:59 PM, "Txauth on behalf of Justin Richer" =
<txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> >=20
> >    I think that=E2=80=99s exactly the reason =E2=80=94 the case of =
getting information about the user directly from the TX endpoint is well =
established. People don=E2=80=99t want to make another round trip just =
to figure out who=E2=80=99s there, when a lot of time that=E2=80=99s the =
first thing they care about, and then the=E2=80=99d make the =
determination of whether to follow other APIs after that.=20
> >=20
> >    So if I can send you a very basic set of authn info from the =
callback, like an identifier and VoT style login information, then you =
can figure out if you need to know more about that user or not. But =
these basic claims do get elevated to the same level as other returned =
artifacts from the transaction, like the access tokens.
> >=20
> >     =E2=80=94 Justin
> >=20
> >> On Jan 16, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> >>=20
> >> The only reason I can think of to single out identity within the =
charter is if there is some work or feature that is within scope for the =
working group, but only for identity claims (e.g., returning identity =
claims from the transaction endpoint). Repeating a question I posed =
earlier, what is it about identity claims that make them worthy of =
special consideration?
> >>=20
> >> =E2=80=93=20
> >> Annabelle Richard Backman
> >> AWS Identity
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> On 1/16/20, 8:51 AM, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> >>=20
> >>   On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>> wrote:
> >>>=20
> >>>=20
> >>>=20
> >>>> Am 16.01.2020 um 16:45 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>:
> >>>>=20
> >>>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a single =
interaction
> >>>=20
> >>> This sounds a bit incomplete to me. I assume the user would =
approve =E2=80=9Ethe attestation of identity claims=E2=80=9C. I =
furthermore think the user would approve =E2=80=9Eaccess to multiple =
APIs=E2=80=9C. I would prefer API over resource because it is more =
universal. For example, the protocol could also be used to create =
resources.
> >>=20
> >>   Point taken, but this isn=E2=80=99t meant to be an exhaustive =
list of what it can do, merely the list of things we=E2=80=99re positive =
we want it to do. I also prefer =E2=80=9CAPI=E2=80=9D over =
=E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D, but concede that =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D =
can be a writeable thing too. Even then I=E2=80=99m happy to tweak the =
language here.=20
> >>=20
> >>    =E2=80=94 Justin
> >>=20
> >=20
> >    --=20
> >    Txauth mailing list
> >    Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> >    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>
> >=20
> >=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_E6BB72FB-18E6-455E-9BAF-E72D5B4754AE
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=
=99m thinking this as well =E2=80=94 I think it=E2=80=99s the kind of =
detail that the WG can sort out, and that=E2=80=99s what I mean by =
figuring out a way to generalize my point #3 below into Annabelle=E2=80=99=
s use cases. I=E2=80=99m for figuring it out if we can do it, but not at =
the expense of what I=E2=80=99m seeing as a pretty clear set of =
semantics already.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">VoT =3D=3D Vectors of Trust, RFC8485. A way to communicate =
information about the user logging in, basically authentication context =
but with more dimensions.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan =
16, 2020, at 6:00 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I was thinking that other kinds =
of delegation results would be yet another top level request, and =
matching response. Since it is not a widely deployed use case today, it =
would be an extension to the core protocol.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Justin:&nbsp; What to you mean by =
VoT?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">wrt. =
returning claims, vs access to claims, I think it is an important =
discussion -- but let's put a pin in that for discussion in the WG once =
we are formed! I don't think&nbsp;that needs to be in the charter, but =
happy to be convinced otherwise.&nbsp;</div></div><div =
hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px" class=3D""><img =
alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3Db76c3490-3177-4d54-814e-946c84fd9=
15b" class=3D""><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1" =
class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</font></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan =
16, 2020 at 2:49 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I=E2=80=99m cautiously Ok with =
having resource inlining be in scope =E2=80=94 IF we can generalize it =
from the identity case specifically.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
To do what you=E2=80=99re asking for though, the WG can still be =
chartered to solve identity (which we know is a well-established and =
understood use case), but also allow other things. <br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
This gets back to a fundamental question that I don=E2=80=99t have a =
clear answer for yet: what do you get back at the end of a transaction? =
Right now we=E2=80=99ve got a clear call for three things:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
1. Access tokens to call APIs<br class=3D"">
2. Transaction handles to continue the transaction later (like a refresh =
token but better)<br class=3D"">
3. User identity claims<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Maybe the mechanism we use for #3 can be generalized, or maybe there=E2=80=
=99s even a good way to provide switches for #1, #2, and #3. <br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
And while we=E2=80=99re on the topic of #3, I think there=E2=80=99s a =
strong case to be made that it should NOT be a user=E2=80=99s profile =
information, but rather just enough information to identify the user to =
the RP. If the RP wants to pull more profile info, it can do so via an =
API. This keeps us out of the anti-pattern that SAML has of always =
sending all claims about a user whether the RP needs them or not. But =
the RP will at least need to know if it has to request the claims, and =
we can do that by a simple enough structure like:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
user: {<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://foo.bar/" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http://foo.bar/</a>=E2=80=9C=
,<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9C12387yhjfre=E2=80=9D,<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Clast_updated=E2=80=9D: 54239084<br class=3D"">
}<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
You can add VoT and other things that can vary per-login here as well. =
But I shouldn=E2=80=99t be sending you the user=E2=80=99s name and =
address every time they log in =E2=80=94 as an RP you only need to get =
that if it=E2=80=99s a new account or if it=E2=80=99s been updated since =
you last saw it. You can=E2=80=99t handle that if you=E2=80=99re pushing =
all the claims in the response: Since the RP doesn=E2=80=99t know who =
the user is until after this stage, it can=E2=80=99t tell that =
information to the IdP ahead of time and therefore the IdP is forced to =
always send it just in case the RP might need it. But by telling the RP =
an identifier for the user and a tag of when any of their information =
was last updated I can make the decision whether or not to pull =
information at the RP in an intelligent fashion if I want to.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; On Jan 16, 2020, at 5:29 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; The same could be said for any resource, particularly in scenarios =
where the interaction was kicked off so that the SP can perform a =
specific action initiated by the user (e.g., charging a credit card or =
account, publishing a message to a message board or social media feed, =
retrieving a specific document or image).<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; Consider a flow like the following:<br class=3D"">
&gt; 1. The end user is on a client website that provides a photo =
printing service, clicks the "Print from CloudStorageProvider" =
button.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 4. The client initates TxAuth via CloudStorageProvider's =
transaction endpoint, requesting a URL for a photo to be selected by the =
end user.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 5. CloudStorageProvider returns an interact_url pointing to its =
AS.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 6. The client redirects the user agent to the AS.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 7. The end user signs in, and selects the photo they want to print, =
and confirms authorization to share with the client.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 8. The AS redirects the user agent back to client.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 9. The client calls back to CloudStorageProvider's transaction =
endpoint to continue the TxAuth transaction.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 10. CloudStorageProvider returns confirmation that the =
authorization was granted, along with the URL for the selected photo.<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; This is identical to the identity use case, we've just replaced =
identity claims with a URL to a photo. I see a lot of value in =
encouraging one-time authorization of specific actions like this, and if =
we're going to support inlining of resources for identity claims anyway, =
it's not a big stretch to allow for arbitrary resource types. I do think =
it's fair to narrowly scope the kinds of resource *schemas* the WG will =
define (e.g., defining core identity claims like OIDC did), but the =
inlining mechanism should be flexible (e.g., not limiting this to claims =
about the end user identity, like OIDC did).<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; =E2=80=93 <br class=3D"">
&gt; Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D"">
&gt; AWS Identity<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; =EF=BB=BFOn 1/16/20, 12:59 PM, "Txauth on behalf of Justin Richer" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; I think that=E2=80=99s exactly the reason =E2=80=94 =
the case of getting information about the user directly from the TX =
endpoint is well established. People don=E2=80=99t want to make another =
round trip just to figure out who=E2=80=99s there, when a lot of time =
that=E2=80=99s the first thing they care about, and then the=E2=80=99d =
make the determination of whether to follow other APIs after that. <br =
class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; So if I can send you a very basic set of authn info =
from the callback, like an identifier and VoT style login information, =
then you can figure out if you need to know more about that user or not. =
But these basic claims do get elevated to the same level as other =
returned artifacts from the transaction, like the access tokens.<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On Jan 16, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The only reason I can think of to single out identity within =
the charter is if there is some work or feature that is within scope for =
the working group, but only for identity claims (e.g., returning =
identity claims from the transaction endpoint). Repeating a question I =
posed earlier, what is it about identity claims that make them worthy of =
special consideration?<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=93 <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; AWS Identity<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On 1/16/20, 8:51 AM, "Justin Richer" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Am 16.01.2020 um 16:45 schrieb Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in =
a single interaction<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; This sounds a bit incomplete to me. I assume the user would =
approve =E2=80=9Ethe attestation of identity claims=E2=80=9C. I =
furthermore think the user would approve =E2=80=9Eaccess to multiple =
APIs=E2=80=9C. I would prefer API over resource because it is more =
universal. For example, the protocol could also be used to create =
resources.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;Point taken, but this isn=E2=80=99t meant to be an =
exhaustive list of what it can do, merely the list of things we=E2=80=99re=
 positive we want it to do. I also prefer =E2=80=9CAPI=E2=80=9D over =
=E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D, but concede that =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D =
can be a writeable thing too. Even then I=E2=80=99m happy to tweak the =
language here. <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; -- <br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Txauth mailing list<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br class=3D"">=

&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
CC: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alternative charter writeup
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From nobody Sat Jan 18 06:02:13 2020
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	charset=utf-8

That=E2=80=99s a reasonable take, thanks for bringing up the discussion.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 17, 2020, at 10:59 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> My experience is that people will stretch and comfort the semantics of =
=E2=80=9Cidentity claims=E2=80=9D to fit this use cases. I=E2=80=99m =
fine with deferring the discussion to the WG, provided that we agree the =
charter doesn=E2=80=99t rule out the possibility.
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
>> On Jan 17, 2020, at 5:49 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BF I=E2=80=99m thinking this as well =E2=80=94 I think it=E2=80=99=
s the kind of detail that the WG can sort out, and that=E2=80=99s what I =
mean by figuring out a way to generalize my point #3 below into =
Annabelle=E2=80=99s use cases. I=E2=80=99m for figuring it out if we can =
do it, but not at the expense of what I=E2=80=99m seeing as a pretty =
clear set of semantics already.=20
>>=20
>> VoT =3D=3D Vectors of Trust, RFC8485. A way to communicate =
information about the user logging in, basically authentication context =
but with more dimensions.
>>=20
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>> On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:00 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> I was thinking that other kinds of delegation results would be yet =
another top level request, and matching response. Since it is not a =
widely deployed use case today, it would be an extension to the core =
protocol.
>>>=20
>>> Justin:  What to you mean by VoT?
>>>=20
>>> wrt. returning claims, vs access to claims, I think it is an =
important discussion -- but let's put a pin in that for discussion in =
the WG once we are formed! I don't think that needs to be in the =
charter, but happy to be convinced otherwise.=20
>>> =E1=90=A7
>>>=20
>>> On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 2:49 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>>> I=E2=80=99m cautiously Ok with having resource inlining be in scope =
=E2=80=94 IF we can generalize it from the identity case specifically.
>>>=20
>>> To do what you=E2=80=99re asking for though, the WG can still be =
chartered to solve identity (which we know is a well-established and =
understood use case), but also allow other things.=20
>>>=20
>>> This gets back to a fundamental question that I don=E2=80=99t have a =
clear answer for yet: what do you get back at the end of a transaction? =
Right now we=E2=80=99ve got a clear call for three things:
>>>=20
>>> 1. Access tokens to call APIs
>>> 2. Transaction handles to continue the transaction later (like a =
refresh token but better)
>>> 3. User identity claims
>>>=20
>>> Maybe the mechanism we use for #3 can be generalized, or maybe =
there=E2=80=99s even a good way to provide switches for #1, #2, and #3.=20=

>>>=20
>>> And while we=E2=80=99re on the topic of #3, I think there=E2=80=99s =
a strong case to be made that it should NOT be a user=E2=80=99s profile =
information, but rather just enough information to identify the user to =
the RP. If the RP wants to pull more profile info, it can do so via an =
API. This keeps us out of the anti-pattern that SAML has of always =
sending all claims about a user whether the RP needs them or not. But =
the RP will at least need to know if it has to request the claims, and =
we can do that by a simple enough structure like:
>>>=20
>>> user: {
>>>   =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Chttp://foo.bar/ =
<http://foo.bar/>=E2=80=9C,
>>>   =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9C12387yhjfre=E2=80=9D,
>>>   =E2=80=9Clast_updated=E2=80=9D: 54239084
>>> }
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> You can add VoT and other things that can vary per-login here as =
well. But I shouldn=E2=80=99t be sending you the user=E2=80=99s name and =
address every time they log in =E2=80=94 as an RP you only need to get =
that if it=E2=80=99s a new account or if it=E2=80=99s been updated since =
you last saw it. You can=E2=80=99t handle that if you=E2=80=99re pushing =
all the claims in the response: Since the RP doesn=E2=80=99t know who =
the user is until after this stage, it can=E2=80=99t tell that =
information to the IdP ahead of time and therefore the IdP is forced to =
always send it just in case the RP might need it. But by telling the RP =
an identifier for the user and a tag of when any of their information =
was last updated I can make the decision whether or not to pull =
information at the RP in an intelligent fashion if I want to.
>>>=20
>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>=20
>>> > On Jan 16, 2020, at 5:29 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>> >=20
>>> > The same could be said for any resource, particularly in scenarios =
where the interaction was kicked off so that the SP can perform a =
specific action initiated by the user (e.g., charging a credit card or =
account, publishing a message to a message board or social media feed, =
retrieving a specific document or image).
>>> >=20
>>> > Consider a flow like the following:
>>> > 1. The end user is on a client website that provides a photo =
printing service, clicks the "Print from CloudStorageProvider" button.
>>> > 4. The client initates TxAuth via CloudStorageProvider's =
transaction endpoint, requesting a URL for a photo to be selected by the =
end user.
>>> > 5. CloudStorageProvider returns an interact_url pointing to its =
AS.
>>> > 6. The client redirects the user agent to the AS.
>>> > 7. The end user signs in, and selects the photo they want to =
print, and confirms authorization to share with the client.
>>> > 8. The AS redirects the user agent back to client.
>>> > 9. The client calls back to CloudStorageProvider's transaction =
endpoint to continue the TxAuth transaction.
>>> > 10. CloudStorageProvider returns confirmation that the =
authorization was granted, along with the URL for the selected photo.
>>> >=20
>>> > This is identical to the identity use case, we've just replaced =
identity claims with a URL to a photo. I see a lot of value in =
encouraging one-time authorization of specific actions like this, and if =
we're going to support inlining of resources for identity claims anyway, =
it's not a big stretch to allow for arbitrary resource types. I do think =
it's fair to narrowly scope the kinds of resource *schemas* the WG will =
define (e.g., defining core identity claims like OIDC did), but the =
inlining mechanism should be flexible (e.g., not limiting this to claims =
about the end user identity, like OIDC did).
>>> >=20
>>> > =E2=80=93=20
>>> > Annabelle Richard Backman
>>> > AWS Identity
>>> >=20
>>> >=20
>>> > =EF=BB=BFOn 1/16/20, 12:59 PM, "Txauth on behalf of Justin Richer" =
<txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>>> >=20
>>> >    I think that=E2=80=99s exactly the reason =E2=80=94 the case of =
getting information about the user directly from the TX endpoint is well =
established. People don=E2=80=99t want to make another round trip just =
to figure out who=E2=80=99s there, when a lot of time that=E2=80=99s the =
first thing they care about, and then the=E2=80=99d make the =
determination of whether to follow other APIs after that.=20
>>> >=20
>>> >    So if I can send you a very basic set of authn info from the =
callback, like an identifier and VoT style login information, then you =
can figure out if you need to know more about that user or not. But =
these basic claims do get elevated to the same level as other returned =
artifacts from the transaction, like the access tokens.
>>> >=20
>>> >     =E2=80=94 Justin
>>> >=20
>>> >> On Jan 16, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>> >>=20
>>> >> The only reason I can think of to single out identity within the =
charter is if there is some work or feature that is within scope for the =
working group, but only for identity claims (e.g., returning identity =
claims from the transaction endpoint). Repeating a question I posed =
earlier, what is it about identity claims that make them worthy of =
special consideration?
>>> >>=20
>>> >> =E2=80=93=20
>>> >> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>> >> AWS Identity
>>> >>=20
>>> >>=20
>>> >> On 1/16/20, 8:51 AM, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>>> >>=20
>>> >>   On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>> wrote:
>>> >>>=20
>>> >>>=20
>>> >>>=20
>>> >>>> Am 16.01.2020 um 16:45 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>:
>>> >>>>=20
>>> >>>> - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in a =
single interaction
>>> >>>=20
>>> >>> This sounds a bit incomplete to me. I assume the user would =
approve =E2=80=9Ethe attestation of identity claims=E2=80=9C. I =
furthermore think the user would approve =E2=80=9Eaccess to multiple =
APIs=E2=80=9C. I would prefer API over resource because it is more =
universal. For example, the protocol could also be used to create =
resources.
>>> >>=20
>>> >>   Point taken, but this isn=E2=80=99t meant to be an exhaustive =
list of what it can do, merely the list of things we=E2=80=99re positive =
we want it to do. I also prefer =E2=80=9CAPI=E2=80=9D over =
=E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D, but concede that =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D =
can be a writeable thing too. Even then I=E2=80=99m happy to tweak the =
language here.=20
>>> >>=20
>>> >>    =E2=80=94 Justin
>>> >>=20
>>> >=20
>>> >    --=20
>>> >    Txauth mailing list
>>> >    Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
>>> >    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>
>>> >=20
>>> >=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


--Apple-Mail=_9D8A0EBE-4BC0-473D-BD25-25B8DB862FDA
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s a reasonable take, thanks for bringing up the =
discussion.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=
=94 Justin<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 17, 2020, at 10:59 AM, Richard =
Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D"">

<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">
My experience is that people will stretch and comfort the semantics of =
=E2=80=9Cidentity claims=E2=80=9D to fit this use cases. I=E2=80=99m =
fine with deferring the discussion to the WG, provided that we agree the =
charter doesn=E2=80=99t rule out the possibility.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Jan 17, 2020, at 5:49 AM, Justin =
Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">=EF=BB=BF I=E2=80=99m thinking this as well =
=E2=80=94 I think it=E2=80=99s the kind of detail that the WG can sort =
out, and that=E2=80=99s what I mean by figuring out a way to generalize =
my point #3 below into Annabelle=E2=80=99s use cases. I=E2=80=99m for =
figuring it out if we can do it, but not
 at the expense of what I=E2=80=99m seeing as a pretty clear set of =
semantics already.&nbsp;
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">VoT =3D=3D Vectors of Trust, RFC8485. A way to =
communicate information about the user logging in, basically =
authentication context but with more dimensions.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:00 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I was thinking that other kinds of =
delegation results would be yet another top level request, and matching =
response. Since it is not a widely deployed use case today, it would be =
an extension to the core protocol.
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Justin:&nbsp; What to you mean by VoT?</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">wrt. returning claims, vs access to claims, I think it =
is an important discussion -- but let's put a pin in that for discussion =
in the WG once we are formed! I don't think&nbsp;that needs to be in the =
charter, but happy to be convinced otherwise.&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px" class=3D""><img =
alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3Db76c3490-3177-4d54-814e-946c84fd9=
15b" class=3D"" data-unique-identifier=3D""><font color=3D"#ffffff" =
size=3D"1" class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</font></div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 2:49 PM =
Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I=E2=80=99m cautiously Ok with having resource inlining be in scope =E2=80=
=94 IF we can generalize it from the identity case specifically.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
To do what you=E2=80=99re asking for though, the WG can still be =
chartered to solve identity (which we know is a well-established and =
understood use case), but also allow other things.
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
This gets back to a fundamental question that I don=E2=80=99t have a =
clear answer for yet: what do you get back at the end of a transaction? =
Right now we=E2=80=99ve got a clear call for three things:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
1. Access tokens to call APIs<br class=3D"">
2. Transaction handles to continue the transaction later (like a refresh =
token but better)<br class=3D"">
3. User identity claims<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Maybe the mechanism we use for #3 can be generalized, or maybe there=E2=80=
=99s even a good way to provide switches for #1, #2, and #3.
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
And while we=E2=80=99re on the topic of #3, I think there=E2=80=99s a =
strong case to be made that it should NOT be a user=E2=80=99s profile =
information, but rather just enough information to identify the user to =
the RP. If the RP wants to pull more profile info, it can do so via an
 API. This keeps us out of the anti-pattern that SAML has of always =
sending all claims about a user whether the RP needs them or not. But =
the RP will at least need to know if it has to request the claims, and =
we can do that by a simple enough structure like:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
user: {<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://foo.bar/" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http://foo.bar/</a>=E2=80=9C=
,<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9C12387yhjfre=E2=80=9D,<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Clast_updated=E2=80=9D: 54239084<br class=3D"">
}<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
You can add VoT and other things that can vary per-login here as well. =
But I shouldn=E2=80=99t be sending you the user=E2=80=99s name and =
address every time they log in =E2=80=94 as an RP you only need to get =
that if it=E2=80=99s a new account or if it=E2=80=99s been updated since =
you last saw it.
 You can=E2=80=99t handle that if you=E2=80=99re pushing all the claims =
in the response: Since the RP doesn=E2=80=99t know who the user is until =
after this stage, it can=E2=80=99t tell that information to the IdP =
ahead of time and therefore the IdP is forced to always send it just in =
case
 the RP might need it. But by telling the RP an identifier for the user =
and a tag of when any of their information was last updated I can make =
the decision whether or not to pull information at the RP in an =
intelligent fashion if I want to.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; On Jan 16, 2020, at 5:29 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; The same could be said for any resource, particularly in scenarios =
where the interaction was kicked off so that the SP can perform a =
specific action initiated by the user (e.g., charging a credit card or =
account, publishing a message to a message board or
 social media feed, retrieving a specific document or image).<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; Consider a flow like the following:<br class=3D"">
&gt; 1. The end user is on a client website that provides a photo =
printing service, clicks the "Print from CloudStorageProvider" =
button.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 4. The client initates TxAuth via CloudStorageProvider's =
transaction endpoint, requesting a URL for a photo to be selected by the =
end user.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 5. CloudStorageProvider returns an interact_url pointing to its =
AS.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 6. The client redirects the user agent to the AS.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 7. The end user signs in, and selects the photo they want to print, =
and confirms authorization to share with the client.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 8. The AS redirects the user agent back to client.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 9. The client calls back to CloudStorageProvider's transaction =
endpoint to continue the TxAuth transaction.<br class=3D"">
&gt; 10. CloudStorageProvider returns confirmation that the =
authorization was granted, along with the URL for the selected photo.<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; This is identical to the identity use case, we've just replaced =
identity claims with a URL to a photo. I see a lot of value in =
encouraging one-time authorization of specific actions like this, and if =
we're going to support inlining of resources for identity
 claims anyway, it's not a big stretch to allow for arbitrary resource =
types. I do think it's fair to narrowly scope the kinds of resource =
*schemas* the WG will define (e.g., defining core identity claims like =
OIDC did), but the inlining mechanism should be
 flexible (e.g., not limiting this to claims about the end user =
identity, like OIDC did).<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; =E2=80=93 <br class=3D"">
&gt; Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D"">
&gt; AWS Identity<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; =EF=BB=BFOn 1/16/20, 12:59 PM, "Txauth on behalf of Justin Richer" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; I think that=E2=80=99s exactly the reason =E2=80=94 =
the case of getting information about the user directly from the TX =
endpoint is well established. People don=E2=80=99t want to make another =
round trip just to figure out who=E2=80=99s there, when a lot of time =
that=E2=80=99s the first thing
 they care about, and then the=E2=80=99d make the determination of =
whether to follow other APIs after that.
<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; So if I can send you a very basic set of authn info =
from the callback, like an identifier and VoT style login information, =
then you can figure out if you need to know more about that user or not. =
But these basic claims do get elevated to the same level
 as other returned artifacts from the transaction, like the access =
tokens.<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On Jan 16, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The only reason I can think of to single out identity within =
the charter is if there is some work or feature that is within scope for =
the working group, but only for identity claims (e.g., returning =
identity claims from the transaction endpoint). Repeating
 a question I posed earlier, what is it about identity claims that make =
them worthy of special consideration?<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=93 <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; AWS Identity<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On 1/16/20, 8:51 AM, "Justin Richer" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Am 16.01.2020 um 16:45 schrieb Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Approval of identity claims and multiple resources in =
a single interaction<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; This sounds a bit incomplete to me. I assume the user would =
approve =E2=80=9Ethe attestation of identity claims=E2=80=9C. I =
furthermore think the user would approve =E2=80=9Eaccess to multiple =
APIs=E2=80=9C. I would prefer API over resource because it is more =
universal. For example, the
 protocol could also be used to create resources.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;Point taken, but this isn=E2=80=99t meant to be an =
exhaustive list of what it can do, merely the list of things we=E2=80=99re=
 positive we want it to do. I also prefer =E2=80=9CAPI=E2=80=9D over =
=E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D, but concede that =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D =
can be a writeable thing too. Even then I=E2=80=99m happy
 to tweak the language here. <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; -- <br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Txauth mailing list<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<span class=3D"">-- </span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">Txauth mailing list</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a></span><br =
class=3D"">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>

</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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--Apple-Mail=_54A76FB4-0721-4393-8135-76E950556CCA
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Thanks for all the feedback and discussion on the last round of the =
charter. I=E2=80=99ve made a few tweaks to it based on the conversations =
on this list, and a couple off-list, and have incorporated them here.


This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
authorization, identity, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not =
enabled by OAuth 2.0.

The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple =
the interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from =
the delegation channel, which happens directly between the client and =
the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2.0 which is initiated =
by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client and AS =
will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interaction =
mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This decoupling avoids many of the =
security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as =
providing a non-invasive path for supporting future types of clients and =
interaction channels.

Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:

- Fine-grained specification of access
- Approval of AS attestation to identity claims
- Approval of multiple resources and APIs in a single interaction
- Separation between the party authorizing access and the party =
operating the client requesting access
- Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types of =
client applications

The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:

- Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
- User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
- Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
- Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
- Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through the =
delegation process

Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the =
protocol lifecycle including:

- Discovery of the authorization server
- Revocation of active tokens
- Query of token rights by resource servers

Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be =
backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new =
protocol where possible.

While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where =
possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols =
such as COAP.

I would really appreciate the security AD=E2=80=99s weighing in at this =
stage. Thanks again everyone!

 =E2=80=94 Justin=

--Apple-Mail=_54A76FB4-0721-4393-8135-76E950556CCA
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Thanks for all the feedback and discussion on the last round =
of the charter. I=E2=80=99ve made a few tweaks to it based on the =
conversations on this list, and a couple off-list, and have incorporated =
them here.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
authorization, identity, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not =
enabled by OAuth 2.0.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">The delegation =
process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the protocol, each =
performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple the interaction =
channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from the delegation =
channel, which happens directly between the client and the authorization =
server (in contrast with OAuth 2.0 which is initiated by the client =
redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client and AS will involve =
the authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms =
indicated by the protocol. This decoupling avoids many of the security =
concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as providing a =
non-invasive path for supporting future types of clients and interaction =
channels.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Additionally, the =
delegation process will allow for:</div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- =
Fine-grained specification of access</div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">- Approval of AS attestation to identity claims</div><div =
class=3D"">- Approval of multiple resources and APIs in a single =
interaction</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Separation =
between the party authorizing access and the party operating the client =
requesting access</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Web, =
mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types of client =
applications</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">The group will =
define extension points for this protocol to allow for flexibility in =
areas including:</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Cryptographic =
agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession&nbsp;</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- User =
interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods</div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Mechanisms for providing user, software, =
organization, and other pieces of information used in authorization =
decisions</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Token =
presentation mechanisms and key bindings</div><div class=3D"">- =
Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through the =
delegation process</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Additionally, the =
group will provide mechanisms for management of the protocol lifecycle =
including:</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Discovery of =
the authorization server</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- =
Revocation of active tokens</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- =
Query of token rights by resource servers</div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or =
expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, =
the group will&nbsp;attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible.</div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"">While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for =
communication between the client and the authorization server, the =
working group will seek to take advantage of optimization features of =
HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and will strive to&nbsp;enable simple =
mapping to other protocols such as =
COAP.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I would really appreciate the security =
AD=E2=80=99s weighing in at this stage. Thanks again everyone!</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 =
Justin</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_54A76FB4-0721-4393-8135-76E950556CCA--


From nobody Mon Jan 20 08:55:22 2020
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Subject: [Txauth] HTTP Signing Draft in HTTP WG
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As many of you know, Annabelle and I have put forward a general-purpose =
HTTP Signing specification in the HTTP Working Group, at least initially =
based on the old Cavage signatures spec that=E2=80=99s been used in the =
wild. We expect a number of important changes to happen as it goes =
through the standards process (which is to say, we aren=E2=80=99t =
approaching this to get a stamp on existing code), including some key =
things that would allow it to be used for one of TxAuth=E2=80=99s proof =
os possession mechanisms. In fact, I=E2=80=99ve implemented a version of =
the Cavage draft in the XYZ prototype alongside DPoP style signatures =
and my old OAuth HTTP Signing draft (which is now expired).=20

I believe this work will be an important building block for TxAuth, =
alongside MTLS, JOSE, and other crypto systems.=20

The new draft is currently going through its call for adoption within =
the HTTP WG, and if you have any interest in this work moving forward, =
please join the thread on the HTTP list to show your support for the =
draft. The Call For Adoption is currently open and runs through Jan 31.

Thanks,
 =E2=80=94 Justin=


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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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another NIT: Approval of =E2=80=9Caccess to=E2=80=9D multiple resources =
and APIs in a single interaction

> On 20. Jan 2020, at 19:05, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> NIT: Mixed verb tenses in the last sentence of paragraph 2. Replace =
=E2=80=9Cas well as providing=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cand provides=E2=80=9D=
.
> =20
> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
> =20
> =20
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu>
> Date: Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 6:16 AM
> To: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> Subject: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
> =20
> Thanks for all the feedback and discussion on the last round of the =
charter. I=E2=80=99ve made a few tweaks to it based on the conversations =
on this list, and a couple off-list, and have incorporated them here.
> =20
>> =20
>> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
authorization, identity, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not =
enabled by OAuth 2.0.
>> =20
>> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple =
the interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from =
the delegation channel, which happens directly between the client and =
the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2.0 which is initiated =
by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client and AS =
will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interaction =
mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This decoupling avoids many of the =
security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as =
providing a non-invasive path for supporting future types of clients and =
interaction channels.
>> =20
>> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>> =20
>> - Fine-grained specification of access
>> - Approval of AS attestation to identity claims
>> - Approval of multiple resources and APIs in a single interaction
>> - Separation between the party authorizing access and the party =
operating the client requesting access
>> - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types =
of client applications
>> =20
>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for =
flexibility in areas including:
>> =20
>> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
>> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>> - Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through =
the delegation process
>> =20
>> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the =
protocol lifecycle including:
>> =20
>> - Discovery of the authorization server
>> - Revocation of active tokens
>> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>> =20
>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new =
protocol where possible.
>> =20
>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where =
possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols =
such as COAP.
> =20
> I would really appreciate the security AD=E2=80=99s weighing in at =
this stage. Thanks again everyone!
> =20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


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From nobody Tue Jan 21 10:47:46 2020
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 13:47:35 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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Thanks, both of those nits make sense and we=E2=80=99ll be sure to =
incorporate them.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 21, 2020, at 5:56 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote:
>=20
> another NIT: Approval of =E2=80=9Caccess to=E2=80=9D multiple =
resources and APIs in a single interaction
>=20
>> On 20. Jan 2020, at 19:05, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> NIT: Mixed verb tenses in the last sentence of paragraph 2. Replace =
=E2=80=9Cas well as providing=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cand provides=E2=80=9D=
.
>>=20
>> =E2=80=93=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> AWS Identity
>>=20
>>=20
>> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu>
>> Date: Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 6:16 AM
>> To: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
>>=20
>> Thanks for all the feedback and discussion on the last round of the =
charter. I=E2=80=99ve made a few tweaks to it based on the conversations =
on this list, and a couple off-list, and have incorporated them here.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
authorization, identity, and API access. This protocol will allow an =
authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an =
authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will =
include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not =
enabled by OAuth 2.0.
>>>=20
>>> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the =
protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple =
the interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from =
the delegation channel, which happens directly between the client and =
the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2.0 which is initiated =
by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client and AS =
will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interaction =
mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This decoupling avoids many of the =
security concerns and technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as =
providing a non-invasive path for supporting future types of clients and =
interaction channels.
>>>=20
>>> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
>>>=20
>>> - Fine-grained specification of access
>>> - Approval of AS attestation to identity claims
>>> - Approval of multiple resources and APIs in a single interaction
>>> - Separation between the party authorizing access and the party =
operating the client requesting access
>>> - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types =
of client applications
>>>=20
>>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow =
for flexibility in areas including:
>>>=20
>>> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of =
possession=20
>>> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
>>> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions
>>> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
>>> - Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through =
the delegation process
>>>=20
>>> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of =
the protocol lifecycle including:
>>>=20
>>> - Discovery of the authorization server
>>> - Revocation of active tokens
>>> - Query of token rights by resource servers
>>>=20
>>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to =
be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will =
attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new =
protocol where possible.
>>>=20
>>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where =
possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols =
such as COAP.
>>=20
>> I would really appreciate the security AD=E2=80=99s weighing in at =
this stage. Thanks again everyone!
>>=20
>> =E2=80=94 Justin
>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>=20


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From nobody Tue Jan 28 03:29:32 2020
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter
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Hi Kim, thanks for the feedback. Answers inline, below.

> On Jan 28, 2020, at 1:57 AM, Kim <kim@identityblog.com> wrote:
>=20
> Dear Justin,
>=20
> The current wording of the draft charter raised questions for me that =
others might share. Clarifying these would help those of us not familiar =
with the work to date.
>=20
> > This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
authorization, identity, and API access.
>=20
> Can you please expand on what you mean by delegation of identity and =
whether that leverages claims and tokens as defined in OpenID Connect?
>=20

We would not necessarily be using the exact claims and mechanisms in =
OIDC.

> > The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely =
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect =
(an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by =
OAuth 2.0.
>=20
> I understand and support the motivations to rework the authorization =
flows.  However, the identity representations in OpenID Connect have =
already shown themselves to work well in conveying the identity of the =
end user. It seems prudent to avoid the confusion and complexity that =
would result from introducing new mechanisms to do the same thing. Will =
the enhancements to the authorization leverage what already works and =
has become a unifying technology?
>=20

And when OIDC was invented, SAML had already been shown to work well in =
conveying the identity of an end user. I believe we can make a similar =
leap forward here. This is not just a new conveyance mechanism for OIDC, =
but it will certainly learn from it as OIDC learned from SAML and other =
things that came before.

> > This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access to =
client software through an authorization server=E2=80=A6=20
>=20
> > The client and AS will involve the authorizing party as necessary =
through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.=20
>=20
> What is the authorizing party? Is that one of the roles in the =
protocol?  Is it the end user?
>=20

It=E2=80=99s the OAuth/UMA =E2=80=9CResource Owner=E2=80=9D, which might =
be the user using the client software and might be someone else that the =
AS can contact through other means.=20

> > Approval of AS attestation to identity claims
>=20
> Does this mean that the AS is approving of the claims and conveying =
that approval to another party (and what party would that be)?=20
>=20
No, the authorizing party is approving the claims and the AS is =
conveying the identity claims and the delegated access token to the =
client.=20

> By identity claims are you leveraging claims as defined in OpenID =
Connect?
>=20

Not necessarily, but they=E2=80=99re on the table as items to consider.

> Are the identity claims about the end user =E2=80=93 or other subjects =
as well?
>=20

Generally speaking yes, though in the multi-user case (CIBA, UMA, and =
some device-flow use cases today), the claims of the authorizing party =
are being conveyed to the end user of the client, who might be a =
different party. This is an advanced use case, though, so I see it as =
something we can enable but not likely to be the most common use case, =
which is conveying the current user=E2=80=99s claims to a piece of =
software that they=E2=80=99re using.

> > Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions =E2=80=93=20
>=20
> Could you elaborate on what information about users would be =
supplemental to those expressed as claims?  Also, would information =
about software and organization be expressed as claims?=20
>=20

How the user logged in today, how the user was proofed when they got the =
account, the status of the client software that was making the request =
at the time, etc. So yes, software and organization could also be =
represented as claims, though I can also imagine those being in =
different data structures.=20
> > Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through =
the delegation process
>=20
> Could you please explain what is meant by this goal and how it relates =
to identity?
>=20

At its core this isn=E2=80=99t an identity protocol, but a delegation =
protocol. One of the core things that it can delegate is knowledge of =
the identity of the user. This is how OIDC is built on top of OAuth 2, =
and we=E2=80=99re looking at repeating that kind of layering but in a =
more direct way as possible.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> Thanks!
>=20
> Kim Cameron
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Kim, thanks for the feedback. Answers inline, below.<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 28, 2020, at 1:57 AM, Kim &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" =
class=3D"">kim@identityblog.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: =
14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">Dear Justin,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">The current wording of =
the draft charter raised questions for me that others might share. =
Clarifying these would help those of us not familiar with the work to =
date.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 8pt 0.5in; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: 14.699999809265137px; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">&gt; This group is chartered to develop a =
delegation protocol for authorization, identity, and API access.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">Can you please expand on =
what you mean by delegation of identity and whether that leverages =
claims and tokens as defined in OpenID =
Connect?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>We would not necessarily be using the exact claims =
and mechanisms in OIDC.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: =
15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: =
14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt 0.5in; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">&gt; The use cases =
supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases =
currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension of =
OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">I understand and support =
the motivations to rework the authorization flows.&nbsp; However, the =
identity representations in OpenID Connect have already shown themselves =
to work well in conveying the identity of the end user. It seems prudent =
to avoid the confusion and complexity that would result from introducing =
new mechanisms to do the same thing. Will the enhancements to the =
authorization leverage what already works and has become a unifying =
technology?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>And when OIDC was invented, SAML had already been =
shown to work well in conveying the identity of an end user. I believe =
we can make a similar leap forward here. This is not just a new =
conveyance mechanism for OIDC, but it will certainly learn from it as =
OIDC learned from SAML and other things that came before.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: =
14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt 0.5in; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">&gt; This protocol will =
allow an authorizing party to delegate access to client software through =
an authorization server=E2=80=A6<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt 0.5in; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">&gt; The client and AS =
will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interaction =
mechanisms indicated by the protocol.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">What is the authorizing =
party? Is that one of the roles in the protocol?&nbsp; Is it the end =
user?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>It=E2=80=99s the OAuth/UMA =E2=80=9CResource =
Owner=E2=80=9D, which might be the user using the client software and =
might be someone else that the AS can contact through other =
means.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: =
15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: =
14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt 0.5in; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">&gt; Approval of AS =
attestation to identity claims<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: =
15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: =
14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">Does this mean that the =
AS is approving of the claims and conveying that approval to another =
party (and what party would that =
be)?&nbsp;</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>No, the authorizing =
party is approving the claims and the AS is conveying the identity =
claims and the delegated access token to the client.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: =
14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">By identity claims are =
you leveraging claims as defined in OpenID =
Connect?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Not =
necessarily, but they=E2=80=99re on the table as items to =
consider.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: =
15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: =
14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">Are the identity claims =
about the end user =E2=80=93 or other subjects as =
well?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Generally speaking yes, though in the multi-user =
case (CIBA, UMA, and some device-flow use cases today), the claims of =
the authorizing party are being conveyed to the end user of the client, =
who might be a different party. This is an advanced use case, though, so =
I see it as something we can enable but not likely to be the most common =
use case, which is conveying the current user=E2=80=99s claims to a =
piece of software that they=E2=80=99re using.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: =
14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt 0.5in; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">&gt; Mechanisms for =
providing user, software, organization, and other pieces of information =
used in authorization decisions =E2=80=93<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">Could you elaborate on =
what information about users would be supplemental to those expressed as =
claims?&nbsp; Also, would information about software and organization be =
expressed as claims?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></p></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>How the user logged in today, how =
the user was proofed when they got the account, the status of the client =
software that was making the request at the time, etc. So yes, software =
and organization could also be represented as claims, though I can also =
imagine those being in different data structures.&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: =
15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: =
14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt 0.5in; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
line-height: 14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, =
37, 41); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">&gt; Optimization of =
information and API access beyond identity through the delegation =
process<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: 14.699999809265137px; =
font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">Could you please explain what is meant by this goal =
and how it relates to =
identity?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>At its core this isn=E2=80=99t an identity =
protocol, but a delegation protocol. One of the core things that it can =
delegate is knowledge of the identity of the user. This is how OIDC is =
built on top of OAuth 2, and we=E2=80=99re looking at repeating that =
kind of layering but in a more direct way as possible.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: =
14.699999809265137px; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Thanks!<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: =
15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">Kim Cameron<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 8pt; line-height: 15.399999618530273px; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">--<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br=
 style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Txauth mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a></div></blockqu=
ote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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Cc: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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Small suggestion: s/porting/migrating/

Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be
backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group
will attempt to simplify porting *migrating* from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID
Connect to the new protocol where possible.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:47 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> Thanks, both of those nits make sense and we=E2=80=99ll be sure to incorp=
orate
> them.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> > On Jan 21, 2020, at 5:56 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt <
> torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote:
> >
> > another NIT: Approval of =E2=80=9Caccess to=E2=80=9D multiple resources=
 and APIs in a
> single interaction
> >
> >> On 20. Jan 2020, at 19:05, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=3D
> 40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> NIT: Mixed verb tenses in the last sentence of paragraph 2. Replace =
=E2=80=9Cas
> well as providing=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cand provides=E2=80=9D.
> >>
> >> =E2=80=93
> >> Annabelle Richard Backman
> >> AWS Identity
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Richer <
> jricher@mit.edu>
> >> Date: Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 6:16 AM
> >> To: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
> >>
> >> Thanks for all the feedback and discussion on the last round of the
> charter. I=E2=80=99ve made a few tweaks to it based on the conversations =
on this
> list, and a couple off-list, and have incorporated them here.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for
> authorization, identity, and API access. This protocol will allow an
> authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an
> authorization server. The use cases supported by this protocol will inclu=
de
> widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID
> Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled =
by
> OAuth 2.0.
> >>>
> >>> The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the
> protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple the
> interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from the de=
legation
> channel, which happens directly between the client and the authorization
> server (in contrast with OAuth 2.0 which is initiated by the client
> redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client and AS will involve t=
he
> authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated b=
y
> the protocol. This decoupling avoids many of the security concerns and
> technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as providing a non-invasive pat=
h
> for supporting future types of clients and interaction channels.
> >>>
> >>> Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:
> >>>
> >>> - Fine-grained specification of access
> >>> - Approval of AS attestation to identity claims
> >>> - Approval of multiple resources and APIs in a single interaction
> >>> - Separation between the party authorizing access and the party
> operating the client requesting access
> >>> - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types
> of client applications
> >>>
> >>> The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for
> flexibility in areas including:
> >>>
> >>> - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of
> possession
> >>> - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods
> >>> - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other
> pieces of information used in authorization decisions
> >>> - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings
> >>> - Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through
> the delegation process
> >>>
> >>> Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the
> protocol lifecycle including:
> >>>
> >>> - Discovery of the authorization server
> >>> - Revocation of active tokens
> >>> - Query of token rights by resource servers
> >>>
> >>> Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to
> be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will
> attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new
> protocol where possible.
> >>>
> >>> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication
> between the client and the authorization server, the working group will
> seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where
> possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols suc=
h
> as COAP.
> >>
> >> I would really appreciate the security AD=E2=80=99s weighing in at thi=
s stage.
> Thanks again everyone!
> >>
> >> =E2=80=94 Justin
> >> --
> >> Txauth mailing list
> >> Txauth@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> >
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Small suggestion: s/porting/migrating/</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Although the artifacts for this work ar=
e not intended or expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or Ope=
nID Connect, the group will=C2=A0attempt to simplify <strike>porting</strik=
e>=C2=A0<b>migrating</b> from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new proto=
col where possible.<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:47 AM Justin Riche=
r &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Thanks, both of tho=
se nits make sense and we=E2=80=99ll be sure to incorporate them. <br>
<br>
=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<br>
<br>
&gt; On Jan 21, 2020, at 5:56 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target=3D"_blank">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; another NIT: Approval of =E2=80=9Caccess to=E2=80=9D multiple resource=
s and APIs in a single interaction<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On 20. Jan 2020, at 19:05, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;richanna=
=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40amazo=
n.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; NIT: Mixed verb tenses in the last sentence of paragraph 2. Replac=
e =E2=80=9Cas well as providing=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cand provides=E2=80=
=9D.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=93 <br>
&gt;&gt; Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
&gt;&gt; AWS Identity<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; From: Txauth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Justin Richer &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt=
;<br>
&gt;&gt; Date: Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 6:16 AM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">txa=
uth@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks for all the feedback and discussion on the last round of th=
e charter. I=E2=80=99ve made a few tweaks to it based on the conversations =
on this list, and a couple off-list, and have incorporated them here.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for a=
uthorization, identity, and API access. This protocol will allow an authori=
zing party to delegate access to client software through an authorization s=
erver. The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deploye=
d use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extensi=
on of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties =
in the protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decoupl=
e the interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from th=
e delegation channel, which happens directly between the client and the aut=
horization server (in contrast with OAuth 2.0 which is initiated by the cli=
ent redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client and AS will involve=
 the authorizing party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicate=
d by the protocol. This decoupling avoids many of the security concerns and=
 technical challenges of OAuth 2.0 as well as providing a non-invasive path=
 for supporting future types of clients and interaction channels.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Additionally, the delegation process will allow for:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Fine-grained specification of access<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Approval of AS attestation to identity claims<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Approval of multiple resources and APIs in a single interact=
ion<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Separation between the party authorizing access and the part=
y operating the client requesting access<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other=
 types of client applications<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; The group will define extension points for this protocol to al=
low for flexibility in areas including:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proo=
f of possession <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web method=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and o=
ther pieces of information used in authorization decisions<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Optimization of information and API access beyond identity t=
hrough the delegation process<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management=
 of the protocol lifecycle including:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Discovery of the authorization server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Revocation of active tokens<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Query of token rights by resource servers<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expec=
ted to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group =
will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the n=
ew protocol where possible.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communicat=
ion between the client and the authorization server, the working group will=
 seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where p=
ossible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such a=
s COAP.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; I would really appreciate the security AD=E2=80=99s weighing in at=
 this stage. Thanks again everyone!<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=94 Justin<br>
&gt;&gt; -- <br>
&gt;&gt; Txauth mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a=
><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
-- <br>
Txauth mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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Kim: are you suggesting that supporting OIDC claims be in the charter?

While I think that supporting OIDC claims is desirable, I don't think that
belongs in the charter.

Justin: OIDC claims inherently had to be different from SAML as the syntax
was JSON vs XML.

Are you suggesting that a different document format be used than JSON?

What do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?






On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 3:30 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> Hi Kim, thanks for the feedback. Answers inline, below.
>
> On Jan 28, 2020, at 1:57 AM, Kim <kim@identityblog.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Justin,
>
> The current wording of the draft charter raised questions for me that
> others might share. Clarifying these would help those of us not familiar
> with the work to date.
>
> > This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for
> authorization, identity, and API access.
>
> Can you please expand on what you mean by delegation of identity and
> whether that leverages claims and tokens as defined in OpenID Connect?
>
>
> We would not necessarily be using the exact claims and mechanisms in OIDC=
.
>
> > The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed
> use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extensi=
on
> of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.
>
> I understand and support the motivations to rework the authorization
> flows.  However, the identity representations in OpenID Connect have
> already shown themselves to work well in conveying the identity of the en=
d
> user. It seems prudent to avoid the confusion and complexity that would
> result from introducing new mechanisms to do the same thing. Will the
> enhancements to the authorization leverage what already works and has
> become a unifying technology?
>
>
> And when OIDC was invented, SAML had already been shown to work well in
> conveying the identity of an end user. I believe we can make a similar le=
ap
> forward here. This is not just a new conveyance mechanism for OIDC, but i=
t
> will certainly learn from it as OIDC learned from SAML and other things
> that came before.
>
> > This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access to
> client software through an authorization server=E2=80=A6
>
> > The client and AS will involve the authorizing party as necessary
> through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.
>
> What is the authorizing party? Is that one of the roles in the protocol?
> Is it the end user?
>
>
> It=E2=80=99s the OAuth/UMA =E2=80=9CResource Owner=E2=80=9D, which might =
be the user using the
> client software and might be someone else that the AS can contact through
> other means.
>
> > Approval of AS attestation to identity claims
>
> Does this mean that the AS is approving of the claims and conveying that
> approval to another party (and what party would that be)?
>
> No, the authorizing party is approving the claims and the AS is conveying
> the identity claims and the delegated access token to the client.
>
> By identity claims are you leveraging claims as defined in OpenID Connect=
?
>
>
> Not necessarily, but they=E2=80=99re on the table as items to consider.
>
> Are the identity claims about the end user =E2=80=93 or other subjects as=
 well?
>
>
> Generally speaking yes, though in the multi-user case (CIBA, UMA, and som=
e
> device-flow use cases today), the claims of the authorizing party are bei=
ng
> conveyed to the end user of the client, who might be a different party.
> This is an advanced use case, though, so I see it as something we can
> enable but not likely to be the most common use case, which is conveying
> the current user=E2=80=99s claims to a piece of software that they=E2=80=
=99re using.
>
> > Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pieces
> of information used in authorization decisions =E2=80=93
>
> Could you elaborate on what information about users would be supplemental
> to those expressed as claims?  Also, would information about software and
> organization be expressed as claims?
>
>
> How the user logged in today, how the user was proofed when they got the
> account, the status of the client software that was making the request at
> the time, etc. So yes, software and organization could also be represente=
d
> as claims, though I can also imagine those being in different data
> structures.
>
> > Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through the
> delegation process
>
> Could you please explain what is meant by this goal and how it relates to
> identity?
>
>
> At its core this isn=E2=80=99t an identity protocol, but a delegation pro=
tocol.
> One of the core things that it can delegate is knowledge of the identity =
of
> the user. This is how OIDC is built on top of OAuth 2, and we=E2=80=99re =
looking at
> repeating that kind of layering but in a more direct way as possible.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kim Cameron
>
>
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Kim: are you suggesting that supporting OIDC claims be in =
the charter?<div><br></div><div>While I think that supporting OIDC claims i=
s desirable, I don&#39;t think that belongs in the charter.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Justin: OIDC claims inherently had to be different from SAML as t=
he syntax was JSON vs XML.</div><div><br></div><div>Are you suggesting that=
 a different document format be used than JSON?</div><div><br></div><div>Wh=
at do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020=
 at 3:30 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"=
_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi Kim, thanks for the feedback. Answers inline=
, below.<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 28, 2020, at 1:5=
7 AM, Kim &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" target=3D"_blank">kim=
@identityblog.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-family:He=
lvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weig=
ht:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-hei=
ght:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"=
>Dear Justin,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consola=
s;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">The current wording of the dr=
aft charter raised questions for me that others might share. Clarifying the=
se would help those of us not familiar with the work to date.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-he=
ight:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)=
;background-color:white">&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegati=
on protocol for authorization, identity, and API access.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background=
-color:white">Can you please expand on what you mean by delegation of ident=
ity and whether that leverages claims and tokens as defined in OpenID Conne=
ct?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We would not nec=
essarily be using the exact claims and mechanisms in OIDC.</div><div><br></=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font=
-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;f=
ont-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line=
-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,3=
7,41);background-color:white">&gt; The use cases supported by this protocol=
 will include widely deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 an=
d OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not e=
nabled by OAuth 2.0.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-famil=
y:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">I understand and sup=
port the motivations to rework the authorization flows.=C2=A0 However, the =
identity representations in OpenID Connect have already shown themselves to=
 work well in conveying the identity of the end user. It seems prudent to a=
void the confusion and complexity that would result from introducing new me=
chanisms to do the same thing. Will the enhancements to the authorization l=
everage what already works and has become a unifying technology?</span></p>=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>And when OIDC was invented, SA=
ML had already been shown to work well in conveying the identity of an end =
user. I believe we can make a similar leap forward here. This is not just a=
 new conveyance mechanism for OIDC, but it will certainly learn from it as =
OIDC learned from SAML and other things that came before.</div><div><br></d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-=
size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;fo=
nt-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></=
u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-=
height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,4=
1);background-color:white">&gt; This protocol will allow an authorizing par=
ty to delegate access to client software through an authorization server=E2=
=80=A6<span>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;f=
ont-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; The cl=
ient and AS will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interac=
tion mechanisms indicated by the protocol.<span>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:1=
5.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);backg=
round-color:white">What is the authorizing party? Is that one of the roles =
in the protocol?=C2=A0 Is it the end user?</span></p></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>It=E2=80=99s the OAuth/UMA =E2=80=9CResource Owner=
=E2=80=9D, which might be the user using the client software and might be s=
omeone else that the AS can contact through other means.=C2=A0</div><br><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:1=
2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-fam=
ily:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height=
:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);bac=
kground-color:white">&gt; Approval of AS attestation to identity claims<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;lin=
e-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,3=
7,41);background-color:white">Does this mean that the AS is approving of th=
e claims and conveying that approval to another party (and what party would=
 that be)?=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>No, the authorizin=
g party is approving the claims and the AS is conveying the identity claims=
 and the delegated access token to the client.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:=
12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-fa=
mily:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4=
px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);backgrou=
nd-color:white">By identity claims are you leveraging claims as defined in =
OpenID Connect?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Not neces=
sarily, but they=E2=80=99re on the table as items to consider.</div><div><b=
r><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-s=
ize:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whit=
e-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;fon=
t-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:=
15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);back=
ground-color:white">Are the identity claims about the end user =E2=80=93 or=
 other subjects as well?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>Generally speaking yes, though in the multi-user case (CIBA, UMA, and =
some device-flow use cases today), the claims of the authorizing party are =
being conveyed to the end user of the client, who might be a different part=
y. This is an advanced use case, though, so I see it as something we can en=
able but not likely to be the most common use case, which is conveying the =
current user=E2=80=99s claims to a piece of software that they=E2=80=99re u=
sing.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-heig=
ht:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt=
 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color=
:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; Mechanisms for providing user, =
software, organization, and other pieces of information used in authorizati=
on decisions =E2=80=93<span>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-heig=
ht:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">=
Could you elaborate on what information about users would be supplemental t=
o those expressed as claims?=C2=A0 Also, would information about software a=
nd organization be expressed as claims?<span>=C2=A0</span></span></p></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How the user logged in today, how th=
e user was proofed when they got the account, the status of the client soft=
ware that was making the request at the time, etc. So yes, software and org=
anization could also be represented as claims, though I can also imagine th=
ose being in different data structures.=C2=A0</div><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal=
;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-heig=
ht:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">=
&gt; Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through the=
 delegation process<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:C=
onsolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">Could you please explai=
n what is meant by this goal and how it relates to identity?</span></p></di=
v></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>At its core this isn=E2=80=99t an =
identity protocol, but a delegation protocol. One of the core things that i=
t can delegate is knowledge of the identity of the user. This is how OIDC i=
s built on top of OAuth 2, and we=E2=80=99re looking at repeating that kind=
 of layering but in a more direct way as possible.</div><div><br></div><div=
>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decora=
tion:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:1=
5.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);backg=
round-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">Kim Cameron<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;l=
ine-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p></div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;fon=
t-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">--<span=
>=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font=
-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style=3D"font-family:Helveti=
ca;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:no=
rmal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;di=
splay:inline">Txauth mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;=
font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"mail=
to:Txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div>=
-- <br>
Txauth mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br=
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter
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The claims in OIDC aren=E2=80=99t just JSON, many of them are JWT =
payload elements, which need to be compact so that it could fit better =
into browser redirects and places like that. I contend that we are not =
bound by the same restrictions, so just like with the SAML translations =
of =E2=80=9C<saml:Issuer>=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D we should =
consider what we really need in the new space even if it=E2=80=99s the =
same concepts translated over.

We=E2=80=99d be foolish to ignore them, but also nearly as foolish to =
take them just because they exist and it=E2=80=99s the world we know. =
For instance, we know that the OIDC separation of issuer and subject =
into a pair of values is really confusing to developers and leads to =
people using email address, username, or other incorrect fields as a =
universal identifier. There are some things that we got right, though, =
such as the flat namespace-less JSON data model that allows domain =
extensions.

So just as with anything else in this proposed new work, I am arguing =
that we should take OIDC claims as an influencing input to be evaluated =
in the context of what we=E2=80=99re trying to do. =E2=80=9CWe did it =
this way in OIDC=E2=80=9D is not a sufficient argument for its inclusion =
in TxAuth, and therefore I agree that it does not belong anywhere in the =
charter. But we also need to look at what we did do in OIDC and figure =
out how and if it fits as we=E2=80=99re figuring out solutions.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 28, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Kim: are you suggesting that supporting OIDC claims be in the charter?
>=20
> While I think that supporting OIDC claims is desirable, I don't think =
that belongs in the charter.
>=20
> Justin: OIDC claims inherently had to be different from SAML as the =
syntax was JSON vs XML.
>=20
> Are you suggesting that a different document format be used than JSON?
>=20
> What do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 3:30 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> Hi Kim, thanks for the feedback. Answers inline, below.
>=20
>> On Jan 28, 2020, at 1:57 AM, Kim <kim@identityblog.com =
<mailto:kim@identityblog.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Dear Justin,
>>=20
>> The current wording of the draft charter raised questions for me that =
others might share. Clarifying these would help those of us not familiar =
with the work to date.
>>=20
>> > This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
authorization, identity, and API access.
>>=20
>> Can you please expand on what you mean by delegation of identity and =
whether that leverages claims and tokens as defined in OpenID Connect?
>>=20
>=20
> We would not necessarily be using the exact claims and mechanisms in =
OIDC.
>=20
>> > The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely =
deployed use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect =
(an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by =
OAuth 2.0.
>>=20
>> I understand and support the motivations to rework the authorization =
flows.  However, the identity representations in OpenID Connect have =
already shown themselves to work well in conveying the identity of the =
end user. It seems prudent to avoid the confusion and complexity that =
would result from introducing new mechanisms to do the same thing. Will =
the enhancements to the authorization leverage what already works and =
has become a unifying technology?
>>=20
>=20
> And when OIDC was invented, SAML had already been shown to work well =
in conveying the identity of an end user. I believe we can make a =
similar leap forward here. This is not just a new conveyance mechanism =
for OIDC, but it will certainly learn from it as OIDC learned from SAML =
and other things that came before.
>=20
>> > This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access to =
client software through an authorization server=E2=80=A6=20
>>=20
>> > The client and AS will involve the authorizing party as necessary =
through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.=20
>>=20
>> What is the authorizing party? Is that one of the roles in the =
protocol?  Is it the end user?
>>=20
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s the OAuth/UMA =E2=80=9CResource Owner=E2=80=9D, which =
might be the user using the client software and might be someone else =
that the AS can contact through other means.=20
>=20
>> > Approval of AS attestation to identity claims
>>=20
>> Does this mean that the AS is approving of the claims and conveying =
that approval to another party (and what party would that be)?=20
>>=20
> No, the authorizing party is approving the claims and the AS is =
conveying the identity claims and the delegated access token to the =
client.=20
>=20
>> By identity claims are you leveraging claims as defined in OpenID =
Connect?
>>=20
>=20
> Not necessarily, but they=E2=80=99re on the table as items to =
consider.
>=20
>> Are the identity claims about the end user =E2=80=93 or other =
subjects as well?
>>=20
>=20
> Generally speaking yes, though in the multi-user case (CIBA, UMA, and =
some device-flow use cases today), the claims of the authorizing party =
are being conveyed to the end user of the client, who might be a =
different party. This is an advanced use case, though, so I see it as =
something we can enable but not likely to be the most common use case, =
which is conveying the current user=E2=80=99s claims to a piece of =
software that they=E2=80=99re using.
>=20
>> > Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other =
pieces of information used in authorization decisions =E2=80=93=20
>>=20
>> Could you elaborate on what information about users would be =
supplemental to those expressed as claims?  Also, would information =
about software and organization be expressed as claims?=20
>>=20
>=20
> How the user logged in today, how the user was proofed when they got =
the account, the status of the client software that was making the =
request at the time, etc. So yes, software and organization could also =
be represented as claims, though I can also imagine those being in =
different data structures.=20
>> > Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through =
the delegation process
>>=20
>> Could you please explain what is meant by this goal and how it =
relates to identity?
>>=20
>=20
> At its core this isn=E2=80=99t an identity protocol, but a delegation =
protocol. One of the core things that it can delegate is knowledge of =
the identity of the user. This is how OIDC is built on top of OAuth 2, =
and we=E2=80=99re looking at repeating that kind of layering but in a =
more direct way as possible.
>=20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>> Thanks!
>>=20
>> Kim Cameron
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">The =
claims in OIDC aren=E2=80=99t just JSON, many of them are JWT payload =
elements, which need to be compact so that it could fit better into =
browser redirects and places like that. I contend that we are not bound =
by the same restrictions, so just like with the SAML translations of =
=E2=80=9C&lt;saml:Issuer&gt;=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D we should =
consider what we really need in the new space even if it=E2=80=99s the =
same concepts translated over.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">We=E2=80=99d be foolish to ignore them, but also nearly as =
foolish to take them just because they exist and it=E2=80=99s the world =
we know. For instance, we know that the OIDC separation of issuer and =
subject into a pair of values is really confusing to developers and =
leads to people using email address, username, or other incorrect fields =
as a universal identifier. There are some things that we got right, =
though, such as the flat namespace-less JSON data model that allows =
domain extensions.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">So just as with anything else in this proposed new work, I am =
arguing that we should take OIDC claims as an influencing input to be =
evaluated in the context of what we=E2=80=99re trying to do. =E2=80=9CWe =
did it this way in OIDC=E2=80=9D is not a sufficient argument for its =
inclusion in TxAuth, and therefore I agree that it does not belong =
anywhere in the charter. But we also need to look at what we did do in =
OIDC and figure out how and if it fits as we=E2=80=99re figuring out =
solutions.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan =
28, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Kim: are you suggesting that =
supporting OIDC claims be in the charter?<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">While I think that supporting OIDC =
claims is desirable, I don't think that belongs in the =
charter.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Justin:=
 OIDC claims inherently had to be different from SAML as the syntax was =
JSON vs XML.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Are=
 you suggesting that a different document format be used than =
JSON?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What do =
you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 3:30 AM Justin =
Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">Hi Kim, thanks =
for the feedback. Answers inline, below.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan =
28, 2020, at 1:57 AM, Kim &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">kim@identityblog.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in =
0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">Dear Justin,<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">The current wording of =
the draft charter raised questions for me that others might share. =
Clarifying these would help those of us not familiar with the work to =
date.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt =
0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><s=
pan =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">&gt; This group is =
chartered to develop a delegation protocol for authorization, identity, =
and API access.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">Can you please expand on =
what you mean by delegation of identity and whether that leverages =
claims and tokens as defined in OpenID =
Connect?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We would not necessarily be using the =
exact claims and mechanisms in OIDC.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in =
0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt =
0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><s=
pan =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">&gt; The use cases =
supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases =
currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension of =
OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">I understand and support =
the motivations to rework the authorization flows.&nbsp; However, the =
identity representations in OpenID Connect have already shown themselves =
to work well in conveying the identity of the end user. It seems prudent =
to avoid the confusion and complexity that would result from introducing =
new mechanisms to do the same thing. Will the enhancements to the =
authorization leverage what already works and has become a unifying =
technology?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">And when OIDC was invented, SAML had =
already been shown to work well in conveying the identity of an end =
user. I believe we can make a similar leap forward here. This is not =
just a new conveyance mechanism for OIDC, but it will certainly learn =
from it as OIDC learned from SAML and other things that came =
before.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in =
0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt =
0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><s=
pan =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">&gt; This protocol will =
allow an authorizing party to delegate access to client software through =
an authorization server=E2=80=A6<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt =
0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><s=
pan =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">&gt; The client and AS =
will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interaction =
mechanisms indicated by the protocol.<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">What is the authorizing =
party? Is that one of the roles in the protocol?&nbsp; Is it the end =
user?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s the OAuth/UMA =E2=80=9CResou=
rce Owner=E2=80=9D, which might be the user using the client software =
and might be someone else that the AS can contact through other =
means.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in =
0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt =
0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><s=
pan =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">&gt; Approval of AS =
attestation to identity claims<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">Does this mean that the =
AS is approving of the claims and conveying that approval to another =
party (and what party would that =
be)?&nbsp;</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">No, the =
authorizing party is approving the claims and the AS is conveying the =
identity claims and the delegated access token to the =
client.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in =
0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">By identity claims are =
you leveraging claims as defined in OpenID =
Connect?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>Not necessarily, but they=E2=80=99re on the table as =
items to consider.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in =
0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">Are the identity claims =
about the end user =E2=80=93 or other subjects as =
well?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Generally speaking yes, though in the =
multi-user case (CIBA, UMA, and some device-flow use cases today), the =
claims of the authorizing party are being conveyed to the end user of =
the client, who might be a different party. This is an advanced use =
case, though, so I see it as something we can enable but not likely to =
be the most common use case, which is conveying the current user=E2=80=99s=
 claims to a piece of software that they=E2=80=99re using.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in =
0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt =
0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><s=
pan =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">&gt; Mechanisms for =
providing user, software, organization, and other pieces of information =
used in authorization decisions =E2=80=93<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">Could you elaborate on =
what information about users would be supplemental to those expressed as =
claims?&nbsp; Also, would information about software and organization be =
expressed as claims?<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">How the user logged in =
today, how the user was proofed when they got the account, the status of =
the client software that was making the request at the time, etc. So =
yes, software and organization could also be represented as claims, =
though I can also imagine those being in different data =
structures.&nbsp;</div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in =
0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt =
0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><s=
pan =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">&gt; Optimization of =
information and API access beyond identity through the delegation =
process<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D"">Could you please explain =
what is meant by this goal and how it relates to =
identity?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">At its core this isn=E2=80=99t an =
identity protocol, but a delegation protocol. One of the core things =
that it can delegate is knowledge of the identity of the user. This is =
how OIDC is built on top of OAuth 2, and we=E2=80=99re looking at =
repeating that kind of layering but in a more direct way as =
possible.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in =
0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Than=
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style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Kim =
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style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u =
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nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline" class=3D"">Txauth mailing =
list</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
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ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><a =
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style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
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class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a></div></blockqu=
ote></div><br class=3D""></div>-- <br class=3D"">
Txauth mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
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</blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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CC: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
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Agreed.

Not having subject be a globally unique identifier, nor defining a
concatenation mechanism  has been a developer issue.

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:57 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> The claims in OIDC aren=E2=80=99t just JSON, many of them are JWT payload
> elements, which need to be compact so that it could fit better into brows=
er
> redirects and places like that. I contend that we are not bound by the sa=
me
> restrictions, so just like with the SAML translations of =E2=80=9C<saml:I=
ssuer>=E2=80=9D to
> =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D we should consider what we really need in the new s=
pace even if it=E2=80=99s
> the same concepts translated over.
>
> We=E2=80=99d be foolish to ignore them, but also nearly as foolish to tak=
e them
> just because they exist and it=E2=80=99s the world we know. For instance,=
 we know
> that the OIDC separation of issuer and subject into a pair of values is
> really confusing to developers and leads to people using email address,
> username, or other incorrect fields as a universal identifier. There are
> some things that we got right, though, such as the flat namespace-less JS=
ON
> data model that allows domain extensions.
>
> So just as with anything else in this proposed new work, I am arguing tha=
t
> we should take OIDC claims as an influencing input to be evaluated in the
> context of what we=E2=80=99re trying to do. =E2=80=9CWe did it this way i=
n OIDC=E2=80=9D is not a
> sufficient argument for its inclusion in TxAuth, and therefore I agree th=
at
> it does not belong anywhere in the charter. But we also need to look at
> what we did do in OIDC and figure out how and if it fits as we=E2=80=99re=
 figuring
> out solutions.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Jan 28, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Kim: are you suggesting that supporting OIDC claims be in the charter?
>
> While I think that supporting OIDC claims is desirable, I don't think tha=
t
> belongs in the charter.
>
> Justin: OIDC claims inherently had to be different from SAML as the synta=
x
> was JSON vs XML.
>
> Are you suggesting that a different document format be used than JSON?
>
> What do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 3:30 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> Hi Kim, thanks for the feedback. Answers inline, below.
>>
>> On Jan 28, 2020, at 1:57 AM, Kim <kim@identityblog.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Justin,
>>
>> The current wording of the draft charter raised questions for me that
>> others might share. Clarifying these would help those of us not familiar
>> with the work to date.
>>
>> > This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for
>> authorization, identity, and API access.
>>
>> Can you please expand on what you mean by delegation of identity and
>> whether that leverages claims and tokens as defined in OpenID Connect?
>>
>>
>> We would not necessarily be using the exact claims and mechanisms in OID=
C.
>>
>> > The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed
>> use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extens=
ion
>> of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.
>>
>> I understand and support the motivations to rework the authorization
>> flows.  However, the identity representations in OpenID Connect have
>> already shown themselves to work well in conveying the identity of the e=
nd
>> user. It seems prudent to avoid the confusion and complexity that would
>> result from introducing new mechanisms to do the same thing. Will the
>> enhancements to the authorization leverage what already works and has
>> become a unifying technology?
>>
>>
>> And when OIDC was invented, SAML had already been shown to work well in
>> conveying the identity of an end user. I believe we can make a similar l=
eap
>> forward here. This is not just a new conveyance mechanism for OIDC, but =
it
>> will certainly learn from it as OIDC learned from SAML and other things
>> that came before.
>>
>> > This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access to
>> client software through an authorization server=E2=80=A6
>>
>> > The client and AS will involve the authorizing party as necessary
>> through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.
>>
>> What is the authorizing party? Is that one of the roles in the protocol?
>> Is it the end user?
>>
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s the OAuth/UMA =E2=80=9CResource Owner=E2=80=9D, which might=
 be the user using the
>> client software and might be someone else that the AS can contact throug=
h
>> other means.
>>
>> > Approval of AS attestation to identity claims
>>
>> Does this mean that the AS is approving of the claims and conveying that
>> approval to another party (and what party would that be)?
>>
>> No, the authorizing party is approving the claims and the AS is conveyin=
g
>> the identity claims and the delegated access token to the client.
>>
>> By identity claims are you leveraging claims as defined in OpenID Connec=
t?
>>
>>
>> Not necessarily, but they=E2=80=99re on the table as items to consider.
>>
>> Are the identity claims about the end user =E2=80=93 or other subjects a=
s well?
>>
>>
>> Generally speaking yes, though in the multi-user case (CIBA, UMA, and
>> some device-flow use cases today), the claims of the authorizing party a=
re
>> being conveyed to the end user of the client, who might be a different
>> party. This is an advanced use case, though, so I see it as something we
>> can enable but not likely to be the most common use case, which is
>> conveying the current user=E2=80=99s claims to a piece of software that =
they=E2=80=99re
>> using.
>>
>> > Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other piece=
s
>> of information used in authorization decisions =E2=80=93
>>
>> Could you elaborate on what information about users would be supplementa=
l
>> to those expressed as claims?  Also, would information about software an=
d
>> organization be expressed as claims?
>>
>>
>> How the user logged in today, how the user was proofed when they got the
>> account, the status of the client software that was making the request a=
t
>> the time, etc. So yes, software and organization could also be represent=
ed
>> as claims, though I can also imagine those being in different data
>> structures.
>>
>> > Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through the
>> delegation process
>>
>> Could you please explain what is meant by this goal and how it relates t=
o
>> identity?
>>
>>
>> At its core this isn=E2=80=99t an identity protocol, but a delegation pr=
otocol.
>> One of the core things that it can delegate is knowledge of the identity=
 of
>> the user. This is how OIDC is built on top of OAuth 2, and we=E2=80=99re=
 looking at
>> repeating that kind of layering but in a more direct way as possible.
>>
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Kim Cameron
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>
>>
>> --
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>
>
>

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<div><div><div dir=3D"auto">Agreed.</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">Not having subject be a globally unique identifier, nor d=
efining a concatenation mechanism =C2=A0has been a developer issue.</div></=
div><div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai=
l_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:57 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-bre=
ak:after-white-space">The claims in OIDC aren=E2=80=99t just JSON, many of =
them are JWT payload elements, which need to be compact so that it could fi=
t better into browser redirects and places like that. I contend that we are=
 not bound by the same restrictions, so just like with the SAML translation=
s of =E2=80=9C&lt;saml:Issuer&gt;=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D we shou=
ld consider what we really need in the new space even if it=E2=80=99s the s=
ame concepts translated over.<div><br></div><div>We=E2=80=99d be foolish to=
 ignore them, but also nearly as foolish to take them just because they exi=
st and it=E2=80=99s the world we know. For instance, we know that the OIDC =
separation of issuer and subject into a pair of values is really confusing =
to developers and leads to people using email address, username, or other i=
ncorrect fields as a universal identifier. There are some things that we go=
t right, though, such as the flat namespace-less JSON data model that allow=
s domain extensions.</div><div><br></div><div>So just as with anything else=
 in this proposed new work, I am arguing that we should take OIDC claims as=
 an influencing input to be evaluated in the context of what we=E2=80=99re =
trying to do. =E2=80=9CWe did it this way in OIDC=E2=80=9D is not a suffici=
ent argument for its inclusion in TxAuth, and therefore I agree that it doe=
s not belong anywhere in the charter. But we also need to look at what we d=
id do in OIDC and figure out how and if it fits as we=E2=80=99re figuring o=
ut solutions.</div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:afte=
r-white-space"><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<br><div><br><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 28, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Kim: are you suggesting that s=
upporting OIDC claims be in the charter?<div><br></div><div>While I think t=
hat supporting OIDC claims is desirable, I don&#39;t think that belongs in =
the charter.</div><div><br></div><div>Justin: OIDC claims inherently had to=
 be different from SAML as the syntax was JSON vs XML.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Are you suggesting that a different document format be used than JSON?=
</div><div><br></div><div>What do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><=
/div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_a=
ttr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 3:30 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jr=
icher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi Kim, thanks for the=
 feedback. Answers inline, below.<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><di=
v>On Jan 28, 2020, at 1:57 AM, Kim &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">kim@identityblog.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><di=
v style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text=
-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-h=
eight:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41=
);background-color:white">Dear Justin,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:1=
4.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">The =
current wording of the draft charter raised questions for me that others mi=
ght share. Clarifying these would help those of us not familiar with the wo=
rk to date.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Con=
solas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; This group is charte=
red to develop a delegation protocol for authorization, identity, and API a=
ccess.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color=
:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">Can you please expand on what you me=
an by delegation of identity and whether that leverages claims and tokens a=
s defined in OpenID Connect?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>We would not necessarily be using the exact claims and mechanisms =
in OIDC.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:=
none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background=
-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:=
Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; The use cases sup=
ported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases currently su=
pported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.0) as well=
 as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-hei=
ght:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"=
>I understand and support the motivations to rework the authorization flows=
.=C2=A0 However, the identity representations in OpenID Connect have alread=
y shown themselves to work well in conveying the identity of the end user. =
It seems prudent to avoid the confusion and complexity that would result fr=
om introducing new mechanisms to do the same thing. Will the enhancements t=
o the authorization leverage what already works and has become a unifying t=
echnology?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>And when =
OIDC was invented, SAML had already been shown to work well in conveying th=
e identity of an end user. I believe we can make a similar leap forward her=
e. This is not just a new conveyance mechanism for OIDC, but it will certai=
nly learn from it as OIDC learned from SAML and other things that came befo=
re.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-f=
amily:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;f=
ont-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;te=
xt-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-colo=
r:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Conso=
las;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; This protocol will all=
ow an authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an au=
thorization server=E2=80=A6<span>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-col=
or:white">&gt; The client and AS will involve the authorizing party as nece=
ssary through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.<span>=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;colo=
r:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">What is the authorizing party? Is t=
hat one of the roles in the protocol?=C2=A0 Is it the end user?</span></p><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It=E2=80=99s the OAuth/UMA =E2=
=80=9CResource Owner=E2=80=9D, which might be the user using the client sof=
tware and might be someone else that the AS can contact through other means=
.=C2=A0</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-he=
ight:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white=
"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8=
pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;col=
or:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; Approval of AS attestation to=
 identity claims<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Cons=
olas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">Does this mean that the AS=
 is approving of the claims and conveying that approval to another party (a=
nd what party would that be)?=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div=
>No, the authorizing party is approving the claims and the AS is conveying =
the identity claims and the delegated access token to the client.=C2=A0</di=
v><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-he=
ight:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white=
"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8=
pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb=
(33,37,41);background-color:white">By identity claims are you leveraging cl=
aims as defined in OpenID Connect?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div>Not necessarily, but they=E2=80=99re on the table as items to con=
sider.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;lin=
e-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:w=
hite"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color=
:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">Are the identity claims about the en=
d user =E2=80=93 or other subjects as well?</span></p></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>Generally speaking yes, though in the multi-user ca=
se (CIBA, UMA, and some device-flow use cases today), the claims of the aut=
horizing party are being conveyed to the end user of the client, who might =
be a different party. This is an advanced use case, though, so I see it as =
something we can enable but not likely to be the most common use case, whic=
h is conveying the current user=E2=80=99s claims to a piece of software tha=
t they=E2=80=99re using.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decora=
tion:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:1=
5.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);backg=
round-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-fa=
mily:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; Mechanisms f=
or providing user, software, organization, and other pieces of information =
used in authorization decisions =E2=80=93<span>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15=
.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);backgr=
ound-color:white">Could you elaborate on what information about users would=
 be supplemental to those expressed as claims?=C2=A0 Also, would informatio=
n about software and organization be expressed as claims?<span>=C2=A0</span=
></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How the user logge=
d in today, how the user was proofed when they got the account, the status =
of the client software that was making the request at the time, etc. So yes=
, software and organization could also be represented as claims, though I c=
an also imagine those being in different data structures.=C2=A0</div><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px=
;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-famil=
y:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:1=
5.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);backg=
round-color:white">&gt; Optimization of information and API access beyond i=
dentity through the delegation process<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:1=
4.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">Coul=
d you please explain what is meant by this goal and how it relates to ident=
ity?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>At its core thi=
s isn=E2=80=99t an identity protocol, but a delegation protocol. One of the=
 core things that it can delegate is knowledge of the identity of the user.=
 This is how OIDC is built on top of OAuth 2, and we=E2=80=99re looking at =
repeating that kind of layering but in a more direct way as possible.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:norma=
l;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:r=
gb(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">Kim Cameron<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;=
font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;displ=
ay:inline">--<span>=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;f=
ont-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:=
none;float:none;display:inline">Txauth mailing list</span><br style=3D"font=
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;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;=
text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:non=
e"><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-s=
ize:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whit=
e-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
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ote></div><br></div>-- <br>
Txauth mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
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--000000000000183878059d3650c6
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Thanks Annabelle. Schema has always been difficult in identity. We can get
it more right this time, but I think the right extensibility is important
to enable continual improvement.

Comments inserted ...

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:00 AM Richard Backman, Annabelle <
richanna@amazon.com> wrote:

> OIDC claims got a lot right, but they aren=E2=80=99t perfect. Here are a =
few issues
> with them:
>
>    - The only defined values for gender are male and female.
>
> agreed =E2=80=94 in fairness the awareness is much greater now

>
>    -
>    - The ..._name claims encourage designs that cater to Western naming
>    conventions.
>
> agreed

>
>    -
>    - The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verificatio=
n
>    occurred.
>
> agreed

>
>    -
>    - Poor support for multiple email addresses or phone numbers.
>
> has this been an issue?

>
>    -
>    - No mechanism for specifying a required value for part of a complex
>    claim (e.g., requiring an address in a particular country).
>
> interesting

>
>    -
>    - The picture claim is unnecessarily constrained to be a photo of the
>    end user.
>
> agreed

>
>    -
>    - The semantic difference between a claim about a subject and
>    resources owned by a subject is lost on developers, leading to custom
>    claims that don=E2=80=99t really make sense as claims.
>
> would you elaborate or provide examples?

>
>    -
>
> On Jan 28, 2020, at 8:12 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?
>
>

--000000000000183878059d3650c6
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<div><div dir=3D"auto">Thanks Annabelle. Schema has always been difficult i=
n identity. We can get it more right this time, but I think the right exten=
sibility is important to enable continual improvement.</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Comments inserted ...</div></div><div><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan =
28, 2020 at 9:00 AM Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richan=
na@amazon.com">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">



<div dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">OIDC claims got a lot rig=
ht, but they aren=E2=80=99t perfect. Here are a few=C2=A0</span>issues with=
 them:
<div>
<ul>
<li>The only defined values for gender are male and female.</li></ul></div>=
</div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto">agreed =E2=80=94 in fairness the=
 awareness is much greater now</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul><li></li><li>The ..._name claims encour=
age designs that cater to Western naming conventions.</li></ul></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto">agreed</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul><li></li><li>The ..._verif=
ied claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verification occurred.</li></ul=
></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto">agreed</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul><li></li><li>=
Poor support for multiple email addresses or phone numbers.</li></ul></div>=
</div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto">has this been an issue?</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul><li=
></li><li>No mechanism for specifying a required value for part of a comple=
x claim (e.g., requiring an address in a particular country).</li></ul></di=
v></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto">interesting</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul><li></li><li>=
The picture claim is unnecessarily constrained to be a photo of the end use=
r.</li></ul></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto">agreed</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul><l=
i></li><li>The semantic difference between a claim about a subject and reso=
urces owned by a subject is lost on developers, leading to custom claims th=
at don=E2=80=99t really make sense as claims.</li></ul></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div dir=3D"auto">would you elaborate or provide examples?</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul>=
<li></li></ul></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote type=3D"cite">
On Jan 28, 2020, at 8:12 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">What do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

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I think =E2=80=9Cgetting it more right=E2=80=9D is exactly the goal. =
OIDC=E2=80=99s schema is a much better starting point than SAMLs was, =
but a starting point is not where we stop!

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 28, 2020, at 6:11 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Thanks Annabelle. Schema has always been difficult in identity. We can =
get it more right this time, but I think the right extensibility is =
important to enable continual improvement.
>=20
> Comments inserted ...
>=20
> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:00 AM Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> OIDC claims got a lot right, but they aren=E2=80=99t perfect. Here are =
a few issues with them:
> The only defined values for gender are male and female.
> agreed =E2=80=94 in fairness the awareness is much greater now
> The ..._name claims encourage designs that cater to Western naming =
conventions.
> agreed
> The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verification =
occurred.
> agreed
> Poor support for multiple email addresses or phone numbers.
> has this been an issue?
> No mechanism for specifying a required value for part of a complex =
claim (e.g., requiring an address in a particular country).
> interesting
> The picture claim is unnecessarily constrained to be a photo of the =
end user.
> agreed
> The semantic difference between a claim about a subject and resources =
owned by a subject is lost on developers, leading to custom claims that =
don=E2=80=99t really make sense as claims.
> would you elaborate or provide examples?
>> On Jan 28, 2020, at 8:12 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> What do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?


--Apple-Mail=_8AFE685D-AA1D-41CF-ADDE-AEB5AFA4B427
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
think =E2=80=9Cgetting it more right=E2=80=9D is exactly the goal. =
OIDC=E2=80=99s schema is a much better starting point than SAMLs was, =
but a starting point is not where we stop!<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 28, 2020, at 6:11 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">Thanks =
Annabelle. Schema has always been difficult in identity. We can get it =
more right this time, but I think the right extensibility is important =
to enable continual improvement.</div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">Comments inserted =
...</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan =
28, 2020 at 9:00 AM Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">OIDC claims got =
a lot right, but they aren=E2=80=99t perfect. Here are a =
few&nbsp;</span>issues with them:
<div class=3D"">
<ul class=3D"">
<li class=3D"">The only defined values for gender are male and =
female.</li></ul></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D"">agreed =E2=80=94 in fairness the awareness is much greater =
now</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li =
class=3D""></li><li class=3D"">The ..._name claims encourage designs =
that cater to Western naming =
conventions.</li></ul></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D"">agreed</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li =
class=3D""></li><li class=3D"">The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t =
define how or when verification =
occurred.</li></ul></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D"">agreed</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li =
class=3D""></li><li class=3D"">Poor support for multiple email addresses =
or phone numbers.</li></ul></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">has this been an issue?</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D""></li><li =
class=3D"">No mechanism for specifying a required value for part of a =
complex claim (e.g., requiring an address in a particular =
country).</li></ul></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D"">interesting</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D""></li><li =
class=3D"">The picture claim is unnecessarily constrained to be a photo =
of the end user.</li></ul></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"=
 class=3D"">agreed</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D""></li><li =
class=3D"">The semantic difference between a claim about a subject and =
resources owned by a subject is lost on developers, leading to custom =
claims that don=E2=80=99t really make sense as =
claims.</li></ul></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D"">would you elaborate or provide examples?</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li =
class=3D""></li></ul></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
On Jan 28, 2020, at 8:12 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">What do you see as lacking in the OIDC =
claims?</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Matthew De Haast <matt@coil.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 20:58:26 +0200
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Cc: txauth@ietf.org, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] XAuth - a revision of TxAuth
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Hi Dick,

Can you clarify the relation between this and the TxAuth Charter. Are you
proposing not to charter TXAuth and rather propose xauth as an
extension of Oauth2? Is it an and/or scenario or do you see this being
worked on in conjunction with TxAuth?

Matt

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 12:05 AM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello!
>
> I riffed on Justin's draft and have created an alternative that has the
> same core concept of secure communication of all parameters between the
> Client and the AS.
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00
>
> A goal of this document was to be as self contained as possible.
> Everything needed to implement is included if an implementor is are
> already familiar with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, and wants to migrate to
> XAuth.
>
> To meet that goal, JOSE was chosen as the default mechanism for the Client
> to authenticate to the AS, and to perform PoP access to a resource. The
> JOSE specific aspects are in one section, so that an extension can easily
> specify other Client authentication mechanisms.
>
> There are likely numerous editorial and syntactical errors, and as we all
> know -- naming is hard -- so feel free to suggest better names.
>
> There are lots of issues with normative language, many of which I am not
> aware of yet!
>
> I've revised the document a number of times, and may have old terms
> dangling around. Please let me know if there is something confusing, or
> contradictory!
>
> /Dick
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Dick,<div><br></div><div>Can you clari=
fy the relation between this and the TxAuth Charter. Are you proposing not =
to charter TXAuth and rather propose xauth as an extension=C2=A0of=C2=A0Oau=
th2? Is it an and/or scenario or do you see this being worked on in conjunc=
tion with TxAuth?</div><div><br></div><div>Matt</div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020=
 at 12:05 AM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hello!<d=
iv><br><div>I riffed on Justin&#39;s draft and have created an alternative =
that has the same core concept of secure communication of all parameters be=
tween the Client and the AS.</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00" target=3D"_blank">https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00</a><br></div><div><br></d=
iv><div>A goal of this document was to be as self contained as possible.</d=
iv><div>Everything needed to implement is included if an implementor is are=
 already familiar with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, and wants to migrate to=
 XAuth.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>To meet that goal, JOSE was chosen a=
s the default mechanism for the Client to authenticate to the AS, and to pe=
rform PoP access to a resource. The JOSE specific aspects are in one sectio=
n, so that an extension can easily specify other Client authentication mech=
anisms.</div><div><br></div><div>There are likely numerous editorial and sy=
ntactical errors, and as we all know -- naming is hard -- so feel free to s=
uggest better names.</div><div><br></div><div>There are lots of issues with=
 normative language, many of which I am not aware of yet!</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>I&#39;ve revised the document a number of times, and may have old t=
erms dangling around. Please let=C2=A0me know if there is something confusi=
ng, or contradictory!</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></=
div></div></div>
-- <br>
Txauth mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:01:44 -0800
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To: Matthew De Haast <matt@coil.com>
Cc: txauth@ietf.org, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] XAuth - a revision of TxAuth
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I intended XAuth to meet the TxAuth Charter.

The sequence is pretty much the same as the TxAuth ID that Justin proposed.

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 10:58 AM Matthew De Haast <matt@coil.com> wrote:

> Hi Dick,
>
> Can you clarify the relation between this and the TxAuth Charter. Are you
> proposing not to charter TXAuth and rather propose xauth as an
> extension of Oauth2? Is it an and/or scenario or do you see this being
> worked on in conjunction with TxAuth?
>
> Matt
>
> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 12:05 AM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello!
>>
>> I riffed on Justin's draft and have created an alternative that has the
>> same core concept of secure communication of all parameters between the
>> Client and the AS.
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00
>>
>> A goal of this document was to be as self contained as possible.
>> Everything needed to implement is included if an implementor is are
>> already familiar with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, and wants to migrate to
>> XAuth.
>>
>> To meet that goal, JOSE was chosen as the default mechanism for the
>> Client to authenticate to the AS, and to perform PoP access to a resource.
>> The JOSE specific aspects are in one section, so that an extension can
>> easily specify other Client authentication mechanisms.
>>
>> There are likely numerous editorial and syntactical errors, and as we all
>> know -- naming is hard -- so feel free to suggest better names.
>>
>> There are lots of issues with normative language, many of which I am not
>> aware of yet!
>>
>> I've revised the document a number of times, and may have old terms
>> dangling around. Please let me know if there is something confusing, or
>> contradictory!
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I intended XAuth to meet the TxAuth Charter.<div><br></div=
><div>The sequence is pretty much the same as the TxAuth ID that Justin pro=
posed.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 10:58 AM Matthew De Haast &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matt@coil.com">matt@coil.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi=
 Dick,<div><br></div><div>Can you clarify the relation between this and the=
 TxAuth Charter. Are you proposing not to charter TXAuth and rather propose=
 xauth as an extension=C2=A0of=C2=A0Oauth2? Is it an and/or scenario or do =
you see this being worked on in conjunction with TxAuth?</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Matt</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas=
s=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 12:05 AM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hello!<div><br><div>I riffed on Justin&#39;s dra=
ft and have created an alternative that has the same core concept of secure=
 communication of all parameters between the Client and the AS.</div><div><=
br></div><div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-prot=
ocol-00" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-pr=
otocol-00</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>A goal of this document was to b=
e as self contained as possible.</div><div>Everything needed to implement i=
s included if an implementor is are already familiar with OAuth 2.0 or Open=
ID Connect, and wants to migrate to XAuth.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>T=
o meet that goal, JOSE was chosen as the default mechanism for the Client t=
o authenticate to the AS, and to perform PoP access to a resource. The JOSE=
 specific aspects are in one section, so that an extension can easily speci=
fy other Client authentication mechanisms.</div><div><br></div><div>There a=
re likely numerous editorial and syntactical errors, and as we all know -- =
naming is hard -- so feel free to suggest better names.</div><div><br></div=
><div>There are lots of issues with normative language, many of which I am =
not aware of yet!</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve revised the document a =
number of times, and may have old terms dangling around. Please let=C2=A0me=
 know if there is something confusing, or contradictory!</div><div><br></di=
v><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>
-- <br>
Txauth mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000880220059d37db27--


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 12:35:24 -0800
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter
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On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:47 AM Richard Backman, Annabelle <
richanna@amazon.com> wrote:

> Regarding multiple email addresses or phone numbers (or addresses, which =
I
> left out in my earlier email), there are cases where people are asked to
> provide multiple phone numbers or email addresses (e.g., patient intake
> forms). With OIDC, you=E2=80=99d have to define separate claims (e.g.,
> mobile_phone, office_phone) and of course it=E2=80=99s not clear how just=
 plain
> =E2=80=9Cphone_number=E2=80=9D would fit in with that. Even if all the cl=
ient wants is one
> value, it can be helpful to know which one (e.g., a mobile app needs a
> mobile phone number, not a landline; a digital music store needs a billin=
g
> address, but not a shipping address).
>

I've viewed the value of unverified claims is making it easier for a user
form fill at Client. There will often be additional information the Client
needs that is fairly Client specific.
I worry about the extra complexity that supporting multiple
email/phone/address would add to the developer of the AS and the Client, as
well as the extra UX for a User to understand at an AS, for an infrequent
use case. Additionally, in the consumer space, most OIDC providers usually
only have one email or phone.


>
>
> Regarding claims vs. resources, I=E2=80=99ve seen developers want to use =
claims as
> a bucket for including data related to scopes in authentication requests,
> when what they really needed was RAR or something like it. For Login with
> Amazon, we added a proprietary =E2=80=9Cscope_data=E2=80=9D parameter (si=
nce RAR didn=E2=80=99t
> exist at the time).
>

Sorry, I still don't understand this use case.


> On the reverse end, I=E2=80=99ve seen developers want to add various reso=
urces as
> claims in order to optimize the client experience.
>

For example? Is what you are describing what is below?


> Why should we make the client do another round trip if we already know
> what they will ask for and what we=E2=80=99ll return? This comes up parti=
cularly in
> situations where the end user is authorizing a specific operation (e.g., =
a
> single payment, retrieval of a specific image/document).
>

Is this covered by RAR?



>
>
> =E2=80=93
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> AWS Identity
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 9:12 AM
> *To: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc: *Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, "
> txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter
>
>
>
> Thanks Annabelle. Schema has always been difficult in identity. We can ge=
t
> it more right this time, but I think the right extensibility is important
> to enable continual improvement.
>
>
>
> Comments inserted ...
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:00 AM Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> OIDC claims got a lot right, but they aren=E2=80=99t perfect. Here are a =
few issues
> with them:
>
>    - The only defined values for gender are male and female.
>
> agreed =E2=80=94 in fairness the awareness is much greater now
>
>
>    -
>    - The ..._name claims encourage designs that cater to Western naming
>    conventions.
>
> agreed
>
>
>    -
>    - The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verificatio=
n
>    occurred.
>
> agreed
>
>
>    -
>    - Poor support for multiple email addresses or phone numbers.
>
> has this been an issue?
>
>
>    -
>    - No mechanism for specifying a required value for part of a complex
>    claim (e.g., requiring an address in a particular country).
>
> interesting
>
>
>    -
>    - The picture claim is unnecessarily constrained to be a photo of the
>    end user.
>
> agreed
>
>
>    -
>    - The semantic difference between a claim about a subject and
>    resources owned by a subject is lost on developers, leading to custom
>    claims that don=E2=80=99t really make sense as claims.
>
> would you elaborate or provide examples?
>
>
>    -
>
> On Jan 28, 2020, at 8:12 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?
>
> =E1=90=A7

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:47 AM Rich=
ard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D=
"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regarding multiple email addresses or phone numbers =
(or addresses, which I left out in my earlier email), there are cases where=
 people are asked to provide multiple phone numbers or email addresses (e.g=
., patient intake forms). With OIDC,
 you=E2=80=99d have to define separate claims (e.g., mobile_phone, office_p=
hone) and of course it=E2=80=99s not clear how just plain =E2=80=9Cphone_nu=
mber=E2=80=9D would fit in with that. Even if all the client wants is one v=
alue, it can be helpful to know which one (e.g., a mobile app needs
 a mobile phone number, not a landline; a digital music store needs a billi=
ng address, but not a shipping address).</p></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>I&#39;ve viewed the value of unverified claims is making it e=
asier for a user form fill at Client. There will often be additional inform=
ation the Client needs that is fairly Client specific.=C2=A0</div><div>I wo=
rry about the extra complexity that supporting multiple email/phone/address=
 would add to the developer of the AS and the Client, as well as the extra =
UX for a User to understand at an AS, for an infrequent use case. Additiona=
lly, in the consumer space, most OIDC providers usually only have one email=
 or phone.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regarding claims vs. resources, I=E2=80=99ve seen de=
velopers want to use claims as a bucket for including data related to scope=
s in authentication requests, when what they really needed was RAR or somet=
hing like it. For Login with Amazon, we added
 a proprietary =E2=80=9Cscope_data=E2=80=9D parameter (since RAR didn=E2=80=
=99t exist at the time). </p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>S=
orry, I still don&#39;t understand this use case.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">On the reverse end, I=E2=80=99ve seen developers want t=
o add various resources as claims in order to optimize the client experienc=
e. </p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>For example? Is what yo=
u are describing what is below?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">Why should we make the client do another round trip if we
 already know what they will ask for and what we=E2=80=99ll return? This co=
mes up particularly in situations where the end user is authorizing a speci=
fic operation (e.g., a single payment, retrieval of a specific image/docume=
nt).</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Is this covered by RAR=
?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=93<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Annabelle Richard Bac=
kman<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">AWS Identity<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: =
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Dick Hardt &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 9:12 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ric=
hanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_=
blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Kim &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.=
com" target=3D"_blank">kim@identityblog.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks Annabelle. Schema has always been difficult i=
n identity. We can get it more right this time, but I think the right exten=
sibility is important to enable continual improvement.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comments inserted ...<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:00 AM Richard Backman, Ann=
abelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richann=
a@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">OIDC claims got a lot ri=
ght, but they aren=E2=80=99t perfect. Here are a few=C2=A0</span>issues wit=
h them:
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
The only defined values for gender are male and female.<u></u><u></u></li><=
/ul>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">agreed =E2=80=94 in fairness the awareness is much g=
reater now<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
The ..._name claims encourage designs that cater to Western naming conventi=
ons.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">agreed<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verification occur=
red.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">agreed<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Poor support for multiple email addresses or phone numbers.<u></u><u></u></=
li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">has this been an issue?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
No mechanism for specifying a required value for part of a complex claim (e=
.g., requiring an address in a particular country).<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">interesting<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
The picture claim is unnecessarily constrained to be a photo of the end use=
r.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">agreed<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
The semantic difference between a claim about a subject and resources owned=
 by a subject is lost on developers, leading to custom claims that don=E2=
=80=99t really make sense as claims.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">would you elaborate or provide examples?<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">On Jan 28, 2020, at 8:1=
2 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height=
:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" src=
=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%=
3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D553cd792-5b6d-4d55-9656-f3041fa4d91a">=
<font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7</font></div>

--000000000000883811059d392ab5--


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I would not go so far as to call it =E2=80=9Cpretty much the same=E2=80=9D=
 as there are a number of key differences.=20

But that said, while I disagree with a lot of the details of Dick=E2=80=99=
s proposal, I think it=E2=80=99s worthy input to what the group decides =
to work on.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 28, 2020, at 8:01 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> I intended XAuth to meet the TxAuth Charter.
>=20
> The sequence is pretty much the same as the TxAuth ID that Justin =
proposed.
>=20
> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 10:58 AM Matthew De Haast <matt@coil.com =
<mailto:matt@coil.com>> wrote:
> Hi Dick,
>=20
> Can you clarify the relation between this and the TxAuth Charter. Are =
you proposing not to charter TXAuth and rather propose xauth as an =
extension of Oauth2? Is it an and/or scenario or do you see this being =
worked on in conjunction with TxAuth?
>=20
> Matt
>=20
> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 12:05 AM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hello!
>=20
> I riffed on Justin's draft and have created an alternative that has =
the same core concept of secure communication of all parameters between =
the Client and the AS.
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00>
>=20
> A goal of this document was to be as self contained as possible.
> Everything needed to implement is included if an implementor is are =
already familiar with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, and wants to migrate =
to XAuth.=20
>=20
> To meet that goal, JOSE was chosen as the default mechanism for the =
Client to authenticate to the AS, and to perform PoP access to a =
resource. The JOSE specific aspects are in one section, so that an =
extension can easily specify other Client authentication mechanisms.
>=20
> There are likely numerous editorial and syntactical errors, and as we =
all know -- naming is hard -- so feel free to suggest better names.
>=20
> There are lots of issues with normative language, many of which I am =
not aware of yet!
>=20
> I've revised the document a number of times, and may have old terms =
dangling around. Please let me know if there is something confusing, or =
contradictory!
>=20
> /Dick
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
would not go so far as to call it =E2=80=9Cpretty much the same=E2=80=9D =
as there are a number of key differences.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But that said, while I disagree with a =
lot of the details of Dick=E2=80=99s proposal, I think it=E2=80=99s =
worthy input to what the group decides to work on.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 =
Justin<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 28, 2020, at 8:01 PM, Dick Hardt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I intended XAuth to meet the =
TxAuth Charter.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
sequence is pretty much the same as the TxAuth ID that Justin =
proposed.</div></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 10:58 AM =
Matthew De Haast &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matt@coil.com" =
class=3D"">matt@coil.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hi Dick,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Can you clarify the relation between this and the TxAuth =
Charter. Are you proposing not to charter TXAuth and rather propose =
xauth as an extension&nbsp;of&nbsp;Oauth2? Is it an and/or scenario or =
do you see this being worked on in conjunction with TxAuth?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Matt</div></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 12:05 AM Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hello!<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I riffed on Justin's draft and have created an alternative =
that has the same core concept of secure communication of all parameters =
between the Client and the AS.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00</a><b=
r class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A =
goal of this document was to be as self contained as possible.</div><div =
class=3D"">Everything needed to implement is included if an implementor =
is are already familiar with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, and wants to =
migrate to XAuth.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">To meet that goal, JOSE was chosen as the default mechanism =
for the Client to authenticate to the AS, and to perform PoP access to a =
resource. The JOSE specific aspects are in one section, so that an =
extension can easily specify other Client authentication =
mechanisms.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There are likely numerous editorial and syntactical errors, =
and as we all know -- naming is hard -- so feel free to suggest better =
names.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There =
are lots of issues with normative language, many of which I am not aware =
of yet!</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I've =
revised the document a number of times, and may have old terms dangling =
around. Please let&nbsp;me know if there is something confusing, or =
contradictory!</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">/Dick</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div></div>
-- <br class=3D"">
Txauth mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br class=3D"">=

</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 00:13:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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Hi!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: TxAuth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf of Justin Richer
> Sent: Sat, 18 January 2020 14:15 UTCShow
> To: IETF TxAuth <txauth@ietf.org>
> Subject: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
>=20

[snip]
> I would really appreciate the security AD's weighing in at this stage. Th=
anks
> again everyone!

The Sec ADs have reviewed the charter (as of v3.5) and at a high level beli=
eve the scope could use a bit more precision.  If there was no prior work, =
the situation would be different.  However, in this case, relationships wit=
h the existing OAuth WG needs to be navigated.  Topics that require discuss=
ion and clarity include:

** is TxAuth intended to solve all existing OAuth use cases (i.e., is TxAut=
h is a superset of OAuth) in a new, non-backward compatible way?  If not al=
l, which would not be addressed?
** what new use cases would TxAuth address (that aren't in scope for OAuth)=
?
** given a new use case requirement for delegated authorization/identity, w=
hat would be the decision process to decide to which WG or WGs it would go?
** notional milestones (not the dates, but the deliverables)

In the details of the text:

(1) Distinguish what's new (instance #1):
OLD:
This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for authorization,=
 identity, and API access.

NEW:
This group is chartered to develop a fine-grained delegation protocol for a=
uthorization, identity, and API access.

(2) Distinguish what's new (instance #2):
OLD:
The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use c=
ases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension of O=
Auth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.

NEW:
It will expand upon the uses cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and Ope=
nID Connect (itself an extension of OAuth 2.0) to support authorizations sc=
oped as narrowly as a single transaction, provide a clear framework for int=
eraction among all parties involved in the protocol flow, and remove unnece=
ssary dependence on a browser or user-agent for coordinating interactions.

(3) Style Nit:
OLD:
Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types of clien=
t applications

NEW:=20
A variety of client applications, including Web, mobile, single-page, and i=
nteraction-constrained applications

(4) Per "Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings", perhaps it might =
be clearer to say "Mechanisms for presenting tokens to resource servers and=
 binding resource requests to cryptographic keys"

(5) Per "Mechanisms for providing user, software ...", perhaps it might be =
clearer to say "Mechanism for conveying user, software ..."

(6) Per "Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through=
 the delegation process", is this suggesting the need for optimizing access=
 to TxAuth information for use cases beyond identity? Or the inclusion of i=
nformation that isn't identity information into the delegation process? =20

(7) Refine the protocol focus:
OLD:
While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between t=
he client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to take=
 advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and =
will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.

NEW:
The initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between the cli=
ent and the authorization server, taking advantage of optimization features=
 of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and will strive to enable simple mappin=
g to other protocols such as COAP when doing so does not conflict with the =
primary focus.

Regards,
Roman and Ben


From nobody Tue Jan 28 17:13:30 2020
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:13:11 -0800
Message-ID: <CAD9ie-tb8V9vHNUxeHiyTV805Q6OwgKmb260wn9CyzeZxyWFJw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/G7t0Kmjp1gFc--qCowW5uIfBfTg>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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--000000000000fddb4c059d3d0b37
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 I'll take a stab at answering your questions:

The Sec ADs have reviewed the charter (as of v3.5) and at a high level
> believe the scope could use a bit more precision.  If there was no prior
> work, the situation would be different.  However, in this case,
> relationships with the existing OAuth WG needs to be navigated.  Topics
> that require discussion and clarity include:
> ** is TxAuth intended to solve all existing OAuth use cases (i.e., is
> TxAuth is a superset of OAuth) in a new, non-backward compatible way?
>

Yes. See below for non-backward compatibility.


> ** what new use cases would TxAuth address (that aren't in scope for
> OAuth)?
>

All identity claim use cases. A set of these are solved by OpenID Connect,
which is an extension to OAuth 2.0. TxAuth would also be a superset of
OpenID Connect in addition to OAuth.


> ** given a new use case requirement for delegated authorization/identity,
> what would be the decision process to decide to which WG or WGs it would go?


Identity claim use cases would be in the TxAuth WG, as identity claims are
not in the latest OAuth WG charter.

Some new authorization use cases will be applicable to both, where there is
a desire for the use case to be supported by both protocols. In situations
where the same document can be used by both OAuth and TxAuth such as the
Rich Authorization Request work, I would suggest it be done in the OAuth WG.

Other use cases will require different mechanisms, as the protocols are
different, and work will happen in both.

*How are OAuth 2.0 and TxAuth different?*

OAuth 2.0 uses browser redirects, and query parameters for the Client and
Authorization Server to communicate initially, and then the Client makes a
form encoded POST to the Authorization Server.

Extensions to OAuth 2.0 have added additional parameters, but have been
limited by what can be added to a URL redirect, and the name / value pair
constraints of a form encoded POST.

In contrast, TxAuth uses JSON to encode messages between the Client and the
Authorization Server, and the Client starts the the protocol sending a rich
JSON message to the Authorization Server. TxAuth is a new protocol.

Just as OAuth 2.0 was incompatible with OAuth 1.0, TxAuth is incompatible
with OAuth 2.0. If the work was done in the OAuth WG, it would likely be
called OAuth 3.0. To do that, the OAuth WG Charter would need to be
updated, as identity claims are not in scope. Excerpts from the OAuth WG
Charter https://tools.ietf.org/wg/oauth/charters

  The Web Authorization (OAuth) protocol allows a user to grant a
  third-party web site or application access to the user's protected
  resources, without necessarily revealing their long-term credentials,
  or even their identity.

<snip>

  The ongoing standardization efforts within the OAuth working group
  focus on increasing interoperability of OAuth deployments and to
  improve security.




On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:13 PM Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TxAuth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf of Justin Richer
> > Sent: Sat, 18 January 2020 14:15 UTCShow
> > To: IETF TxAuth <txauth@ietf.org>
> > Subject: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
> >
>
> [snip]
> > I would really appreciate the security AD's weighing in at this stage.
> Thanks
> > again everyone!
>
> The Sec ADs have reviewed the charter (as of v3.5) and at a high level
> believe the scope could use a bit more precision.  If there was no prior
> work, the situation would be different.  However, in this case,
> relationships with the existing OAuth WG needs to be navigated.  Topics
> that require discussion and clarity include:
>
> ** is TxAuth intended to solve all existing OAuth use cases (i.e., is
> TxAuth is a superset of OAuth) in a new, non-backward compatible way?  If
> not all, which would not be addressed?
> ** what new use cases would TxAuth address (that aren't in scope for
> OAuth)?
> ** given a new use case requirement for delegated authorization/identity,
> what would be the decision process to decide to which WG or WGs it would go?
> ** notional milestones (not the dates, but the deliverables)
>
> In the details of the text:
>
> (1) Distinguish what's new (instance #1):
> OLD:
> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for
> authorization, identity, and API access.
>
> NEW:
> This group is chartered to develop a fine-grained delegation protocol for
> authorization, identity, and API access.
>
> (2) Distinguish what's new (instance #2):
> OLD:
> The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use
> cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension of
> OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.
>
> NEW:
> It will expand upon the uses cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and
> OpenID Connect (itself an extension of OAuth 2.0) to support authorizations
> scoped as narrowly as a single transaction, provide a clear framework for
> interaction among all parties involved in the protocol flow, and remove
> unnecessary dependence on a browser or user-agent for coordinating
> interactions.
>
> (3) Style Nit:
> OLD:
> Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types of
> client applications
>
> NEW:
> A variety of client applications, including Web, mobile, single-page, and
> interaction-constrained applications
>
> (4) Per "Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings", perhaps it might
> be clearer to say "Mechanisms for presenting tokens to resource servers and
> binding resource requests to cryptographic keys"
>
> (5) Per "Mechanisms for providing user, software ...", perhaps it might be
> clearer to say "Mechanism for conveying user, software ..."
>
> (6) Per "Optimization of information and API access beyond identity
> through the delegation process", is this suggesting the need for optimizing
> access to TxAuth information for use cases beyond identity? Or the
> inclusion of information that isn't identity information into the
> delegation process?
>
> (7) Refine the protocol focus:
> OLD:
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between
> the client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to
> take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible,
> and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.
>
> NEW:
> The initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between the
> client and the authorization server, taking advantage of optimization
> features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and will strive to enable
> simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP when doing so does not
> conflict with the primary focus.
>
> Regards,
> Roman and Ben
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

--000000000000fddb4c059d3d0b37
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0I&#39;ll take a stab at answering you=
r=C2=A0questions:</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex">The Sec ADs have reviewed the charter (as of v3.5) and at a hi=
gh level believe the scope could use a bit more precision.=C2=A0 If there w=
as no prior work, the situation would be different.=C2=A0 However, in this =
case, relationships with the existing OAuth WG needs to be navigated.=C2=A0=
 Topics that require discussion and clarity include:<br>** is TxAuth intend=
ed to solve all existing OAuth use cases (i.e., is TxAuth is a superset of =
OAuth) in a new, non-backward compatible way?=C2=A0<br></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>Yes. See below for non-backward compatibility.</div><div>=C2=
=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">** what new =
use cases would TxAuth address (that aren&#39;t in scope for OAuth)?<br></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>All identity claim use cases. A set of these =
are solved by OpenID Connect, which is an extension to OAuth 2.0. TxAuth wo=
uld also be a superset of OpenID Connect in addition to OAuth.</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">** given a ne=
w use case requirement for delegated authorization/identity, what would be =
the decision process to decide to which WG or WGs it would go?</blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div><div>Identity claim use cases would be in the TxAuth WG=
, as identity claims are not in the latest OAuth WG charter.</div><div></di=
v></div><div><br></div><div>Some new authorization use cases will be applic=
able to both, where there is a desire for the use case to be supported by b=
oth protocols. In situations where the same document can be used by both OA=
uth and TxAuth such as the Rich Authorization Request work, I would suggest=
 it be done in the OAuth WG.</div><div><br></div><div>Other use cases will =
require different mechanisms, as the protocols are different, and work will=
 happen in both.</div><div><br></div><div><b>How are OAuth 2.0 and TxAuth d=
ifferent?</b></div><div><br></div></div><div>OAuth 2.0 uses browser redirec=
ts, and query parameters for the Client and Authorization Server to communi=
cate initially, and then the Client makes a form encoded POST to the Author=
ization Server.</div><div><br></div><div>Extensions to OAuth 2.0 have added=
 additional parameters, but have been limited by what can be added to a URL=
 redirect, and the name / value pair constraints of a form encoded POST.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>In contrast, TxAuth uses JSON to encode messages bet=
ween the Client and the Authorization Server, and the Client starts the the=
 protocol sending a rich JSON message to the Authorization Server. TxAuth i=
s a new protocol.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Just as OAuth 2.0 was inco=
mpatible with OAuth 1.0, TxAuth is incompatible with OAuth 2.0. If the work=
 was done in the OAuth WG, it would likely be called OAuth 3.0. To do that,=
 the OAuth WG Charter would need to be updated, as identity claims are not =
in scope. Excerpts from the OAuth WG Charter=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.=
ietf.org/wg/oauth/charters">https://tools.ietf.org/wg/oauth/charters</a>=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12px"=
>  The Web Authorization (OAuth) protocol allows a user to grant a
  third-party web site or application access to the user&#39;s protected
  resources, without necessarily revealing their long-term credentials,
  or even their identity. </pre><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12=
px">&lt;snip&gt;</pre><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12px"><pre> =
 The ongoing standardization efforts within the OAuth working group
  focus on increasing interoperability of OAuth deployments and to
  improve security.</pre></pre></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On =
Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:13 PM Roman Danyliw &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.o=
rg">rdd@cert.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">Hi!<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: TxAuth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf of Justin Richer<br>
&gt; Sent: Sat, 18 January 2020 14:15 UTCShow<br>
&gt; To: IETF TxAuth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
[snip]<br>
&gt; I would really appreciate the security AD&#39;s weighing in at this st=
age. Thanks<br>
&gt; again everyone!<br>
<br>
The Sec ADs have reviewed the charter (as of v3.5) and at a high level beli=
eve the scope could use a bit more precision.=C2=A0 If there was no prior w=
ork, the situation would be different.=C2=A0 However, in this case, relatio=
nships with the existing OAuth WG needs to be navigated.=C2=A0 Topics that =
require discussion and clarity include:<br>
<br>
** is TxAuth intended to solve all existing OAuth use cases (i.e., is TxAut=
h is a superset of OAuth) in a new, non-backward compatible way?=C2=A0 If n=
ot all, which would not be addressed?<br>
** what new use cases would TxAuth address (that aren&#39;t in scope for OA=
uth)?<br>
** given a new use case requirement for delegated authorization/identity, w=
hat would be the decision process to decide to which WG or WGs it would go?=
<br>
** notional milestones (not the dates, but the deliverables)<br>
<br>
In the details of the text:<br>
<br>
(1) Distinguish what&#39;s new (instance #1):<br>
OLD:<br>
This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for authorization,=
 identity, and API access.<br>
<br>
NEW:<br>
This group is chartered to develop a fine-grained delegation protocol for a=
uthorization, identity, and API access.<br>
<br>
(2) Distinguish what&#39;s new (instance #2):<br>
OLD:<br>
The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use c=
ases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension of O=
Auth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.<br>
<br>
NEW:<br>
It will expand upon the uses cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and Ope=
nID Connect (itself an extension of OAuth 2.0) to support authorizations sc=
oped as narrowly as a single transaction, provide a clear framework for int=
eraction among all parties involved in the protocol flow, and remove unnece=
ssary dependence on a browser or user-agent for coordinating interactions.<=
br>
<br>
(3) Style Nit:<br>
OLD:<br>
Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types of clien=
t applications<br>
<br>
NEW: <br>
A variety of client applications, including Web, mobile, single-page, and i=
nteraction-constrained applications<br>
<br>
(4) Per &quot;Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings&quot;, perhaps=
 it might be clearer to say &quot;Mechanisms for presenting tokens to resou=
rce servers and binding resource requests to cryptographic keys&quot;<br>
<br>
(5) Per &quot;Mechanisms for providing user, software ...&quot;, perhaps it=
 might be clearer to say &quot;Mechanism for conveying user, software ...&q=
uot;<br>
<br>
(6) Per &quot;Optimization of information and API access beyond identity th=
rough the delegation process&quot;, is this suggesting the need for optimiz=
ing access to TxAuth information for use cases beyond identity? Or the incl=
usion of information that isn&#39;t identity information into the delegatio=
n process?=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
(7) Refine the protocol focus:<br>
OLD:<br>
While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between t=
he client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to take=
 advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and =
will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<br>
<br>
NEW:<br>
The initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between the cli=
ent and the authorization server, taking advantage of optimization features=
 of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and will strive to enable simple mappin=
g to other protocols such as COAP when doing so does not conflict with the =
primary focus.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Roman and Ben<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Txauth mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div>

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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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> Am 29.01.2020 um 02:13 schrieb Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>:
>=20
> All identity claim use cases. A set of these are solved by OpenID Connect,=
 which is an extension to OAuth 2.0. TxAuth would also be a superset of Open=
ID Connect in addition to OAuth.

Don=E2=80=99t you think this would make TxAuth a bit complicated? What would=
 be the benefit?=

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> Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=3D40am=
azon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>:
>=20
> The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verification occu=
rred.

Sure, they do. Look at the time and method fields.=20

Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka verified_claims) is ongoing=
 work feel free to contribute.

https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backma=
n, Annabelle &lt;richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;:<br><br></blockq=
uote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">The ..._verified claim=
s don=E2=80=99t define how or when verification occurred.</div></blockquote>=
<br><div>Sure, they do. Look at the time and method fields.&nbsp;</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka verified_cla=
ims) is ongoing work feel free to contribute.</div><div><br></div><div><a hr=
ef=3D"https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/">https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/</a></=
div></body></html>=

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> Am 28.01.2020 um 18:05 schrieb Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> Agreed.
>=20
> Not having subject be a globally unique identifier, nor defining a concate=
nation mechanism  has been a developer issue.

Do you really think that is the reason people use email addresses?

BTW: I have even seen OPs using phone numbers (or hashes thereof) as sub val=
ues. I think that=E2=80=99s an issue with knowledge/education.
>=20
>> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:57 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>> The claims in OIDC aren=E2=80=99t just JSON, many of them are JWT payload=
 elements, which need to be compact so that it could fit better into browser=
 redirects and places like that. I contend that we are not bound by the same=
 restrictions, so just like with the SAML translations of =E2=80=9C<saml:Iss=
uer>=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D we should consider what we really nee=
d in the new space even if it=E2=80=99s the same concepts translated over.
>>=20
>> We=E2=80=99d be foolish to ignore them, but also nearly as foolish to tak=
e them just because they exist and it=E2=80=99s the world we know. For insta=
nce, we know that the OIDC separation of issuer and subject into a pair of v=
alues is really confusing to developers and leads to people using email addr=
ess, username, or other incorrect fields as a universal identifier. There ar=
e some things that we got right, though, such as the flat namespace-less JSO=
N data model that allows domain extensions.
>>=20
>> So just as with anything else in this proposed new work, I am arguing tha=
t we should take OIDC claims as an influencing input to be evaluated in the c=
ontext of what we=E2=80=99re trying to do. =E2=80=9CWe did it this way in OI=
DC=E2=80=9D is not a sufficient argument for its inclusion in TxAuth, and th=
erefore I agree that it does not belong anywhere in the charter. But we also=
 need to look at what we did do in OIDC and figure out how and if it fits as=
 we=E2=80=99re figuring out solutions.
>>=20
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>> On Jan 28, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Kim: are you suggesting that supporting OIDC claims be in the charter?
>>>=20
>>> While I think that supporting OIDC claims is desirable, I don't think th=
at belongs in the charter.
>>>=20
>>> Justin: OIDC claims inherently had to be different from SAML as the synt=
ax was JSON vs XML.
>>>=20
>>> Are you suggesting that a different document format be used than JSON?
>>>=20
>>> What do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 3:30 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>> Hi Kim, thanks for the feedback. Answers inline, below.
>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Jan 28, 2020, at 1:57 AM, Kim <kim@identityblog.com> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Dear Justin,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The current wording of the draft charter raised questions for me that=
 others might share. Clarifying these would help those of us not familiar wi=
th the work to date.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> > This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for author=
ization, identity, and API access.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Can you please expand on what you mean by delegation of identity and w=
hether that leverages claims and tokens as defined in OpenID Connect?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We would not necessarily be using the exact claims and mechanisms in O=
IDC.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> > The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deploye=
d use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extensio=
n of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I understand and support the motivations to rework the authorization f=
lows..  However, the identity representations in OpenID Connect have already=
 shown themselves to work well in conveying the identity of the end user. It=
 seems prudent to avoid the confusion and complexity that would result from i=
ntroducing new mechanisms to do the same thing. Will the enhancements to the=
 authorization leverage what already works and has become a unifying technol=
ogy?
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> And when OIDC was invented, SAML had already been shown to work well in=
 conveying the identity of an end user. I believe we can make a similar leap=
 forward here. This is not just a new conveyance mechanism for OIDC, but it w=
ill certainly learn from it as OIDC learned from SAML and other things that c=
ame before.
>>>>=20
>>>>> > This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access to c=
lient software through an authorization server=E2=80=A6=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> > The client and AS will involve the authorizing party as necessary th=
rough interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> What is the authorizing party? Is that one of the roles in the protoco=
l?  Is it the end user?
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> It=E2=80=99s the OAuth/UMA =E2=80=9CResource Owner=E2=80=9D, which migh=
t be the user using the client software and might be someone else that the A=
S can contact through other means..=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> > Approval of AS attestation to identity claims
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Does this mean that the AS is approving of the claims and conveying th=
at approval to another party (and what party would that be)?=20
>>>>>=20
>>>> No, the authorizing party is approving the claims and the AS is conveyi=
ng the identity claims and the delegated access token to the client.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> By identity claims are you leveraging claims as defined in OpenID Conn=
ect?
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Not necessarily, but they=E2=80=99re on the table as items to consider.=

>>>>=20
>>>>> Are the identity claims about the end user =E2=80=93 or other subjects=
 as well?
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Generally speaking yes, though in the multi-user case (CIBA, UMA, and s=
ome device-flow use cases today), the claims of the authorizing party are be=
ing conveyed to the end user of the client, who might be a different party. T=
his is an advanced use case, though, so I see it as something we can enable b=
ut not likely to be the most common use case, which is conveying the current=
 user=E2=80=99s claims to a piece of software that they=E2=80=99re using.
>>>>=20
>>>>> > Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other pie=
ces of information used in authorization decisions =E2=80=93=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Could you elaborate on what information about users would be supplemen=
tal to those expressed as claims?  Also, would information about software an=
d organization be expressed as claims?=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> How the user logged in today, how the user was proofed when they got th=
e account, the status of the client software that was making the request at t=
he time, etc. So yes, software and organization could also be represented as=
 claims, though I can also imagine those being in different data structures.=
=20
>>>>> > Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through t=
he delegation process
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Could you please explain what is meant by this goal and how it relates=
 to identity?
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> At its core this isn=E2=80=99t an identity protocol, but a delegation p=
rotocol. One of the core things that it can delegate is knowledge of the ide=
ntity of the user. This is how OIDC is built on top of OAuth 2, and we=E2=80=
=99re looking at repeating that kind of layering but in a more direct way as=
 possible.
>>>>=20
>>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Kim Cameron
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Txauth mailing list
>>>>> Txauth@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Txauth mailing list
>>>> Txauth@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

--Apple-Mail-61E0502D-886D-4777-8644-95B2CCC86812
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Am 28.01.2020 um 18:05 schrieb Dick Hardt &lt=
;dick.hardt@gmail.com&gt;:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div><div><div dir=3D"auto">Agreed.</div></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Not having subject be a global=
ly unique identifier, nor defining a concatenation mechanism &nbsp;has been a=
 developer issue.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Do you really=
 think that is the reason people use email addresses?<div><br></div><div>BTW=
: I have even seen OPs using phone numbers (or hashes thereof) as sub values=
. I think that=E2=80=99s an issue with knowledge/education.<br><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:57 AM Justin Riche=
r &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap=
:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">The claims in OIDC aren=E2=80=99t j=
ust JSON, many of them are JWT payload elements, which need to be compact so=
 that it could fit better into browser redirects and places like that. I con=
tend that we are not bound by the same restrictions, so just like with the S=
AML translations of =E2=80=9C&lt;saml:Issuer&gt;=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=
=80=9D we should consider what we really need in the new space even if it=E2=
=80=99s the same concepts translated over.<div><br></div><div>We=E2=80=99d b=
e foolish to ignore them, but also nearly as foolish to take them just becau=
se they exist and it=E2=80=99s the world we know. For instance, we know that=
 the OIDC separation of issuer and subject into a pair of values is really c=
onfusing to developers and leads to people using email address, username, or=
 other incorrect fields as a universal identifier. There are some things tha=
t we got right, though, such as the flat namespace-less JSON data model that=
 allows domain extensions.</div><div><br></div><div>So just as with anything=
 else in this proposed new work, I am arguing that we should take OIDC claim=
s as an influencing input to be evaluated in the context of what we=E2=80=99=
re trying to do. =E2=80=9CWe did it this way in OIDC=E2=80=9D is not a suffi=
cient argument for its inclusion in TxAuth, and therefore I agree that it do=
es not belong anywhere in the charter. But we also need to look at what we d=
id do in OIDC and figure out how and if it fits as we=E2=80=99re figuring ou=
t solutions.</div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-=
white-space"><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br><div><br><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 28, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Kim: are you suggesting that supporti=
ng OIDC claims be in the charter?<div><br></div><div>While I think that supp=
orting OIDC claims is desirable, I don't think that belongs in the charter.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Justin: OIDC claims inherently had to be different f=
rom SAML as the syntax was JSON vs XML.</div><div><br></div><div>Are you sug=
gesting that a different document format be used than JSON?</div><div><br></=
div><div>What do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?</div><div><br></div>=
<div>&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28,=
 2020 at 3:30 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=
=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi Kim, thanks for the feedback. Answers inlin=
e, below.<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 28, 2020, at 1:5=
7 AM, Kim &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" target=3D"_blank">kim@=
identityblog.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helv=
etica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:=
normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform=
:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.=
7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">Dear Ju=
stin,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb=
(33,37,41);background-color:white">The current wording of the draft charter r=
aised questions for me that others might share. Clarifying these would help t=
hose of us not familiar with the work to date.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;li=
ne-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:w=
hite">&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for auth=
orization, identity, and API access.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px=
;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">Can you pl=
ease expand on what you mean by delegation of identity and whether that leve=
rages claims and tokens as defined in OpenID Connect?</span></p></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>We would not necessarily be using the exact=
 claims and mechanisms in OIDC.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;=
font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;=
line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:10..5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,=
37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7p=
x;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; The u=
se cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cases c=
urrently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension of OAuth 2.=
0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.<u></u><u></u></span></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;l=
ine-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:=
white">I understand and support the motivations to rework the authorization f=
lows..&nbsp; However, the identity representations in OpenID Connect have al=
ready shown themselves to work well in conveying the identity of the end use=
r. It seems prudent to avoid the confusion and complexity that would result f=
rom introducing new mechanisms to do the same thing. Will the enhancements t=
o the authorization leverage what already works and has become a unifying te=
chnology?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>And when OI=
DC was invented, SAML had already been shown to work well in conveying the i=
dentity of an end user. I believe we can make a similar leap forward here. T=
his is not just a new conveyance mechanism for OIDC, but it will certainly l=
earn from it as OIDC learned from SAML and other things that came before.</d=
iv><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weig=
ht:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14=
.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;=
line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,3=
7,41);background-color:white">&gt; This protocol will allow an authorizing p=
arty to delegate access to client software through an authorization server=E2=
=80=A6<span>&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font=
-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; The client=
 and AS will involve the authorizing party as necessary through interaction m=
echanisms indicated by the protocol.<span>&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-colo=
r:white">What is the authorizing party? Is that one of the roles in the prot=
ocol?&nbsp; Is it the end user?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>It=E2=80=99s the OAuth/UMA =E2=80=9CResource Owner=E2=80=9D, whic=
h might be the user using the client software and might be someone else that=
 the AS can contact through other means..&nbsp;</div><br><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:no=
rmal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb=
(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:1=
4.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; A=
pproval of AS attestation to identity claims<u></u><u></u></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-heigh=
t:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">Do=
es this mean that the AS is approving of the claims and conveying that appro=
val to another party (and what party would that be)?&nbsp;</span></p></div><=
/div></blockquote><div>No, the authorizing party is approving the claims and=
 the AS is conveying the identity claims and the delegated access token to t=
he client.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ca=
ps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decorat=
ion:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.=
4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);backgroun=
d-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas=
;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">By identity claims are you leve=
raging claims as defined in OpenID Connect?</span></p></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div>Not necessarily, but they=E2=80=99re on the table as items=
 to consider.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"fon=
t-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal=
;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;li=
ne-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:w=
hite"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rg=
b(33,37,41);background-color:white">Are the identity claims about the end us=
er =E2=80=93 or other subjects as well?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>Generally speaking yes, though in the multi-user case (CI=
BA, UMA, and some device-flow use cases today), the claims of the authorizin=
g party are being conveyed to the end user of the client, who might be a dif=
ferent party. This is an advanced use case, though, so I see it as something=
 we can enable but not likely to be the most common use case, which is conve=
ying the current user=E2=80=99s claims to a piece of software that they=E2=80=
=99re using.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-hei=
ght:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0=
.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb=
(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; Mechanisms for providing user, softw=
are, organization, and other pieces of information used in authorization dec=
isions =E2=80=93<span>&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15..4px;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px=
;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">Could you e=
laborate on what information about users would be supplemental to those expr=
essed as claims?&nbsp; Also, would information about software and organizati=
on be expressed as claims?<span>&nbsp;</span></span></p></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>How the user logged in today, how the user was proo=
fed when they got the account, the status of the client software that was ma=
king the request at the time, etc. So yes, software and organization could a=
lso be represented as claims, though I can also imagine those being in diffe=
rent data structures.&nbsp;</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:no=
rmal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:n=
one"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5p=
t;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-col=
or:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consola=
s;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; Optimization of informati=
on and API access beyond identity through the delegation process<u></u><u></=
u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:=
15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);backgr=
ound-color:white">Could you please explain what is meant by this goal and ho=
w it relates to identity?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>At its core this isn=E2=80=99t an identity protocol, but a delegation p=
rotocol. One of the core things that it can delegate is knowledge of the ide=
ntity of the user. This is how OIDC is built on top of OAuth 2, and we=E2=80=
=99re looking at repeating that kind of layering but in a more direct way as=
 possible.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><br><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;fo=
nt-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consola=
s;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">Kim Cameron<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p></div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;=
font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:=
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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 21:57:20 -0800
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To: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter
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On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:16 PM Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.ne=
t>
wrote:

>
>
> Am 28.01.2020 um 18:05 schrieb Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>:
>
> =EF=BB=BF
> Agreed.
>
> Not having subject be a globally unique identifier, nor defining a
> concatenation mechanism  has been a developer issue.
>
>
> Do you really think that is the reason people use email addresses?
>

I have heard that from a number of product PMs.

Email has its own desirable features, but is a poor identifier as it makes
it harder to change. Most sophisticated implementations  have some private
key, and the id_token ids index to it.


> BTW: I have even seen OPs using phone numbers (or hashes thereof) as sub
> values. I think that=E2=80=99s an issue with knowledge/education.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:57 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> The claims in OIDC aren=E2=80=99t just JSON, many of them are JWT payloa=
d
>> elements, which need to be compact so that it could fit better into brow=
ser
>> redirects and places like that. I contend that we are not bound by the s=
ame
>> restrictions, so just like with the SAML translations of =E2=80=9C<saml:=
Issuer>=E2=80=9D to
>> =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D we should consider what we really need in the new =
space even if it=E2=80=99s
>> the same concepts translated over.
>>
>> We=E2=80=99d be foolish to ignore them, but also nearly as foolish to ta=
ke them
>> just because they exist and it=E2=80=99s the world we know. For instance=
, we know
>> that the OIDC separation of issuer and subject into a pair of values is
>> really confusing to developers and leads to people using email address,
>> username, or other incorrect fields as a universal identifier. There are
>> some things that we got right, though, such as the flat namespace-less J=
SON
>> data model that allows domain extensions.
>>
>> So just as with anything else in this proposed new work, I am arguing
>> that we should take OIDC claims as an influencing input to be evaluated =
in
>> the context of what we=E2=80=99re trying to do. =E2=80=9CWe did it this =
way in OIDC=E2=80=9D is not
>> a sufficient argument for its inclusion in TxAuth, and therefore I agree
>> that it does not belong anywhere in the charter. But we also need to loo=
k
>> at what we did do in OIDC and figure out how and if it fits as we=E2=80=
=99re
>> figuring out solutions.
>>
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>
>> On Jan 28, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Kim: are you suggesting that supporting OIDC claims be in the charter?
>>
>> While I think that supporting OIDC claims is desirable, I don't think
>> that belongs in the charter.
>>
>> Justin: OIDC claims inherently had to be different from SAML as the
>> syntax was JSON vs XML.
>>
>> Are you suggesting that a different document format be used than JSON?
>>
>> What do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 3:30 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Kim, thanks for the feedback. Answers inline, below.
>>>
>>> On Jan 28, 2020, at 1:57 AM, Kim <kim@identityblog.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Justin,
>>>
>>> The current wording of the draft charter raised questions for me that
>>> others might share. Clarifying these would help those of us not familia=
r
>>> with the work to date.
>>>
>>> > This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for
>>> authorization, identity, and API access.
>>>
>>> Can you please expand on what you mean by delegation of identity and
>>> whether that leverages claims and tokens as defined in OpenID Connect?
>>>
>>>
>>> We would not necessarily be using the exact claims and mechanisms in
>>> OIDC.
>>>
>>> > The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed
>>> use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an exten=
sion
>>> of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.
>>>
>>> I understand and support the motivations to rework the authorization
>>> flows..  However, the identity representations in OpenID Connect have
>>> already shown themselves to work well in conveying the identity of the =
end
>>> user. It seems prudent to avoid the confusion and complexity that would
>>> result from introducing new mechanisms to do the same thing. Will the
>>> enhancements to the authorization leverage what already works and has
>>> become a unifying technology?
>>>
>>>
>>> And when OIDC was invented, SAML had already been shown to work well in
>>> conveying the identity of an end user. I believe we can make a similar =
leap
>>> forward here. This is not just a new conveyance mechanism for OIDC, but=
 it
>>> will certainly learn from it as OIDC learned from SAML and other things
>>> that came before.
>>>
>>> > This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access to
>>> client software through an authorization server=E2=80=A6
>>>
>>> > The client and AS will involve the authorizing party as necessary
>>> through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol.
>>>
>>> What is the authorizing party? Is that one of the roles in the
>>> protocol?  Is it the end user?
>>>
>>>
>>> It=E2=80=99s the OAuth/UMA =E2=80=9CResource Owner=E2=80=9D, which migh=
t be the user using the
>>> client software and might be someone else that the AS can contact throu=
gh
>>> other means..
>>>
>>
>>> > Approval of AS attestation to identity claims
>>>
>>> Does this mean that the AS is approving of the claims and conveying tha=
t
>>> approval to another party (and what party would that be)?
>>>
>>> No, the authorizing party is approving the claims and the AS is
>>> conveying the identity claims and the delegated access token to the cli=
ent.
>>>
>>> By identity claims are you leveraging claims as defined in OpenID
>>> Connect?
>>>
>>>
>>> Not necessarily, but they=E2=80=99re on the table as items to consider.
>>>
>>> Are the identity claims about the end user =E2=80=93 or other subjects =
as well?
>>>
>>>
>>> Generally speaking yes, though in the multi-user case (CIBA, UMA, and
>>> some device-flow use cases today), the claims of the authorizing party =
are
>>> being conveyed to the end user of the client, who might be a different
>>> party. This is an advanced use case, though, so I see it as something w=
e
>>> can enable but not likely to be the most common use case, which is
>>> conveying the current user=E2=80=99s claims to a piece of software that=
 they=E2=80=99re
>>> using.
>>>
>>> > Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and other
>>> pieces of information used in authorization decisions =E2=80=93
>>>
>>> Could you elaborate on what information about users would be
>>> supplemental to those expressed as claims?  Also, would information abo=
ut
>>> software and organization be expressed as claims?
>>>
>>>
>>> How the user logged in today, how the user was proofed when they got th=
e
>>> account, the status of the client software that was making the request =
at
>>> the time, etc. So yes, software and organization could also be represen=
ted
>>> as claims, though I can also imagine those being in different data
>>> structures.
>>>
>>> > Optimization of information and API access beyond identity through th=
e
>>> delegation process
>>>
>>> Could you please explain what is meant by this goal and how it relates
>>> to identity?
>>>
>>>
>>> At its core this isn=E2=80=99t an identity protocol, but a delegation p=
rotocol.
>>> One of the core things that it can delegate is knowledge of the identit=
y of
>>> the user. This is how OIDC is built on top of OAuth 2, and we=E2=80=99r=
e looking at
>>> repeating that kind of layering but in a more direct way as possible.
>>>
>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Kim Cameron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Txauth mailing list
>>> Txauth@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Txauth mailing list
>>> Txauth@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>>
>>
>> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:16 PM Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Am 28.01.2020 =
um 18:05 schrieb Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br><br></blockquote></div><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div><div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Agreed.</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Not havin=
g subject be a globally unique identifier, nor defining a concatenation mec=
hanism =C2=A0has been a developer issue.</div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><br></div>Do you really think that is the reason people use email addresse=
s?</div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I have h=
eard that from a number of product PMs.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">Email has its own desirable features, but is a poor identif=
ier as it makes it harder to change. Most sophisticated implementations =C2=
=A0have some private key, and the id_token ids index to it.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><=
br></div><div>BTW: I have even seen OPs using phone numbers (or hashes ther=
eof) as sub values. I think that=E2=80=99s an issue with knowledge/educatio=
n.<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020=
 at 8:57 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"=
_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">The cl=
aims in OIDC aren=E2=80=99t just JSON, many of them are JWT payload element=
s, which need to be compact so that it could fit better into browser redire=
cts and places like that. I contend that we are not bound by the same restr=
ictions, so just like with the SAML translations of =E2=80=9C&lt;saml:Issue=
r&gt;=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D we should consider what we really n=
eed in the new space even if it=E2=80=99s the same concepts translated over=
.<div><br></div><div>We=E2=80=99d be foolish to ignore them, but also nearl=
y as foolish to take them just because they exist and it=E2=80=99s the worl=
d we know. For instance, we know that the OIDC separation of issuer and sub=
ject into a pair of values is really confusing to developers and leads to p=
eople using email address, username, or other incorrect fields as a univers=
al identifier. There are some things that we got right, though, such as the=
 flat namespace-less JSON data model that allows domain extensions.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>So just as with anything else in this proposed new work, =
I am arguing that we should take OIDC claims as an influencing input to be =
evaluated in the context of what we=E2=80=99re trying to do. =E2=80=9CWe di=
d it this way in OIDC=E2=80=9D is not a sufficient argument for its inclusi=
on in TxAuth, and therefore I agree that it does not belong anywhere in the=
 charter. But we also need to look at what we did do in OIDC and figure out=
 how and if it fits as we=E2=80=99re figuring out solutions.</div></div><di=
v style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div><br></di=
v><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On=
 Jan 28, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr">Kim: are you suggesting that supporting OIDC claims be in =
the charter?<div><br></div><div>While I think that supporting OIDC claims i=
s desirable, I don&#39;t think that belongs in the charter.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Justin: OIDC claims inherently had to be different from SAML as t=
he syntax was JSON vs XML.</div><div><br></div><div>Are you suggesting that=
 a different document format be used than JSON?</div><div><br></div><div>Wh=
at do you see as lacking in the OIDC claims?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020=
 at 3:30 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"=
_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi Kim, thanks for the feedback. Answers inline=
, below.<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 28, 2020, at 1:5=
7 AM, Kim &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" target=3D"_blank">kim=
@identityblog.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-family:He=
lvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weig=
ht:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-hei=
ght:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"=
>Dear Justin,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consola=
s;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">The current wording of the dr=
aft charter raised questions for me that others might share. Clarifying the=
se would help those of us not familiar with the work to date.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-he=
ight:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)=
;background-color:white">&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegati=
on protocol for authorization, identity, and API access.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background=
-color:white">Can you please expand on what you mean by delegation of ident=
ity and whether that leverages claims and tokens as defined in OpenID Conne=
ct?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We would not nec=
essarily be using the exact claims and mechanisms in OIDC.</div><div><br></=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font=
-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7=
px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; Th=
e use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed use cas=
es currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension of OAu=
th 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4=
px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);backgrou=
nd-color:white">I understand and support the motivations to rework the auth=
orization flows..=C2=A0 However, the identity representations in OpenID Con=
nect have already shown themselves to work well in conveying the identity o=
f the end user. It seems prudent to avoid the confusion and complexity that=
 would result from introducing new mechanisms to do the same thing. Will th=
e enhancements to the authorization leverage what already works and has bec=
ome a unifying technology?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>And when OIDC was invented, SAML had already been shown to work well=
 in conveying the identity of an end user. I believe we can make a similar =
leap forward here. This is not just a new conveyance mechanism for OIDC, bu=
t it will certainly learn from it as OIDC learned from SAML and other thing=
s that came before.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-=
decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-he=
ight:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)=
;background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;f=
ont-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; This p=
rotocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access to client softwa=
re through an authorization server=E2=80=A6<span>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-h=
eight:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41=
);background-color:white">&gt; The client and AS will involve the authorizi=
ng party as necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated by the proto=
col.<span>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-fami=
ly:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">What is the authori=
zing party? Is that one of the roles in the protocol?=C2=A0 Is it the end u=
ser?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It=E2=80=99s th=
e OAuth/UMA =E2=80=9CResource Owner=E2=80=9D, which might be the user using=
 the client software and might be someone else that the AS can contact thro=
ugh other means..=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></d=
iv></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div st=
yle=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div><div><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-=
decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-he=
ight:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)=
;background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;f=
ont-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">&gt; Approv=
al of AS attestation to identity claims<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:=
14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">Doe=
s this mean that the AS is approving of the claims and conveying that appro=
val to another party (and what party would that be)?=C2=A0</span></p></div>=
</div></blockquote><div>No, the authorizing party is approving the claims a=
nd the AS is conveying the identity claims and the delegated access token t=
o the client.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-=
decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-he=
ight:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41)=
;background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-fa=
mily:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">By identity claim=
s are you leveraging claims as defined in OpenID Connect?</span></p></div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div>Not necessarily, but they=E2=80=99re on th=
e table as items to consider.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>=
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t=
ext-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;lin=
e-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,3=
7,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;fo=
nt-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white">Are the iden=
tity claims about the end user =E2=80=93 or other subjects as well?</span><=
/p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Generally speaking yes, tho=
ugh in the multi-user case (CIBA, UMA, and some device-flow use cases today=
), the claims of the authorizing party are being conveyed to the end user o=
f the client, who might be a different party. This is an advanced use case,=
 though, so I see it as something we can enable but not likely to be the mo=
st common use case, which is conveying the current user=E2=80=99s claims to=
 a piece of software that they=E2=80=99re using.</div><br><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;=
color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.4px;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;l=
ine-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color=
:white">&gt; Mechanisms for providing user, software, organization, and oth=
er pieces of information used in authorization decisions =E2=80=93<span>=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);=
background-color:white">Could you elaborate on what information about users=
 would be supplemental to those expressed as claims?=C2=A0 Also, would info=
rmation about software and organization be expressed as claims?<span>=C2=A0=
</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How the user=
 logged in today, how the user was proofed when they got the account, the s=
tatus of the client software that was making the request at the time, etc. =
So yes, software and organization could also be represented as claims, thou=
gh I can also imagine those being in different data structures.=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-siz=
e:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-=
family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-hei=
ght:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);=
background-color:white">&gt; Optimization of information and API access bey=
ond identity through the delegation process<u></u><u></u></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-hei=
ght:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"=
>Could you please explain what is meant by this goal and how it relates to =
identity?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>At its cor=
e this isn=E2=80=99t an identity protocol, but a delegation protocol. One o=
f the core things that it can delegate is knowledge of the identity of the =
user. This is how OIDC is built on top of OAuth 2, and we=E2=80=99re lookin=
g at repeating that kind of layering but in a more direct way as possible.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div><br><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:14.7px;font-family:Consolas;=
color:rgb(33,37,41);background-color:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Kim Cameron<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:15.4px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><span style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:non=
e;display:inline">--<span>=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"font-family:Helv=
etica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight=
:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo=
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-c=
aps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-deco=
ration:none;float:none;display:inline">Txauth mailing list</span><br style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decora=
tion:none"><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:nor=
mal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:n=
one;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org<=
/a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font=
-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txa=
uth" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a></div></b=
lockquote></div><br></div>-- <br>
Txauth mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div>
<span>-- </span><br><span>Txauth mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a></span><br><span=
><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a></span><br></div></blockqu=
ote></div></div></blockquote></div></div>

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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 22:01:20 -0800
Message-ID: <CAD9ie-topDftG2XOMO0ri0iXQiJGrhH-9-nVndPC238e=EOskg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>
Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:09 PM Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.ne=
t>
wrote:

>
>
> > Am 29.01.2020 um 02:13 schrieb Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>:
> >
> > All identity claim use cases. A set of these are solved by OpenID
> Connect, which is an extension to OAuth 2.0. TxAuth would also be a
> superset of OpenID Connect in addition to OAuth.
>
> Don=E2=80=99t you think this would make TxAuth a bit complicated? What wo=
uld be
> the benefit?


Not any more than today, as many consumer IdPs have both in the same flows,
and that is what is in the proposed charter.

Having the information all in one document would make it simpler to
implement and understand.

Did you have chance to look at XAuth Torsten?

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div di=
r=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:09 PM Torsten Lodd=
erstedt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target=3D"_blank">to=
rsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><br>
<br>
&gt; Am 29.01.2020 um 02:13 schrieb Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.h=
ardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; All identity claim use cases. A set of these are solved by OpenID Conn=
ect, which is an extension to OAuth 2.0. TxAuth would also be a superset of=
 OpenID Connect in addition to OAuth.<br>
<br>
Don=E2=80=99t you think this would make TxAuth a bit complicated? What woul=
d be the benefit?</blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Not any more than today, as many consumer IdPs have both in the same flows=
, and that is what is in the proposed charter.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div>Having the information all in one document would make it si=
mpler to implement and understand.</div><div><br></div><div>Did you have ch=
ance to look at XAuth Torsten?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"></blockquote></div></div>
</div>

--0000000000007f49dd059d411260--


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Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
To: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>
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I think the ekyc work is great for what it is, but again we have an =
opportunity to take a step beyond it. In my view, we=E2=80=99d be better =
off defining a means of specifying field metadata a la NIST IR 8112 as =
part of the schema instead of patching the existing OIDC fields. =
https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:13 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>:
>>=20
>> The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verification =
occurred.
>=20
> Sure, they do. Look at the time and method fields.=20
>=20
> Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka verified_claims) is =
ongoing work feel free to contribute.
>=20
> https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/ <https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/>

--Apple-Mail=_00031185-91DC-4765-B03B-9265FF150A25
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
think the ekyc work is great for what it is, but again we have an =
opportunity to take a step beyond it. In my view, we=E2=80=99d be better =
off defining a means of specifying field metadata a la NIST IR 8112 as =
part of the schema instead of patching the existing OIDC fields.&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/" =
class=3D"">https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/</a><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:13 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" =
class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, =
Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99=
t define how or when verification occurred.</div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Sure, they do. Look at the time and method =
fields.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka =
verified_claims) is ongoing work feel free to contribute.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/" =
class=3D"">https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/</a></div></div></div></blockquo=
te></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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> Am 29.01.2020 um 07:01 schrieb Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
>=20
>=20
>> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:09 PM Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.=
net> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> > Am 29.01.2020 um 02:13 schrieb Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>:
>> >=20
>> > All identity claim use cases. A set of these are solved by OpenID Conne=
ct, which is an extension to OAuth 2.0. TxAuth would also be a superset of O=
penID Connect in addition to OAuth.
>>=20
>> Don=E2=80=99t you think this would make TxAuth a bit complicated? What wo=
uld be the benefit?
>=20
> Not any more than today, as many consumer IdPs have both in the same flows=
, and that is what is in the proposed charter.=20
>=20
> Having the information all in one document would make it simpler to implem=
ent and understand.
>=20

I doubt. If i calculate the size of all relevant oauth specs + all relevant o=
penid connect specs (including verified claims), that will most likely be a m=
ulti 100 pages spec that few people will fully understand and be able to rev=
iew/contribute to and fully & correctly implement.

Modularity and extensibility is key to success of this initiative.

> Did you have chance to look at XAuth Torsten?

Not in detail.

>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Am 29.01.2020 um 07:01 schrieb Dick Hardt &lt=
;dick.hardt@gmail.com&gt;:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2=
020 at 9:09 PM Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt=
.net" target=3D"_blank">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
&gt; Am 29.01.2020 um 02:13 schrieb Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.ha=
rdt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; All identity claim use cases. A set of these are solved by OpenID Conne=
ct, which is an extension to OAuth 2.0. TxAuth would also be a superset of O=
penID Connect in addition to OAuth.<br>
<br>
Don=E2=80=99t you think this would make TxAuth a bit complicated? What would=
 be the benefit?</blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">N=
ot any more than today, as many consumer IdPs have both in the same flows, a=
nd that is what is in the proposed charter.&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div>Having the information all in one document would make it simpler=
 to implement and understand.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div>I doubt. If i calculate the size of all relevant o=
auth specs + all relevant openid connect specs (including verified claims), t=
hat will most likely be a multi 100 pages spec that few people will fully un=
derstand and be able to review/contribute to and fully &amp; correctly imple=
ment.<div><br></div><div>Modularity and extensibility is key to success of t=
his initiative.<br><div><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Did you have chance to=
 look at XAuth Torsten?</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div>Not in detail.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></div></div>
</div>
<span>-- </span><br><span>Txauth mailing list</span><br><span>Txauth@ietf.or=
g</span><br><span>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</span><br></d=
iv></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>
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Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter
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> Am 29.01.2020 um 07:34 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFI think the ekyc work is great for what it is, but again we have a=
n opportunity to take a step beyond it. In my view, we=E2=80=99d be better o=
ff defining a means of specifying field metadata a la NIST IR 8112 as part o=
f the schema instead of patching the existing OIDC fields. https://pages.nis=
t.gov/NISTIR-8112/

We tried and it did not fulfill our requirements. verified_claims is by no m=
eans a patch, it=E2=80=99s a viable solution.

>=20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>>> On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:13 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.ne=
t> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=3D4=
0amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>:
>>>>=20
>>> The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verification oc=
curred.
>>=20
>> Sure, they do. Look at the time and method fields.=20
>>=20
>> Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka verified_claims) is ongo=
ing work feel free to contribute.
>>=20
>> https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Am 29.01.2020 um 07:34 schrieb Justin Richer &=
lt;jricher@mit.edu&gt;:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/=
html; charset=3Dutf-8">I think the ekyc work is great for what it is, but ag=
ain we have an opportunity to take a step beyond it. In my view, we=E2=80=99=
d be better off defining a means of specifying field metadata a la NIST IR 8=
112 as part of the schema instead of patching the existing OIDC fields.&nbsp=
;<a href=3D"https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/" class=3D"">https://pages.ni=
st.gov/NISTIR-8112/</a></div></blockquote><div><br></div>We tried and it did=
 not fulfill our requirements. verified_claims is by no means a patch, it=E2=
=80=99s a viable solution.<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justi=
n<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><di=
v class=3D"">On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:13 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; w=
rote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta htt=
p-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D""><=
div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D=
"">Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" class=3D"">richanna=3D40amazo=
n.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote></di=
v><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">The ..._v=
erified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verification occurred.</div>=
</blockquote><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">Sure, they do. Look at the time a=
nd method fields.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=
=3D"">Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka verified_claims) is o=
ngoing work feel free to contribute.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></d=
iv><div class=3D""><a href=3D"https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/" class=3D"">ht=
tps://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/</a></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br cl=
ass=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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I completely agree that modularity of the documents is key, but keep in =
mind that the charter specifies only the total end result and not how =
the documents are split up. How we slice things is a key decision that =
the working group needs to make. I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99ll see =
everything in in a single document, but I do think we=E2=80=99ll see a =
lot more in a =E2=80=9Ccore=E2=80=9D document than is in OAuth 2 today.=20=


We aren=E2=80=99t setting out to just mash together OAuth 2 and all of =
its extensions, including OIDC =E2=80=94 anything like that would =
clearly be suited for the OAuth WG.=20

I think that if we=E2=80=99re careful and deliberate, especially if =
we=E2=80=99re not dragging legacy decisions =E2=80=9Cjust because=E2=80=9D=
, then we have a chance to make things really work here without getting =
overly complex. Much of OIDC=E2=80=99s complexity stems from it adding =
functionality to OAuth 2 or overcoming limitations in OAuth 2. A lot of =
that can go away if we are building these aspects together from the =
start.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:04 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten=3D40lodderstedt.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> Am 29.01.2020 um 07:01 schrieb Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>:
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BF
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:09 PM Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt..net>> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> > Am 29.01.2020 um 02:13 schrieb Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>:
>> >=20
>> > All identity claim use cases. A set of these are solved by OpenID =
Connect, which is an extension to OAuth 2.0. TxAuth would also be a =
superset of OpenID Connect in addition to OAuth.
>>=20
>> Don=E2=80=99t you think this would make TxAuth a bit complicated? =
What would be the benefit?
>>=20
>> Not any more than today, as many consumer IdPs have both in the same =
flows, and that is what is in the proposed charter.=20
>>=20
>> Having the information all in one document would make it simpler to =
implement and understand.
>>=20
>=20
> I doubt. If i calculate the size of all relevant oauth specs + all =
relevant openid connect specs (including verified claims), that will =
most likely be a multi 100 pages spec that few people will fully =
understand and be able to review/contribute to and fully & correctly =
implement.
>=20
> Modularity and extensibility is key to success of this initiative.
>=20
>> Did you have chance to look at XAuth Torsten?
>=20
> Not in detail.
>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
completely agree that modularity of the documents is key, but keep in =
mind that the charter specifies only the total end result and not how =
the documents are split up. How we slice things is a key decision that =
the working group needs to make. I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99ll see =
everything in in a single document, but I do think we=E2=80=99ll see a =
lot more in a =E2=80=9Ccore=E2=80=9D document than is in OAuth 2 =
today.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We =
aren=E2=80=99t setting out to just mash together OAuth 2 and all of its =
extensions, including OIDC =E2=80=94 anything like that would clearly be =
suited for the OAuth WG.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think that if we=E2=80=99re careful =
and deliberate, especially if we=E2=80=99re not dragging legacy =
decisions =E2=80=9Cjust because=E2=80=9D, then we have a chance to make =
things really work here without getting overly complex. Much of OIDC=E2=80=
=99s complexity stems from it adding functionality to OAuth 2 or =
overcoming limitations in OAuth 2. A lot of that can go away if we are =
building these aspects together from the start.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 =
Justin<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:04 AM, Torsten =
Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten=3D40lodderstedt.net@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">torsten=3D40lodderstedt.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Am 29.01.2020 um 07:01 =
schrieb Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">=EF=BB=BF<d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:09 PM Torsten Lodderstedt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt..net" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&gt; Am 29.01.2020 um 02:13 schrieb Dick Hardt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br class=3D"">&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&gt; All =
identity claim use cases. A set of these are solved by OpenID Connect, =
which is an extension to OAuth 2.0. TxAuth would also be a superset of =
OpenID Connect in addition to OAuth.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Don=E2=80=
=99t you think this would make TxAuth a bit complicated? What would be =
the benefit?</blockquote><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">Not any more than today, =
as many consumer IdPs have both in the same flows, and that is what is =
in the proposed charter.&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Having the information all in one =
document would make it simpler to implement and understand.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I doubt. If i =
calculate the size of all relevant oauth specs + all relevant openid =
connect specs (including verified claims), that will most likely be a =
multi 100 pages spec that few people will fully understand and be able =
to review/contribute to and fully &amp; correctly implement.</span><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">Modularity and extensibility is key to success of this =
initiative.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">Did you have chance to look at =
XAuth Torsten?</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Not in detail.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: =
1ex;"></blockquote></div></div></div><span class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">Txauth mailing list</span><br class=3D""><span class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a></span><br =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a></span><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div></div></div><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Txauth mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a></div></blockqu=
ote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Wed Jan 29 00:46:41 2020
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 09:46:20 +0100
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Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
To: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>
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--Apple-Mail=_559A8EB8-2C23-47A4-BEF6-9E9CC39AA46A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8

I didn=E2=80=99t mean =E2=80=9Cpatch=E2=80=9D to sound disparaging, =
sorry if it came across as such. What I mean by =E2=80=9Cpatching=E2=80=9D=
 here is that it is adding functionality to an existing set of claims =
and schema. If you are using that schema as a base, it makes sense as a =
viable solution in that space. I, however, am bringing up the question =
of whether we are using that schema as our base at all.

I=E2=80=99ll note that 8112 doesn=E2=80=99t define a schema or syntax, =
both of which are required. But if we were starting OIDC today with =
EKYC=E2=80=99s requirements, I=E2=80=99m not convinced we=E2=80=99d end =
up with the same structure.=20

As with everything, it=E2=80=99s a very important input into what =
we=E2=80=99re trying to solve, especially influencing what=E2=80=99s =
extensible and how.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> Am 29.01.2020 um 07:34 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>:
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BFI think the ekyc work is great for what it is, but again we =
have an opportunity to take a step beyond it. In my view, we=E2=80=99d =
be better off defining a means of specifying field metadata a la NIST IR =
8112 as part of the schema instead of patching the existing OIDC fields. =
https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/ =
<https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/>
> We tried and it did not fulfill our requirements. verified_claims is =
by no means a patch, it=E2=80=99s a viable solution.
>=20
>>=20
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>> On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:13 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>:
>>>>=20
>>>> The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when =
verification occurred.
>>>=20
>>> Sure, they do. Look at the time and method fields.=20
>>>=20
>>> Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka verified_claims) is =
ongoing work feel free to contribute.
>>>=20
>>> https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/ <https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/>


--Apple-Mail=_559A8EB8-2C23-47A4-BEF6-9E9CC39AA46A
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
didn=E2=80=99t mean =E2=80=9Cpatch=E2=80=9D to sound disparaging, sorry =
if it came across as such. What I mean by =E2=80=9Cpatching=E2=80=9D =
here is that it is adding functionality to an existing set of claims and =
schema. If you are using that schema as a base, it makes sense as a =
viable solution in that space. I, however, am bringing up the question =
of whether we are using that schema as our base at all.<div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ll note that 8112 doesn=E2=80=99=
t define a schema or syntax, both of which are required. But if we were =
starting OIDC today with EKYC=E2=80=99s requirements, I=E2=80=99m not =
convinced we=E2=80=99d end up with the same structure.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As with everything, =
it=E2=80=99s a very important input into what we=E2=80=99re trying to =
solve, especially influencing what=E2=80=99s extensible and =
how.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=
=94 Justin<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:06 AM, =
Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" =
class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Am 29.01.2020 um 07:34 schrieb Justin Richer =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" =
content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">I think the ekyc work =
is great for what it is, but again we have an opportunity to take a step =
beyond it. In my view, we=E2=80=99d be better off defining a means of =
specifying field metadata a la NIST IR 8112 as part of the schema =
instead of patching the existing OIDC fields.&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/" =
class=3D"">https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/</a></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>We tried and it did not fulfill our =
requirements. verified_claims is by no means a patch, it=E2=80=99s a =
viable solution.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:13 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" =
class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, =
Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99=
t define how or when verification occurred.</div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Sure, they do. Look at the time and method =
fields.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka =
verified_claims) is ongoing work feel free to contribute.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/" =
class=3D"">https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/</a></div></div></div></blockquo=
te></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><=
br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_559A8EB8-2C23-47A4-BEF6-9E9CC39AA46A--


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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>
CC: Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/wWJ8qMF7NWu4bj6RJiTL-eekm8A>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Questions on the TxAuth charter
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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Hi Roman, thanks for the review. I=E2=80=99ll respond to the questions =
in line.

> On Jan 29, 2020, at 1:13 AM, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hi!
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TxAuth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf of Justin Richer
>> Sent: Sat, 18 January 2020 14:15 UTCShow
>> To: IETF TxAuth <txauth@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
>>=20
>=20
> [snip]
>> I would really appreciate the security AD's weighing in at this =
stage. Thanks
>> again everyone!
>=20
> The Sec ADs have reviewed the charter (as of v3.5) and at a high level =
believe the scope could use a bit more precision.  If there was no prior =
work, the situation would be different.  However, in this case, =
relationships with the existing OAuth WG needs to be navigated. =20

That makes a lot of senes, and I appreciate the drive to clarity.

> Topics that require discussion and clarity include:
>=20
> ** is TxAuth intended to solve all existing OAuth use cases (i.e., is =
TxAuth is a superset of OAuth) in a new, non-backward compatible way?  =
If not all, which would not be addressed?

Yes, it is my perspective that we would be working on a superset of =
OAuth use cases. However, that does not mean that we would be replicated =
OAuth functionality exactly =E2=80=94 there will be things that we solve =
in fairly different ways (like single-page apps, for example).

If this were happening in the OAuth WG, this work would likely be called =
OAuth 3.0, and that might still be the final name at some point in the =
future.=20

How would you recommend we communicate that in the charter? Should we =
explicitly call out coordination with OAuth WG?

> ** what new use cases would TxAuth address (that aren't in scope for =
OAuth)?

Identity is a big one, which is what OIDC currently layers on top of =
OAuth 2. We=E2=80=99d also be looking at user-to-user delegation (the =
UMA and CIBA use cases). We=E2=80=99re also looking at cases that =
involve non-web interaction with users (like the DID/VC work, or =
app-to-app communication on devices). All of these are listed in the =
proposed text, do they need to be called out as being beyond OAuth 2?

> ** given a new use case requirement for delegated =
authorization/identity, what would be the decision process to decide to =
which WG or WGs it would go?

These are different protocols, so a large part of it would be what =
context is it being solved in? If =E2=80=9Cusing OAuth 2=E2=80=9D is a =
requirement, which is going to be the case for a lot of people for a =
while yet, then the OAuth WG would pick it up. That=E2=80=99s why =
we=E2=80=99re still doing PAR, JAR, RAR, and the like over there. If you =
don=E2=80=99t have to use OAuth 2 or OIDC as your base, or if you need =
behaviors that are outside the OAuth 2, then you direct the work here.=20=


Or you bring the use case to both spaces, and maybe there=E2=80=99s an =
OAuth 2 and a TxAuth version of what you=E2=80=99re after, and these =
solutions are coordinated as much as makes sense.=20

What should the charter say to address this information routing =
question?

> ** notional milestones (not the dates, but the deliverables)

Is this a proposed document list? I had thought we=E2=80=99d already =
kinda covered this in the extant text, but I=E2=80=99m taking this =
comment that we need something that=E2=80=99s more specific.=20

>=20
> In the details of the text:
>=20
> (1) Distinguish what's new (instance #1):
> OLD:
> This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for =
authorization, identity, and API access.
>=20
> NEW:
> This group is chartered to develop a fine-grained delegation protocol =
for authorization, identity, and API access.
>=20

That works for me.

> (2) Distinguish what's new (instance #2):
> OLD:
> The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed =
use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an =
extension of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth =
2.0.
>=20
> NEW:
> It will expand upon the uses cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 =
and OpenID Connect (itself an extension of OAuth 2.0) to support =
authorizations scoped as narrowly as a single transaction, provide a =
clear framework for interaction among all parties involved in the =
protocol flow, and remove unnecessary dependence on a browser or =
user-agent for coordinating interactions.
>=20

I like this, thanks.

> (3) Style Nit:
> OLD:
> Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types of =
client applications
>=20
> NEW:=20
> A variety of client applications, including Web, mobile, single-page, =
and interaction-constrained applications
>=20

Works for me.

> (4) Per "Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings", perhaps it =
might be clearer to say "Mechanisms for presenting tokens to resource =
servers and binding resource requests to cryptographic keys=E2=80=9D
>=20

That works, though probably =E2=80=9Cbinding resource requests to tokens =
and associated cryptographic keys"

> (5) Per "Mechanisms for providing user, software ...", perhaps it =
might be clearer to say "Mechanism for conveying user, software =E2=80=A6"=


Sounds good.

>=20
> (6) Per "Optimization of information and API access beyond identity =
through the delegation process", is this suggesting the need for =
optimizing access to TxAuth information for use cases beyond identity? =
Or the inclusion of information that isn't identity information into the =
delegation process? =20

It=E2=80=99s the latter =E2=80=94 there=E2=80=99s been stated interest =
in including information beyond just an access token in the response. =
Identity is the first clear use case of this, but I think we can treat =
identity information as a specific case of a more generic response.

>=20
> (7) Refine the protocol focus:
> OLD:
> While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication =
between the client and the authorization server, the working group will =
seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where =
possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols =
such as COAP.
>=20
> NEW:
> The initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between =
the client and the authorization server, taking advantage of =
optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and will strive =
to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP when doing so =
does not conflict with the primary focus.

I like this wording, thanks.

>=20
> Regards,
> Roman and Ben
>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Questions on the TxAuth charter
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I strongly object to calling out JWTs as the preferred solution for =
signed and encrypted claims within this working group.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 29, 2020, at 9:50 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Thanks for writing these detailed questions, Kim.  I believe that they =
point out a number of places where even experts in the field, such as =
yourself, currently have trouble understanding parts of what the charter =
is proposing that we do =E2=80=93 partially because terminology is used =
that isn=E2=80=99t commonly understood.  I hope that the draft charter =
will be revised to make the intent and the goals more accessible and =
less ambiguous.
> =20
> Responding to the discussion on whether existing JWT identity claims =
will do the job or not, fortunately, even if they don=E2=80=99t, =
there=E2=80=99s a mechanism to add ones that do: the IANA JSON Web Token =
Claims registry at https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims =
<https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims>.  For instance, =
an =E2=80=9Cemail_addresses=E2=80=9D claim that is array-valued could be =
defined and registered if there=E2=80=99s a need to represent multiple =
e-mail addresses, per Annabelle=E2=80=99s example.  The further good =
news is that if the working group defines new claims that are =
registered, they can be reused by others also using JWTs =E2=80=93 just =
like this working group can reuse claims defined by others.
> =20
> Also on the subject of JWTs, I would suggest that the charter be =
updated to explicitly call out that JWTs will be the working group=E2=80=99=
s preferred representation signed and/or encrypted claims.
> =20
> Finally, I also think that the charter would benefit from explicitly =
listing things that are out of scope (which is often done in charters).
> =20
> Thanks again for prompting this useful discussion, Kim.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Justin Richer
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 12:46 AM
> To: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net =
<mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>>
> Cc: Kim <kim@identityblog.com <mailto:kim@identityblog.com>>; Dick =
Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>; =
txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter
> =20
> I didn=E2=80=99t mean =E2=80=9Cpatch=E2=80=9D to sound disparaging, =
sorry if it came across as such. What I mean by =E2=80=9Cpatching=E2=80=9D=
 here is that it is adding functionality to an existing set of claims =
and schema. If you are using that schema as a base, it makes sense as a =
viable solution in that space. I, however, am bringing up the question =
of whether we are using that schema as our base at all.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ll note that 8112 doesn=E2=80=99t define a schema or syntax, =
both of which are required. But if we were starting OIDC today with =
EKYC=E2=80=99s requirements, I=E2=80=99m not convinced we=E2=80=99d end =
up with the same structure.=20
> =20
> As with everything, it=E2=80=99s a very important input into what =
we=E2=80=99re trying to solve, especially influencing what=E2=80=99s =
extensible and how.
> =20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>=20
> On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>> wrote:
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Am 29.01.2020 um 07:34 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFI think the ekyc work is great for what it is, but again we =
have an opportunity to take a step beyond it. In my view, we=E2=80=99d =
be better off defining a means of specifying field metadata a la NIST IR =
8112 as part of the schema instead of patching the existing OIDC fields. =
https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/ =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fpages=
.nist.gov%2FNISTIR-8112%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%=
7C9fae503669f443a0968308d7a497c45f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%=
7C0%7C637158844049338344&sdata=3DrOrKaO7MvDDKLyfB2QivbVTcj5EmRSJ1nRXXs30jE=
z0%3D&reserved=3D0>
> =20
> We tried and it did not fulfill our requirements. verified_claims is =
by no means a patch, it=E2=80=99s a viable solution.
>=20
>=20
> =20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>=20
> On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:13 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>> wrote:
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>:
>=20
> The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verification =
occurred.
> =20
> Sure, they do. Look at the time and method fields.=20
> =20
> Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka verified_claims) is =
ongoing work feel free to contribute.
> =20
> https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/ =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fopeni=
d.net%2Fwg%2Fekyc-ida%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%7C=
9fae503669f443a0968308d7a497c45f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C=
0%7C637158844049338344&sdata=3Dpg8upwyN%2BXKeaFZaKEvR%2BTEPsKgjeJtdHwPM1fe=
%2Fxnc%3D&reserved=3D0>

--Apple-Mail=_E5965FB9-FEC1-4CF8-8BE9-FFC119020AD9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
strongly object to calling out JWTs as the preferred solution for signed =
and encrypted claims within this working group.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 29, 2020, at 9:50 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Thanks for writing these =
detailed questions, Kim.&nbsp; I believe that they point out a number of =
places where even experts in the field, such as yourself, currently have =
trouble understanding parts of what the charter is proposing that we do =
=E2=80=93 partially because terminology is used that isn=E2=80=99t =
commonly understood.&nbsp; I hope that the draft charter will be revised =
to make the intent and the goals more accessible and less ambiguous.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Responding =
to the discussion on whether existing JWT identity claims will do the =
job or not, fortunately, even if they don=E2=80=99t, there=E2=80=99s a =
mechanism to add ones that do: the IANA JSON Web Token Claims registry =
at<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims</a>.&nbsp=
; For instance, an =E2=80=9Cemail_addresses=E2=80=9D claim that is =
array-valued could be defined and registered if there=E2=80=99s a need =
to represent multiple e-mail addresses, per Annabelle=E2=80=99s =
example.&nbsp; The further good news is that if the working group =
defines new claims that are registered, they can be reused by others =
also using JWTs =E2=80=93 just like this working group can reuse claims =
defined by others.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Also on the =
subject of JWTs, I would suggest that the charter be updated to =
explicitly call out that JWTs will be the working group=E2=80=99s =
preferred representation signed and/or encrypted claims.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Finally, I =
also think that the charter would benefit from explicitly listing things =
that are out of scope (which is often done in charters).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Thanks =
again for prompting this useful discussion, Kim.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Txauth &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin =
Richer<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, January 29, 2020 =
12:46 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Kim &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">kim@identityblog.com</a>&gt;; =
Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color: =
blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[EXTERNAL] Re: [Txauth] =
Questions on the TxAuth charter<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I didn=E2=80=99t mean =E2=80=9Cpatch=E2=80=9D to sound =
disparaging, sorry if it came across as such. What I mean by =
=E2=80=9Cpatching=E2=80=9D here is that it is adding functionality to an =
existing set of claims and schema. If you are using that schema as a =
base, it makes sense as a viable solution in that space. I, however, am =
bringing up the question of whether we are using that schema as our base =
at all.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ll note that 8112 doesn=E2=80=99=
t define a schema or syntax, both of which are required. But if we were =
starting OIDC today with EKYC=E2=80=99s requirements, I=E2=80=99m not =
convinced we=E2=80=99d end up with the same structure.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">As with everything, it=E2=80=99s a very =
important input into what we=E2=80=99re trying to solve, especially =
influencing what=E2=80=99s extensible and how.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Am =
29.01.2020 um 07:34 schrieb Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFI think the ekyc work is great for what it is, but =
again we have an opportunity to take a step beyond it. In my view, =
we=E2=80=99d be better off defining a means of specifying field metadata =
a la NIST IR 8112 as part of the schema instead of patching the existing =
OIDC fields.&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Fpages.nist.gov%2FNISTIR-8112%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40mic=
rosoft.com%7C9fae503669f443a0968308d7a497c45f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd0=
11db47%7C1%7C0%7C637158844049338344&amp;sdata=3DrOrKaO7MvDDKLyfB2QivbVTcj5=
EmRSJ1nRXXs30jEz0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">We tried and it did not fulfill our requirements. =
verified_claims is by no means a patch, it=E2=80=99s a viable =
solution.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:13 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Am =
28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when =
verification occurred.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Sure, they do. Look at the =
time and method fields.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka =
verified_claims) is ongoing work feel free to contribute.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Fopenid.net%2Fwg%2Fekyc-ida%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40micro=
soft.com%7C9fae503669f443a0968308d7a497c45f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011=
db47%7C1%7C0%7C637158844049338344&amp;sdata=3Dpg8upwyN%2BXKeaFZaKEvR%2BTEP=
sKgjeJtdHwPM1fe%2Fxnc%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/</a></div></div></div></div></bl=
ockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@hopebailie.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 11:40:28 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 11:04, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> Hi Roman, thanks for the review. I=E2=80=99ll respond to the questions in=
 line.
>
> > On Jan 29, 2020, at 1:13 AM, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: TxAuth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf of Justin Richer
> >> Sent: Sat, 18 January 2020 14:15 UTCShow
> >> To: IETF TxAuth <txauth@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
> >>
> >
> > [snip]
> >> I would really appreciate the security AD's weighing in at this stage.
> Thanks
> >> again everyone!
> >
> > The Sec ADs have reviewed the charter (as of v3.5) and at a high level
> believe the scope could use a bit more precision.  If there was no prior
> work, the situation would be different.  However, in this case,
> relationships with the existing OAuth WG needs to be navigated.
>
> That makes a lot of senes, and I appreciate the drive to clarity.
>
> > Topics that require discussion and clarity include:
> >
> > ** is TxAuth intended to solve all existing OAuth use cases (i.e., is
> TxAuth is a superset of OAuth) in a new, non-backward compatible way?  If
> not all, which would not be addressed?
>
> Yes, it is my perspective that we would be working on a superset of OAuth
> use cases. However, that does not mean that we would be replicated OAuth
> functionality exactly =E2=80=94 there will be things that we solve in fai=
rly
> different ways (like single-page apps, for example).
>
> If this were happening in the OAuth WG, this work would likely be called
> OAuth 3.0, and that might still be the final name at some point in the
> future.
>
> How would you recommend we communicate that in the charter? Should we
> explicitly call out coordination with OAuth WG?
>
> > ** what new use cases would TxAuth address (that aren't in scope for
> OAuth)?
>
> Identity is a big one, which is what OIDC currently layers on top of OAut=
h
> 2. We=E2=80=99d also be looking at user-to-user delegation (the UMA and C=
IBA use
> cases). We=E2=80=99re also looking at cases that involve non-web interact=
ion with
> users (like the DID/VC work, or app-to-app communication on devices). All
> of these are listed in the proposed text, do they need to be called out a=
s
> being beyond OAuth 2?
>

We are most interested in payments use cases. Specifically we find the use
of OAuth 2.0 for delegated access to financial accounts very limited,
forcing us into using things like the "Lodging Intents Pattern". I think
Torsten has made the point well in his blogs on the topic (
https://medium.com/oauth-2/transaction-authorization-or-why-we-need-to-re-t=
hink-oauth-scopes-2326e2038948
).

I believe this can be broadened to include any use case where the
authorization flow involves the user/RO giving consent to a client to
perform a specific transaction (as opposed to simply get access to a
resource or API) and the need for the AS to have the details of this prior
to authorization so the details can be properly presented to the user.


>
> > ** given a new use case requirement for delegated
> authorization/identity, what would be the decision process to decide to
> which WG or WGs it would go?
>
> These are different protocols, so a large part of it would be what contex=
t
> is it being solved in? If =E2=80=9Cusing OAuth 2=E2=80=9D is a requiremen=
t, which is going
> to be the case for a lot of people for a while yet, then the OAuth WG wou=
ld
> pick it up. That=E2=80=99s why we=E2=80=99re still doing PAR, JAR, RAR, a=
nd the like over
> there. If you don=E2=80=99t have to use OAuth 2 or OIDC as your base, or =
if you
> need behaviors that are outside the OAuth 2, then you direct the work her=
e.
>
> Or you bring the use case to both spaces, and maybe there=E2=80=99s an OA=
uth 2 and
> a TxAuth version of what you=E2=80=99re after, and these solutions are co=
ordinated
> as much as makes sense.
>
> What should the charter say to address this information routing question?
>
> > ** notional milestones (not the dates, but the deliverables)
>
> Is this a proposed document list? I had thought we=E2=80=99d already kind=
a covered
> this in the extant text, but I=E2=80=99m taking this comment that we need=
 something
> that=E2=80=99s more specific.
>
> >
> > In the details of the text:
> >
> > (1) Distinguish what's new (instance #1):
> > OLD:
> > This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for
> authorization, identity, and API access.
> >
> > NEW:
> > This group is chartered to develop a fine-grained delegation protocol
> for authorization, identity, and API access.
> >
>
> That works for me.
>
> > (2) Distinguish what's new (instance #2):
> > OLD:
> > The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed
> use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extensi=
on
> of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.
> >
> > NEW:
> > It will expand upon the uses cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and
> OpenID Connect (itself an extension of OAuth 2.0) to support authorizatio=
ns
> scoped as narrowly as a single transaction, provide a clear framework for
> interaction among all parties involved in the protocol flow, and remove
> unnecessary dependence on a browser or user-agent for coordinating
> interactions.
> >
>
> I like this, thanks.
>
> > (3) Style Nit:
> > OLD:
> > Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types of
> client applications
> >
> > NEW:
> > A variety of client applications, including Web, mobile, single-page,
> and interaction-constrained applications
> >
>
> Works for me.
>
> > (4) Per "Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings", perhaps it
> might be clearer to say "Mechanisms for presenting tokens to resource
> servers and binding resource requests to cryptographic keys=E2=80=9D
> >
>
> That works, though probably =E2=80=9Cbinding resource requests to tokens =
and
> associated cryptographic keys"
>
> > (5) Per "Mechanisms for providing user, software ...", perhaps it might
> be clearer to say "Mechanism for conveying user, software =E2=80=A6"
>
> Sounds good.
>
> >
> > (6) Per "Optimization of information and API access beyond identity
> through the delegation process", is this suggesting the need for optimizi=
ng
> access to TxAuth information for use cases beyond identity? Or the
> inclusion of information that isn't identity information into the
> delegation process?
>
> It=E2=80=99s the latter =E2=80=94 there=E2=80=99s been stated interest in=
 including information
> beyond just an access token in the response. Identity is the first clear
> use case of this, but I think we can treat identity information as a
> specific case of a more generic response.
>
> >
> > (7) Refine the protocol focus:
> > OLD:
> > While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication
> between the client and the authorization server, the working group will
> seek to take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where
> possible, and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols suc=
h
> as COAP.
> >
> > NEW:
> > The initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between the
> client and the authorization server, taking advantage of optimization
> features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and will strive to enable
> simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP when doing so does not
> conflict with the primary focus.
>
> I like this wording, thanks.
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Roman and Ben
> >
> > --
> > Txauth mailing list
> > Txauth@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 11:04, Justin =
Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Roman, than=
ks for the review. I=E2=80=99ll respond to the questions in line.<br>
<br>
&gt; On Jan 29, 2020, at 1:13 AM, Roman Danyliw &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdd@c=
ert.org" target=3D"_blank">rdd@cert.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi!<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; From: TxAuth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf of Justin Richer<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Sat, 18 January 2020 14:15 UTCShow<br>
&gt;&gt; To: IETF TxAuth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; [snip]<br>
&gt;&gt; I would really appreciate the security AD&#39;s weighing in at thi=
s stage. Thanks<br>
&gt;&gt; again everyone!<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The Sec ADs have reviewed the charter (as of v3.5) and at a high level=
 believe the scope could use a bit more precision.=C2=A0 If there was no pr=
ior work, the situation would be different.=C2=A0 However, in this case, re=
lationships with the existing OAuth WG needs to be navigated.=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
That makes a lot of senes, and I appreciate the drive to clarity.<br>
<br>
&gt; Topics that require discussion and clarity include:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ** is TxAuth intended to solve all existing OAuth use cases (i.e., is =
TxAuth is a superset of OAuth) in a new, non-backward compatible way?=C2=A0=
 If not all, which would not be addressed?<br>
<br>
Yes, it is my perspective that we would be working on a superset of OAuth u=
se cases. However, that does not mean that we would be replicated OAuth fun=
ctionality exactly =E2=80=94 there will be things that we solve in fairly d=
ifferent ways (like single-page apps, for example).<br>
<br>
If this were happening in the OAuth WG, this work would likely be called OA=
uth 3.0, and that might still be the final name at some point in the future=
. <br>
<br>
How would you recommend we communicate that in the charter? Should we expli=
citly call out coordination with OAuth WG?<br>
<br>
&gt; ** what new use cases would TxAuth address (that aren&#39;t in scope f=
or OAuth)?<br>
<br>
Identity is a big one, which is what OIDC currently layers on top of OAuth =
2. We=E2=80=99d also be looking at user-to-user delegation (the UMA and CIB=
A use cases). We=E2=80=99re also looking at cases that involve non-web inte=
raction with users (like the DID/VC work, or app-to-app communication on de=
vices). All of these are listed in the proposed text, do they need to be ca=
lled out as being beyond OAuth 2?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We ar=
e most interested in payments use cases. Specifically we find the use of OA=
uth 2.0 for delegated access to financial accounts very limited, forcing us=
 into using things like the &quot;Lodging Intents Pattern&quot;. I think To=
rsten has made the point well in his blogs on the topic (<a href=3D"https:/=
/medium.com/oauth-2/transaction-authorization-or-why-we-need-to-re-think-oa=
uth-scopes-2326e2038948">https://medium.com/oauth-2/transaction-authorizati=
on-or-why-we-need-to-re-think-oauth-scopes-2326e2038948</a>).</div><div><br=
></div><div>I believe this can be broadened to include any use case where t=
he authorization flow involves the user/RO giving consent to a client to pe=
rform a specific transaction (as opposed to simply get access to a resource=
 or API) and the need for the AS to have the details of this prior to autho=
rization so the details can be properly presented to the user.</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; ** given a new use case requirement for delegated authorization/identi=
ty, what would be the decision process to decide to which WG or WGs it woul=
d go?<br>
<br>
These are different protocols, so a large part of it would be what context =
is it being solved in? If =E2=80=9Cusing OAuth 2=E2=80=9D is a requirement,=
 which is going to be the case for a lot of people for a while yet, then th=
e OAuth WG would pick it up. That=E2=80=99s why we=E2=80=99re still doing P=
AR, JAR, RAR, and the like over there. If you don=E2=80=99t have to use OAu=
th 2 or OIDC as your base, or if you need behaviors that are outside the OA=
uth 2, then you direct the work here. <br>
<br>
Or you bring the use case to both spaces, and maybe there=E2=80=99s an OAut=
h 2 and a TxAuth version of what you=E2=80=99re after, and these solutions =
are coordinated as much as makes sense. <br>
<br>
What should the charter say to address this information routing question?<b=
r>
<br>
&gt; ** notional milestones (not the dates, but the deliverables)<br>
<br>
Is this a proposed document list? I had thought we=E2=80=99d already kinda =
covered this in the extant text, but I=E2=80=99m taking this comment that w=
e need something that=E2=80=99s more specific. <br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In the details of the text:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; (1) Distinguish what&#39;s new (instance #1):<br>
&gt; OLD:<br>
&gt; This group is chartered to develop a delegation protocol for authoriza=
tion, identity, and API access.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; NEW:<br>
&gt; This group is chartered to develop a fine-grained delegation protocol =
for authorization, identity, and API access.<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
That works for me.<br>
<br>
&gt; (2) Distinguish what&#39;s new (instance #2):<br>
&gt; OLD:<br>
&gt; The use cases supported by this protocol will include widely deployed =
use cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (an extension=
 of OAuth 2.0) as well as new use cases not enabled by OAuth 2.0.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; NEW:<br>
&gt; It will expand upon the uses cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 an=
d OpenID Connect (itself an extension of OAuth 2.0) to support authorizatio=
ns scoped as narrowly as a single transaction, provide a clear framework fo=
r interaction among all parties involved in the protocol flow, and remove u=
nnecessary dependence on a browser or user-agent for coordinating interacti=
ons.<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
I like this, thanks.<br>
<br>
&gt; (3) Style Nit:<br>
&gt; OLD:<br>
&gt; Web, mobile, single-page, interaction-constrained, and other types of =
client applications<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; NEW: <br>
&gt; A variety of client applications, including Web, mobile, single-page, =
and interaction-constrained applications<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
Works for me.<br>
<br>
&gt; (4) Per &quot;Token presentation mechanisms and key bindings&quot;, pe=
rhaps it might be clearer to say &quot;Mechanisms for presenting tokens to =
resource servers and binding resource requests to cryptographic keys=E2=80=
=9D<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
That works, though probably =E2=80=9Cbinding resource requests to tokens an=
d associated cryptographic keys&quot;<br>
<br>
&gt; (5) Per &quot;Mechanisms for providing user, software ...&quot;, perha=
ps it might be clearer to say &quot;Mechanism for conveying user, software =
=E2=80=A6&quot;<br>
<br>
Sounds good.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; (6) Per &quot;Optimization of information and API access beyond identi=
ty through the delegation process&quot;, is this suggesting the need for op=
timizing access to TxAuth information for use cases beyond identity? Or the=
 inclusion of information that isn&#39;t identity information into the dele=
gation process?=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
It=E2=80=99s the latter =E2=80=94 there=E2=80=99s been stated interest in i=
ncluding information beyond just an access token in the response. Identity =
is the first clear use case of this, but I think we can treat identity info=
rmation as a specific case of a more generic response.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; (7) Refine the protocol focus:<br>
&gt; OLD:<br>
&gt; While the initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication betw=
een the client and the authorization server, the working group will seek to=
 take advantage of optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible,=
 and will strive to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; NEW:<br>
&gt; The initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between th=
e client and the authorization server, taking advantage of optimization fea=
tures of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and will strive to enable simple m=
apping to other protocols such as COAP when doing so does not conflict with=
 the primary focus.<br>
<br>
I like this wording, thanks.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Roman and Ben<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; Txauth mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</=
a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br=
>
<br>
-- <br>
Txauth mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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To: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@hopebailie.com>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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> On Jan 29, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Adrian Hope-Bailie =
<adrian@hopebailie.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > ** what new use cases would TxAuth address (that aren't in scope for =
OAuth)?
>=20
> Identity is a big one, which is what OIDC currently layers on top of =
OAuth 2. We=E2=80=99d also be looking at user-to-user delegation (the =
UMA and CIBA use cases). We=E2=80=99re also looking at cases that =
involve non-web interaction with users (like the DID/VC work, or =
app-to-app communication on devices). All of these are listed in the =
proposed text, do they need to be called out as being beyond OAuth 2?
>=20
> We are most interested in payments use cases. Specifically we find the =
use of OAuth 2.0 for delegated access to financial accounts very =
limited, forcing us into using things like the "Lodging Intents =
Pattern". I think Torsten has made the point well in his blogs on the =
topic =
(https://medium.com/oauth-2/transaction-authorization-or-why-we-need-to-re=
-think-oauth-scopes-2326e2038948 =
<https://medium.com/oauth-2/transaction-authorization-or-why-we-need-to-re=
-think-oauth-scopes-2326e2038948>).
>=20
> I believe this can be broadened to include any use case where the =
authorization flow involves the user/RO giving consent to a client to =
perform a specific transaction (as opposed to simply get access to a =
resource or API) and the need for the AS to have the details of this =
prior to authorization so the details can be properly presented to the =
user.
> =20


Exactly =E2=80=94 because OAuth forces this information to go through =
the browser to get to the authorization page, it=E2=80=99s a bad fit for =
this type of use where you=E2=80=99re putting potentially sensitive =
information as inputs to the decision (which account to choose, for =
instance) that you don=E2=80=99t want leaked through the browser.=20

TxAuth is based on the lodging intent pattern from the start. PAR does a =
great job of back porting this functionality to OAuth 2, but there are =
limitations and awkwardness to this approach that TxAuth can avoid.


 =E2=80=94 Justin


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 29, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Adrian Hope-Bailie &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@hopebailie.com" =
class=3D"">adrian@hopebailie.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">
&gt; ** what new use cases would TxAuth address (that aren't in scope =
for OAuth)?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Identity is a big one, which is what OIDC currently layers on top of =
OAuth 2. We=E2=80=99d also be looking at user-to-user delegation (the =
UMA and CIBA use cases). We=E2=80=99re also looking at cases that =
involve non-web interaction with users (like the DID/VC work, or =
app-to-app communication on devices). All of these are listed in the =
proposed text, do they need to be called out as being beyond OAuth 2?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">We are most interested in payments use cases. Specifically we =
find the use of OAuth 2.0 for delegated access to financial accounts =
very limited, forcing us into using things like the "Lodging Intents =
Pattern". I think Torsten has made the point well in his blogs on the =
topic (<a =
href=3D"https://medium.com/oauth-2/transaction-authorization-or-why-we-nee=
d-to-re-think-oauth-scopes-2326e2038948" =
class=3D"">https://medium.com/oauth-2/transaction-authorization-or-why-we-=
need-to-re-think-oauth-scopes-2326e2038948</a>).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I believe this can be broadened to =
include any use case where the authorization flow involves the user/RO =
giving consent to a client to perform a specific transaction (as opposed =
to simply get access to a resource or API) and the need for the AS to =
have the details of this prior to authorization so the details can be =
properly presented to the user.</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Exactly =E2=80=94 =
because OAuth forces this information to go through the browser to get =
to the authorization page, it=E2=80=99s a bad fit for this type of use =
where you=E2=80=99re putting potentially sensitive information as inputs =
to the decision (which account to choose, for instance) that you don=E2=80=
=99t want leaked through the browser.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>TxAuth is based on the lodging intent pattern from =
the start. PAR does a great job of back porting this functionality to =
OAuth 2, but there are limitations and awkwardness to this approach that =
TxAuth can avoid.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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> Am 29.01.2020 um 09:41 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>:
>=20
> Much of OIDC=E2=80=99s complexity stems from it adding functionality to OA=
uth 2 or overcoming limitations in OAuth 2.

Mind to share examples?

I only see the hybrid response types. Anything else?=

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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Questions on the TxAuth charter
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I got a chance to chat with Mike and I wanted to expand my off-the-cuff =
response (below) with some more detail than I was able to write in the =
moment, because I don=E2=80=99t think that we=E2=80=99re actually that =
far apart.=20

To start, it wasn=E2=80=99t obvious to me (and might not have been to =
others) the specific precision of Mike=E2=80=99s statement below. He =
clarified to me that what he means is that where user claims are signed =
or encrypted, then JWT provides an obvious way to do it. In other words, =
=E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t re-invent the ID Token with new crypto=E2=80=9D. =
There are several things to address here with that in mind.

First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, cases =
where we need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the =
core transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be =
unsigned when it is retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the =
code flow. The equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be =
sending back user claims directly. We no longer have a need to protect =
things as they travel through the front channel on a redirect, and we no =
longer have a need to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for =
things like session management (we can define a new artifact for that =
purpose that fits better). This effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t =
need to redefine the ID Token because we don=E2=80=99t need the =
equivalent of the ID token in the same way. For the cases that we do =
need to define user claims, we should be defining them as a JSON object =
model. And I also believe that this JSON data model should not be =
intertwined with or constrained by the JWT claims registry. The OIDC =
claims registry can serve as influence and input to our user claims set =
if we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with =
that either.

Second, in spite of the success of OIDC, there are several formats out =
there for user claims beyond JWT and JOSE. Verifiable Credentials (VC, =
https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/) is one that has several different =
formats, and we are also seeing systems built up around COSE and CBOR =
(like IPLD, https://ipld.io/). Or you could even use a SAML document. I =
don=E2=80=99t think TxAuth should pick just one of these. Instead, I =
want TxAuth to define places to put these formats in requests and =
responses. In my draft there=E2=80=99s a spot for an OIDC style ID Token =
or a VC document, if you have one. Within each of these, by all means, =
let=E2=80=99s lock them down and say that the =E2=80=9Coidc_id_token=E2=80=
=9D field is a JWT in compact format that MUST be signed, etc. And I =
think it makes little sense to invent our own custom format to do =
exactly that kind of thing.=20

Third, I agree that we shouldn=E2=80=99t re-invent an existing crypto =
format, and I=E2=80=99ll go further that we shouldn=E2=80=99t be =
inventing crypto at all. This doesn=E2=80=99t mean we have to pick one =
and only one, because this is one of the spaces that we can (and I argue =
should) have some agility. We can define the protocol in terms of JSON =
and then have a suite of cryptographic carriers that protect that JSON, =
including JOSE, HTTP Message Signatures, and Mutual TLS. There are a =
bunch of others out there as well, like the DPoP key presentation coming =
out of OAuth 2 right now, that should be switchable as options here =
because they=E2=80=99re going to apply to different use cases and =
deployments. Plus, that JSON could be translated to CBOR (without data =
or structure loss) and protected by COSE =E2=80=94 even if we don=E2=80=99=
t define that ourselves, the fact that we=E2=80=99re building our =
structure on raw JSON means that it can be translated more easily later.

Fourth, I am very sensitive to calling out preferred crypto solutions =
because I believe that lends to us using that as an excuse to use that =
particular hammer to solve all the problems. There have been proposals =
to make the entire protocol JWTs in all directions, for instance, that I =
think are really problematic because of the limits that it places on =
expression of items outside of the payload itself. This is not what Mike =
is suggesting below, but it=E2=80=99s a potential fallout from what he =
does propose.



In conclusion, JOSE and JWT are fantastic and they solve a lot of =
problems in an elegant way. But I think we need to question whether we =
need their solutions at all, and where we do, if we want to enable other =
solutions as well. In my view, we don=E2=80=99t need JOSE/JWT because we =
avoid the problems that they solve, and the places that we do want to =
use them I strongly believe there are already other alternatives that we =
want to have as options.=20

So I want to have JOSE, but it needs to be in the right places and I do =
not want it to be a dependency on all implementations. I think that we =
can do that without saying JWT is a preferred format. I think it=E2=80=99s=
 more important that the charter incorporate specific text of what=E2=80=99=
s out of scope, including defining a cryptographic protection mechanism.=20=


One of the hardest things for a standard to do is determine where the =
flexibility should be. My stance is that we should have a structural =
format based on JSON but that the contents of that JSON are extensible =
but that each portion and extension are very strict about what=E2=80=99s =
there. Another key flexible point is that the content of the JSON-based =
payloads can be protected in a variety of ways. Choice can be =
debilitating, but it can also be freeing. Pinning everything to JOSE =
would do us a disservice.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 29, 2020, at 10:05 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> I strongly object to calling out JWTs as the preferred solution for =
signed and encrypted claims within this working group.
>=20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>> On Jan 29, 2020, at 9:50 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Thanks for writing these detailed questions, Kim.  I believe that =
they point out a number of places where even experts in the field, such =
as yourself, currently have trouble understanding parts of what the =
charter is proposing that we do =E2=80=93 partially because terminology =
is used that isn=E2=80=99t commonly understood.  I hope that the draft =
charter will be revised to make the intent and the goals more accessible =
and less ambiguous.
>> =20
>> Responding to the discussion on whether existing JWT identity claims =
will do the job or not, fortunately, even if they don=E2=80=99t, =
there=E2=80=99s a mechanism to add ones that do: the IANA JSON Web Token =
Claims registry at https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims =
<https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims>.  For instance, =
an =E2=80=9Cemail_addresses=E2=80=9D claim that is array-valued could be =
defined and registered if there=E2=80=99s a need to represent multiple =
e-mail addresses, per Annabelle=E2=80=99s example.  The further good =
news is that if the working group defines new claims that are =
registered, they can be reused by others also using JWTs =E2=80=93 just =
like this working group can reuse claims defined by others.
>> =20
>> Also on the subject of JWTs, I would suggest that the charter be =
updated to explicitly call out that JWTs will be the working group=E2=80=99=
s preferred representation signed and/or encrypted claims.
>> =20
>> Finally, I also think that the charter would benefit from explicitly =
listing things that are out of scope (which is often done in charters).
>> =20
>> Thanks again for prompting this useful discussion, Kim.
>> =20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>> =20
>> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Justin Richer
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 12:46 AM
>> To: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net =
<mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>>
>> Cc: Kim <kim@identityblog.com <mailto:kim@identityblog.com>>; Dick =
Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>; =
txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter
>> =20
>> I didn=E2=80=99t mean =E2=80=9Cpatch=E2=80=9D to sound disparaging, =
sorry if it came across as such. What I mean by =E2=80=9Cpatching=E2=80=9D=
 here is that it is adding functionality to an existing set of claims =
and schema. If you are using that schema as a base, it makes sense as a =
viable solution in that space. I, however, am bringing up the question =
of whether we are using that schema as our base at all.
>> =20
>> I=E2=80=99ll note that 8112 doesn=E2=80=99t define a schema or =
syntax, both of which are required. But if we were starting OIDC today =
with EKYC=E2=80=99s requirements, I=E2=80=99m not convinced we=E2=80=99d =
end up with the same structure.=20
>> =20
>> As with everything, it=E2=80=99s a very important input into what =
we=E2=80=99re trying to solve, especially influencing what=E2=80=99s =
extensible and how.
>> =20
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>> wrote:
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Am 29.01.2020 um 07:34 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>:
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BFI think the ekyc work is great for what it is, but again we =
have an opportunity to take a step beyond it. In my view, we=E2=80=99d =
be better off defining a means of specifying field metadata a la NIST IR =
8112 as part of the schema instead of patching the existing OIDC fields. =
https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/ =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fpages=
.nist.gov%2FNISTIR-8112%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%=
7C9fae503669f443a0968308d7a497c45f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%=
7C0%7C637158844049338344&sdata=3DrOrKaO7MvDDKLyfB2QivbVTcj5EmRSJ1nRXXs30jE=
z0%3D&reserved=3D0>
>> =20
>> We tried and it did not fulfill our requirements. verified_claims is =
by no means a patch, it=E2=80=99s a viable solution.
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:13 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>> wrote:
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>:
>>=20
>> The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verification =
occurred.
>> =20
>> Sure, they do. Look at the time and method fields.=20
>> =20
>> Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka verified_claims) is =
ongoing work feel free to contribute.
>> =20
>> https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/ =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fopeni=
d.net%2Fwg%2Fekyc-ida%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%7C=
9fae503669f443a0968308d7a497c45f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C=
0%7C637158844049338344&sdata=3Dpg8upwyN%2BXKeaFZaKEvR%2BTEPsKgjeJtdHwPM1fe=
%2Fxnc%3D&reserved=3D0>
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


--Apple-Mail=_DB236AF7-5E43-4A65-AA4C-DBF644E89944
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
got a chance to chat with Mike and I wanted to expand my off-the-cuff =
response (below) with some more detail than I was able to write in the =
moment, because I don=E2=80=99t think that we=E2=80=99re actually that =
far apart.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To =
start, it wasn=E2=80=99t obvious to me (and might not have been to =
others) the specific precision of Mike=E2=80=99s statement below. He =
clarified to me that what he means is that where user claims are signed =
or encrypted, then JWT provides an obvious way to do it. In other words, =
=E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t re-invent the ID Token with new crypto=E2=80=9D. =
There are several things to address here with that in mind.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">First, I don=E2=80=99t =
believe there are going to be many, if any, cases where we need user =
claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core transaction =
messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be unsigned when it =
is retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the code flow. The =
equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be sending back =
user claims directly. We no longer have a need to protect things as they =
travel through the front channel on a redirect, and we no longer have a =
need to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for things like =
session management (we can define a new artifact for that purpose that =
fits better). This effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t need to =
redefine the ID Token because we don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of =
the ID token in the same way. For the cases that we do need to define =
user claims, we should be defining them as a JSON object model. And I =
also believe that this JSON data model should not be intertwined with or =
constrained by the JWT claims registry. The OIDC claims registry can =
serve as influence and input to our user claims set if we choose, but I =
don=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with that either.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Second, in spite of the =
success of OIDC, there are several formats out there for user claims =
beyond JWT and JOSE. Verifiable Credentials (VC,&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/" =
class=3D"">https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/</a>) is one that has =
several different formats, and we are also seeing systems built up =
around COSE and CBOR (like IPLD, <a href=3D"https://ipld.io/" =
class=3D"">https://ipld.io/</a>). Or you could even use a SAML document. =
I don=E2=80=99t think TxAuth should pick just one of these. Instead, I =
want TxAuth to define places to put these formats in requests and =
responses. In my draft there=E2=80=99s a spot for an OIDC style ID Token =
or a VC document, if you have one. Within each of these, by all means, =
let=E2=80=99s lock them down and say that the =E2=80=9Coidc_id_token=E2=80=
=9D field is a JWT in compact format that MUST be signed, etc. And I =
think it makes little sense to invent our own custom format to do =
exactly that kind of thing.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Third, I agree that we shouldn=E2=80=99t =
re-invent an existing crypto format, and I=E2=80=99ll go further that we =
shouldn=E2=80=99t be inventing crypto at all. This doesn=E2=80=99t mean =
we have to pick one and only one, because this is one of the spaces that =
we can (and I argue should) have some agility. We can define the =
protocol in terms of JSON and then have a suite of cryptographic =
carriers that protect that JSON, including JOSE, HTTP Message =
Signatures, and Mutual TLS. There are a bunch of others out there as =
well, like the DPoP key presentation coming out of OAuth 2 right now, =
that should be switchable as options here because they=E2=80=99re going =
to apply to different use cases and deployments. Plus, that JSON could =
be translated to CBOR (without data or structure loss) and protected by =
COSE =E2=80=94 even if we don=E2=80=99t define that ourselves, the fact =
that we=E2=80=99re building our structure on raw JSON means that it can =
be translated more easily later.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Fourth, I am very sensitive to calling =
out preferred crypto solutions because I believe that lends to us using =
that as an excuse to use that particular hammer to solve all the =
problems. There have been proposals to make the entire protocol JWTs in =
all directions, for instance, that I think are really problematic =
because of the limits that it places on expression of items outside of =
the payload itself. This is not what Mike is suggesting below, but =
it=E2=80=99s a potential fallout from what he does propose.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In conclusion, JOSE and =
JWT are fantastic and they solve a lot of problems in an elegant way. =
But I think we need to question whether we need their solutions at all, =
and where we do, if we want to enable other solutions as well. In my =
view, we don=E2=80=99t need JOSE/JWT because we avoid the problems that =
they solve, and the places that we do want to use them I strongly =
believe there are already other alternatives that we want to have as =
options.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">So I want to have JOSE, but it needs to be in the right =
places and I do not want it to be a dependency on all implementations. I =
think that we can do that without saying JWT is a preferred format. I =
think it=E2=80=99s more important that the charter incorporate specific =
text of what=E2=80=99s out of scope, including defining a cryptographic =
protection mechanism.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">One of the hardest things for a standard to do is determine =
where the flexibility should be. My stance is that we should have a =
structural format based on JSON but that the contents of that JSON are =
extensible but that each portion and extension are very strict about =
what=E2=80=99s there. Another key flexible point is that the content of =
the JSON-based payloads can be protected in a variety of ways. Choice =
can be debilitating, but it can also be freeing. Pinning everything to =
JOSE would do us a disservice.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 29, 2020, at 10:05 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I strongly object to =
calling out JWTs as the preferred solution for signed and encrypted =
claims within this working group.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan =
29, 2020, at 9:50 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Thanks for writing these =
detailed questions, Kim.&nbsp; I believe that they point out a number of =
places where even experts in the field, such as yourself, currently have =
trouble understanding parts of what the charter is proposing that we do =
=E2=80=93 partially because terminology is used that isn=E2=80=99t =
commonly understood.&nbsp; I hope that the draft charter will be revised =
to make the intent and the goals more accessible and less ambiguous.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Responding =
to the discussion on whether existing JWT identity claims will do the =
job or not, fortunately, even if they don=E2=80=99t, there=E2=80=99s a =
mechanism to add ones that do: the IANA JSON Web Token Claims registry =
at<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims</a>.&nbsp=
; For instance, an =E2=80=9Cemail_addresses=E2=80=9D claim that is =
array-valued could be defined and registered if there=E2=80=99s a need =
to represent multiple e-mail addresses, per Annabelle=E2=80=99s =
example.&nbsp; The further good news is that if the working group =
defines new claims that are registered, they can be reused by others =
also using JWTs =E2=80=93 just like this working group can reuse claims =
defined by others.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Also on the =
subject of JWTs, I would suggest that the charter be updated to =
explicitly call out that JWTs will be the working group=E2=80=99s =
preferred representation signed and/or encrypted claims.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Finally, I =
also think that the charter would benefit from explicitly listing things =
that are out of scope (which is often done in charters).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Thanks =
again for prompting this useful discussion, Kim.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Txauth &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">txauth-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin =
Richer<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, January 29, 2020 =
12:46 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Kim &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">kim@identityblog.com</a>&gt;; =
Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color: =
blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[EXTERNAL] Re: [Txauth] =
Questions on the TxAuth charter<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I didn=E2=80=99t mean =E2=80=9Cpatch=E2=80=9D to sound =
disparaging, sorry if it came across as such. What I mean by =
=E2=80=9Cpatching=E2=80=9D here is that it is adding functionality to an =
existing set of claims and schema. If you are using that schema as a =
base, it makes sense as a viable solution in that space. I, however, am =
bringing up the question of whether we are using that schema as our base =
at all.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ll note that 8112 doesn=E2=80=99=
t define a schema or syntax, both of which are required. But if we were =
starting OIDC today with EKYC=E2=80=99s requirements, I=E2=80=99m not =
convinced we=E2=80=99d end up with the same structure.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">As with everything, it=E2=80=99s a very =
important input into what we=E2=80=99re trying to solve, especially =
influencing what=E2=80=99s extensible and how.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Am =
29.01.2020 um 07:34 schrieb Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFI think the ekyc work is great for what it is, but =
again we have an opportunity to take a step beyond it. In my view, =
we=E2=80=99d be better off defining a means of specifying field metadata =
a la NIST IR 8112 as part of the schema instead of patching the existing =
OIDC fields.&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Fpages.nist.gov%2FNISTIR-8112%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40mic=
rosoft.com%7C9fae503669f443a0968308d7a497c45f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd0=
11db47%7C1%7C0%7C637158844049338344&amp;sdata=3DrOrKaO7MvDDKLyfB2QivbVTcj5=
EmRSJ1nRXXs30jEz0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">We tried and it did not fulfill our requirements. =
verified_claims is by no means a patch, it=E2=80=99s a viable =
solution.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:13 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Am =
28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when =
verification occurred.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Sure, they do. Look at the =
time and method fields.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka =
verified_claims) is ongoing work feel free to contribute.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Fopenid.net%2Fwg%2Fekyc-ida%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40micro=
soft.com%7C9fae503669f443a0968308d7a497c45f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011=
db47%7C1%7C0%7C637158844049338344&amp;sdata=3Dpg8upwyN%2BXKeaFZaKEvR%2BTEP=
sKgjeJtdHwPM1fe%2Fxnc%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/</a></div></div></div></div></bl=
ockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div>-- <br class=3D"">Txauth mailing list<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_DB236AF7-5E43-4A65-AA4C-DBF644E89944--


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In-Reply-To: <7ED74044-CA39-437C-8844-1C16DB3B1EC7@lodderstedt.net>
From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 04:32:03 -0800
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter (Take 3.5)
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Let me know your thoughts after you have read it. :)

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:04 PM Torsten Lodderstedt <
torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote:

>
>
> Am 29.01.2020 um 07:01 schrieb Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>:
>
> =EF=BB=BF
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:09 PM Torsten Lodderstedt <
> torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > Am 29.01.2020 um 02:13 schrieb Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>:
>> >
>> > All identity claim use cases. A set of these are solved by OpenID
>> Connect, which is an extension to OAuth 2.0. TxAuth would also be a
>> superset of OpenID Connect in addition to OAuth.
>>
>> Don=E2=80=99t you think this would make TxAuth a bit complicated? What w=
ould be
>> the benefit?
>
>
> Not any more than today, as many consumer IdPs have both in the same
> flows, and that is what is in the proposed charter.
>
> Having the information all in one document would make it simpler to
> implement and understand.
>
>
> I doubt. If i calculate the size of all relevant oauth specs + all
> relevant openid connect specs (including verified claims), that will most
> likely be a multi 100 pages spec that few people will fully understand an=
d
> be able to review/contribute to and fully & correctly implement.
>
> Modularity and extensibility is key to success of this initiative.
>
> Did you have chance to look at XAuth Torsten?
>
>
> Not in detail.
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>

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<div><div dir=3D"auto">Let me know your thoughts after you have read it. :)=
</div></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:04 PM Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Am 29.01.2020 um 0=
7:01 schrieb Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></di=
v><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"=
>On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 9:09 PM Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
torsten@lodderstedt.net" target=3D"_blank">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
&gt; Am 29.01.2020 um 02:13 schrieb Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.h=
ardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; All identity claim use cases. A set of these are solved by OpenID Conn=
ect, which is an extension to OAuth 2.0. TxAuth would also be a superset of=
 OpenID Connect in addition to OAuth.<br>
<br>
Don=E2=80=99t you think this would make TxAuth a bit complicated? What woul=
d be the benefit?</blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Not any more than today, as many consumer IdPs have both in the same flows=
, and that is what is in the proposed charter.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div>Having the information all in one document would make it si=
mpler to implement and understand.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div>I doubt. If i calculate the size of all rel=
evant oauth specs + all relevant openid connect specs (including verified c=
laims), that will most likely be a multi 100 pages spec that few people wil=
l fully understand and be able to review/contribute to and fully &amp; corr=
ectly implement.<div><br></div><div>Modularity and extensibility is key to =
success of this initiative.<br><div><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Did you =
have chance to look at XAuth Torsten?</div></div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div>Not in detail.</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><div><div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"></blockquote></div></div>
</div>
<span>-- </span><br><span>Txauth mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a></span><br><span=
><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a></span><br></div></blockqu=
ote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>

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As Dick has mentioned, I gave him some early feedback on this draft =
before publication, and he=E2=80=99s asked me to write up my thoughts =
and responses on the current XAuth proposal that=E2=80=99s published =
here.

To disambiguate between different efforts, I=E2=80=99ll refer to =
Dick=E2=80=99s draft as XAuth, my own draft as XYZ, and the proposed =
working group work here (as in our eventual output) as TxAuth.=20

The short version is that I think that both XYZ and XAuth should be seen =
as inputs to TxAuth, but I prefer and recommend XYZ for a number of =
specific reasons and differences. I also do not see XAuth and XYZ as the =
same, as stated in a previous email on this thread.

I think XAuth has an interesting take on the problem space that TxAuth =
is looking to solve, but in my opinion it generally veers too closely to =
OAuth2/OIDC/JWT in its solution approach. It=E2=80=99s got some good =
ideas, though, and things that we should consider, as well as a lot of =
things that I don=E2=80=99t think are good ideas, or are regressions to =
old ideas that I specifically think we should move beyond.=20



I=E2=80=99ll start with things that I like and that we should look at:

1. XAuth returns a follow-up URL (actually two) with a transaction. This =
is something I considered with XYZ specifically to deal with revocation. =
This is something that I think is tractable if we do it right, and =
we=E2=80=99ll have to be careful about the privacy and security =
implications of this. Also, just like XYZ, calling this endpoint has to =
require the client to authenticate in the same way (ie, with the same =
key and method) that it used to start the request with.

2. XAuth has a separate request mechanism for user claims. I have been =
struggling with a way to have a request that results in an access token =
(the classical OAuth 2 model) and something that extends the request and =
response in a parallel way is a good thing. I like this more than what =
OIDC does, which is extend the =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D field.=20



But there are a lot more things that I think it doesn=E2=80=99t get =
quite right. These aren=E2=80=99t just syntactical or =
normative-reference issues, as I believe they speak to a very different =
underlying model and set of assumptions.=20

1. XAuth removes =E2=80=9Chandles=E2=80=9D as stand-ins for various =
elements. In XYZ, the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D concept is a key =
abstraction point with specific semantics. A =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D is =
an identifier to a specific instantiation of a JSON object structure. =
Using the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D for Keys, for Resources, and even the =
whole Transaction lets you do a lot of core things in a parallel and =
reusable way. XAuth re-invents a few of these as separate items, listed =
below, and I see this as a regression.

2. XAuth uses a Client ID from OAuth 2. I removed Client IDs from XYZ =
because I realized that you don=E2=80=99t need them anymore. The client =
ID tells the AS which client is talking in the front channel because the =
client can=E2=80=99t authenticate. In the back channel, the key (or =
secret) identifier is enough to identify the client =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99=
s the Key Handle in XYZ that can be passed in lieu of the key itself. =
The argument that it=E2=80=99s helpful to have an identifier for doing =
developer support and managing registrations is spurious, since this is =
an internal identifier that never needs to be exposed by the protocol. =
Additionally, a client ID assumes a registration-based model. There are =
ephemeral and per-device client instances like SPA=E2=80=99s and mobile =
apps that don=E2=80=99t really fit the client ID model very well. =
Pushing this requirement on all clients is bad, as we=E2=80=99ve seen in =
OAuth 1 and OAuth 2. XAuth tries to manage this by splitting clients =
into two camps, but I=E2=80=99m saying that no client needs and external =
client ID.

3. XAuth uses a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field for interaction. This means =
the client can only do one type of interaction for any given =
transaction. XYZ started like this, but we moved away from it because we =
realized we could have a client app that could handle multiple types =
without that kind of dispatch. In XYZ the client sends over flags for =
each kind of interaction it can do: send the user to an arbitrary URL, =
give the user a code, get a callback from a browser, etc. Combining =
these in specific ways addresses all of the different methods that XAuth =
identifies as its types while also allowing additional things. The AS =
picks from the client=E2=80=99s list based on what the AS can support as =
well as what makes sense for the policies governing the requested =
access.

4. XAuth allows OAuth-style scopes next to RAR-style data structures =
(and next to OIDC claims structures). They are treated as completely =
separate from each other. In OAuth 2, RAR is defined in the context of =
scope (and resource and audience and other parameters), and this =
combination is a matter of some debate still that needs to be solved. =
However, it=E2=80=99s clear that they=E2=80=99re combined. In XYZ, the =
only resource request defined is the object inside the resource request. =
You can mimic =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D behavior by using a Resource =
Handle, which again is defined as a single string that stands in for the =
whole object and could be defined by the AS (or the API it=E2=80=99s =
protecting).=20

5. The different kinds of authz requests in (4) create separate =
tokens.This is very different from both OAuth 2 and XYZ, where you get =
back a single access token. And in XAuth there is no way to get, for =
example, two access tokens that are both described by RAR requests, so =
this seems like a very arbitrary and syntactically-driven separation.=20

6. The assumption that JOSE will always be in the toolkit of the client =
developer is not true. You can do an XYZ transaction without any JOSE =
=E2=80=94 for example, using HTTP Sig or MTLS for key presentation.=20

7. The statement that =E2=80=9Cthere is no HTTP signing=E2=80=9D is =
false, as this is being brought up to the HTTP WG right now (I=E2=80=99m =
one of the co-authors). Yes, it=E2=80=99s not an RFC, but neither is =
this. And if we=E2=80=99re doing agile signature methods, which I =
contend is a required extension point, then we don=E2=80=99t have a =
dependency requirement for it.=20

8. XAuth adds back in an explicit =E2=80=9Crefresh token=E2=80=9D. In =
XYZ, we don=E2=80=99t have a refresh token because we can use the =
transaction handle to continue the transaction after a token has been =
issued. This has explicit and clear semantics that follows from what the =
transaction handle is used for elsewhere in the protocol =E2=80=94 =
continue this request that=E2=80=99s in some authorization state and =
give me the results.=20

9. XAuth uses OIDC=E2=80=99s ID Token. As I=E2=80=99ve said on the other =
thread, I don=E2=80=99t think we actually need a separately signed =
assertion. I=E2=80=99d rather see a way to sign the entire response =
which includes the user claims, if we want signature protection.

10. XAuth sends all the user=E2=80=99s claims on the login request =E2=80=94=
 or more precisely, this is the only mechanism specified and the =
Rationale section claims this is a feature. This violates minimal =
disclosure and privacy design guidelines, and this type of protocol has =
been developed before with OpenID 1.x/2.x and SAML. The problem here =
unfolds when you think about how it works: The RP needs to log in. If =
this is the first time it=E2=80=99s seen this user, then it needs the =
user=E2=80=99s profile info. If not, and the profile info hasn=E2=80=99t =
changed, there=E2=80=99s no need for it and the AS shouldn=E2=80=99t =
send it. So the RP can signal this, right? Except that the RP doesn=E2=80=99=
t know who the user is yet (that=E2=80=99s why they=E2=80=99re making =
this call!). Can the AS make this call? They won=E2=80=99t know if the =
RP has cached the user=E2=80=99s info or not. And if we=E2=80=99re using =
Client ID, then the AS can=E2=80=99t even be sure that this copy of the =
client is the same as another copy of the client. I think TxAuth needs =
to minimize the user claims sent back to being an identifier, =
information about the authentication event that could change each time =
anyway, and anything that would be needed to control a cache. Additional =
fields can be pulled from the equivalent of a UserInfo Endpoint in a =
two-stage process that both preserves privacy and optimizes for what=E2=80=
=99s available from each party.

11. XAuth defines an explicit discovery step because the client now =
needs to know several things about the server. The mix-up attack and a =
few other attacks in OAuth 2 stem from this kind of process. In XYZ, the =
client really only needs to know the transaction endpoint URL and it =
learns everything else from that point. Yes, the client needs to =
discover that someplace =E2=80=94 but it was a deliberate decision in =
limiting the amount of upfront information that the client needs to get =
started. I=E2=80=99ve played with the concept of a =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=
=80=9D list in XYZ, where the client would present a list of things it =
can do and the AS trims that list to what it can also do. This type of =
one-stage negotiation is really powerful and I think we can get a lot =
from it here.


All in all, thanks for the draft. I think it raises important questions =
and the discussion of these questions will help us build the best system =
we can.

 =E2=80=94 Justin


> On Jan 27, 2020, at 11:04 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hello!
>=20
> I riffed on Justin's draft and have created an alternative that has =
the same core concept of secure communication of all parameters between =
the Client and the AS.
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00>
>=20
> A goal of this document was to be as self contained as possible.
> Everything needed to implement is included if an implementor is are =
already familiar with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, and wants to migrate =
to XAuth.=20
>=20
> To meet that goal, JOSE was chosen as the default mechanism for the =
Client to authenticate to the AS, and to perform PoP access to a =
resource. The JOSE specific aspects are in one section, so that an =
extension can easily specify other Client authentication mechanisms.
>=20
> There are likely numerous editorial and syntactical errors, and as we =
all know -- naming is hard -- so feel free to suggest better names.
>=20
> There are lots of issues with normative language, many of which I am =
not aware of yet!
>=20
> I've revised the document a number of times, and may have old terms =
dangling around. Please let me know if there is something confusing, or =
contradictory!
>=20
> /Dick
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_885217E2-3882-4478-9E97-B2C9559C4FBD
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">As =
Dick has mentioned, I gave him some early feedback on this draft before =
publication, and he=E2=80=99s asked me to write up my thoughts and =
responses on the current XAuth proposal that=E2=80=99s published =
here.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To =
disambiguate between different efforts, I=E2=80=99ll refer to Dick=E2=80=99=
s draft as XAuth, my own draft as XYZ, and the proposed working group =
work here (as in our eventual output) as TxAuth.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The short version is =
that I think that both XYZ and XAuth should be seen as inputs to TxAuth, =
but I prefer and recommend XYZ for a number of specific reasons and =
differences. I also do not see XAuth and XYZ as the same, as stated in a =
previous email on this thread.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think XAuth has an interesting take =
on the problem space that TxAuth is looking to solve, but in my opinion =
it generally veers too closely to OAuth2/OIDC/JWT in its solution =
approach. It=E2=80=99s got some good ideas, though, and things that we =
should consider, as well as a lot of things that I don=E2=80=99t think =
are good ideas, or are regressions to old ideas that I specifically =
think we should move beyond.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ll start with things that I =
like and that we should look at:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. XAuth returns a follow-up URL =
(actually two) with a transaction. This is something I considered with =
XYZ specifically to deal with revocation. This is something that I think =
is tractable if we do it right, and we=E2=80=99ll have to be careful =
about the privacy and security implications of this. Also, just like =
XYZ, calling this endpoint has to require the client to authenticate in =
the same way (ie, with the same key and method) that it used to start =
the request with.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">2. XAuth has a separate request mechanism for user claims. I =
have been struggling with a way to have a request that results in an =
access token (the classical OAuth 2 model) and something that extends =
the request and response in a parallel way is a good thing. I like this =
more than what OIDC does, which is extend the =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D =
field.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But=
 there are a lot more things that I think it doesn=E2=80=99t get quite =
right. These aren=E2=80=99t just syntactical or normative-reference =
issues, as I believe they speak to a very different underlying model and =
set of assumptions.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">1. XAuth removes =E2=80=9Chandles=E2=80=9D as stand-ins for =
various elements. In XYZ, the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D concept is a key =
abstraction point with specific semantics. A =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D is =
an identifier to a specific instantiation of a JSON object structure. =
Using the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D for Keys, for Resources, and even the =
whole Transaction lets you do a lot of core things in a parallel and =
reusable way. XAuth re-invents a few of these as separate items, listed =
below, and I see this as a regression.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2. XAuth uses a Client ID from OAuth 2. =
I removed Client IDs from XYZ because I realized that you don=E2=80=99t =
need them anymore. The client ID tells the AS which client is talking in =
the front channel because the client can=E2=80=99t authenticate. In the =
back channel, the key (or secret) identifier is enough to identify the =
client =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s the Key Handle in XYZ that can be passed =
in lieu of the key itself. The argument that it=E2=80=99s helpful to =
have an identifier for doing developer support and managing =
registrations is spurious, since this is an internal identifier that =
never needs to be exposed by the protocol. Additionally, a client ID =
assumes a registration-based model. There are ephemeral and per-device =
client instances like SPA=E2=80=99s and mobile apps that don=E2=80=99t =
really fit the client ID model very well. Pushing this requirement on =
all clients is bad, as we=E2=80=99ve seen in OAuth 1 and OAuth 2. XAuth =
tries to manage this by splitting clients into two camps, but I=E2=80=99m =
saying that no client needs and external client ID.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">3. XAuth uses a =
=E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field for interaction. This means the client can =
only do one type of interaction for any given transaction. XYZ started =
like this, but we moved away from it because we realized we could have a =
client app that could handle multiple types without that kind of =
dispatch. In XYZ the client sends over flags for each kind of =
interaction it can do: send the user to an arbitrary URL, give the user =
a code, get a callback from a browser, etc. Combining these in specific =
ways addresses all of the different methods that XAuth identifies as its =
types while also allowing additional things. The AS picks from the =
client=E2=80=99s list based on what the AS can support as well as what =
makes sense for the policies governing the requested access.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">4. XAuth allows =
OAuth-style scopes next to RAR-style data structures (and next to OIDC =
claims structures). They are treated as completely separate from each =
other. In OAuth 2, RAR is defined in the context of scope (and resource =
and audience and other parameters), and this combination is a matter of =
some debate still that needs to be solved. However, it=E2=80=99s clear =
that they=E2=80=99re combined. In XYZ, the only resource request defined =
is the object inside the resource request. You can mimic =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=
=80=9D behavior by using a Resource Handle, which again is defined as a =
single string that stands in for the whole object and could be defined =
by the AS (or the API it=E2=80=99s protecting).&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">5. The different kinds =
of authz requests in (4) create separate tokens.This is very different =
from both OAuth 2 and XYZ, where you get back a single access token. And =
in XAuth there is no way to get, for example, two access tokens that are =
both described by RAR requests, so this seems like a very arbitrary and =
syntactically-driven separation.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">6. The assumption that JOSE will always =
be in the toolkit of the client developer is not true. You can do an XYZ =
transaction without any JOSE =E2=80=94 for example, using HTTP Sig or =
MTLS for key presentation.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">7. The statement that =E2=80=9Cthere is =
no HTTP signing=E2=80=9D is false, as this is being brought up to the =
HTTP WG right now (I=E2=80=99m one of the co-authors). Yes, it=E2=80=99s =
not an RFC, but neither is this. And if we=E2=80=99re doing agile =
signature methods, which I contend is a required extension point, then =
we don=E2=80=99t have a dependency requirement for it.&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div>8. XAuth adds back in an =
explicit =E2=80=9Crefresh token=E2=80=9D. In XYZ, we don=E2=80=99t have =
a refresh token because we can use the transaction handle to continue =
the transaction after a token has been issued. This has explicit and =
clear semantics that follows from what the transaction handle is used =
for elsewhere in the protocol =E2=80=94 continue this request that=E2=80=99=
s in some authorization state and give me the =
results.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>9. XAuth uses =
OIDC=E2=80=99s ID Token. As I=E2=80=99ve said on the other thread, I =
don=E2=80=99t think we actually need a separately signed assertion. =
I=E2=80=99d rather see a way to sign the entire response which includes =
the user claims, if we want signature protection.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>10. XAuth sends all the user=E2=80=99s claims on =
the login request =E2=80=94 or more precisely, this is the only =
mechanism specified and the Rationale section claims this is a feature. =
This violates minimal disclosure and privacy design guidelines, and this =
type of protocol has been developed before with OpenID 1.x/2.x and SAML. =
The problem here unfolds when you think about how it works: The RP needs =
to log in. If this is the first time it=E2=80=99s seen this user, then =
it needs the user=E2=80=99s profile info. If not, and the profile info =
hasn=E2=80=99t changed, there=E2=80=99s no need for it and the AS =
shouldn=E2=80=99t send it. So the RP can signal this, right? Except that =
the RP doesn=E2=80=99t know who the user is yet (that=E2=80=99s why =
they=E2=80=99re making this call!). Can the AS make this call? They =
won=E2=80=99t know if the RP has cached the user=E2=80=99s info or not. =
And if we=E2=80=99re using Client ID, then the AS can=E2=80=99t even be =
sure that this copy of the client is the same as another copy of the =
client. I think TxAuth needs to minimize the user claims sent back to =
being an identifier, information about the authentication event that =
could change each time anyway, and anything that would be needed to =
control a cache. Additional fields can be pulled from the equivalent of =
a UserInfo Endpoint in a two-stage process that both preserves privacy =
and optimizes for what=E2=80=99s available from each =
party.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>11. XAuth defines an explicit =
discovery step because the client now needs to know several things about =
the server. The mix-up attack and a few other attacks in OAuth 2 stem =
from this kind of process. In XYZ, the client really only needs to know =
the transaction endpoint URL and it learns everything else from that =
point. Yes, the client needs to discover that someplace =E2=80=94 but it =
was a deliberate decision in limiting the amount of upfront information =
that the client needs to get started. I=E2=80=99ve played with the =
concept of a =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D list in XYZ, where the =
client would present a list of things it can do and the AS trims that =
list to what it can also do. This type of one-stage negotiation is =
really powerful and I think we can get a lot from it here.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>All in all, thanks for =
the draft. I think it raises important questions and the discussion of =
these questions will help us build the best system we can.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 27, 2020, at 11:04 PM, Dick Hardt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Hello!<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">I riffed =
on Justin's draft and have created an alternative that has the same core =
concept of secure communication of all parameters between the Client and =
the AS.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00</a><b=
r class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A =
goal of this document was to be as self contained as possible.</div><div =
class=3D"">Everything needed to implement is included if an implementor =
is are already familiar with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, and wants to =
migrate to XAuth.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">To meet that goal, JOSE was chosen as the default mechanism =
for the Client to authenticate to the AS, and to perform PoP access to a =
resource. The JOSE specific aspects are in one section, so that an =
extension can easily specify other Client authentication =
mechanisms.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There are likely numerous editorial and syntactical errors, =
and as we all know -- naming is hard -- so feel free to suggest better =
names.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There =
are lots of issues with normative language, many of which I am not aware =
of yet!</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I've =
revised the document a number of times, and may have old terms dangling =
around. Please let&nbsp;me know if there is something confusing, or =
contradictory!</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">/Dick</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_885217E2-3882-4478-9E97-B2C9559C4FBD--


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To: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten=40lodderstedt.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter
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> Am 29.01.2020 um 19:49 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=3D40am=
azon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> I was referring to the email_verified and phone_number_verified claims def=
ined in OIDC Core. The mechanisms defined in IA don=E2=80=99t appear to appl=
y to those claims. Am I missing something?

Those claims pre-date OIDC4IDA. If they do not suite your needs, you may use=
 verified_claims to represent the verification status. It requires a trust f=
ramework id determining the trust framework governing the verification along=
 with identifiers for verification methods etc.

> =20
> (I do have some feedback regarding claims in IA=E2=80=A6getting on the IA w=
orking group list and providing it is on my far-too-long todo list=E2=80=A6)=


look forward to getting your feedback.

> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
> =20
> =20
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Torsten Lodderstedt <t=
orsten=3D40lodderstedt.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> Date: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 9:13 PM
> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> Cc: Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Justi=
n Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=3D40am=
azon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>:
>=20
> The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verification occu=
rred.
> =20
> Sure, they do. Look at the time and method fields.=20
> =20
> Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka verified_claims) is ongoi=
ng work feel free to contribute.
> =20
> https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I was referring to the email_verified and phone_numbe=
r_verified claims defined in OIDC Core. The mechanisms defined in IA don=E2=80=
=99t appear to apply to those claims. Am I missing something?</p></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div>Those claims pre-date OIDC4IDA. If they do not s=
uite your needs, you may use verified_claims to represent the verification s=
tatus. It requires a trust framework id determining the trust framework gove=
rning the verification along with identifiers for verification methods etc.<=
div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"WordSection=
1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(I do have some feedback regarding claims in IA=E2=80=
=A6getting on the IA working group list and providing it is on my far-too-lo=
ng todo list=E2=80=A6)</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>look forwa=
rd to getting your feedback.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=E2=80=93&nbsp;<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Annabelle Richard Ba=
ckman<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">AWS Identity<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:=
 </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Txauth &lt;txauth-b=
ounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;torsten=3D40lodders=
tedt.net@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 9:13 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ie=
tf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Kim &lt;kim@identityblog.com&gt;, "txauth@ietf.org" &lt;txauth@ie=
tf.org&gt;, Justin Richer &lt;jricher@mit.edu&gt;, Dick Hardt &lt;dick.hardt=
@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00=
 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg&gt;:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or w=
hen verification occurred.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sure, they do. Look at the time and method fields.&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka veri=
fied_claims) is ongoing work feel free to contribute.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/">https://o=
penid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>


</div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten=40lodderstedt.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>,  Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [EXTERNAL] Re: Questions on the TxAuth charter
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I agree with Justin that we choose JSON for the messages, but that we have
flexibility in how to secure the messages, and flexibility in the claim
formats that can be requested and returned. In contrast, we don't want to
dictate JOSE for messages or JWT for claims.

Justin gave me the feedback in earlier drafts of XAuth, and I (hopefully)
factored out the JOSE aspects so that HTTP signing, MTLS, or something else
could be used.

I disagree with Justin's first point about the need for signed claims. I'll
start another thread for that, as it is not relevant to this thread's
charter discussion.

/Dick



On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> I got a chance to chat with Mike and I wanted to expand my off-the-cuff
> response (below) with some more detail than I was able to write in the
> moment, because I don=E2=80=99t think that we=E2=80=99re actually that fa=
r apart.
>
> To start, it wasn=E2=80=99t obvious to me (and might not have been to oth=
ers) the
> specific precision of Mike=E2=80=99s statement below. He clarified to me =
that what
> he means is that where user claims are signed or encrypted, then JWT
> provides an obvious way to do it. In other words, =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t =
re-invent the ID
> Token with new crypto=E2=80=9D. There are several things to address here =
with that
> in mind.
>
> First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, cases =
where we
> need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core
> transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be unsigne=
d
> when it is retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the code flow=
.
> The equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be sending bac=
k
> user claims directly. We no longer have a need to protect things as they
> travel through the front channel on a redirect, and we no longer have a
> need to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for things like sess=
ion
> management (we can define a new artifact for that purpose that fits
> better). This effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t need to redefine th=
e ID Token
> because we don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of the ID token in the same =
way. For
> the cases that we do need to define user claims, we should be defining th=
em
> as a JSON object model. And I also believe that this JSON data model shou=
ld
> not be intertwined with or constrained by the JWT claims registry. The OI=
DC
> claims registry can serve as influence and input to our user claims set i=
f
> we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with that e=
ither.
>
> Second, in spite of the success of OIDC, there are several formats out
> there for user claims beyond JWT and JOSE. Verifiable Credentials (VC,
> https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/) is one that has several different
> formats, and we are also seeing systems built up around COSE and CBOR (li=
ke
> IPLD, https://ipld.io/). Or you could even use a SAML document. I don=E2=
=80=99t
> think TxAuth should pick just one of these. Instead, I want TxAuth to
> define places to put these formats in requests and responses. In my draft
> there=E2=80=99s a spot for an OIDC style ID Token or a VC document, if yo=
u have
> one. Within each of these, by all means, let=E2=80=99s lock them down and=
 say that
> the =E2=80=9Coidc_id_token=E2=80=9D field is a JWT in compact format that=
 MUST be signed,
> etc. And I think it makes little sense to invent our own custom format to
> do exactly that kind of thing.
>
> Third, I agree that we shouldn=E2=80=99t re-invent an existing crypto for=
mat, and
> I=E2=80=99ll go further that we shouldn=E2=80=99t be inventing crypto at =
all. This doesn=E2=80=99t
> mean we have to pick one and only one, because this is one of the spaces
> that we can (and I argue should) have some agility. We can define the
> protocol in terms of JSON and then have a suite of cryptographic carriers
> that protect that JSON, including JOSE, HTTP Message Signatures, and Mutu=
al
> TLS. There are a bunch of others out there as well, like the DPoP key
> presentation coming out of OAuth 2 right now, that should be switchable a=
s
> options here because they=E2=80=99re going to apply to different use case=
s and
> deployments. Plus, that JSON could be translated to CBOR (without data or
> structure loss) and protected by COSE =E2=80=94 even if we don=E2=80=99t =
define that
> ourselves, the fact that we=E2=80=99re building our structure on raw JSON=
 means
> that it can be translated more easily later.
>
> Fourth, I am very sensitive to calling out preferred crypto solutions
> because I believe that lends to us using that as an excuse to use that
> particular hammer to solve all the problems. There have been proposals to
> make the entire protocol JWTs in all directions, for instance, that I thi=
nk
> are really problematic because of the limits that it places on expression
> of items outside of the payload itself. This is not what Mike is suggesti=
ng
> below, but it=E2=80=99s a potential fallout from what he does propose.
>
>
>
> In conclusion, JOSE and JWT are fantastic and they solve a lot of problem=
s
> in an elegant way. But I think we need to question whether we need their
> solutions at all, and where we do, if we want to enable other solutions a=
s
> well. In my view, we don=E2=80=99t need JOSE/JWT because we avoid the pro=
blems that
> they solve, and the places that we do want to use them I strongly believe
> there are already other alternatives that we want to have as options.
>
> So I want to have JOSE, but it needs to be in the right places and I do
> not want it to be a dependency on all implementations. I think that we ca=
n
> do that without saying JWT is a preferred format. I think it=E2=80=99s mo=
re
> important that the charter incorporate specific text of what=E2=80=99s ou=
t of
> scope, including defining a cryptographic protection mechanism.
>
> One of the hardest things for a standard to do is determine where the
> flexibility should be. My stance is that we should have a structural form=
at
> based on JSON but that the contents of that JSON are extensible but that
> each portion and extension are very strict about what=E2=80=99s there. An=
other key
> flexible point is that the content of the JSON-based payloads can be
> protected in a variety of ways. Choice can be debilitating, but it can al=
so
> be freeing. Pinning everything to JOSE would do us a disservice.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Jan 29, 2020, at 10:05 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> I strongly object to calling out JWTs as the preferred solution for signe=
d
> and encrypted claims within this working group.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Jan 29, 2020, at 9:50 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks for writing these detailed questions, Kim.  I believe that they
> point out a number of places where even experts in the field, such as
> yourself, currently have trouble understanding parts of what the charter =
is
> proposing that we do =E2=80=93 partially because terminology is used that=
 isn=E2=80=99t
> commonly understood.  I hope that the draft charter will be revised to ma=
ke
> the intent and the goals more accessible and less ambiguous.
>
> Responding to the discussion on whether existing JWT identity claims will
> do the job or not, fortunately, even if they don=E2=80=99t, there=E2=80=
=99s a mechanism to
> add ones that do: the IANA JSON Web Token Claims registry at
> https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims.  For instance, an
> =E2=80=9Cemail_addresses=E2=80=9D claim that is array-valued could be def=
ined and
> registered if there=E2=80=99s a need to represent multiple e-mail address=
es, per
> Annabelle=E2=80=99s example.  The further good news is that if the workin=
g group
> defines new claims that are registered, they can be reused by others also
> using JWTs =E2=80=93 just like this working group can reuse claims define=
d by
> others.
>
> Also on the subject of JWTs, I would suggest that the charter be updated
> to explicitly call out that JWTs will be the working group=E2=80=99s pref=
erred
> representation signed and/or encrypted claims.
>
> Finally, I also think that the charter would benefit from explicitly
> listing things that are out of scope (which is often done in charters).
>
> Thanks again for prompting this useful discussion, Kim.
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
> *From:* Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Justin Richer
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2020 12:46 AM
> *To:* Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>
> *Cc:* Kim <kim@identityblog.com>; Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>;
> txauth@ietf.org; Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter
>
> I didn=E2=80=99t mean =E2=80=9Cpatch=E2=80=9D to sound disparaging, sorry=
 if it came across as
> such. What I mean by =E2=80=9Cpatching=E2=80=9D here is that it is adding=
 functionality to
> an existing set of claims and schema. If you are using that schema as a
> base, it makes sense as a viable solution in that space. I, however, am
> bringing up the question of whether we are using that schema as our base =
at
> all.
>
> I=E2=80=99ll note that 8112 doesn=E2=80=99t define a schema or syntax, bo=
th of which are
> required. But if we were starting OIDC today with EKYC=E2=80=99s requirem=
ents, I=E2=80=99m
> not convinced we=E2=80=99d end up with the same structure.
>
> As with everything, it=E2=80=99s a very important input into what we=E2=
=80=99re trying to
> solve, especially influencing what=E2=80=99s extensible and how.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
> On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net=
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Am 29.01.2020 um 07:34 schrieb Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>:
>
> =EF=BB=BFI think the ekyc work is great for what it is, but again we have=
 an
> opportunity to take a step beyond it. In my view, we=E2=80=99d be better =
off
> defining a means of specifying field metadata a la NIST IR 8112 as part o=
f
> the schema instead of patching the existing OIDC fields.
> https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fpage=
s.nist.gov%2FNISTIR-8112%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%=
7C9fae503669f443a0968308d7a497c45f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7=
C0%7C637158844049338344&sdata=3DrOrKaO7MvDDKLyfB2QivbVTcj5EmRSJ1nRXXs30jEz0=
%3D&reserved=3D0>
>
>
> We tried and it did not fulfill our requirements. verified_claims is by n=
o
> means a patch, it=E2=80=99s a viable solution.
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
> On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:13 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net=
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>:
>
> The ..._verified claims don=E2=80=99t define how or when verification occ=
urred.
>
>
> Sure, they do. Look at the time and method fields.
>
> Since OpenId Connect for Identity Assurance (aka verified_claims) is
> ongoing work feel free to contribute.
>
> https://openid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fopen=
id.net%2Fwg%2Fekyc-ida%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%7C=
9fae503669f443a0968308d7a497c45f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0=
%7C637158844049338344&sdata=3Dpg8upwyN%2BXKeaFZaKEvR%2BTEPsKgjeJtdHwPM1fe%2=
Fxnc%3D&reserved=3D0>
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I agree with Justin that we choose JSON for the messages, =
but that we have flexibility in how to secure the messages, and flexibility=
 in the claim formats that can be requested and returned. In contrast, we d=
on&#39;t want to dictate JOSE for messages or JWT for claims.<div><br></div=
><div>Justin gave me the feedback in earlier drafts of XAuth, and I (hopefu=
lly) factored out the JOSE aspects so that HTTP signing, MTLS, or something=
 else could be used.</div><div><br></div><div>I disagree=C2=A0with Justin&#=
39;s first point about the need for signed claims. I&#39;ll start another t=
hread for that, as it is not relevant=C2=A0to this thread&#39;s charter dis=
cussion.</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick<br><div><br></div><div><br></div></=
div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_at=
tr">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri=
cher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">I go=
t a chance to chat with Mike and I wanted to expand my off-the-cuff respons=
e (below) with some more detail than I was able to write in the moment, bec=
ause I don=E2=80=99t think that we=E2=80=99re actually that far apart.=C2=
=A0<div><br></div><div>To start, it wasn=E2=80=99t obvious to me (and might=
 not have been to others) the specific precision of Mike=E2=80=99s statemen=
t below. He clarified to me that what he means is that where user claims ar=
e signed or encrypted, then JWT provides an obvious way to do it. In other =
words, =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t re-invent the ID Token with new crypto=E2=80=
=9D. There are several things to address here with that in mind.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, i=
f any, cases where we need user claims to be signed and encrypted separatel=
y from the core transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed=
 to be unsigned when it is retrieved from the token endpoint directly using=
 the code flow. The equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would =
be sending back user claims directly. We no longer have a need to protect t=
hings as they travel through the front channel on a redirect, and we no lon=
ger have a need to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for things =
like session management (we can define a new artifact for that purpose that=
 fits better). This effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t need to redefin=
e the ID Token because we don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of the ID token=
 in the same way. For the cases that we do need to define user claims, we s=
hould be defining them as a JSON object model. And I also believe that this=
 JSON data model should not be intertwined with or constrained by the JWT c=
laims registry. The OIDC claims registry can serve as influence and input t=
o our user claims set if we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be =
intertwined with that either.</div><div><br></div><div>Second, in spite of =
the success of OIDC, there are several formats out there for user claims be=
yond JWT and JOSE. Verifiable Credentials (VC,=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.=
w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/" target=3D"_blank">https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-m=
odel/</a>) is one that has several different formats, and we are also seein=
g systems built up around COSE and CBOR (like IPLD, <a href=3D"https://ipld=
.io/" target=3D"_blank">https://ipld.io/</a>). Or you could even use a SAML=
 document. I don=E2=80=99t think TxAuth should pick just one of these. Inst=
ead, I want TxAuth to define places to put these formats in requests and re=
sponses. In my draft there=E2=80=99s a spot for an OIDC style ID Token or a=
 VC document, if you have one. Within each of these, by all means, let=E2=
=80=99s lock them down and say that the =E2=80=9Coidc_id_token=E2=80=9D fie=
ld is a JWT in compact format that MUST be signed, etc. And I think it make=
s little sense to invent our own custom format to do exactly that kind of t=
hing.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Third, I agree that we shouldn=E2=80=
=99t re-invent an existing crypto format, and I=E2=80=99ll go further that =
we shouldn=E2=80=99t be inventing crypto at all. This doesn=E2=80=99t mean =
we have to pick one and only one, because this is one of the spaces that we=
 can (and I argue should) have some agility. We can define the protocol in =
terms of JSON and then have a suite of cryptographic carriers that protect =
that JSON, including JOSE, HTTP Message Signatures, and Mutual TLS. There a=
re a bunch of others out there as well, like the DPoP key presentation comi=
ng out of OAuth 2 right now, that should be switchable as options here beca=
use they=E2=80=99re going to apply to different use cases and deployments. =
Plus, that JSON could be translated to CBOR (without data or structure loss=
) and protected by COSE =E2=80=94 even if we don=E2=80=99t define that ours=
elves, the fact that we=E2=80=99re building our structure on raw JSON means=
 that it can be translated more easily later.</div><div><br></div><div>Four=
th, I am very sensitive to calling out preferred crypto solutions because I=
 believe that lends to us using that as an excuse to use that particular ha=
mmer to solve all the problems. There have been proposals to make the entir=
e protocol JWTs in all directions, for instance, that I think are really pr=
oblematic because of the limits that it places on expression of items outsi=
de of the payload itself. This is not what Mike is suggesting below, but it=
=E2=80=99s a potential fallout from what he does propose.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>In conclusion, JOSE and JWT are fanta=
stic and they solve a lot of problems in an elegant way. But I think we nee=
d to question whether we need their solutions at all, and where we do, if w=
e want to enable other solutions as well. In my view, we don=E2=80=99t need=
 JOSE/JWT because we avoid the problems that they solve, and the places tha=
t we do want to use them I strongly believe there are already other alterna=
tives that we want to have as options.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>So I =
want to have JOSE, but it needs to be in the right places and I do not want=
 it to be a dependency on all implementations. I think that we can do that =
without saying JWT is a preferred format. I think it=E2=80=99s more importa=
nt that the charter incorporate specific text of what=E2=80=99s out of scop=
e, including defining a cryptographic protection mechanism.=C2=A0</div><div=
><br></div><div>One of the hardest things for a standard to do is determine=
 where the flexibility should be. My stance is that we should have a struct=
ural format based on JSON but that the contents of that JSON are extensible=
 but that each portion and extension are very strict about what=E2=80=99s t=
here. Another key flexible point is that the content of the JSON-based payl=
oads can be protected in a variety of ways. Choice can be debilitating, but=
 it can also be freeing. Pinning everything to JOSE would do us a disservic=
e.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div><div><br=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 29, 2020, at 10:05 AM, Justin Richer=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</=
a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div>
<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">I strongly object to calling out =
JWTs as the preferred solution for signed and encrypted claims within this =
working group.<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<br><div><br><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 29, 2020, at 9:50 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@mi=
crosoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:nor=
mal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:n=
one;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Thanks for writing these detailed questions=
, Kim.=C2=A0 I believe that they point out a number of places where even ex=
perts in the field, such as yourself, currently have trouble understanding =
parts of what the charter is proposing that we do =E2=80=93 partially becau=
se terminology is used that isn=E2=80=99t commonly understood.=C2=A0 I hope=
 that the draft charter will be revised to make the intent and the goals mo=
re accessible and less ambiguous.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Responding to the discussion on whether =
existing JWT identity claims will do the job or not, fortunately, even if t=
hey don=E2=80=99t, there=E2=80=99s a mechanism to add ones that do: the IAN=
A JSON Web Token Claims registry at<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://ww=
w.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims" style=3D"color:blue;text-decor=
ation:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt=
.xhtml#claims</a>.=C2=A0 For instance, an =E2=80=9Cemail_addresses=E2=80=9D=
 claim that is array-valued could be defined and registered if there=E2=80=
=99s a need to represent multiple e-mail addresses, per Annabelle=E2=80=99s=
 example.=C2=A0 The further good news is that if the working group defines =
new claims that are registered, they can be reused by others also using JWT=
s =E2=80=93 just like this working group can reuse claims defined by others=
.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"=
>Also on the subject of JWTs, I would suggest that the charter be updated t=
o explicitly call out that JWTs will be the working group=E2=80=99s preferr=
ed representation signed and/or encrypted claims.<u></u><u></u></span></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Finally, I also think that=
 the charter would benefit from explicitly listing things that are out of s=
cope (which is often done in charters).<u></u><u></u></span></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Thanks again for prompting this usef=
ul discussion, Kim.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></span><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></div><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1p=
t;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:=
</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Txauth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org=
" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">txauth-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span>=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf Of<span>=C2=A0</span=
></b>Justin Richer<br><b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Wednesday, January 29,=
 2020 12:46 AM<br><b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:=
underline" target=3D"_blank">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><=
span>=C2=A0</span>Kim &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" style=3D"=
color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">kim@identityblog.co=
m</a>&gt;; Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"=
color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;;<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" style=3D"co=
lor:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>; =
Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dm=
arc.ietf.org" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bla=
nk">richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span>=
=C2=A0</span>[EXTERNAL] Re: [Txauth] Questions on the TxAuth charter<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I di=
dn=E2=80=99t mean =E2=80=9Cpatch=E2=80=9D to sound disparaging, sorry if it=
 came across as such. What I mean by =E2=80=9Cpatching=E2=80=9D here is tha=
t it is adding functionality to an existing set of claims and schema. If yo=
u are using that schema as a base, it makes sense as a viable solution in t=
hat space. I, however, am bringing up the question of whether we are using =
that schema as our base at all.<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99ll note that 8112 doesn=
=E2=80=99t define a schema or syntax, both of which are required. But if we=
 were starting OIDC today with EKYC=E2=80=99s requirements, I=E2=80=99m not=
 convinced we=E2=80=99d end up with the same structure.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
As with everything, it=E2=80=99s a very important input into what we=E2=80=
=99re trying to solve, especially influencing what=E2=80=99s extensible and=
 how.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin=
-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Torsten Loddersted=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" style=3D"color:blue;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br><u></u=
><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">Am 29.01.2020 um 07:34 schrieb Justin Richer &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" =
target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;:<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></=
div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=EF=BB=BFI think the ekyc work is great for what it is, but again we have a=
n opportunity to take a step beyond it. In my view, we=E2=80=99d be better =
off defining a means of specifying field metadata a la NIST IR 8112 as part=
 of the schema instead of patching the existing OIDC fields.=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fpag=
es.nist.gov%2FNISTIR-8112%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft=
.com%7C9fae503669f443a0968308d7a497c45f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%=
7C1%7C0%7C637158844049338344&amp;sdata=3DrOrKaO7MvDDKLyfB2QivbVTcj5EmRSJ1nR=
XXs30jEz0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank">https://pages.nist.gov/NISTIR-8112/</a><u></u><u></u><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">We tried and it did not fulfill our requirements. verified_claims is =
by no means a patch, it=E2=80=99s a viable solution.<u></u><u></u></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt=
;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b=
r><u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt=
"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:13 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br><u></u><u></u></d=
iv><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">Am 28.01.2020 um 18:00 schrieb Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color:blue;tex=
t-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">richanna=3D40amazon.com@dmarc.iet=
f.org</a>&gt;:<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style=3D"mar=
gin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The ..._verified claims don=
=E2=80=99t define how or when verification occurred.<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv></blockquote><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sure, th=
ey do. Look at the time and method fields.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since OpenId C=
onnect for Identity Assurance (aka verified_claims) is ongoing work feel fr=
ee to contribute.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection=
.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fopenid.net%2Fwg%2Fekyc-ida%2F&amp;data=3D=
02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%7C9fae503669f443a0968308d7a497c45f%=
7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637158844049338344&amp;sdata=
=3Dpg8upwyN%2BXKeaFZaKEvR%2BTEPsKgjeJtdHwPM1fe%2Fxnc%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" s=
tyle=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://ope=
nid.net/wg/ekyc-ida/</a></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></=
div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></blockquote></div><br></div></div>-- <br>Txauth mailing list<br><a href=
=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br><a hre=
f=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br>=
</div></div></blockquote></div>

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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:14:43 -0800
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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>,  Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: [Txauth] The need for signed claims - providence
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Forking the discussion to focus on signed claims

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
<snip>

> First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, cases =
where we
> need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core
> transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be unsigne=
d
> when it is retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the code flow=
.
> The equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be sending bac=
k
> user claims directly. We no longer have a need to protect things as they
> travel through the front channel on a redirect, and we no longer have a
> need to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for things like sess=
ion
> management (we can define a new artifact for that purpose that fits
> better). This effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t need to redefine th=
e ID Token
> because we don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of the ID token in the same =
way. For
> the cases that we do need to define user claims, we should be defining th=
em
> as a JSON object model. And I also believe that this JSON data model shou=
ld
> not be intertwined with or constrained by the JWT claims registry. The OI=
DC
> claims registry can serve as influence and input to our user claims set i=
f
> we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with that e=
ither.
>

I disagree. I think it is likely that we will see an increase in signed
claims and messages.

In my opinion, the providence of a claim or message is far more important
than protection during transit.

*Client / AS non-repudiation*: when sensitive operations are performed
relying on the contents of a claim, the Client will want repudiation that
the AS or claims issuer made a claim.

*Separation of duties in complex systems*: In large organizations, a major
security threat is a malicious insider. Once an organization reaches a
certain size, you assume there are people employed at the company that do
not have the firms best interests in mind. One mitigation of this threat is
done by separating what different teams can do with customer / sensitive
data, requiring collusion to access or modify the data. Signed messages and
claims simplify different components being able to independently verify a
message or claim. Similarly, a component issuing a claim, has assurance
that other components in the same system are not modifying it. Large
organizations wrap external systems that do not support this with their own
security mechanism -- but not all organizations are this sophisticated, and
as they grow, retrofitting is difficult. Enabling end to end providence is
a best practice in my opinion.

*User Consent Audit*: as privacy becomes a larger public topic, it is easy
to imagine organizations wanting to prove that they obtained user
information with consent. Rather than gathering user information directly
from the user, a Client can acquire claims from the User's claims provider
that asserts the user provided consent to the Client. The Client can then
technically establish that all user data was gathered with consent, and the
context of the consent.

While the message containing the claims may be signed, having independent
claims separately signed simplifies the least privilege tenet, where a
component only has access to the user information it needs.

/Dick

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Forking the discussion to focus on signed claims</div=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On We=
d, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.=
edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_at=
tr">&lt;snip&gt;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div>First, I don=E2=80=99t believe =
there are going to be many, if any, cases where we need user claims to be s=
igned and encrypted separately from the core transaction messages. Even in =
OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be unsigned when it is retrieved from the =
token endpoint directly using the code flow. The equivalent of this is the =
only place that TxAuth would be sending back user claims directly. We no lo=
nger have a need to protect things as they travel through the front channel=
 on a redirect, and we no longer have a need to use the user=E2=80=99s clai=
ms as an artifact for things like session management (we can define a new a=
rtifact for that purpose that fits better). This effectively means that we =
don=E2=80=99t need to redefine the ID Token because we don=E2=80=99t need t=
he equivalent of the ID token in the same way. For the cases that we do nee=
d to define user claims, we should be defining them as a JSON object model.=
 And I also believe that this JSON data model should not be intertwined wit=
h or constrained by the JWT claims registry. The OIDC claims registry can s=
erve as influence and input to our user claims set if we choose, but I don=
=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with that either.</div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>I disagree. I think it is likely that we will =
see an increase in signed claims and messages.</div><div><br></div><div>In =
my opinion, the providence of a claim or message is far more important than=
 protection during transit.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><b>Client / AS n=
on-repudiation</b>: when sensitive operations are performed relying on the =
contents of a claim, the Client will want repudiation that the AS or claims=
 issuer made a claim.</div><div><br></div><div><b>Separation of duties in c=
omplex systems</b>: In large organizations, a major security threat is a ma=
licious insider. Once an organization reaches a certain size, you assume th=
ere are people employed at the company that do not have the firms best inte=
rests in mind. One mitigation of this threat is done by separating what dif=
ferent teams can do with customer / sensitive data, requiring collusion to =
access or modify the data. Signed messages and claims simplify different co=
mponents being able to independently verify a message or claim. Similarly, =
a component issuing a claim, has assurance that other components in the sam=
e system are not modifying it. Large organizations wrap external systems th=
at do not support this with their own security mechanism -- but not all org=
anizations are this sophisticated, and as they grow, retrofitting is diffic=
ult. Enabling end to end providence is a best practice in my opinion.</div>=
<div><br></div><div><b>User Consent Audit</b>: as privacy becomes a larger =
public topic, it is easy to imagine organizations wanting to prove that the=
y obtained user information with consent. Rather than gathering user inform=
ation directly from the user, a Client can acquire claims from the User&#39=
;s claims provider that asserts the user provided consent to the Client. Th=
e Client can then technically establish that all user data was gathered wit=
h consent, and the context of the consent.</div><div><br></div><div>While t=
he message containing the claims may be signed, having independent claims s=
eparately signed simplifies the least privilege tenet, where a component on=
ly has access to the user information it needs.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br><=
/div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div>

--000000000000e1cf11059d4dd5e9--


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:15:34 -0800
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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>,  Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] The need for signed claims - providence
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I forgot to include the reference to Annabelle calling this out earlier

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w


On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:14 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Forking the discussion to focus on signed claims
>
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, cases=
 where we
>> need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core
>> transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be unsign=
ed
>> when it is retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the code flo=
w.
>> The equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be sending ba=
ck
>> user claims directly. We no longer have a need to protect things as they
>> travel through the front channel on a redirect, and we no longer have a
>> need to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for things like ses=
sion
>> management (we can define a new artifact for that purpose that fits
>> better). This effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t need to redefine t=
he ID Token
>> because we don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of the ID token in the same=
 way. For
>> the cases that we do need to define user claims, we should be defining t=
hem
>> as a JSON object model. And I also believe that this JSON data model sho=
uld
>> not be intertwined with or constrained by the JWT claims registry. The O=
IDC
>> claims registry can serve as influence and input to our user claims set =
if
>> we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with that =
either.
>>
>
> I disagree. I think it is likely that we will see an increase in signed
> claims and messages.
>
> In my opinion, the providence of a claim or message is far more important
> than protection during transit.
>
> *Client / AS non-repudiation*: when sensitive operations are performed
> relying on the contents of a claim, the Client will want repudiation that
> the AS or claims issuer made a claim.
>
> *Separation of duties in complex systems*: In large organizations, a
> major security threat is a malicious insider. Once an organization reache=
s
> a certain size, you assume there are people employed at the company that =
do
> not have the firms best interests in mind. One mitigation of this threat =
is
> done by separating what different teams can do with customer / sensitive
> data, requiring collusion to access or modify the data. Signed messages a=
nd
> claims simplify different components being able to independently verify a
> message or claim. Similarly, a component issuing a claim, has assurance
> that other components in the same system are not modifying it. Large
> organizations wrap external systems that do not support this with their o=
wn
> security mechanism -- but not all organizations are this sophisticated, a=
nd
> as they grow, retrofitting is difficult. Enabling end to end providence i=
s
> a best practice in my opinion.
>
> *User Consent Audit*: as privacy becomes a larger public topic, it is
> easy to imagine organizations wanting to prove that they obtained user
> information with consent. Rather than gathering user information directly
> from the user, a Client can acquire claims from the User's claims provide=
r
> that asserts the user provided consent to the Client. The Client can then
> technically establish that all user data was gathered with consent, and t=
he
> context of the consent.
>
> While the message containing the claims may be signed, having independent
> claims separately signed simplifies the least privilege tenet, where a
> component only has access to the user information it needs.
>
> /Dick
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">I forgot to include the reference to Anna=
belle calling this out earlier<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://mailar=
chive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w">https://mailarc=
hive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w</a><br></div><div=
><br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas=
s=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:14 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Fork=
ing the discussion to focus on signed claims</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM=
 Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jri=
cher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">&lt;=
snip&gt;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div>F=
irst, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, cases whe=
re we need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core =
transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be unsigned =
when it is retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the code flow. =
The equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be sending back =
user claims directly. We no longer have a need to protect things as they tr=
avel through the front channel on a redirect, and we no longer have a need =
to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for things like session man=
agement (we can define a new artifact for that purpose that fits better). T=
his effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t need to redefine the ID Token b=
ecause we don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of the ID token in the same way=
. For the cases that we do need to define user claims, we should be definin=
g them as a JSON object model. And I also believe that this JSON data model=
 should not be intertwined with or constrained by the JWT claims registry. =
The OIDC claims registry can serve as influence and input to our user claim=
s set if we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with=
 that either.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I disagree. I thi=
nk it is likely that we will see an increase in signed claims and messages.=
</div><div><br></div><div>In my opinion, the providence of a claim or messa=
ge is far more important than protection during transit.=C2=A0</div><div><b=
r></div><div><b>Client / AS non-repudiation</b>: when sensitive operations =
are performed relying on the contents of a claim, the Client will want repu=
diation that the AS or claims issuer made a claim.</div><div><br></div><div=
><b>Separation of duties in complex systems</b>: In large organizations, a =
major security threat is a malicious insider. Once an organization reaches =
a certain size, you assume there are people employed at the company that do=
 not have the firms best interests in mind. One mitigation of this threat i=
s done by separating what different teams can do with customer / sensitive =
data, requiring collusion to access or modify the data. Signed messages and=
 claims simplify different components being able to independently verify a =
message or claim. Similarly, a component issuing a claim, has assurance tha=
t other components in the same system are not modifying it. Large organizat=
ions wrap external systems that do not support this with their own security=
 mechanism -- but not all organizations are this sophisticated, and as they=
 grow, retrofitting is difficult. Enabling end to end providence is a best =
practice in my opinion.</div><div><br></div><div><b>User Consent Audit</b>:=
 as privacy becomes a larger public topic, it is easy to imagine organizati=
ons wanting to prove that they obtained user information with consent. Rath=
er than gathering user information directly from the user, a Client can acq=
uire claims from the User&#39;s claims provider that asserts the user provi=
ded consent to the Client. The Client can then technically establish that a=
ll user data was gathered with consent, and the context of the consent.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>While the message containing the claims may be signed=
, having independent claims separately signed simplifies the least privileg=
e tenet, where a component only has access to the user information it needs=
.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div><div><br><=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

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On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:26 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> As Dick has mentioned, I gave him some early feedback on this draft befor=
e
> publication, and he=E2=80=99s asked me to write up my thoughts and respon=
ses on the
> current XAuth proposal that=E2=80=99s published here.
>

Thanks again for that feedback Justin. I was hoping to see your responses
before you posted so that I could clarify misconceptions, but I'll do that
now on the list. =3D)

Thanks for writing this up -- I believe it helps us identify the areas for
deeper discussion to reach rough consensus!


>
> To disambiguate between different efforts, I=E2=80=99ll refer to Dick=E2=
=80=99s draft as
> XAuth, my own draft as XYZ, and the proposed working group work here (as =
in
> our eventual output) as TxAuth.
>
> <snip>

>
> I think XAuth has an interesting take on the problem space that TxAuth is
> looking to solve, but in my opinion it generally veers too closely to
> OAuth2/OIDC/JWT in its solution approach.
>

Reusing aspects of OAuth2/OIDC/JWT that are working fine for deployments
will minimize the migration effort for them to take advantage of the
security features of this work such as not using the redirect for passing
parameters. I think XAuth supports the following clause of the current
draft charter: "the group will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0
and OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible."

<snip>


> 1. XAuth removes =E2=80=9Chandles=E2=80=9D as stand-ins for various eleme=
nts. In XYZ, the
> =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D concept is a key abstraction point with specific=
 semantics. A
> =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D is an identifier to a specific instantiation of =
a JSON object
> structure. Using the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D for Keys, for Resources, an=
d even the whole
> Transaction lets you do a lot of core things in a parallel and reusable
> way. XAuth re-invents a few of these as separate items, listed below, and=
 I
> see this as a regression.
>

XAuth took the transaction handle and forked it into a completion handle
and a refresh handle so that it is clear what the Client is wanting to
happen.

It was not clear the value of the other handles that were listed in XYZ.


>
> 2. XAuth uses a Client ID from OAuth 2. I removed Client IDs from XYZ
> because I realized that you don=E2=80=99t need them anymore. The client I=
D tells
> the AS which client is talking in the front channel because the client
> can=E2=80=99t authenticate. In the back channel, the key (or secret) iden=
tifier is
> enough to identify the client =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s the Key Handle in =
XYZ that can be
> passed in lieu of the key itself. The argument that it=E2=80=99s helpful =
to have an
> identifier for doing developer support and managing registrations is
> spurious, since this is an internal identifier that never needs to be
> exposed by the protocol. Additionally, a client ID assumes a
> registration-based model. There are ephemeral and per-device client
> instances like SPA=E2=80=99s and mobile apps that don=E2=80=99t really fi=
t the client ID
> model very well. Pushing this requirement on all clients is bad, as we=E2=
=80=99ve
> seen in OAuth 1 and OAuth 2. XAuth tries to manage this by splitting
> clients into two camps, but I=E2=80=99m saying that no client needs and e=
xternal
> client ID.
>

I addressed this in
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12 # 7

 7.   *Why is there still a Client ID?  Could we not use a fingerprint
        of the public key to identify the Client?*

        Some AS deployments do not allow calls from Registered Clients,
        and provide different functionality to different Clients.  A
        permanent identifier for the Client is needed for the Client
        developer and the AS admin to ensure they are referring to the
        same Client.  The Client ID was used in OAuth 2.0, and it served
        the same purpose


Perhaps you did not see that?

I agree that dynamic client IDs in OAuth 2 were problematic. In XAuth, a
Dynamic Client is identified by its key.

Would you clarify what is broken with Client IDs for Registered Clients? It
seems to working fine for registered clients in OAuth 2 / OpenID Connect,
and migrating those deployments will be simpler if we keep the same concept=
.

The key handle seems problematic as it will change when keys are rotated.


>
> 3. XAuth uses a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field for interaction. This means =
the client can
> only do one type of interaction for any given transaction. XYZ started li=
ke
> this, but we moved away from it because we realized we could have a clien=
t
> app that could handle multiple types without that kind of dispatch. In XY=
Z
> the client sends over flags for each kind of interaction it can do: send
> the user to an arbitrary URL, give the user a code, get a callback from a
> browser, etc. Combining these in specific ways addresses all of the
> different methods that XAuth identifies as its types while also allowing
> additional things. The AS picks from the client=E2=80=99s list based on w=
hat the AS
> can support as well as what makes sense for the policies governing the
> requested access.
>

Do you have a use case where the AS will want to pick from a list, rather
than supporting the one that the Client wants to use?

In the case where the AS interacts with an RO that is not the User, there
would be nothing the Client would need to do. Perhaps there is a use case
for something different? If so, please elaborate.


>
> 4. XAuth allows OAuth-style scopes next to RAR-style data structures (and
> next to OIDC claims structures). They are treated as completely separate
> from each other. In OAuth 2, RAR is defined in the context of scope (and
> resource and audience and other parameters), and this combination is a
> matter of some debate still that needs to be solved. However, it=E2=80=99=
s clear
> that they=E2=80=99re combined. In XYZ, the only resource request defined =
is the
> object inside the resource request. You can mimic =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D=
 behavior by using
> a Resource Handle, which again is defined as a single string that stands =
in
> for the whole object and could be defined by the AS (or the API it=E2=80=
=99s
> protecting).
>

I think you need to reread the 00 draft. Only one type of authorization
request is allowed.

- OAuth style for deployments where that works fine.
- RAR style for deployments that need the extra granularity of RAR
- list of RAR style for deployments that support multiple resource servers
that require independent access tokens.


>
> 5. The different kinds of authz requests in (4) create separate
> tokens.This is very different from both OAuth 2 and XYZ, where you get ba=
ck
> a single access token. And in XAuth there is no way to get, for example,
> two access tokens that are both described by RAR requests, so this seems
> like a very arbitrary and syntactically-driven separation.
>

I don't think you understood what is in the draft. See above.


>
> 6. The assumption that JOSE will always be in the toolkit of the client
> developer is not true. You can do an XYZ transaction without any JOSE =E2=
=80=94 for
> example, using HTTP Sig or MTLS for key presentation.
>

Per earlier feedback from you, I have strived to separate JOSE out into
Section 8, so that an extension could use HTTP signing or MTLS. Let me know
where JOSE is still an assumption.


>
> 7. The statement that =E2=80=9Cthere is no HTTP signing=E2=80=9D is false=
, as this is
> being brought up to the HTTP WG right now (I=E2=80=99m one of the co-auth=
ors). Yes,
> it=E2=80=99s not an RFC, but neither is this. And if we=E2=80=99re doing =
agile signature
> methods, which I contend is a required extension point, then we don=E2=80=
=99t have
> a dependency requirement for it.
>

XAuth says from
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12 # 3

There is currently no widely deployed open standard for HTTP signing.


Yes, there is working going on. But security it is not a published RFC,
there are no libraries for it, and it has not been tested on the open
internet.

While I wish the HTTP WG luck in this work, and I support it happening, it
will be hard.

OAuth 1.0 core issue was that it was signing a request (in my opinion)

The widely deployed HTTP Signing is AWS SIGv4 -- which AWS supplies
libraries for every API in all popular languages so that developers don't
have to do the HTTP signing themselves.

I could imagine AWS adopting XAuth and using SIGv4 instead of JOSE if they
wanted.



> 8. XAuth adds back in an explicit =E2=80=9Crefresh token=E2=80=9D. In XYZ=
, we don=E2=80=99t have a
> refresh token because we can use the transaction handle to continue the
> transaction after a token has been issued. This has explicit and clear
> semantics that follows from what the transaction handle is used for
> elsewhere in the protocol =E2=80=94 continue this request that=E2=80=99s =
in some
> authorization state and give me the results.
>

I think we agree that refresh is a required feature.

I think a transaction handle is to course grained. I don't think that the
AS should be returning all the claims in a refresh. And if there are
multiple access tokens returned from the AS, then each has their own
refresh handle.


>
> 9. XAuth uses OIDC=E2=80=99s ID Token. As I=E2=80=99ve said on the other =
thread, I don=E2=80=99t
> think we actually need a separately signed assertion. I=E2=80=99d rather =
see a way
> to sign the entire response which includes the user claims, if we want
> signature protection.
>

I responded in a separate thread.


>
> 10. XAuth sends all the user=E2=80=99s claims on the login request =E2=80=
=94 or more
> precisely, this is the only mechanism specified and the Rationale section
> claims this is a feature. This violates minimal disclosure and privacy
> design guidelines, and this type of protocol has been developed before wi=
th
> OpenID 1.x/2.x and SAML. The problem here unfolds when you think about ho=
w
> it works: The RP needs to log in. If this is the first time it=E2=80=99s =
seen this
> user, then it needs the user=E2=80=99s profile info. If not, and the prof=
ile info
> hasn=E2=80=99t changed, there=E2=80=99s no need for it and the AS shouldn=
=E2=80=99t send it. So the
> RP can signal this, right? Except that the RP doesn=E2=80=99t know who th=
e user is
> yet (that=E2=80=99s why they=E2=80=99re making this call!). Can the AS ma=
ke this call? They
> won=E2=80=99t know if the RP has cached the user=E2=80=99s info or not. A=
nd if we=E2=80=99re using
> Client ID, then the AS can=E2=80=99t even be sure that this copy of the c=
lient is
> the same as another copy of the client. I think TxAuth needs to minimize
> the user claims sent back to being an identifier, information about the
> authentication event that could change each time anyway, and anything tha=
t
> would be needed to control a cache. Additional fields can be pulled from
> the equivalent of a UserInfo Endpoint in a two-stage process that both
> preserves privacy and optimizes for what=E2=80=99s available from each pa=
rty.
>

Not clear how XYZ improves on this.

The UserInfo Endpoint solves the Client getting more info than it needs,
but the User still needs to give consent each time unless the AS tracks it.
So it is unclear to me what value the UserInfo Endpoint brings.

Your comments have inspired me on a solution that can be done with XAuth
(or XYZ) that can't be done with OAuth 2.0/OIDC.

I'll add that to the XAuth draft and publish it.


>
> 11. XAuth defines an explicit discovery step because the client now needs
> to know several things about the server. The mix-up attack and a few othe=
r
> attacks in OAuth 2 stem from this kind of process. In XYZ, the client
> really only needs to know the transaction endpoint URL and it learns
> everything else from that point. Yes, the client needs to discover that
> someplace =E2=80=94 but it was a deliberate decision in limiting the amou=
nt of
> upfront information that the client needs to get started.
>

That is still discovery, is it not?

Would the Client not need to know the message signing methods supported?
JOSE, HTTP Signing, and/or MTLS?


> I=E2=80=99ve played with the concept of a =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D =
list in XYZ, where the
> client would present a list of things it can do and the AS trims that lis=
t
> to what it can also do.
>

So ... programatic discovery? =3D)

Are you suggesting that discovery of everything but the endpoint has to be
programatic?


> This type of one-stage negotiation is really powerful and I think we can
> get a lot from it here.
>

Sure ... but for many people what works today is documentation that someone
reads to understand what to do. Are you suggesting we not enable that?


>
>
> All in all, thanks for the draft. I think it raises important questions
> and the discussion of these questions will help us build the best system =
we
> can.
>

Thanks again for writing up your feedback!

/Dick

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:2=
6 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank"=
>jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div>As Dick has mentioned, I gave him some early feedback =
on this draft before publication, and he=E2=80=99s asked me to write up my =
thoughts and responses on the current XAuth proposal that=E2=80=99s publish=
ed here.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks again for that feedba=
ck Justin. I was hoping to see your responses before you posted so that I c=
ould clarify misconceptions, but I&#39;ll do that now on the list. =3D)</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Thanks for writing this up -- I believe it helps us i=
dentify the areas for deeper discussion to reach rough consensus!</div><div=
>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><b=
r></div><div>To disambiguate between different efforts, I=E2=80=99ll refer =
to Dick=E2=80=99s draft as XAuth, my own draft as XYZ, and the proposed wor=
king group work here (as in our eventual output) as TxAuth.=C2=A0</div><div=
><br></div></div></blockquote><div>&lt;snip&gt;</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div></div><div><div><br></div><div>I thin=
k XAuth has an interesting take on the problem space that TxAuth is looking=
 to solve, but in my opinion it generally veers too closely to OAuth2/OIDC/=
JWT in its solution approach. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>Reusing aspects of OAuth2/OIDC/JWT that are working fine for deployme=
nts will minimize the migration effort for them to take advantage of the se=
curity features of this work such as not using the redirect for passing par=
ameters. I think XAuth supports the following clause of the current draft c=
harter: &quot;the group will=C2=A0attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.=
0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible.&quot;</div><div><b=
r></div><div>&lt;snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div></div><div>1. XAuth removes =E2=80=9C=
handles=E2=80=9D as stand-ins for various elements. In XYZ, the =E2=80=9Cha=
ndle=E2=80=9D concept is a key abstraction point with specific semantics. A=
 =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D is an identifier to a specific instantiation of a=
 JSON object structure. Using the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D for Keys, for Re=
sources, and even the whole Transaction lets you do a lot of core things in=
 a parallel and reusable way. XAuth re-invents a few of these as separate i=
tems, listed below, and I see this as a regression.</div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>XAuth took the transaction handle and forked it =
into a completion handle and a refresh handle so that it is clear what the =
Client is wanting to happen.</div><div><br></div><div>It was not clear the =
value of the other handles that were listed in XYZ.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br><=
/div><div>2. XAuth uses a Client ID from OAuth 2. I removed Client IDs from=
 XYZ because I realized that you don=E2=80=99t need them anymore. The clien=
t ID tells the AS which client is talking in the front channel because the =
client can=E2=80=99t authenticate. In the back channel, the key (or secret)=
 identifier is enough to identify the client =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s the K=
ey Handle in XYZ that can be passed in lieu of the key itself. The argument=
 that it=E2=80=99s helpful to have an identifier for doing developer suppor=
t and managing registrations is spurious, since this is an internal identif=
ier that never needs to be exposed by the protocol. Additionally, a client =
ID assumes a registration-based model. There are ephemeral and per-device c=
lient instances like SPA=E2=80=99s and mobile apps that don=E2=80=99t reall=
y fit the client ID model very well. Pushing this requirement on all client=
s is bad, as we=E2=80=99ve seen in OAuth 1 and OAuth 2. XAuth tries to mana=
ge this by splitting clients into two camps, but I=E2=80=99m saying that no=
 client needs and external client ID.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>I addressed this in=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra=
ft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12</a>=C2=A0# 7</div><div><br></div><div=
><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;m=
argin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> 7.   *Why is there st=
ill a Client ID?  Could we not use a fingerprint
        of the public key to identify the Client?*

        Some AS deployments do not allow calls from Registered Clients,
        and provide different functionality to different Clients.  A
        permanent identifier for the Client is needed for the Client
        developer and the AS admin to ensure they are referring to the
        same Client.  The Client ID was used in OAuth 2.0, and it served
        the same purpose</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-si=
ze:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0=
,0,0)"><br></pre></div><div>Perhaps you did not see that?</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>I agree that dynamic client IDs in OAuth 2 were problematic. In XAu=
th, a Dynamic Client is identified by its key.</div><div><br></div><div>Wou=
ld you clarify what is broken with Client IDs for Registered Clients? It se=
ems to working fine for registered clients in OAuth 2 / OpenID Connect, and=
 migrating those deployments will be simpler if we keep the same concept.</=
div><div><br></div><div>The key handle seems problematic as it will change =
when keys are rotated.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><div>3. XAuth uses a =E2=
=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field for interaction. This means the client can only d=
o one type of interaction for any given transaction. XYZ started like this,=
 but we moved away from it because we realized we could have a client app t=
hat could handle multiple types without that kind of dispatch. In XYZ the c=
lient sends over flags for each kind of interaction it can do: send the use=
r to an arbitrary URL, give the user a code, get a callback from a browser,=
 etc. Combining these in specific ways addresses all of the different metho=
ds that XAuth identifies as its types while also allowing additional things=
. The AS picks from the client=E2=80=99s list based on what the AS can supp=
ort as well as what makes sense for the policies governing the requested ac=
cess.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Do you have a use c=
ase where the AS will want to pick from a list, rather than supporting the =
one that the Client wants to use?</div><div><br></div><div>In the case wher=
e the AS interacts with an RO that is not the User, there would be nothing =
the Client would need to do. Perhaps there is a use case for something diff=
erent? If so, please elaborate.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><div>4. XAuth all=
ows OAuth-style scopes next to RAR-style data structures (and next to OIDC =
claims structures). They are treated as completely separate from each other=
. In OAuth 2, RAR is defined in the context of scope (and resource and audi=
ence and other parameters), and this combination is a matter of some debate=
 still that needs to be solved. However, it=E2=80=99s clear that they=E2=80=
=99re combined. In XYZ, the only resource request defined is the object ins=
ide the resource request. You can mimic =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D behavior by=
 using a Resource Handle, which again is defined as a single string that st=
ands in for the whole object and could be defined by the AS (or the API it=
=E2=80=99s protecting).=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>I think you need to reread the 00 draft. Only one type of authorizatio=
n request is allowed.</div><div><br></div><div>- OAuth style for deployment=
s where that works fine.</div><div>- RAR style for deployments that need th=
e extra granularity of RAR</div><div>- list of RAR style for deployments th=
at support multiple resource servers that require independent access tokens=
.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x"><div><div><div><br></div><div>5. The different kinds of authz requests i=
n (4) create separate tokens.This is very different from both OAuth 2 and X=
YZ, where you get back a single access token. And in XAuth there is no way =
to get, for example, two access tokens that are both described by RAR reque=
sts, so this seems like a very arbitrary and syntactically-driven separatio=
n.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t thin=
k you understood what is in the draft. See above.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><di=
v>6. The assumption that JOSE will always be in the toolkit of the client d=
eveloper is not true. You can do an XYZ transaction without any JOSE =E2=80=
=94 for example, using HTTP Sig or MTLS for key presentation.=C2=A0</div></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Per earlier feedback from you, I=
 have strived to separate JOSE out into Section 8, so that an extension cou=
ld use HTTP signing or MTLS. Let me know where JOSE is still an assumption.=
</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv><div><div><br></div><div>7. The statement that =E2=80=9Cthere is no HTTP=
 signing=E2=80=9D is false, as this is being brought up to the HTTP WG righ=
t now (I=E2=80=99m one of the co-authors). Yes, it=E2=80=99s not an RFC, bu=
t neither is this. And if we=E2=80=99re doing agile signature methods, whic=
h I contend is a required extension point, then we don=E2=80=99t have a dep=
endency requirement for it.=C2=A0<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>XAuth says from=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-h=
ardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12</a>=C2=A0# 3</div><div><br></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margi=
n-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">There is currently no wide=
ly deployed open standard for HTTP signing.  </pre></div><div>=C2=A0</div><=
div>Yes, there is working going on. But security it is not a published RFC,=
 there are no libraries for it, and it has not been tested on the open inte=
rnet.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>While I wish the HTTP WG luck in this =
work, and I support it happening, it will be hard.</div><div><br></div><div=
>OAuth 1.0 core issue was that it was signing a request (in my opinion)</di=
v><div><br></div><div>The widely deployed HTTP Signing is AWS SIGv4 -- whic=
h AWS supplies libraries for every API in all popular languages so that dev=
elopers don&#39;t have to do the HTTP signing themselves.=C2=A0</div><div><=
br></div><div>I could imagine AWS adopting XAuth and using SIGv4 instead of=
 JOSE if they wanted.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div><br></div><div>8. XAut=
h adds back in an explicit =E2=80=9Crefresh token=E2=80=9D. In XYZ, we don=
=E2=80=99t have a refresh token because we can use the transaction handle t=
o continue the transaction after a token has been issued. This has explicit=
 and clear semantics that follows from what the transaction handle is used =
for elsewhere in the protocol =E2=80=94 continue this request that=E2=80=99=
s in some authorization state and give me the results.=C2=A0</div></div></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think we agree that refresh is =
a required feature.</div><div><br></div><div>I think a transaction handle i=
s to course grained. I don&#39;t think that the AS should be returning all =
the claims in a refresh. And if there are multiple access tokens returned f=
rom the AS, then each has their own refresh handle.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div><br></=
div><div>9. XAuth uses OIDC=E2=80=99s ID Token. As I=E2=80=99ve said on the=
 other thread, I don=E2=80=99t think we actually need a separately signed a=
ssertion. I=E2=80=99d rather see a way to sign the entire response which in=
cludes the user claims, if we want signature protection.</div></div></div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I responded in a separate thread.</di=
v><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><=
div><div><div><br></div><div>10. XAuth sends all the user=E2=80=99s claims =
on the login request =E2=80=94 or more precisely, this is the only mechanis=
m specified and the Rationale section claims this is a feature. This violat=
es minimal disclosure and privacy design guidelines, and this type of proto=
col has been developed before with OpenID 1.x/2.x and SAML. The problem her=
e unfolds when you think about how it works: The RP needs to log in. If thi=
s is the first time it=E2=80=99s seen this user, then it needs the user=E2=
=80=99s profile info. If not, and the profile info hasn=E2=80=99t changed, =
there=E2=80=99s no need for it and the AS shouldn=E2=80=99t send it. So the=
 RP can signal this, right? Except that the RP doesn=E2=80=99t know who the=
 user is yet (that=E2=80=99s why they=E2=80=99re making this call!). Can th=
e AS make this call? They won=E2=80=99t know if the RP has cached the user=
=E2=80=99s info or not. And if we=E2=80=99re using Client ID, then the AS c=
an=E2=80=99t even be sure that this copy of the client is the same as anoth=
er copy of the client. I think TxAuth needs to minimize the user claims sen=
t back to being an identifier, information about the authentication event t=
hat could change each time anyway, and anything that would be needed to con=
trol a cache. Additional fields can be pulled from the equivalent of a User=
Info Endpoint in a two-stage process that both preserves privacy and optimi=
zes for what=E2=80=99s available from each party.</div></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not clear how XYZ improves on this.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>The UserInfo Endpoint solves the Client getting more info =
than it needs, but the User still needs to give consent each time unless th=
e AS tracks it. So it is unclear to me what value the UserInfo Endpoint bri=
ngs.</div><div><br></div><div>Your comments have inspired me on a solution =
that can be done with XAuth (or XYZ) that can&#39;t be done with OAuth 2.0/=
OIDC.</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ll add that to the XAuth draft and pub=
lish it.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div><br></div><div>11. XAuth defines an explici=
t discovery step because the client now needs to know several things about =
the server. The mix-up attack and a few other attacks in OAuth 2 stem from =
this kind of process. In XYZ, the client really only needs to know the tran=
saction endpoint URL and it learns everything else from that point. Yes, th=
e client needs to discover that someplace =E2=80=94 but it was a deliberate=
 decision in limiting the amount of upfront information that the client nee=
ds to get started.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
That is still discovery, is it not?</div><div><br></div><div>Would the Clie=
nt not need to know the message signing methods supported? JOSE, HTTP Signi=
ng, and/or MTLS?=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div> I=E2=80=99ve played with the conce=
pt of a =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D list in XYZ, where the client would =
present a list of things it can do and the AS trims that list to what it ca=
n also do.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So ... p=
rogramatic discovery? =3D)</div><div><br></div><div>Are you suggesting that=
 discovery of everything but the endpoint has to be programatic?=C2=A0</div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><d=
iv><div><div> This type of one-stage negotiation is really powerful and I t=
hink we can get a lot from it here.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div>Sure ... but for many people what works today is documenta=
tion that someone reads to understand what to do. Are you suggesting we not=
 enable that?</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>All in all=
, thanks for the draft. I think it raises important questions and the discu=
ssion of these questions will help us build the best system we can.</div></=
div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks again for writing u=
p your feedback!</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>/Dick</div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div>

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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Thread-Topic: [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed claims - providence
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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
CC: Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Questions on the TxAuth charter
Thread-Index: AQHV1oNewUIDL3ZtxkShH8+4e1meTqgBg6iAgABZJYA=
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 00:55:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Questions on the TxAuth charter
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed claims - providence
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	charset=utf-8

I think the use cases for SET are very different from an authentication =
assertion, which is consumed then discarded. Aaron Parecki has written a =
good blog post that touches on this:

https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz

If we need a persistent record then we can also send that =E2=80=94 =
maybe it=E2=80=99s even a SET instead of an ID Token? I=E2=80=99m still =
fine with enabling signed JWTs to carry information, but what I was =
against was stating any assumption that they would always be signed or =
encrypted, and that JWT would be the assumed carrier for that.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 30, 2020, at 1:00 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> +1 to Dick=E2=80=99s counterpoints. The Security Considerations in =
draft-ietf-secevent-http-push =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-http-push-07#section-5.4>=
 talk about validation of persisted SETs as one reason a deployment may =
wish to transmit signed SETs even over a TLS-protected channel. The same =
idea applies to identity claims or just about anything else, really.
> =20
> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
> =20
> =20
> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> Date: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 2:16 PM
> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, =
Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>, "Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Subject: [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed claims - =
providence
> =20
> I forgot to include the reference to Annabelle calling this out =
earlier
> =20
> =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w>=

> =20
> =20
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:14 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Forking the discussion to focus on signed claims
>> =20
>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, =
cases where we need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately =
from the core transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is =
allowed to be unsigned when it is retrieved from the token endpoint =
directly using the code flow. The equivalent of this is the only place =
that TxAuth would be sending back user claims directly. We no longer =
have a need to protect things as they travel through the front channel =
on a redirect, and we no longer have a need to use the user=E2=80=99s =
claims as an artifact for things like session management (we can define =
a new artifact for that purpose that fits better). This effectively =
means that we don=E2=80=99t need to redefine the ID Token because we =
don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of the ID token in the same way.. For =
the cases that we do need to define user claims, we should be defining =
them as a JSON object model. And I also believe that this JSON data =
model should not be intertwined with or constrained by the JWT claims =
registry. The OIDC claims registry can serve as influence and input to =
our user claims set if we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be =
intertwined with that either.
>> =20
>> I disagree. I think it is likely that we will see an increase in =
signed claims and messages.
>> =20
>> In my opinion, the providence of a claim or message is far more =
important than protection during transit.=20
>> =20
>> Client / AS non-repudiation: when sensitive operations are performed =
relying on the contents of a claim, the Client will want repudiation =
that the AS or claims issuer made a claim.
>> =20
>> Separation of duties in complex systems: In large organizations, a =
major security threat is a malicious insider. Once an organization =
reaches a certain size, you assume there are people employed at the =
company that do not have the firms best interests in mind. One =
mitigation of this threat is done by separating what different teams can =
do with customer / sensitive data, requiring collusion to access or =
modify the data. Signed messages and claims simplify different =
components being able to independently verify a message or claim. =
Similarly, a component issuing a claim, has assurance that other =
components in the same system are not modifying it. Large organizations =
wrap external systems that do not support this with their own security =
mechanism -- but not all organizations are this sophisticated, and as =
they grow, retrofitting is difficult. Enabling end to end providence is =
a best practice in my opinion.
>> =20
>> User Consent Audit: as privacy becomes a larger public topic, it is =
easy to imagine organizations wanting to prove that they obtained user =
information with consent. Rather than gathering user information =
directly from the user, a Client can acquire claims from the User's =
claims provider that asserts the user provided consent to the Client. =
The Client can then technically establish that all user data was =
gathered with consent, and the context of the consent.
>> =20
>> While the message containing the claims may be signed, having =
independent claims separately signed simplifies the least privilege =
tenet, where a component only has access to the user information it =
needs.. =20
>> =20
>> /Dick


--Apple-Mail=_1369ECFC-32A4-49E4-BEA3-5C2EB07AB079
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
think the use cases for SET are very different from an authentication =
assertion, which is consumed then discarded. Aaron Parecki has written a =
good blog post that touches on this:<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz" =
class=3D"">https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz</=
a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we need =
a persistent record then we can also send that =E2=80=94 maybe it=E2=80=99=
s even a SET instead of an ID Token? I=E2=80=99m still fine with =
enabling signed JWTs to carry information, but what I was against was =
stating any assumption that they would always be signed or encrypted, =
and that JWT would be the assumed carrier for that.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 30, 2020, at 1:00 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1 to =
Dick=E2=80=99s counterpoints.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-http-push-07#secti=
on-5.4" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">The =
Security Considerations in draft-ietf-secevent-http-push</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>talk about validation of =
persisted SETs as one reason a deployment may wish to transmit signed =
SETs even over a TLS-protected channel. The same idea applies to =
identity claims or just about anything else, really.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">=E2=80=93&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">AWS Identity<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, January 29, =
2020 at 2:16 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Kim =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" =
class=3D"">kim@identityblog.com</a>&gt;, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" =
class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>[UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: =
The need for signed claims - providence<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I forgot to include the =
reference to Annabelle calling this out earlier<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN=
1o886w" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ4=
3fN1o886w</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at =
1:14 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Forking the discussion to focus on =
signed claims<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at =
3:37 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&lt;snip&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">First, I =
don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, cases where we =
need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core =
transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be =
unsigned when it is retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the =
code flow. The equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be =
sending back user claims directly. We no longer have a need to protect =
things as they travel through the front channel on a redirect, and we no =
longer have a need to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for =
things like session management (we can define a new artifact for that =
purpose that fits better). This effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t =
need to redefine the ID Token because we don=E2=80=99t need the =
equivalent of the ID token in the same way.. For the cases that we do =
need to define user claims, we should be defining them as a JSON object =
model. And I also believe that this JSON data model should not be =
intertwined with or constrained by the JWT claims registry. The OIDC =
claims registry can serve as influence and input to our user claims set =
if we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with =
that either.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I disagree. I think it is likely that we will see an increase =
in signed claims and messages.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">In my opinion, the providence of a claim or message is far =
more important than protection during transit.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Client / AS =
non-repudiation</b>: when sensitive operations are performed relying on =
the contents of a claim, the Client will want repudiation that the AS or =
claims issuer made a claim.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Separation of duties in complex systems</b>: In =
large organizations, a major security threat is a malicious insider. =
Once an organization reaches a certain size, you assume there are people =
employed at the company that do not have the firms best interests in =
mind. One mitigation of this threat is done by separating what different =
teams can do with customer / sensitive data, requiring collusion to =
access or modify the data. Signed messages and claims simplify different =
components being able to independently verify a message or claim. =
Similarly, a component issuing a claim, has assurance that other =
components in the same system are not modifying it. Large organizations =
wrap external systems that do not support this with their own security =
mechanism -- but not all organizations are this sophisticated, and as =
they grow, retrofitting is difficult. Enabling end to end providence is =
a best practice in my opinion.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">User Consent Audit</b>: as privacy becomes a =
larger public topic, it is easy to imagine organizations wanting to =
prove that they obtained user information with consent. Rather than =
gathering user information directly from the user, a Client can acquire =
claims from the User's claims provider that asserts the user provided =
consent to the Client. The Client can then technically establish that =
all user data was gathered with consent, and the context of the =
consent.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">While the message containing the claims may be signed, having =
independent claims separately signed simplifies the least privilege =
tenet, where a component only has access to the user information it =
needs..&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">/Dick</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></b=
lockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_1369ECFC-32A4-49E4-BEA3-5C2EB07AB079--


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References: <1A271B3F-63C7-4575-9363-3AA9A9DCCC78@mit.edu> <430ED973-AA62-4D75-975B-A1163605162A@lodderstedt.net> <08ADC53C-8FA8-4A7F-995E-4D88EC0DB5CE@mit.edu> <CH2PR00MB0679A3CE293D3DAF20A640E2F5050@CH2PR00MB0679.namprd00.prod.outlook.com> <D4DDE3A6-0759-4025-9A2A-42D03629C35D@mit.edu> <585BCD70-6B64-4058-AC70-B677695DB391@mit.edu> <CAD9ie-sdsLFuiBTjNxGT6+No69cfkJsB_UDgybyKh_iftYyPEQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-sae8iUzWXUSVScK-dr5moDfM=VjDHgikE1gg1ktARDkA@mail.gmail.com> <7833DDB1-FB88-4151-84B6-8DABB6436B53@amazon.com> <D9F47553-C172-4350-9913-AF1EB1CE767A@mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <D9F47553-C172-4350-9913-AF1EB1CE767A@mit.edu>
From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:58:02 -0800
Message-ID: <CAD9ie-vY92POfKmZBLj5xvmDT10n=-EMeDpbdYXtTScg2JnmFA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>,  Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed claims - providence
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Justin: would you respond to my critique of your statement? I was not
talking about SETs.

Tl;dr: multiple services in a pipeline in a complex app may need to
independently verify a claim.
=E1=90=A7

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 10:19 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> I think the use cases for SET are very different from an authentication
> assertion, which is consumed then discarded. Aaron Parecki has written a
> good blog post that touches on this:
>
> https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz
>
> If we need a persistent record then we can also send that =E2=80=94 maybe=
 it=E2=80=99s
> even a SET instead of an ID Token? I=E2=80=99m still fine with enabling s=
igned JWTs
> to carry information, but what I was against was stating any assumption
> that they would always be signed or encrypted, and that JWT would be the
> assumed carrier for that.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Jan 30, 2020, at 1:00 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> +1 to Dick=E2=80=99s counterpoints. The Security Considerations in
> draft-ietf-secevent-http-push
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-http-push-07#section-5.4=
>
>  talk about validation of persisted SETs as one reason a deployment may
> wish to transmit signed SETs even over a TLS-protected channel. The same
> idea applies to identity claims or just about anything else, really.
>
> =E2=80=93
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
>
>
> *From: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 2:16 PM
> *To: *Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> *Cc: *"txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>,
> Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>, "Richard Backman,
> Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
>
> *Subject: *[UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed claims - providenc=
e
>
> I forgot to include the reference to Annabelle calling this out earlier
>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:14 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Forking the discussion to focus on signed claims
>
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, cases =
where we
> need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core
> transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be unsigne=
d
> when it is retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the code flow=
.
> The equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be sending bac=
k
> user claims directly. We no longer have a need to protect things as they
> travel through the front channel on a redirect, and we no longer have a
> need to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for things like sess=
ion
> management (we can define a new artifact for that purpose that fits
> better). This effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t need to redefine th=
e ID Token
> because we don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of the ID token in the same =
way.. For
> the cases that we do need to define user claims, we should be defining th=
em
> as a JSON object model. And I also believe that this JSON data model shou=
ld
> not be intertwined with or constrained by the JWT claims registry. The OI=
DC
> claims registry can serve as influence and input to our user claims set i=
f
> we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with that e=
ither.
>
>
> I disagree. I think it is likely that we will see an increase in signed
> claims and messages.
>
> In my opinion, the providence of a claim or message is far more important
> than protection during transit.
>
> *Client / AS non-repudiation*: when sensitive operations are performed
> relying on the contents of a claim, the Client will want repudiation that
> the AS or claims issuer made a claim.
>
> *Separation of duties in complex systems*: In large organizations, a
> major security threat is a malicious insider. Once an organization reache=
s
> a certain size, you assume there are people employed at the company that =
do
> not have the firms best interests in mind. One mitigation of this threat =
is
> done by separating what different teams can do with customer / sensitive
> data, requiring collusion to access or modify the data. Signed messages a=
nd
> claims simplify different components being able to independently verify a
> message or claim. Similarly, a component issuing a claim, has assurance
> that other components in the same system are not modifying it. Large
> organizations wrap external systems that do not support this with their o=
wn
> security mechanism -- but not all organizations are this sophisticated, a=
nd
> as they grow, retrofitting is difficult. Enabling end to end providence i=
s
> a best practice in my opinion.
>
> *User Consent Audit*: as privacy becomes a larger public topic, it is
> easy to imagine organizations wanting to prove that they obtained user
> information with consent. Rather than gathering user information directly
> from the user, a Client can acquire claims from the User's claims provide=
r
> that asserts the user provided consent to the Client. The Client can then
> technically establish that all user data was gathered with consent, and t=
he
> context of the consent.
>
> While the message containing the claims may be signed, having independent
> claims separately signed simplifies the least privilege tenet, where a
> component only has access to the user information it needs..
>
> /Dick
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Justin: would you respond to my critique of your statement=
? I was not talking about SETs.<div><br></div><div>Tl;dr: multiple services=
 in a pipeline in a complex app may need to independently verify a claim.=
=C2=A0</div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px"><=
img alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" src=3D"http=
s://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;t=
ype=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D03e26191-cfe7-43dc-900c-1500ddf37cf0"><font co=
lor=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7</font></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 10:19 PM=
 Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div s=
tyle=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">I think the use cases for SET are very =
different from an authentication assertion, which is consumed then discarde=
d. Aaron Parecki has written a good blog post that touches on this:<div><br=
></div><div><a href=3D"https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identi=
ty-to-xyz" target=3D"_blank">https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-=
identity-to-xyz</a></div><div><br></div><div>If we need a persistent record=
 then we can also send that =E2=80=94 maybe it=E2=80=99s even a SET instead=
 of an ID Token? I=E2=80=99m still fine with enabling signed JWTs to carry =
information, but what I was against was stating any assumption that they wo=
uld always be signed or encrypted, and that JWT would be the assumed carrie=
r for that.<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<br><div><br><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 30, 2020, at 1:00 AM, Richard Backman, Annabel=
le &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@am=
azon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;f=
ont-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">+1 to =
Dick=E2=80=99s counterpoints.<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-http-push-07#section-5.4" style=3D"color:bl=
ue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">The Security Considerations=
 in draft-ietf-secevent-http-push</a><span>=C2=A0</span>talk about validati=
on of persisted SETs as one reason a deployment may wish to transmit signed=
 SETs even over a TLS-protected channel. The same idea applies to identity =
claims or just about anything else, really.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=
=80=93=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12pt">AWS Identity<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=
=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(=
181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">From:<span>=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Dick H=
ardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.har=
dt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday, January 2=
9, 2020 at 2:16 PM<br><b>To:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br><=
b>Cc:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Kim &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kim@=
identityblog.com" target=3D"_blank">kim@identityblog.com</a>&gt;, Torsten L=
odderstedt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.=
com</a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span>=
=C2=A0</span></b>[UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed claims - provi=
dence<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I forgot to include the reference to Annabell=
e calling this out earlier<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/ar=
ch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w" style=3D"color:blue;text-decorat=
ion:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txau=
th/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w</a><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:14 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-=
left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;m=
argin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Forkin=
g the discussion to focus on signed claims<u></u><u></u></div></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:=
37 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color:b=
lue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;snip&gt;<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-=
width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin=
-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">First, I do=
n=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, cases where we need=
 user claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core transactio=
n messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be unsigned when it is=
 retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the code flow. The equiva=
lent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be sending back user claim=
s directly. We no longer have a need to protect things as they travel throu=
gh the front channel on a redirect, and we no longer have a need to use the=
 user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for things like session management (w=
e can define a new artifact for that purpose that fits better). This effect=
ively means that we don=E2=80=99t need to redefine the ID Token because we =
don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of the ID token in the same way.. For the=
 cases that we do need to define user claims, we should be defining them as=
 a JSON object model. And I also believe that this JSON data model should n=
ot be intertwined with or constrained by the JWT claims registry. The OIDC =
claims registry can serve as influence and input to our user claims set if =
we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with that eit=
her.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I disagree. I think it is likely that =
we will see an increase in signed claims and messages.<u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">In my op=
inion, the providence of a claim or message is far more important than prot=
ection during transit.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>Client / AS non-repudiation</b>=
: when sensitive operations are performed relying on the contents of a clai=
m, the Client will want repudiation that the AS or claims issuer made a cla=
im.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><b>Separation of duties in complex systems</b>: In large or=
ganizations, a major security threat is a malicious insider. Once an organi=
zation reaches a certain size, you assume there are people employed at the =
company that do not have the firms best interests in mind. One mitigation o=
f this threat is done by separating what different teams can do with custom=
er / sensitive data, requiring collusion to access or modify the data. Sign=
ed messages and claims simplify different components being able to independ=
ently verify a message or claim. Similarly, a component issuing a claim, ha=
s assurance that other components in the same system are not modifying it. =
Large organizations wrap external systems that do not support this with the=
ir own security mechanism -- but not all organizations are this sophisticat=
ed, and as they grow, retrofitting is difficult. Enabling end to end provid=
ence is a best practice in my opinion.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>User Consent Audit</b=
>: as privacy becomes a larger public topic, it is easy to imagine organiza=
tions wanting to prove that they obtained user information with consent. Ra=
ther than gathering user information directly from the user, a Client can a=
cquire claims from the User&#39;s claims provider that asserts the user pro=
vided consent to the Client. The Client can then technically establish that=
 all user data was gathered with consent, and the context of the consent.<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">While the message containing the claims may be signed, having in=
dependent claims separately signed simplifies the least privilege tenet, wh=
ere a component only has access to the user information it needs..=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">/Dick</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div=
></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div>

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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 23:06:35 -0800
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Subject: [Txauth] XAuth-01
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For some reason, the IETF links for draft-hardt-xauth are broken in the
data tracker, but are working in ietf tools.

The latest version is still up at
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00.html

But the 01 submission is stuck.

You can see it here:

https://dickhardt.github.io/hardt-xauth-protocol/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol=
.html

See the changelog for changes.

The big change is letting the Client ask the AS to authenticate the User,
and then return those results while the AS is still interacting with the
User. The Client can then look up the User, and decide what identity claims
and/or authorizations to request from the User, if any.

The Client can then make another request for that information, or for
nothing.

New Users, or Users that have not provided the latest set of information,
are prompted to release it, and the results are returned to the Client.
Existing Users that have provided everything are not prompted.

The sequence is a little more complicated, but looks to me like it solves
the issue that Justin brought up in his critique.


/Dick
=E1=90=A7

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<div dir=3D"ltr">For some reason, the IETF links for draft-hardt-xauth are =
broken in the data tracker, but are working in ietf tools.<div><br></div><d=
iv>The latest version is still up at=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org=
/id/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00.html">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-har=
dt-xauth-protocol-00.html</a></div><div><br></div><div>But the 01 submissio=
n is stuck.</div><div><br></div><div>You can see it here:</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><a href=3D"https://dickhardt.github.io/hardt-xauth-protocol/draft-h=
ardt-xauth-protocol.html">https://dickhardt.github.io/hardt-xauth-protocol/=
draft-hardt-xauth-protocol.html</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>See the ch=
angelog for changes.</div><div><br></div><div>The big change is letting the=
 Client ask the AS to authenticate the User, and then return those results =
while the AS is still interacting with the User. The Client can then look u=
p the User, and decide what identity claims and/or authorizations to reques=
t from the User, if any.</div><div><br></div><div>The Client can then make =
another request for that information, or for nothing.</div><div><br></div><=
div>New Users, or Users that have not provided the latest set of informatio=
n, are prompted to release it, and the results are returned to the Client. =
Existing Users that have provided everything are not prompted.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>The sequence is a little more complicated, but looks to me lik=
e it solves the issue that Justin brought up in his critique.</div><div><br=
></div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" =
style=3D"max-height:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;ov=
erflow:hidden" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYX=
JkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D4450ceba-92cf-46b1-a=
a95-ba75ed7cec22"><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7</font></div>

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Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed claims - providence
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I did: My response to your point was that we should enable this kind of =
thing but not assume that user claims are going to be =E2=80=94 or need =
to be =E2=80=94 in a signed payload. I think that what you=E2=80=99re =
describing is a specific architecture decision which is not that common. =
It shouldn=E2=80=99t be disallowed but I don=E2=80=99t think other =
deployments should pay that cost.=20

Even in OIDC today, you=E2=80=99re allowed to ignore the signature on =
the signed ID Token if it gets delivered on the back channel. In the =
normal case, a JWT provides just an extra layer of wrapping without much =
value. Please see Aaron=E2=80=99s post for a better writeup of that.

So in the end, I think that plain JSON should be enabled for user claims =
(which XAuth also has, I=E2=80=99ll note) along with any type of =
packaged assertion like an ID Token (which I=E2=80=99ll note that XYZ =
also has).

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 30, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Justin: would you respond to my critique of your statement? I was not =
talking about SETs.
>=20
> Tl;dr: multiple services in a pipeline in a complex app may need to =
independently verify a claim.=20
> =E1=90=A7
>=20
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 10:19 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> I think the use cases for SET are very different from an =
authentication assertion, which is consumed then discarded. Aaron =
Parecki has written a good blog post that touches on this:
>=20
> https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz =
<https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz>
>=20
> If we need a persistent record then we can also send that =E2=80=94 =
maybe it=E2=80=99s even a SET instead of an ID Token? I=E2=80=99m still =
fine with enabling signed JWTs to carry information, but what I was =
against was stating any assumption that they would always be signed or =
encrypted, and that JWT would be the assumed carrier for that.
>=20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>> On Jan 30, 2020, at 1:00 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> +1 to Dick=E2=80=99s counterpoints. The Security Considerations in =
draft-ietf-secevent-http-push =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-http-push-07#section-5.4>=
 talk about validation of persisted SETs as one reason a deployment may =
wish to transmit signed SETs even over a TLS-protected channel. The same =
idea applies to identity claims or just about anything else, really.
>> =20
>> =E2=80=93=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> AWS Identity
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>> Date: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 2:16 PM
>> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>
>> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>" <txauth@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com =
<mailto:kim@identityblog.com>>, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>>, "Richard =
Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, =
Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>> Subject: [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed claims - =
providence
>> =20
>> I forgot to include the reference to Annabelle calling this out =
earlier
>> =20
>> =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w>=

>> =20
>> =20
>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:14 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Forking the discussion to focus on signed claims
>>> =20
>>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>> First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, =
cases where we need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately =
from the core transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is =
allowed to be unsigned when it is retrieved from the token endpoint =
directly using the code flow. The equivalent of this is the only place =
that TxAuth would be sending back user claims directly. We no longer =
have a need to protect things as they travel through the front channel =
on a redirect, and we no longer have a need to use the user=E2=80=99s =
claims as an artifact for things like session management (we can define =
a new artifact for that purpose that fits better). This effectively =
means that we don=E2=80=99t need to redefine the ID Token because we =
don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of the ID token in the same way.. For =
the cases that we do need to define user claims, we should be defining =
them as a JSON object model. And I also believe that this JSON data =
model should not be intertwined with or constrained by the JWT claims =
registry. The OIDC claims registry can serve as influence and input to =
our user claims set if we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be =
intertwined with that either.
>>> =20
>>> I disagree. I think it is likely that we will see an increase in =
signed claims and messages.
>>> =20
>>> In my opinion, the providence of a claim or message is far more =
important than protection during transit.=20
>>> =20
>>> Client / AS non-repudiation: when sensitive operations are performed =
relying on the contents of a claim, the Client will want repudiation =
that the AS or claims issuer made a claim.
>>> =20
>>> Separation of duties in complex systems: In large organizations, a =
major security threat is a malicious insider. Once an organization =
reaches a certain size, you assume there are people employed at the =
company that do not have the firms best interests in mind. One =
mitigation of this threat is done by separating what different teams can =
do with customer / sensitive data, requiring collusion to access or =
modify the data. Signed messages and claims simplify different =
components being able to independently verify a message or claim. =
Similarly, a component issuing a claim, has assurance that other =
components in the same system are not modifying it. Large organizations =
wrap external systems that do not support this with their own security =
mechanism -- but not all organizations are this sophisticated, and as =
they grow, retrofitting is difficult. Enabling end to end providence is =
a best practice in my opinion.
>>> =20
>>> User Consent Audit: as privacy becomes a larger public topic, it is =
easy to imagine organizations wanting to prove that they obtained user =
information with consent. Rather than gathering user information =
directly from the user, a Client can acquire claims from the User's =
claims provider that asserts the user provided consent to the Client. =
The Client can then technically establish that all user data was =
gathered with consent, and the context of the consent.
>>> =20
>>> While the message containing the claims may be signed, having =
independent claims separately signed simplifies the least privilege =
tenet, where a component only has access to the user information it =
needs.. =20
>>> =20
>>> /Dick
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_F818624E-E915-45F5-AC3E-A39B5473EE06
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
did: My response to your point was that we should enable this kind of =
thing but not assume that user claims are going to be =E2=80=94 or need =
to be =E2=80=94 in a signed payload. I think that what you=E2=80=99re =
describing is a specific architecture decision which is not that common. =
It shouldn=E2=80=99t be disallowed but I don=E2=80=99t think other =
deployments should pay that cost.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Even in OIDC today, you=E2=80=99re =
allowed to ignore the signature on the signed ID Token if it gets =
delivered on the back channel. In the normal case, a JWT provides just =
an extra layer of wrapping without much value. Please see Aaron=E2=80=99s =
post for a better writeup of that.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So in the end, I think that plain JSON =
should be enabled for user claims (which XAuth also has, I=E2=80=99ll =
note) along with any type of packaged assertion like an ID Token (which =
I=E2=80=99ll note that XYZ also has).<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 30, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Justin: would you respond to my =
critique of your statement? I was not talking about SETs.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Tl;dr: multiple services =
in a pipeline in a complex app may need to independently verify a =
claim.&nbsp;</div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" =
style=3D"max-height:1px" class=3D""><img alt=3D"" =
style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D03e26191-cfe7-43dc-900c-1500ddf37=
cf0" class=3D""><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1" =
class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</font></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan =
29, 2020 at 10:19 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D"">I think the use cases for SET are very different =
from an authentication assertion, which is consumed then discarded. =
Aaron Parecki has written a good blog post that touches on this:<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz</=
a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we need =
a persistent record then we can also send that =E2=80=94 maybe it=E2=80=99=
s even a SET instead of an ID Token? I=E2=80=99m still fine with =
enabling signed JWTs to carry information, but what I was against was =
stating any assumption that they would always be signed or encrypted, =
and that JWT would be the assumed carrier for that.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 30, 2020, at 1:00 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">+1 to =
Dick=E2=80=99s counterpoints.<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-http-push-07#secti=
on-5.4" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">The Security Considerations in =
draft-ietf-secevent-http-push</a><span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span>talk =
about validation of persisted SETs as one reason a deployment may wish =
to transmit signed SETs even over a TLS-protected channel. The same idea =
applies to identity claims or just about anything else, really.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">=E2=80=93&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">AWS Identity<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div =
style=3D"border-style:solid none =
none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt =
0in 0in" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" =
class=3D"">Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, January =
29, 2020 at 2:16 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Kim &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">kim@identityblog.com</a>&gt;, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>[UNVERIFIED SENDER] =
Re: The need for signed claims - providence<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">I =
forgot to include the reference to Annabelle calling this out earlier<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN=
1o886w" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ4=
3fN1o886w</a><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">On =
Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:14 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none =
none =
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">Forking=
 the discussion to focus on signed claims<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">On =
Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&lt;snip&gt;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none =
none =
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">First, =
I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, cases where =
we need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core =
transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be =
unsigned when it is retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the =
code flow. The equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be =
sending back user claims directly. We no longer have a need to protect =
things as they travel through the front channel on a redirect, and we no =
longer have a need to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for =
things like session management (we can define a new artifact for that =
purpose that fits better). This effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t =
need to redefine the ID Token because we don=E2=80=99t need the =
equivalent of the ID token in the same way.. For the cases that we do =
need to define user claims, we should be defining them as a JSON object =
model. And I also believe that this JSON data model should not be =
intertwined with or constrained by the JWT claims registry. The OIDC =
claims registry can serve as influence and input to our user claims set =
if we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with =
that either.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">I =
disagree. I think it is likely that we will see an increase in signed =
claims and messages.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">In my =
opinion, the providence of a claim or message is far more important than =
protection during transit.&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Client / AS non-repudiation</b>: when sensitive operations =
are performed relying on the contents of a claim, the Client will want =
repudiation that the AS or claims issuer made a claim.<u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Separation of duties in complex systems</b>: In large =
organizations, a major security threat is a malicious insider. Once an =
organization reaches a certain size, you assume there are people =
employed at the company that do not have the firms best interests in =
mind. One mitigation of this threat is done by separating what different =
teams can do with customer / sensitive data, requiring collusion to =
access or modify the data. Signed messages and claims simplify different =
components being able to independently verify a message or claim. =
Similarly, a component issuing a claim, has assurance that other =
components in the same system are not modifying it. Large organizations =
wrap external systems that do not support this with their own security =
mechanism -- but not all organizations are this sophisticated, and as =
they grow, retrofitting is difficult. Enabling end to end providence is =
a best practice in my opinion.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">User Consent Audit</b>: as privacy becomes a larger public =
topic, it is easy to imagine organizations wanting to prove that they =
obtained user information with consent. Rather than gathering user =
information directly from the user, a Client can acquire claims from the =
User's claims provider that asserts the user provided consent to the =
Client. The Client can then technically establish that all user data was =
gathered with consent, and the context of the consent.<u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">While =
the message containing the claims may be signed, having independent =
claims separately signed simplifies the least privilege tenet, where a =
component only has access to the user information it =
needs..&nbsp;&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">/Dick</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></b=
lockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Thanks for this iteration. I think this is a much more complicated =
approach than having a token-protected user information API, though.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 30, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> For some reason, the IETF links for draft-hardt-xauth are broken in =
the data tracker, but are working in ietf tools.
>=20
> The latest version is still up at =
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00.html =
<https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00.html>
>=20
> But the 01 submission is stuck.
>=20
> You can see it here:
>=20
> =
https://dickhardt.github.io/hardt-xauth-protocol/draft-hardt-xauth-protoco=
l.html =
<https://dickhardt.github.io/hardt-xauth-protocol/draft-hardt-xauth-protoc=
ol.html>
>=20
> See the changelog for changes.
>=20
> The big change is letting the Client ask the AS to authenticate the =
User, and then return those results while the AS is still interacting =
with the User. The Client can then look up the User, and decide what =
identity claims and/or authorizations to request from the User, if any.
>=20
> The Client can then make another request for that information, or for =
nothing.
>=20
> New Users, or Users that have not provided the latest set of =
information, are prompted to release it, and the results are returned to =
the Client. Existing Users that have provided everything are not =
prompted.
>=20
> The sequence is a little more complicated, but looks to me like it =
solves the issue that Justin brought up in his critique.
>=20
>=20
> /Dick
> =E1=90=A7
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Thanks for this iteration. I think this is a much more =
complicated approach than having a token-protected user information API, =
though.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94=
 Justin<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 30, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Dick Hardt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">For some reason, the IETF links =
for draft-hardt-xauth are broken in the data tracker, but are working in =
ietf tools.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
latest version is still up at&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00.html" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00.html</a=
></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But the 01 =
submission is stuck.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">You can see it here:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://dickhardt.github.io/hardt-xauth-protocol/draft-hardt-xauth=
-protocol.html" =
class=3D"">https://dickhardt.github.io/hardt-xauth-protocol/draft-hardt-xa=
uth-protocol.html</a><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">See the changelog for =
changes.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
big change is letting the Client ask the AS to authenticate the User, =
and then return those results while the AS is still interacting with the =
User. The Client can then look up the User, and decide what identity =
claims and/or authorizations to request from the User, if any.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The Client can then make =
another request for that information, or for nothing.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">New Users, or Users that =
have not provided the latest set of information, are prompted to release =
it, and the results are returned to the Client. Existing Users that have =
provided everything are not prompted.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The sequence is a little more =
complicated, but looks to me like it solves the issue that Justin =
brought up in his critique.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">/Dick</div></div><div =
hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px" class=3D""><img =
alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D4450ceba-92cf-46b1-aa95-ba75ed7ce=
c22" class=3D""><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1" =
class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</font></div>
-- <br class=3D"">Txauth mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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On Jan 30, 2020, at 12:25 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:26 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> As Dick has mentioned, I gave him some early feedback on this draft =
before publication, and he=E2=80=99s asked me to write up my thoughts =
and responses on the current XAuth proposal that=E2=80=99s published =
here.
>=20
> Thanks again for that feedback Justin. I was hoping to see your =
responses before you posted so that I could clarify misconceptions, but =
I'll do that now on the list. =3D)
>=20
> Thanks for writing this up -- I believe it helps us identify the areas =
for deeper discussion to reach rough consensus!
> =20
>=20
> To disambiguate between different efforts, I=E2=80=99ll refer to =
Dick=E2=80=99s draft as XAuth, my own draft as XYZ, and the proposed =
working group work here (as in our eventual output) as TxAuth.=20
>=20
> <snip>
>=20
> I think XAuth has an interesting take on the problem space that TxAuth =
is looking to solve, but in my opinion it generally veers too closely to =
OAuth2/OIDC/JWT in its solution approach.
>=20
> Reusing aspects of OAuth2/OIDC/JWT that are working fine for =
deployments will minimize the migration effort for them to take =
advantage of the security features of this work such as not using the =
redirect for passing parameters. I think XAuth supports the following =
clause of the current draft charter: "the group will attempt to simplify =
porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol where =
possible.=E2=80=9D

I understand the goals here, but I disagree that using the constructs as =
directly as they have been here is the most appropriate approach.

>=20
> <snip>
> =20
> 1. XAuth removes =E2=80=9Chandles=E2=80=9D as stand-ins for various =
elements. In XYZ, the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D concept is a key =
abstraction point with specific semantics. A =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D is =
an identifier to a specific instantiation of a JSON object structure. =
Using the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D for Keys, for Resources, and even the =
whole Transaction lets you do a lot of core things in a parallel and =
reusable way. XAuth re-invents a few of these as separate items, listed =
below, and I see this as a regression.
>=20
> XAuth took the transaction handle and forked it into a completion =
handle and a refresh handle so that it is clear what the Client is =
wanting to happen.
>=20
> It was not clear the value of the other handles that were listed in =
XYZ.=20

I think this may be that you misunderstood the purposes of the handles, =
as you=E2=80=99ve reinvented nearly all of them with different labels in =
XAuth. :)

> =20
>=20
> 2. XAuth uses a Client ID from OAuth 2. I removed Client IDs from XYZ =
because I realized that you don=E2=80=99t need them anymore. The client =
ID tells the AS which client is talking in the front channel because the =
client can=E2=80=99t authenticate. In the back channel, the key (or =
secret) identifier is enough to identify the client =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99=
s the Key Handle in XYZ that can be passed in lieu of the key itself. =
The argument that it=E2=80=99s helpful to have an identifier for doing =
developer support and managing registrations is spurious, since this is =
an internal identifier that never needs to be exposed by the protocol. =
Additionally, a client ID assumes a registration-based model. There are =
ephemeral and per-device client instances like SPA=E2=80=99s and mobile =
apps that don=E2=80=99t really fit the client ID model very well. =
Pushing this requirement on all clients is bad, as we=E2=80=99ve seen in =
OAuth 1 and OAuth 2. XAuth tries to manage this by splitting clients =
into two camps, but I=E2=80=99m saying that no client needs and external =
client ID.
>=20
> I addressed this in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12> # =
7
>=20
>  7.   *Why is there still a Client ID?  Could we not use a fingerprint
>         of the public key to identify the Client?*
>=20
>         Some AS deployments do not allow calls from Registered =
Clients,
>         and provide different functionality to different Clients.  A
>         permanent identifier for the Client is needed for the Client
>         developer and the AS admin to ensure they are referring to the
>         same Client.  The Client ID was used in OAuth 2.0, and it =
served
>         the same purpose
>=20
> Perhaps you did not see that?

I did see that and I addressed it in my comment. The AS admin and =
developer can still refer to an internal identifier without it being =
exposed in the protocol.=20

>=20
> I agree that dynamic client IDs in OAuth 2 were problematic. In XAuth, =
a Dynamic Client is identified by its key.
>=20
> Would you clarify what is broken with Client IDs for Registered =
Clients? It seems to working fine for registered clients in OAuth 2 / =
OpenID Connect, and migrating those deployments will be simpler if we =
keep the same concept.
>=20
> The key handle seems problematic as it will change when keys are =
rotated.=20

Why would the key handle change when the key is rotated? Nothing in XYZ =
dictates how the key handle is generated by the AS or how the key handle =
is mapped to a specific key. It=E2=80=99s not a key identifier, which is =
why I haven=E2=80=99t called it a =E2=80=9Ckey id=E2=80=9D.=20

I don=E2=80=99t see why a registered client can=E2=80=99t be identified =
by its key just like a dynamic client would be. What is the value in =
this split? I think there=E2=80=99s value in treating all clients the =
same and driving the differences in policy on the AS. Either I recognize =
a key handle, or I am being given a public key (which I also might =
recognize). In all of these cases the AS gets to run its policy against =
the party identified by the key.

> =20
>=20
> 3. XAuth uses a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field for interaction. This =
means the client can only do one type of interaction for any given =
transaction. XYZ started like this, but we moved away from it because we =
realized we could have a client app that could handle multiple types =
without that kind of dispatch. In XYZ the client sends over flags for =
each kind of interaction it can do: send the user to an arbitrary URL, =
give the user a code, get a callback from a browser, etc. Combining =
these in specific ways addresses all of the different methods that XAuth =
identifies as its types while also allowing additional things. The AS =
picks from the client=E2=80=99s list based on what the AS can support as =
well as what makes sense for the policies governing the requested =
access.
>=20
> Do you have a use case where the AS will want to pick from a list, =
rather than supporting the one that the Client wants to use?

The AS would return interaction responses that are the intersection of:

 - methods the client indicates it can do in the request
 - methods the AS knows it can support
 - methods allowed by the policy governing the request

I don=E2=80=99t understand the second part of this question, because the =
AS still =E2=80=9Csupports the one the client wants to use=E2=80=9D in =
the XYZ model.

As for a concrete example, look at how we handle the =E2=80=9Cqrcode=E2=80=
=9D interaction case, based on OAuth 2=E2=80=99s device flow. In this, =
you want to send a URI to the client that it can render as a QR code as =
well as a code that the user can type into a page, in case they can=E2=80=99=
t scan the QR code. OAuth 2 manages this by having a user code as well =
as a pre-composed URL containing the code to be used for rendering. XYZ =
used to have a mode for this similar to XAuth, but we realized that we =
could describe this using two separate flags:=20

 - I can communicate a short code that the user can type in at a static =
URL
 - I can get the user to go to an arbitrary URL

The second one is the same mechanism we can use for redirect-based auth.=20=


>=20
> In the case where the AS interacts with an RO that is not the User, =
there would be nothing the Client would need to do. Perhaps there is a =
use case for something different? If so, please elaborate.
> =20
>=20
> 4. XAuth allows OAuth-style scopes next to RAR-style data structures =
(and next to OIDC claims structures). They are treated as completely =
separate from each other. In OAuth 2, RAR is defined in the context of =
scope (and resource and audience and other parameters), and this =
combination is a matter of some debate still that needs to be solved. =
However, it=E2=80=99s clear that they=E2=80=99re combined. In XYZ, the =
only resource request defined is the object inside the resource request. =
You can mimic =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D behavior by using a Resource =
Handle, which again is defined as a single string that stands in for the =
whole object and could be defined by the AS (or the API it=E2=80=99s =
protecting).=20
>=20
> I think you need to reread the 00 draft. Only one type of =
authorization request is allowed.
>=20
> - OAuth style for deployments where that works fine.
> - RAR style for deployments that need the extra granularity of RAR
> - list of RAR style for deployments that support multiple resource =
servers that require independent access tokens.
> =20
>=20
> 5. The different kinds of authz requests in (4) create separate =
tokens.This is very different from both OAuth 2 and XYZ, where you get =
back a single access token. And in XAuth there is no way to get, for =
example, two access tokens that are both described by RAR requests, so =
this seems like a very arbitrary and syntactically-driven separation.=20
>=20
> I don't think you understood what is in the draft. See above.

Apologies on these points =E2=80=94 I didn=E2=80=99t catch that this had =
changed from the earlier drafts.=20

> =20
>=20
> 6. The assumption that JOSE will always be in the toolkit of the =
client developer is not true. You can do an XYZ transaction without any =
JOSE =E2=80=94 for example, using HTTP Sig or MTLS for key presentation.=20=

>=20
> Per earlier feedback from you, I have strived to separate JOSE out =
into Section 8, so that an extension could use HTTP signing or MTLS. Let =
me know where JOSE is still an assumption.

The separation is OK in the current draft, but it still states that JOSE =
is the default, and by implication, preferred.=20

> =20
>=20
> 7. The statement that =E2=80=9Cthere is no HTTP signing=E2=80=9D is =
false, as this is being brought up to the HTTP WG right now (I=E2=80=99m =
one of the co-authors). Yes, it=E2=80=99s not an RFC, but neither is =
this. And if we=E2=80=99re doing agile signature methods, which I =
contend is a required extension point, then we don=E2=80=99t have a =
dependency requirement for it.=20
>=20
> XAuth says from =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12> # =
3
>=20
> There is currently no widely deployed open standard for HTTP signing. =20=

> =20
> Yes, there is working going on. But security it is not a published =
RFC, there are no libraries for it, and it has not been tested on the =
open internet.=20
>=20
> While I wish the HTTP WG luck in this work, and I support it =
happening, it will be hard.
>=20
> OAuth 1.0 core issue was that it was signing a request (in my opinion)

Which is why we shouldn=E2=80=99t have a normative dependency on it =
until it=E2=80=99s done, but ignoring it entirely is silly. I=E2=80=99ve =
always said this needs to be one among many options.

>=20
> The widely deployed HTTP Signing is AWS SIGv4 -- which AWS supplies =
libraries for every API in all popular languages so that developers =
don't have to do the HTTP signing themselves.=20
>=20
> I could imagine AWS adopting XAuth and using SIGv4 instead of JOSE if =
they wanted.

I agree that they should be able to use TxAuth (not necessarily XAuth ;) =
) using SIGv4, if they wanted =E2=80=94 and that=E2=80=99s assuming they =
don=E2=80=99t move AWS to HTTP Sig. :)

>=20
>=20
>=20
> 8. XAuth adds back in an explicit =E2=80=9Crefresh token=E2=80=9D. In =
XYZ, we don=E2=80=99t have a refresh token because we can use the =
transaction handle to continue the transaction after a token has been =
issued. This has explicit and clear semantics that follows from what the =
transaction handle is used for elsewhere in the protocol =E2=80=94 =
continue this request that=E2=80=99s in some authorization state and =
give me the results.=20
>=20
> I think we agree that refresh is a required feature.

Yes, and I think that the constructs are similar, but the difference =
matters. By using the same handle for continuing the transaction over =
time as you do for refreshing, XYZ is giving the client developers a =
specific model: The transaction itself has a state and value over time, =
referenced by the transaction handle. The transaction entity still =
exists after it=E2=80=99s been approved and a token has been issued, but =
the things you can do with it are different (see below).

Both continuation and refresh are saying to the AS =E2=80=9Crun this =
transaction again and if I can get a token (or claims or whatever) in =
its current state, give me that=E2=80=9D. However, they can=E2=80=99t =
really exist at the same time, so having two separate items to ask the =
same question doesn=E2=80=99t make much sense.=20

>=20
> I think a transaction handle is to course grained. I don't think that =
the AS should be returning all the claims in a refresh. And if there are =
multiple access tokens returned from the AS, then each has their own =
refresh handle.

I think this requires a deeper discussion, since the whole idea of =
multiple access tokens is a very different kind of approach here.=20

I see refresh much as it is in OAuth2 and UMA, where it refers to the =
authorization that was granted. This means that you can do downscoping =
to get lower-powered access tokens that are a subset of the overall =
grant, and I think that TxAuth should be able to do a step-up auth where =
you can build some additional request on top of an existing approval.=20

> =20
>=20
> 9. XAuth uses OIDC=E2=80=99s ID Token. As I=E2=80=99ve said on the =
other thread, I don=E2=80=99t think we actually need a separately signed =
assertion. I=E2=80=99d rather see a way to sign the entire response =
which includes the user claims, if we want signature protection.
>=20
> I responded in a separate thread.
> =20
>=20
> 10. XAuth sends all the user=E2=80=99s claims on the login request =E2=80=
=94 or more precisely, this is the only mechanism specified and the =
Rationale section claims this is a feature. This violates minimal =
disclosure and privacy design guidelines, and this type of protocol has =
been developed before with OpenID 1.x/2.x and SAML. The problem here =
unfolds when you think about how it works: The RP needs to log in. If =
this is the first time it=E2=80=99s seen this user, then it needs the =
user=E2=80=99s profile info. If not, and the profile info hasn=E2=80=99t =
changed, there=E2=80=99s no need for it and the AS shouldn=E2=80=99t =
send it. So the RP can signal this, right? Except that the RP doesn=E2=80=99=
t know who the user is yet (that=E2=80=99s why they=E2=80=99re making =
this call!). Can the AS make this call? They won=E2=80=99t know if the =
RP has cached the user=E2=80=99s info or not. And if we=E2=80=99re using =
Client ID, then the AS can=E2=80=99t even be sure that this copy of the =
client is the same as another copy of the client. I think TxAuth needs =
to minimize the user claims sent back to being an identifier, =
information about the authentication event that could change each time =
anyway, and anything that would be needed to control a cache. Additional =
fields can be pulled from the equivalent of a UserInfo Endpoint in a =
two-stage process that both preserves privacy and optimizes for what=E2=80=
=99s available from each party.
>=20
> Not clear how XYZ improves on this.

XYZ does not currently internally specify how to hand user info back, =
but I was looking at something in line with what Aaron Parecki=E2=80=99s =
blog post specified last summer.=20

>=20
> The UserInfo Endpoint solves the Client getting more info than it =
needs, but the User still needs to give consent each time unless the AS =
tracks it. So it is unclear to me what value the UserInfo Endpoint =
brings.

Remembering user consent and delivering claims are two completely =
separate problems and should not be conflated here. I was addressing the =
former.=20

>=20
> Your comments have inspired me on a solution that can be done with =
XAuth (or XYZ) that can't be done with OAuth 2.0/OIDC.
>=20
> I'll add that to the XAuth draft and publish it.=20
> =20
>=20
> 11. XAuth defines an explicit discovery step because the client now =
needs to know several things about the server. The mix-up attack and a =
few other attacks in OAuth 2 stem from this kind of process. In XYZ, the =
client really only needs to know the transaction endpoint URL and it =
learns everything else from that point. Yes, the client needs to =
discover that someplace =E2=80=94 but it was a deliberate decision in =
limiting the amount of upfront information that the client needs to get =
started.
>=20
> That is still discovery, is it not?

I literally just called it that in the sentence above, so yes. :) What =
you=E2=80=99re discovering is different though. And doesn=E2=80=99t the =
client still need to =E2=80=9Cdiscover=E2=80=9D the discovery endpoint =
in XAuth?

>=20
> Would the Client not need to know the message signing methods =
supported? JOSE, HTTP Signing, and/or MTLS?=20

Only required if the client can programmatically do anything about that. =
The truth is that just about every client is going to be configured to =
do one kind of signing, and the developer can usually discover that. I =
don=E2=80=99t see a problem with having it listed in a discovery =
document next to the transaction endpoint, but I think we don=E2=80=99t =
actually need it because of the items below:

> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve played with the concept of a =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D=
 list in XYZ, where the client would present a list of things it can do =
and the AS trims that list to what it can also do.
>=20
> So ... programatic discovery? =3D)
>=20
> Are you suggesting that discovery of everything but the endpoint has =
to be programatic?=20

In no way, shape, or form am I implying that. I=E2=80=99m saying that =
the items that can be used for programmatic discovery can be returned =
from the transaction endpoint without need for a separate endpoint. This =
can even include the signing methods, and the round-trips for an =
automated client are basically the same.=20

So take the XAuth approach:

- client gets configured with the discovery endpoint
- client calls discovery endpoint, self-configures
- client calls tx endpoint

And the XYZ approach:

- client gets configured with the tx endpoint
- client calls tx endpoint, picks whatever default method it wants for =
signing (TxAuth spec can even declare a preferred version if we want)
	- if it works, tx has already started and things just continue =
=E2=80=94 this optimizes for the happy path
	- if it fails, client gets back information to allow it to =
self-configure and calls the tx endpoint again

This is what I mean by one-stage negotiation on the discovery. If the =
client gets it right, that=E2=80=99s fine and things just continue =
without the extra step. If the client gets it wrong, it=E2=80=99s given =
the equivalent of information from the discovery endpoint that it can =
either self correct (which it would be able to do if it could self =
configure from a discovery document) or it will throw an error (which is =
what it=E2=80=99d do if it gets a discovery document it can=E2=80=99t do =
anything with).=20


> =20
> This type of one-stage negotiation is really powerful and I think we =
can get a lot from it here.
>=20
> Sure ... but for many people what works today is documentation that =
someone reads to understand what to do. Are you suggesting we not enable =
that?

I am not suggesting that we disallow human-readable documentation and =
static configuration. I have no idea where you got that I was suggesting =
that.

But to be clear, yes you can still document things and pre-configure =
them. In fact, I think that=E2=80=99s better handled in XYZ that allows =
the client to be pre-configured and get started with a TX request, and =
then recover better if things aren=E2=80=99t what it thought.

> =20
>=20
>=20
> All in all, thanks for the draft. I think it raises important =
questions and the discussion of these questions will help us build the =
best system we can.
>=20
> Thanks again for writing up your feedback!
> =20
> /Dick


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Jan 30, 2020, at 12:25 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:26 AM Justin =
Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">As Dick has =
mentioned, I gave him some early feedback on this draft before =
publication, and he=E2=80=99s asked me to write up my thoughts and =
responses on the current XAuth proposal that=E2=80=99s published =
here.</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks again for that feedback Justin. I was hoping to see =
your responses before you posted so that I could clarify misconceptions, =
but I'll do that now on the list. =3D)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks for writing this up -- I believe =
it helps us identify the areas for deeper discussion to reach rough =
consensus!</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To disambiguate between =
different efforts, I=E2=80=99ll refer to Dick=E2=80=99s draft as XAuth, =
my own draft as XYZ, and the proposed working group work here (as in our =
eventual output) as TxAuth.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">&lt;snip&gt;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">I think XAuth has an interesting take on the problem space =
that TxAuth is looking to solve, but in my opinion it generally veers =
too closely to OAuth2/OIDC/JWT in its solution approach. =
</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Reusing aspects of OAuth2/OIDC/JWT that are working fine for =
deployments will minimize the migration effort for them to take =
advantage of the security features of this work such as not using the =
redirect for passing parameters. I think XAuth supports the following =
clause of the current draft charter: "the group will&nbsp;attempt to =
simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol =
where =
possible.=E2=80=9D</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I understand the goals here, =
but I disagree that using the constructs as directly as they have been =
here is the most appropriate approach.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&lt;snip&gt;</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. XAuth removes =
=E2=80=9Chandles=E2=80=9D as stand-ins for various elements. In XYZ, the =
=E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D concept is a key abstraction point with =
specific semantics. A =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D is an identifier to a =
specific instantiation of a JSON object structure. Using the =
=E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D for Keys, for Resources, and even the whole =
Transaction lets you do a lot of core things in a parallel and reusable =
way. XAuth re-invents a few of these as separate items, listed below, =
and I see this as a regression.</div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">XAuth took the =
transaction handle and forked it into a completion handle and a refresh =
handle so that it is clear what the Client is wanting to =
happen.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It was =
not clear the value of the other handles that were listed in =
XYZ.&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I think this may be that you =
misunderstood the purposes of the handles, as you=E2=80=99ve reinvented =
nearly all of them with different labels in XAuth. :)</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2. XAuth uses a Client =
ID from OAuth 2. I removed Client IDs from XYZ because I realized that =
you don=E2=80=99t need them anymore. The client ID tells the AS which =
client is talking in the front channel because the client can=E2=80=99t =
authenticate. In the back channel, the key (or secret) identifier is =
enough to identify the client =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s the Key Handle in =
XYZ that can be passed in lieu of the key itself. The argument that =
it=E2=80=99s helpful to have an identifier for doing developer support =
and managing registrations is spurious, since this is an internal =
identifier that never needs to be exposed by the protocol. Additionally, =
a client ID assumes a registration-based model. There are ephemeral and =
per-device client instances like SPA=E2=80=99s and mobile apps that =
don=E2=80=99t really fit the client ID model very well. Pushing this =
requirement on all clients is bad, as we=E2=80=99ve seen in OAuth 1 and =
OAuth 2. XAuth tries to manage this by splitting clients into two camps, =
but I=E2=80=99m saying that no client needs and external client =
ID.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I addressed this in&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-=
12" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#secti=
on-12</a>&nbsp;# 7</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"> 7.   *Why is =
there still a Client ID?  Could we not use a fingerprint
        of the public key to identify the Client?*

        Some AS deployments do not allow calls from Registered Clients,
        and provide different functionality to different Clients.  A
        permanent identifier for the Client is needed for the Client
        developer and the AS admin to ensure they are referring to the
        same Client.  The Client ID was used in OAuth 2.0, and it served
        the same purpose</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><br class=3D""></pre></div><div class=3D"">Perhaps =
you did not see =
that?</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br class=3D""></div><div>I did see that and I addressed it in my =
comment. The AS admin and developer can still refer to an internal =
identifier without it being exposed in the protocol.&nbsp;</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I agree that dynamic client IDs in =
OAuth 2 were problematic. In XAuth, a Dynamic Client is identified by =
its key.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Would =
you clarify what is broken with Client IDs for Registered Clients? It =
seems to working fine for registered clients in OAuth 2 / OpenID =
Connect, and migrating those deployments will be simpler if we keep the =
same concept.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The key handle seems problematic as it will change when keys =
are =
rotated.&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Why would the key handle change =
when the key is rotated? Nothing in XYZ dictates how the key handle is =
generated by the AS or how the key handle is mapped to a specific key. =
It=E2=80=99s not a key identifier, which is why I haven=E2=80=99t called =
it a =E2=80=9Ckey id=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=
 don=E2=80=99t see why a registered client can=E2=80=99t be identified =
by its key just like a dynamic client would be. What is the value in =
this split? I think there=E2=80=99s value in treating all clients the =
same and driving the differences in policy on the AS. Either I recognize =
a key handle, or I am being given a public key (which I also might =
recognize). In all of these cases the AS gets to run its policy against =
the party identified by the key.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">3. XAuth =
uses a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field for interaction. This means the =
client can only do one type of interaction for any given transaction. =
XYZ started like this, but we moved away from it because we realized we =
could have a client app that could handle multiple types without that =
kind of dispatch. In XYZ the client sends over flags for each kind of =
interaction it can do: send the user to an arbitrary URL, give the user =
a code, get a callback from a browser, etc. Combining these in specific =
ways addresses all of the different methods that XAuth identifies as its =
types while also allowing additional things. The AS picks from the =
client=E2=80=99s list based on what the AS can support as well as what =
makes sense for the policies governing the requested =
access.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Do you have a use case where the AS =
will want to pick from a list, rather than supporting the one that the =
Client wants to =
use?</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br class=3D""></div><div>The AS would return interaction responses =
that are the intersection of:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp;- =
methods the client indicates it can do in the request</div><div>&nbsp;- =
methods the AS knows it can support</div><div>&nbsp;- methods allowed by =
the policy governing the request</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
don=E2=80=99t understand the second part of this question, because the =
AS still =E2=80=9Csupports the one the client wants to use=E2=80=9D in =
the XYZ model.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>As for a concrete =
example, look at how we handle the =E2=80=9Cqrcode=E2=80=9D interaction =
case, based on OAuth 2=E2=80=99s device flow. In this, you want to send =
a URI to the client that it can render as a QR code as well as a code =
that the user can type into a page, in case they can=E2=80=99t scan the =
QR code. OAuth 2 manages this by having a user code as well as a =
pre-composed URL containing the code to be used for rendering. XYZ used =
to have a mode for this similar to XAuth, but we realized that we could =
describe this using two separate flags:&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp;- I can communicate a short code that the =
user can type in at a static URL</div><div>&nbsp;- I can get the user to =
go to an arbitrary URL</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The second =
one is the same mechanism we can use for redirect-based =
auth.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In the case where the AS =
interacts with an RO that is not the User, there would be nothing the =
Client would need to do. Perhaps there is a use case for something =
different? If so, please elaborate.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">4. XAuth allows =
OAuth-style scopes next to RAR-style data structures (and next to OIDC =
claims structures). They are treated as completely separate from each =
other. In OAuth 2, RAR is defined in the context of scope (and resource =
and audience and other parameters), and this combination is a matter of =
some debate still that needs to be solved. However, it=E2=80=99s clear =
that they=E2=80=99re combined. In XYZ, the only resource request defined =
is the object inside the resource request. You can mimic =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=
=80=9D behavior by using a Resource Handle, which again is defined as a =
single string that stands in for the whole object and could be defined =
by the AS (or the API it=E2=80=99s =
protecting).&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think you need to reread the 00 =
draft. Only one type of authorization request is allowed.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- OAuth style for =
deployments where that works fine.</div><div class=3D"">- RAR style for =
deployments that need the extra granularity of RAR</div><div class=3D"">- =
list of RAR style for deployments that support multiple resource servers =
that require independent access tokens.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">5. The different kinds =
of authz requests in (4) create separate tokens.This is very different =
from both OAuth 2 and XYZ, where you get back a single access token. And =
in XAuth there is no way to get, for example, two access tokens that are =
both described by RAR requests, so this seems like a very arbitrary and =
syntactically-driven =
separation.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don't think you understood what is in =
the draft. See =
above.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br class=3D""></div><div>Apologies on these points =E2=80=94 I =
didn=E2=80=99t catch that this had changed from the earlier =
drafts.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">6. The =
assumption that JOSE will always be in the toolkit of the client =
developer is not true. You can do an XYZ transaction without any JOSE =
=E2=80=94 for example, using HTTP Sig or MTLS for key =
presentation.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Per earlier feedback from you, I have =
strived to separate JOSE out into Section 8, so that an extension could =
use HTTP signing or MTLS. Let me know where JOSE is still an =
assumption.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The separation is OK in the current =
draft, but it still states that JOSE is the default, and by implication, =
preferred.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">7. The =
statement that =E2=80=9Cthere is no HTTP signing=E2=80=9D is false, as =
this is being brought up to the HTTP WG right now (I=E2=80=99m one of =
the co-authors). Yes, it=E2=80=99s not an RFC, but neither is this. And =
if we=E2=80=99re doing agile signature methods, which I contend is a =
required extension point, then we don=E2=80=99t have a dependency =
requirement for it.&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">XAuth says from&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-=
12" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#secti=
on-12</a>&nbsp;# 3</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">There is =
currently no widely deployed open standard for HTTP signing.  =
</pre></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">Yes, there is =
working going on. But security it is not a published RFC, there are no =
libraries for it, and it has not been tested on the open =
internet.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">While I wish the HTTP WG luck in this work, and I support it =
happening, it will be hard.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">OAuth 1.0 core issue was that it was signing a request (in =
my =
opinion)</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Which is why we shouldn=E2=80=99t have a =
normative dependency on it until it=E2=80=99s done, but ignoring it =
entirely is silly. I=E2=80=99ve always said this needs to be one among =
many options.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The widely deployed HTTP Signing is AWS SIGv4 -- which AWS =
supplies libraries for every API in all popular languages so that =
developers don't have to do the HTTP signing themselves.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I could imagine AWS =
adopting XAuth and using SIGv4 instead of JOSE if they =
wanted.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br class=3D""></div><div>I agree that they should be able to use =
TxAuth (not necessarily XAuth ;) ) using SIGv4, if they wanted =E2=80=94 =
and that=E2=80=99s assuming they don=E2=80=99t move AWS to HTTP Sig. =
:)</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">8. XAuth =
adds back in an explicit =E2=80=9Crefresh token=E2=80=9D. In XYZ, we =
don=E2=80=99t have a refresh token because we can use the transaction =
handle to continue the transaction after a token has been issued. This =
has explicit and clear semantics that follows from what the transaction =
handle is used for elsewhere in the protocol =E2=80=94 continue this =
request that=E2=80=99s in some authorization state and give me the =
results.&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think we agree that refresh is a =
required =
feature.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Yes, and I think that the constructs are =
similar, but the difference matters. By using the same handle for =
continuing the transaction over time as you do for refreshing, XYZ is =
giving the client developers a specific model: The transaction itself =
has a state and value over time, referenced by the transaction handle. =
The transaction entity still exists after it=E2=80=99s been approved and =
a token has been issued, but the things you can do with it are different =
(see below).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Both continuation and =
refresh are saying to the AS =E2=80=9Crun this transaction again and if =
I can get a token (or claims or whatever) in its current state, give me =
that=E2=80=9D. However, they can=E2=80=99t really exist at the same =
time, so having two separate items to ask the same question doesn=E2=80=99=
t make much sense.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I think a transaction handle is to course grained. I don't =
think that the AS should be returning all the claims in a refresh. And =
if there are multiple access tokens returned from the AS, then each has =
their own refresh =
handle.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br class=3D""></div><div>I think this requires a deeper =
discussion, since the whole idea of multiple access tokens is a very =
different kind of approach here.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I see refresh much as it is in OAuth2 and UMA, =
where it refers to the authorization that was granted. This means that =
you can do downscoping to get lower-powered access tokens that are a =
subset of the overall grant, and I think that TxAuth should be able to =
do a step-up auth where you can build some additional request on top of =
an existing approval.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">9. XAuth uses OIDC=E2=80=99s ID Token. As I=E2=80=99ve said =
on the other thread, I don=E2=80=99t think we actually need a separately =
signed assertion. I=E2=80=99d rather see a way to sign the entire =
response which includes the user claims, if we want signature =
protection.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I responded in a separate =
thread.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">10. =
XAuth sends all the user=E2=80=99s claims on the login request =E2=80=94 =
or more precisely, this is the only mechanism specified and the =
Rationale section claims this is a feature. This violates minimal =
disclosure and privacy design guidelines, and this type of protocol has =
been developed before with OpenID 1.x/2.x and SAML. The problem here =
unfolds when you think about how it works: The RP needs to log in. If =
this is the first time it=E2=80=99s seen this user, then it needs the =
user=E2=80=99s profile info. If not, and the profile info hasn=E2=80=99t =
changed, there=E2=80=99s no need for it and the AS shouldn=E2=80=99t =
send it. So the RP can signal this, right? Except that the RP doesn=E2=80=99=
t know who the user is yet (that=E2=80=99s why they=E2=80=99re making =
this call!). Can the AS make this call? They won=E2=80=99t know if the =
RP has cached the user=E2=80=99s info or not. And if we=E2=80=99re using =
Client ID, then the AS can=E2=80=99t even be sure that this copy of the =
client is the same as another copy of the client. I think TxAuth needs =
to minimize the user claims sent back to being an identifier, =
information about the authentication event that could change each time =
anyway, and anything that would be needed to control a cache. Additional =
fields can be pulled from the equivalent of a UserInfo Endpoint in a =
two-stage process that both preserves privacy and optimizes for what=E2=80=
=99s available from each party.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Not clear how XYZ =
improves on =
this.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br class=3D""></div><div>XYZ does not currently internally specify =
how to hand user info back, but I was looking at something in line with =
what Aaron Parecki=E2=80=99s blog post specified last =
summer.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The UserInfo Endpoint solves the Client getting more info =
than it needs, but the User still needs to give consent each time unless =
the AS tracks it. So it is unclear to me what value the UserInfo =
Endpoint =
brings.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br class=3D""></div>Remembering user consent and delivering claims =
are two completely separate problems and should not be conflated here. I =
was addressing the former.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Your comments have inspired me on a solution that can be done =
with XAuth (or XYZ) that can't be done with OAuth 2.0/OIDC.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'll add that to the =
XAuth draft and publish it.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">11. =
XAuth defines an explicit discovery step because the client now needs to =
know several things about the server. The mix-up attack and a few other =
attacks in OAuth 2 stem from this kind of process. In XYZ, the client =
really only needs to know the transaction endpoint URL and it learns =
everything else from that point. Yes, the client needs to discover that =
someplace =E2=80=94 but it was a deliberate decision in limiting the =
amount of upfront information that the client needs to get =
started.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That is still discovery, is it =
not?</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br class=3D""></div>I literally just called it that in the sentence =
above, so yes. :) What you=E2=80=99re discovering is different though. =
And doesn=E2=80=99t the client still need to =E2=80=9Cdiscover=E2=80=9D =
the discovery endpoint in XAuth?</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Would the Client not need to know the message signing methods =
supported? JOSE, HTTP Signing, and/or =
MTLS?&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Only required if the client can =
programmatically do anything about that. The truth is that just about =
every client is going to be configured to do one kind of signing, and =
the developer can usually discover that. I don=E2=80=99t see a problem =
with having it listed in a discovery document next to the transaction =
endpoint, but I think we don=E2=80=99t actually need it because of the =
items below:</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""> I=E2=80=99ve played with the concept of a =
=E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D list in XYZ, where the client would =
present a list of things it can do and the AS trims that list to what it =
can also do.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So ... programatic discovery? =
=3D)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Are you =
suggesting that discovery of everything but the endpoint has to be =
programatic?&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In no way, shape, or form am I =
implying that. I=E2=80=99m saying that the items that can be used for =
programmatic discovery can be returned from the transaction endpoint =
without need for a separate endpoint. This can even include the signing =
methods, and the round-trips for an automated client are basically the =
same.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>So take the XAuth =
approach:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>- client gets configured =
with the discovery endpoint</div><div>- client calls discovery endpoint, =
self-configures</div><div>- client calls tx endpoint</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>And the XYZ approach:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>- client gets configured with the tx =
endpoint</div><div>- client calls tx endpoint, picks whatever default =
method it wants for signing (TxAuth spec can even declare a preferred =
version if we want)</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>- if it works, tx has already =
started and things just continue =E2=80=94 this optimizes for the happy =
path</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>- if it fails, client gets back information to allow it to =
self-configure and calls the tx endpoint again</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>This is what I mean by one-stage negotiation on =
the discovery. If the client gets it right, that=E2=80=99s fine and =
things just continue without the extra step. If the client gets it =
wrong, it=E2=80=99s given the equivalent of information from the =
discovery endpoint that it can either self correct (which it would be =
able to do if it could self configure from a discovery document) or it =
will throw an error (which is what it=E2=80=99d do if it gets a =
discovery document it can=E2=80=99t do anything =
with).&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""> This type of one-stage =
negotiation is really powerful and I think we can get a lot from it =
here.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Sure ... but for many people what works =
today is documentation that someone reads to understand what to do. Are =
you suggesting we not enable =
that?</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br class=3D""></div><div>I am not suggesting that we disallow =
human-readable documentation and static configuration. I have no idea =
where you got that I was suggesting that.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>But to be clear, yes you can still document things =
and pre-configure them. In fact, I think that=E2=80=99s better handled =
in XYZ that allows the client to be pre-configured and get started with =
a TX request, and then recover better if things aren=E2=80=99t what it =
thought.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">All in all, thanks for the draft. I =
think it raises important questions and the discussion of these =
questions will help us build the best system we =
can.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks again for writing up your =
feedback!</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">/Dick</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>,  Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed claims - providence
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My point was disagreeing with your assertion:


First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, cases wh=
ere we
need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core
transaction messages.

Sharing the entire transaction with services that only need specific claims
would go against the minimal disclosure tenet.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 11:55 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> I did: My response to your point was that we should enable this kind of
> thing but not assume that user claims are going to be =E2=80=94 or need t=
o be =E2=80=94 in
> a signed payload. I think that what you=E2=80=99re describing is a specif=
ic
> architecture decision which is not that common. It shouldn=E2=80=99t be d=
isallowed
> but I don=E2=80=99t think other deployments should pay that cost.
>
> Even in OIDC today, you=E2=80=99re allowed to ignore the signature on the=
 signed
> ID Token if it gets delivered on the back channel. In the normal case, a
> JWT provides just an extra layer of wrapping without much value. Please s=
ee
> Aaron=E2=80=99s post for a better writeup of that.
>
> So in the end, I think that plain JSON should be enabled for user claims
> (which XAuth also has, I=E2=80=99ll note) along with any type of packaged=
 assertion
> like an ID Token (which I=E2=80=99ll note that XYZ also has).
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Jan 30, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Justin: would you respond to my critique of your statement? I was not
> talking about SETs.
>
> Tl;dr: multiple services in a pipeline in a complex app may need to
> independently verify a claim.
> =E1=90=A7
>
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 10:19 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> I think the use cases for SET are very different from an authentication
>> assertion, which is consumed then discarded. Aaron Parecki has written a
>> good blog post that touches on this:
>>
>> https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz
>>
>> If we need a persistent record then we can also send that =E2=80=94 mayb=
e it=E2=80=99s
>> even a SET instead of an ID Token? I=E2=80=99m still fine with enabling =
signed JWTs
>> to carry information, but what I was against was stating any assumption
>> that they would always be signed or encrypted, and that JWT would be the
>> assumed carrier for that.
>>
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>
>> On Jan 30, 2020, at 1:00 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>
>> +1 to Dick=E2=80=99s counterpoints. The Security Considerations in
>> draft-ietf-secevent-http-push
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-http-push-07#section-5.=
4>
>>  talk about validation of persisted SETs as one reason a deployment may
>> wish to transmit signed SETs even over a TLS-protected channel. The same
>> idea applies to identity claims or just about anything else, really.
>>
>> =E2=80=93
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> AWS Identity
>>
>>
>> *From: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 2:16 PM
>> *To: *Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
>> *Cc: *"txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>,
>> Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>, "Richard Backman,
>> Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.co=
m
>> >
>> *Subject: *[UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed claims -
>> providence
>>
>> I forgot to include the reference to Annabelle calling this out earlier
>>
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:14 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Forking the discussion to focus on signed claims
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>> First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, cases=
 where we
>> need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core
>> transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be unsign=
ed
>> when it is retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the code flo=
w.
>> The equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be sending ba=
ck
>> user claims directly. We no longer have a need to protect things as they
>> travel through the front channel on a redirect, and we no longer have a
>> need to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for things like ses=
sion
>> management (we can define a new artifact for that purpose that fits
>> better). This effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t need to redefine t=
he ID Token
>> because we don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of the ID token in the same=
 way.. For
>> the cases that we do need to define user claims, we should be defining t=
hem
>> as a JSON object model. And I also believe that this JSON data model sho=
uld
>> not be intertwined with or constrained by the JWT claims registry. The O=
IDC
>> claims registry can serve as influence and input to our user claims set =
if
>> we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with that =
either.
>>
>>
>> I disagree. I think it is likely that we will see an increase in signed
>> claims and messages.
>>
>> In my opinion, the providence of a claim or message is far more importan=
t
>> than protection during transit.
>>
>> *Client / AS non-repudiation*: when sensitive operations are performed
>> relying on the contents of a claim, the Client will want repudiation tha=
t
>> the AS or claims issuer made a claim.
>>
>> *Separation of duties in complex systems*: In large organizations, a
>> major security threat is a malicious insider. Once an organization reach=
es
>> a certain size, you assume there are people employed at the company that=
 do
>> not have the firms best interests in mind. One mitigation of this threat=
 is
>> done by separating what different teams can do with customer / sensitive
>> data, requiring collusion to access or modify the data. Signed messages =
and
>> claims simplify different components being able to independently verify =
a
>> message or claim. Similarly, a component issuing a claim, has assurance
>> that other components in the same system are not modifying it. Large
>> organizations wrap external systems that do not support this with their =
own
>> security mechanism -- but not all organizations are this sophisticated, =
and
>> as they grow, retrofitting is difficult. Enabling end to end providence =
is
>> a best practice in my opinion.
>>
>> *User Consent Audit*: as privacy becomes a larger public topic, it is
>> easy to imagine organizations wanting to prove that they obtained user
>> information with consent. Rather than gathering user information directl=
y
>> from the user, a Client can acquire claims from the User's claims provid=
er
>> that asserts the user provided consent to the Client. The Client can the=
n
>> technically establish that all user data was gathered with consent, and =
the
>> context of the consent.
>>
>> While the message containing the claims may be signed, having independen=
t
>> claims separately signed simplifies the least privilege tenet, where a
>> component only has access to the user information it needs..
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>>
>>
>

--000000000000080d54059d6062b4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">My point was disagreeing with your assert=
ion:</div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><=
div><div><br></div></div><div><div>First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are=
 going to be many, if any, cases where we need user claims to be signed and=
 encrypted separately from the core transaction messages.</div></div><div><=
br></div></blockquote>Sharing the entire transaction with=C2=A0services tha=
t only need specific claims would go against the minimal disclosure tenet.=
=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_=
attr">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 11:55 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">=
I did: My response to your point was that we should enable this kind of thi=
ng but not assume that user claims are going to be =E2=80=94 or need to be =
=E2=80=94 in a signed payload. I think that what you=E2=80=99re describing =
is a specific architecture decision which is not that common. It shouldn=E2=
=80=99t be disallowed but I don=E2=80=99t think other deployments should pa=
y that cost.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Even in OIDC today, you=E2=80=99re al=
lowed to ignore the signature on the signed ID Token if it gets delivered o=
n the back channel. In the normal case, a JWT provides just an extra layer =
of wrapping without much value. Please see Aaron=E2=80=99s post for a bette=
r writeup of that.</div><div><br></div><div>So in the end, I think that pla=
in JSON should be enabled for user claims (which XAuth also has, I=E2=80=99=
ll note) along with any type of packaged assertion like an ID Token (which =
I=E2=80=99ll note that XYZ also has).<br><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=
=94 Justin<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 30, 2020, at 7=
:58 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Ju=
stin: would you respond to my critique of your statement? I was not talking=
 about SETs.<div><br></div><div>Tl;dr: multiple services in a pipeline in a=
 complex app may need to independently verify a claim.=C2=A0</div></div><di=
v hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D=
"width: 0px; max-height: 0px; overflow: hidden;" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.=
appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzeroconte=
nt&amp;guid=3D03e26191-cfe7-43dc-900c-1500ddf37cf0"><font color=3D"#ffffff"=
 size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7</font></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 10:19 PM Justin Riche=
r &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div>I think the use cases for SET are very different from an authentication=
 assertion, which is consumed then discarded. Aaron Parecki has written a g=
ood blog post that touches on this:<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://a=
aronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz</a></div><div><b=
r></div><div>If we need a persistent record then we can also send that =E2=
=80=94 maybe it=E2=80=99s even a SET instead of an ID Token? I=E2=80=99m st=
ill fine with enabling signed JWTs to carry information, but what I was aga=
inst was stating any assumption that they would always be signed or encrypt=
ed, and that JWT would be the assumed carrier for that.<div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 30=
, 2020, at 1:00 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richan=
na@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><b=
r><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal=
;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">+1 to Dick=E2=80=99s counterpoints.<s=
pan>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent=
-http-push-07#section-5.4" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank">The Security Considerations in draft-ietf-secevent-http-pu=
sh</a><span>=C2=A0</span>talk about validation of persisted SETs as one rea=
son a deployment may wish to transmit signed SETs even over a TLS-protected=
 channel. The same idea applies to identity claims or just about anything e=
lse, really.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=93=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span>=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Annabelle Richard Backman<u>=
</u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">AWS Identi=
ty<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;=
border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span>=C2=A0</span></span=
></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.h=
ardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<=
span>=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 2:16 PM<br><b>To:<span=
>=C2=A0</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" targ=
et=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>&quot=
;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">txauth@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;, Kim &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">kim@identityblog.com</a>&gt;, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
torsten@lodderstedt.net" target=3D"_blank">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt;,=
 &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amaz=
on.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@m=
icrosoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>[UNVERIFIED SENDE=
R] Re: The need for signed claims - providence<u></u><u></u></span></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I fo=
rgot to include the reference to Annabelle calling this out earlier<u></u><=
u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43=
fN1o886w" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">=
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w</a=
><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><=
/div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Wed, =
Jan 29, 2020 at 1:14 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.c=
om" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">dick.h=
ardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D=
"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:=
rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in=
" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Forking the discussion to focus on sign=
ed claims<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:underline" =
target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">&lt;snip&gt;<u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"bo=
rder-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb=
(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" t=
ype=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are g=
oing to be many, if any, cases where we need user claims to be signed and e=
ncrypted separately from the core transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the I=
D Token is allowed to be unsigned when it is retrieved from the token endpo=
int directly using the code flow. The equivalent of this is the only place =
that TxAuth would be sending back user claims directly. We no longer have a=
 need to protect things as they travel through the front channel on a redir=
ect, and we no longer have a need to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an ar=
tifact for things like session management (we can define a new artifact for=
 that purpose that fits better). This effectively means that we don=E2=80=
=99t need to redefine the ID Token because we don=E2=80=99t need the equiva=
lent of the ID token in the same way.. For the cases that we do need to def=
ine user claims, we should be defining them as a JSON object model. And I a=
lso believe that this JSON data model should not be intertwined with or con=
strained by the JWT claims registry. The OIDC claims registry can serve as =
influence and input to our user claims set if we choose, but I don=E2=80=99=
t think we should be intertwined with that either.<u></u><u></u></div></div=
></div></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">I disagree. I think it is likely that we will see an increase in sig=
ned claims and messages.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">In my opinion, the providence of a cla=
im or message is far more important than protection during transit.=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><b>Client / AS non-repudiation</b>: when sensitive operations ar=
e performed relying on the contents of a claim, the Client will want repudi=
ation that the AS or claims issuer made a claim.<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>Separation =
of duties in complex systems</b>: In large organizations, a major security =
threat is a malicious insider. Once an organization reaches a certain size,=
 you assume there are people employed at the company that do not have the f=
irms best interests in mind. One mitigation of this threat is done by separ=
ating what different teams can do with customer / sensitive data, requiring=
 collusion to access or modify the data. Signed messages and claims simplif=
y different components being able to independently verify a message or clai=
m. Similarly, a component issuing a claim, has assurance that other compone=
nts in the same system are not modifying it. Large organizations wrap exter=
nal systems that do not support this with their own security mechanism -- b=
ut not all organizations are this sophisticated, and as they grow, retrofit=
ting is difficult. Enabling end to end providence is a best practice in my =
opinion.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>User Consent Audit</b>: as privacy becomes a larger=
 public topic, it is easy to imagine organizations wanting to prove that th=
ey obtained user information with consent. Rather than gathering user infor=
mation directly from the user, a Client can acquire claims from the User&#3=
9;s claims provider that asserts the user provided consent to the Client. T=
he Client can then technically establish that all user data was gathered wi=
th consent, and the context of the consent.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">While the message c=
ontaining the claims may be signed, having independent claims separately si=
gned simplifies the least privilege tenet, where a component only has acces=
s to the user information it needs..=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick</div></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>=
</div></div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div>

--000000000000080d54059d6062b4--


From nobody Thu Jan 30 11:50:47 2020
Return-Path: <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 11:50:13 -0800
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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] XAuth-01
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The authentication first feature solves a different, but related problem
than the token-protected user information API. It deals how to minimize
when user consent is requested.

Either the AS prompts for release of claims and authorizations on each
request, or the AS must remember which claims where released to which
Client for each User. If the AS is used for authentication, the user
experience of constantly being prompted is poor, so many implementations
remember what was previously released, and make it available at the user
info endpoint, because the AS does not know if the Client wants to fetch
the data again. From a privacy point of view, making the AS remember which
Clients received which claims is a burden on the AS. A compromise of the AS
exposes a User's history across the all Clients.

Additionally, the AS must deal with the User changing or deleting their
information. Does the AS provide the new data without consent? Does it
continue to provide an API to data the User has deleted? The implementation
details at the AS are pretty complicated.

Perhaps I am missing something, but the user info API allows a Client to
decide if it when it wants to fetch data. It ALWAYS has access to the data.

Since we now have a communication link between the Client and the AS  *whil=
e
the User is at the AS*, the Client can dynamically determine what
information it needs.

I'm *NOT* suggesting we should support authentication first, I was just
sharing an insight that it was possible now.

It does complicate the protocol, but it can simplify Client and AS
implementations as it brings an implementation issue into the protocol. It
also makes it crisp when data between the Client and AS is shared, without
prompting the User each time.

/Dick




On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 11:56 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> Thanks for this iteration. I think this is a much more complicated
> approach than having a token-protected user information API, though.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Jan 30, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> For some reason, the IETF links for draft-hardt-xauth are broken in the
> data tracker, but are working in ietf tools.
>
> The latest version is still up at
> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00.html
>
> But the 01 submission is stuck.
>
> You can see it here:
>
>
> https://dickhardt.github.io/hardt-xauth-protocol/draft-hardt-xauth-protoc=
ol.html
>
> See the changelog for changes.
>
> The big change is letting the Client ask the AS to authenticate the User,
> and then return those results while the AS is still interacting with the
> User. The Client can then look up the User, and decide what identity clai=
ms
> and/or authorizations to request from the User, if any.
>
> The Client can then make another request for that information, or for
> nothing.
>
> New Users, or Users that have not provided the latest set of information,
> are prompted to release it, and the results are returned to the Client.
> Existing Users that have provided everything are not prompted.
>
> The sequence is a little more complicated, but looks to me like it solves
> the issue that Justin brought up in his critique.
>
>
> /Dick
> =E1=90=A7
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">The authentication first feature solves a=
 different, but related problem than the token-protected user information A=
PI. It deals how to minimize when user consent is requested.<div><br></div>=
<div>Either the AS prompts for release of claims and authorizations on each=
 request, or the AS must remember which claims where released to which Clie=
nt for each User. If the AS is used for authentication, the user experience=
 of constantly being prompted is poor, so many implementations remember wha=
t was previously released, and make it available at the user info endpoint,=
 because the AS does not know if the Client wants to fetch the data again. =
>From a privacy point of view, making the AS remember which Clients received=
=C2=A0which claims is a burden on the AS. A compromise of the AS exposes a =
User&#39;s history across the all Clients.</div><div><br></div><div><div>Ad=
ditionally, the AS must deal with the User changing or deleting their infor=
mation. Does the AS provide the new data without consent? Does it continue =
to provide an API to data the User has deleted? The implementation details =
at the AS are pretty complicated. </div></div><div><br></div><div>Perhaps I=
 am missing something, but the user info API allows a Client to decide if i=
t when it wants to fetch data. It ALWAYS has access to the data.=C2=A0</div=
><div><br></div><div>Since we now have a communication link between the Cli=
ent and the AS=C2=A0 <b>while the User is at the AS</b>, the Client can dyn=
amically determine what information it needs.</div><div><br></div><div>I&#3=
9;m <b>NOT</b>=C2=A0suggesting we should support authentication first, I wa=
s just sharing an insight that it was possible now.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>It does complicate the protocol, but it can simplify Client and AS implem=
entations as it brings an implementation issue into the protocol. It also m=
akes it crisp when data between the Client and AS is shared, without prompt=
ing the User each time.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br>=
</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div><div><br></div></div></div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020=
 at 11:56 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@m=
it.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">Thanks for this iteration. =
I think this is a much more complicated approach than having a token-protec=
ted user information API, though.<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin=
<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 30, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Di=
ck Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick=
.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">For some rea=
son, the IETF links for draft-hardt-xauth are broken in the data tracker, b=
ut are working in ietf tools.<div><br></div><div>The latest version is stil=
l up at=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hardt-xauth-protoco=
l-00.html" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hardt-xauth-pr=
otocol-00.html</a></div><div><br></div><div>But the 01 submission is stuck.=
</div><div><br></div><div>You can see it here:</div><div><br></div><div><a =
href=3D"https://dickhardt.github.io/hardt-xauth-protocol/draft-hardt-xauth-=
protocol.html" target=3D"_blank">https://dickhardt.github.io/hardt-xauth-pr=
otocol/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol.html</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>See=
 the changelog for changes.</div><div><br></div><div>The big change is lett=
ing the Client ask the AS to authenticate the User, and then return those r=
esults while the AS is still interacting with the User. The Client can then=
 look up the User, and decide what identity claims and/or authorizations to=
 request from the User, if any.</div><div><br></div><div>The Client can the=
n make another request for that information, or for nothing.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>New Users, or Users that have not provided the latest set of inf=
ormation, are prompted to release it, and the results are returned to the C=
lient. Existing Users that have provided everything are not prompted.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>The sequence is a little more complicated, but looks to=
 me like it solves the issue that Justin brought up in his critique.</div><=
div><br></div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt=
-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D"width: 0px; max-heig=
ht: 0px; overflow: hidden;" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=
=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D4450ce=
ba-92cf-46b1-aa95-ba75ed7cec22"><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=
=A7</font></div>
-- <br>Txauth mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/txauth" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth=
</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div>

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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
CC: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, "Torsten Lodderstedt" <torsten@lodderstedt.net>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] XAuth - a revision of TxAuth
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On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 1:05 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> On Jan 30, 2020, at 12:25 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:26 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> I think XAuth has an interesting take on the problem space that TxAuth i=
s
>> looking to solve, but in my opinion it generally veers too closely to
>> OAuth2/OIDC/JWT in its solution approach.
>>
>
> Reusing aspects of OAuth2/OIDC/JWT that are working fine for deployments
> will minimize the migration effort for them to take advantage of the
> security features of this work such as not using the redirect for passing
> parameters. I think XAuth supports the following clause of the current
> draft charter: "the group will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0
> and OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible.=E2=80=9D
>
>
> I understand the goals here, but I disagree that using the constructs as
> directly as they have been here is the most appropriate approach.
>

Ok. I think we have reasonable clarity on the disagreement.


>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>> 1. XAuth removes =E2=80=9Chandles=E2=80=9D as stand-ins for various elem=
ents. In XYZ, the
>> =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D concept is a key abstraction point with specifi=
c semantics. A
>> =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D is an identifier to a specific instantiation of=
 a JSON object
>> structure. Using the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D for Keys, for Resources, a=
nd even the whole
>> Transaction lets you do a lot of core things in a parallel and reusable
>> way. XAuth re-invents a few of these as separate items, listed below, an=
d I
>> see this as a regression.
>>
>
> XAuth took the transaction handle and forked it into a completion handle
> and a refresh handle so that it is clear what the Client is wanting to
> happen.
>
> It was not clear the value of the other handles that were listed in XYZ.
>
>
> I think this may be that you misunderstood the purposes of the handles, a=
s
> you=E2=80=99ve reinvented nearly all of them with different labels in XAu=
th. :)
>

I understand what a handle is, and what it represents. It appears that the
handles provide a reference to the display, resource, user, and key
objects. XYZ says the AS may issue those, but I could not find determine
when the AS sends them back to the RC. I understand the value of the
transaction handle XYZ, and built on that in XAuth, but XAuth always sends
the display, resource, user and key information by value, not by reference,
so your statement

you=E2=80=99ve reinvented nearly all of them with different labels in XAuth


is confusing.


>
>
>
>>
>> 2. XAuth uses a Client ID from OAuth 2. I removed Client IDs from XYZ
>> because I realized that you don=E2=80=99t need them anymore. The client =
ID tells
>> the AS which client is talking in the front channel because the client
>> can=E2=80=99t authenticate. In the back channel, the key (or secret) ide=
ntifier is
>> enough to identify the client =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s the Key Handle in=
 XYZ that can be
>> passed in lieu of the key itself. The argument that it=E2=80=99s helpful=
 to have an
>> identifier for doing developer support and managing registrations is
>> spurious, since this is an internal identifier that never needs to be
>> exposed by the protocol. Additionally, a client ID assumes a
>> registration-based model. There are ephemeral and per-device client
>> instances like SPA=E2=80=99s and mobile apps that don=E2=80=99t really f=
it the client ID
>> model very well. Pushing this requirement on all clients is bad, as we=
=E2=80=99ve
>> seen in OAuth 1 and OAuth 2. XAuth tries to manage this by splitting
>> clients into two camps, but I=E2=80=99m saying that no client needs and =
external
>> client ID.
>>
>
> I addressed this in
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12 # 7
>
>  7.   *Why is there still a Client ID?  Could we not use a fingerprint
>         of the public key to identify the Client?*
>
>         Some AS deployments do not allow calls from Registered Clients,
>         and provide different functionality to different Clients.  A
>         permanent identifier for the Client is needed for the Client
>         developer and the AS admin to ensure they are referring to the
>         same Client.  The Client ID was used in OAuth 2.0, and it served
>         the same purpose
>
>
> Perhaps you did not see that?
>
>
> I did see that and I addressed it in my comment. The AS admin and
> developer can still refer to an internal identifier without it being
> exposed in the protocol.
>

There needs to be some shared identifier in the protocol, would you not
agree? For Registered Clients, the AS needs to have an identifier to look
up the data it has for the Client.

What is broken with Client ID? What identifier are you proposing in XYZ?


>
>
> I agree that dynamic client IDs in OAuth 2 were problematic. In XAuth, a
> Dynamic Client is identified by its key.
>
> Would you clarify what is broken with Client IDs for Registered Clients?
> It seems to working fine for registered clients in OAuth 2 / OpenID
> Connect, and migrating those deployments will be simpler if we keep the
> same concept.
>
> The key handle seems problematic as it will change when keys are rotated.
>
>
> Why would the key handle change when the key is rotated? Nothing in XYZ
> dictates how the key handle is generated by the AS or how the key handle =
is
> mapped to a specific key. It=E2=80=99s not a key identifier, which is why=
 I haven=E2=80=99t
> called it a =E2=80=9Ckey id=E2=80=9D.
>

I mistyped, I intended to say key fingerprint, which obviously changes when
the key is rotated.

I reread the XYZ Key Handle section ... and you are suggesting it
represents the Client instance, but it is not clear how the AS maps that to
preregistered client information.


>
> I don=E2=80=99t see why a registered client can=E2=80=99t be identified b=
y its key just
> like a dynamic client would be. What is the value in this split? I think
> there=E2=80=99s value in treating all clients the same and driving the di=
fferences
> in policy on the AS. Either I recognize a key handle, or I am being given=
 a
> public key (which I also might recognize). In all of these cases the AS
> gets to run its policy against the party identified by the key.
>

To clarify, your proposal is that the public key, or a fingerprint of it,
is what the AS uses to look up a preregistered Client?



>
>
>
>>
>> 3. XAuth uses a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field for interaction. This means=
 the client can
>> only do one type of interaction for any given transaction. XYZ started l=
ike
>> this, but we moved away from it because we realized we could have a clie=
nt
>> app that could handle multiple types without that kind of dispatch. In X=
YZ
>> the client sends over flags for each kind of interaction it can do: send
>> the user to an arbitrary URL, give the user a code, get a callback from =
a
>> browser, etc. Combining these in specific ways addresses all of the
>> different methods that XAuth identifies as its types while also allowing
>> additional things. The AS picks from the client=E2=80=99s list based on =
what the AS
>> can support as well as what makes sense for the policies governing the
>> requested access.
>>
>
> Do you have a use case where the AS will want to pick from a list, rather
> than supporting the one that the Client wants to use?
>
>
> The AS would return interaction responses that are the intersection of:
>
>  - methods the client indicates it can do in the request
>  - methods the AS knows it can support
>  - methods allowed by the policy governing the request
>
> I don=E2=80=99t understand the second part of this question, because the =
AS still
> =E2=80=9Csupports the one the client wants to use=E2=80=9D in the XYZ mod=
el.
>

I'm looking for a use case where the AS needs to select from a list, rather
than use the one mechanism that the Client wants to use. Why the extra
negotiation?


>
> As for a concrete example, look at how we handle the =E2=80=9Cqrcode=E2=
=80=9D interaction
> case, based on OAuth 2=E2=80=99s device flow. In this, you want to send a=
 URI to
> the client that it can render as a QR code as well as a code that the use=
r
> can type into a page, in case they can=E2=80=99t scan the QR code. OAuth =
2 manages
> this by having a user code as well as a pre-composed URL containing the
> code to be used for rendering. XYZ used to have a mode for this similar t=
o
> XAuth, but we realized that we could describe this using two separate
> flags:
>
>  - I can communicate a short code that the user can type in at a static U=
RL
>  - I can get the user to go to an arbitrary URL
>
> The second one is the same mechanism we can use for redirect-based auth.
>

I got that. I thought being more crisp in the interaction makes it easier
for implementors to understand.



>
>
> In the case where the AS interacts with an RO that is not the User, there
> would be nothing the Client would need to do. Perhaps there is a use case
> for something different? If so, please elaborate.
>
>
>>
>> 4. XAuth allows OAuth-style scopes next to RAR-style data structures (an=
d
>> next to OIDC claims structures). They are treated as completely separate
>> from each other. In OAuth 2, RAR is defined in the context of scope (and
>> resource and audience and other parameters), and this combination is a
>> matter of some debate still that needs to be solved. However, it=E2=80=
=99s clear
>> that they=E2=80=99re combined. In XYZ, the only resource request defined=
 is the
>> object inside the resource request. You can mimic =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=
=9D behavior by using
>> a Resource Handle, which again is defined as a single string that stands=
 in
>> for the whole object and could be defined by the AS (or the API it=E2=80=
=99s
>> protecting).
>>
>
> I think you need to reread the 00 draft. Only one type of authorization
> request is allowed.
>
> - OAuth style for deployments where that works fine.
> - RAR style for deployments that need the extra granularity of RAR
> - list of RAR style for deployments that support multiple resource server=
s
> that require independent access tokens.
>
>
>>
>> 5. The different kinds of authz requests in (4) create separate
>> tokens.This is very different from both OAuth 2 and XYZ, where you get b=
ack
>> a single access token. And in XAuth there is no way to get, for example,
>> two access tokens that are both described by RAR requests, so this seems
>> like a very arbitrary and syntactically-driven separation.
>>
>
> I don't think you understood what is in the draft. See above.
>
>
> Apologies on these points =E2=80=94 I didn=E2=80=99t catch that this had =
changed from the
> earlier drafts.
>

We can scratch this concern from the list then. Yeah!


>
>
>
>>
>> 6. The assumption that JOSE will always be in the toolkit of the client
>> developer is not true. You can do an XYZ transaction without any JOSE =
=E2=80=94 for
>> example, using HTTP Sig or MTLS for key presentation.
>>
>
> Per earlier feedback from you, I have strived to separate JOSE out into
> Section 8, so that an extension could use HTTP signing or MTLS. Let me kn=
ow
> where JOSE is still an assumption.
>
>
> The separation is OK in the current draft, but it still states that JOSE
> is the default, and by implication, preferred.
>

Yes. I think freedom from having to make a choice makes things easier to
implement and deploy.
For deployments where another mechanism will be significantly better, the
choice is available.

Is there something about JOSE that you think is problematic to make it the
default?


>
>
>
>>
>> 7. The statement that =E2=80=9Cthere is no HTTP signing=E2=80=9D is fals=
e, as this is
>> being brought up to the HTTP WG right now (I=E2=80=99m one of the co-aut=
hors). Yes,
>> it=E2=80=99s not an RFC, but neither is this. And if we=E2=80=99re doing=
 agile signature
>> methods, which I contend is a required extension point, then we don=E2=
=80=99t have
>> a dependency requirement for it.
>>
>
> XAuth says from
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12 # 3
>
> There is currently no widely deployed open standard for HTTP signing.
>
>
> Yes, there is working going on. But security it is not a published RFC,
> there are no libraries for it, and it has not been tested on the open
> internet.
>
> While I wish the HTTP WG luck in this work, and I support it happening, i=
t
> will be hard.
>
> OAuth 1.0 core issue was that it was signing a request (in my opinion)
>
>
> Which is why we shouldn=E2=80=99t have a normative dependency on it until=
 it=E2=80=99s
> done, but ignoring it entirely is silly. I=E2=80=99ve always said this ne=
eds to be
> one among many options.
>

I was not ignoring it. When it is done, an extension can be written on how
to use HTTP Signing. Or the extension could be developed at the same time.




>
>
> The widely deployed HTTP Signing is AWS SIGv4 -- which AWS supplies
> libraries for every API in all popular languages so that developers don't
> have to do the HTTP signing themselves.
>
> I could imagine AWS adopting XAuth and using SIGv4 instead of JOSE if the=
y
> wanted.
>
>
> I agree that they should be able to use TxAuth (not necessarily XAuth ;) =
)
> using SIGv4, if they wanted =E2=80=94 and that=E2=80=99s assuming they do=
n=E2=80=99t move AWS to
> HTTP Sig. :)
>

Moving AWS to HTTP Sig is very, very unlikely, having worked there. Having
an easy path to utilize XAuth / TxAuth is a good goal for the resulting
work.


>
>
>
>
>> 8. XAuth adds back in an explicit =E2=80=9Crefresh token=E2=80=9D. In XY=
Z, we don=E2=80=99t have
>> a refresh token because we can use the transaction handle to continue th=
e
>> transaction after a token has been issued. This has explicit and clear
>> semantics that follows from what the transaction handle is used for
>> elsewhere in the protocol =E2=80=94 continue this request that=E2=80=99s=
 in some
>> authorization state and give me the results.
>>
>
> I think we agree that refresh is a required feature.
>
>
> Yes, and I think that the constructs are similar, but the difference
> matters. By using the same handle for continuing the transaction over tim=
e
> as you do for refreshing, XYZ is giving the client developers a specific
> model: The transaction itself has a state and value over time, referenced
> by the transaction handle. The transaction entity still exists after it=
=E2=80=99s
> been approved and a token has been issued, but the things you can do with
> it are different (see below).
>

The word transaction is muddying what I think you are suggesting here. It
more like a conversation. Transactions from a DB point of view are a set of
actions that all happen, or none happen.


>
> Both continuation and refresh are saying to the AS =E2=80=9Crun this tran=
saction
> again and if I can get a token (or claims or whatever) in its current
> state, give me that=E2=80=9D. However, they can=E2=80=99t really exist at=
 the same time, so
> having two separate items to ask the same question doesn=E2=80=99t make m=
uch sense.
>

They have different purposes. The completion (now authorization) handle is
to check if the AS is done with its request processing, and if so, provide
the results, which includes zero or more identity claims, and zero or more
access tokens/handles.

The refresh handle is to refresh a specific access token/handle.



>
>
> I think a transaction handle is to course grained. I don't think that the
> AS should be returning all the claims in a refresh. And if there are
> multiple access tokens returned from the AS, then each has their own
> refresh handle.
>
>
> I think this requires a deeper discussion, since the whole idea of
> multiple access tokens is a very different kind of approach here.
>

It is a feature of XAuth.

In OAuth today, the bearer token is like a movie ticket. Whoever has the
movie ticket gets in the movie.
Using OAuth to obtain a bearer token is like buying a movie ticket.

Sometimes I want to go to more than one movie. OAuth today makes me wait in
line to buy each ticket. Why not let me buy multiple tickets at once?


>
> I see refresh much as it is in OAuth2 and UMA, where it refers to the
> authorization that was granted. This means that you can do downscoping to
> get lower-powered access tokens that are a subset of the overall grant, a=
nd
> I think that TxAuth should be able to do a step-up auth where you can bui=
ld
> some additional request on top of an existing approval.
>

Is "step-up auth" authentication or authorization, ... or both?



>
>
>
>>
>> 9. XAuth uses OIDC=E2=80=99s ID Token. As I=E2=80=99ve said on the other=
 thread, I don=E2=80=99t
>> think we actually need a separately signed assertion. I=E2=80=99d rather=
 see a way
>> to sign the entire response which includes the user claims, if we want
>> signature protection.
>>
>
> I responded in a separate thread.
>
>
>>
>> 10. XAuth sends all the user=E2=80=99s claims on the login request =E2=
=80=94 or more
>> precisely, this is the only mechanism specified and the Rationale sectio=
n
>> claims this is a feature. This violates minimal disclosure and privacy
>> design guidelines, and this type of protocol has been developed before w=
ith
>> OpenID 1.x/2.x and SAML. The problem here unfolds when you think about h=
ow
>> it works: The RP needs to log in. If this is the first time it=E2=80=99s=
 seen this
>> user, then it needs the user=E2=80=99s profile info. If not, and the pro=
file info
>> hasn=E2=80=99t changed, there=E2=80=99s no need for it and the AS should=
n=E2=80=99t send it. So the
>> RP can signal this, right? Except that the RP doesn=E2=80=99t know who t=
he user is
>> yet (that=E2=80=99s why they=E2=80=99re making this call!). Can the AS m=
ake this call? They
>> won=E2=80=99t know if the RP has cached the user=E2=80=99s info or not. =
And if we=E2=80=99re using
>> Client ID, then the AS can=E2=80=99t even be sure that this copy of the =
client is
>> the same as another copy of the client. I think TxAuth needs to minimize
>> the user claims sent back to being an identifier, information about the
>> authentication event that could change each time anyway, and anything th=
at
>> would be needed to control a cache. Additional fields can be pulled from
>> the equivalent of a UserInfo Endpoint in a two-stage process that both
>> preserves privacy and optimizes for what=E2=80=99s available from each p=
arty.
>>
>
> Not clear how XYZ improves on this.
>
>
> XYZ does not currently internally specify how to hand user info back, but
> I was looking at something in line with what Aaron Parecki=E2=80=99s blog=
 post
> specified last summer.
>
>
> The UserInfo Endpoint solves the Client getting more info than it needs,
> but the User still needs to give consent each time unless the AS tracks i=
t.
> So it is unclear to me what value the UserInfo Endpoint brings.
>
>
> Remembering user consent and delivering claims are two completely separat=
e
> problems and should not be conflated here. I was addressing the former.
>

They are related though. If you are not wanting to ask for consent on each
delivery, how do you know you have consent?


>
>
> Your comments have inspired me on a solution that can be done with XAuth
> (or XYZ) that can't be done with OAuth 2.0/OIDC.
>
> I'll add that to the XAuth draft and publish it.
>
>
>>
>> 11. XAuth defines an explicit discovery step because the client now need=
s
>> to know several things about the server. The mix-up attack and a few oth=
er
>> attacks in OAuth 2 stem from this kind of process. In XYZ, the client
>> really only needs to know the transaction endpoint URL and it learns
>> everything else from that point. Yes, the client needs to discover that
>> someplace =E2=80=94 but it was a deliberate decision in limiting the amo=
unt of
>> upfront information that the client needs to get started.
>>
>
> That is still discovery, is it not?
>
>
> I literally just called it that in the sentence above, so yes. :) What
> you=E2=80=99re discovering is different though. And doesn=E2=80=99t the c=
lient still need
> to =E2=80=9Cdiscover=E2=80=9D the discovery endpoint in XAuth?
>

What discovery endpoint?

>
>
> Would the Client not need to know the message signing methods supported?
> JOSE, HTTP Signing, and/or MTLS?
>
>
> Only required if the client can programmatically do anything about that.
> The truth is that just about every client is going to be configured to do
> one kind of signing, and the developer can usually discover that. I don=
=E2=80=99t
> see a problem with having it listed in a discovery document next to the
> transaction endpoint, but I think we don=E2=80=99t actually need it becau=
se of the
> items below:
>
>
>
>> I=E2=80=99ve played with the concept of a =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D=
 list in XYZ, where the
>> client would present a list of things it can do and the AS trims that li=
st
>> to what it can also do.
>>
>
> So ... programatic discovery? =3D)
>
> Are you suggesting that discovery of everything but the endpoint has to b=
e
> programatic?
>
>
> In no way, shape, or form am I implying that. I=E2=80=99m saying that the=
 items
> that can be used for programmatic discovery can be returned from the
> transaction endpoint without need for a separate endpoint. This can even
> include the signing methods, and the round-trips for an automated client
> are basically the same.
>
> So take the XAuth approach:
>
> - client gets configured with the discovery endpoint
>
- client calls discovery endpoint, self-configures
> - client calls tx endpoint
>

Aaah now I see where we don't have common understanding ... that is not the
XAuth approach at all.

   1.  *AS Discovery* The Client discovers the AS end point, keys,
       supported claims and authorizations, and other capabilities.
       Some, or all of this information could be manually preconfigured,
       or dynamically obtained.  Dynamic AS discovery is out of scope of
       this document.

 In other words, here is some information the Client will need. You will
need to manually configure it, or there may be an option to obtain some or
all of the information you need programatically. The programatic discovery
is out of scope.

Perhaps I need to improve the language?


> And the XYZ approach:
>
> - client gets configured with the tx endpoint
> - client calls tx endpoint, picks whatever default method it wants for
> signing (TxAuth spec can even declare a preferred version if we want)
> - if it works, tx has already started and things just continue =E2=80=94 =
this
> optimizes for the happy path
> - if it fails, client gets back information to allow it to self-configure
> and calls the tx endpoint again
>

Most existing Clients are manually configured. The developer reads the AS
documentation to learn what scopes and claims the AS supports, and then
codes that into the Client. The XYZ approach above does not take that into
account, and is in conflict with what you have below.

In XAuth, I'm calling that out as a step, so the developer understands
where that comes from. You effectively are saying the same thing below, so
it is unclear what your concern with XAuth is.

In XYZ, discovery is currently ignored.


>
> This is what I mean by one-stage negotiation on the discovery. If the
> client gets it right, that=E2=80=99s fine and things just continue withou=
t the
> extra step. If the client gets it wrong, it=E2=80=99s given the equivalen=
t of
> information from the discovery endpoint that it can either self correct
> (which it would be able to do if it could self configure from a discovery
> document) or it will throw an error (which is what it=E2=80=99d do if it =
gets a
> discovery document it can=E2=80=99t do anything with).
>
>
>
>
>> This type of one-stage negotiation is really powerful and I think we can
>> get a lot from it here.
>>
>
> Sure ... but for many people what works today is documentation that
> someone reads to understand what to do. Are you suggesting we not enable
> that?
>
>
> I am not suggesting that we disallow human-readable documentation and
> static configuration. I have no idea where you got that I was suggesting
> that.
>

Because you were not supportive of the discovery step in XAuth? And you
made no mention of static configuration in your description, contrary to
XAuth?  Hence me asking a probing question to get clarity.

Interpersonal communication hint:  when you have no idea on why someone is
asking a clarifying question, ask yourself what might have been unclear in
your communication. Then just answer the clarifying question.


>
> But to be clear, yes you can still document things and pre-configure them=
.
> In fact, I think that=E2=80=99s better handled in XYZ that allows the cli=
ent to be
> pre-configured and get started with a TX request, and then recover better
> if things aren=E2=80=99t what it thought.
>

XAuth documents what information is required, and that it can be
pre-configured.

Where in XYZ is the negotiation after the TX request? Sounds interesting,
but I did not see it.

/Dick
=E1=90=A7

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 1:05 AM Justi=
n Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">On Jan 30, 2020, at 12:25 AM, Dick Hardt &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O=
n Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:26 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@=
mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div>I think XAuth has an i=
nteresting take on the problem space that TxAuth is looking to solve, but i=
n my opinion it generally veers too closely to OAuth2/OIDC/JWT in its solut=
ion approach. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Reusing as=
pects of OAuth2/OIDC/JWT that are working fine for deployments will minimiz=
e the migration effort for them to take advantage of the security features =
of this work such as not using the redirect for passing parameters. I think=
 XAuth supports the following clause of the current draft charter: &quot;th=
e group will=C2=A0attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Con=
nect to the new protocol where possible.=E2=80=9D</div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I understand t=
he goals here, but I disagree that using the constructs as directly as they=
 have been here is the most appropriate approach.</div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Ok. I think we have reasonable clarity on the disa=
greement.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=
<br></div><div>&lt;snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div></div><div>1. XAuth removes =E2=80=
=9Chandles=E2=80=9D as stand-ins for various elements. In XYZ, the =E2=80=
=9Chandle=E2=80=9D concept is a key abstraction point with specific semanti=
cs. A =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D is an identifier to a specific instantiation=
 of a JSON object structure. Using the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D for Keys, f=
or Resources, and even the whole Transaction lets you do a lot of core thin=
gs in a parallel and reusable way. XAuth re-invents a few of these as separ=
ate items, listed below, and I see this as a regression.</div></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>XAuth took the transaction handle and forke=
d it into a completion handle and a refresh handle so that it is clear what=
 the Client is wanting to happen.</div><div><br></div><div>It was not clear=
 the value of the other handles that were listed in XYZ.=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I=
 think this may be that you misunderstood the purposes of the handles, as y=
ou=E2=80=99ve reinvented nearly all of them with different labels in XAuth.=
 :)</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I understand what a h=
andle is, and what it represents. It appears that the handles provide a ref=
erence to the display, resource, user, and key objects. XYZ says the AS may=
 issue those, but I could not find determine when the AS sends them back to=
 the RC. I understand the value of the transaction handle XYZ, and built on=
 that in XAuth, but XAuth always sends the display, resource, user and key =
information by value, not by reference, so your statement=C2=A0</div><div><=
br></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0=
px"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>you=E2=80=99ve reinvented nearly all of=
 them with different labels in XAuth</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
>is confusing.<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-wor=
d;"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><div>2. XAuth uses a Client ID from=
 OAuth 2. I removed Client IDs from XYZ because I realized that you don=E2=
=80=99t need them anymore. The client ID tells the AS which client is talki=
ng in the front channel because the client can=E2=80=99t authenticate. In t=
he back channel, the key (or secret) identifier is enough to identify the c=
lient =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s the Key Handle in XYZ that can be passed in =
lieu of the key itself. The argument that it=E2=80=99s helpful to have an i=
dentifier for doing developer support and managing registrations is spuriou=
s, since this is an internal identifier that never needs to be exposed by t=
he protocol. Additionally, a client ID assumes a registration-based model. =
There are ephemeral and per-device client instances like SPA=E2=80=99s and =
mobile apps that don=E2=80=99t really fit the client ID model very well. Pu=
shing this requirement on all clients is bad, as we=E2=80=99ve seen in OAut=
h 1 and OAuth 2. XAuth tries to manage this by splitting clients into two c=
amps, but I=E2=80=99m saying that no client needs and external client ID.</=
div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I addressed this in=C2=A0<=
a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section=
-12" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protoc=
ol-00#section-12</a>=C2=A0# 7</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page"> 7.   *Wh=
y is there still a Client ID?  Could we not use a fingerprint
        of the public key to identify the Client?*

        Some AS deployments do not allow calls from Registered Clients,
        and provide different functionality to different Clients.  A
        permanent identifier for the Client is needed for the Client
        developer and the AS admin to ensure they are referring to the
        same Client.  The Client ID was used in OAuth 2.0, and it served
        the same purpose</pre><pre style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page"><br></pre></div><div>Perhaps you d=
id not see that?</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>I did see that and I addressed it in my comment=
. The AS admin and developer can still refer to an internal identifier with=
out it being exposed in the protocol.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>There needs to be some shared identifier in the protocol=
, would you not agree? For Registered Clients, the AS needs to have an iden=
tifier to look up the data it has for the Client.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div=
><div>What is broken with Client ID? What identifier are you proposing in X=
YZ?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></di=
v><div>I agree that dynamic client IDs in OAuth 2 were problematic. In XAut=
h, a Dynamic Client is identified by its key.</div><div><br></div><div>Woul=
d you clarify what is broken with Client IDs for Registered Clients? It see=
ms to working fine for registered clients in OAuth 2 / OpenID Connect, and =
migrating those deployments will be simpler if we keep the same concept.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>The key handle seems problematic as it will change w=
hen keys are rotated.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Why would the key handle change when=
 the key is rotated? Nothing in XYZ dictates how the key handle is generate=
d by the AS or how the key handle is mapped to a specific key. It=E2=80=99s=
 not a key identifier, which is why I haven=E2=80=99t called it a =E2=80=9C=
key id=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I =
mistyped, I intended to say key fingerprint, which obviously changes when t=
he key is rotated.</div><div><br></div><div>I reread the XYZ Key Handle sec=
tion ... and you are suggesting it represents the Client instance, but it i=
s not clear how the AS maps that to preregistered client information.</div>=
<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div sty=
le=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t =
see why a registered client can=E2=80=99t be identified by its key just lik=
e a dynamic client would be. What is the value in this split? I think there=
=E2=80=99s value in treating all clients the same and driving the differenc=
es in policy on the AS. Either I recognize a key handle, or I am being give=
n a public key (which I also might recognize). In all of these cases the AS=
 gets to run its policy against the party identified by the key.</div></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>To clarify, your proposal is that t=
he public key, or a fingerprint of it, is what the AS uses to look up a pre=
registered Client?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">=
<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><div>3. XAuth uses a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=
=80=9D field for interaction. This means the client can only do one type of=
 interaction for any given transaction. XYZ started like this, but we moved=
 away from it because we realized we could have a client app that could han=
dle multiple types without that kind of dispatch. In XYZ the client sends o=
ver flags for each kind of interaction it can do: send the user to an arbit=
rary URL, give the user a code, get a callback from a browser, etc. Combini=
ng these in specific ways addresses all of the different methods that XAuth=
 identifies as its types while also allowing additional things. The AS pick=
s from the client=E2=80=99s list based on what the AS can support as well a=
s what makes sense for the policies governing the requested access.</div></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Do you have a use case where the=
 AS will want to pick from a list, rather than supporting the one that the =
Client wants to use?</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>The AS would return interaction responses t=
hat are the intersection of:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0- methods the c=
lient indicates it can do in the request</div><div>=C2=A0- methods the AS k=
nows it can support</div><div>=C2=A0- methods allowed by the policy governi=
ng the request</div><div><br></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t understand the seco=
nd part of this question, because the AS still =E2=80=9Csupports the one th=
e client wants to use=E2=80=9D in the XYZ model.</div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m looking for a use case where the AS needs t=
o select from a list, rather than use the one mechanism that the Client wan=
ts to use. Why the extra negotiation?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;=
"><div><div><br></div><div>As for a concrete example, look at how we handle=
 the =E2=80=9Cqrcode=E2=80=9D interaction case, based on OAuth 2=E2=80=99s =
device flow. In this, you want to send a URI to the client that it can rend=
er as a QR code as well as a code that the user can type into a page, in ca=
se they can=E2=80=99t scan the QR code. OAuth 2 manages this by having a us=
er code as well as a pre-composed URL containing the code to be used for re=
ndering. XYZ used to have a mode for this similar to XAuth, but we realized=
 that we could describe this using two separate flags:=C2=A0</div><div><br>=
</div><div>=C2=A0- I can communicate a short code that the user can type in=
 at a static URL</div><div>=C2=A0- I can get the user to go to an arbitrary=
 URL</div><div><br></div><div>The second one is the same mechanism we can u=
se for redirect-based auth.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>I got that. I thought being more crisp in the interaction makes it=
 easier for implementors to understand.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"ov=
erflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>In the ca=
se where the AS interacts with an RO that is not the User, there would be n=
othing the Client would need to do. Perhaps there is a use case for somethi=
ng different? If so, please elaborate.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><div>4. XA=
uth allows OAuth-style scopes next to RAR-style data structures (and next t=
o OIDC claims structures). They are treated as completely separate from eac=
h other. In OAuth 2, RAR is defined in the context of scope (and resource a=
nd audience and other parameters), and this combination is a matter of some=
 debate still that needs to be solved. However, it=E2=80=99s clear that the=
y=E2=80=99re combined. In XYZ, the only resource request defined is the obj=
ect inside the resource request. You can mimic =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D beha=
vior by using a Resource Handle, which again is defined as a single string =
that stands in for the whole object and could be defined by the AS (or the =
API it=E2=80=99s protecting).=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>I think you need to reread the 00 draft. Only one type of author=
ization request is allowed.</div><div><br></div><div>- OAuth style for depl=
oyments where that works fine.</div><div>- RAR style for deployments that n=
eed the extra granularity of RAR</div><div>- list of RAR style for deployme=
nts that support multiple resource servers that require independent access =
tokens.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><div>5. The different kinds of authz re=
quests in (4) create separate tokens.This is very different from both OAuth=
 2 and XYZ, where you get back a single access token. And in XAuth there is=
 no way to get, for example, two access tokens that are both described by R=
AR requests, so this seems like a very arbitrary and syntactically-driven s=
eparation.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#3=
9;t think you understood what is in the draft. See above.</div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Apolog=
ies on these points =E2=80=94 I didn=E2=80=99t catch that this had changed =
from the earlier drafts.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>We can scratch this concern from the list then. Yeah!</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"ov=
erflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><div>6. The =
assumption that JOSE will always be in the toolkit of the client developer =
is not true. You can do an XYZ transaction without any JOSE =E2=80=94 for e=
xample, using HTTP Sig or MTLS for key presentation.=C2=A0</div></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Per earlier feedback from you, I have str=
ived to separate JOSE out into Section 8, so that an extension could use HT=
TP signing or MTLS. Let me know where JOSE is still an assumption.</div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>The separation is OK in the current draft, but it still states that JOSE=
 is the default, and by implication, preferred.=C2=A0</div></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes. I think freedom from having to make a cho=
ice makes things easier to implement and deploy.=C2=A0</div><div>For deploy=
ments where another mechanism will be significantly better, the choice is a=
vailable.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Is there something about JOSE that=
 you think is problematic to make it the default?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap:=
 break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><div>7. The statement tha=
t =E2=80=9Cthere is no HTTP signing=E2=80=9D is false, as this is being bro=
ught up to the HTTP WG right now (I=E2=80=99m one of the co-authors). Yes, =
it=E2=80=99s not an RFC, but neither is this. And if we=E2=80=99re doing ag=
ile signature methods, which I contend is a required extension point, then =
we don=E2=80=99t have a dependency requirement for it.=C2=A0<br></div></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>XAuth says from=C2=A0<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12" target=
=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#secti=
on-12</a>=C2=A0# 3</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"font-size:13.3333=
px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page">There is currently n=
o widely deployed open standard for HTTP signing.  </pre></div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><div>Yes, there is working going on. But security it is not a publishe=
d RFC, there are no libraries for it, and it has not been tested on the ope=
n internet.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>While I wish the HTTP WG luck in=
 this work, and I support it happening, it will be hard.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>OAuth 1.0 core issue was that it was signing a request (in my opinio=
n)</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>Which is why we shouldn=E2=80=99t have a normative dependency=
 on it until it=E2=80=99s done, but ignoring it entirely is silly. I=E2=80=
=99ve always said this needs to be one among many options.</div></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I was not ignoring it. When it is done, a=
n extension can be written on how to use HTTP Signing. Or the extension cou=
ld be developed at the same time.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D=
"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>The wid=
ely deployed HTTP Signing is AWS SIGv4 -- which AWS supplies libraries for =
every API in all popular languages so that developers don&#39;t have to do =
the HTTP signing themselves.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I could imagine=
 AWS adopting XAuth and using SIGv4 instead of JOSE if they wanted.</div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>I agree that they should be able to use TxAuth (not necessarily XAuth ;=
) ) using SIGv4, if they wanted =E2=80=94 and that=E2=80=99s assuming they =
don=E2=80=99t move AWS to HTTP Sig. :)</div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>Moving AWS to HTTP Sig is very, very unlikely, having worked =
there. Having an easy path to utilize XAuth / TxAuth is a good goal for the=
 resulting work.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div><div><div><div><br></div><div>8. XAuth adds back in an explicit =
=E2=80=9Crefresh token=E2=80=9D. In XYZ, we don=E2=80=99t have a refresh to=
ken because we can use the transaction handle to continue the transaction a=
fter a token has been issued. This has explicit and clear semantics that fo=
llows from what the transaction handle is used for elsewhere in the protoco=
l =E2=80=94 continue this request that=E2=80=99s in some authorization stat=
e and give me the results.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>I think we agree that refresh is a required feature.</div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>Yes, and I think that the constructs are similar, but the difference mat=
ters. By using the same handle for continuing the transaction over time as =
you do for refreshing, XYZ is giving the client developers a specific model=
: The transaction itself has a state and value over time, referenced by the=
 transaction handle. The transaction entity still exists after it=E2=80=99s=
 been approved and a token has been issued, but the things you can do with =
it are different (see below).</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>The word transaction is muddying what I think you are suggesting here.=
 It more like a conversation. Transactions from a DB point of view are a se=
t of actions that all happen, or none happen.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: bre=
ak-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>Both continuation and refresh are saying=
 to the AS =E2=80=9Crun this transaction again and if I can get a token (or=
 claims or whatever) in its current state, give me that=E2=80=9D. However, =
they can=E2=80=99t really exist at the same time, so having two separate it=
ems to ask the same question doesn=E2=80=99t make much sense.=C2=A0</div></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>They have different purposes. Th=
e completion (now authorization) handle is to check if the AS is done with =
its request processing, and if so, provide the results, which includes zero=
 or more identity claims, and zero or more access tokens/handles.</div><div=
><br></div><div>The refresh handle is to refresh a specific access token/ha=
ndle.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div><br></div><div>I think a transaction handle is to course grained. =
I don&#39;t think that the AS should be returning all the claims in a refre=
sh. And if there are multiple access tokens returned from the AS, then each=
 has their own refresh handle.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think this requires a deeper di=
scussion, since the whole idea of multiple access tokens is a very differen=
t kind of approach here.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>It is a feature of XAuth.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>In OAuth tod=
ay, the bearer token is like a movie ticket. Whoever has the movie ticket g=
ets in the movie.</div><div>Using OAuth to obtain a bearer token is like bu=
ying a movie ticket.</div><div><br></div><div>Sometimes I want to go to mor=
e than one movie. OAuth today makes me wait in line to buy each ticket. Why=
 not let me buy multiple tickets at once?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-w=
ord;"><div><div><br></div><div>I see refresh much as it is in OAuth2 and UM=
A, where it refers to the authorization that was granted. This means that y=
ou can do downscoping to get lower-powered access tokens that are a subset =
of the overall grant, and I think that TxAuth should be able to do a step-u=
p auth where you can build some additional request on top of an existing ap=
proval.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Is &quot;st=
ep-up auth&quot; authentication or authorization, ... or both?</div><div><b=
r></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div><b=
r></div><div>9. XAuth uses OIDC=E2=80=99s ID Token. As I=E2=80=99ve said on=
 the other thread, I don=E2=80=99t think we actually need a separately sign=
ed assertion. I=E2=80=99d rather see a way to sign the entire response whic=
h includes the user claims, if we want signature protection.</div></div></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I responded in a separate thread.=
</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv><div><div><div><br></div><div>10. XAuth sends all the user=E2=80=99s cla=
ims on the login request =E2=80=94 or more precisely, this is the only mech=
anism specified and the Rationale section claims this is a feature. This vi=
olates minimal disclosure and privacy design guidelines, and this type of p=
rotocol has been developed before with OpenID 1.x/2.x and SAML. The problem=
 here unfolds when you think about how it works: The RP needs to log in. If=
 this is the first time it=E2=80=99s seen this user, then it needs the user=
=E2=80=99s profile info. If not, and the profile info hasn=E2=80=99t change=
d, there=E2=80=99s no need for it and the AS shouldn=E2=80=99t send it. So =
the RP can signal this, right? Except that the RP doesn=E2=80=99t know who =
the user is yet (that=E2=80=99s why they=E2=80=99re making this call!). Can=
 the AS make this call? They won=E2=80=99t know if the RP has cached the us=
er=E2=80=99s info or not. And if we=E2=80=99re using Client ID, then the AS=
 can=E2=80=99t even be sure that this copy of the client is the same as ano=
ther copy of the client. I think TxAuth needs to minimize the user claims s=
ent back to being an identifier, information about the authentication event=
 that could change each time anyway, and anything that would be needed to c=
ontrol a cache. Additional fields can be pulled from the equivalent of a Us=
erInfo Endpoint in a two-stage process that both preserves privacy and opti=
mizes for what=E2=80=99s available from each party.</div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not clear how XYZ improves on this.</div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>XYZ does not currently internally specify how to hand user info back, =
but I was looking at something in line with what Aaron Parecki=E2=80=99s bl=
og post specified last summer.=C2=A0</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div=
>The UserInfo Endpoint solves the Client getting more info than it needs, b=
ut the User still needs to give consent each time unless the AS tracks it. =
So it is unclear to me what value the UserInfo Endpoint brings.</div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Remem=
bering user consent and delivering claims are two completely separate probl=
ems and should not be conflated here. I was addressing the former.=C2=A0</d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>They are related though. If you a=
re not wanting to ask for consent on each delivery, how do you know you hav=
e consent?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=
<br></div><div>Your comments have inspired me on a solution that can be don=
e with XAuth (or XYZ) that can&#39;t be done with OAuth 2.0/OIDC.</div><div=
><br></div><div>I&#39;ll add that to the XAuth draft and publish it.=C2=A0<=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v><div><div><div><br></div><div>11. XAuth defines an explicit discovery ste=
p because the client now needs to know several things about the server. The=
 mix-up attack and a few other attacks in OAuth 2 stem from this kind of pr=
ocess. In XYZ, the client really only needs to know the transaction endpoin=
t URL and it learns everything else from that point. Yes, the client needs =
to discover that someplace =E2=80=94 but it was a deliberate decision in li=
miting the amount of upfront information that the client needs to get start=
ed.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That is still d=
iscovery, is it not?</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div>I literally just called it that in the sentence =
above, so yes. :) What you=E2=80=99re discovering is different though. And =
doesn=E2=80=99t the client still need to =E2=80=9Cdiscover=E2=80=9D the dis=
covery endpoint in XAuth?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What =
discovery endpoint?=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv><br></div><div>Would the Client not need to know the message signing met=
hods supported? JOSE, HTTP Signing, and/or MTLS?=C2=A0</div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Only requ=
ired if the client can programmatically do anything about that. The truth i=
s that just about every client is going to be configured to do one kind of =
signing, and the developer can usually discover that. I don=E2=80=99t see a=
 problem with having it listed in a discovery document next to the transact=
ion endpoint, but I think we don=E2=80=99t actually need it because of the =
items below:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div> I=E2=80=99ve played with the c=
oncept of a =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D list in XYZ, where the client wo=
uld present a list of things it can do and the AS trims that list to what i=
t can also do.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So .=
.. programatic discovery? =3D)</div><div><br></div><div>Are you suggesting =
that discovery of everything but the endpoint has to be programatic?=C2=A0<=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>In no way, shape, or form am I implying that. I=E2=80=99m saying=
 that the items that can be used for programmatic discovery can be returned=
 from the transaction endpoint without need for a separate endpoint. This c=
an even include the signing methods, and the round-trips for an automated c=
lient are basically the same.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>So take the XA=
uth approach:</div><div><br></div><div>- client gets configured with the di=
scovery endpoint=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div>=
<div>- client calls discovery endpoint, self-configures</div><div>- client =
calls tx endpoint</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Aaah no=
w I see where we don&#39;t have common understanding ... that is not the XA=
uth approach at all.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap">   1.  *AS Discovery* The Client discovers th=
e AS end point, keys,
       supported claims and authorizations, and other capabilities.
       Some, or all of this information could be manually preconfigured,
       or dynamically obtained.  Dynamic AS discovery is out of scope of
       this document.</pre></div><div>=C2=A0In other words, here is some in=
formation the Client will need. You will need to manually configure it, or =
there may be an option to obtain some or all of the information you need pr=
ogramatically. The programatic discovery is out of scope.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Perhaps I need to improve the language?</div><div><br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: bre=
ak-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>And the XYZ approach:</div><div><br></di=
v><div>- client gets configured with the tx endpoint</div><div>- client cal=
ls tx endpoint, picks whatever default method it wants for signing (TxAuth =
spec can even declare a preferred version if we want)</div><div><span style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>- if it works, tx has already started and=
 things just continue =E2=80=94 this optimizes for the happy path</div><div=
><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>- if it fails, client gets ba=
ck information to allow it to self-configure and calls the tx endpoint agai=
n</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Most existing Clients a=
re manually configured. The developer reads the AS documentation to learn w=
hat scopes and claims the AS supports, and then codes that into the Client.=
 The XYZ approach above does not take that into account, and is in conflict=
 with what you have below.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>In XAuth, I&#39;m=
 calling that out as a step, so the developer understands where that comes =
from. You effectively are saying the same thing below, so it is unclear wha=
t your concern with XAuth is.</div><div><br></div><div>In XYZ, discovery is=
 currently ignored.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div><br></=
div><div>This is what I mean by one-stage negotiation on the discovery. If =
the client gets it right, that=E2=80=99s fine and things just continue with=
out the extra step. If the client gets it wrong, it=E2=80=99s given the equ=
ivalent of information from the discovery endpoint that it can either self =
correct (which it would be able to do if it could self configure from a dis=
covery document) or it will throw an error (which is what it=E2=80=99d do i=
f it gets a discovery document it can=E2=80=99t do anything with).=C2=A0</d=
iv><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div> This type of one-stage negotia=
tion is really powerful and I think we can get a lot from it here.</div></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sure ... but for many peopl=
e what works today is documentation that someone reads to understand what t=
o do. Are you suggesting we not enable that?</div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I am not suggesting=
 that we disallow human-readable documentation and static configuration. I =
have no idea where you got that I was suggesting that.</div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>Because you were not supportive of the discov=
ery step in XAuth? And you made no mention of static configuration in your =
description, contrary to XAuth?=C2=A0 Hence me asking a probing question to=
 get clarity.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Interpersonal communication hi=
nt:=C2=A0 when you have no idea on why someone is asking a clarifying quest=
ion, ask yourself what might have been unclear in your communication. Then =
just answer the clarifying question.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-=
word;"><div><div><br></div><div>But to be clear, yes you can still document=
 things and pre-configure them. In fact, I think that=E2=80=99s better hand=
led in XYZ that allows the client to be pre-configured and get started with=
 a TX request, and then recover better if things aren=E2=80=99t what it tho=
ught.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>XAuth documents wha=
t information is required, and that it can be pre-configured.=C2=A0</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><div>Where in XYZ is the negotiation after the TX request? S=
ounds interesting, but I did not see it.</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</di=
v></div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px"><img =
alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" src=3D"https://=
mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=
=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D683fbcbc-6ec8-4b3c-9f14-8011343c00f8"><font color=
=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7</font></div>

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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [UNVERIFIED SENDER] The need for signed claims - providence
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I agree with this direction and it=E2=80=99s in line with what my =
response was trying to say. The implications of Mike=E2=80=99s suggested =
statement was that we would predetermine a preferred method of signing =
things as part of the charter. I=E2=80=99m against that. I=E2=80=99m not =
against us coming up with a preferred way to sign things, and not =
against reusing an existing technology to do so. But none of that should =
be specified as such in the charter as constraining the solution space =
at this level, in my opinion.

In other words, I don=E2=80=99t think we need to or should alter the =
charter to address this point.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jan 30, 2020, at 9:09 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> I am not arguing that claims always need to be independently signed, =
and I don=E2=80=99t believe Dick is either. My concern arose from this =
bit of your follow up response to Mike:
> =20
> Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be unsigned when it is =
retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the code flow. The =
equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be sending back =
user claims directly.
> =20
> This sounded to me like you were saying that the only reason for =
signing or encrypting the ID Token is to secure it as it passes through =
the front channel. That is not the case, as Dick explained.
> =20
> Fortunately, I don=E2=80=99t think any of this matters as far as the =
charter is concerned. It is sufficient for the charter to say that =
identity is in scope. The specific mechanism(s) can and should be =
determined by the working group, in the context of a draft =
specification. Including a particular problem within the scope of the =
working group does not mean that the working group has to invent a brand =
new way to solve that problem. It just means that we caninvent something =
new, if we determine it is worthwhile to do so.
> =20
> =E2=80=93=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> AWS Identity
> =20
> =20
> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> Date: Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 11:23 AM
> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, =
"txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com>, Torsten =
Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Subject: Re: [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed claims - =
providence
> =20
> My point was disagreeing with your assertion:
>> =20
>> First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, =
cases where we need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately =
from the core transaction messages.
>> =20
> Sharing the entire transaction with services that only need specific =
claims would go against the minimal disclosure tenet.=20
> =20
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 11:55 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>> I did: My response to your point was that we should enable this kind =
of thing but not assume that user claims are going to be =E2=80=94 or =
need to be =E2=80=94 in a signed payload. I think that what you=E2=80=99re=
 describing is a specific architecture decision which is not that =
common. It shouldn=E2=80=99t be disallowed but I don=E2=80=99t think =
other deployments should pay that cost.=20
>> =20
>> Even in OIDC today, you=E2=80=99re allowed to ignore the signature on =
the signed ID Token if it gets delivered on the back channel. In the =
normal case, a JWT provides just an extra layer of wrapping without much =
value. Please see Aaron=E2=80=99s post for a better writeup of that.
>> =20
>> So in the end, I think that plain JSON should be enabled for user =
claims (which XAuth also has, I=E2=80=99ll note) along with any type of =
packaged assertion like an ID Token (which I=E2=80=99ll note that XYZ =
also has).
>> =20
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Jan 30, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> =20
>>> Justin: would you respond to my critique of your statement? I was =
not talking about SETs.
>>> =20
>>> Tl;dr: multiple services in a pipeline in a complex app may need to =
independently verify a claim.=20
>>> =E1=90=A7
>>> =20
>>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 10:19 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>>>> I think the use cases for SET are very different from an =
authentication assertion, which is consumed then discarded. Aaron =
Parecki has written a good blog post that touches on this:
>>>> =20
>>>> https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz =
<https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz>
>>>> =20
>>>> If we need a persistent record then we can also send that =E2=80=94 =
maybe it=E2=80=99s even a SET instead of an ID Token? I=E2=80=99m still =
fine with enabling signed JWTs to carry information, but what I was =
against was stating any assumption that they would always be signed or =
encrypted, and that JWT would be the assumed carrier for that.=20
>>>> =20
>>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jan 30, 2020, at 1:00 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>> =20
>>>>> +1 to Dick=E2=80=99s counterpoints. The Security Considerations in =
draft-ietf-secevent-http-push =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-http-push-07#section-5.4>=
 talk about validation of persisted SETs as one reason a deployment may =
wish to transmit signed SETs even over a TLS-protected channel. The same =
idea applies to identity claims or just about anything else, really.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =E2=80=93=20
>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>> AWS Identity
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 2:16 PM
>>>>> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>
>>>>> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>" <txauth@ietf.org =
<mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>, Kim <kim@identityblog.com =
<mailto:kim@identityblog.com>>, Torsten Lodderstedt =
<torsten@lodderstedt.net <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>>, "Richard =
Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, =
Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>>> Subject: [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed claims - =
providence
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I forgot to include the reference to Annabelle calling this out =
earlier
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN1o886w>=

>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:14 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Forking the discussion to focus on signed claims
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:37 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>> First, I don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if =
any, cases where we need user claims to be signed and encrypted =
separately from the core transaction messages. Even in OIDC, the ID =
Token is allowed to be unsigned when it is retrieved from the token =
endpoint directly using the code flow. The equivalent of this is the =
only place that TxAuth would be sending back user claims directly. We no =
longer have a need to protect things as they travel through the front =
channel on a redirect, and we no longer have a need to use the user=E2=80=99=
s claims as an artifact for things like session management (we can =
define a new artifact for that purpose that fits better). This =
effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t need to redefine the ID Token =
because we don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of the ID token in the same =
way.. For the cases that we do need to define user claims, we should be =
defining them as a JSON object model. And I also believe that this JSON =
data model should not be intertwined with or constrained by the JWT =
claims registry. The OIDC claims registry can serve as influence and =
input to our user claims set if we choose, but I don=E2=80=99t think we =
should be intertwined with that either.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I disagree. I think it is likely that we will see an increase in =
signed claims and messages.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> In my opinion, the providence of a claim or message is far more =
important than protection during transit.=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Client / AS non-repudiation: when sensitive operations are =
performed relying on the contents of a claim, the Client will want =
repudiation that the AS or claims issuer made a claim.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Separation of duties in complex systems: In large organizations, =
a major security threat is a malicious insider. Once an organization =
reaches a certain size, you assume there are people employed at the =
company that do not have the firms best interests in mind. One =
mitigation of this threat is done by separating what different teams can =
do with customer / sensitive data, requiring collusion to access or =
modify the data. Signed messages and claims simplify different =
components being able to independently verify a message or claim. =
Similarly, a component issuing a claim, has assurance that other =
components in the same system are not modifying it. Large organizations =
wrap external systems that do not support this with their own security =
mechanism -- but not all organizations are this sophisticated, and as =
they grow, retrofitting is difficult. Enabling end to end providence is =
a best practice in my opinion.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> User Consent Audit: as privacy becomes a larger public topic, it =
is easy to imagine organizations wanting to prove that they obtained =
user information with consent. Rather than gathering user information =
directly from the user, a Client can acquire claims from the User's =
claims provider that asserts the user provided consent to the Client. =
The Client can then technically establish that all user data was =
gathered with consent, and the context of the consent.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> While the message containing the claims may be signed, having =
independent claims separately signed simplifies the least privilege =
tenet, where a component only has access to the user information it =
needs.. =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> /Dick


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
agree with this direction and it=E2=80=99s in line with what my response =
was trying to say. The implications of Mike=E2=80=99s suggested =
statement was that we would predetermine a preferred method of signing =
things as part of the charter. I=E2=80=99m against that. I=E2=80=99m not =
against us coming up with a preferred way to sign things, and not =
against reusing an existing technology to do so. But none of that should =
be specified as such in the charter as constraining the solution space =
at this level, in my opinion.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">In other words, I don=E2=80=99t think we need to or should =
alter the charter to address this point.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 30, 2020, at 9:09 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I am not =
arguing that claims always need to be independently signed, and I =
don=E2=80=99t believe Dick is either. My concern arose from this bit of =
your follow up response to Mike:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed =
to be unsigned when it is retrieved from the token endpoint directly =
using the code flow. The equivalent of this is the only place that =
TxAuth would be sending back user claims directly.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This =
sounded to me like you were saying that the only reason for signing or =
encrypting the ID Token is to secure it as it passes through the front =
channel. That is not the case, as Dick explained.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Fortunately, I don=E2=80=99t think any of this matters as far =
as the charter is concerned. It is sufficient for the charter to say =
that identity is in scope. The specific mechanism(s) can and should be =
determined by the working group, in the context of a draft =
specification. Including a particular problem within the scope of the =
working group does not mean that the working group has to invent a brand =
new way to solve that problem. It just means that we<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i class=3D"">can</i>invent =
something new, if we determine it is worthwhile to do so.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">=E2=80=93&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">AWS Identity<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Thursday, January 30, =
2020 at 11:23 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Kim =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" =
class=3D"">kim@identityblog.com</a>&gt;, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" =
class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [UNVERIFIED SENDER] =
Re: The need for signed claims - providence<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My point was disagreeing =
with your assertion:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-left: 30pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">First, I =
don=E2=80=99t believe there are going to be many, if any, cases where we =
need user claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core =
transaction messages.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Sharing the entire transaction with&nbsp;services that only =
need specific claims would go against the minimal disclosure =
tenet.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at =
11:55 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I did: My response to your point was that we should enable =
this kind of thing but not assume that user claims are going to be =E2=80=94=
 or need to be =E2=80=94 in a signed payload. I think that what you=E2=80=99=
re describing is a specific architecture decision which is not that =
common. It shouldn=E2=80=99t be disallowed but I don=E2=80=99t think =
other deployments should pay that cost.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Even in OIDC today, you=E2=80=99re =
allowed to ignore the signature on the signed ID Token if it gets =
delivered on the back channel. In the normal case, a JWT provides just =
an extra layer of wrapping without much value. Please see Aaron=E2=80=99s =
post for a better writeup of that.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">So in the end, I think that plain JSON should be enabled for =
user claims (which XAuth also has, I=E2=80=99ll note) along with any =
type of packaged assertion like an ID Token (which I=E2=80=99ll note =
that XYZ also has).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jan 30, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Dick Hardt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Justin: would you respond to my =
critique of your statement? I was not talking about SETs.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Tl;dr: multiple services in a pipeline =
in a complex app may need to independently verify a claim.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><img border=3D"0" id=3D"_x0000_i1025" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D03e26191-cfe7-43dc-900c-1500ddf37=
cf0" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: =
&quot;Euphemia UCAS&quot;, sans-serif; color: white;" =
class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, =
Jan 29, 2020 at 10:19 PM Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:=
 none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think the use cases for SET are very =
different from an authentication assertion, which is consumed then =
discarded. Aaron Parecki has written a good blog post that touches on =
this:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/18/17/adding-identity-to-xyz</=
a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If we need a persistent record then we =
can also send that =E2=80=94 maybe it=E2=80=99s even a SET instead of an =
ID Token? I=E2=80=99m still fine with enabling signed JWTs to carry =
information, but what I was against was stating any assumption that they =
would always be signed or encrypted, and that JWT would be the assumed =
carrier for that.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jan 30, 2020, at 1:00 AM, Richard =
Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1 to Dick=E2=80=99s =
counterpoints.&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-http-push-07#secti=
on-5.4" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">The Security Considerations in =
draft-ietf-secevent-http-push</a>&nbsp;talk about validation of =
persisted SETs as one reason a deployment may wish to transmit signed =
SETs even over a TLS-protected channel. The same idea applies to =
identity claims or just about anything else, really.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">=E2=80=93&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard =
Backman</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">AWS Identity</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:&nbsp;</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:&nbsp;</b>Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 2:16 PM<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:&nbsp;</b>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:&nbsp;</b>"<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">txauth@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Kim &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kim@identityblog.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">kim@identityblog.com</a>&gt;, Torsten Lodderstedt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:&nbsp;</b>[UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: The need for signed =
claims - providence</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I forgot to include the =
reference to Annabelle calling this out earlier<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ43fN=
1o886w" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline;" =
class=3D"">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/0hR49OnE3oqNPuCIQ4=
3fN1o886w</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at =
1:14 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Forking the discussion to =
focus on signed claims<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at =
3:37 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&lt;snip&gt;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">First, I don=E2=80=99t =
believe there are going to be many, if any, cases where we need user =
claims to be signed and encrypted separately from the core transaction =
messages. Even in OIDC, the ID Token is allowed to be unsigned when it =
is retrieved from the token endpoint directly using the code flow. The =
equivalent of this is the only place that TxAuth would be sending back =
user claims directly. We no longer have a need to protect things as they =
travel through the front channel on a redirect, and we no longer have a =
need to use the user=E2=80=99s claims as an artifact for things like =
session management (we can define a new artifact for that purpose that =
fits better). This effectively means that we don=E2=80=99t need to =
redefine the ID Token because we don=E2=80=99t need the equivalent of =
the ID token in the same way.. For the cases that we do need to define =
user claims, we should be defining them as a JSON object model. And I =
also believe that this JSON data model should not be intertwined with or =
constrained by the JWT claims registry. The OIDC claims registry can =
serve as influence and input to our user claims set if we choose, but I =
don=E2=80=99t think we should be intertwined with that either.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I disagree. I think it is likely that =
we will see an increase in signed claims and messages.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">In my opinion, the providence of a =
claim or message is far more important than protection during =
transit.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Client / AS =
non-repudiation</b>: when sensitive operations are performed relying on =
the contents of a claim, the Client will want repudiation that the AS or =
claims issuer made a claim.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Separation of duties in =
complex systems</b>: In large organizations, a major security threat is =
a malicious insider. Once an organization reaches a certain size, you =
assume there are people employed at the company that do not have the =
firms best interests in mind. One mitigation of this threat is done by =
separating what different teams can do with customer / sensitive data, =
requiring collusion to access or modify the data. Signed messages and =
claims simplify different components being able to independently verify =
a message or claim. Similarly, a component issuing a claim, has =
assurance that other components in the same system are not modifying it. =
Large organizations wrap external systems that do not support this with =
their own security mechanism -- but not all organizations are this =
sophisticated, and as they grow, retrofitting is difficult. Enabling end =
to end providence is a best practice in my opinion.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">User Consent Audit</b>: =
as privacy becomes a larger public topic, it is easy to imagine =
organizations wanting to prove that they obtained user information with =
consent. Rather than gathering user information directly from the user, =
a Client can acquire claims from the User's claims provider that asserts =
the user provided consent to the Client. The Client can then technically =
establish that all user data was gathered with consent, and the context =
of the consent.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">While the message containing the claims =
may be signed, having independent claims separately signed simplifies =
the least privilege tenet, where a component only has access to the user =
information it needs..&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">/Dick</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></d=
iv></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></=
div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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> On Jan 30, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 1:05 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> On Jan 30, 2020, at 12:25 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:26 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>> I think XAuth has an interesting take on the problem space that =
TxAuth is looking to solve, but in my opinion it generally veers too =
closely to OAuth2/OIDC/JWT in its solution approach.
>>=20
>> Reusing aspects of OAuth2/OIDC/JWT that are working fine for =
deployments will minimize the migration effort for them to take =
advantage of the security features of this work such as not using the =
redirect for passing parameters. I think XAuth supports the following =
clause of the current draft charter: "the group will attempt to simplify =
porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the new protocol where =
possible.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> I understand the goals here, but I disagree that using the constructs =
as directly as they have been here is the most appropriate approach.
>=20
> Ok. I think we have reasonable clarity on the disagreement.
> =20
>=20
>>=20
>> <snip>
>> =20
>> 1. XAuth removes =E2=80=9Chandles=E2=80=9D as stand-ins for various =
elements. In XYZ, the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D concept is a key =
abstraction point with specific semantics. A =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D is =
an identifier to a specific instantiation of a JSON object structure. =
Using the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D for Keys, for Resources, and even the =
whole Transaction lets you do a lot of core things in a parallel and =
reusable way. XAuth re-invents a few of these as separate items, listed =
below, and I see this as a regression.
>>=20
>> XAuth took the transaction handle and forked it into a completion =
handle and a refresh handle so that it is clear what the Client is =
wanting to happen.
>>=20
>> It was not clear the value of the other handles that were listed in =
XYZ.=20
>=20
> I think this may be that you misunderstood the purposes of the =
handles, as you=E2=80=99ve reinvented nearly all of them with different =
labels in XAuth. :)
>=20
> I understand what a handle is, and what it represents. It appears that =
the handles provide a reference to the display, resource, user, and key =
objects. XYZ says the AS may issue those, but I could not find determine =
when the AS sends them back to the RC. I understand the value of the =
transaction handle XYZ, and built on that in XAuth, but XAuth always =
sends the display, resource, user and key information by value, not by =
reference, so your statement=20
>=20
> you=E2=80=99ve reinvented nearly all of them with different labels in =
XAuth
>=20
> is confusing.

I think what you=E2=80=99re missing is that the dynamically generated =
handles are not the only handles in the system. In addition, you=E2=80=99r=
e making assumptions about how to generate a handle given a piece of =
information, and how the client gets access to the handle for its use in =
the request. I think that=E2=80=99s why you=E2=80=99re not realizing =
that you=E2=80=99re effectively removing, renaming, and replacing them =
in XAuth, but with what I believe and understand to be  less robust =
capabilities and semantics.=20

The various handles in XYZ can come about in two ways.=20

1. They=E2=80=99re generated dynamically by the AS in response to a =
client request. These are the values returned from the tx endpoint, and =
I believe this is the use case that you understand better. This is to =
handle dynamic, non-emphemeral clients that are capable of remembering =
something in between requests. The client always has the option of =
sending its information by value, but the handle gives it a short form =
reference that it can use instead. The transaction handle is just =
another instance of this type of handle, since it=E2=80=99s generated on =
the fly.=20

2. They=E2=80=99re assigned by the AS in some static or manual fashion. =
These values could be returned by a developer console page, where the =
developer or admin goes and statically registers the client=E2=80=99s =
various values (keys, resources, etc) and returns the associated =
handles. The developer then statically configures these values into the =
client =E2=80=94 such as the key handle, discussed in depth below. If =
the developer updates the information in the registration, I wouldn=E2=80=99=
t expect the handle values to change. Nothing says that they should be =
derived from the information they represent, as unguessable unique =
values are fine for most of these cases. Resource handles are likely to =
be shared across multiple clients, so they=E2=80=99re very likely to be =
statically configured, and in addition are likely to also be =
human-readable.=20

Part of the power of XYZ is that these handles have the same model in =
both cases =E2=80=94 the string is a reference to an object that could =
be passed by value as well. Flexibility in how these handles are created =
and=20

> =20
>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> 2. XAuth uses a Client ID from OAuth 2. I removed Client IDs from XYZ =
because I realized that you don=E2=80=99t need them anymore. The client =
ID tells the AS which client is talking in the front channel because the =
client can=E2=80=99t authenticate. In the back channel, the key (or =
secret) identifier is enough to identify the client =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99=
s the Key Handle in XYZ that can be passed in lieu of the key itself. =
The argument that it=E2=80=99s helpful to have an identifier for doing =
developer support and managing registrations is spurious, since this is =
an internal identifier that never needs to be exposed by the protocol. =
Additionally, a client ID assumes a registration-based model. There are =
ephemeral and per-device client instances like SPA=E2=80=99s and mobile =
apps that don=E2=80=99t really fit the client ID model very well. =
Pushing this requirement on all clients is bad, as we=E2=80=99ve seen in =
OAuth 1 and OAuth 2. XAuth tries to manage this by splitting clients =
into two camps, but I=E2=80=99m saying that no client needs and external =
client ID.
>>=20
>> I addressed this in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12> # =
7
>>=20
>>  7.   *Why is there still a Client ID?  Could we not use a =
fingerprint
>>         of the public key to identify the Client?*
>>=20
>>         Some AS deployments do not allow calls from Registered =
Clients,
>>         and provide different functionality to different Clients.  A
>>         permanent identifier for the Client is needed for the Client
>>         developer and the AS admin to ensure they are referring to =
the
>>         same Client.  The Client ID was used in OAuth 2.0, and it =
served
>>         the same purpose
>>=20
>> Perhaps you did not see that?
>=20
> I did see that and I addressed it in my comment. The AS admin and =
developer can still refer to an internal identifier without it being =
exposed in the protocol.=20
>=20
> There needs to be some shared identifier in the protocol, would you =
not agree? For Registered Clients, the AS needs to have an identifier to =
look up the data it has for the Client.=20
>=20
> What is broken with Client ID? What identifier are you proposing in =
XYZ?

I am proposing that the key information takes the place of the client ID =
for all kinds of clients. As discussed below, the key handle is not a =
key ID or a key hash =E2=80=94 but more on that in a bit. What=E2=80=99s =
important is that it=E2=80=99s an identifier that the AS can look at and =
ask itself, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ve seen this ID, what authentication =
method and policy should I use for its requests?=E2=80=9D This is the =
first step in an OAuth 2 AS implementation, where the AS sees the client =
ID and asks =E2=80=9Cwhat authentication method and policy should I use =
for this request?=E2=80=9D This is why I see the key handle =E2=80=94 =
and not a higher level construct like a client handle / client ID =E2=80=94=
 as the component that you would branch your decisions off of at the AS. =
Once I=E2=80=99ve validated the key, whether by value or by reference, I =
now know which client I=E2=80=99m talking to. I don=E2=80=99t need a =
separate client identifier. I know that we don=E2=80=99t do it this way =
in OAuth 2, and I think that=E2=80=99s a limiting decision that we=E2=80=99=
ve gotten incorrect.

In the mental model of XYZ, the policy is then tied to whatever software =
that key represents, and since keys aren=E2=80=99t shared between =
clients, you get the property of a unique identification system as well. =
For dynamic clients, they don=E2=80=99t have to send an ID at all =E2=80=94=
 they send the key itself by value, since the ID won=E2=80=99t reference =
anything that the AS knows about. So we have an identifier for the =
clients that want a stable reference, a method for passing values for =
clients that don=E2=80=99t have a stable reference, and a clear way to =
upgrade from passing by value to passing by reference for clients that =
want to do the equivalent of =E2=80=9CDynamic Registration=E2=80=9D. =
There are a number of deployments where DynReg is used :just: to give =
clients in the field a client ID because OAuth 2 requires a client ID, =
and there=E2=80=99s a key that=E2=80=99s recognized during the DynReg =
process. But if the server can recognize my key, I ask: why not just =
start there when you do the request? You can=E2=80=99t in OAuth 2 =
because of the redirect-first model and keys don=E2=80=99t even show up =
there. You can in TxAuth because the model allows the client to talk to =
the AS directly first, and present its keys.=20

I=E2=80=99ll again say that this is a pattern that=E2=80=99s applicable =
across all of the different =E2=80=9Chandles=E2=80=9D within the XYZ =
protocol. I propose that you could bootstrap an AS-initiated and =
RS-first protocol by having another component create a transaction =
handle to kick things off. As discussed below, resource handles can be =
static or dynamic as well.=20


And it=E2=80=99s really important to know that handles do not need to =
match or be derived from the information that they represent. XYZ =
intentionally does not tie these together tightly. A key, like a JWK or =
certificate, is going to have its own internal identifier, and there=E2=80=
=99s nothing that says the key ID needs to be equal to that or rotate =
with that. But what if the AS wants to use a key hash as the key handle? =
That=E2=80=99s not required (or even suggested) in XYZ either -- but if =
it does, then that=E2=80=99s something that both the client and AS need =
to update. The AS will need to update its key reference, which means it =
will update its key hash, which means it will recognize the new key hash =
and tie it to the client record automatically. The client will need to =
update its key and send a new hash as its key handle to the AS. However, =
clients shouldn=E2=80=99t be expected to create a hash on their own =E2=80=
=94 it should update its key with the AS, and the AS should issue a key =
handle in response. Whether the AS creates that handle using a hash or =
not is not up to the client.=20



> =20
>=20
>>=20
>> I agree that dynamic client IDs in OAuth 2 were problematic. In =
XAuth, a Dynamic Client is identified by its key.
>>=20
>> Would you clarify what is broken with Client IDs for Registered =
Clients? It seems to working fine for registered clients in OAuth 2 / =
OpenID Connect, and migrating those deployments will be simpler if we =
keep the same concept.
>>=20
>> The key handle seems problematic as it will change when keys are =
rotated.=20
>=20
> Why would the key handle change when the key is rotated? Nothing in =
XYZ dictates how the key handle is generated by the AS or how the key =
handle is mapped to a specific key. It=E2=80=99s not a key identifier, =
which is why I haven=E2=80=99t called it a =E2=80=9Ckey id=E2=80=9D.=20
>=20
> I mistyped, I intended to say key fingerprint, which obviously changes =
when the key is rotated.
>=20
> I reread the XYZ Key Handle section ... and you are suggesting it =
represents the Client instance, but it is not clear how the AS maps that =
to preregistered client information.

Right, the key handle doesn=E2=80=99t need to rotate when the key itself =
is rotated =E2=80=94 see the discussion above.

> =20
>=20
> I don=E2=80=99t see why a registered client can=E2=80=99t be =
identified by its key just like a dynamic client would be. What is the =
value in this split? I think there=E2=80=99s value in treating all =
clients the same and driving the differences in policy on the AS. Either =
I recognize a key handle, or I am being given a public key (which I also =
might recognize). In all of these cases the AS gets to run its policy =
against the party identified by the key.
>=20
> To clarify, your proposal is that the public key, or a fingerprint of =
it, is what the AS uses to look up a preregistered Client?

No, my proposal is that a public key is what the AS uses to recognize a =
preregistered client, and that public key can be represented by a =
handle. I would expect the handle to be stable over time, like a client =
ID, but more specific.=20

In OAuth 2, the client ID wraps together all of the different aspects of =
the client and its associated policies. In XYZ, I sought to separate =
those into different handles because, as we=E2=80=99ve found in OAuth 2, =
different parts of the client system can vary over time. Our notion of =
what a =E2=80=9Cclient=E2=80=9D is in OAuth 2 is also pretty vague. We =
have developers all over the place sharing client IDs between different =
web servers (production and development environments, for example), =
different instances of software (mobile applications, SPAs, and =
=E2=80=9Cpublic=E2=80=9D clients), and different pieces of software =
altogether (micro-components that are tied together in a single =
pseudo-app). And we also have the explosion of Client IDs for apps using =
DynReg for things like ephemeral instances that get used once and then =
stop existing.=20

>=20
> =20
>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> 3. XAuth uses a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field for interaction. This =
means the client can only do one type of interaction for any given =
transaction. XYZ started like this, but we moved away from it because we =
realized we could have a client app that could handle multiple types =
without that kind of dispatch. In XYZ the client sends over flags for =
each kind of interaction it can do: send the user to an arbitrary URL, =
give the user a code, get a callback from a browser, etc. Combining =
these in specific ways addresses all of the different methods that XAuth =
identifies as its types while also allowing additional things. The AS =
picks from the client=E2=80=99s list based on what the AS can support as =
well as what makes sense for the policies governing the requested =
access.
>>=20
>> Do you have a use case where the AS will want to pick from a list, =
rather than supporting the one that the Client wants to use?
>=20
> The AS would return interaction responses that are the intersection =
of:
>=20
>  - methods the client indicates it can do in the request
>  - methods the AS knows it can support
>  - methods allowed by the policy governing the request
>=20
> I don=E2=80=99t understand the second part of this question, because =
the AS still =E2=80=9Csupports the one the client wants to use=E2=80=9D =
in the XYZ model.
>=20
> I'm looking for a use case where the AS needs to select from a list, =
rather than use the one mechanism that the Client wants to use. Why the =
extra negotiation?

The AS isn=E2=80=99t selecting a single value from the list. It=E2=80=99s =
responding to what the client wants to use, and it could respond to all =
of them. If the client wants to use one mechanism, it sends only one =
mechanism. XYZ enables all of the functions of XAuth=E2=80=99s =
interaction methods, and then some.

> =20
>=20
> As for a concrete example, look at how we handle the =E2=80=9Cqrcode=E2=80=
=9D interaction case, based on OAuth 2=E2=80=99s device flow. In this, =
you want to send a URI to the client that it can render as a QR code as =
well as a code that the user can type into a page, in case they can=E2=80=99=
t scan the QR code. OAuth 2 manages this by having a user code as well =
as a pre-composed URL containing the code to be used for rendering. XYZ =
used to have a mode for this similar to XAuth, but we realized that we =
could describe this using two separate flags:=20
>=20
>  - I can communicate a short code that the user can type in at a =
static URL
>  - I can get the user to go to an arbitrary URL
>=20
> The second one is the same mechanism we can use for redirect-based =
auth.=20
>=20
> I got that. I thought being more crisp in the interaction makes it =
easier for implementors to understand.=20

I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s more crisp, I think it=E2=80=99s more =
limiting, and it leads to more confusing code paths. Having implemented =
both styles in XYZ in several languages, I vastly prefer the current XYZ =
style.=20

When you have the =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field, you then have to specify =
what different responses mean in the context of different types, like =
what XAuth does in =C2=A74.2. In XYZ, the response fields have a single =
meaning, and the client does what it can with them. I think it=E2=80=99s =
presumptuous to assume =E2=80=9Cqrcode=E2=80=9D as a scannable format, =
for instance. Does the AS actually care how the client communicates the =
URL to the user? Not really. Even if we were to optimize this for the =
client and have the AS return an image instead of a URL, I think the AS =
should be able to return an arbitrary image for the client to display to =
the user.=20

>=20
> =20
>=20
>>=20
>> In the case where the AS interacts with an RO that is not the User, =
there would be nothing the Client would need to do. Perhaps there is a =
use case for something different? If so, please elaborate.
>> =20
>>=20
>> 4. XAuth allows OAuth-style scopes next to RAR-style data structures =
(and next to OIDC claims structures). They are treated as completely =
separate from each other. In OAuth 2, RAR is defined in the context of =
scope (and resource and audience and other parameters), and this =
combination is a matter of some debate still that needs to be solved. =
However, it=E2=80=99s clear that they=E2=80=99re combined. In XYZ, the =
only resource request defined is the object inside the resource request. =
You can mimic =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D behavior by using a Resource =
Handle, which again is defined as a single string that stands in for the =
whole object and could be defined by the AS (or the API it=E2=80=99s =
protecting).=20
>>=20
>> I think you need to reread the 00 draft. Only one type of =
authorization request is allowed.
>>=20
>> - OAuth style for deployments where that works fine.
>> - RAR style for deployments that need the extra granularity of RAR
>> - list of RAR style for deployments that support multiple resource =
servers that require independent access tokens.
>> =20
>>=20
>> 5. The different kinds of authz requests in (4) create separate =
tokens.This is very different from both OAuth 2 and XYZ, where you get =
back a single access token. And in XAuth there is no way to get, for =
example, two access tokens that are both described by RAR requests, so =
this seems like a very arbitrary and syntactically-driven separation.=20
>>=20
>> I don't think you understood what is in the draft. See above.
>=20
> Apologies on these points =E2=80=94 I didn=E2=80=99t catch that this =
had changed from the earlier drafts.=20
>=20
> We can scratch this concern from the list then. Yeah!

Well, kind of =E2=80=94 XAuth doesn=E2=80=99t allow the combination of =
an API-specified element (a scope, a simple string value) and a more =
fine grained access request. I believe this kind of combination is going =
to be essential for transition from OAuth2. XYZ manages things =
differently by putting the =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D like values (resource =
handles) at the same level and in the same array structure as the =
RAR-style complex values. This way, I can ask for access to access to a =
legacy API and a fine-grained request at the same time, and get an =
access token that is good for both. A =E2=80=9Cresource handle=E2=80=9D =
is a =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D, since an OAuth 2 scope represents some =
bundle of rights and/or information that the client is requesting, =
represented as a simple string. These can be defined statically by the =
API (or the AS) and configured manually in the client. Why not call it a =
=E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D then? Because they can *also* be dynamically =
given to the client during the XYZ process.=20

RAR also enables this in OAuth2, but does so using the existing =
=E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D field with its existing syntax and semantics. =
This is a little bit more problematic because they exist at different =
levels of the request, but defining clear combination semantics is one =
of the things that RAR needs to do, and to get right.

I do not see a way to do this combination with XAuth=E2=80=99s model, =
and that seems to be a deliberate decision, which I find unnecessarily =
limiting.=20

> =20
>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> 6. The assumption that JOSE will always be in the toolkit of the =
client developer is not true. You can do an XYZ transaction without any =
JOSE =E2=80=94 for example, using HTTP Sig or MTLS for key presentation.=20=

>>=20
>> Per earlier feedback from you, I have strived to separate JOSE out =
into Section 8, so that an extension could use HTTP signing or MTLS. Let =
me know where JOSE is still an assumption.
>=20
> The separation is OK in the current draft, but it still states that =
JOSE is the default, and by implication, preferred.=20
>=20
> Yes. I think freedom from having to make a choice makes things easier =
to implement and deploy.=20
> For deployments where another mechanism will be significantly better, =
the choice is available. =E2=80=98

These statements contradict each other. Are you advocating for =
=E2=80=9Cfreedom from choice=E2=80=9D or that the =E2=80=9Cchoice is =
available=E2=80=9D for this particular feature? I am arguing in favor of =
making choice available in the case of key presentation and removing =
choice in terms of request format (as in, the core payload).=20

>=20
> Is there something about JOSE that you think is problematic to make it =
the default?

Yes, it leads to reliance on putting everything of note in the JOSE =
payload as part of the base protocol. As explained previously, I want to =
be able to use HTTP as more than an entity body carrier. We should be =
using headers and methods and URLs =E2=80=94 and importantly, content =
types. I think JOSE should be switched with things like Content-Type =
headers and Accept headers, and that JSON bodies should be the default =
as they=E2=80=99re more universal across different signing and =
presentation mechanisms.=20

My Java XYZ implementation does use JOSE, but by using JWS in a detached =
fashion to sign the body instead of an internal fashion. The reason for =
this is that it allows the request and response to be =
=E2=80=9Capplication/json=E2=80=9D and not =E2=80=9Capplication/jws=E2=80=9D=
.=20

In all of these cases, I do not think it is a good idea to use JWT =
claims in the TxAuth request or response namespaces. Where we use JOSE, =
we should avoid JWT.

> =20
>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> 7. The statement that =E2=80=9Cthere is no HTTP signing=E2=80=9D is =
false, as this is being brought up to the HTTP WG right now (I=E2=80=99m =
one of the co-authors). Yes, it=E2=80=99s not an RFC, but neither is =
this. And if we=E2=80=99re doing agile signature methods, which I =
contend is a required extension point, then we don=E2=80=99t have a =
dependency requirement for it.=20
>>=20
>> XAuth says from =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-12> # =
3
>>=20
>> There is currently no widely deployed open standard for HTTP signing. =
=20
>> =20
>> Yes, there is working going on. But security it is not a published =
RFC, there are no libraries for it, and it has not been tested on the =
open internet.=20
>>=20
>> While I wish the HTTP WG luck in this work, and I support it =
happening, it will be hard.
>>=20
>> OAuth 1.0 core issue was that it was signing a request (in my =
opinion)
>=20
> Which is why we shouldn=E2=80=99t have a normative dependency on it =
until it=E2=80=99s done, but ignoring it entirely is silly. I=E2=80=99ve =
always said this needs to be one among many options.
>=20
> I was not ignoring it. When it is done, an extension can be written on =
how to use HTTP Signing. Or the extension could be developed at the same =
time.
>=20

The means of using HTTP Signing in TxAuth are already pretty clear, and =
I=E2=80=99ve implemented it in XYZ based on the existing Cavage draft =
that is being used as input to the HTTP WG.

>=20
> =20
>=20
>>=20
>> The widely deployed HTTP Signing is AWS SIGv4 -- which AWS supplies =
libraries for every API in all popular languages so that developers =
don't have to do the HTTP signing themselves.=20
>>=20
>> I could imagine AWS adopting XAuth and using SIGv4 instead of JOSE if =
they wanted.
>=20
> I agree that they should be able to use TxAuth (not necessarily XAuth =
;) ) using SIGv4, if they wanted =E2=80=94 and that=E2=80=99s assuming =
they don=E2=80=99t move AWS to HTTP Sig. :)
>=20
> Moving AWS to HTTP Sig is very, very unlikely, having worked there. =
Having an easy path to utilize XAuth / TxAuth is a good goal for the =
resulting work.

I still agree that they should be able to easily use TxAuth, which just =
a stronger argument for the signature/proofing mechanism to be a =
pluggable thing and that the request/response bodies not be JOSE objects =
but JSON objects.

> =20
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> 8. XAuth adds back in an explicit =E2=80=9Crefresh token=E2=80=9D. In =
XYZ, we don=E2=80=99t have a refresh token because we can use the =
transaction handle to continue the transaction after a token has been =
issued. This has explicit and clear semantics that follows from what the =
transaction handle is used for elsewhere in the protocol =E2=80=94 =
continue this request that=E2=80=99s in some authorization state and =
give me the results.=20
>>=20
>> I think we agree that refresh is a required feature.
>=20
> Yes, and I think that the constructs are similar, but the difference =
matters. By using the same handle for continuing the transaction over =
time as you do for refreshing, XYZ is giving the client developers a =
specific model: The transaction itself has a state and value over time, =
referenced by the transaction handle. The transaction entity still =
exists after it=E2=80=99s been approved and a token has been issued, but =
the things you can do with it are different (see below).
>=20
> The word transaction is muddying what I think you are suggesting here. =
It more like a conversation. Transactions from a DB point of view are a =
set of actions that all happen, or none happen.

I=E2=80=99ve explained previously that the database interpretation is =
not the only or full interpretation of the word =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=
=9D here, so I won=E2=80=99t go back into it. Conversation is perhaps =
more accurate, but =E2=80=9CCxAuth=E2=80=9D is a problematic acronym. =
:-D

> =20
>=20
> Both continuation and refresh are saying to the AS =E2=80=9Crun this =
transaction again and if I can get a token (or claims or whatever) in =
its current state, give me that=E2=80=9D. However, they can=E2=80=99t =
really exist at the same time, so having two separate items to ask the =
same question doesn=E2=80=99t make much sense.=20
>=20
> They have different purposes. The completion (now authorization) =
handle is to check if the AS is done with its request processing, and if =
so, provide the results, which includes zero or more identity claims, =
and zero or more access tokens/handles.
>=20
> The refresh handle is to refresh a specific access token/handle.
>=20

I don=E2=80=99t see these as being different, and that=E2=80=99s where =
we disagree. The access token is the end result of the processing. =
Refreshing is an act of continuing that processing. I do not see a good =
argument for treating them separately.=20

> =20
>=20
>>=20
>> I think a transaction handle is to course grained. I don't think that =
the AS should be returning all the claims in a refresh. And if there are =
multiple access tokens returned from the AS, then each has their own =
refresh handle.
>=20
> I think this requires a deeper discussion, since the whole idea of =
multiple access tokens is a very different kind of approach here.=20
>=20
> It is a feature of XAuth.=20

Kind of. XAuth allows multiple access tokens in one limited context, and =
only when using rich authorization requests to do so. I would rather see =
us have a general mechanism that allows us to get multiple access tokens =
in a way that=E2=80=99s parallel to how you get one access token.

>=20
> In OAuth today, the bearer token is like a movie ticket. Whoever has =
the movie ticket gets in the movie.
> Using OAuth to obtain a bearer token is like buying a movie ticket.
>=20
> Sometimes I want to go to more than one movie. OAuth today makes me =
wait in line to buy each ticket. Why not let me buy multiple tickets at =
once?

That=E2=80=99s not true. You can get one ticket that=E2=80=99s good for =
two movies, to borrow your metaphor.=20

The semantics of requesting multiple access tokens in parallel is =
something the working group might want to consider. I am not a fan of =
how XAuth handles this, with packing things into the authorization list. =
I think it=E2=80=99s a concept we should consider though.

> =20
>=20
> I see refresh much as it is in OAuth2 and UMA, where it refers to the =
authorization that was granted. This means that you can do downscoping =
to get lower-powered access tokens that are a subset of the overall =
grant, and I think that TxAuth should be able to do a step-up auth where =
you can build some additional request on top of an existing approval.=20
>=20
> Is "step-up auth" authentication or authorization, ... or both?

I think the question you asked is unintentionally misleading because =
=E2=80=9Cstep up=E2=80=9D authentication could be seen from the client =
or the AS=E2=80=99s perspective.=20

The =E2=80=9Cstep up=E2=80=9D that I mean here is from the client=E2=80=99=
s perspective, not from the AS/IdP=E2=80=99s perspective. The client =
wants more of something =E2=80=94 more access to an API, more user =
information, etc. It=E2=80=99s likely that the AS is going to want to =
interact with the user to include whatever additional access the client =
is asking for, but the client doesn=E2=80=99t want to start from =
scratch. You=E2=80=99ve got a ticket that=E2=80=99s good to see one =
movie, and you want to add another movie to it for after. The theater =
already knows who you are and how to get your money, so they can just =
add it on.

It=E2=80=99s entirely feasible that the process of asking for more =
information would prompt the AS to re-authenticate the user, including =
prompting them for additional credentials. However, from the client=E2=80=99=
s view, that=E2=80=99s a side-effect of its request.

>=20
> =20
>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> 9. XAuth uses OIDC=E2=80=99s ID Token. As I=E2=80=99ve said on the =
other thread, I don=E2=80=99t think we actually need a separately signed =
assertion. I=E2=80=99d rather see a way to sign the entire response =
which includes the user claims, if we want signature protection.
>>=20
>> I responded in a separate thread.
>> =20
>>=20
>> 10. XAuth sends all the user=E2=80=99s claims on the login request =
=E2=80=94 or more precisely, this is the only mechanism specified and =
the Rationale section claims this is a feature. This violates minimal =
disclosure and privacy design guidelines, and this type of protocol has =
been developed before with OpenID 1.x/2.x and SAML. The problem here =
unfolds when you think about how it works: The RP needs to log in. If =
this is the first time it=E2=80=99s seen this user, then it needs the =
user=E2=80=99s profile info. If not, and the profile info hasn=E2=80=99t =
changed, there=E2=80=99s no need for it and the AS shouldn=E2=80=99t =
send it. So the RP can signal this, right? Except that the RP doesn=E2=80=99=
t know who the user is yet (that=E2=80=99s why they=E2=80=99re making =
this call!). Can the AS make this call? They won=E2=80=99t know if the =
RP has cached the user=E2=80=99s info or not. And if we=E2=80=99re using =
Client ID, then the AS can=E2=80=99t even be sure that this copy of the =
client is the same as another copy of the client. I think TxAuth needs =
to minimize the user claims sent back to being an identifier, =
information about the authentication event that could change each time =
anyway, and anything that would be needed to control a cache. Additional =
fields can be pulled from the equivalent of a UserInfo Endpoint in a =
two-stage process that both preserves privacy and optimizes for what=E2=80=
=99s available from each party.
>>=20
>> Not clear how XYZ improves on this.
>=20
> XYZ does not currently internally specify how to hand user info back, =
but I was looking at something in line with what Aaron Parecki=E2=80=99s =
blog post specified last summer.=20
>=20
>>=20
>> The UserInfo Endpoint solves the Client getting more info than it =
needs, but the User still needs to give consent each time unless the AS =
tracks it. So it is unclear to me what value the UserInfo Endpoint =
brings.
>=20
> Remembering user consent and delivering claims are two completely =
separate problems and should not be conflated here. I was addressing the =
former.=20
>=20
> They are related though. If you are not wanting to ask for consent on =
each delivery, how do you know you have consent?

We are talking past each other. They=E2=80=99re related in the sense =
that they=E2=80=99re both a part of the authorization process, but =
consenting to the release of information and the delivery of that =
information are completely separate from each other.=20

Consent is not the client=E2=80=99s policy, that=E2=80=99s the AS=E2=80=99=
s policy. My consent is stored on the AS. The client can't know if this =
is the =E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=80=9D time or not because it doesn=E2=80=99t =
know who I am yet, so it can=E2=80=99t ask if I should consent again. If =
the client knows who I am, it doesn=E2=80=99t need to ask the AS to log =
me in in the first place.=20

However, once I=E2=80=99m interacting with the AS, the AS has a chance =
of figuring things out. The AS can determine if it=E2=80=99s seen the =
same client before, if it=E2=80=99s seen the same user before, and if =
the same client is making the same request for the same user, and the AS =
knows that it can make that decision without prompting the user. We =
already do exactly this today with OAuth 2 and OIDC systems.=20

But the AS does :not: know which profile and identity claims the client =
actually :needs:. The only party able to make that decision is the =
client, and it can only make that decision once it has a reference to =
which user is there (in terms of an identifier). The AS can (and I argue =
should) give the client some kind of key for helping make that decision.=20=


The push of user information into an OAuth-protected API, and separating =
it from the authentication context, is one of the best parts of OpenID =
Connect. Yes, the client can always request the user info as long as it =
has the access token =E2=80=94 and to me that=E2=80=99s a feature, =
because the client is the component that knows when it needs updated =
info.=20

> =20
>=20
>>=20
>> Your comments have inspired me on a solution that can be done with =
XAuth (or XYZ) that can't be done with OAuth 2.0/OIDC.
>>=20
>> I'll add that to the XAuth draft and publish it.=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> 11. XAuth defines an explicit discovery step because the client now =
needs to know several things about the server. The mix-up attack and a =
few other attacks in OAuth 2 stem from this kind of process. In XYZ, the =
client really only needs to know the transaction endpoint URL and it =
learns everything else from that point. Yes, the client needs to =
discover that someplace =E2=80=94 but it was a deliberate decision in =
limiting the amount of upfront information that the client needs to get =
started.
>>=20
>> That is still discovery, is it not?
>=20
> I literally just called it that in the sentence above, so yes. :) What =
you=E2=80=99re discovering is different though. And doesn=E2=80=99t the =
client still need to =E2=80=9Cdiscover=E2=80=9D the discovery endpoint =
in XAuth?
>=20
> What discovery endpoint? =20

The charter currently includes =E2=80=9CAS discovery=E2=80=9D, per your =
request to add it. To me, and I would argue to most, =E2=80=9Cdiscovery=E2=
=80=9D is a programmatic process. If it=E2=80=99s manual, it=E2=80=99s =
not really the client =E2=80=9Cdiscovering=E2=80=9D anything, it=E2=80=99s=
 being told things manually by a developer. That=E2=80=99s not discovery =
as the term is generally known, and I think this is a key source of =
confusion here. There is no =E2=80=9Cdiscovery=E2=80=9D that=E2=80=99s =
not programmatic =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s configuration.

>=20
>>=20
>> Would the Client not need to know the message signing methods =
supported? JOSE, HTTP Signing, and/or MTLS?=20
>=20
> Only required if the client can programmatically do anything about =
that. The truth is that just about every client is going to be =
configured to do one kind of signing, and the developer can usually =
discover that. I don=E2=80=99t see a problem with having it listed in a =
discovery document next to the transaction endpoint, but I think we =
don=E2=80=99t actually need it because of the items below:
>=20
>> =20
>> I=E2=80=99ve played with the concept of a =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D=
 list in XYZ, where the client would present a list of things it can do =
and the AS trims that list to what it can also do.
>>=20
>> So ... programatic discovery? =3D)
>>=20
>> Are you suggesting that discovery of everything but the endpoint has =
to be programatic?=20
>=20
> In no way, shape, or form am I implying that. I=E2=80=99m saying that =
the items that can be used for programmatic discovery can be returned =
from the transaction endpoint without need for a separate endpoint. This =
can even include the signing methods, and the round-trips for an =
automated client are basically the same.=20
>=20
> So take the XAuth approach:
>=20
> - client gets configured with the discovery endpoint=20
> - client calls discovery endpoint, self-configures
> - client calls tx endpoint
>=20
> Aaah now I see where we don't have common understanding ... that is =
not the XAuth approach at all.=20
>=20
>    1.  *AS Discovery* The Client discovers the AS end point, keys,
>        supported claims and authorizations, and other capabilities.
>        Some, or all of this information could be manually =
preconfigured,
>        or dynamically obtained.  Dynamic AS discovery is out of scope =
of
>        this document.
>  In other words, here is some information the Client will need. You =
will need to manually configure it, or there may be an option to obtain =
some or all of the information you need programatically. The programatic =
discovery is out of scope.
>=20
> Perhaps I need to improve the language?

Yes, if you mean manual configuration of elements, then that=E2=80=99s =
not discovery as the term is going to be understood by most.

>=20
>=20
> And the XYZ approach:
>=20
> - client gets configured with the tx endpoint
> - client calls tx endpoint, picks whatever default method it wants for =
signing (TxAuth spec can even declare a preferred version if we want)
> 	- if it works, tx has already started and things just continue =
=E2=80=94 this optimizes for the happy path
> 	- if it fails, client gets back information to allow it to =
self-configure and calls the tx endpoint again
>=20
> Most existing Clients are manually configured. The developer reads the =
AS documentation to learn what scopes and claims the AS supports, and =
then codes that into the Client. The XYZ approach above does not take =
that into account, and is in conflict with what you have below.=20
>=20

It does take it into account =E2=80=94 all of that can happen manually =
in XYZ. The developer can hard-code the tx endpoint, scopes, keys, and =
everything else. The developer can hard code handles to represent all of =
those that they=E2=80=99ve gotten through pre-registration. Or it can =
happen dynamically using the same mechanisms within the protocol. =
There=E2=80=99s not a conflict.

> In XAuth, I'm calling that out as a step, so the developer understands =
where that comes from. You effectively are saying the same thing below, =
so it is unclear what your concern with XAuth is.
>=20
> In XYZ, discovery is currently ignored.

In XYZ, the only value the client absolutely MUST know about is the tx =
endpoint. Discovery is not ignored, it=E2=80=99s trivial. And what =
you=E2=80=99re calling =E2=80=9CDiscovery=E2=80=9D is manual/static =
configuration, which is definitely covered. This can perhaps be made =
more clear, but it=E2=80=99s in there.

> =20
>=20
> This is what I mean by one-stage negotiation on the discovery. If the =
client gets it right, that=E2=80=99s fine and things just continue =
without the extra step. If the client gets it wrong, it=E2=80=99s given =
the equivalent of information from the discovery endpoint that it can =
either self correct (which it would be able to do if it could self =
configure from a discovery document) or it will throw an error (which is =
what it=E2=80=99d do if it gets a discovery document it can=E2=80=99t do =
anything with).=20
>=20
>=20
>> =20
>> This type of one-stage negotiation is really powerful and I think we =
can get a lot from it here.
>>=20
>> Sure ... but for many people what works today is documentation that =
someone reads to understand what to do. Are you suggesting we not enable =
that?
>=20
> I am not suggesting that we disallow human-readable documentation and =
static configuration. I have no idea where you got that I was suggesting =
that.
>=20
> Because you were not supportive of the discovery step in XAuth? And =
you made no mention of static configuration in your description, =
contrary to XAuth?  Hence me asking a probing question to get clarity.=20=

>=20

As stated in the intro to this email, static configuration was always =
part of XYZ=E2=80=99s model. And as stated above, =E2=80=9Cdiscovery=E2=80=
=9D fully implies it being programmatic. I don=E2=80=99t believe =
there=E2=80=99s a conflict in the way that you=E2=80=99re suggesting.

> Interpersonal communication hint:  when you have no idea on why =
someone is asking a clarifying question, ask yourself what might have =
been unclear in your communication. Then just answer the clarifying =
question.=20
> =20
>=20
> But to be clear, yes you can still document things and pre-configure =
them. In fact, I think that=E2=80=99s better handled in XYZ that allows =
the client to be pre-configured and get started with a TX request, and =
then recover better if things aren=E2=80=99t what it thought.
>=20
> XAuth documents what information is required, and that it can be =
pre-configured.=20

XYZ does the same, so I think we agree that this is an important aspect =
of TxAuth.

> =20
> Where in XYZ is the negotiation after the TX request? Sounds =
interesting, but I did not see it.

It=E2=80=99s not =E2=80=9Cafter=E2=80=9D so much as =E2=80=9Cpart of=E2=80=
=9D the request/response. =E2=80=9CNegotiation=E2=80=9D is a slippery =
word, as it often implies a back-and-forth multi-round process. I think =
that=E2=80=99s a problematic and complicated pattern. What I do think is =
useful is a single-trip, where the client starts things by declaring =
what it knows and can do, and the server responds with something that it =
can do that it now knows the client can do. TLS algorithm negotiation =
and HTTP content negotiation both work this way, and do so successfully =
without a complicated protocol.

If the client has been preconfigured to only ask for things the server =
can do, and if the client is configured to ask for only a single option, =
then it=E2=80=99s identical to the case where everything is static and =
making a single choice.=20

>=20
> /Dick
> =E1=90=A7


--Apple-Mail=_E8C7AA6A-E616-4321-8BA2-A11D237C5BC6
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 30, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 1:05 AM Justin =
Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D"">On Jan 30, 2020, at 12:25 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan =
29, 2020 at 8:26 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">I think XAuth has an =
interesting take on the problem space that TxAuth is looking to solve, =
but in my opinion it generally veers too closely to OAuth2/OIDC/JWT in =
its solution approach. </div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Reusing aspects of OAuth2/OIDC/JWT that =
are working fine for deployments will minimize the migration effort for =
them to take advantage of the security features of this work such as not =
using the redirect for passing parameters. I think XAuth supports the =
following clause of the current draft charter: "the group =
will&nbsp;attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect =
to the new protocol where =
possible.=E2=80=9D</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
understand the goals here, but I disagree that using the constructs as =
directly as they have been here is the most appropriate =
approach.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Ok. I think we have reasonable clarity =
on the disagreement.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&lt;snip&gt;</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. XAuth removes =
=E2=80=9Chandles=E2=80=9D as stand-ins for various elements. In XYZ, the =
=E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D concept is a key abstraction point with =
specific semantics. A =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D is an identifier to a =
specific instantiation of a JSON object structure. Using the =
=E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D for Keys, for Resources, and even the whole =
Transaction lets you do a lot of core things in a parallel and reusable =
way. XAuth re-invents a few of these as separate items, listed below, =
and I see this as a regression.</div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">XAuth took the =
transaction handle and forked it into a completion handle and a refresh =
handle so that it is clear what the Client is wanting to =
happen.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It was =
not clear the value of the other handles that were listed in =
XYZ.&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think this may =
be that you misunderstood the purposes of the handles, as you=E2=80=99ve =
reinvented nearly all of them with different labels in XAuth. =
:)</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">I understand what a handle is, and what it represents. It =
appears that the handles provide a reference to the display, resource, =
user, and key objects. XYZ says the AS may issue those, but I could not =
find determine when the AS sends them back to the RC. I understand the =
value of the transaction handle XYZ, and built on that in XAuth, but =
XAuth always sends the display, resource, user and key information by =
value, not by reference, so your statement&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
40px;border:none;padding:0px" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">you=E2=80=99ve reinvented nearly all of them with different =
labels in XAuth</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>is confusing.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
think what you=E2=80=99re missing is that the dynamically generated =
handles are not the only handles in the system. In addition, you=E2=80=99r=
e making assumptions about how to generate a handle given a piece of =
information, and how the client gets access to the handle for its use in =
the request. I think that=E2=80=99s why you=E2=80=99re not realizing =
that you=E2=80=99re effectively removing, renaming, and replacing them =
in XAuth, but with what I believe and understand to be &nbsp;less robust =
capabilities and semantics.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The =
various handles in XYZ can come about in two ways.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>1. They=E2=80=99re generated dynamically by the AS =
in response to a client request. These are the values returned from the =
tx endpoint, and I believe this is the use case that you understand =
better. This is to handle dynamic, non-emphemeral clients that are =
capable of remembering something in between requests. The client always =
has the option of sending its information by value, but the handle gives =
it a short form reference that it can use instead. The transaction =
handle is just another instance of this type of handle, since it=E2=80=99s=
 generated on the fly.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>2. =
They=E2=80=99re assigned by the AS in some static or manual fashion. =
These values could be returned by a developer console page, where the =
developer or admin goes and statically registers the client=E2=80=99s =
various values (keys, resources, etc) and returns the associated =
handles. The developer then statically configures these values into the =
client =E2=80=94 such as the key handle, discussed in depth below. If =
the developer updates the information in the registration, I wouldn=E2=80=99=
t expect the handle values to change. Nothing says that they should be =
derived from the information they represent, as unguessable unique =
values are fine for most of these cases. Resource handles are likely to =
be shared across multiple clients, so they=E2=80=99re very likely to be =
statically configured, and in addition are likely to also be =
human-readable.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Part of the =
power of XYZ is that these handles have the same model in both cases =E2=80=
=94 the string is a reference to an object that could be passed by value =
as well. Flexibility in how these handles are created and&nbsp;</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2. XAuth =
uses a Client ID from OAuth 2. I removed Client IDs from XYZ because I =
realized that you don=E2=80=99t need them anymore. The client ID tells =
the AS which client is talking in the front channel because the client =
can=E2=80=99t authenticate. In the back channel, the key (or secret) =
identifier is enough to identify the client =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s the =
Key Handle in XYZ that can be passed in lieu of the key itself. The =
argument that it=E2=80=99s helpful to have an identifier for doing =
developer support and managing registrations is spurious, since this is =
an internal identifier that never needs to be exposed by the protocol. =
Additionally, a client ID assumes a registration-based model. There are =
ephemeral and per-device client instances like SPA=E2=80=99s and mobile =
apps that don=E2=80=99t really fit the client ID model very well. =
Pushing this requirement on all clients is bad, as we=E2=80=99ve seen in =
OAuth 1 and OAuth 2. XAuth tries to manage this by splitting clients =
into two camps, but I=E2=80=99m saying that no client needs and external =
client ID.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I addressed this in&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-=
12" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#secti=
on-12</a>&nbsp;# 7</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before=
:page" class=3D""> 7.   *Why is there still a Client ID?  Could we not =
use a fingerprint
        of the public key to identify the Client?*

        Some AS deployments do not allow calls from Registered Clients,
        and provide different functionality to different Clients.  A
        permanent identifier for the Client is needed for the Client
        developer and the AS admin to ensure they are referring to the
        same Client.  The Client ID was used in OAuth 2.0, and it served
        the same purpose</pre><pre =
style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before=
:page" class=3D""><br class=3D""></pre></div><div class=3D"">Perhaps you =
did not see =
that?</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I did see that and I =
addressed it in my comment. The AS admin and developer can still refer =
to an internal identifier without it being exposed in the =
protocol.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There needs to be some shared =
identifier in the protocol, would you not agree? For Registered Clients, =
the AS needs to have an identifier to look up the data it has for the =
Client.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">What is broken with Client ID? What identifier are you =
proposing in XYZ?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I am proposing that the key information takes the =
place of the client ID for all kinds of clients. As discussed below, the =
key handle is not a key ID or a key hash =E2=80=94 but more on that in a =
bit. What=E2=80=99s important is that it=E2=80=99s an identifier that =
the AS can look at and ask itself, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ve seen this ID, =
what authentication method and policy should I use for its requests?=E2=80=
=9D This is the first step in an OAuth 2 AS implementation, where the AS =
sees the client ID and asks =E2=80=9Cwhat authentication method and =
policy should I use for this request?=E2=80=9D This is why I see the key =
handle =E2=80=94 and not a higher level construct like a client handle / =
client ID =E2=80=94 as the component that you would branch your =
decisions off of at the AS. Once I=E2=80=99ve validated the key, whether =
by value or by reference, I now know which client I=E2=80=99m talking =
to. I don=E2=80=99t need a separate client identifier. I know that we =
don=E2=80=99t do it this way in OAuth 2, and I think that=E2=80=99s a =
limiting decision that we=E2=80=99ve gotten incorrect.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>In the mental model of XYZ, the policy is then =
tied to whatever software that key represents, and since keys aren=E2=80=99=
t shared between clients, you get the property of a unique =
identification system as well. For dynamic clients, they don=E2=80=99t =
have to send an ID at all =E2=80=94 they send the key itself by value, =
since the ID won=E2=80=99t reference anything that the AS knows about. =
So we have an identifier for the clients that want a stable reference, a =
method for passing values for clients that don=E2=80=99t have a stable =
reference, and a clear way to upgrade from passing by value to passing =
by reference for clients that want to do the equivalent of =E2=80=9CDynami=
c Registration=E2=80=9D. There are a number of deployments where DynReg =
is used :just: to give clients in the field a client ID because OAuth 2 =
requires a client ID, and there=E2=80=99s a key that=E2=80=99s =
recognized during the DynReg process. But if the server can recognize my =
key, I ask: why not just start there when you do the request? You =
can=E2=80=99t in OAuth 2 because of the redirect-first model and keys =
don=E2=80=99t even show up there. You can in TxAuth because the model =
allows the client to talk to the AS directly first, and present its =
keys.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99ll again say =
that this is a pattern that=E2=80=99s applicable across all of the =
different =E2=80=9Chandles=E2=80=9D within the XYZ protocol. I propose =
that you could bootstrap an AS-initiated and RS-first protocol by having =
another component create a transaction handle to kick things off. As =
discussed below, resource handles can be static or dynamic as =
well.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>And it=E2=80=99s really important to know that =
handles do not need to match or be derived from the information that =
they represent. XYZ intentionally does not tie these together tightly. A =
key, like a JWK or certificate, is going to have its own internal =
identifier, and there=E2=80=99s nothing that says the key ID needs to be =
equal to that or rotate with that. But what if the AS wants to use a key =
hash as the key handle? That=E2=80=99s not required (or even suggested) =
in XYZ either -- but if it does, then that=E2=80=99s something that both =
the client and AS need to update. The AS will need to update its key =
reference, which means it will update its key hash, which means it will =
recognize the new key hash and tie it to the client record =
automatically. The client will need to update its key and send a new =
hash as its key handle to the AS. However, clients shouldn=E2=80=99t be =
expected to create a hash on their own =E2=80=94 it should update its =
key with the AS, and the AS should issue a key handle in response. =
Whether the AS creates that handle using a hash or not is not up to the =
client.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><br=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I agree that dynamic client IDs in OAuth 2 were problematic. =
In XAuth, a Dynamic Client is identified by its key.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Would you clarify what =
is broken with Client IDs for Registered Clients? It seems to working =
fine for registered clients in OAuth 2 / OpenID Connect, and migrating =
those deployments will be simpler if we keep the same concept.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The key handle seems =
problematic as it will change when keys are =
rotated.&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Why would =
the key handle change when the key is rotated? Nothing in XYZ dictates =
how the key handle is generated by the AS or how the key handle is =
mapped to a specific key. It=E2=80=99s not a key identifier, which is =
why I haven=E2=80=99t called it a =E2=80=9Ckey =
id=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I mistyped, I intended to say key =
fingerprint, which obviously changes when the key is rotated.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I reread the XYZ Key =
Handle section ... and you are suggesting it represents the Client =
instance, but it is not clear how the AS maps that to preregistered =
client information.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Right, the key handle doesn=E2=80=99t need to =
rotate when the key itself is rotated =E2=80=94 see the discussion =
above.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t see why a registered =
client can=E2=80=99t be identified by its key just like a dynamic client =
would be. What is the value in this split? I think there=E2=80=99s value =
in treating all clients the same and driving the differences in policy =
on the AS. Either I recognize a key handle, or I am being given a public =
key (which I also might recognize). In all of these cases the AS gets to =
run its policy against the party identified by the =
key.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To clarify, your proposal is that the =
public key, or a fingerprint of it, is what the AS uses to look up a =
preregistered Client?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>No, my proposal is that a public key is what the =
AS uses to recognize a preregistered client, and that public key can be =
represented by a handle. I would expect the handle to be stable over =
time, like a client ID, but more specific.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>In OAuth 2, the client ID wraps together all of =
the different aspects of the client and its associated policies. In XYZ, =
I sought to separate those into different handles because, as we=E2=80=99v=
e found in OAuth 2, different parts of the client system can vary over =
time. Our notion of what a =E2=80=9Cclient=E2=80=9D is in OAuth 2 is =
also pretty vague. We have developers all over the place sharing client =
IDs between different web servers (production and development =
environments, for example), different instances of software (mobile =
applications, SPAs, and =E2=80=9Cpublic=E2=80=9D clients), and different =
pieces of software altogether (micro-components that are tied together =
in a single pseudo-app). And we also have the explosion of Client IDs =
for apps using DynReg for things like ephemeral instances that get used =
once and then stop existing.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">3. XAuth =
uses a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field for interaction. This means the =
client can only do one type of interaction for any given transaction. =
XYZ started like this, but we moved away from it because we realized we =
could have a client app that could handle multiple types without that =
kind of dispatch. In XYZ the client sends over flags for each kind of =
interaction it can do: send the user to an arbitrary URL, give the user =
a code, get a callback from a browser, etc. Combining these in specific =
ways addresses all of the different methods that XAuth identifies as its =
types while also allowing additional things. The AS picks from the =
client=E2=80=99s list based on what the AS can support as well as what =
makes sense for the policies governing the requested =
access.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Do you have a use case where the AS =
will want to pick from a list, rather than supporting the one that the =
Client wants to =
use?</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The AS would return =
interaction responses that are the intersection of:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;- methods the =
client indicates it can do in the request</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;- =
methods the AS knows it can support</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;- methods =
allowed by the policy governing the request</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t understand the second =
part of this question, because the AS still =E2=80=9Csupports the one =
the client wants to use=E2=80=9D in the XYZ =
model.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'm looking for a use case where the AS =
needs to select from a list, rather than use the one mechanism that the =
Client wants to use. Why the extra =
negotiation?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The AS isn=E2=80=99t selecting a single value from =
the list. It=E2=80=99s responding to what the client wants to use, and =
it could respond to all of them. If the client wants to use one =
mechanism, it sends only one mechanism. XYZ enables all of the functions =
of XAuth=E2=80=99s interaction methods, and then some.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As for a concrete example, look at how =
we handle the =E2=80=9Cqrcode=E2=80=9D interaction case, based on OAuth =
2=E2=80=99s device flow. In this, you want to send a URI to the client =
that it can render as a QR code as well as a code that the user can type =
into a page, in case they can=E2=80=99t scan the QR code. OAuth 2 =
manages this by having a user code as well as a pre-composed URL =
containing the code to be used for rendering. XYZ used to have a mode =
for this similar to XAuth, but we realized that we could describe this =
using two separate flags:&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;- I can communicate a short code =
that the user can type in at a static URL</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;- I =
can get the user to go to an arbitrary URL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The second one is the same mechanism we =
can use for redirect-based =
auth.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I got that. I thought being more crisp =
in the interaction makes it easier for implementors to =
understand.&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s more crisp, I =
think it=E2=80=99s more limiting, and it leads to more confusing code =
paths. Having implemented both styles in XYZ in several languages, I =
vastly prefer the current XYZ style.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>When you have the =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field, =
you then have to specify what different responses mean in the context of =
different types, like what XAuth does in =C2=A74.2. In XYZ, the response =
fields have a single meaning, and the client does what it can with them. =
I think it=E2=80=99s presumptuous to assume =E2=80=9Cqrcode=E2=80=9D as =
a scannable format, for instance. Does the AS actually care how the =
client communicates the URL to the user? Not really. Even if we were to =
optimize this for the client and have the AS return an image instead of =
a URL, I think the AS should be able to return an arbitrary image for =
the client to display to the user.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">In the case where the AS interacts with an RO that is not the =
User, there would be nothing the Client would need to do. Perhaps there =
is a use case for something different? If so, please =
elaborate.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">4. XAuth =
allows OAuth-style scopes next to RAR-style data structures (and next to =
OIDC claims structures). They are treated as completely separate from =
each other. In OAuth 2, RAR is defined in the context of scope (and =
resource and audience and other parameters), and this combination is a =
matter of some debate still that needs to be solved. However, it=E2=80=99s=
 clear that they=E2=80=99re combined. In XYZ, the only resource request =
defined is the object inside the resource request. You can mimic =
=E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D behavior by using a Resource Handle, which again =
is defined as a single string that stands in for the whole object and =
could be defined by the AS (or the API it=E2=80=99s =
protecting).&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think you need to reread the 00 =
draft. Only one type of authorization request is allowed.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- OAuth style for =
deployments where that works fine.</div><div class=3D"">- RAR style for =
deployments that need the extra granularity of RAR</div><div class=3D"">- =
list of RAR style for deployments that support multiple resource servers =
that require independent access tokens.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">5. The different kinds =
of authz requests in (4) create separate tokens.This is very different =
from both OAuth 2 and XYZ, where you get back a single access token. And =
in XAuth there is no way to get, for example, two access tokens that are =
both described by RAR requests, so this seems like a very arbitrary and =
syntactically-driven =
separation.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don't think you understood what is in =
the draft. See =
above.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><=
div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Apologies on these =
points =E2=80=94 I didn=E2=80=99t catch that this had changed from the =
earlier drafts.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We can scratch this concern from the =
list then. Yeah!</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Well, kind of =E2=80=94 XAuth doesn=E2=80=99t =
allow the combination of an API-specified element (a scope, a simple =
string value) and a more fine grained access request. I believe this =
kind of combination is going to be essential for transition from OAuth2. =
XYZ manages things differently by putting the =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D =
like values (resource handles) at the same level and in the same array =
structure as the RAR-style complex values. This way, I can ask for =
access to access to a legacy API and a fine-grained request at the same =
time, and get an access token that is good for both. A =E2=80=9Cresource =
handle=E2=80=9D is a =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D, since an OAuth 2 scope =
represents some bundle of rights and/or information that the client is =
requesting, represented as a simple string. These can be defined =
statically by the API (or the AS) and configured manually in the client. =
Why not call it a =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D then? Because they can *also* =
be dynamically given to the client during the XYZ =
process.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>RAR also enables this =
in OAuth2, but does so using the existing =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D field =
with its existing syntax and semantics. This is a little bit more =
problematic because they exist at different levels of the request, but =
defining clear combination semantics is one of the things that RAR needs =
to do, and to get right.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I do not =
see a way to do this combination with XAuth=E2=80=99s model, and that =
seems to be a deliberate decision, which I find unnecessarily =
limiting.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">6. The =
assumption that JOSE will always be in the toolkit of the client =
developer is not true. You can do an XYZ transaction without any JOSE =
=E2=80=94 for example, using HTTP Sig or MTLS for key =
presentation.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Per earlier feedback from you, I have =
strived to separate JOSE out into Section 8, so that an extension could =
use HTTP signing or MTLS. Let me know where JOSE is still an =
assumption.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The separation =
is OK in the current draft, but it still states that JOSE is the =
default, and by implication, =
preferred.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes. I think freedom from having to =
make a choice makes things easier to implement and =
deploy.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">For deployments where another =
mechanism will be significantly better, the choice is available. =
=E2=80=98</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>These statements contradict each other. Are you =
advocating for =E2=80=9Cfreedom from choice=E2=80=9D or that the =
=E2=80=9Cchoice is available=E2=80=9D for this particular feature? I am =
arguing in favor of making choice available in the case of key =
presentation and removing choice in terms of request format (as in, the =
core payload).&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Is there something about JOSE that you think is problematic =
to make it the default?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Yes, it leads to reliance on putting everything of =
note in the JOSE payload as part of the base protocol. As explained =
previously, I want to be able to use HTTP as more than an entity body =
carrier. We should be using headers and methods and URLs =E2=80=94 and =
importantly, content types. I think JOSE should be switched with things =
like Content-Type headers and Accept headers, and that JSON bodies =
should be the default as they=E2=80=99re more universal across different =
signing and presentation mechanisms.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>My Java XYZ implementation does use JOSE, but by =
using JWS in a detached fashion to sign the body instead of an internal =
fashion. The reason for this is that it allows the request and response =
to be =E2=80=9Capplication/json=E2=80=9D and not =
=E2=80=9Capplication/jws=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>In all of these cases, I do not think it is a good =
idea to use JWT claims in the TxAuth request or response namespaces. =
Where we use JOSE, we should avoid JWT.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">7. The =
statement that =E2=80=9Cthere is no HTTP signing=E2=80=9D is false, as =
this is being brought up to the HTTP WG right now (I=E2=80=99m one of =
the co-authors). Yes, it=E2=80=99s not an RFC, but neither is this. And =
if we=E2=80=99re doing agile signature methods, which I contend is a =
required extension point, then we don=E2=80=99t have a dependency =
requirement for it.&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">XAuth says from&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-=
12" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#secti=
on-12</a>&nbsp;# 3</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before=
:page" class=3D"">There is currently no widely deployed open standard =
for HTTP signing.  </pre></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">Yes, there is working going on. But security it is not a =
published RFC, there are no libraries for it, and it has not been tested =
on the open internet.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">While I wish the HTTP WG luck in this work, and I support it =
happening, it will be hard.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">OAuth 1.0 core issue was that it was signing a request (in =
my =
opinion)</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote=
><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Which is why we =
shouldn=E2=80=99t have a normative dependency on it until it=E2=80=99s =
done, but ignoring it entirely is silly. I=E2=80=99ve always said this =
needs to be one among many options.</div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I was not ignoring it. =
When it is done, an extension can be written on how to use HTTP Signing. =
Or the extension could be developed at the same time.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The means of using HTTP Signing in TxAuth are =
already pretty clear, and I=E2=80=99ve implemented it in XYZ based on =
the existing Cavage draft that is being used as input to the HTTP =
WG.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The widely deployed HTTP Signing is AWS SIGv4 -- which AWS =
supplies libraries for every API in all popular languages so that =
developers don't have to do the HTTP signing themselves.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I could imagine AWS =
adopting XAuth and using SIGv4 instead of JOSE if they =
wanted.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I agree that they =
should be able to use TxAuth (not necessarily XAuth ;) ) using SIGv4, if =
they wanted =E2=80=94 and that=E2=80=99s assuming they don=E2=80=99t =
move AWS to HTTP Sig. :)</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Moving AWS to HTTP Sig is very, very =
unlikely, having worked there. Having an easy path to utilize XAuth / =
TxAuth is a good goal for the resulting =
work.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=
 still agree that they should be able to easily use TxAuth, which just a =
stronger argument for the signature/proofing mechanism to be a pluggable =
thing and that the request/response bodies not be JOSE objects but JSON =
objects.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">8. XAuth =
adds back in an explicit =E2=80=9Crefresh token=E2=80=9D. In XYZ, we =
don=E2=80=99t have a refresh token because we can use the transaction =
handle to continue the transaction after a token has been issued. This =
has explicit and clear semantics that follows from what the transaction =
handle is used for elsewhere in the protocol =E2=80=94 continue this =
request that=E2=80=99s in some authorization state and give me the =
results.&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think we agree that refresh is a =
required =
feature.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote=
><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, and I think =
that the constructs are similar, but the difference matters. By using =
the same handle for continuing the transaction over time as you do for =
refreshing, XYZ is giving the client developers a specific model: The =
transaction itself has a state and value over time, referenced by the =
transaction handle. The transaction entity still exists after it=E2=80=99s=
 been approved and a token has been issued, but the things you can do =
with it are different (see below).</div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The word transaction is =
muddying what I think you are suggesting here. It more like a =
conversation. Transactions from a DB point of view are a set of actions =
that all happen, or none =
happen.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99ve explained previously that the =
database interpretation is not the only or full interpretation of the =
word =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D here, so I won=E2=80=99t go back into =
it. Conversation is perhaps more accurate, but =E2=80=9CCxAuth=E2=80=9D =
is a problematic acronym. :-D</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Both continuation and refresh are =
saying to the AS =E2=80=9Crun this transaction again and if I can get a =
token (or claims or whatever) in its current state, give me that=E2=80=9D.=
 However, they can=E2=80=99t really exist at the same time, so having =
two separate items to ask the same question doesn=E2=80=99t make much =
sense.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">They have different purposes. The =
completion (now authorization) handle is to check if the AS is done with =
its request processing, and if so, provide the results, which includes =
zero or more identity claims, and zero or more access =
tokens/handles.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The refresh handle is to refresh a specific access =
token/handle.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t see these as being different, and =
that=E2=80=99s where we disagree. The access token is the end result of =
the processing. Refreshing is an act of continuing that processing. I do =
not see a good argument for treating them separately.&nbsp;</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I think a transaction handle is to course grained. I don't =
think that the AS should be returning all the claims in a refresh. And =
if there are multiple access tokens returned from the AS, then each has =
their own refresh =
handle.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think this =
requires a deeper discussion, since the whole idea of multiple access =
tokens is a very different kind of approach =
here.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is a feature of =
XAuth.&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Kind of. XAuth allows multiple access tokens in =
one limited context, and only when using rich authorization requests to =
do so. I would rather see us have a general mechanism that allows us to =
get multiple access tokens in a way that=E2=80=99s parallel to how you =
get one access token.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">In OAuth today, the bearer token is like a movie ticket. =
Whoever has the movie ticket gets in the movie.</div><div class=3D"">Using=
 OAuth to obtain a bearer token is like buying a movie ticket.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Sometimes I want to go =
to more than one movie. OAuth today makes me wait in line to buy each =
ticket. Why not let me buy multiple tickets at =
once?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>That=E2=80=99s not true. You can get one ticket =
that=E2=80=99s good for two movies, to borrow your =
metaphor.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The semantics of =
requesting multiple access tokens in parallel is something the working =
group might want to consider. I am not a fan of how XAuth handles this, =
with packing things into the authorization list. I think it=E2=80=99s a =
concept we should consider though.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I see refresh much as it is in OAuth2 =
and UMA, where it refers to the authorization that was granted. This =
means that you can do downscoping to get lower-powered access tokens =
that are a subset of the overall grant, and I think that TxAuth should =
be able to do a step-up auth where you can build some additional request =
on top of an existing approval.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Is "step-up auth" =
authentication or authorization, ... or =
both?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=
 think the question you asked is unintentionally misleading because =
=E2=80=9Cstep up=E2=80=9D authentication could be seen from the client =
or the AS=E2=80=99s perspective.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The =E2=80=9Cstep up=E2=80=9D that I mean here is =
from the client=E2=80=99s perspective, not from the AS/IdP=E2=80=99s =
perspective. The client wants more of something =E2=80=94 more access to =
an API, more user information, etc. It=E2=80=99s likely that the AS is =
going to want to interact with the user to include whatever additional =
access the client is asking for, but the client doesn=E2=80=99t want to =
start from scratch. You=E2=80=99ve got a ticket that=E2=80=99s good to =
see one movie, and you want to add another movie to it for after. The =
theater already knows who you are and how to get your money, so they can =
just add it on.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It=E2=80=99s =
entirely feasible that the process of asking for more information would =
prompt the AS to re-authenticate the user, including prompting them for =
additional credentials. However, from the client=E2=80=99s view, =
that=E2=80=99s a side-effect of its request.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">9. XAuth uses OIDC=E2=80=99s ID Token. As I=E2=80=99ve said =
on the other thread, I don=E2=80=99t think we actually need a separately =
signed assertion. I=E2=80=99d rather see a way to sign the entire =
response which includes the user claims, if we want signature =
protection.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I responded in a separate =
thread.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">10. =
XAuth sends all the user=E2=80=99s claims on the login request =E2=80=94 =
or more precisely, this is the only mechanism specified and the =
Rationale section claims this is a feature. This violates minimal =
disclosure and privacy design guidelines, and this type of protocol has =
been developed before with OpenID 1.x/2.x and SAML. The problem here =
unfolds when you think about how it works: The RP needs to log in. If =
this is the first time it=E2=80=99s seen this user, then it needs the =
user=E2=80=99s profile info. If not, and the profile info hasn=E2=80=99t =
changed, there=E2=80=99s no need for it and the AS shouldn=E2=80=99t =
send it. So the RP can signal this, right? Except that the RP doesn=E2=80=99=
t know who the user is yet (that=E2=80=99s why they=E2=80=99re making =
this call!). Can the AS make this call? They won=E2=80=99t know if the =
RP has cached the user=E2=80=99s info or not. And if we=E2=80=99re using =
Client ID, then the AS can=E2=80=99t even be sure that this copy of the =
client is the same as another copy of the client. I think TxAuth needs =
to minimize the user claims sent back to being an identifier, =
information about the authentication event that could change each time =
anyway, and anything that would be needed to control a cache. Additional =
fields can be pulled from the equivalent of a UserInfo Endpoint in a =
two-stage process that both preserves privacy and optimizes for what=E2=80=
=99s available from each party.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Not clear how XYZ =
improves on =
this.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">XYZ does not =
currently internally specify how to hand user info back, but I was =
looking at something in line with what Aaron Parecki=E2=80=99s blog post =
specified last summer.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The UserInfo Endpoint solves the Client getting more info =
than it needs, but the User still needs to give consent each time unless =
the AS tracks it. So it is unclear to me what value the UserInfo =
Endpoint =
brings.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Remembering user consent and =
delivering claims are two completely separate problems and should not be =
conflated here. I was addressing the =
former.&nbsp;</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">They are related though. If you are not =
wanting to ask for consent on each delivery, how do you know you have =
consent?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>We are talking past each other. They=E2=80=99re =
related in the sense that they=E2=80=99re both a part of the =
authorization process, but consenting to the release of information and =
the delivery of that information are completely separate from each =
other.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Consent is not the =
client=E2=80=99s policy, that=E2=80=99s the AS=E2=80=99s policy. My =
consent is stored on the AS. The client can't know if this is the =
=E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=80=9D time or not because it doesn=E2=80=99t know who =
I am yet, so it can=E2=80=99t ask if I should consent again. If the =
client knows who I am, it doesn=E2=80=99t need to ask the AS to log me =
in in the first place.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>However, =
once I=E2=80=99m interacting with the AS, the AS has a chance of =
figuring things out. The AS can determine if it=E2=80=99s seen the same =
client before, if it=E2=80=99s seen the same user before, and if the =
same client is making the same request for the same user, and the AS =
knows that it can make that decision without prompting the user. We =
already do exactly this today with OAuth 2 and OIDC =
systems.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>But the AS does :not: =
know which profile and identity claims the client actually :needs:. The =
only party able to make that decision is the client, and it can only =
make that decision once it has a reference to which user is there (in =
terms of an identifier). The AS can (and I argue should) give the client =
some kind of key for helping make that decision.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The push of user information into an =
OAuth-protected API, and separating it from the authentication context, =
is one of the best parts of OpenID Connect. Yes, the client can always =
request the user info as long as it has the access token =E2=80=94 and =
to me that=E2=80=99s a feature, because the client is the component that =
knows when it needs updated info.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Your comments have inspired me on a solution that can be done =
with XAuth (or XYZ) that can't be done with OAuth 2.0/OIDC.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'll add that to the =
XAuth draft and publish it.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">11. =
XAuth defines an explicit discovery step because the client now needs to =
know several things about the server. The mix-up attack and a few other =
attacks in OAuth 2 stem from this kind of process. In XYZ, the client =
really only needs to know the transaction endpoint URL and it learns =
everything else from that point. Yes, the client needs to discover that =
someplace =E2=80=94 but it was a deliberate decision in limiting the =
amount of upfront information that the client needs to get =
started.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That is still discovery, is it =
not?</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>I literally just called it that in the =
sentence above, so yes. :) What you=E2=80=99re discovering is different =
though. And doesn=E2=80=99t the client still need to =E2=80=9Cdiscover=E2=80=
=9D the discovery endpoint in XAuth?</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What discovery =
endpoint?&nbsp;&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The charter currently includes =E2=80=9CAS =
discovery=E2=80=9D, per your request to add it. To me, and I would argue =
to most, =E2=80=9Cdiscovery=E2=80=9D is a programmatic process. If =
it=E2=80=99s manual, it=E2=80=99s not really the client =
=E2=80=9Cdiscovering=E2=80=9D anything, it=E2=80=99s being told things =
manually by a developer. That=E2=80=99s not discovery as the term is =
generally known, and I think this is a key source of confusion here. =
There is no =E2=80=9Cdiscovery=E2=80=9D that=E2=80=99s not programmatic =
=E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s configuration.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Would the Client not need to know the message signing methods =
supported? JOSE, HTTP Signing, and/or =
MTLS?&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Only required =
if the client can programmatically do anything about that. The truth is =
that just about every client is going to be configured to do one kind of =
signing, and the developer can usually discover that. I don=E2=80=99t =
see a problem with having it listed in a discovery document next to the =
transaction endpoint, but I think we don=E2=80=99t actually need it =
because of the items below:</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""> I=E2=80=99ve played with the =
concept of a =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D list in XYZ, where the =
client would present a list of things it can do and the AS trims that =
list to what it can also do.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So ... programatic =
discovery? =3D)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Are you suggesting that discovery of everything but the =
endpoint has to be =
programatic?&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In no =
way, shape, or form am I implying that. I=E2=80=99m saying that the =
items that can be used for programmatic discovery can be returned from =
the transaction endpoint without need for a separate endpoint. This can =
even include the signing methods, and the round-trips for an automated =
client are basically the same.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So take the XAuth approach:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- client gets configured =
with the discovery =
endpoint&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">- client calls =
discovery endpoint, self-configures</div><div class=3D"">- client calls =
tx endpoint</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Aaah now I see where we don't have =
common understanding ... that is not the XAuth approach at =
all.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap;" class=3D"">   1.  *AS Discovery* The =
Client discovers the AS end point, keys,
       supported claims and authorizations, and other capabilities.
       Some, or all of this information could be manually preconfigured,
       or dynamically obtained.  Dynamic AS discovery is out of scope of
       this document.</pre></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;In other words, =
here is some information the Client will need. You will need to manually =
configure it, or there may be an option to obtain some or all of the =
information you need programatically. The programatic discovery is out =
of scope.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Perhaps I need to improve the =
language?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Yes, if you mean manual configuration of elements, =
then that=E2=80=99s not discovery as the term is going to be understood =
by most.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">And the XYZ approach:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- client gets configured =
with the tx endpoint</div><div class=3D"">- client calls tx endpoint, =
picks whatever default method it wants for signing (TxAuth spec can even =
declare a preferred version if we want)</div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>- if it works, tx =
has already started and things just continue =E2=80=94 this optimizes =
for the happy path</div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>- if it fails, =
client gets back information to allow it to self-configure and calls the =
tx endpoint again</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Most existing Clients are manually =
configured. The developer reads the AS documentation to learn what =
scopes and claims the AS supports, and then codes that into the Client. =
The XYZ approach above does not take that into account, and is in =
conflict with what you have below.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>It does take it into account =E2=80=94 all of that =
can happen manually in XYZ. The developer can hard-code the tx endpoint, =
scopes, keys, and everything else. The developer can hard code handles =
to represent all of those that they=E2=80=99ve gotten through =
pre-registration. Or it can happen dynamically using the same mechanisms =
within the protocol. There=E2=80=99s not a conflict.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">In =
XAuth, I'm calling that out as a step, so the developer understands =
where that comes from. You effectively are saying the same thing below, =
so it is unclear what your concern with XAuth is.</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In XYZ, discovery is currently =
ignored.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>In XYZ, the only value the client absolutely MUST =
know about is the tx endpoint. Discovery is not ignored, it=E2=80=99s =
trivial. And what you=E2=80=99re calling =E2=80=9CDiscovery=E2=80=9D is =
manual/static configuration, which is definitely covered. This can =
perhaps be made more clear, but it=E2=80=99s in there.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is what I mean by one-stage =
negotiation on the discovery. If the client gets it right, that=E2=80=99s =
fine and things just continue without the extra step. If the client gets =
it wrong, it=E2=80=99s given the equivalent of information from the =
discovery endpoint that it can either self correct (which it would be =
able to do if it could self configure from a discovery document) or it =
will throw an error (which is what it=E2=80=99d do if it gets a =
discovery document it can=E2=80=99t do anything with).&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""> This type of one-stage =
negotiation is really powerful and I think we can get a lot from it =
here.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Sure ... but for many people what works =
today is documentation that someone reads to understand what to do. Are =
you suggesting we not enable =
that?</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am not suggesting =
that we disallow human-readable documentation and static configuration. =
I have no idea where you got that I was suggesting =
that.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Because you were not supportive of the =
discovery step in XAuth? And you made no mention of static configuration =
in your description, contrary to XAuth?&nbsp; Hence me asking a probing =
question to get clarity.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>As stated in the intro to this email, static =
configuration was always part of XYZ=E2=80=99s model. And as stated =
above, =E2=80=9Cdiscovery=E2=80=9D fully implies it being programmatic. =
I don=E2=80=99t believe there=E2=80=99s a conflict in the way that =
you=E2=80=99re suggesting.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">Interpersonal communication =
hint:&nbsp; when you have no idea on why someone is asking a clarifying =
question, ask yourself what might have been unclear in your =
communication. Then just answer the clarifying question.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But to be clear, yes you can still =
document things and pre-configure them. In fact, I think that=E2=80=99s =
better handled in XYZ that allows the client to be pre-configured and =
get started with a TX request, and then recover better if things =
aren=E2=80=99t what it thought.</div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">XAuth documents what =
information is required, and that it can be =
pre-configured.&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>XYZ does the same, so I think we agree that this =
is an important aspect of TxAuth.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">Where =
in XYZ is the negotiation after the TX request? Sounds interesting, but =
I did not see it.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>It=E2=80=99s not =E2=80=9Cafter=E2=80=9D so much =
as =E2=80=9Cpart of=E2=80=9D the request/response. =E2=80=9CNegotiation=E2=
=80=9D is a slippery word, as it often implies a back-and-forth =
multi-round process. I think that=E2=80=99s a problematic and =
complicated pattern. What I do think is useful is a single-trip, where =
the client starts things by declaring what it knows and can do, and the =
server responds with something that it can do that it now knows the =
client can do. TLS algorithm negotiation and HTTP content negotiation =
both work this way, and do so successfully without a complicated =
protocol.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If the client has been =
preconfigured to only ask for things the server can do, and if the =
client is configured to ask for only a single option, then it=E2=80=99s =
identical to the case where everything is static and making a single =
choice.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">/Dick</div></div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" =
style=3D"max-height:1px" class=3D""><img alt=3D"" =
style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" =
src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5j=
b20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D683fbcbc-6ec8-4b3c-9f14-8011343c0=
0f8" class=3D""><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1" =
class=3D"">=E1=90=A7</font></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From nobody Fri Jan 31 04:38:12 2020
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] XAuth - a revision of TxAuth
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Finishing a dangling sentence:

>=20
> Part of the power of XYZ is that these handles have the same model in =
both cases =E2=80=94 the string is a reference to an object that could =
be passed by value as well. Flexibility in how these handles are created =
and=20
>>=20

=E2=80=A6 used is one of the benefits of XYZ=E2=80=99s model. Handles =
are opaque and AS-determined. The AS can make these in response to a =
runtime action or a configuration/development time action. They can be =
random, they can be hashes, they can even be structured (though in most =
cases that doesn=E2=80=99t make sense because you could just send the =
structured object instead). In all cases, they=E2=80=99re serializable =
as a string and represent an object that could have been passed by value =
in their stead. The object that the handle represents can change without =
changing the handle. Two different handles could resolve to the same =
underlying object. Only the AS determines what the handle maps to, in =
reality.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Finishing a dangling sentence:<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Part of the power of =
XYZ is that these handles have the same model in both cases =E2=80=94 =
the string is a reference to an object that could be passed by value as =
well. Flexibility in how these handles are created =
and&nbsp;</div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><=
br class=3D""></div><div>=E2=80=A6 used is one of the benefits of =
XYZ=E2=80=99s model. Handles are opaque and AS-determined. The AS can =
make these in response to a runtime action or a =
configuration/development time action. They can be random, they can be =
hashes, they can even be structured (though in most cases that doesn=E2=80=
=99t make sense because you could just send the structured object =
instead). In all cases, they=E2=80=99re serializable as a string and =
represent an object that could have been passed by value in their stead. =
The object that the handle represents can change without changing the =
handle. Two different handles could resolve to the same underlying =
object. Only the AS determines what the handle maps to, in =
reality.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 =
Justin</div></body></html>=

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Subject: [Txauth] Questions on key validations by RS
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From: Ryo Kato <me@hashedhyphen.com>
To: txauth@ietf.org
Message-ID: <abd470f4-78c4-f792-5ab6-1d8c4f3370c9@hashedhyphen.com>
Subject: [Txauth] Questions on key validations by RS

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Hi,

I'm reading the draft 04, and I have some questions now.

The draft says:
```
The Resource Server (RS) accepts tokens from the RC and validates them
```
and also
```
Any keys presented by the RC to the AS or RS MUST be validated as part of=

the transaction in which they are presented.
```

Therefore, I understand that the *RS* MUST validate the proof of
possession of
RC's keys when accepting tokens from the RC.
(And I understand this procedure is for so called "sender-constrained
token")

However, I think it is a bit ambiguous about the way for *RS* to
validate that keys.

Assuming the `proof` parameter is `jwsd`, i.e. Detached JWS.

The current draft 04 says:

```
the RC takes the serialized body of the request and signs it
```

Yes, RC's transaction (continuation) requests to AS are always HTTP POST
requests,
and their body is always a non-empty JSON object.

Whereas, RC's requests to *RS* are not always POST, so they can be plain
GET requests.
Since GET request body is missing in general, the input for JWS will be
missing too.

In this case, what should we take for JWS instead of request body?

- Ryo




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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:33:55 -0800
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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Cc: "rdd@cert.org" <rdd@cert.org>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, txauth@ietf.org, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] XAuth - a revision of TxAuth
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Your statement below:

Handles are opaque and AS-determined.


Is not stated in XYZ, and seems in conflict with XYZ where some handles are
SHA3:

9.1 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-transactional-authz-04#sectio=
n-9.1>.
Presenting handles

   Bearer handles are presented by giving the exact string value of the
   handle in the appropriate place.

   SHA3 handles are validated by taking the SHA3 hash of the handle
   value and encoding it in Base64URL with no padding, and presenting
   the encoded value.

9.2 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-transactional-authz-04#sectio=
n-9.2>.
Validating handles

   Bearer handles are validated by doing an exact byte comparison of the
   string representation of the handle value.

   SHA3 handles are validated by taking the SHA3 hash of the handle
   value and encoding it in Base64URL with no padding, and comparing
   that using an exact byte comparison with the presented value.


Or are you saying the RC does not present the handle back, but presents
back a SHA3 hash of the handle?

I don't understand what value there is in doing the hash, as it is a
reference to something in the AS, and the RC is always authenticating when
presenting them.
=E1=90=A7

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 4:38 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> Finishing a dangling sentence:
>
>
> Part of the power of XYZ is that these handles have the same model in bot=
h
> cases =E2=80=94 the string is a reference to an object that could be pass=
ed by
> value as well. Flexibility in how these handles are created and
>
>
>
> =E2=80=A6 used is one of the benefits of XYZ=E2=80=99s model. Handles are=
 opaque and
> AS-determined. The AS can make these in response to a runtime action or a
> configuration/development time action. They can be random, they can be
> hashes, they can even be structured (though in most cases that doesn=E2=
=80=99t make
> sense because you could just send the structured object instead). In all
> cases, they=E2=80=99re serializable as a string and represent an object t=
hat could
> have been passed by value in their stead. The object that the handle
> represents can change without changing the handle. Two different handles
> could resolve to the same underlying object. Only the AS determines what
> the handle maps to, in reality.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Your statement below:<div><br></div><blockquote style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div>Handles are opaque and AS-de=
termined.=C2=A0</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Is not stated in XYZ,=
 and seems in conflict with XYZ where some handles are SHA3:</div><div><br>=
</div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin=
-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=
=3D"gmail-h3" style=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em;font-weight:bold"><h3 s=
tyle=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em"><a class=3D"gmail-selflink" name=3D"s=
ection-9.1" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-transactional-=
authz-04#section-9.1" style=3D"color:black;text-decoration-line:none">9.1</=
a>.  Presenting handles</h3></span>

   Bearer handles are presented by giving the exact string value of the
   handle in the appropriate place.

   SHA3 handles are validated by taking the SHA3 hash of the handle
   value and encoding it in Base64URL with no padding, and presenting
   the encoded value.
</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"gm=
ail-h3" style=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em;font-weight:bold"><h3 style=
=3D"display:inline;font-size:1em"><a class=3D"gmail-selflink" name=3D"secti=
on-9.2" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-transactional-auth=
z-04#section-9.2" style=3D"color:black;text-decoration-line:none">9.2</a>. =
 Validating handles</h3></span>

   Bearer handles are validated by doing an exact byte comparison of the
   string representation of the handle value.

   SHA3 handles are validated by taking the SHA3 hash of the handle
   value and encoding it in Base64URL with no padding, and comparing
   that using an exact byte comparison with the presented value.</pre></div=
><div><br></div><div>Or are you saying the RC does not present the handle b=
ack, but presents back a SHA3 hash of the handle?</div><div><br></div><div>=
I don&#39;t understand=C2=A0what value there is in doing the hash, as it is=
 a reference to something in the AS, and the RC is always authenticating wh=
en presenting them.=C2=A0</div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=
=3D"max-height:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflo=
w:hidden" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEB=
nbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D1759e2b9-306b-4a22-ad42-d=
034f6748aa4"><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7</font></div><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan=
 31, 2020 at 4:38 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">j=
richer@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">Finishing a danglin=
g sentence:<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br></div><div><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varian=
t-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-d=
ecoration:none"><div>Part of the power of XYZ is that these handles have th=
e same model in both cases =E2=80=94 the string is a reference to an object=
 that could be passed by value as well. Flexibility in how these handles ar=
e created and=C2=A0</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></di=
v></div></blockquote><br></div><div>=E2=80=A6 used is one of the benefits o=
f XYZ=E2=80=99s model. Handles are opaque and AS-determined. The AS can mak=
e these in response to a runtime action or a configuration/development time=
 action. They can be random, they can be hashes, they can even be structure=
d (though in most cases that doesn=E2=80=99t make sense because you could j=
ust send the structured object instead). In all cases, they=E2=80=99re seri=
alizable as a string and represent an object that could have been passed by=
 value in their stead. The object that the handle represents can change wit=
hout changing the handle. Two different handles could resolve to the same u=
nderlying object. Only the AS determines what the handle maps to, in realit=
y.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div></div>-- <br>
Txauth mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Txauth@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:28:48 -0800
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] XAuth - a revision of TxAuth
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On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 3:22 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> On Jan 30, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 1:05 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 30, 2020, at 12:25 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:26 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> I think XAuth has an interesting take on the problem space that TxAuth
>>> is looking to solve, but in my opinion it generally veers too closely t=
o
>>> OAuth2/OIDC/JWT in its solution approach.
>>>
>>
>> Reusing aspects of OAuth2/OIDC/JWT that are working fine for deployments
>> will minimize the migration effort for them to take advantage of the
>> security features of this work such as not using the redirect for passin=
g
>> parameters. I think XAuth supports the following clause of the current
>> draft charter: "the group will attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.=
0
>> and OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible.=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>> I understand the goals here, but I disagree that using the constructs as
>> directly as they have been here is the most appropriate approach.
>>
>
> Ok. I think we have reasonable clarity on the disagreement.
>
>
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>>> 1. XAuth removes =E2=80=9Chandles=E2=80=9D as stand-ins for various ele=
ments. In XYZ,
>>> the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D concept is a key abstraction point with sp=
ecific semantics. A
>>> =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D is an identifier to a specific instantiation o=
f a JSON object
>>> structure. Using the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D for Keys, for Resources, =
and even the whole
>>> Transaction lets you do a lot of core things in a parallel and reusable
>>> way. XAuth re-invents a few of these as separate items, listed below, a=
nd I
>>> see this as a regression.
>>>
>>
>> XAuth took the transaction handle and forked it into a completion handle
>> and a refresh handle so that it is clear what the Client is wanting to
>> happen.
>>
>> It was not clear the value of the other handles that were listed in XYZ.
>>
>>
>> I think this may be that you misunderstood the purposes of the handles,
>> as you=E2=80=99ve reinvented nearly all of them with different labels in=
 XAuth. :)
>>
>
> I understand what a handle is, and what it represents. It appears that th=
e
> handles provide a reference to the display, resource, user, and key
> objects. XYZ says the AS may issue those, but I could not find determine
> when the AS sends them back to the RC. I understand the value of the
> transaction handle XYZ, and built on that in XAuth, but XAuth always send=
s
> the display, resource, user and key information by value, not by referenc=
e,
> so your statement
>
> you=E2=80=99ve reinvented nearly all of them with different labels in XAu=
th
>
>
> is confusing.
>
>
> I think what you=E2=80=99re missing is that the dynamically generated han=
dles are
> not the only handles in the system.
>

I did not understand that handles could be generated by the AS and hand
configured, and had missed the sentence in Section 2 for each object that
the RC can present a handle instead.

The Client ID in most deployments is a handle by this definition. The AS
generates it, and the Client presents it in future calls to represent all
the Client information.

My assumption is you did not want to call them identifiers, as you want to
use the term handle everywhere, and make dynamic handles and static handles
interchangeable. Correct?

It is unclear what value a dynamic display, resource, user, or key handle
has for a given transaction, as the information is all represented by your
transaction handle.

Static handles, and reusing a dynamic handle in a subsequent request allows
a developer to pass by reference rather than value, but it is not clear
what real benefit that provides over just passing the value.

The transaction handle is different as it represents all the context the AS
has for the transaction, which the Client does not have access to. All the
other handles seem like they are just shorter version, and are more of an
identifier.



> What is broken with Client ID? What identifier are you proposing in XYZ?
>
>
> I am proposing that the key information takes the place of the client ID
> for all kinds of clients. As discussed below, the key handle is not a key
> ID or a key hash =E2=80=94 but more on that in a bit. What=E2=80=99s impo=
rtant is that it=E2=80=99s
> an identifier that the AS can look at and ask itself, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99=
ve seen this ID,
> what authentication method and policy should I use for its requests?=E2=
=80=9D This
> is the first step in an OAuth 2 AS implementation, where the AS sees the
> client ID and asks =E2=80=9Cwhat authentication method and policy should =
I use for
> this request?=E2=80=9D This is why I see the key handle =E2=80=94 and not=
 a higher level
> construct like a client handle / client ID =E2=80=94 as the component tha=
t you
> would branch your decisions off of at the AS. Once I=E2=80=99ve validated=
 the key,
> whether by value or by reference, I now know which client I=E2=80=99m tal=
king to. I
> don=E2=80=99t need a separate client identifier.
>

Got it.

So far the Client ID and the key handle look to me to be the same for
Registered Clients. What is the information referenced by a Client ID at
the AS, that would NOT be referenced by a key handle?


> I know that we don=E2=80=99t do it this way in OAuth 2, and I think that=
=E2=80=99s a
> limiting decision that we=E2=80=99ve gotten incorrect.
>

Use cases that are limited by that decision would help understand why you
think it was incorrect.


>
> In the mental model of XYZ, the policy is then tied to whatever software
> that key represents, and since keys aren=E2=80=99t shared between clients=
, you get
> the property of a unique identification system as well. For dynamic
> clients, they don=E2=80=99t have to send an ID at all =E2=80=94 they send=
 the key itself by
> value, since the ID won=E2=80=99t reference anything that the AS knows ab=
out.
>
So we have an identifier for the clients that want a stable reference, a
> method for passing values for clients that don=E2=80=99t have a stable re=
ference,
> and a clear way to upgrade from passing by value to passing by reference
> for clients that want to do the equivalent of =E2=80=9CDynamic Registrati=
on=E2=80=9D. There
> are a number of deployments where DynReg is used :just: to give clients i=
n
> the field a client ID because OAuth 2 requires a client ID, and there=E2=
=80=99s a
> key that=E2=80=99s recognized during the DynReg process. But if the serve=
r can
> recognize my key, I ask: why not just start there when you do the request=
?
> You can=E2=80=99t in OAuth 2 because of the redirect-first model and keys=
 don=E2=80=99t
> even show up there. You can in TxAuth because the model allows the client
> to talk to the AS directly first, and present its keys.
>


So calling it a key handle lets you call it the same thing for both
Registered Clients and Dynamic Clients? The advantage to a Dynamic Client
is that it can present a reference instead of its public key again on
subsequent calls? Is there another advantage?

The AS could also compute a fingerprint of the Dynamic Client key and use
that as its ephemeral identifier for the Dynamic Client.


> And it=E2=80=99s really important to know that handles do not need to mat=
ch or be
> derived from the information that they represent.
>

Yes. I understand what a handle is. =3D)


>
> No, my proposal is that a public key is what the AS uses to recognize a
> preregistered client, and that public key can be represented by a handle.=
 I
> would expect the handle to be stable over time, like a client ID, but mor=
e
> specific.
>

Which public key?  XAuth describes how different instances of a Registered
Client can have their own private key, so the matching public key is
different for each Client instance. The Client can have a certificate
signed by a private key matching the public key registered for the Client
at the As.


>
> In OAuth 2, the client ID wraps together all of the different aspects of
> the client and its associated policies. In XYZ, I sought to separate thos=
e
> into different handles because, as we=E2=80=99ve found in OAuth 2, differ=
ent parts
> of the client system can vary over time. Our notion of what a =E2=80=9Ccl=
ient=E2=80=9D is
> in OAuth 2 is also pretty vague. We have developers all over the place
> sharing client IDs between different web servers (production and
> development environments, for example), different instances of software
> (mobile applications, SPAs, and =E2=80=9Cpublic=E2=80=9D clients), and di=
fferent pieces of
> software altogether (micro-components that are tied together in a single
> pseudo-app).
>

I don't think it is vague. The "client" is not a specific piece of
software. From the User or RS's perspective, it is the "service" that was
provided the identity claims and/or authorization. They don't want to have
to re-authorize as they move between a mobile client, a desktop client, or
a web client for the same service.

What is clearly problematic is sharing the client secret across all of
these places. Implementations I have worked on have centralized the client
secret in one place, and then handed out the access token to the software
component for it to directly call the RS.

As I discussed above, certificates let a complex Client have each component
independently make calls to the AS.


> And we also have the explosion of Client IDs for apps using DynReg for
> things like ephemeral instances that get used once and then stop existing=
.
>

As we have discussed, Client IDs for Dynamic Clients is problematic. The
only information an AS has about a Dynamic Client is what it has done with
the Client previously. Note that a mobile app can be a Dynamic Client, and
have a long lifetime.


> The AS would return interaction responses that are the intersection of:
>>
>>  - methods the client indicates it can do in the request
>>  - methods the AS knows it can support
>>  - methods allowed by the policy governing the request
>>
>> I don=E2=80=99t understand the second part of this question, because the=
 AS still
>> =E2=80=9Csupports the one the client wants to use=E2=80=9D in the XYZ mo=
del.
>>
>
> I'm looking for a use case where the AS needs to select from a list,
> rather than use the one mechanism that the Client wants to use. Why the
> extra negotiation?
>
>
> The AS isn=E2=80=99t selecting a single value from the list. It=E2=80=99s=
 responding to
> what the client wants to use, and it could respond to all of them. If the
> client wants to use one mechanism, it sends only one mechanism. XYZ enabl=
es
> all of the functions of XAuth=E2=80=99s interaction methods, and then som=
e.
>

I understand how it works, and that it is more powerful. It is also more
complex. What does practical value does this provide an implementor?


>
>
>
>>
>> As for a concrete example, look at how we handle the =E2=80=9Cqrcode=E2=
=80=9D interaction
>> case, based on OAuth 2=E2=80=99s device flow. In this, you want to send =
a URI to
>> the client that it can render as a QR code as well as a code that the us=
er
>> can type into a page, in case they can=E2=80=99t scan the QR code. OAuth=
 2 manages
>> this by having a user code as well as a pre-composed URL containing the
>> code to be used for rendering. XYZ used to have a mode for this similar =
to
>> XAuth, but we realized that we could describe this using two separate
>> flags:
>>
>>  - I can communicate a short code that the user can type in at a static
>> URL
>>  - I can get the user to go to an arbitrary URL
>>
>> The second one is the same mechanism we can use for redirect-based auth.
>>
>
> I got that. I thought being more crisp in the interaction makes it easier
> for implementors to understand.
>
>
> I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s more crisp, I think it=E2=80=99s more =
limiting, and it leads to
> more confusing code paths. Having implemented both styles in XYZ in sever=
al
> languages, I vastly prefer the current XYZ style.
>

It is more crisp. And it is more limiting, and I think it leads to simpler
code paths.



>
> When you have the =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field, you then have to specify =
what different
> responses mean in the context of different types, like what XAuth does in
> =C2=A74.2. In XYZ, the response fields have a single meaning, and the cli=
ent
> does what it can with them. I think it=E2=80=99s presumptuous to assume =
=E2=80=9Cqrcode=E2=80=9D as
> a scannable format, for instance.
>

A QR Code is a scannable format by definition.


> Does the AS actually care how the client communicates the URL to the user=
?
> Not really.
>

As I noted in XAuth, the AS does care. While a really long URL works fine
in a redirect or popup, it does not work in a QR code. The AS can return a
short URL for the QR code that redirects to the long URL. The AS does not
want to impose the redirect latency on the redirect or popup.


> Even if we were to optimize this for the client and have the AS return an
> image instead of a URL, I think the AS should be able to return an
> arbitrary image for the client to display to the user.
>

In XAuth I asked if we wanted to allow the Client to over a webview for the
AS to load whatever it wants.

Additionally, since we are designing all of this to be extensible, if
another use case comes up with a different interaction method, we can just
add a new type.


>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> In the case where the AS interacts with an RO that is not the User, ther=
e
>> would be nothing the Client would need to do. Perhaps there is a use cas=
e
>> for something different? If so, please elaborate.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 4. XAuth allows OAuth-style scopes next to RAR-style data structures
>>> (and next to OIDC claims structures). They are treated as completely
>>> separate from each other. In OAuth 2, RAR is defined in the context of
>>> scope (and resource and audience and other parameters), and this
>>> combination is a matter of some debate still that needs to be solved.
>>> However, it=E2=80=99s clear that they=E2=80=99re combined. In XYZ, the =
only resource
>>> request defined is the object inside the resource request. You can mimi=
c
>>> =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D behavior by using a Resource Handle, which agai=
n is defined as a
>>> single string that stands in for the whole object and could be defined =
by
>>> the AS (or the API it=E2=80=99s protecting).
>>>
>>
>> I think you need to reread the 00 draft. Only one type of authorization
>> request is allowed.
>>
>> - OAuth style for deployments where that works fine.
>> - RAR style for deployments that need the extra granularity of RAR
>> - list of RAR style for deployments that support multiple resource
>> servers that require independent access tokens.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 5. The different kinds of authz requests in (4) create separate
>>> tokens.This is very different from both OAuth 2 and XYZ, where you get =
back
>>> a single access token. And in XAuth there is no way to get, for example=
,
>>> two access tokens that are both described by RAR requests, so this seem=
s
>>> like a very arbitrary and syntactically-driven separation.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think you understood what is in the draft. See above.
>>
>>
>> Apologies on these points =E2=80=94 I didn=E2=80=99t catch that this had=
 changed from the
>> earlier drafts.
>>
>
> We can scratch this concern from the list then. Yeah!
>
>
> Well, kind of =E2=80=94 XAuth doesn=E2=80=99t allow the combination of an=
 API-specified
> element (a scope, a simple string value) and a more fine grained access
> request.
>

I don't think you went back to reread -00. The oauth-rich type includes a
scope, and an authorizations_details.

I made that change as it was not clear when I looked at RAR (which is still
developing) that it did not include the scope.


> Yes. I think freedom from having to make a choice makes things easier to
> implement and deploy.
> For deployments where another mechanism will be significantly better, the
> choice is available. =E2=80=98
>
>
> These statements contradict each other. Are you advocating for =E2=80=9Cf=
reedom
> from choice=E2=80=9D or that the =E2=80=9Cchoice is available=E2=80=9D fo=
r this particular feature?
> I am arguing in favor of making choice available in the case of key
> presentation and removing choice in terms of request format (as in, the
> core payload).
>

Freedom from choice: if I don't want to have to make a choice, the choice
is made. These are frequently called defaults. They have proven useful. =3D=
)

Stated another way: here is what you do unless you have a good reason to do
something else.

While I think JOSE is a better default, I'm open to another method being a
default. I do strongly think there should be a default.


>
>
> Is there something about JOSE that you think is problematic to make it th=
e
> default?
>
>
> Yes, it leads to reliance on putting everything of note in the JOSE
> payload as part of the base protocol.
>

In XAuth, I factored out all the JOSE. Once again, have you read -00, or
-01?

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-3

All payloads are JSON. The JOSE section describes how to use JOSE for
message and header signing.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-8


> As explained previously, I want to be able to use HTTP as more than an
> entity body carrier. We should be using headers and methods and URLs =E2=
=80=94 and
> importantly, content types.
>

I agree.

XAuth uses POST, GET and DELETE

It uses the Authorization header and different parameters to indicate the
type of token.
It uses content type to indicate what the content type is. This will assist
an AS that supports multiple Client authentication methods


> I think JOSE should be switched with things like Content-Type headers and
> Accept headers, and that JSON bodies should be the default as they=E2=80=
=99re more
> universal across different signing and presentation mechanisms.
>
> My Java XYZ implementation does use JOSE, but by using JWS in a detached
> fashion to sign the body instead of an internal fashion. The reason for
> this is that it allows the request and response to be =E2=80=9Capplicatio=
n/json=E2=80=9D
> and not =E2=80=9Capplication/jws=E2=80=9D.
>

Detached signatures work, but I have found them to be problematic in
practice, which is why I chose "application/jws". There is no canonical
form for JSON, so it can get modified, and still be valid JSON, but the
signature does not match. Passing around the signature independent of the
payload is more complex.

A JWS can be easily passed between components and is self contained, with
no worries that the JSON was modified by parsing and re-serializing it.


>
> In all of these cases, I do not think it is a good idea to use JWT claims
> in the TxAuth request or response namespaces. Where we use JOSE, we shoul=
d
> avoid JWT.
>

I agree. JWT is good for claims. Not so good messages.


>
> I still agree that they should be able to easily use TxAuth, which just a
> stronger argument for the signature/proofing mechanism to be a pluggable
> thing and that the request/response bodies not be JOSE objects but JSON
> objects.
>

We discussed this in early drafts, and XAuth is JSON, with JOSE added on.


>
> The word transaction is muddying what I think you are suggesting here. It
> more like a conversation. Transactions from a DB point of view are a set =
of
> actions that all happen, or none happen.
>
>
> I=E2=80=99ve explained previously that the database interpretation is not=
 the only
> or full interpretation of the word =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D here, so=
 I won=E2=80=99t go back
> into it. Conversation is perhaps more accurate, but =E2=80=9CCxAuth=E2=80=
=9D is a
> problematic acronym. :-D
>

Naming is hard. =3D)


>
>
>
>>
>> Both continuation and refresh are saying to the AS =E2=80=9Crun this tra=
nsaction
>> again and if I can get a token (or claims or whatever) in its current
>> state, give me that=E2=80=9D. However, they can=E2=80=99t really exist a=
t the same time, so
>> having two separate items to ask the same question doesn=E2=80=99t make =
much sense.
>>
>
> They have different purposes. The completion (now authorization) handle i=
s
> to check if the AS is done with its request processing, and if so, provid=
e
> the results, which includes zero or more identity claims, and zero or mor=
e
> access tokens/handles.
>
> The refresh handle is to refresh a specific access token/handle.
>
>
> I don=E2=80=99t see these as being different, and that=E2=80=99s where we=
 disagree. The
> access token is the end result of the processing. Refreshing is an act of
> continuing that processing. I do not see a good argument for treating the=
m
> separately.
>

Developers are already familiar with refreshing a token


>
>
>
>>
>>
>> I think a transaction handle is to course grained. I don't think that th=
e
>> AS should be returning all the claims in a refresh. And if there are
>> multiple access tokens returned from the AS, then each has their own
>> refresh handle.
>>
>>
>> I think this requires a deeper discussion, since the whole idea of
>> multiple access tokens is a very different kind of approach here.
>>
>
> It is a feature of XAuth.
>
>
> Kind of. XAuth allows multiple access tokens in one limited context, and
> only when using rich authorization requests to do so.
>

Given that existing implementations using scopes only support one access
token, it did not seem limiting to only have a oauth_rich_list,
particularly since a RAR request is a superset of functionality of a scope
request.


> I would rather see us have a general mechanism that allows us to get
> multiple access tokens in a way that=E2=80=99s parallel to how you get on=
e access
> token.
>

A general mechanism sounds fine and dandy. Currently we don't have other
ways to request authorization except for oauth scopes and RAR, which is a
super set of RAR. If and when we need a more general mechanism, we could
define a new type.


>
>
> In OAuth today, the bearer token is like a movie ticket. Whoever has the
> movie ticket gets in the movie.
> Using OAuth to obtain a bearer token is like buying a movie ticket.
>
> Sometimes I want to go to more than one movie. OAuth today makes me wait
> in line to buy each ticket. Why not let me buy multiple tickets at once?
>
>
> That=E2=80=99s not true. You can get one ticket that=E2=80=99s good for t=
wo movies, to
> borrow your metaphor.
>

Which is all you can do in OAuth today. Get one ticket.


>
> The semantics of requesting multiple access tokens in parallel is
> something the working group might want to consider. I am not a fan of how
> XAuth handles this, with packing things into the authorization list. I
> think it=E2=80=99s a concept we should consider though.
>

If you have other ideas, please share them!

To elaborate on my metaphor.

A family is going to the movies. The Father (one component of the family),
is going to purchase tickets. Billy (age 8) can pick from the G rated
movies. Sally (age 15) can pick from G, PG, and PG-13 movies, and Father
can pick anything.

Father does not want to buy 3 tickets that are identical and can work for
any movie. (effectively what an access token is today) He only wants them
to go to a movie he has approved, at the time he has selected.

Father wants to buy 3 different tickets, and give the appropriate ticket to
each child.

The metaphor breaks down here, but each child needs to be able to refresh
their ticket independent of the other's, which is why a refresh handle is
required. The transaction handle is not granular enough.


>
>
>
>>
>> I see refresh much as it is in OAuth2 and UMA, where it refers to the
>> authorization that was granted. This means that you can do downscoping t=
o
>> get lower-powered access tokens that are a subset of the overall grant, =
and
>> I think that TxAuth should be able to do a step-up auth where you can bu=
ild
>> some additional request on top of an existing approval.
>>
>
> Is "step-up auth" authentication or authorization, ... or both?
>
>
> I think the question you asked is unintentionally misleading because =E2=
=80=9Cstep
> up=E2=80=9D authentication could be seen from the client or the AS=E2=80=
=99s perspective.
>

Well, your statement was unclear as "auth" can be one or the other! From
below, you intended authorization.


>
> The =E2=80=9Cstep up=E2=80=9D that I mean here is from the client=E2=80=
=99s perspective, not from
> the AS/IdP=E2=80=99s perspective. The client wants more of something =E2=
=80=94 more access
> to an API, more user information, etc. It=E2=80=99s likely that the AS is=
 going to
> want to interact with the user to include whatever additional access the
> client is asking for, but the client doesn=E2=80=99t want to start from s=
cratch.
> You=E2=80=99ve got a ticket that=E2=80=99s good to see one movie, and you=
 want to add
> another movie to it for after. The theater already knows who you are and
> how to get your money, so they can just add it on.
>
> It=E2=80=99s entirely feasible that the process of asking for more inform=
ation
> would prompt the AS to re-authenticate the user, including prompting them
> for additional credentials. However, from the client=E2=80=99s view, that=
=E2=80=99s a
> side-effect of its request.
>

The step-up authentication is a policy decision independent of the Client.
The User is having to provide additional authorization.


> Remembering user consent and delivering claims are two completely separat=
e
>> problems and should not be conflated here. I was addressing the former.
>>
>
> They are related though. If you are not wanting to ask for consent on eac=
h
> delivery, how do you know you have consent?
>
>
> We are talking past each other. They=E2=80=99re related in the sense that=
 they=E2=80=99re
> both a part of the authorization process, but consenting to the release o=
f
> information and the delivery of that information are completely separate
> from each other.
>

Consent is required to release the information. That is how they are
related.


>
> Consent is not the client=E2=80=99s policy, that=E2=80=99s the AS=E2=80=
=99s policy. My consent is
> stored on the AS.
>

Maybe. Maybe not.


> The client can't know if this is the =E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=80=9D time or not =
because it
> doesn=E2=80=99t know who I am yet, so it can=E2=80=99t ask if I should co=
nsent again. If
> the client knows who I am, it doesn=E2=80=99t need to ask the AS to log m=
e in in
> the first place.
>

Did you spend anytime looking at my "authentication first" proposal in -01?

The Client asks the AS to authenticate the User, and send that result, then
the Client can decide what, if anything it wants to request for that User.
The AS no longer needs to maintain state.


>
> However, once I=E2=80=99m interacting with the AS, the AS has a chance of=
 figuring
> things out. The AS can determine if it=E2=80=99s seen the same client bef=
ore, if
> it=E2=80=99s seen the same user before, and if the same client is making =
the same
> request for the same user, and the AS knows that it can make that decisio=
n
> without prompting the user. We already do exactly this today with OAuth 2
> and OIDC systems.
>

Sometimes. Sometimes not. The specifications are mute on saving state.


>
> But the AS does :not: know which profile and identity claims the client
> actually :needs:. The only party able to make that decision is the client=
,
> and it can only make that decision once it has a reference to which user =
is
> there (in terms of an identifier). The AS can (and I argue should) give t=
he
> client some kind of key for helping make that decision.
>
> The push of user information into an OAuth-protected API, and separating
> it from the authentication context, is one of the best parts of OpenID
> Connect. Yes, the client can always request the user info as long as it h=
as
> the access token =E2=80=94 and to me that=E2=80=99s a feature, because th=
e client is the
> component that knows when it needs updated info.
>

This is where consent and delivery are related. If the user info has been
updated, has the User provided consent for the Client to receive it? The AS
is the endpoint that can interact with the user, not the UserInfo endpoint.

Why not just go back to the AS and ask for the data again. If consent is
not required, the AS returns the data. If consent is required, the AS can
interact with the User to get it.

The UserInfo endpoint seems redundant if the Client can get the claims from
the AS.



>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Your comments have inspired me on a solution that can be done with XAuth
>> (or XYZ) that can't be done with OAuth 2.0/OIDC.
>>
>> I'll add that to the XAuth draft and publish it.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 11. XAuth defines an explicit discovery step because the client now
>>> needs to know several things about the server. The mix-up attack and a =
few
>>> other attacks in OAuth 2 stem from this kind of process. In XYZ, the cl=
ient
>>> really only needs to know the transaction endpoint URL and it learns
>>> everything else from that point. Yes, the client needs to discover that
>>> someplace =E2=80=94 but it was a deliberate decision in limiting the am=
ount of
>>> upfront information that the client needs to get started.
>>>
>>
>> That is still discovery, is it not?
>>
>>
>> I literally just called it that in the sentence above, so yes. :) What
>> you=E2=80=99re discovering is different though. And doesn=E2=80=99t the =
client still need
>> to =E2=80=9Cdiscover=E2=80=9D the discovery endpoint in XAuth?
>>
>
> What discovery endpoint?
>
>
> The charter currently includes =E2=80=9CAS discovery=E2=80=9D, per your r=
equest to add it.
> To me, and I would argue to most, =E2=80=9Cdiscovery=E2=80=9D is a progra=
mmatic process. If
> it=E2=80=99s manual, it=E2=80=99s not really the client =E2=80=9Cdiscover=
ing=E2=80=9D anything, it=E2=80=99s being
> told things manually by a developer. That=E2=80=99s not discovery as the =
term is
> generally known, and I think this is a key source of confusion here. Ther=
e
> is no =E2=80=9Cdiscovery=E2=80=9D that=E2=80=99s not programmatic =E2=80=
=94 that=E2=80=99s configuration.
>

I think of discovery is going to the AS and learning what it can do --
since discovery is learning. That can be the developer going to the AS docs
and reading, or the Client calling a discovery API.

After manual discovery, the developer decides how to manually configure the
Client, based on what was discovered when reading the documentation.

I have found it useful to call out the manual discovery so that
implementors know where the information comes from. IE it is not in the
specification.


=E1=90=A7

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 3:22 AM Justi=
n Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wro=
te:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"ov=
erflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 30, 20=
20, at 11:13 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu,=
 Jan 30, 2020 at 1:05 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.ed=
u" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>On Jan 30, 2020, at 12:25 AM, Dick=
 Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.h=
ardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:26 AM Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div>I think XAut=
h has an interesting take on the problem space that TxAuth is looking to so=
lve, but in my opinion it generally veers too closely to OAuth2/OIDC/JWT in=
 its solution approach. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
Reusing aspects of OAuth2/OIDC/JWT that are working fine for deployments wi=
ll minimize the migration effort for them to take advantage of the security=
 features of this work such as not using the redirect for passing parameter=
s. I think XAuth supports the following clause of the current draft charter=
: &quot;the group will=C2=A0attempt to simplify porting from OAuth 2.0 and =
OpenID Connect to the new protocol where possible.=E2=80=9D</div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I un=
derstand the goals here, but I disagree that using the constructs as direct=
ly as they have been here is the most appropriate approach.</div></div></di=
v></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Ok. I think we have reasonable clarity o=
n the disagreement.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>&lt;snip&gt;</=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
><div><div></div><div>1. XAuth removes =E2=80=9Chandles=E2=80=9D as stand-i=
ns for various elements. In XYZ, the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D concept is a =
key abstraction point with specific semantics. A =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D i=
s an identifier to a specific instantiation of a JSON object structure. Usi=
ng the =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D for Keys, for Resources, and even the whole=
 Transaction lets you do a lot of core things in a parallel and reusable wa=
y. XAuth re-invents a few of these as separate items, listed below, and I s=
ee this as a regression.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
XAuth took the transaction handle and forked it into a completion handle an=
d a refresh handle so that it is clear what the Client is wanting to happen=
.</div><div><br></div><div>It was not clear the value of the other handles =
that were listed in XYZ.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think this may be that you misu=
nderstood the purposes of the handles, as you=E2=80=99ve reinvented nearly =
all of them with different labels in XAuth. :)</div></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>I understand what a handle is, and what it represents=
. It appears that the handles provide a reference to the display, resource,=
 user, and key objects. XYZ says the AS may issue those, but I could not fi=
nd determine when the AS sends them back to the RC. I understand the value =
of the transaction handle XYZ, and built on that in XAuth, but XAuth always=
 sends the display, resource, user and key information by value, not by ref=
erence, so your statement=C2=A0</div><div><br></div></div><blockquote style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div>you=E2=80=99ve reinvented nearly all of them with different label=
s in XAuth</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>is confusing.<br></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think what you=E2=80=99re missing is=
 that the dynamically generated handles are not the only handles in the sys=
tem.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I did not understand=
 that handles could be generated by the AS and hand configured, and had mis=
sed the sentence in Section 2 for each object that the RC can present a han=
dle instead.</div><div><br></div><div>The Client ID in most deployments is =
a handle by this definition. The AS generates it, and the Client presents i=
t in future calls to represent all the Client information.</div><div><br></=
div><div>My assumption is you did not want to call them identifiers, as you=
 want to use the term handle everywhere, and make dynamic handles and stati=
c handles interchangeable. Correct?</div><div><br></div><div>It is unclear =
what value a dynamic display, resource, user, or key handle has for a given=
 transaction, as the information is all represented by your transaction han=
dle.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Static handles, and reusing a dynamic h=
andle in a subsequent request allows a developer to pass by reference rathe=
r than value, but it is not clear what real benefit that provides over just=
 passing the value.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The transaction handle i=
s different as it represents all the context the AS has for the transaction=
, which the Client does not have access to. All the other handles seem like=
 they are just shorter version, and are more of an identifier.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>What is broken with Client I=
D? What identifier are you proposing in XYZ?</div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>I am proposing that the key information takes the place=
 of the client ID for all kinds of clients. As discussed below, the key han=
dle is not a key ID or a key hash =E2=80=94 but more on that in a bit. What=
=E2=80=99s important is that it=E2=80=99s an identifier that the AS can loo=
k at and ask itself, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ve seen this ID, what authenticatio=
n method and policy should I use for its requests?=E2=80=9D This is the fir=
st step in an OAuth 2 AS implementation, where the AS sees the client ID an=
d asks =E2=80=9Cwhat authentication method and policy should I use for this=
 request?=E2=80=9D This is why I see the key handle =E2=80=94 and not a hig=
her level construct like a client handle / client ID =E2=80=94 as the compo=
nent that you would branch your decisions off of at the AS. Once I=E2=80=99=
ve validated the key, whether by value or by reference, I now know which cl=
ient I=E2=80=99m talking to. I don=E2=80=99t need a separate client identif=
ier.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Got it.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>So far the Client ID and the key handle look to me to be the s=
ame for Registered Clients. What is the information referenced by a Client =
ID at the AS, that would NOT be referenced by a key handle?</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"ov=
erflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div> I know that we don=E2=80=99t do it thi=
s way in OAuth 2, and I think that=E2=80=99s a limiting decision that we=E2=
=80=99ve gotten incorrect.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>Use cases that are limited by that decision would help understand why you=
 think it was incorrect.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div>=
<div><br></div><div>In the mental model of XYZ, the policy is then tied to =
whatever software that key represents, and since keys aren=E2=80=99t shared=
 between clients, you get the property of a unique identification system as=
 well. For dynamic clients, they don=E2=80=99t have to send an ID at all =
=E2=80=94 they send the key itself by value, since the ID won=E2=80=99t ref=
erence anything that the AS knows about. </div></div></div></blockquote><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap:=
 break-word;"><div><div>So we have an identifier for the clients that want =
a stable reference, a method for passing values for clients that don=E2=80=
=99t have a stable reference, and a clear way to upgrade from passing by va=
lue to passing by reference for clients that want to do the equivalent of =
=E2=80=9CDynamic Registration=E2=80=9D. There are a number of deployments w=
here DynReg is used :just: to give clients in the field a client ID because=
 OAuth 2 requires a client ID, and there=E2=80=99s a key that=E2=80=99s rec=
ognized during the DynReg process. But if the server can recognize my key, =
I ask: why not just start there when you do the request? You can=E2=80=99t =
in OAuth 2 because of the redirect-first model and keys don=E2=80=99t even =
show up there. You can in TxAuth because the model allows the client to tal=
k to the AS directly first, and present its keys.=C2=A0</div></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div><div><br></div><div>So calling it a key hand=
le lets you call it the same thing for both Registered Clients and Dynamic =
Clients? The advantage to a Dynamic Client is that it can present a referen=
ce instead of its public key again on subsequent calls? Is there another ad=
vantage?</div><div><br></div><div>The AS could also compute a fingerprint o=
f the Dynamic Client key and use that as its ephemeral identifier for the D=
ynamic Client.</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div>And =
it=E2=80=99s really important to know that handles do not need to match or =
be derived from the information that they represent.</div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>Yes. I understand what a handle is. =3D)</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D=
"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>No, my proposal is th=
at a public key is what the AS uses to recognize a preregistered client, an=
d that public key can be represented by a handle. I would expect the handle=
 to be stable over time, like a client ID, but more specific.=C2=A0</div></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Which public key?=C2=A0 XAuth de=
scribes how different instances of a Registered Client can have their own p=
rivate key, so the matching public key is different for each Client instanc=
e. The Client can have a certificate signed by a private key matching the p=
ublic key registered for the Client at the As.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wr=
ap: break-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>In OAuth 2, the client ID wraps t=
ogether all of the different aspects of the client and its associated polic=
ies. In XYZ, I sought to separate those into different handles because, as =
we=E2=80=99ve found in OAuth 2, different parts of the client system can va=
ry over time. Our notion of what a =E2=80=9Cclient=E2=80=9D is in OAuth 2 i=
s also pretty vague. We have developers all over the place sharing client I=
Ds between different web servers (production and development environments, =
for example), different instances of software (mobile applications, SPAs, a=
nd =E2=80=9Cpublic=E2=80=9D clients), and different pieces of software alto=
gether (micro-components that are tied together in a single pseudo-app).</d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think it is vag=
ue. The &quot;client&quot; is not a specific piece of software. From the Us=
er or RS&#39;s perspective, it is the &quot;service&quot; that was provided=
 the identity claims and/or authorization. They don&#39;t want to have to r=
e-authorize as they move between a mobile client, a desktop client, or a we=
b client for the same service.</div><div><br></div><div>What is clearly pro=
blematic is sharing the client secret across all of these places. Implement=
ations I have worked on have centralized the client secret in one place, an=
d then handed out the access token to the software component for it to dire=
ctly call the RS.</div><div><br></div><div>As I discussed above, certificat=
es let a complex Client have each component independently make calls to the=
 AS.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div> And we a=
lso have the explosion of Client IDs for apps using DynReg for things like =
ephemeral instances that get used once and then stop existing.=C2=A0</div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>As we have discussed, Client ID=
s for Dynamic Clients is problematic. The only information an AS has about =
a Dynamic Client is what it has done with the Client previously. Note that =
a mobile app can be a Dynamic Client, and have a long lifetime.</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D=
"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div><div><div>The AS would return interaction responses that ar=
e the intersection of:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0- methods the client =
indicates it can do in the request</div><div>=C2=A0- methods the AS knows i=
t can support</div><div>=C2=A0- methods allowed by the policy governing the=
 request</div><div><br></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t understand the second par=
t of this question, because the AS still =E2=80=9Csupports the one the clie=
nt wants to use=E2=80=9D in the XYZ model.</div></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div>I&#39;m looking for a use case where the AS needs to sele=
ct from a list, rather than use the one mechanism that the Client wants to =
use. Why the extra negotiation?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>The AS isn=E2=80=99t selecting a single value from the list. I=
t=E2=80=99s responding to what the client wants to use, and it could respon=
d to all of them. If the client wants to use one mechanism, it sends only o=
ne mechanism. XYZ enables all of the functions of XAuth=E2=80=99s interacti=
on methods, and then some.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>I understand how it works, and that it is more powerful. It is also more =
complex. What does practical value does this provide an implementor?</div><=
div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div styl=
e=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><div>As for a co=
ncrete example, look at how we handle the =E2=80=9Cqrcode=E2=80=9D interact=
ion case, based on OAuth 2=E2=80=99s device flow. In this, you want to send=
 a URI to the client that it can render as a QR code as well as a code that=
 the user can type into a page, in case they can=E2=80=99t scan the QR code=
. OAuth 2 manages this by having a user code as well as a pre-composed URL =
containing the code to be used for rendering. XYZ used to have a mode for t=
his similar to XAuth, but we realized that we could describe this using two=
 separate flags:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0- I can communicate a=
 short code that the user can type in at a static URL</div><div>=C2=A0- I c=
an get the user to go to an arbitrary URL</div><div><br></div><div>The seco=
nd one is the same mechanism we can use for redirect-based auth.=C2=A0</div=
></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I got that. I thought being m=
ore crisp in the interaction makes it easier for implementors to understand=
.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don=E2=80=
=99t think it=E2=80=99s more crisp, I think it=E2=80=99s more limiting, and=
 it leads to more confusing code paths. Having implemented both styles in X=
YZ in several languages, I vastly prefer the current XYZ style.=C2=A0</div>=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It is more crisp. And it is mo=
re limiting, and I think it leads to simpler code paths.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div s=
tyle=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>When you have =
the =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D field, you then have to specify what different r=
esponses mean in the context of different types, like what XAuth does in =
=C2=A74.2. In XYZ, the response fields have a single meaning, and the clien=
t does what it can with them. I think it=E2=80=99s presumptuous to assume =
=E2=80=9Cqrcode=E2=80=9D as a scannable format, for instance. </div></div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>A QR Code is a scannable format by de=
finition.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div>Does the AS actu=
ally care how the client communicates the URL to the user? Not really. </di=
v></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>As I noted in XAuth, the AS =
does care. While a really long URL works fine in a redirect or popup, it do=
es not work in a QR code. The AS can return a short URL for the QR code tha=
t redirects to the long URL. The AS does not want to impose the redirect la=
tency on the redirect or popup.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div=
><div>Even if we were to optimize this for the client and have the AS retur=
n an image instead of a URL, I think the AS should be able to return an arb=
itrary image for the client to display to the user.=C2=A0</div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>In XAuth I asked if we wanted to allow the=
 Client to over a webview for the AS to load whatever it wants.</div><div><=
br></div><div>Additionally, since we are designing all of this to be extens=
ible, if another use case comes up with a different interaction method, we =
can just add a new type.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>In the case where the AS i=
nteracts with an RO that is not the User, there would be nothing the Client=
 would need to do. Perhaps there is a use case for something different? If =
so, please elaborate.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><div>4. XAuth allows OAuth-=
style scopes next to RAR-style data structures (and next to OIDC claims str=
uctures). They are treated as completely separate from each other. In OAuth=
 2, RAR is defined in the context of scope (and resource and audience and o=
ther parameters), and this combination is a matter of some debate still tha=
t needs to be solved. However, it=E2=80=99s clear that they=E2=80=99re comb=
ined. In XYZ, the only resource request defined is the object inside the re=
source request. You can mimic =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D behavior by using a R=
esource Handle, which again is defined as a single string that stands in fo=
r the whole object and could be defined by the AS (or the API it=E2=80=99s =
protecting).=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I thin=
k you need to reread the 00 draft. Only one type of authorization request i=
s allowed.</div><div><br></div><div>- OAuth style for deployments where tha=
t works fine.</div><div>- RAR style for deployments that need the extra gra=
nularity of RAR</div><div>- list of RAR style for deployments that support =
multiple resource servers that require independent access tokens.</div><div=
>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><di=
v><div><br></div><div>5. The different kinds of authz requests in (4) creat=
e separate tokens.This is very different from both OAuth 2 and XYZ, where y=
ou get back a single access token. And in XAuth there is no way to get, for=
 example, two access tokens that are both described by RAR requests, so thi=
s seems like a very arbitrary and syntactically-driven separation.=C2=A0</d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think you under=
stood what is in the draft. See above.</div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Apologies on these points=
 =E2=80=94 I didn=E2=80=99t catch that this had changed from the earlier dr=
afts.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We can scratc=
h this concern from the list then. Yeah!</div></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>Well, kind of =E2=80=94 XAuth doesn=E2=80=99t allow t=
he combination of an API-specified element (a scope, a simple string value)=
 and a more fine grained access request. </div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think you went back to reread -00. The oauth-r=
ich type includes a scope, and an authorizations_details.=C2=A0</div><div><=
br></div><div>I made that change as it was not clear when I looked at RAR (=
which is still developing) that it did not include the scope.</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"ov=
erflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Yes. I think freedom from having to mak=
e a choice makes things easier to implement and deploy.=C2=A0</div><div>For=
 deployments where another mechanism will be significantly better, the choi=
ce is available. =E2=80=98</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>These statements contradict each other. Are you advocating for =E2=
=80=9Cfreedom from choice=E2=80=9D or that the =E2=80=9Cchoice is available=
=E2=80=9D for this particular feature? I am arguing in favor of making choi=
ce available in the case of key presentation and removing choice in terms o=
f request format (as in, the core payload).=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Freedom from choice: if I don&#39;t want to have t=
o make a choice, the choice is made. These are frequently called defaults. =
They have proven useful. =3D)</div><div><br></div><div>Stated another way: =
here is what you do unless you have a good reason to do something else.=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>While I think JOSE is a better default, I&#39;=
m open to another method being a default. I do strongly think there should =
be a default.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></di=
v><div>Is there something about JOSE that you think is problematic to make =
it the default?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes=
, it leads to reliance on putting everything of note in the JOSE payload as=
 part of the base protocol. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>In XAuth, I factored out all the JOSE. Once again, have you read -00, o=
r -01?</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draf=
t-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-3">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hard=
t-xauth-protocol-00#section-3</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>All payloads=
 are JSON. The JOSE section describes how to use JOSE for message and heade=
r signing.</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-8">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
hardt-xauth-protocol-00#section-8</a><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-w=
ord;"><div><div>As explained previously, I want to be able to use HTTP as m=
ore than an entity body carrier. We should be using headers and methods and=
 URLs =E2=80=94 and importantly, content types. </div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>I agree.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>XAuth uses =
POST, GET and DELETE</div><div><br></div><div>It uses the Authorization hea=
der and different parameters to indicate the type of token.</div><div>It us=
es content type to indicate what the content type is. This will assist an A=
S that supports multiple Client authentication methods=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"ov=
erflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div>I think JOSE should be switched with th=
ings like Content-Type headers and Accept headers, and that JSON bodies sho=
uld be the default as they=E2=80=99re more universal across different signi=
ng and presentation mechanisms.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>My Java XYZ =
implementation does use JOSE, but by using JWS in a detached fashion to sig=
n the body instead of an internal fashion. The reason for this is that it a=
llows the request and response to be =E2=80=9Capplication/json=E2=80=9D and=
 not =E2=80=9Capplication/jws=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>Detached signatures work, but I have found them to be =
problematic in practice, which is why I chose &quot;application/jws&quot;. =
There is no canonical form for JSON, so it can get modified, and still be v=
alid JSON, but the signature does not match. Passing around the signature i=
ndependent of the payload is more complex.</div><div><br></div><div>A JWS c=
an be easily passed between components and is self contained, with no worri=
es that the JSON was modified by parsing and re-serializing it.</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D=
"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>In all of these cases=
, I do not think it is a good idea to use JWT claims in the TxAuth request =
or response namespaces. Where we use JOSE, we should avoid JWT.</div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree. JWT is good for claims. Not=
 so good messages.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div><br></d=
iv><div>I still agree that they should be able to easily use TxAuth, which =
just a stronger argument for the signature/proofing mechanism to be a plugg=
able thing and that the request/response bodies not be JOSE objects but JSO=
N objects.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We discussed t=
his in early drafts, and XAuth is JSON, with JOSE added on.</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"ov=
erflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>The word transaction is =
muddying what I think you are suggesting here. It more like a conversation.=
 Transactions from a DB point of view are a set of actions that all happen,=
 or none happen.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I=
=E2=80=99ve explained previously that the database interpretation is not th=
e only or full interpretation of the word =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D her=
e, so I won=E2=80=99t go back into it. Conversation is perhaps more accurat=
e, but =E2=80=9CCxAuth=E2=80=9D is a problematic acronym. :-D</div></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Naming is hard. =3D)</div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overfl=
ow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><div>Both continuation and =
refresh are saying to the AS =E2=80=9Crun this transaction again and if I c=
an get a token (or claims or whatever) in its current state, give me that=
=E2=80=9D. However, they can=E2=80=99t really exist at the same time, so ha=
ving two separate items to ask the same question doesn=E2=80=99t make much =
sense.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>They have di=
fferent purposes. The completion (now authorization) handle is to check if =
the AS is done with its request processing, and if so, provide the results,=
 which includes zero or more identity claims, and zero or more access token=
s/handles.</div><div><br></div><div>The refresh handle is to refresh a spec=
ific access token/handle.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t see these as being different, and tha=
t=E2=80=99s where we disagree. The access token is the end result of the pr=
ocessing. Refreshing is an act of continuing that processing. I do not see =
a good argument for treating them separately.=C2=A0</div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>Developers are already familiar with refreshing =
a token</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><br><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v><br></div><div>I think a transaction handle is to course grained. I don&#=
39;t think that the AS should be returning all the claims in a refresh. And=
 if there are multiple access tokens returned from the AS, then each has th=
eir own refresh handle.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think this requires a deeper discussio=
n, since the whole idea of multiple access tokens is a very different kind =
of approach here.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I=
t is a feature of XAuth.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>Kind of. XAuth allows multiple access tokens in one limited con=
text, and only when using rich authorization requests to do so.</div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Given that existing implementations =
using scopes only support one access token, it did not seem limiting to onl=
y have a oauth_rich_list, particularly since a RAR request is a superset of=
 functionality of a scope request.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">=
<div><div> I would rather see us have a general mechanism that allows us to=
 get multiple access tokens in a way that=E2=80=99s parallel to how you get=
 one access token.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>A gene=
ral mechanism sounds fine and dandy. Currently we don&#39;t have other ways=
 to request authorization except for oauth scopes and RAR, which is a super=
 set of RAR. If and when we need a more general mechanism, we could define =
a new type.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=
<br></div><div>In OAuth today, the bearer token is like a movie ticket. Who=
ever has the movie ticket gets in the movie.</div><div>Using OAuth to obtai=
n a bearer token is like buying a movie ticket.</div><div><br></div><div>So=
metimes I want to go to more than one movie. OAuth today makes me wait in l=
ine to buy each ticket. Why not let me buy multiple tickets at once?</div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That=E2=80=99s not true. =
You can get one ticket that=E2=80=99s good for two movies, to borrow your m=
etaphor.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Which is a=
ll you can do in OAuth today. Get one ticket.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: bre=
ak-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>The semantics of requesting multiple acc=
ess tokens in parallel is something the working group might want to conside=
r. I am not a fan of how XAuth handles this, with packing things into the a=
uthorization list. I think it=E2=80=99s a concept we should consider though=
.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If you have other ideas=
, please share them!</div><div><br></div><div>To elaborate on my metaphor.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>A family is going to the movies. The Father (one c=
omponent of the family), is going to purchase tickets. Billy (age 8) can pi=
ck from the G rated movies. Sally (age 15) can pick from G, PG, and PG-13 m=
ovies, and Father can pick anything.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Father =
does not want to buy 3 tickets that are identical and can work for any movi=
e. (effectively what an access token is today) He only wants them to go to =
a movie he has approved, at the time he has selected.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Father wants to buy 3 different tickets, and give the appropriate ticke=
t to each child.</div><div><br></div><div>The metaphor breaks down here, bu=
t each child needs to be able to refresh their ticket independent of the ot=
her&#39;s, which is why a refresh handle is required. The transaction handl=
e is not granular enough.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div=
><div><br></div><div>I see refresh much as it is in OAuth2 and UMA, where i=
t refers to the authorization that was granted. This means that you can do =
downscoping to get lower-powered access tokens that are a subset of the ove=
rall grant, and I think that TxAuth should be able to do a step-up auth whe=
re you can build some additional request on top of an existing approval.=C2=
=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Is &quot;step-up auth=
&quot; authentication or authorization, ... or both?</div></div></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think the question you asked is uninten=
tionally misleading because =E2=80=9Cstep up=E2=80=9D authentication could =
be seen from the client or the AS=E2=80=99s perspective.=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, your statement was unclear as &=
quot;auth&quot; can be one or the other! From below, you intended authoriza=
tion.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>The =
=E2=80=9Cstep up=E2=80=9D that I mean here is from the client=E2=80=99s per=
spective, not from the AS/IdP=E2=80=99s perspective. The client wants more =
of something =E2=80=94 more access to an API, more user information, etc. I=
t=E2=80=99s likely that the AS is going to want to interact with the user t=
o include whatever additional access the client is asking for, but the clie=
nt doesn=E2=80=99t want to start from scratch. You=E2=80=99ve got a ticket =
that=E2=80=99s good to see one movie, and you want to add another movie to =
it for after. The theater already knows who you are and how to get your mon=
ey, so they can just add it on.</div><div><br></div><div>It=E2=80=99s entir=
ely feasible that the process of asking for more information would prompt t=
he AS to re-authenticate the user, including prompting them for additional =
credentials. However, from the client=E2=80=99s view, that=E2=80=99s a side=
-effect of its request.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>T=
he step-up authentication is a policy decision independent of the Client. T=
he User is having to provide additional authorization.</div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-=
wrap: break-word;"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div><div>Remembering user consent and delivering claims are two completely =
separate problems and should not be conflated here. I was addressing the fo=
rmer.=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>They are related th=
ough. If you are not wanting to ask for consent on each delivery, how do yo=
u know you have consent?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>We are talking past each other. They=E2=80=99re related in the sense =
that they=E2=80=99re both a part of the authorization process, but consenti=
ng to the release of information and the delivery of that information are c=
ompletely separate from each other.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div>Consent is required to release the information. That is ho=
w they are related.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div>=
<br></div><div>Consent is not the client=E2=80=99s policy, that=E2=80=99s t=
he AS=E2=80=99s policy. My consent is stored on the AS. </div></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>Maybe. Maybe not.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap:=
 break-word;"><div><div>The client can&#39;t know if this is the =E2=80=9Cf=
irst=E2=80=9D time or not because it doesn=E2=80=99t know who I am yet, so =
it can=E2=80=99t ask if I should consent again. If the client knows who I a=
m, it doesn=E2=80=99t need to ask the AS to log me in in the first place.=
=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Did you spend anyt=
ime looking at my &quot;authentication first&quot; proposal in -01?</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>The Client asks the AS to authenticate the User, and send=
 that result, then the Client can decide what, if anything it wants to requ=
est for that User. The AS no longer needs to maintain state.</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"ov=
erflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>However, once I=E2=80=99=
m interacting with the AS, the AS has a chance of figuring things out. The =
AS can determine if it=E2=80=99s seen the same client before, if it=E2=80=
=99s seen the same user before, and if the same client is making the same r=
equest for the same user, and the AS knows that it can make that decision w=
ithout prompting the user. We already do exactly this today with OAuth 2 an=
d OIDC systems.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Som=
etimes. Sometimes not. The specifications are mute on saving state.</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>But the AS does :n=
ot: know which profile and identity claims the client actually :needs:. The=
 only party able to make that decision is the client, and it can only make =
that decision once it has a reference to which user is there (in terms of a=
n identifier). The AS can (and I argue should) give the client some kind of=
 key for helping make that decision.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The pus=
h of user information into an OAuth-protected API, and separating it from t=
he authentication context, is one of the best parts of OpenID Connect. Yes,=
 the client can always request the user info as long as it has the access t=
oken =E2=80=94 and to me that=E2=80=99s a feature, because the client is th=
e component that knows when it needs updated info.=C2=A0</div></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is where consent and delivery are rela=
ted. If the user info has been updated, has the User provided consent for t=
he Client to receive it? The AS is the endpoint that can interact with the =
user, not the UserInfo endpoint.</div><div><br></div><div>Why not just go b=
ack to the AS and ask for the data again. If consent is not required, the A=
S returns the data. If consent is required, the AS can interact with the Us=
er to get it.</div><div><br></div><div>The UserInfo endpoint seems redundan=
t if the Client can get the claims from the AS.</div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D=
"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>Y=
our comments have inspired me on a solution that can be done with XAuth (or=
 XYZ) that can&#39;t be done with OAuth 2.0/OIDC.</div><div><br></div><div>=
I&#39;ll add that to the XAuth draft and publish it.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div=
><br></div><div>11. XAuth defines an explicit discovery step because the cl=
ient now needs to know several things about the server. The mix-up attack a=
nd a few other attacks in OAuth 2 stem from this kind of process. In XYZ, t=
he client really only needs to know the transaction endpoint URL and it lea=
rns everything else from that point. Yes, the client needs to discover that=
 someplace =E2=80=94 but it was a deliberate decision in limiting the amoun=
t of upfront information that the client needs to get started.</div></div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That is still discovery, is it =
not?</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><br></div>I literally just called it that in the sentence above, so yes. :=
) What you=E2=80=99re discovering is different though. And doesn=E2=80=99t =
the client still need to =E2=80=9Cdiscover=E2=80=9D the discovery endpoint =
in XAuth?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What discovery endpoi=
nt?=C2=A0=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The=
 charter currently includes =E2=80=9CAS discovery=E2=80=9D, per your reques=
t to add it. To me, and I would argue to most, =E2=80=9Cdiscovery=E2=80=9D =
is a programmatic process. If it=E2=80=99s manual, it=E2=80=99s not really =
the client =E2=80=9Cdiscovering=E2=80=9D anything, it=E2=80=99s being told =
things manually by a developer. That=E2=80=99s not discovery as the term is=
 generally known, and I think this is a key source of confusion here. There=
 is no =E2=80=9Cdiscovery=E2=80=9D that=E2=80=99s not programmatic =E2=80=
=94 that=E2=80=99s configuration.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>I think of discovery is going to the AS and learning what it can d=
o -- since discovery is learning. That can be the developer going to the AS=
 docs and reading, or the Client calling a discovery API.=C2=A0</div><div><=
br></div><div>After manual discovery, the developer decides how to manually=
 configure the Client, based on what was discovered when reading the docume=
ntation.</div><div><br></div><div>I have found it useful to call out the ma=
nual discovery so that implementors know where the information comes from. =
IE it is not in the specification.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div=
></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px"><img alt=3D"=
" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" src=3D"https://mailfoo=
gae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJkdEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzeroc=
ontent&amp;guid=3D0fad3742-5ae3-4d52-8b35-f83cf32dd7d6"><font color=3D"#fff=
fff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7</font></div>

--00000000000087b7ee059d771a72--


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Subject: [Txauth] use case document?
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As I reflect on my conversations with Justin, a set of use cases would help
guide us. We could then refer to a use case as why a feature is present and
see how different features support (or don't support) different use cases.

We can also use the document to decide which use cases are in scope, or out
of scope.

I'll put up my hand to edit. Who is interested in contributing?

/Dick
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<div dir=3D"ltr">As I reflect on my conversations with Justin, a set of use=
 cases would help guide us. We could then refer to a use case as why a feat=
ure is present and see how different features support (or don&#39;t support=
) different use cases.<div><br></div><div>We can also use the document to d=
ecide which use cases are in scope, or out of scope.<br><div><br></div><div=
>I&#39;ll put up my hand to edit. Who is interested in contributing?</div><=
/div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div></div><div hspace=3D"streak-pt-mark" st=
yle=3D"max-height:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D"width:0px;max-height:0px;over=
flow:hidden" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=3DaZGljay5oYXJk=
dEBnbWFpbC5jb20%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D3a060f24-2ded-4abe-b06=
c-717b8e037409"><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7</font></div>

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