From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 1 09:49:31 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA23180 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18852; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:32:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8594589 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:32:38 -0400 Approved-By: michael@BAILEY.DSCGA.COM Received: from sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.194.41]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02792 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from enoshima (dhcp-100-211.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.195.211]) by sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) with ESMTP id OAA22520; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:47:26 +0900 (JST) X-Sender: duerst@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58.J Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.J.20000601140632.02ce3b60@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:13:56 +0900 Reply-To: "Martin J. Duerst" From: "Martin J. Duerst" Subject: Change prefix? (was: Re: A word from the chair...) To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: <39348330.36C27A6F@thinkingcat.com> Hello Leslie, I'm pretty much sure I haven't been able to read all the messages on this topic, but it seemed to me that things might get a lot easier if the prefix were changed from urn:pin: to something like urn:nispin: or whatever. I guess many people won't like that because it's not enough 'urn-like', but any name that was a bit longer than just 'pin', and would somehow not give the impression that this was THE person identification number, would be helpful. Regards, Martin. At 00/05/30 23:12 -0400, Leslie Daigle wrote: >Hi all, > >Putting my dusty WG chair hat back on... I think we've had some >useful discussion airing perceptions of use of URNs/resolution. >There may well be more issues to pursue here, so general discussion >of the issues may continue. > >However, I'm not hearing a lot of people pushing back on/offering >specific comments to the URN:PIN proposal. If there aren't >yells from new quarters, I will declare the issue closed, and >when the revised URN:PIN Internet-Draft comes out, comments >should be limited to the changes in the text (i.e., new issues). > >So, if you have a strong opinion either way, not yet aired, please >do so or forever hold... whatever you'd like to hold for a long time >;-) > >Leslie. >-- > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >"My body obeys Aristotelian laws of physics." > -- ThinkingCat > >Leslie Daigle >leslie@thinkingcat.com >------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 1 11:06:16 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25210 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:06:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08585; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8594732 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:56:30 -0400 Received: from bailey.dscga.com (bailey.dscga.com [198.78.9.11]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08560 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:56:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bailey.dscga.com (8.9.1/) id KAA18694; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:39:36 -0400 (EDT) References: <39348330.36C27A6F@thinkingcat.com> <4.2.0.58.J.20000601140632.02ce3b60@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.2i Approved-By: Michael Mealling Message-ID: <20000601103935.B18677@bailey.dscga.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:39:35 -0400 Reply-To: michaelm@netsol.com From: Michael Mealling Subject: Re: Change prefix? (was: Re: A word from the chair...) To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.J.20000601140632.02ce3b60@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp>; from duerst@W3.ORG on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 02:13:56PM +0900 On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 02:13:56PM +0900, Martin J. Duerst wrote: > I'm pretty much sure I haven't been able to read all the > messages on this topic, but it seemed to me that things > might get a lot easier if the prefix were changed from > urn:pin: to something like urn:nispin: or whatever. > > I guess many people won't like that because it's not > enough 'urn-like', but any name that was a bit longer > than just 'pin', and would somehow not give the impression > that this was THE person identification number, would > be helpful. The question becomes this: is this a new policy? I.e. if OCLC wanted to create a PURL URN namespace would we require then to register it as oclc-purl? If so then that sounds like vendor tree policy statement that needs to be explicit. If it isn't then it sounds very arbitrary.... -MM -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | www.rwhois.net/michael Sr. Research Engineer | www.ga.lp.org/gwinnett | ICQ#: 14198821 Network Solutions | www.lp.org | michaelm@netsol.com From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 1 13:32:07 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28194 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11758; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8594948 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:20:50 -0400 Approved-By: michael@BAILEY.DSCGA.COM Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06782 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216-164-223-171.s171.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.171] helo=insta.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12xYC9-0001cK-00; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:51:45 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.13-2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <39348330.36C27A6F@thinkingcat.com> <4.2.0.58.J.20000601140632.02ce3b60@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> <20000601103935.B18677@bailey.dscga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <393694CA.FA7A2AFD@insta.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:52:26 -0400 Reply-To: "Stephen D. Williams" From: "Stephen D. Williams" Organization: Insta.com, Inc. Subject: Re: Change prefix? (was: Re: A word from the chair...) To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Mealling wrote: > On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 02:13:56PM +0900, Martin J. Duerst wrote: > > I'm pretty much sure I haven't been able to read all the > > messages on this topic, but it seemed to me that things > > might get a lot easier if the prefix were changed from > > urn:pin: to something like urn:nispin: or whatever. > > > > I guess many people won't like that because it's not > > enough 'urn-like', but any name that was a bit longer > > than just 'pin', and would somehow not give the impression > > that this was THE person identification number, would > > be helpful. > > The question becomes this: is this a new policy? I.e. if > OCLC wanted to create a PURL URN namespace would we require > then to register it as oclc-purl? > > If so then that sounds like vendor tree policy statement > that needs to be explicit. If it isn't then it sounds > very arbitrary.... It seems common sensical, not arbitrary at all. The use of 'generic' namespace names in a non-fully-public way is what seems arbitrary. > -MM > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | www.rwhois.net/michael > Sr. Research Engineer | www.ga.lp.org/gwinnett | ICQ#: 14198821 > Network Solutions | www.lp.org | michaelm@netsol.com sdw -- Insta.com - Revolutionary E-Business Communication sdw@insta.com Stephen D. Williams Senior Consultant/Architect http://sdw.st 43392 Wayside Cir,Ashburn,VA 20147-4622 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax Jan2000 From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 1 14:04:40 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28680 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:04:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18625; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8595037 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:55:24 -0400 Received: from bailey.dscga.com (bailey.dscga.com [198.78.9.11]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18597 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:55:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bailey.dscga.com (8.9.1/) id NAA19212; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:38:27 -0400 (EDT) References: <39348330.36C27A6F@thinkingcat.com> <4.2.0.58.J.20000601140632.02ce3b60@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> <20000601103935.B18677@bailey.dscga.com> <393694CA.FA7A2AFD@insta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.2i Approved-By: Michael Mealling Message-ID: <20000601133827.L18677@bailey.dscga.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:38:27 -0400 Reply-To: michaelm@netsol.com From: Michael Mealling Subject: Re: Change prefix? (was: Re: A word from the chair...) To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: <393694CA.FA7A2AFD@insta.com>; from sdw@INSTA.COM on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 12:52:26PM -0400 On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 12:52:26PM -0400, Stephen D. Williams wrote: > Michael Mealling wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 02:13:56PM +0900, Martin J. Duerst wrote: > > > I'm pretty much sure I haven't been able to read all the > > > messages on this topic, but it seemed to me that things > > > might get a lot easier if the prefix were changed from > > > urn:pin: to something like urn:nispin: or whatever. > > > > > > I guess many people won't like that because it's not > > > enough 'urn-like', but any name that was a bit longer > > > than just 'pin', and would somehow not give the impression > > > that this was THE person identification number, would > > > be helpful. > > > > The question becomes this: is this a new policy? I.e. if > > OCLC wanted to create a PURL URN namespace would we require > > then to register it as oclc-purl? > > > > If so then that sounds like vendor tree policy statement > > that needs to be explicit. If it isn't then it sounds > > very arbitrary.... > > It seems common sensical, not arbitrary at all. The use of 'generic' > namespace names in a non-fully-public way is what seems arbitrary. That may be your opinion but it isn't stated anywhere in the documents or in any other IETF standard or stated policy.... -MM -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | www.rwhois.net/michael Sr. Research Engineer | www.ga.lp.org/gwinnett | ICQ#: 14198821 Network Solutions | www.lp.org | michaelm@netsol.com From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 1 20:58:18 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA08014 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03854; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8595716 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:12:01 -0400 Approved-By: michael@BAILEY.DSCGA.COM Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03365 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from carol (h00a0cc5364a4.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.116.246]) by life.ai.mit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/AI2.13/ai.master.life:2.20) with SMTP id UAA13263; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:03:15 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:35:21 -0400 Reply-To: Phillip Hallam-Baker From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Subject: Re: Change prefix? (was: Re: A word from the chair...) To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: <20000601133827.L18677@bailey.dscga.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > It seems common sensical, not arbitrary at all. The use of 'generic' > > namespace names in a non-fully-public way is what seems arbitrary. > > That may be your opinion but it isn't stated anywhere in the documents > or in any other IETF standard or stated policy.... I thought the idea here was persistent names. If anyone can tell Michael for certain whether his business card will have Network Solutions or VeriSign on it as the company name in six months time they would be doing well. And folk want that name bound into a URN supposedly persistent for a century... Corporate names are simply not persistent. Attempting to build trees is silly. I have just had to rework my homepage after bankboston changed the url for their home banking service to homelink.fleet.com. Phill From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 1 21:08:13 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA08151 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05894; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8595713 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:21:42 -0400 Approved-By: michael@BAILEY.DSCGA.COM Received: from jungledrums.com.au (jungledrums.com.au [203.33.146.250] (may be forged)) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02220 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CPE-24-192-73-170.QLD.BIGPOND.NET.AU by jungledrums.com.au with SMTP (QuickMail Pro Server for MacOS 1.1.2); 02-Jun-2000 09:56:16 +1000 X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.0 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <221044.3168928598@localhost> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:56:38 +1000 Reply-To: Renato Iannella From: Renato Iannella Subject: Re: Change prefix? (was: Re: A word from the chair...) To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: <20000601133827.L18677@bailey.dscga.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 1/6/00 1:38 PM -0400 Michael Mealling wrote: >> It seems common sensical, not arbitrary at all. The use of 'generic' >> namespace names in a non-fully-public way is what seems arbitrary. > > That may be your opinion but it isn't stated anywhere in the documents > or in any other IETF standard or stated policy.... This is true, however, RFC2611 states that Namespace IDs are "Assigned by IANA. In some contexts, a particular one may be requested" Network Solutions has requested "PIN" (which it has the right to do). It is up to IANA to actually assign the NID. Cheers...Renato Chief Scientist, IPR Systems Pty Ltd ...............................unlocking the value of information From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 1 21:19:21 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA08186 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07278; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:28:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8595799 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:28:27 -0400 Approved-By: michael@BAILEY.DSCGA.COM Received: from rbuzz.com (rbuzz.techparkwa.org.au [203.103.99.144] (may be forged)) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05202 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:18:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: Received: from rbuzz.com (IDENT:justin@phoenix.rbuzz.com [192.168.2.15]) by rbuzz.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e520FTO17347 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:15:29 +0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <39348330.36C27A6F@thinkingcat.com> <4.2.0.58.J.20000601140632.02ce3b60@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> <20000601103935.B18677@bailey.dscga.com> <393694CA.FA7A2AFD@insta.com> <20000601133827.L18677@bailey.dscga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3936FCA1.E602A93@rbuzz.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:15:29 +0800 Reply-To: justin@RBUZZ.COM From: Justin Couch Organization: rBuzz Subject: Re: Change prefix? (was: Re: A word from the chair...) To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Mealling wrote: > > It seems common sensical, not arbitrary at all. The use of 'generic' > > namespace names in a non-fully-public way is what seems arbitrary. > > That may be your opinion but it isn't stated anywhere in the documents > or in any other IETF standard or stated policy.... Good point. The standard approach of the IETF is protocols not policy so I'm not sure if it is in our interests to state this. I like the idea of the non-generic statement perhaps that can be a "recommended practice" if at all possible. Problem is that it requires policing by somebody which I don't think we want to do :) -- Justin Couch Author, Java Hacker Snr Software Engineer justin@rbuzz.com rbuzz.net http://www.vlc.com.au/~justin/ Java3D FAQ http://www.j3d.org/faq/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Look through the lens, and the light breaks down into many lights. Turn it or move it, and a new set of arrangements appears... is it a single light or many lights, lights that one must know how to distinguish, recognise and appreciate? Is it one light with many frames or one frame for many lights?" -Subcomandante Marcos ------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 1 22:41:30 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10988 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26981; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:04:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8595979 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:04:36 -0400 Received: from bailey.dscga.com (bailey.dscga.com [198.78.9.11]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26947 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:04:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bailey.dscga.com (8.9.1/) id VAA20432; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:47:25 -0400 (EDT) References: <393694CA.FA7A2AFD@insta.com> <39348330.36C27A6F@thinkingcat.com> <4.2.0.58.J.20000601140632.02ce3b60@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> <20000601103935.B18677@bailey.dscga.com> <393694CA.FA7A2AFD@insta.com> <20000601133827.L18677@bailey.dscga.com> <4.2.0.58.J.20000602100525.009db350@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.2i Approved-By: Michael Mealling Message-ID: <20000601214724.C20350@bailey.dscga.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:47:24 -0400 Reply-To: michaelm@netsol.com From: Michael Mealling Subject: Re: Change prefix? (was: Re: A word from the chair...) To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.J.20000602100525.009db350@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp>; from duerst@w3.org on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 10:09:25AM +0900 On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 10:09:25AM +0900, Martin J. Duerst wrote: > Michael - Is it stated (IETF or somebody else relevant) > policy that urn namespace names are given out to registrants > on a first come, first serve base? If yes, can you tell me where? I don't know if you'd call it "first come first served" but it is fairly explicit in RFC 2611 Section 4.0 part III. The document does say the NID is is assigned by IETF concensus. But the point is that if the IETF concensus is that people won't get the NID they ask for then there needs to be some reason why other than "just cause" or else why even ask in the first place? Also, if the concensus says that we don't get 'PIN' as the NID we request then we will withdraw the document and the request and wait until the process becomes a little bit more deterministic. > If not, can you tell me why you implicitly assume > this is the policy, or what policy you think applies? Section III states that if you want a URN namespace with a specific 'short' NID then you follow these steps: submit a draft, get comments, edit it accordingly or withdraw it, submit for RFC publication (any status), and then you get your NID from the IANA. > If no, this means that there is no policy for urn namespace > names assignements, and that most probably means that somebody > somehow has to create one. Here's the relevant section to save you looking for it: III. Formal: These are processed through an RFC review process. The RFC need not be standards-track. The template defined in section 3.0 may be included as part of an RFC defining some other aspect of the namespace, or it may be put forward as an RFC in its own right. The proposed template should be sent to the urn-nid@apps.ietf.org mailing list to allow for a 2 week discussion period for clarifying the expression of the registration information, before the IESG progresses the document to RFC status. A particular NID string is requested, and is assigned by IETF consensus (as defined in [RFC2434]), with the additional constraints that the NID string must - not be an already-registered NID - not start with "x-" (see Type I above) - not start with "urn-" (see Type II above) - not start with "XY-", where XY is any combination of 2 ASCII letters (see NOTE, below) - be more than 2 letters long -MM -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | www.rwhois.net/michael Sr. Research Engineer | www.ga.lp.org/gwinnett | ICQ#: 14198821 Network Solutions | www.lp.org | michaelm@netsol.com From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 1 22:48:01 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11122 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26618; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8595967 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:03:07 -0400 Approved-By: michael@BAILEY.DSCGA.COM Received: from sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.194.41]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19526 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from enoshima (dhcp-100-211.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.195.211]) by sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) with ESMTP id KAA29975; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:18:56 +0900 (JST) X-Sender: duerst@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58.J References: <393694CA.FA7A2AFD@insta.com> <39348330.36C27A6F@thinkingcat.com> <4.2.0.58.J.20000601140632.02ce3b60@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> <20000601103935.B18677@bailey.dscga.com> <393694CA.FA7A2AFD@insta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.J.20000602100525.009db350@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:09:25 +0900 Reply-To: "Martin J. Duerst" From: "Martin J. Duerst" Subject: Re: Change prefix? (was: Re: A word from the chair...) To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: <20000601133827.L18677@bailey.dscga.com> Michael - Is it stated (IETF or somebody else relevant) policy that urn namespace names are given out to registrants on a first come, first serve base? If yes, can you tell me where? If not, can you tell me why you implicitly assume this is the policy, or what policy you think applies? If no, this means that there is no policy for urn namespace names assignements, and that most probably means that somebody somehow has to create one. Regards, Martin. At 00/06/01 13:38 -0400, Michael Mealling wrote: >On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 12:52:26PM -0400, Stephen D. Williams wrote: > > Michael Mealling wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 02:13:56PM +0900, Martin J. Duerst wrote: > > > > I'm pretty much sure I haven't been able to read all the > > > > messages on this topic, but it seemed to me that things > > > > might get a lot easier if the prefix were changed from > > > > urn:pin: to something like urn:nispin: or whatever. > > > > > > > > I guess many people won't like that because it's not > > > > enough 'urn-like', but any name that was a bit longer > > > > than just 'pin', and would somehow not give the impression > > > > that this was THE person identification number, would > > > > be helpful. > > > > > > The question becomes this: is this a new policy? I.e. if > > > OCLC wanted to create a PURL URN namespace would we require > > > then to register it as oclc-purl? > > > > > > If so then that sounds like vendor tree policy statement > > > that needs to be explicit. If it isn't then it sounds > > > very arbitrary.... > > > > It seems common sensical, not arbitrary at all. The use of 'generic' > > namespace names in a non-fully-public way is what seems arbitrary. > >That may be your opinion but it isn't stated anywhere in the documents >or in any other IETF standard or stated policy.... > >-MM > >-- >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- >Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | >www.rwhois.net/michael >Sr. Research Engineer | www.ga.lp.org/gwinnett | >ICQ#: 14198821 >Network Solutions | www.lp.org | michaelm@netsol.com From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 1 23:34:10 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11864 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:34:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10989; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:17:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8596153 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:17:05 -0400 Approved-By: michael@BAILEY.DSCGA.COM Received: from field.videotron.net (field.videotron.net [205.151.222.108]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03329 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thinkingcat.com ([216.113.1.64]) by field.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8) with ESMTP id <0FVI00HZ395PP4@field.videotron.net> for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:20:14 -0400 (EDT) MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <4.2.0.58.J.20000601140632.02ce3b60@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> Message-ID: <39371965.386EBDD7@thinkingcat.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:18:13 -0400 Reply-To: Leslie Daigle From: Leslie Daigle Organization: Thinking Cat Enterprises Subject: Re: Change prefix? (was: Re: A word from the chair...) To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I appreciate the thought that has been put into expressing concerns, and recognize that there are some real concerns and uncertainty here. I can't say that some of the concerns expressed here won't turn out to be true. But I don't see WG work here. I haven't heard consensus that the mechanical process (RFC2611) is viewed as being fundamentally broken because it does admit URN:PIN. We discussed these issues when we put together the process, RFC2611 was the outcome, and I don't see new enlightenment now. Passing judgement on every proposal, dismissing the ones from proposers that are not trusted is not a process. We can't build a process that will admit only the things we all like. We don't (yet) have evidence that RFC2611 should be "fixed". So, I suggest we move on. Leslie. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "My body obeys Aristotelian laws of physics." -- ThinkingCat Leslie Daigle leslie@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 1 23:43:46 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11929 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:43:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13452; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8596198 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:29:40 -0400 Received: from bailey.dscga.com (bailey.dscga.com [198.78.9.11]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13430 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bailey.dscga.com (8.9.1/) id XAA20565; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:12:39 -0400 (EDT) References: <20000601133827.L18677@bailey.dscga.com> <221044.3168928598@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.2i Approved-By: Michael Mealling Message-ID: <20000601231239.F20350@bailey.dscga.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:12:39 -0400 Reply-To: michaelm@netsol.com From: Michael Mealling Subject: Re: Change prefix? (was: Re: A word from the chair...) To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: <221044.3168928598@localhost>; from renato@IPRSYSTEMS.COM on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 09:56:38AM +1000 On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 09:56:38AM +1000, Renato Iannella wrote: > --On 1/6/00 1:38 PM -0400 Michael Mealling wrote: > >> It seems common sensical, not arbitrary at all. The use of 'generic' > >> namespace names in a non-fully-public way is what seems arbitrary. > > > > That may be your opinion but it isn't stated anywhere in the documents > > or in any other IETF standard or stated policy.... > > This is true, however, RFC2611 states that Namespace IDs are > "Assigned by IANA. In some contexts, a particular one may be > requested" > > Network Solutions has requested "PIN" (which it has the right to do). > It is up to IANA to actually assign the NID. Actually, the IANA assigns whatever "IETF concensus" comes up with. Now if the "IETF concensus" comes up with something other than what we requested we will withdraw the request until the process becomes a little bit more deterministic... -MM -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | www.rwhois.net/michael Sr. Research Engineer | www.ga.lp.org/gwinnett | ICQ#: 14198821 Network Solutions | www.lp.org | michaelm@netsol.com From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Fri Jun 2 12:56:28 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07249 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16935; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:45:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8597301 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:45:39 -0400 Approved-By: michael@BAILEY.DSCGA.COM Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (ASTRO.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.93.168]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16406 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:43:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19117; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <200006021637.MAA19117@astro.cs.utk.edu> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:37:26 -0400 Reply-To: Keith Moore From: Keith Moore Subject: Re: Change prefix? (was: Re: A word from the chair...) To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: Message from Michael Mealling of "Thu, 01 Jun 2000 21:47:24 EDT." <20000601214724.C20350@bailey.dscga.com> > On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 10:09:25AM +0900, Martin J. Duerst wrote: > > Michael - Is it stated (IETF or somebody else relevant) > > policy that urn namespace names are given out to registrants > > on a first come, first serve base? If yes, can you tell me where? > > I don't know if you'd call it "first come first served" but > it is fairly explicit in RFC 2611 Section 4.0 part III. > The document does say the NID is is assigned by IETF concensus. > But the point is that if the IETF concensus is that people won't > get the NID they ask for then there needs to be some reason why > other than "just cause" or else why even ask in the first place? in other cases where IETF makes decisions by consensus, there only needs to be a consensus on the decision itself. there does not need to be a consensus as to the reason why. a concrete example is patent validity - when approving a specification for proposed standard, or for advancement in grade, IETF itself will not try to decide whether the patent is valid or whether it applies to the specification. however, any number of participants might decide that the existence of that patent prevents them from implementing the specification, or, alternatively, that the patent doesn't get in the way. but even if there is consensus about whether to adopt the spec, they don't have to agree on why the spec should or should not be adopted. for the example of a spec which uses patented technology, some folks might believe that they can license the technology at a reasonable price, others might believe that the patent doesn't apply, others might believe that the patent is easily invalidated by prior art, and the patent holder might support the spec because he believes that he can make a hundred million bucks if it gets approved. but the outcome of the consensus process is either "yes" or "no" (or a different spec). at a distance, this might look like "just 'cause", even though the individuals' decisions were more detailed than that. Keith From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Fri Jun 2 17:13:28 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA14605 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07753; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:58:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8597777 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:58:52 -0400 Approved-By: michael@BAILEY.DSCGA.COM Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07373 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21061 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2000 20:51:18 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 2 Jun 2000 20:51:18 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by prop.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18281 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:51:18 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from tallen@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA10183 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:51:18 -0700 Message-ID: <200006022051.NAA10183@sonic.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:51:18 -0700 Reply-To: Terry Allen From: Terry Allen Subject: re change prefix To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET I don't see where patent validity is related to the issue at hand. Michael is right that there has to be some rationale for denying a NID, else we'll end up with a total mess (and possibly litigation). If people think that "PIN" is holy, we'd better give up the notion of allowing NIDs to be requested and go back to assigning meaningless one. However, after Michael revises his document, he may see that "PIN" in the sense of "personal identification number" isn't apropos anyway - the named thing is more like "unconfirmed biodata". regards, Terry From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Tue Jun 13 06:08:16 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA01386 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:08:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA12008; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 05:48:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8616238 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 05:48:23 -0400 Received: from donald.zblmath.fiz-karlsruhe.de (donald.zblmath.FIZ-Karlsruhe.DE [141.66.176.200]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA11978 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 05:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zblmath.fiz-karlsruhe.de (cens.zblmath.fiz-karlsruhe.de [141.66.176.12]) by donald.zblmath.fiz-karlsruhe.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA32412 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:43:00 +0200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Approved-By: derr@ZBLMATH.FIZ-KARLSRUHE.DE Message-ID: <3946018E.210B152B@zblmath.fiz-karlsruhe.de> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:40:31 +0200 Reply-To: Michael Derr From: Michael Derr Subject: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear IETF-URN WG, I am contacting you to ask for your comments about some general as well as specific questions on URNs. I am working on the possibility of URN-implementations and applications for scientific electronic resources. In my opinion some problems are not completely clear. Because of your experience with the development process of URNs I would like to ask you specifically: - is the URN-Net a proposal for a global resolution system and a service for the future or do there already exist realizations of this URN-NET-system? If the URN-Net is a proposal, what do you think about the possibility of realizing such a project and what might be the reasons in possibly preventing the development of an URN-Net? What is the present technological infrastructure or method of retrieving a resource using URNs? - as far as I know some institutions build up their own resolution system (because of lack of a global resolution system). Nevertheless these institutions have intentions to register their namespace: Why is it important to do that right now - for a URN-NET in the future? How many registered namespaces are in use today? And finally who is (will) going to manage and maintain the URN-NET and the registration service for (IETF/IANA)? - there seem to be two alternatives to let the browser know how to handle a "urn:": solution via plug-in and second solution via proxy server. Do you have any experience with these two alternatives and what is probably the current best solution? Are there any other possibilities? Is there an actual development for the next browser generation which enable to handle the new protocol "urn:"? I have tested the prototype browser AMAYA (developed by W3C) for this purpose. AMAYA does not support the URN-protocol. I'm interested in any feedback. best regards Michael From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Tue Jun 13 06:48:52 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA02031 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA21203; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:34:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8616335 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:34:28 -0400 Received: from suncom.itep.ru (suncom.itep.ru [193.124.225.35]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA20148 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:29:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heron.itep.ru (root@heron.itep.ru [192.148.166.130]) by suncom.itep.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02206; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:22:43 +0400 Received: from heron.itep.ru (anovikov@venus.itep.ru [192.148.166.133]) by heron.itep.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05777; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:19:51 +0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.15 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3946018E.210B152B@zblmath.fiz-karlsruhe.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Approved-By: anovikov@HERON.ITEP.RU Message-ID: <39460AD6.D432B5B1@heron.itep.ru> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:20:06 +0400 Reply-To: Alexei Novikov From: Alexei Novikov Organization: ITEP Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Derr wrote: > > Dear IETF-URN WG, > > I am contacting you to ask for your comments about some general as well > as specific questions on URNs. I am working on the possibility of > URN-implementations and applications for scientific electronic > resources. Hi Michael, Are you going to implement something like urn:hep-ph:0006103 for arXive.org data ? > > - there seem to be two alternatives to let the browser know how to > handle a "urn:": solution via plug-in and second solution via > proxy > server. > > Do you have any experience with these two alternatives and what is > probably the current best solution? Are there any other > possibilities? Squid Web caching server can do URN resolution using requests to the external N2L program (actually was able as its URN support is messed right now). Probably this can be a best solution at least for the European research community as it is already using caches. Alexei. From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Tue Jun 13 07:57:54 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA03913 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06047; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8616485 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:42:39 -0400 Received: from bailey.dscga.com (bailey.dscga.com [198.78.9.11]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06024 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bailey.dscga.com (8.9.1/) id HAA10542; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:26:19 -0400 (EDT) References: <3946018E.210B152B@zblmath.fiz-karlsruhe.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.2i Approved-By: Michael Mealling Message-ID: <20000613072619.C10477@bailey.dscga.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:26:19 -0400 Reply-To: michaelm@netsol.com From: Michael Mealling Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: <3946018E.210B152B@zblmath.fiz-karlsruhe.de>; from derr@zblmath.FIZ-Karlsruhe.DE on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:40:31AM +0200 On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:40:31AM +0200, Michael Derr wrote: > I am contacting you to ask for your comments about some general as well > as specific questions on URNs. I am working on the possibility of > URN-implementations and applications for scientific electronic > resources. > In my opinion some problems are not completely clear. Because of > your experience with the development process of URNs I would like to > ask you specifically: > > - is the URN-Net a proposal for a global resolution system and a > service for the future or do there already exist realizations of this > URN-NET-system? It exists but is currenlty in flux as it is suposed to 'start from scratch' as soon as the URN namespace registration process was setup. That was done a few months ago and so the URN.NET stuff is being re-setup under aegis of the IANA. NOTE: its also being moved to the urn.arpa domain instead of urn.net... > If the URN-Net is a proposal, what do you think about the possibility > of realizing such a project and what might be the reasons in possibly > preventing the development of an URN-Net? As we are in the midst of a re-deployment these are good questions. The DNS servers are available and working. One of the largest hurdles is making sure that browsers can handle the URN URI scheme. I have some plugins (see wwww.usrlocalsrc.org) but they're for IE only right now (and require intimate knowledge of VC++ to build). Any version of Netscape lower than Netscape 6 on Unix cannot use protocol plugins so that is one hurdle.... > What is the present technological infrastructure or method of > retrieving a resource using URNs? At present the URI resolution via DNS (urn.arpa) stuff is the only mechanism we have.... > - as far as I know some institutions build up their own resolution > system (because of lack of a global resolution system). Nevertheless > these > institutions have intentions to register their namespace: > Why is it important to do that right now - for a URN-NET in the > future? I suppose its only important to do that now if your URNs will make it outside your institution. That way if others see them they can find out what they are.... > How many registered namespaces are in use today? And finally who is > (will) going to manage and maintain the URN-NET and the registration > service for (IETF/IANA)? At present there is only 1 registered one. The reason is that the namespace registration process has only been setup for a few months. I personally have two in the middle of the process and I know of one more that is also in that process. Others are still figuring out how to design their namespace... The entity tha twill manage the urn-net service and registration process is the IANA.... > - there seem to be two alternatives to let the browser know how to > handle a "urn:": solution via plug-in and second solution via > proxy server. > > Do you have any experience with these two alternatives and what is > probably the current best solution? Are there any other > possibilities? The current best solution is a plugin. We are currently writing one which is under an Apache style open source license. The proxy option is 'ok' but not stellar in my opinion because it does not give the client any knowledge about the URN that it can use. > Is there an actual development for the next browser generation which > enable to handle the new protocol "urn:"? > I have tested the prototype browser AMAYA (developed by W3C) for > this purpose. AMAYA does not support the URN-protocol. Nope. If you could see my desktop you would see the libwww code that I'm currently hacking to make that happen. As soon as I have a skeleton I will see about checking that code in so others can help develop it. One of the largest hurdles is figuring out how to do the NAPTR DNS record requests in a cross platform manner. I think I have a solution but it'll be a few weeks before I can surface any real code.... > I'm interested in any feedback. Great. This was a good way to get a development status out to the community. I really hope we can get some open source style development going on. Especially in the area of browser support.... -MM -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | www.rwhois.net/michael Sr. Research Engineer | www.ga.lp.org/gwinnett | ICQ#: 14198821 Network Solutions | www.lp.org | michaelm@netsol.com From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Wed Jun 14 07:01:40 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA15299 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:01:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA18927; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 06:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8618026 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 06:48:18 -0400 Approved-By: michael@BAILEY.DSCGA.COM Received: from friendly.realnames.com (friendly.realnames.com [216.86.226.76]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA02908 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:09:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14956 invoked from network); 14 Jun 2000 03:59:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.3.111?) (10.1.3.111) by friendly.centraal.com with SMTP; 14 Jun 2000 03:59:14 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:03:32 -0700 Reply-To: Yves Arrouye From: Yves Arrouye Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: <39460AD6.D432B5B1@heron.itep.ru> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> - there seem to be two alternatives to let the browser know how to >> handle a "urn:": solution via plug-in and second solution via >> proxy >> server. >> >> Do you have any experience with these two alternatives and what is >> probably the current best solution? Are there any other >> possibilities? > > Squid Web caching server can do URN resolution using requests to the > external N2L program (actually was able as its URN support is messed > right now). Probably this can be a best solution at least for the > European research community as it is already using caches. I should also be able to dig up a C library doing URN resolution and a patch for Apache's proxy that will do that. The code was written in 1998 though, so it may not run as is. E-mail me if you are interested. YA From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Wed Jun 14 07:31:57 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA15885 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:31:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA25802; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8618105 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:22:20 -0400 Received: from gadget.lut.ac.uk (multics.lut.ac.uk [158.125.96.88]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA25779 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:22:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=gadget.lut.ac.uk) by gadget.lut.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 132B9U-0005KD-00 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:16:08 +0100 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 + martin Approved-By: Martin Hamilton Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:16:08 +0100 Reply-To: Martin Hamilton From: Martin Hamilton Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: Message from Michael Mealling of "Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:26:19 EDT." <20000613072619.C10477@bailey.dscga.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Michael Mealling writes: | Any version of Netscape lower than Netscape 6 on Unix cannot | use protocol plugins so that is one hurdle.... Hi folks. Just to be clear on this - if the browser is fetching a proxy autoconfig script, it is possible to supply it with the name and port number of a machine to speak proxy HTTP to for URN resolution, e.g. something like this should do the trick function FindProxyForURL(url, host) { ... other stuff if(url.substring(0,4) == "urn:") return "PROXY 1.2.3.4:5678"; ... other stuff } This is trying to say "URLs prefixed with 'urn:' should be requested via proxy HTTP through the server at IP address 1.2.3.4 and port 5678. Note that you have to make this accessible with the MIME content type application/x-ns-proxy-autoconfig. You can use a domain name rather than an IP address, but Netscape stupidly tries to look it up for every URL requested. Doh! Works with the Netscape 4.x family, but doesn't appear to with IE - though I haven't tried 5.5 :-) Could just be differences in their JavaScript/autoconfig support of course... | The current best solution is a plugin. We are currently writing one | which is under an Apache style open source license. The proxy option | is 'ok' but not stellar in my opinion because it does not give the | client any knowledge about the URN that it can use. I wouldn't write the proxy approach off altogether - e.g. as Alexei says proxies are heavily used in Europe. The proxy cache service I help to run has recently been shipping some 80m URLs/day (or around 800GB of content), with peak rates of ~155Mbit/s. We have usage based charging to thank for its success! Admittedly, ISPs tend to use transparent proxying, to avoid having to get browser configs right. In academia explicit configuration is pretty common, and you gotta start somewhere... The proxy doesn't need to be a Squid server (proxy cache with a bit of built-in URN support), of course. Cheers, Martin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBOUdpd9ZdpXZXTSjhAQG5zQQAjUYgt03gPM5zSSJoE5R7uP0TL1nNFjE0 livTzvui+ta7vXYaNXm4raEIUsRaR6Tx9Gxaglmudc4mTqD0ZJDF44SECdFLqvwz O/Ipc4udzv6x8AsfXRkJ8nMcPF17P3uMS8G7h0dEETLN9DT8Orgma9wgX8OMhaQM 9l5pFaAj2lA= =NOKM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Wed Jun 14 11:41:49 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25600 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16418; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:23:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8618446 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:22:59 -0400 Received: from gadget.lut.ac.uk (multics.lut.ac.uk [158.125.96.88]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16356 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:22:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=gadget.lut.ac.uk) by gadget.lut.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 132EuM-0005yu-00 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:16:46 +0100 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 + martin Approved-By: Martin Hamilton Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:16:46 +0100 Reply-To: Martin Hamilton From: Martin Hamilton Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: Message from Michael Mealling of "Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:52:27 EDT." <20000614075227.A12427@bailey.dscga.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Michael Mealling writes: | Yep. This is their standard behavior. The code was basically: | if the protocol is urn: then use the general HTTP proxy. The URN | handler code was all of about 15 lines long.... BTW one to watch out for (with Netscape) is that if you have a manually configured proxy for HTTP URLs, stuff with the "urn:" prefix will be passed to it. But... if you autoconfigure, your autoconfig script has to actually include a case to deal with URNs or they'll be dropped on the floor. This does lead to the interesting possibility that some well meaning parties could set up testbed public URN resolvers. The people who are writing the proxy-autoconfig scripts (my counterparts elsewhere) would in turn simply have to add a couple of extra lines to their configs, and lo - all their Netscape users are URN enabled. If/when URNs really take off, a more scaleable approach would be necessitated, but in the meantime... (classic Internet design philosophy alert :-) | BTW, now that we're talking about development stuff: since we're | moving the urn.net stuff to urn.arpa, I have this urn.net domain | just hanging around. I could possibly turn it into a little | promo and development site... IMHO it would be handy to have a place with links to the specs, registrations, and whatever software is out there. Cheers, Martin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBOUeh3dZdpXZXTSjhAQHrOgP+M34ZBpBgroWipLnacE9tmkQBbk/tl7zw gmuwnf3rAsrP1Bv65PJawq9eGJRDDlNGs0sNwpFRfeJiBPFjoiw9uUKCiBjWP25E Gu4HE4svodF3pA4y+Vb6yr+Cjc+zro8g4AiV1s2SZIlFo7s1Wfq5FIZCkI6EcocX EyaseAL7uX8= =enV0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Wed Jun 14 11:45:13 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25695 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:45:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18558; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8618485 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:33:36 -0400 Received: from bailey.dscga.com (bailey.dscga.com [198.78.9.11]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18533 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bailey.dscga.com (8.9.1/) id LAA12949; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:16:41 -0400 (EDT) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.2i Approved-By: Michael Mealling Message-ID: <20000614111640.K12427@bailey.dscga.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:16:40 -0400 Reply-To: michaelm@netsol.com From: Michael Mealling Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: ; from martin@net.lut.ac.uk on Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 04:16:46PM +0100 On Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 04:16:46PM +0100, Martin Hamilton wrote: > Michael Mealling writes: > > | Yep. This is their standard behavior. The code was basically: > | if the protocol is urn: then use the general HTTP proxy. The URN > | handler code was all of about 15 lines long.... > > BTW one to watch out for (with Netscape) is that if you have a > manually configured proxy for HTTP URLs, stuff with the "urn:" prefix > will be passed to it. But... if you autoconfigure, your autoconfig > script has to actually include a case to deal with URNs or they'll be > dropped on the floor. But its still the same proxy? I.e. can I, using autoconfigure, set a URN proxy to be one host and the HTTP proxy to be another host? > This does lead to the interesting possibility that some well meaning > parties could set up testbed public URN resolvers. The people who are > writing the proxy-autoconfig scripts (my counterparts elsewhere) would > in turn simply have to add a couple of extra lines to their configs, > and lo - all their Netscape users are URN enabled. If/when URNs > really take off, a more scaleable approach would be necessitated, but > in the meantime... (classic Internet design philosophy alert :-) hehe... We actually had one once. I doubt it I could find the code. I'm sure the cache stuff in Apache has gotten to the point where it might be an easy hack... > | BTW, now that we're talking about development stuff: since we're > | moving the urn.net stuff to urn.arpa, I have this urn.net domain > | just hanging around. I could possibly turn it into a little > | promo and development site... > > IMHO it would be handy to have a place with links to the specs, > registrations, and whatever software is out there. I'll check and see what I have to do to get it setup... - MM -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | www.rwhois.net/michael Sr. Research Engineer | www.ga.lp.org/gwinnett | ICQ#: 14198821 Network Solutions | www.lp.org | michaelm@netsol.com From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Wed Jun 14 12:23:48 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27017 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:23:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26179; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8618651 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:07:58 -0400 Received: from solidum.com (wirespeed.solidum.com [216.13.130.242]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26148 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phobos.solidum.com (mcr@phobos.solidum.com [192.168.1.13]) by solidum.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00485 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:01:55 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Approved-By: Michael Richardson Message-ID: <200006141601.MAA00485@solidum.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:01:54 -0400 Reply-To: Michael Richardson From: Michael Richardson Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:16:08 BST." >>>>> "Martin" == Martin Hamilton writes: Martin> I wouldn't write the proxy approach off altogether - e.g. as Martin> Alexei says proxies are heavily used in Europe. The proxy cache Martin> service I help to run has recently been shipping some 80m Martin> URLs/day (or around 800GB of content), with peak rates of Martin> ~155Mbit/s. We have usage based charging to thank for its Martin> success! The various notes about Squid as a URN resolver on the squid forums seem to peter out with the realization that the best one could do is to redirect the client to an actual resource, (meaning they'll bookmark that page)... Or has this situation improved? My interest is in using the URN:IETF's on all our internal references and have our local corporate proxy return documents from our private RFC archive. It seems to me that what is required is that cache's that don't know where to find a local copy of a URN should in fact pass the URN to the next layer cache. :!mcr!: | Solidum Systems Corporation, http://www.solidum.com Michael Richardson |For a better connected world,where data flows faster Personal: http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/People/Michael_Richardson/Bio.html mailto:mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca mailto:mcr@solidum.com From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Wed Jun 14 12:42:56 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27700 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29348; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8618707 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:22:04 -0400 Received: from bailey.dscga.com (bailey.dscga.com [198.78.9.11]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29322 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bailey.dscga.com (8.9.1/) id MAA13106; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:04:50 -0400 (EDT) References: <200006141601.MAA00485@solidum.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.2i Approved-By: Michael Mealling Message-ID: <20000614120449.O12427@bailey.dscga.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:04:49 -0400 Reply-To: michaelm@netsol.com From: Michael Mealling Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: <200006141601.MAA00485@solidum.com>; from mcr@solidum.com on Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 12:01:54PM -0400 On Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 12:01:54PM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote: > >>>>> "Martin" == Martin Hamilton writes: > Martin> I wouldn't write the proxy approach off altogether - e.g. as > Martin> Alexei says proxies are heavily used in Europe. The proxy cache > Martin> service I help to run has recently been shipping some 80m > Martin> URLs/day (or around 800GB of content), with peak rates of > Martin> ~155Mbit/s. We have usage based charging to thank for its > Martin> success! > > The various notes about Squid as a URN resolver on the squid forums seem to > peter out with the realization that the best one could do is to redirect > the client to an actual resource, (meaning they'll bookmark that page)... > > Or has this situation improved? It depends. If your cache actually returns the object then the client actually bookmarks the URN instead of the redirected URL. If you rely completely on 301 and 302 redirects to a URL that the cache holds then yes, your still stuck with that case. What I would like to see is a 303 HTTP code where the cache can return multiple locations to the client. That way the client can cache the fact that it knows that the URN resolves to more than one URL. Then the cache can order the list based on what it already has in its cache.... > My interest is in using the URN:IETF's on all our internal references and > have our local corporate proxy return documents from our private RFC > archive. > It seems to me that what is required is that cache's that don't know > where to find a local copy of a URN should in fact pass the URN to the > next layer cache. Yep. Which is simply staged caching (which has potential problems if done incorrectly). The best thing is to realize that the URN specs say it is perfectly resonable to ask a local cache (which isn't authoritative, just local) first and then ask the resolution service. In that case your local cache would be configured to look in its local URN:IETF repository and return that. Hmm... that would require something in the cacheing mechanism to be able to communicate that the item(s) returned weren't authoritative... -MM -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | www.rwhois.net/michael Sr. Research Engineer | www.ga.lp.org/gwinnett | ICQ#: 14198821 Network Solutions | www.lp.org | michaelm@netsol.com From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Wed Jun 14 20:59:06 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06816 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:59:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17300; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8619489 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:48:08 -0400 Received: from rbuzz.com (rbuzz.techparkwa.org.au [203.103.99.144] (may be forged)) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17243 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:48:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: Received: from rbuzz.com (IDENT:justin@phoenix.rbuzz.com [192.168.2.15]) by rbuzz.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e5F0lRI14911 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:47:27 +0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20000614111640.K12427@bailey.dscga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Approved-By: justin@RBUZZ.COM Message-ID: <3948279F.50FA1F72@rbuzz.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:47:27 +0800 Reply-To: Justin Couch From: Justin Couch Organization: rBuzz Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Mealling wrote: > hehe... We actually had one once. I doubt it I could find the code. > I'm sure the cache stuff in Apache has gotten to the point where > it might be an easy hack... The apache source tree still has the urn.cgi code there. I compiled 1.3.12 at home on the weekend and it was part of the download bundle. -- Justin Couch Author, Java Hacker Software Architect justin@rbuzz.com rbuzz.net http://www.vlc.com.au/~justin/ Java3D FAQ http://www.j3d.org/faq/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Look through the lens, and the light breaks down into many lights. Turn it or move it, and a new set of arrangements appears... is it a single light or many lights, lights that one must know how to distinguish, recognise and appreciate? Is it one light with many frames or one frame for many lights?" -Subcomandante Marcos ------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Wed Jun 14 20:59:19 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06827 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18269; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8619503 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:50:41 -0400 Received: from rbuzz.com (rbuzz.techparkwa.org.au [203.103.99.144] (may be forged)) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17953 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:49:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: Received: from rbuzz.com (IDENT:justin@phoenix.rbuzz.com [192.168.2.15]) by rbuzz.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e5F0nJI14938 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:49:19 +0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <200006141601.MAA00485@solidum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Approved-By: justin@RBUZZ.COM Message-ID: <3948280F.CCF6CB4C@rbuzz.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:49:19 +0800 Reply-To: Justin Couch From: Justin Couch Organization: rBuzz Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Richardson wrote: > It seems to me that what is required is that cache's that don't know > where to find a local copy of a URN should in fact pass the URN to the > next layer cache. And hence you have a classic URN resolution system that uses multiple resolvers. If the cache can't find it, tell the client and then the client goes to the next resolver and asks it (eg direct to DNS). -- Justin Couch Author, Java Hacker Software Architect justin@rbuzz.com rbuzz.net http://www.vlc.com.au/~justin/ Java3D FAQ http://www.j3d.org/faq/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Look through the lens, and the light breaks down into many lights. Turn it or move it, and a new set of arrangements appears... is it a single light or many lights, lights that one must know how to distinguish, recognise and appreciate? Is it one light with many frames or one frame for many lights?" -Subcomandante Marcos ------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 15 04:23:41 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA24990 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04023; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:09:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8618212 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:09:30 -0400 Received: from bailey.dscga.com (bailey.dscga.com [198.78.9.11]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03994 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bailey.dscga.com (8.9.1/) id HAA12431; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:52:27 -0400 (EDT) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.2i Approved-By: Michael Mealling Message-ID: <20000614075227.A12427@bailey.dscga.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:52:27 -0400 Reply-To: michaelm@NETSOL.COM From: Michael Mealling Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: ; from martin@net.lut.ac.uk on Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 12:16:08PM +0100 On Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 12:16:08PM +0100, Martin Hamilton wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Michael Mealling writes: > > | Any version of Netscape lower than Netscape 6 on Unix cannot > | use protocol plugins so that is one hurdle.... > > Hi folks. Just to be clear on this - if the browser is fetching a > proxy autoconfig script, it is possible to supply it with the name and > port number of a machine to speak proxy HTTP to for URN resolution, > e.g. something like this should do the trick > > function FindProxyForURL(url, host) > { > > ... other stuff > > if(url.substring(0,4) == "urn:") > return "PROXY 1.2.3.4:5678"; > > ... other stuff > > } > > This is trying to say "URLs prefixed with 'urn:' should be requested > via proxy HTTP through the server at IP address 1.2.3.4 and port 5678. > Note that you have to make this accessible with the MIME content type > application/x-ns-proxy-autoconfig. You can use a domain name rather > than an IP address, but Netscape stupidly tries to look it up for > every URL requested. Doh! > > Works with the Netscape 4.x family, but doesn't appear to with IE - > though I haven't tried 5.5 :-) Could just be differences in their > JavaScript/autoconfig support of course... Yep. This is their standard behavior. The code was basically: if the protocol is urn: then use the general HTTP proxy. The URN handler code was all of about 15 lines long.... > | The current best solution is a plugin. We are currently writing one > | which is under an Apache style open source license. The proxy option > | is 'ok' but not stellar in my opinion because it does not give the > | client any knowledge about the URN that it can use. > > I wouldn't write the proxy approach off altogether - e.g. as Alexei > says proxies are heavily used in Europe. The proxy cache service I > help to run has recently been shipping some 80m URLs/day (or around > 800GB of content), with peak rates of ~155Mbit/s. We have usage based > charging to thank for its success! > > Admittedly, ISPs tend to use transparent proxying, to avoid having to > get browser configs right. In academia explicit configuration is > pretty common, and you gotta start somewhere... The proxy doesn't > need to be a Squid server (proxy cache with a bit of built-in URN > support), of course. Sure. My uber preferred solution is something where the cache and client know its a URN and both end up cacheing appropriate parts of the information. BTW, now that we're talking about development stuff: since we're moving the urn.net stuff to urn.arpa, I have this urn.net domain just hanging around. I could possibly turn it into a little promo and development site... -MM -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | www.rwhois.net/michael Sr. Research Engineer | www.ga.lp.org/gwinnett | ICQ#: 14198821 Network Solutions | www.lp.org | michaelm@netsol.com From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 15 05:42:01 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA25571 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 05:42:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA01391; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 05:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8620107 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 05:25:00 -0400 Received: from gadget.lut.ac.uk (multics.lut.ac.uk [158.125.96.88]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA01357 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 05:24:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=gadget.lut.ac.uk) by gadget.lut.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 132Vng-0008Hk-00 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:19:00 +0100 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 + martin Approved-By: Martin Hamilton Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:19:00 +0100 Reply-To: Martin Hamilton From: Martin Hamilton Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: Message from Michael Mealling of "Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:16:40 EDT." <20000614111640.K12427@bailey.dscga.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Michael Mealling writes: | But its still the same proxy? I.e. can I, using autoconfigure, | set a URN proxy to be one host and the HTTP proxy to be another host? Hi! Yep, that's the advantage of proxy autoconfiguration - the URN (proxy) resolver can be running on any port of any machine on the Internet, just so long as it speaks HTTP. Which leads us to... :-) FWIW the resolver simply has to be able to deal with HTTP requests received from the browser which look like this: GET urn:nid:nss HTTP/1.0 If it wanted to, it could return a temporary or permanent HTTP redirect, a page of HTML, whatever... Cheers, Martin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 + martin iD8DBQE5SJ+DVw+hz3xBJfQRAm4bAJwJas0VHSH9efuaDIvJQoi0JhYpMQCfXFhH xes1bDBPF49hgxsfL6JSDvE= =wBik -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 15 06:14:47 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA25795 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA07268; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 05:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8620203 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 05:53:00 -0400 Received: from rbuzz.com (rbuzz.techparkwa.org.au [203.103.99.144] (may be forged)) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA07236 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 05:52:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: Received: from rbuzz.com (IDENT:justin@phoenix.rbuzz.com [192.168.2.15]) by rbuzz.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e5F9qOI23390 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:52:24 +0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Approved-By: justin@RBUZZ.COM Message-ID: <3948A758.E2C1F174@rbuzz.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:52:24 +0800 Reply-To: Justin Couch From: Justin Couch Organization: rBuzz Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin Hamilton wrote: > FWIW the resolver simply has to be able to deal with HTTP requests > received from the browser which look like this: > > GET urn:nid:nss HTTP/1.0 Strictly speaking that is not correct as the GET needs to tell it "how" to resolve it. That is, does it resolve N2L, N2Ls, N2R etc etc. This is of course the THTTP spec for which there is an existing RFC (can't remember the number off-hand). -- Justin Couch Author, Java Hacker Software Architect justin@rbuzz.com rbuzz.net http://www.vlc.com.au/~justin/ Java3D FAQ http://www.j3d.org/faq/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Look through the lens, and the light breaks down into many lights. Turn it or move it, and a new set of arrangements appears... is it a single light or many lights, lights that one must know how to distinguish, recognise and appreciate? Is it one light with many frames or one frame for many lights?" -Subcomandante Marcos ------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 15 06:37:01 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA25921 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:37:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA12488; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:18:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8620272 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:18:28 -0400 Received: from suncom.itep.ru (IDENT:root@suncom.itep.ru [193.124.225.35]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA12454 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heron.itep.ru (root@heron.itep.ru [192.148.166.130]) by suncom.itep.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01838 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:13:30 +0400 Received: from heron.itep.ru (anovikov@venus.itep.ru [192.148.166.133]) by heron.itep.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24916 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:12:02 +0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.15 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Approved-By: anovikov@HERON.ITEP.RU Message-ID: <3948AC07.C1719248@heron.itep.ru> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:12:23 +0400 Reply-To: Alexei Novikov From: Alexei Novikov Organization: ITEP Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin Hamilton wrote: > > If it wanted to, it could return a temporary or permanent HTTP > redirect, a page of HTML, whatever... > And Squid is returning (after it contacted the URN resolver) the HTTP page with the list of URLs with information if particular resource is cached already and sorted by latency (optionally). Alexei. BTW I was wondering if it will not lead to HUGE confusion if we will implement x-tracker namespace as an URN namespace (for the support of Mirror Tracker inside various Web Cache servers), although the nss are not time persistent ? From owner-urn-ietf@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Thu Jun 15 07:41:18 2000 Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA27401 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.internic.net (lists.internic.net [198.41.0.15]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA25123; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:21:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LISTS.INTERNIC.NET by LISTS.INTERNIC.NET (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8620377 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:21:10 -0400 Received: from gadget.lut.ac.uk (multics.lut.ac.uk [158.125.96.88]) by lists.internic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA25101 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=gadget.lut.ac.uk) by gadget.lut.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 132Xc8-0008WN-00 for URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:15:12 +0100 X-URI: Approved-By: Martin Hamilton Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:15:12 +0100 Reply-To: Martin Hamilton From: Martin Hamilton Subject: Re: questions about URNs, URN-Net etc. To: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:52:24 +0800." <3948A758.E2C1F174@rbuzz.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Justin Couch writes: | Strictly speaking that is not correct as the GET needs to tell it "how" | to resolve it. That is, does it resolve N2L, N2Ls, N2R etc etc. This is | of course the THTTP spec for which there is an existing RFC (can't | remember the number off-hand). Hi! That's true if we're talking N2L &c, but bear in mind that we're working at the browser level here. If you type "urn:foo:bar" into Netscape (with a proxy configured for "urn:"), it'll go off and send a "GET urn:foo:bar HTTP/1.0" to the proxy. That's all it knows how to. What the proxy returns is it's own business, but HTML would probably not be a bad idea... :-) Cheers, Martin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.4 and Gnu Privacy Guard iD8DBQE5SLq5Vw+hz3xBJfQRApCPAKC1qYmvmdg7dBiNaLAyIMdJyc6/fQCgndlc Vbq84s47KGTxAILpxfe7idE= =Drbw -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----