From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Dec 11 18:45:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2En4-0004Ho-9X for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:45:30 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2En2-00065z-Po for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:45:30 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBBNgfEn064292 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:42:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBBNgfOI064291; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:42:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from shell.peak.org (shellvm.peak.org [69.59.192.89]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBBNgdKe064284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:42:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from shell.peak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shell.peak.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id lBBNgYh4017222 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:42:39 -0800 Received: from localhost (stanley@localhost) by shell.peak.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id lBBNgOh7017219 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:42:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: shell.peak.org: stanley owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:42:24 -0800 (PST) From: stanley@peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroups (was: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad "Charles Lindsey" : >I think we decided to make no normative mention of it, but to say in >USEAGE how it should be used sensibly to indicate that a message was both >posted and mailed, and not for anything else. If we did, we are wrong, since current practice does not define it that way. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 12 12:16:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2VCW-00011c-7d for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:16:52 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2VCU-0002hz-EG for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:16:52 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBCHC6CR043902 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:12:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBCHC53M043900; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:12:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBCHC4Mn043894 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:12:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3#clerew^man^ac^uk) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.267) id 47601663.3dd2.202 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:12:03 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lBCHC2bu029121 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lBCHC1ku029118 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24758 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Newsgroups (was: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:17:03 GMT Lines: 33 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a In stanley@peak.org writes: >"Charles Lindsey" : >>I think we decided to make no normative mention of it, but to say in >>USEAGE how it should be used sensibly to indicate that a message was both >>posted and mailed, and not for anything else. >If we did, we are wrong, since current practice does not define it that >way. There is current practice that way and there is current practice for it to be used in other ways (for emailed-only replies to news articles IIRC). Having both these practices in use at the same time produces total confusion. Jacob Palme raised this about 10 years ago, and was all for introducing an ID to deal with it. We warned him off with the promise that we would fix the matter in this WG, and what I propose to put in USEAGE is the way we agreed to fix it. Whichever way we fix it, it is bound to upset someone, but not fixing it at all will upset everyone. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 12 17:58:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2aXG-0005xN-GB for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:58:38 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2aXG-0005gn-3t for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:58:38 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBCMsmou072812 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:54:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBCMsmoj072811; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:54:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBCMskti072804 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:54:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78CEC2596FE; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:54:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16287-08; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:54:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from htat43p-no.corp.google.com (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524DB2596F0; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:54:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:46:13 -0800 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: stanley@peak.org, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroups (was: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D) Message-ID: <67952D8ED5C54FFD1C818937@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.7 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 --On 11. desember 2007 15:42 -0800 stanley@peak.org wrote: > > > "Charles Lindsey" : > >> I think we decided to make no normative mention of it, but to say in >> USEAGE how it should be used sensibly to indicate that a message was both >> posted and mailed, and not for anything else. > > If we did, we are wrong, since current practice does not define it that > way. I agree that we agreed not to mention it in USEFOR or USEPRO. If there was any agreement on what it should say, I'll have to look through the archives to figure out what we agreed, and I'm not going to do that today. Harald From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 13 15:08:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2uM8-0008TH-DM for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:08:28 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2uM6-0007tR-3z for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:08:28 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBDK4ttE074625 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:04:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBDK4sPq074624; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:04:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from shell.peak.org (shellvm.peak.org [69.59.192.89]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBDK4rGZ074615 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:04:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from shell.peak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shell.peak.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id lBDK4lKX017592 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:04:52 -0800 Received: from localhost (stanley@localhost) by shell.peak.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id lBDK4be7017589 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:04:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: shell.peak.org: stanley owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:04:37 -0800 (PST) From: stanley@peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroups Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 "Charles Lindsey" : >Having both these practices in use at the same time produces total >confusion. Our attempt at defining the "right" meaning will not prevent that, since it is already happening. The only way there is confusion is if anyone thinks that "newsgroups" in email HAS a meaning. If they know it does not, then there is no confusion at all. >Jacob Palme raised this about 10 years ago, and was all for >introducing an ID to deal with it. I was working with him on that. I know all about it. >We warned him off ... > ... and what I propose to put in USEAGE is >the way we agreed to fix it. I don't recall agreeing to define a header directly contrary to existing usage. Nor do I recall any agreement with Jacob that "warned him off" by proposing a fix that is directly contrary to existing usage. What I do recall is the draft we were working on died a natural death because we could not define it to mean something when two competing opposite definitions were already in existance -- and that was a decade ago, IIRC. >Whichever way we fix it, it is bound to upset someone, but not fixing it >at all will upset everyone. Not so. Our attempt at redefining existing usage will not be a fix, it will be a fiasco. The only reasonable "fix" we could apply would be to make it official: "a newsgroups header in email means nothing", since the only problem is when someone thinks it does mean something, and it cannot mean two opposing things. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Dec 17 12:16:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4JaD-0000im-T8 for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:16:49 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4JaC-0008QX-48 for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:16:49 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBHHC8ON000216 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:12:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBHHC8Ov000215; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:12:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBHHC4g4000184 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster^pop3#clerew$man^ac*uk) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.264) id 4766ade2.56b6.d27 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:12:02 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lBHHC2p5027287 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lBHHC2qT027283 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24761 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Newsgroups Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:18:53 GMT Lines: 34 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 In stanley@peak.org writes: >>Whichever way we fix it, it is bound to upset someone, but not fixing it >>at all will upset everyone. >Not so. Our attempt at redefining existing usage will not be a fix, it >will be a fiasco. The only reasonable "fix" we could apply would be to >make it official: "a newsgroups header in email means nothing", since the >only problem is when someone thinks it does mean something, and it cannot >mean two opposing things. If people read that it "means nothing", then they will conclude "so I can safely carry on putting what I have always put (whichever that was)". Which will achieve nothing. Tne point of USEAGE is that it will describe "Best Practice", rather than defining explicit syntax/semantics. The point of defining "Best Practice" is that it thereby deprecates "Worst Practice". There will be no overnight effect, but over time usage will migrate to the "Best" version, because people will be able to use USEAGE to beat the "wrong"doers over the head. It's a bit like "top posting". There is an RFC which deprecates it. It doesn't prevent it, but it enables people to flame top-posters, and the result is that we get relatively little of it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Dec 18 11:14:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4f5H-0001AP-QP for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:14:19 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J4f5F-0002bm-3S for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:14:19 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBIG4u90013423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:04:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBIG4u3w013422; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:04:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBIG4rwg013413 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:04:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J4evx-0002N2-Mt for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:04:41 +0000 Received: from c-134-88-157.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.157]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:04:41 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-157.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:04:41 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Subject: Re: Newsgroups Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:04:13 +0100 Organization: Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: "Frank Ellermann" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-157.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Charles Lindsey wrote: > It's a bit like "top posting". There is an RFC which deprecates > it. Really ? I somehow missed it. I'm aware of the rather old and in some details stupid "netiquette" RFC, and a nice RFC explaining how "flowed quoting" could work for everybody. =20 For Newsgroups, if you have *something* as reference(s) you can provisionally register it. Worked like a charme for Archived-At, (IOW all red tapes are already cut). Admittedly it might help if the "something" is an active draft, but it can be worse, e.g. Errors-To is "provisionally deprecated": http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov-headers.html=20 Frank From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 19 12:16:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J52X6-0004tB-2d for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:16:36 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J52X4-0002Mj-DP for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:16:36 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBJHC7ts032827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBJHC7LU032826; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBJHC3Kd032807 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:12:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster^pop3$clerew$man*ac*uk) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.271) id 476950e1.17fe3.c87 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:12:01 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lBJHC2Nh020436 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lBJHC1Xv020431 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:12:01 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24763 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Newsgroups Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 14:16:56 GMT Lines: 24 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 In "Frank Ellermann" writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> It's a bit like "top posting". There is an RFC which deprecates >> it. >Really ? I somehow missed it. I'm aware of the rather old and >in some details stupid "netiquette" RFC, and a nice RFC explaining >how "flowed quoting" could work for everybody. RFC 1855 section 3.1.1. Old maybe, but not stupid (though we might want to rework it as part of USEAGE). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From hydroxylize@jewelsonweb.com Tue Dec 25 03:38:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J75J0-0003je-8x for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Dec 2007 03:38:30 -0500 Received: from [90.148.176.200] (helo=qtscxb) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J75Iz-0005wy-4v for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Dec 2007 03:38:29 -0500 Message-ID: <000201c846cf$84c90400$0100007f@yymle> From: "Ravi Carr" To: Subject: Microsoft Office 2007 Enterprise for 79, Retails @ 899 (You Save 819) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 11:38:23 +0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 12.0.4210 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f type newyearoem. com in Internet Exp!orer alias maya 7.0 unlimited - 109 conitec gamestudio pro a7 7.05 - 89 corel wordperfect office standard edition 12 - 49 adobe illustrator cs2 - 59 grand theft auto: san andreas - 29 mcafee desktop firewall 8.0.493 - 39 ms windows 2003 enterprise server - 69 adobe contribute cs3 - 39 ulead mediastudio pro v8.0 with extras - 79 adobe acrobat 8.0 professional - 79 intuit quicken premier 2008 - 29 autodesk aliasstudio 2008 - 109 autodesk 3ds max 9.0 - 149 ulead mediastudio pro v8.0 with extras - 79 virtual pc 7.0 for mac - 49 steinberg nuendo 3.1 - 99 From whdiddn@eurosolutions.net Tue Dec 25 15:41:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J7Gar-0007DV-2T for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Dec 2007 15:41:41 -0500 Received: from [78.162.68.64] (helo=dpemzua) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J7Gao-0007bX-Es for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Dec 2007 15:41:40 -0500 Received: from [162.121.171.90] (helo=cwb) by dpemzua with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1J7Hcw-0006Wd-Kd; Tue, 25 Dec 2007 22:44:52 +0200 Message-ID: <47716AFE.4030608@eurosolutions.net> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 22:41:34 +0200 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (Windows/20070809) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: As you embrace another new year Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 It's the new Year http://uhavepostcard.com/ From msstahl@mail.si.com Wed Dec 26 06:18:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J7UH4-0004ra-Pb for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 06:18:10 -0500 Received: from [88.239.76.195] (helo=uxubju) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J7UH3-0000ap-Bl for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 06:18:10 -0500 Received: from ftjzz ([128.111.164.226]) by uxubju (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id lBQBKver012125; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 13:20:57 +0200 Message-ID: <4772386C.2080607@mail.si.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 13:18:04 +0200 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: As you embrace another new year Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Happy 2008 To You! http://uhavepostcard.com/ From sriramb@uvic.ca Thu Dec 27 13:46:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J7xku-0004Vp-Ud for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 13:46:56 -0500 Received: from [88.236.182.84] (helo=ntsolr) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J7xku-0002pi-7h for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 13:46:56 -0500 Received: from [145.98.208.175] (helo=lytnr) by ntsolr with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1J8oË-0004lL-7K; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 20:49:49 +0200 Message-ID: <4773F31D.8000708@uvic.ca> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 20:46:53 +0200 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Happy New Year! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Happy 2008! http://newyearcards2008.com/ From barbosa@fibertel.com.ar Fri Dec 28 04:42:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J8Bjt-0005SP-R0 for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Dec 2007 04:42:49 -0500 Received: from [122.169.162.93] (helo=ABTS-AP-dynamic-093.162.169.122.airtelbroadband.in) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J8Bjs-0000NC-JF for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Dec 2007 04:42:49 -0500 Received: from kthbf ([111.156.218.41]) by ABTS-AP-dynamic-093.162.169.122.airtelbroadband.in (8.13.2/8.13.2) with SMTP id lBS9l6Po077377; Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:17:06 +0530 Message-ID: <4774C514.4070506@fibertel.com.ar> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:12:44 +0530 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (Windows/20070809) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Get all set for a brand New Year 2008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Sparkling and happy all through the New 2008 Year http://newyearwithlove.com/ From erlinewhittington@fticonsulting.com Sun Dec 30 09:18:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J8yzI-0003wT-DS for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:18:00 -0500 Received: from [87.226.232.158] (helo=uvtwuc) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J8yzH-0000yp-Fo for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:18:00 -0500 Received: from oszw ([182.168.171.67]) by uvtwuc with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sun, 30 Dec 2007 17:17:59 +0300 Message-ID: <001501c84aee$c803e730$43aba8b6@oszw> From: To: Subject: Happy New Year To usefor-archive@ietf.org! Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 17:17:59 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Happy New Year To You! http://freshcards2008.com/ Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBJHC7ts032827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBJHC7LU032826; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBJHC3Kd032807 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:12:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster^pop3$clerew$man*ac*uk) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.271) id 476950e1.17fe3.c87 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:12:01 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lBJHC2Nh020436 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lBJHC1Xv020431 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:12:01 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24763 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Newsgroups Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 14:16:56 GMT Lines: 24 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In "Frank Ellermann" writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> It's a bit like "top posting". There is an RFC which deprecates >> it. >Really ? I somehow missed it. I'm aware of the rather old and >in some details stupid "netiquette" RFC, and a nice RFC explaining >how "flowed quoting" could work for everybody. RFC 1855 section 3.1.1. Old maybe, but not stupid (though we might want to rework it as part of USEAGE). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBIG4u90013423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:04:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBIG4u3w013422; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:04:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBIG4rwg013413 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:04:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J4evx-0002N2-Mt for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:04:41 +0000 Received: from c-134-88-157.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.157]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:04:41 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-157.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:04:41 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Subject: Re: Newsgroups Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:04:13 +0100 Organization: Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: "Frank Ellermann" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-157.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Charles Lindsey wrote: > It's a bit like "top posting". There is an RFC which deprecates > it. Really ? I somehow missed it. I'm aware of the rather old and in some details stupid "netiquette" RFC, and a nice RFC explaining how "flowed quoting" could work for everybody. =20 For Newsgroups, if you have *something* as reference(s) you can provisionally register it. Worked like a charme for Archived-At, (IOW all red tapes are already cut). Admittedly it might help if the "something" is an active draft, but it can be worse, e.g. Errors-To is "provisionally deprecated": http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov-headers.html=20 Frank Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBHHC8ON000216 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:12:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBHHC8Ov000215; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:12:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBHHC4g4000184 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster^pop3#clerew$man^ac*uk) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.264) id 4766ade2.56b6.d27 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:12:02 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lBHHC2p5027287 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lBHHC2qT027283 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24761 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Newsgroups Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:18:53 GMT Lines: 34 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In stanley@peak.org writes: >>Whichever way we fix it, it is bound to upset someone, but not fixing it >>at all will upset everyone. >Not so. Our attempt at redefining existing usage will not be a fix, it >will be a fiasco. The only reasonable "fix" we could apply would be to >make it official: "a newsgroups header in email means nothing", since the >only problem is when someone thinks it does mean something, and it cannot >mean two opposing things. If people read that it "means nothing", then they will conclude "so I can safely carry on putting what I have always put (whichever that was)". Which will achieve nothing. Tne point of USEAGE is that it will describe "Best Practice", rather than defining explicit syntax/semantics. The point of defining "Best Practice" is that it thereby deprecates "Worst Practice". There will be no overnight effect, but over time usage will migrate to the "Best" version, because people will be able to use USEAGE to beat the "wrong"doers over the head. It's a bit like "top posting". There is an RFC which deprecates it. It doesn't prevent it, but it enables people to flame top-posters, and the result is that we get relatively little of it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBDK4ttE074625 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:04:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBDK4sPq074624; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:04:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from shell.peak.org (shellvm.peak.org [69.59.192.89]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBDK4rGZ074615 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:04:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from shell.peak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shell.peak.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id lBDK4lKX017592 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:04:52 -0800 Received: from localhost (stanley@localhost) by shell.peak.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id lBDK4be7017589 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:04:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: shell.peak.org: stanley owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:04:37 -0800 (PST) From: stanley@peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroups Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" : >Having both these practices in use at the same time produces total >confusion. Our attempt at defining the "right" meaning will not prevent that, since it is already happening. The only way there is confusion is if anyone thinks that "newsgroups" in email HAS a meaning. If they know it does not, then there is no confusion at all. >Jacob Palme raised this about 10 years ago, and was all for >introducing an ID to deal with it. I was working with him on that. I know all about it. >We warned him off ... > ... and what I propose to put in USEAGE is >the way we agreed to fix it. I don't recall agreeing to define a header directly contrary to existing usage. Nor do I recall any agreement with Jacob that "warned him off" by proposing a fix that is directly contrary to existing usage. What I do recall is the draft we were working on died a natural death because we could not define it to mean something when two competing opposite definitions were already in existance -- and that was a decade ago, IIRC. >Whichever way we fix it, it is bound to upset someone, but not fixing it >at all will upset everyone. Not so. Our attempt at redefining existing usage will not be a fix, it will be a fiasco. The only reasonable "fix" we could apply would be to make it official: "a newsgroups header in email means nothing", since the only problem is when someone thinks it does mean something, and it cannot mean two opposing things. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBCMsmou072812 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:54:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBCMsmoj072811; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:54:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBCMskti072804 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:54:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78CEC2596FE; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:54:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16287-08; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:54:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from htat43p-no.corp.google.com (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524DB2596F0; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:54:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:46:13 -0800 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: stanley@peak.org, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroups (was: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D) Message-ID: <67952D8ED5C54FFD1C818937@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.7 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --On 11. desember 2007 15:42 -0800 stanley@peak.org wrote: > > > "Charles Lindsey" : > >> I think we decided to make no normative mention of it, but to say in >> USEAGE how it should be used sensibly to indicate that a message was both >> posted and mailed, and not for anything else. > > If we did, we are wrong, since current practice does not define it that > way. I agree that we agreed not to mention it in USEFOR or USEPRO. If there was any agreement on what it should say, I'll have to look through the archives to figure out what we agreed, and I'm not going to do that today. Harald Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBCHC6CR043902 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:12:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBCHC53M043900; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:12:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBCHC4Mn043894 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:12:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3#clerew^man^ac^uk) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.267) id 47601663.3dd2.202 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:12:03 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lBCHC2bu029121 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lBCHC1ku029118 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24758 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Newsgroups (was: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:17:03 GMT Lines: 33 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In stanley@peak.org writes: >"Charles Lindsey" : >>I think we decided to make no normative mention of it, but to say in >>USEAGE how it should be used sensibly to indicate that a message was both >>posted and mailed, and not for anything else. >If we did, we are wrong, since current practice does not define it that >way. There is current practice that way and there is current practice for it to be used in other ways (for emailed-only replies to news articles IIRC). Having both these practices in use at the same time produces total confusion. Jacob Palme raised this about 10 years ago, and was all for introducing an ID to deal with it. We warned him off with the promise that we would fix the matter in this WG, and what I propose to put in USEAGE is the way we agreed to fix it. Whichever way we fix it, it is bound to upset someone, but not fixing it at all will upset everyone. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBBNgfEn064292 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:42:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lBBNgfOI064291; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:42:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from shell.peak.org (shellvm.peak.org [69.59.192.89]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lBBNgdKe064284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:42:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from shell.peak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shell.peak.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id lBBNgYh4017222 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:42:39 -0800 Received: from localhost (stanley@localhost) by shell.peak.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id lBBNgOh7017219 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:42:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: shell.peak.org: stanley owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:42:24 -0800 (PST) From: stanley@peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroups (was: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" : >I think we decided to make no normative mention of it, but to say in >USEAGE how it should be used sensibly to indicate that a message was both >posted and mailed, and not for anything else. If we did, we are wrong, since current practice does not define it that way.