From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 1 01:25:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6179A3A6E06 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 01:25:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1lusy9Std82I for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 01:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595473A68FE for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 01:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n518NQSD085968 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Jun 2009 01:23:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n518NQGI085967; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 01:23:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 39.mail-out.ovh.net (39.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.138.60]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n518NEGd085933 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 01:23:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 13351 invoked by uid 503); 1 Jun 2009 08:23:35 -0000 Received: from b9.ovh.net (HELO mail147.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.59) by 39.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 1 Jun 2009 08:23:35 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 1 Jun 2009 08:23:19 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-45-218.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.135.218) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 1 Jun 2009 08:23:17 -0000 Message-ID: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" Subject: Arguments to checkgroups control messages Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:23:07 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ISO-8859-15"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 10373197318282280377 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.135.218 (aaubervilliers-151-1-45-218.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi, chkscope = 1*( 1*WSP ["!"] newsgroup-name ) These lines are equivalent: Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 Control: checkgroups !de.alt de #2009021301 Maybe it should be highlighted in the text (so that it is not the last matching entry that prevails for each newsgroup). By the way, it should also be said that every newsgroup should/must be listed only *once* in a checkgroups. I did not find the information stated clearly. -- Julien ÉLIE « L'atour est fiel aux Huns valides. » From mlmo@abslaundrylogic.com Mon Jun 1 09:19:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D8728C260 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:19:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.307 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.307 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ogv1l8jWQb+B for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable200-116-14-76.epm.net.co (cable200-116-14-76.epm.net.co [200.116.14.76]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 50D2F3A6E73 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:19:12 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Your Buy.com order #112652 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090601161914.50D2F3A6E73@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:19:12 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 1 14:21:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732AA3A6A37 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:21:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zn8hjzdC24vn for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF16B3A6843 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n51LIttW050882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:18:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n51LItmt050881; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:18:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu (smtp4.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n51LIi9G050868 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:18:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 18CE5C9A4 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp4.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4373C961 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7DFCEE7937; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT) To: "Usefor WG" Subject: Re: Missing RFC editor commit In-Reply-To: ("Julien =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9LIE=22's?= message of "Sun\, 31 May 2009 22\:56\:10 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <0000428F2AD640CABF5EFC698B826135@Iulius> <87iqjmqi6m.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:18:43 -0700 Message-ID: <87my8rirf0.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Julien =C9LIE writes: > bar.isp.example was not a correct <path-identity> for that > - source but simply that that identity did not match the > + source but simply that the identity did not match the > expectations of foo-news.) > > Isn't there something better in English to say "that" in that case? > Because we have in the same sentence "that source" and "the identity"; > it would be better to keep the meaning of "that identity". It's a style thing, and I assume the RFC Editor uses a fairly conservative English style that avoids all doubled words even when grammatically correct. "the" is sufficiently specific in English to serve as "that" in a pinch, so I was okay with the change. > @@ -986,8 +1010,7 @@ > If it implements one of the mechanisms described in target=3D"history" />, this means that it MUST reject any > article whose date falls outside the cutoff interval since it > - won't know whether such articles had been accepted previously > - or not. > + won't know whether or not such articles had been accepted pr= eviously. > Is "or not" necessary? Isn't "it won't know whether such articles" enoug= h? > (It happens twice in the text.) It's not strictly necessary, but it doesn't hurt either. It's better than what it was, which had the "or not" at the end of the sentence. > - corresponding unique identifier of the other medium, but if > - not at least as a comment in the message. This helps > - greatly with preventing loops. > + corresponding unique identifier of the other > + medium. However, if it is not preserved in this way, > + then at least it should be preserved > + as a comment in the message. This helps greatly with > + preventing loops. > Missing space before "However". I'm pretty sure that the rendering process smashes my "traditional" double-spacing for sentences anyway, so it ends up not mattering. > @@ -2412,8 +2497,9 @@ > Additional media types are defined for improved > structuring, specification, and automated processing of > - control messages ( and - target=3D"checkgroup" />). > + control messages (Sections + format=3D"counter" /> and + target=3D"checkgroup" format=3D"counter" />). > It makes me notice that there is an inconsistency between "(Section > x.y)" and "(see Section x.y)" or equivalent in the RFC. Most of the > references use "see" but a few, like this one, do not. Shouldn't it > be homogenized? This was one of the ones where I just left it at whatever the RFC Editor did, since they seem to have some sort of policy and style guide for it. --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 1 14:22:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A743A6843 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:22:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OkBhI51-AN1O for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA9963A692E for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n51LKTMl051034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n51LKTx4051033; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n51LKIbN051013 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E8A9170AD6 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA1A170AEF for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BC440E7937; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:17 -0700 (PDT) To: "Usefor WG" Subject: Re: Arguments to checkgroups control messages In-Reply-To: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> ("Julien =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9LIE=22's?= message of "Mon\, 1 Jun 2009 10\:23\:07 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:20:17 -0700 Message-ID: <87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Julien =C9LIE writes: > chkscope =3D 1*( 1*WSP ["!"] newsgroup-name ) > > These lines are equivalent: > > Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 > Control: checkgroups !de.alt de #2009021301 > > Maybe it should be highlighted in the text (so that it is not > the last matching entry that prevails for each newsgroup). > > By the way, it should also be said that every newsgroup should/must > be listed only *once* in a checkgroups. I did not find the > information stated clearly. Hm -- I agree with both of these, but it's likely to go through another round of AD or chair approval since it's beyond what the RFC Editor can just change. I'm not sure if the change is worth it, but I can prepare a diff if people feel like it is. --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From kong.z@adtran.com Mon Jun 1 14:34:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D1273A6991 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:34:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.881 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.881 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_IS_SMALL6=0.556, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_RECV_IP_083028=1.666, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lkj1rnyX6JrN for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aeat.es (bez162.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.28.37.162]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 31DE23A693C for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:34:37 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Newsletter #890630 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 081112-0, 2008-11-12), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Message-Id: <20090601213439.31DE23A693C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:34:37 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 2 10:12:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD51C3A6ED8 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.069 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.069 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.370, BAYES_20=-0.74, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JFE0rJx16FJa for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C43893A6F3B for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n52HAMFr031163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:10:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n52HAMvC031162; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:10:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 42.mail-out.ovh.net (42.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.189.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n52HABaW031131 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:10:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 26072 invoked by uid 503); 2 Jun 2009 17:10:21 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail440.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 42.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 2 Jun 2009 17:10:21 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 2 Jun 2009 17:10:08 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-45-218.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.135.218) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 2 Jun 2009 17:10:06 -0000 Message-ID: <0FEFB6325BA64B7AA58D83451B96522C@Iulius> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" References: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> <87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Arguments to checkgroups control messages Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:10:03 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 6696289697567145401 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.135.218 (aaubervilliers-151-1-45-218.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: First of all, thanks, Russ, for your response on the RFC editor's commit. >> chkscope = 1*( 1*WSP ["!"] newsgroup-name ) >> >> These lines are equivalent: >> >> Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 >> Control: checkgroups !de.alt de #2009021301 >> >> Maybe it should be highlighted in the text (so that it is not >> the last matching entry that prevails for each newsgroup). >> >> By the way, it should also be said that every newsgroup should/must >> be listed only *once* in a checkgroups. I did not find the >> information stated clearly. > > Hm -- I agree with both of these, but it's likely to go through another > round of AD or chair approval since it's beyond what the RFC Editor can > just change. I'm not sure if the change is worth it, but I can prepare > a diff if people feel like it is. I believe it is worthwhile... because of this mere sentence on news.software.nntp : >> Besides, the patch totally breaks "checkgroups !hr.admin hr". > > Which, as I understand it, is incorrect - as exclusion patterns must trail. Amusing it came up only a few hours after my original post to ask for a better highlighting of this fact in USEPRO! I believe it would be useful to future implementors... -- Julien ÉLIE « Il vaut mieux avoir de l'avenir que du passé. » From mckinnell@abbaye-liguge.com Wed Jun 3 05:40:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 458C93A6BC4 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 05:40:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lionANo2q3iY for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 05:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aandmsoundsys.com (unknown [189.70.121.181]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C26763A687D for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 05:40:25 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Invitation: 06 June From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090603124027.C26763A687D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 05:40:25 -0700 (PDT)
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From juwsiflapdcj@aecos.org Wed Jun 3 06:53:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5684B28C112 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 06:53:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.99 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.99 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LJwF9MavNqMo for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 06:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 93-39-56-142.ip74.fastwebnet.it (93-39-56-142.ip74.fastwebnet.it [93.39.56.142]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DE5A28C10D for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 06:53:04 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: BestBuy.com Deal of the Day From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090603135305.3DE5A28C10D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 06:53:04 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 4 22:42:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFBC33A6B7E for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:42:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.122 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.122 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.176, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RWiJIARCK2Vd for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A88D3A68FF for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n555dtsK099184 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:39:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n555dtFM099182; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:39:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 42.mail-out.ovh.net (42.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.189.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n555dm7l099168 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:39:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 29506 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2009 05:40:00 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail421.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 42.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 05:40:00 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 05:39:46 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.142.184) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 05:39:45 -0000 Message-ID: <760366CC8D864B7AB7BBC365A2AD8BEA@Iulius> From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" Subject: Case-sensitivity in newsgroup names and message-IDs Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:39:39 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ISO-8859-15"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 12655396428278463929 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.142.184 (aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi, Following a discussion between Mateusz Viste, Russ Allbery, Urs Janßen and me on news.software.nntp (see ), it appears there is a problem with case-sensitivity of a newsgroup name and a message-ID. The following paragraph from RFC 3977 applies: 3.1. Commands and Responses Keywords are case insensitive; the case of keywords for commands MUST be ignored by the server. Command and response arguments are case or language specific only when stated, either in this document or in other relevant specifications. In practice, news servers implement: GROUP news.software.nntp 211 3219 149 6892 news.software.nntp GROUP news.software.NNTP 411 No such group news.software.NNTP that is to say that news.software.nntp and news.software.NNTP are *not* the same newsgroup. The same behaviour occurs if I use: Newsgroups: news.software.NNTP in the headers of an article. The post is rejected. Message-IDs are also parsed case-sensitively but that fact is not said in RFC 3977. Besides, I read in RFC 5536 (USEFOR): Some software will try to match the of a in a case-insensitive fashion; some will match it in a case-sensitive fashion. Implementations MUST NOT generate a Message-ID where the only difference from another Message-ID is the case of characters in the part. NOTE: All-digit s conflict with one widely used storage scheme for articles. Mixed-case groups cause confusion between systems with case-sensitive matching and systems with case- insensitive matching of s. It does not say pretty well what is the expected behaviour! For message-IDs, only s are dealt with. What for ?!? (In RFC 5322? but I did not find it clearly.) And nothing explicitly states that newsgroups are case-sensitive... In Son of 1036, it was said: | 2.5. Case-Sensitivity | | Text in newsgroup names, header parameters, etc. is case- | sensitive unless stated otherwise. | | NOTE: This is at variance with MAIL, which is | case-insensitive unless stated otherwise, but is | consistent with news historical practice and | existing news software. See the comments on back- | ward compatibility in section 1. | As with From addresses, a message ID's local part is case- | sensitive and its domain is case-insensitive. The "<" and | ">" are parts of the message ID, not peculiarities of the | Message-ID header. | NOTE: Possibly newsgroup names should have been | case-insensitive, but all existing software treats | them as case-sensitive. (RFC 977 [rrr] claims | that they are case-insensitive in NNTP, but exist- | ing implementations are believed to ignore this.) | The simplest solution is just to ban use of upper- | case letters, since no widespread newsgroup name | uses them anyway; this avoids any possibility of | confusion. Such comments are no longer present in USEFOR. Shouldn't something be done on that subject? -- Julien ÉLIE « Les idées fausses ne sont pas toujours mauvaises. » (Marcel Aymé) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 4 22:42:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3193A6B94 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:42:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.633, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ziLSu761z1QK for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D25353A6B7E for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n555dtJo099183 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:39:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n555dtcc099181; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:39:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 42.mail-out.ovh.net (42.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.189.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n555dh8d099167 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:39:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 29310 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2009 05:39:54 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail421.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 42.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 05:39:54 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 05:39:40 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.142.184) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 05:39:38 -0000 Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" References: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> <87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <0FEFB6325BA64B7AA58D83451B96522C@Iulius> In-Reply-To: <0FEFB6325BA64B7AA58D83451B96522C@Iulius> Subject: Re: Arguments to checkgroups control messages Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:39:32 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 12653426103430348217 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.142.184 (aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi all, >>> These lines are equivalent: >>> >>> Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 >>> Control: checkgroups !de.alt de #2009021301 >>> >>> Maybe it should be highlighted in the text (so that it is not >>> the last matching entry that prevails for each newsgroup). The problems comes from that, in RFC 3977 (NNTP), when something is matched, it is always because of the last entry: 4.2. Wildmat Semantics A wildmat is tested against a string and either matches or does not match. To do this, each constituent is matched against the string, and the rightmost pattern that matches is identified. If that is not preceded with "!", the whole wildmat matches. If it is preceded by "!", or if no matches, the whole wildmat does not match. For example, consider the wildmat "a*,!*b,*c*": o The string "aaa" matches because the rightmost match is with "a*". o The string "abb" does not match because the rightmost match is with "*b". In RFC 5537 (USEPRO), the order does not matter and the semantics of "de !de.alt" works differently. That's why this way of parsing should be better highlighted in USEPRO. -- Julien ÉLIE « Inter pradendum sit saepe parumque bibendum. » From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 5 11:24:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAFFF3A69C8 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:24:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.506, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iHl+W2N67H7r for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5FF3A6A67 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n55ILpCP046739 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:21:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n55ILpMk046738; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:21:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 27.mail-out.ovh.net (27.mail-out.ovh.net [91.121.30.210]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n55ILd4u046715 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:21:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 24519 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2009 19:24:14 -0000 Received: from gw2.ovh.net (HELO mail426.ha.ovh.net) (213.251.189.202) by 27.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 19:24:14 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 18:21:36 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.142.184) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 18:21:34 -0000 Message-ID: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius> From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" Subject: multipart/mixed with checkgroups Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 20:21:26 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ISO-8859-15"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 7074592065728019897 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.142.184 (aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi, If multipart/mixed is used with checkgroups, it breaks all existing implementations because the body of the message should currently consist only of newsgroups. However, multipart/mixed can be used with newgroup messages. And application/news-groupinfo can lack the "For your newsgroups file:" line. Wouldn't it be useful to declare that multipart/mixed SHOULD NOT be used with checkgroups but that an implementation SHOULD process checkgroups control articles as MIME messages and search for an application/news-checkgroups entity? It would then allow to eventually have the possibility to send multipart checkgroups and therefore provide a description of the hierarchy within a text/plain entity in the checkgroups message. (That possibility could be added in xx years when a successor to USEFOR is written...) -- Julien ÉLIE « Travailler dur n'a jamais tué personne, mais pourquoi prendre le risque ? » (Edgar Bergen) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 5 11:32:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230063A6B58 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lLdQtOkeUPpI for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF513A69C8 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n55IV89N047168 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:31:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n55IV8bm047167; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:31:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu (smtp4.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n55IUwLl047153 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:31:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id C9561C5CF for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp4.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63A4C5C0 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 805FDE7A19; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:30:56 -0700 (PDT) To: "Usefor WG" Subject: Re: multipart/mixed with checkgroups In-Reply-To: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius> ("Julien =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9LIE=22's?= message of "Fri\, 5 Jun 2009 20\:21\:26 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:30:56 -0700 Message-ID: <87d49i4jof.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Julien =C9LIE writes: > Wouldn't it be useful to declare that multipart/mixed SHOULD NOT be > used with checkgroups but that an implementation SHOULD process > checkgroups control articles as MIME messages and search for > an application/news-checkgroups entity? Eh. I'm not sure that human-readable bits in control messages is really that important to support... but I guess it would be occasionally useful. --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From kenneth@abbottexcellence.com Fri Jun 5 23:23:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 869EC3A6BDE for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 23:23:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -35.366 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-35.366 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_60=1, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4UGklvcuncRP for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 23:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adbic.com (unknown [189.32.144.152]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A9EA83A67F2 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 23:23:17 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Pre-register info #842879 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090606062317.A9EA83A67F2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 23:23:17 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Sun Jun 7 21:15:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEDB83A691E for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:15:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q2pBM+qLQZSM for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74FB33A6A2B for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n584CbYv075803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n584CbeH075802; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n584CQiF075789 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id A8C7F1703EA for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5803B170471 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E6BC4E7A19; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:25 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: rra@stanford.edu Subject: Commit in docs/usefor (usepro.xml) User-Agent: svnlog/1.15 Message-Id: <20090608041225.E6BC4E7A19@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009 @ 21:12:25 Author: eagle Revision: 5949 Further updates to the message/news and application/news-transmission IANA registration templates to match what IANA currently has in their registration database and, for message/news, the original registration from Henry Spencer. Change the security considerations for application/news-transmission to use the superior wording from Henry Spencer's message/news registration. Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml =================================================================== --- docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-06-08 01:48:50 UTC (rev 5948) +++ docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-06-08 04:12:25 UTC (rev 5949) @@ -1498,12 +1498,14 @@ registered with IANA as provided for in . - The media type message/news, as previously registered with - IANA, is hereby declared obsolete. It was never widely - implemented, and its default treatment as application/octet-stream - by agents that did not recognize it was counter-productive. The - media type message/rfc822 (defined in Section 5.2.1 of - ) SHOULD be used in its place. + The media type message/news, as previously registered with IANA, + is hereby declared obsolete. The intent of this media type was to + define a standard way of transmitting news articles via mail for + human reading. However, it was never widely implemented, and its + default treatment as application/octet-stream by agents that did not + recognize it was counter-productive. The media type message/rfc822 + (defined in Section 5.2.1 of ) SHOULD be + used in its place.
The updated MIME media type definition of message/news @@ -1516,18 +1518,30 @@ Required parameters: none - Optional parameters: charset, compare message/rfc822 + Optional parameters: none - Encoding considerations: compare message/rfc822 (RFC 2046) + Encoding considerations: same as message/rfc822 - Security considerations: OBSOLETE, use message/rfc822. + Security considerations: News articles may constitute "control + messages", which can have effects on a + host's news system beyond just addition + of information. Since control messages + may occur in normal news flow, most hosts + are suitably defended against undesired + effects already, but transmission of news + articles via mail may bypass + firewall-type defenses. Reading a news + article transmitted by mail involves no + hazards beyond those of mail, but + submitting it to news software for + processing should be done with care. Interoperability considerations: Rarely used, and therefore often handled as application/octet-stream. Disposition should by default be inline. - Published specification: RFC 1036, RFC 5537 + Published specification: RFC 5537 Applications that use this media type: Some old mail and news user agents. @@ -1571,12 +1585,17 @@ supplied to ensure correct transmission over some 7bit transport medium. - Security considerations: A news article may be a control message - that, if processed, could have effects on - the recipient host's system beyond just - storage of the article. + Security considerations: News articles may constitute "control + messages", which can have effects on a + host's news system beyond just addition + of information. Since control messages + may occur in normal news flow, most hosts + are suitably defended against undesired + effects already, but transmission of news + articles via mail may bypass + firewall-type defenses. - Published specification: RFC 1036, RFC 5537 + Published specification: RFC 5537 Body part: A complete proto-article ready for injection into Netnews or an article From kevin@akecomputers.com Mon Jun 8 06:54:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2233A6977 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:54:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -24.772 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-24.772 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gWh3d2J4Rquw for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aipstatechair.org (unknown [189.4.23.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B7F1A3A69BF for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:53:57 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Your Buy.com order #224283 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090608135357.B7F1A3A69BF@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:53:57 -0700 (PDT)
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Ottho Heldringstraat 0, 53596 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 8 06:56:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB5D3A6C5F for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:56:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17hkJG6M59HF for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD423A6C21 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58Ds03Y002278 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:54:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58Ds0nd002277; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:54:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58DrmFa002268 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:53:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC45B39E26D; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:53:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gJ8t85q66vUm; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:53:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hta-warp.trd.corp.google.com (unknown [195.18.164.170]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EB6339E1A9; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:53:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A2D17E6.8090503@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:53:42 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090318) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= CC: Usefor WG Subject: Re: Arguments to checkgroups control messages References: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> <87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <0FEFB6325BA64B7AA58D83451B96522C@Iulius> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Julien =C9LIE wrote: > > Hi all, > >>>> These lines are equivalent: >>>> >>>> Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 >>>> Control: checkgroups !de.alt de #2009021301 >>>> >>>> Maybe it should be highlighted in the text (so that it is not >>>> the last matching entry that prevails for each newsgroup). > > The problems comes from that, in RFC 3977 (NNTP), when something > is matched, it is always because of the last entry: > > 4.2. Wildmat Semantics > > A wildmat is tested against a string and either matches or does not > match. To do this, each constituent is matched > against the string, and the rightmost pattern that matches is > identified. If that is not preceded with "!", the > whole wildmat matches. If it is preceded by "!", or if no pattern> matches, the whole wildmat does not match. > > For example, consider the wildmat "a*,!*b,*c*": > > o The string "aaa" matches because the rightmost match is with "a*".= > > o The string "abb" does not match because the rightmost match is > with "*b". > > > In RFC 5537 (USEPRO), the order does not matter and the semantics > of "de !de.alt" works differently. > That's why this way of parsing should be better highlighted in USEPRO. > It seems to me that since we're incompatible with something people will=20 also know about (wildmat), flagging the incompatibility is important. We can't go on making changes in AUTH48 (it's never going to be=20 perfect), but if there's another reason for a delay and a diff, adding a = sentence pointing out the semantic difference would be good. Harald From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 8 07:00:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41D23A6B9B for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:00:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H6AFpz+uPIn4 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A432D3A6B83 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58Dspqs002309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:54:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58DspLS002308; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:54:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58Dsoj3002302 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:54:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0AC639E26D; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:54:49 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IkSCLkCrc46G; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:54:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hta-warp.trd.corp.google.com (unknown [195.18.164.170]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65F4539E1A9; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:54:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A2D1825.4000304@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:54:45 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090318) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russ Allbery CC: Usefor WG Subject: Re: multipart/mixed with checkgroups References: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius> <87d49i4jof.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87d49i4jof.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Russ Allbery wrote: > Julien =C9LIE writes: > > =20 >> Wouldn't it be useful to declare that multipart/mixed SHOULD NOT be >> used with checkgroups but that an implementation SHOULD process >> checkgroups control articles as MIME messages and search for >> an application/news-checkgroups entity? >> =20 > > Eh. I'm not sure that human-readable bits in control messages is reall= y > that important to support... but I guess it would be occasionally > useful. > > =20 Is existing deployed software compatible with such a SHOULD? If not, I'd say "not worth a change at this time". Harald From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 8 09:14:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725CD3A6A14 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:14:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.484, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, FRT_OFFER2=2.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C50oKe7t+RUV for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 444FA3A67AA for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58GCFE1009018 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:12:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58GCFEI009017; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:12:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-3.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-3.gradwell.net [79.135.125.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58GC3ar008994 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:12:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3*clerew^man*ac^uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-3.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4a2d3852.a98.0 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:12:02 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n58GC2XB003708 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:12:02 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n58GC1g8003698 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:12:01 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:25098 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Case-sensitivity in newsgroup names and message-IDs Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <760366CC8D864B7AB7BBC365A2AD8BEA@Iulius> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:24:14 GMT Lines: 39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <760366CC8D864B7AB7BBC365A2AD8BEA@Iulius> =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= writes: >Besides, I read in RFC 5536 (USEFOR): > NOTE: All-digit s conflict with one widely used storage > scheme for articles. Mixed-case groups cause confusion between > systems with case-sensitive matching and systems with case- > insensitive matching of s. >It does not say pretty well what is the expected behaviour! For >message-IDs, only s are dealt with. What for ?!? >(In RFC 5322? but I did not find it clearly.) >And nothing explicitly states that newsgroups are case-sensitive... That is because various systems treat them in various ways :-( . USEFOR makes it clear that all newsgroups names SHOULD be in LC, but recognizes that some existing ones might have UC in them, in which case offering to NNTP (or to whatever else) exactly what the 'official' name of the group is (as it appears in a checkgroups, if you are lucky enough to be in a hierarchy that publishes those) is likely to succeed (mostly). But USEFOR makes it clear that all _new_ groups MUST be LC throughout. So the only thing you are entitled to "expect" is that if you offfer LC names in order to retrieve LC groups, then that will _always_ work. Anything else is problematical, so don't do it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 8 10:45:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44EC3A6A14 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:45:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n+N-tbC2i5RB for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC513A68BF for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58Hh421013101 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:43:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58Hh4W9013100; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:43:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58Hgrpp013088 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:43:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id D33841704FD for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1CDF170181 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6C2AAE7A19; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:42:52 -0700 (PDT) To: Usefor WG Subject: Re: multipart/mixed with checkgroups In-Reply-To: <4A2D1825.4000304@alvestrand.no> (Harald Alvestrand's message of "Mon\, 08 Jun 2009 15\:54\:45 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius> <87d49i4jof.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4A2D1825.4000304@alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:42:52 -0700 Message-ID: <878wk262qr.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Harald Alvestrand writes: > Russ Allbery wrote: >> Julien =C9LIE writes: >>> Wouldn't it be useful to declare that multipart/mixed SHOULD NOT be >>> used with checkgroups but that an implementation SHOULD process >>> checkgroups control articles as MIME messages and search for an >>> application/news-checkgroups entity? >> Eh. I'm not sure that human-readable bits in control messages is >> really that important to support... but I guess it would be >> occasionally useful. > Is existing deployed software compatible with such a SHOULD? If not, > I'd say "not worth a change at this time". No, basically all existing software will process the whole body as a checkgroups. I think Julien may have improved how INN now handles this, but if so, that's probably the only server that might look at the MIME type. --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 8 11:12:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDBC3A6D5C for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:12:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.877 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.877 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.421, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LkzDuvlx7R5K for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC683A67F8 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58IA7VZ014394 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:10:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58IA7PC014393; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:10:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 42.mail-out.ovh.net (42.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.189.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n58I9tdt014367 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:10:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 14238 invoked by uid 503); 8 Jun 2009 18:10:07 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail240.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 42.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2009 18:10:07 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2009 18:09:49 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.142.184) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2009 18:09:46 -0000 Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" References: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius><87d49i4jof.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu><4A2D1825.4000304@alvestrand.no> <878wk262qr.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <878wk262qr.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: multipart/mixed with checkgroups Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:09:38 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 6046645450358128057 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.142.184 (aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Russ, >> Is existing deployed software compatible with such a SHOULD? If not, >> I'd say "not worth a change at this time". > > No, basically all existing software will process the whole body as a > checkgroups. I think Julien may have improved how INN now handles this, > but if so, that's probably the only server that might look at the MIME > type. INN 2.5.0 seeks the last application/news-groupinfo entity, if any, in a newgroup control article. However, as for checkgroups, I do not see the point in seeking application/news-checkgroups. Indeed, multipart is not said to be possible and we want to honour the checkgroups body, be it application/news-checkgroups or not. That's why I asked if it could be added in USEPRO that multipart/mixed could be sent the same way application/news-groupinfo is used for newgroup control articles. Otherwise, there is not much to do with that new MIME type... This addition would prepare for a future version of the specification because new implementations will try to look for an application/news-checkgroups entity. -- Julien ÉLIE « Je suis adroit de la main gauche et je suis gauche de la main droite. » (Raymond Devos) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 8 11:24:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5703A68D2 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:24:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z-SBMBAe-J7I for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6250D3A67F8 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58IM2lc015048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:22:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58IM2Zv015047; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:22:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu (smtp4.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58ILpTO015019 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:22:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id F2FC0CA02 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp4.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D7CC9A4 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 733C6E78DC; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:21:50 -0700 (PDT) To: Usefor WG Subject: Re: Arguments to checkgroups control messages In-Reply-To: <4A2D17E6.8090503@alvestrand.no> (Harald Alvestrand's message of "Mon\, 08 Jun 2009 15\:53\:42 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> <87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <0FEFB6325BA64B7AA58D83451B96522C@Iulius> <4A2D17E6.8090503@alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:21:50 -0700 Message-ID: <87hbyq4mdd.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Harald Alvestrand writes: > It seems to me that since we're incompatible with something people > will also know about (wildmat), flagging the incompatibility is > important. > > We can't go on making changes in AUTH48 (it's never going to be > perfect), but if there's another reason for a delay and a diff, adding > a sentence pointing out the semantic difference would be good. I was thinking that we could just say that all the exclusions should go after the scope, but I forgot that we explicitly intended to permit multiple scopes for the same checkgroups. Here's a diff of the proposed change. USEPRO is still blocked on USEFOR, so we're not holding anything up at the moment, although I agree that we really need to stop making changes at some point soon. I've not yet sent it to the RFC Editor pending discussion here. This patch doesn't point out a difference with wildmat specifically; instead, it specifies the algorithm that one should use. That avoids introducing a concept that isn't already present in USEPRO and I think is even more precise than a caution. Index: usepro.xml =================================================================== --- usepro.xml (revision 5949) +++ usepro.xml (working copy) @@ -2022,14 +2022,24 @@ the valid groups in all hierarchies or sub-hierarchies with a prefix listed in the <chkscope> argument, excluding any sub-hierarchy where the <chkscope> argument is prefixed by - "!". If no <chkscope> argument is given, it applies to all + "!". For complex cases with multiple <chkscope> arguments, + start from an empty list of groups, include all groups in the + checkgroups control message matching <chkscope> arguments + without a "!" prefix, and then exclude all groups matching + <chkscope> arguments with a "!" prefix. Follow this method + regardless of the order of the <chkscope> arguments in the + Control header field. + + If no <chkscope> argument is given, it applies to all hierarchies for which group statements appear in the body of the - message. Since much existing software does not honor the - <chkscope> argument, the body of the checkgroups control - message MUST NOT contain group statements for newsgroups outside - the intended scope and SHOULD contain a correct newsgroup list - even for sub-hierarchies excluded with "!" <chkscope> terms. - News servers, however, MUST honor <chkscope> as specified + message. + + Since much existing software does not honor the <chkscope> + argument, the body of the checkgroups control message MUST NOT + contain group statements for newsgroups outside the intended + scope and SHOULD contain a correct newsgroup list even for + sub-hierarchies excluded with "!" <chkscope> terms. News + servers, however, MUST honor <chkscope> as specified here. The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. If -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 8 11:34:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 637213A6CCB for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:34:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.272, BAYES_00=-2.599, FRT_OFFER2=2.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0DcfjNe-2iWq for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF0AC3A6E0A for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58IPUbc015195 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58IPUYF015194; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.stanford.edu (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.81]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58IPJWk015181 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp1.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CF17178B0F for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp1.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576D8178944 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 28C18E78DC; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:19 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Case-sensitivity in newsgroup names and message-IDs In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon\, 8 Jun 2009 11\:24\:14 GMT") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <760366CC8D864B7AB7BBC365A2AD8BEA@Iulius> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:25:19 -0700 Message-ID: <87d49e4m7k.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" writes: > USEFOR makes it clear that all newsgroups names SHOULD be in LC, but > recognizes that some existing ones might have UC in them, in which > case offering to NNTP (or to whatever else) exactly what the > 'official' name of the group is (as it appears in a checkgroups, if > you are lucky enough to be in a hierarchy that publishes those) is > likely to succeed (mostly). But USEFOR makes it clear that all _new_ > groups MUST be LC throughout. > > So the only thing you are entitled to "expect" is that if you offfer > LC names in order to retrieve LC groups, then that will _always_ work. > Anything else is problematical, so don't do it. The problem is, we don't actually say this anywhere that I can see, and historically several NNTP documents have claimed that newsgroup names are case-insensitive. The current NNTP standard says: Keywords are case insensitive; the case of keywords for commands MUST be ignored by the server. Command and response arguments are case or language specific only when stated, either in this document or in other relevant specifications. which means in the absence of some specific statement to the contrary, newsgroup names are case-insensitive. However, in practice, I thought they were always case-sensitive. However, I've not done a survey of what news software does outside of INN. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 8 12:05:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DF03A6E0A for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:05:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.417 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.417 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.182, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xTyUAq8ZKWrd for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3C43A6E0D for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58J3PMu017103 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:03:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58J3PXU017102; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:03:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.stanford.edu (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.83]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58J3E7P017091 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:03:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp3.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 839FE1A0BF0 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp3.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF5E1A0BEF for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0D83DE78DC; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:03:14 -0700 (PDT) To: "Usefor WG" Subject: Re: multipart/mixed with checkgroups In-Reply-To: ("Julien =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9LIE=22's?= message of "Mon\, 8 Jun 2009 20\:09\:38 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius> <87d49i4jof.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4A2D1825.4000304@alvestrand.no> <878wk262qr.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:03:14 -0700 Message-ID: <87my8i35vx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Julien =C9LIE writes: > However, as for checkgroups, I do not see the point in seeking > application/news-checkgroups. Indeed, multipart is not said to be > possible and we want to honour the checkgroups body, be it > application/news-checkgroups or not. That's why I asked if it could > be added in USEPRO that multipart/mixed could be sent the same way > application/news-groupinfo is used for newgroup control articles. > Otherwise, there is not much to do with that new MIME type... This > addition would prepare for a future version of the specification > because new implementations will try to look for an > application/news-checkgroups entity. The point of specifying a MIME type from my perspective was that it let us create special rules about the body syntax, which one is not really supposed to do without a corresponding MIME type for the data. I agree that news server software, for backward compatibility, probably need to treat checkgroups the same regardless of the MIME type of the body. (Although if the MIME type is application/news-checkgroups, you can be somewhat more confident that the generator isn't doing weird things that aren't supported by the official syntax.) --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 8 12:10:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CF2D28C157 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:10:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.937 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.937 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.361, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UdT9UPR1Zk+D for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC7B28C0EA for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58J8ZQj017367 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:08:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58J8Zp3017366; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:08:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 42.mail-out.ovh.net (42.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.189.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n58J8XPh017360 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:08:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 15024 invoked by uid 503); 8 Jun 2009 19:08:46 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail240.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 42.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2009 19:08:46 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2009 19:08:27 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.142.184) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2009 19:08:24 -0000 Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" References: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius><87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu><0FEFB6325BA64B7AA58D83451B96522C@Iulius><4A2D17E6.8090503@alvestrand.no> <87hbyq4mdd.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87hbyq4mdd.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Arguments to checkgroups control messages Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:08:29 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 7036874417854217657 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.142.184 (aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Russ, > + For complex cases with multiple <chkscope> arguments, > + start from an empty list of groups, include all groups in the > + checkgroups control message matching <chkscope> arguments > + without a "!" prefix, and then exclude all groups matching > + <chkscope> arguments with a "!" prefix. Follow this method > + regardless of the order of the <chkscope> arguments in the > + Control header field. That's pretty clear. This algorithm is fine and easy to follow. Thanks! -- Julien ÉLIE « O fortunatos nimium, sua si bona norint, agricolas. » (Virgile) From lozano@amanpulo.com Tue Jun 9 00:44:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2193A69ED for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:44:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.585 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.585 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9uJqx8R0U6xr for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aguas-cavado.pt (unknown [59.183.28.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DBF5B3A68EC for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:44:30 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Pre-register info #458463 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090609074432.DBF5B3A68EC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 9 03:53:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B163A6961 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:53:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.735 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.735 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.865, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iILIZQxgoZPI for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A7D73A685A for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n59ApDAo059033 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:51:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n59ApD4n059032; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:51:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net [79.135.125.43]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n59Ap10V059018 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:51:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chl@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3#clerew$man#ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4a2e3acc.107f.e7; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:34:52 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n59AYpw6003684; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:34:52 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:34:51 +0100 To: moderators@lists.isc.org Subject: You can't win! From: "Charles Lindsey" Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: USEPRO (now in AUTH48 before release as an RFC) allows email submission to moderators either with the Newsgroups header amongst the email headers, or with the news article encapsulated entirely within the body of the email (a method which has been used by CNEWS and accepted by many/most moderators for many years). USEPRO has added a Content-Type: application/news-transmission to the email header for the 2nd (encapsulation) method, the idea being that existing moderation software would be MIME-ignorant, ignore that header, and treat it just like it always treated CNEWS encapsulated submissions. Although USEPRO recommends using the first method (since it is better supported by current moderation software), it REQUIRES that moderators accept both. Nevertheless, I have left my CNEWS working the old way, just to monitor how well moderators are tolerating the encapsulated form, and to prod them if needs be. Now I have found two newsgroups where this is not quite working. 1. Newsgroup #1 has correctly implemented recognition of application/news-transmission, but regards absence of that, together with lack of a Newsgroups header in the email headers, as an indication of spam, and sends it to the bit bucket (so discarding CNEWS submissions in the old style). So I upgraded my CNEWS to insert that Content-Type header (so it is now USEPRO compliant), but that created another problem: 2. Newsgroup #2 is unaware of application/news-transmission, but has in the past accepted the original CNEWS format (and still does, AFAIK). However, it is not MIME-ignorant, as we had assumed existing software would be. It first interprets the unrecognized application/news-transmission as application/octet-stream, and then treats application/octet-stream as an indication of a binary, and that newsgroup does not accept binaries. Fortunately, it returns the article to the sender rather than to the bit bucket, so I immediately became aware of the problem. BTW, the moderator of Newsgroup #2 is one tskirvin. So, as the subject says, You Can't Win :-( I think the only way forward is for modertors to be encouraged to start recognizing application/news-transmission. But perhaps some warning in USEPRO might be in order too (which is possible, given we are still in AUTH 48). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131     Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 9 09:14:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E6D3A68DD for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:14:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.530, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, FRT_OFFER2=2.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mk82j2cywvgf for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813433A687A for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n59GCVk8078810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:12:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n59GCVKh078809; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:12:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net [79.135.125.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n59GCJPH078791 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:12:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3&clerew&man$ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4a2e89e2.aaa.155 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:12:18 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n59GCCuv024513 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:12:12 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n59GCBUV024510 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:12:11 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:25107 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Case-sensitivity in newsgroup names and message-IDs Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <760366CC8D864B7AB7BBC365A2AD8BEA@Iulius> <87d49e4m7k.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:28:07 GMT Lines: 34 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87d49e4m7k.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: >"Charles Lindsey" writes: >> USEFOR makes it clear that all newsgroups names SHOULD be in LC, but >> recognizes that some existing ones might have UC in them, in which >> case offering to NNTP (or to whatever else) exactly what the >> 'official' name of the group is (as it appears in a checkgroups, if >> you are lucky enough to be in a hierarchy that publishes those) is >> likely to succeed (mostly). But USEFOR makes it clear that all _new_ >> groups MUST be LC throughout. >> >> So the only thing you are entitled to "expect" is that if you offfer >> LC names in order to retrieve LC groups, then that will _always_ work. >> Anything else is problematical, so don't do it. >The problem is, we don't actually say this anywhere that I can see, and >historically several NNTP documents have claimed that newsgroup names >are case-insensitive. The current NNTP standard says: I think it is what section 3.1.4 of USEFOR is _trying_ to say (at least, that is what my analysis was based on). Maybe a little further word-smithing in USEFOR would help clarifiy things? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 10 10:17:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6658028C0CE for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:17:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id irsk5ZXCGG4l for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00D628C103 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5AHEn5G055779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n5AHEnT4055778; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (mail01.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5AHEaxT055764 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from smtp-out.server.peak.org (smtp-out.server.peak.org [172.20.0.130]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id n5AHEYIi081022 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.peak.org (shell.server.peak.org [172.20.0.89]) by smtp-out.server.peak.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id n5AHEA39027644 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:10 -0700 Received: from shell.peak.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by shell.peak.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n5AHEAsT002252 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:10 -0700 Received: from localhost (stanley@localhost) by shell.peak.org (8.13.8/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id n5AHE9Rf002249 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: shell.peak.org: stanley owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:09 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: You can't win! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-4.399, required 6, ALL_TRUSTED -1.80, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner-From: stanley@peak.org Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" wrote: >Now I have found two newsgroups where this is not quite working. > 1. Newsgroup #1 ... bit-bucket ... > 2. Newsgroup #2 ... returns to sender ... There is a third possibility, which I have seen in action: ignores application/news-transmission header altogether and posts entire encapsulated message as the body of a new article with locally-generated headers. This is, apparently, "stump", and the moderators aren't aware enough to notice the problem. Interestingly enough, the same person is involved in both newsgroups 2 and 3. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 11 09:14:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945843A689D for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:14:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.772 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.772 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.783, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GkvIK51Pxk5u for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C19EA3A681C for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5BGCXHG029335 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:12:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n5BGCXRS029334; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:12:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-6.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-6.gradwell.net [79.135.125.112]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5BGCLng029306 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:12:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3*clerew&man#ac^uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-6.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4a312ce3.2b26.275 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:12:19 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n5BGC1KY029620 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:12:02 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n5BGC1UT029616 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:12:01 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:25110 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: You can't win! Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:26:08 GMT Lines: 38 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In John Stanley writes: >"Charles Lindsey" wrote: >>Now I have found two newsgroups where this is not quite working. >> 1. Newsgroup #1 ... bit-bucket ... >> 2. Newsgroup #2 ... returns to sender ... >There is a third possibility, which I have seen in action: ignores >application/news-transmission header altogether and posts entire >encapsulated message as the body of a new article with locally-generated >headers. That is what would happen if there were also a Newsgroups header in the top-level email (and correctly so). Or are you saying that it finds a Newsgroups header in the encapsulated part, and then uses that to know which group it is aimed at, and then posts it to that group(s) still encapsulated. That would be seriously brokem behaviour. Or are you saying that it knows the intended newsgroup because it was emailed to that group's submission address. In which case might it not happily post and spam emailed to that address? That would be seriously broken too :-( . -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 11 11:58:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE64A3A6A90 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:58:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pRuB5j94Dw5I for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A867F3A6936 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5BIuEnj039827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n5BIuE4s039826; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (mail01.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5BIu2DV039811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from smtp-out.server.peak.org (smtp-out.server.peak.org [172.20.0.130]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id n5BIu1Ii025300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.peak.org (shell.server.peak.org [172.20.0.89]) by smtp-out.server.peak.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id n5BItsD6011354 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:55:55 -0700 Received: from shell.peak.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by shell.peak.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n5BItsKA018863 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:55:54 -0700 Received: from localhost (stanley@localhost) by shell.peak.org (8.13.8/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id n5BItqvw018859 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:55:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: shell.peak.org: stanley owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:55:52 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: You can't win! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-4.399, required 6, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.80, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner-From: stanley@peak.org Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" : >>There is a third possibility, which I have seen in action: ignores >>application/news-transmission header altogether and posts entire >>encapsulated message as the body of a new article with locally-generated >>headers. >That is what would happen if there were also a Newsgroups header in the >top-level email (and correctly so). 1. There was no "newsgroups" header in the "top-level email". 2. "Newsgroups" as a header is undefined in email and as such should be ignored. Rather, it is now multiply defined in practice and cannot be relied upon for anything. The attempt at implicitely defining it in USEPRO 3.5.1 "Forwarding Messages to a Moderator" is stepping outside the scope of USEFOR by defining an email header without actually defining one. RFC2076 covers this dichotomy. 3. The HUMAN reading and approving the email was presented with an encapsulated news message as the "body" of the submission, which differs from unencapsulated submissions in that it contains the headers for the news message, including any "references" headers that MUST be maintained in followups. That should be a red-flag to anyone actually looking at the submission. >Or are you saying that it knows the intended newsgroup because it was >emailed to that group's submission address. In which case might it not >happily post and spam emailed to that address? That would be seriously >broken too :-( . Yes, it knows the intended newsgroup because it was mailed to the moderators submission address. The newsgroups header in email should be ignored because it has no well-defined meaning. This points out exactly why encapsulation should be the only defined means of forwarding messages to a moderator from a news agent. That USEPRO promotes ambiguous behaviour is a bug, not a feature. SPAM is not an issue; if the moderator chooses to approve spam that appears in that mailbox, it is an issue of the moderator's good sense, not adherence to RFC. (The ambiguous nature of "newsgroups" in email comes not because newsgroups is not defined in news, it comes because there are multiple entry methods for email sent to the moderator's submission address. If you could ascertain that a certain email MUST have originated as a submission to a moderated group via a news agent, the ambiguity would dissappear. Since any email in a moderator's mailbox can come from any source, you can't ascribe ONLY a news-specific meaning to Newsgroups in that email. You must ascribe the EMAIL meaning, which is "none".) From mcneil@americanexpress-travel.com Fri Jun 12 08:37:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478453A6CCD for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:37:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.075 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.075 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OCEW3tk8yjDG for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 186-8-37-114-dynamic.movinet.com.uy (186-8-37-114-dynamic.movinet.com.uy [186.8.37.114]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A4193A68F8 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:37:34 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Your iTunes Account #337626 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090612153735.2A4193A68F8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:37:34 -0700 (PDT)
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From messengers@allaboutwed.com Sat Jun 13 02:08:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698BB3A6AEC for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 02:08:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.317 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.317 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FlaXnNQxyETE for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 02:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jk0hdo315s.adsl.datanet.hu (jk0hdo315s.adsl.datanet.hu [91.120.166.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E1823A6AFB for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 02:07:51 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: The confirmatory letter #70505 was sent From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080923-0, 2008.09.23), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Message-Id: <20090613090802.3E1823A6AFB@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 02:07:51 -0700 (PDT)
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From marioangeloburke@aim.com Mon Jun 15 06:45:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B9CD3A6CDD for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:45:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -40.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-40.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yFpKwIvD6TVm for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from f048245191.adsl.alicedsl.de (f048245191.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.48.245.191]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B41103A6CD7 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:45:43 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Invitation: 06 June From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090615134543.B41103A6CD7@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:45:43 -0700 (PDT)
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Ottho Heldringstraat 7, 53335 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 15 09:21:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE02A3A6891 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:21:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.654, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gQnF6uVZD1CG for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F793A682A for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5FGIWO1025546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:18:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n5FGIWoK025545; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:18:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-6.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-6.gradwell.net [79.135.125.112]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5FGIKiP025536 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:18:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3^clerew*man*ac*uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-6.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4a3672d3.2675.30e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:12:03 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n5FGC2sC007631 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:12:02 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n5FGC2a1007628 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:12:02 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:25112 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: You can't win! Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:03:41 GMT Lines: 53 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In John Stanley writes: >>>There is a third possibility, which I have seen in action: ignores >>>application/news-transmission header altogether and posts entire >>>encapsulated message as the body of a new article with locally-generated >>>headers. >3. The HUMAN reading and approving the email was presented with an > encapsulated news message as the "body" of the submission, which > differs from unencapsulated submissions in that it contains the headers > for the news message, including any "references" headers that MUST be > maintained in followups. That should be a red-flag to anyone actually > looking at the submission. Ah! So it was a human, who should have known better, and not some broken script :-( . >Yes, it knows the intended newsgroup because it was mailed to the >moderators submission address. The newsgroups header in email should be >ignored because it has no well-defined meaning. This points out exactly >why encapsulation should be the only defined means of forwarding messages >to a moderator from a news agent. That USEPRO promotes ambiguous behaviour >is a bug, not a feature. Yes, we are all agreed that encapsulation is a _much_better_ way to submit articles to a moderator. But, unfortunately, the ghastly method of just putting a Newgroups (etc) in the email is so widely used currently, and moreover a large number of moderators are totally unaware of the 'proper' way to do it, that this WG decided, some way back, that is was better to retain that ghastly method rather than suddenly to break what was actually working reasonably well. My message, which started this thread, was just to point out that adding a Content-Type: message/news-transmission could actually break some currently-working encapsulation-safe moderators' scripts, contrary to what we had earlier assumed, and contrary to what USEPRO currently implies. AND to ask whether anybody wanted to tweak our current wording during AUTH48, which is our last chance to do so. But I hear no such suggestions so far from this list. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From knoma@aiphone.co.jp Mon Jun 15 13:15:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64E13A67AF for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:15:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.859 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.859 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rYyMY+qjhHMf for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from accuchex.com (unknown [201.250.191.159]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DC67C3A6802 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:14:53 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Your registration #973739 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090615201454.DC67C3A6802@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:14:53 -0700 (PDT)
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Ottho Heldringstraat 7, 08253 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From opopular.com.brapessini@agora.com.br Mon Jun 15 22:45:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E75F28C138 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:45:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.059 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.059 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_AT=0.424, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HOST_EQ_AT=0.745, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WqvWShfMDjuJ for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 85-127-20-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at (85-127-20-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at [85.127.20.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 91D6E3A6C52 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:45:49 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Your registration #455523 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090616054549.91D6E3A6C52@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:45:49 -0700 (PDT)
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Ottho Heldringstraat 3, 84719 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From jhaywood@akpei.com Tue Jun 16 18:46:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CE703A6B8D for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:46:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -34.854 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-34.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nglIPUwJ5ncc for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from advantech-uk.com (unknown [200.196.102.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BE0203A6D80 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:45:53 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Your registration #546358 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090617014555.BE0203A6D80@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:45:53 -0700 (PDT)
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Ottho Heldringstraat 6, 74558 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From johnsmithsvt@andyhope.com Thu Jun 18 22:46:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC323A6A18 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 22:46:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LY0vWVODoZDb for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 22:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-71-112-184-127.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net (pool-71-112-184-127.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.112.184.127]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A30CE3A6A73 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 22:45:57 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: BestBuy.com Deal of the Day From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090619054558.A30CE3A6A73@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 22:45:57 -0700 (PDT)
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Ottho Heldringstraat 5, 21603 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From egirekki_1985@PASTAVILLA.com.tr Thu Jun 18 23:40:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44193A69C0 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:40:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.484 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_28=1.561, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id niN5IS9WqvHp for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 83-131-214-124.adsl.net.t-com.hr (83-131-215-124.adsl.net.t-com.hr [83.131.215.124]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531423A6359 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:40:16 -0700 (PDT) From: To: usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: For: usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20090619064019.531423A6359@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:40:16 -0700 (PDT) vopug
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From kennyi@amanresorts.com Sat Jun 20 01:00:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 420F13A6988 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 01:00:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -23.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-23.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mO2nmuxzappz for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xdsl.041.c76.petrotel.pl (xdsl.041.c76.petrotel.pl [78.154.76.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 72F5E3A6A75 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 00:59:56 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Pre-register info #843577 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090620080000.72F5E3A6A75@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 00:59:56 -0700 (PDT)
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Ottho Heldringstraat 9, 24189 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From kbooking@agcomm.com Sun Jun 21 10:22:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B783A6CFA for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -53.473 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-53.473 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_60=1, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jDQgSlXsUg0D for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i209-195-80-79.cia.com (i209-195-80-79.cia.com [209.195.80.79]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CBAAC3A6CF6 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:22:36 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: BestBuy.com Deal of the Day From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090621172237.CBAAC3A6CF6@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:22:36 -0700 (PDT)
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Ottho Heldringstraat 4, 35549 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From mnorman@alston.com Mon Jun 22 13:51:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72DCC3A6A6A for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:51:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -18.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-18.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y6rohTQkuWab for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from accela.net (unknown [189.106.106.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5DB993A6878 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:51:15 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Your iTunes Account #507170 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090622205116.5DB993A6878@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:51:15 -0700 (PDT)
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Ottho Heldringstraat 6, 47882 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 24 12:39:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27ED3A67B4 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:39:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1W+-oNdk96BF for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818583A680E for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5OJarUB025430 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:36:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n5OJaraC025429; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:36:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 27.mail-out.ovh.net (27.mail-out.ovh.net [91.121.30.210]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n5OJafik025417 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:36:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 23664 invoked by uid 503); 24 Jun 2009 20:51:46 -0000 Received: from b9.ovh.net (HELO mail91.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.59) by 27.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2009 20:51:46 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2009 19:36:35 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-61-130.w83-112.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.112.156.130) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2009 19:36:34 -0000 Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" Subject: USEAGE referenced for Archive Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:36:37 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-15"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 9241949387110022585 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.112.156.130 (aaubervilliers-151-1-61-130.w83-112.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi, 3.2.2. Archive No s are currently defined; if present, they can be ignored. Further discussion of the use of the Archive header field appears in [USEAGE]. I do not see anything in draft-ietf-usefor-useage-01 about archives. Is it still OK to reference it in USEFOR? (for the future?) -- Julien ÉLIE « Un père à son fils : « Finalement, ta mère et moi, on a été heureux pendant 25 ans. Après, on s'est rencontré... » From kuis@afwe.co.nz Thu Jun 25 00:04:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52FD3A6C55 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:04:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -23.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-23.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_SEX_HOSTDDDD=10.357, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_HTML_A_BODY=0.742, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 96bWjTSUCvoS for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adclinic.com (77-97-125-177.cable.ubr16.live.blueyonder.co.uk [77.97.125.177]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 49AF93A6D85 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:04:06 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Download video! From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090625070407.49AF93A6D85@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Christina Aguilera is a complete slut! She loves to get naked and have sex with just about anyone. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 25 04:15:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9587628C150 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:15:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.038 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.038 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.561, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aUnhwUqybuVZ for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63AFA28C165 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5PBCYUd081868 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:12:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n5PBCXdD081867; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:12:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5PBCLqo081839 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:12:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster&pop3#clerew&man$ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4a435b94.13f5.7c for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:12:20 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n5PBC22u016679 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:12:02 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n5PBC24E016676 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:12:02 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:25114 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: USEAGE referenced for Archive Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:48:36 GMT Lines: 54 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In =?iso-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= writes: >Hi, >3.2.2. Archive > No s are currently defined; if present, they can be > ignored. Further discussion of the use of the Archive header field > appears in [USEAGE]. >I do not see anything in draft-ietf-usefor-useage-01 about archives. >Is it still OK to reference it in USEFOR? (for the future?) The following text was planned for useage-02. Maybe I will even get around to useage-02 :-). 9.1.4. Archive There are various sites which attempt to keep a permanent (or at least exceedingly long term) archive of every article posted to Usenet (or to some part of it) and to make them available for public searching and download. Clearly, this has Copyright implications which go beyond the normal presumptions set out in P-7.3. Some posters take great exception to having their words on public display for ever (whereas other posters find it a useful resource of information). [It has also been suggested that P-7.3 should be moved into this document.] Posters who wish to exercise their right to withold permission for such sites to redistribute their words may include the header "Archive: no", and likewise "Archive: yes" explicitly to allow it (F-3.2.2). The effect of omitting this header entirely is not defined, but posters should be aware that the current practice is for such sites to assume that such absence implies consent, and to go ahead and archive it anyway. NOTE: The header "X-No-Archive: yes" (somewhat confusingly named) has hitherto been used for this purpose and archiving sites will doubtless continue to take note of it, but in writing [RFC5536] the opportunity was taken to standardize it without that negative in it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From mariajesuscamachonn@aj.santcugatobert.net Sat Jun 27 17:44:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02A123A6895 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:44:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -19.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-19.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, HELO_DYNAMIC_CHELLO_NL=3.595, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KfiAs77Fbfnu for ; Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d11060.upc-d.chello.nl (d11060.upc-d.chello.nl [213.46.11.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FBE43A6A09 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:44:24 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: BestBuy.com Deal of the Day From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090628004425.0FBE43A6A09@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:44:24 -0700 (PDT)
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  We want to put a great big grin on your face in 2009. You'll be to rejoice all year.  

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Ottho Heldringstraat 8, 06606 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From lanatwdowel@ama-assn.org Mon Jun 29 01:20:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5625028C184 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:20:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -34.854 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-34.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1XKMt5CpOMRy for ; Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agri-fab.com (unknown [190.163.165.234]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BC7FD28C197 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:20:37 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: from usefor-archive@ietf.org From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090629082037.BC7FD28C197@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
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  We want to put a great big grin on your face in 2009. You'll be to rejoice all year.  

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Ottho Heldringstraat 3, 10408 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From langsdon@altodigital.com Tue Jun 30 11:12:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F4E3A6E8D for ; Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:12:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -23.33 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-23.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ToNSLpYLjprt for ; Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aftabtech.com (unknown [95.89.180.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B54B3A6EAF for ; Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:12:12 -0700 (PDT) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Your registration #454566 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090630181214.2B54B3A6EAF@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:12:12 -0700 (PDT)
Tell a friend | Download latest version See this email as a webpage

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Shipped Privately And Discreetly To Your Door!
See this email as a webpage
  We want to put a great big grin on your face in 2009. You'll be to rejoice all year.  

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Ottho Heldringstraat 1, 69090 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5PBCYUd081868 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:12:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n5PBCXdD081867; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:12:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5PBCLqo081839 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:12:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster&pop3#clerew&man$ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4a435b94.13f5.7c for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:12:20 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n5PBC22u016679 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:12:02 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n5PBC24E016676 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:12:02 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:25114 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: USEAGE referenced for Archive Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:48:36 GMT Lines: 54 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In =?iso-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= writes: >Hi, >3.2.2. Archive > No s are currently defined; if present, they can be > ignored. Further discussion of the use of the Archive header field > appears in [USEAGE]. >I do not see anything in draft-ietf-usefor-useage-01 about archives. >Is it still OK to reference it in USEFOR? (for the future?) The following text was planned for useage-02. Maybe I will even get around to useage-02 :-). 9.1.4. Archive There are various sites which attempt to keep a permanent (or at least exceedingly long term) archive of every article posted to Usenet (or to some part of it) and to make them available for public searching and download. Clearly, this has Copyright implications which go beyond the normal presumptions set out in P-7.3. Some posters take great exception to having their words on public display for ever (whereas other posters find it a useful resource of information). [It has also been suggested that P-7.3 should be moved into this document.] Posters who wish to exercise their right to withold permission for such sites to redistribute their words may include the header "Archive: no", and likewise "Archive: yes" explicitly to allow it (F-3.2.2). The effect of omitting this header entirely is not defined, but posters should be aware that the current practice is for such sites to assume that such absence implies consent, and to go ahead and archive it anyway. NOTE: The header "X-No-Archive: yes" (somewhat confusingly named) has hitherto been used for this purpose and archiving sites will doubtless continue to take note of it, but in writing [RFC5536] the opportunity was taken to standardize it without that negative in it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5OJarUB025430 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:36:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n5OJaraC025429; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:36:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 27.mail-out.ovh.net (27.mail-out.ovh.net [91.121.30.210]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n5OJafik025417 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:36:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 23664 invoked by uid 503); 24 Jun 2009 20:51:46 -0000 Received: from b9.ovh.net (HELO mail91.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.59) by 27.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2009 20:51:46 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2009 19:36:35 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-61-130.w83-112.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.112.156.130) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2009 19:36:34 -0000 Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" Subject: USEAGE referenced for Archive Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:36:37 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-15"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 9241949387110022585 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.112.156.130 (aaubervilliers-151-1-61-130.w83-112.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi, 3.2.2. Archive No s are currently defined; if present, they can be ignored. Further discussion of the use of the Archive header field appears in [USEAGE]. I do not see anything in draft-ietf-usefor-useage-01 about archives. Is it still OK to reference it in USEFOR? (for the future?) -- Julien ÉLIE « Un père à son fils : « Finalement, ta mère et moi, on a été heureux pendant 25 ans. Après, on s'est rencontré... » Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5FGIWO1025546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:18:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n5FGIWoK025545; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:18:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-6.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-6.gradwell.net [79.135.125.112]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5FGIKiP025536 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:18:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3^clerew*man*ac*uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-6.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4a3672d3.2675.30e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:12:03 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n5FGC2sC007631 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:12:02 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n5FGC2a1007628 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:12:02 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:25112 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: You can't win! Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:03:41 GMT Lines: 53 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In John Stanley writes: >>>There is a third possibility, which I have seen in action: ignores >>>application/news-transmission header altogether and posts entire >>>encapsulated message as the body of a new article with locally-generated >>>headers. >3. The HUMAN reading and approving the email was presented with an > encapsulated news message as the "body" of the submission, which > differs from unencapsulated submissions in that it contains the headers > for the news message, including any "references" headers that MUST be > maintained in followups. That should be a red-flag to anyone actually > looking at the submission. Ah! So it was a human, who should have known better, and not some broken script :-( . >Yes, it knows the intended newsgroup because it was mailed to the >moderators submission address. The newsgroups header in email should be >ignored because it has no well-defined meaning. This points out exactly >why encapsulation should be the only defined means of forwarding messages >to a moderator from a news agent. That USEPRO promotes ambiguous behaviour >is a bug, not a feature. Yes, we are all agreed that encapsulation is a _much_better_ way to submit articles to a moderator. But, unfortunately, the ghastly method of just putting a Newgroups (etc) in the email is so widely used currently, and moreover a large number of moderators are totally unaware of the 'proper' way to do it, that this WG decided, some way back, that is was better to retain that ghastly method rather than suddenly to break what was actually working reasonably well. My message, which started this thread, was just to point out that adding a Content-Type: message/news-transmission could actually break some currently-working encapsulation-safe moderators' scripts, contrary to what we had earlier assumed, and contrary to what USEPRO currently implies. AND to ask whether anybody wanted to tweak our current wording during AUTH48, which is our last chance to do so. But I hear no such suggestions so far from this list. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5BIuEnj039827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n5BIuE4s039826; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (mail01.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5BIu2DV039811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from smtp-out.server.peak.org (smtp-out.server.peak.org [172.20.0.130]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id n5BIu1Ii025300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.peak.org (shell.server.peak.org [172.20.0.89]) by smtp-out.server.peak.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id n5BItsD6011354 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:55:55 -0700 Received: from shell.peak.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by shell.peak.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n5BItsKA018863 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:55:54 -0700 Received: from localhost (stanley@localhost) by shell.peak.org (8.13.8/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id n5BItqvw018859 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:55:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: shell.peak.org: stanley owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:55:52 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: You can't win! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-4.399, required 6, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.80, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner-From: stanley@peak.org X-Spam-Status: No Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" : >>There is a third possibility, which I have seen in action: ignores >>application/news-transmission header altogether and posts entire >>encapsulated message as the body of a new article with locally-generated >>headers. >That is what would happen if there were also a Newsgroups header in the >top-level email (and correctly so). 1. There was no "newsgroups" header in the "top-level email". 2. "Newsgroups" as a header is undefined in email and as such should be ignored. Rather, it is now multiply defined in practice and cannot be relied upon for anything. The attempt at implicitely defining it in USEPRO 3.5.1 "Forwarding Messages to a Moderator" is stepping outside the scope of USEFOR by defining an email header without actually defining one. RFC2076 covers this dichotomy. 3. The HUMAN reading and approving the email was presented with an encapsulated news message as the "body" of the submission, which differs from unencapsulated submissions in that it contains the headers for the news message, including any "references" headers that MUST be maintained in followups. That should be a red-flag to anyone actually looking at the submission. >Or are you saying that it knows the intended newsgroup because it was >emailed to that group's submission address. In which case might it not >happily post and spam emailed to that address? That would be seriously >broken too :-( . Yes, it knows the intended newsgroup because it was mailed to the moderators submission address. The newsgroups header in email should be ignored because it has no well-defined meaning. This points out exactly why encapsulation should be the only defined means of forwarding messages to a moderator from a news agent. That USEPRO promotes ambiguous behaviour is a bug, not a feature. SPAM is not an issue; if the moderator chooses to approve spam that appears in that mailbox, it is an issue of the moderator's good sense, not adherence to RFC. (The ambiguous nature of "newsgroups" in email comes not because newsgroups is not defined in news, it comes because there are multiple entry methods for email sent to the moderator's submission address. If you could ascertain that a certain email MUST have originated as a submission to a moderated group via a news agent, the ambiguity would dissappear. Since any email in a moderator's mailbox can come from any source, you can't ascribe ONLY a news-specific meaning to Newsgroups in that email. You must ascribe the EMAIL meaning, which is "none".) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5BGCXHG029335 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:12:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n5BGCXRS029334; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:12:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-6.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-6.gradwell.net [79.135.125.112]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5BGCLng029306 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:12:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3*clerew&man#ac^uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-6.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4a312ce3.2b26.275 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:12:19 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n5BGC1KY029620 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:12:02 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n5BGC1UT029616 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:12:01 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:25110 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: You can't win! Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:26:08 GMT Lines: 38 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In John Stanley writes: >"Charles Lindsey" wrote: >>Now I have found two newsgroups where this is not quite working. >> 1. Newsgroup #1 ... bit-bucket ... >> 2. Newsgroup #2 ... returns to sender ... >There is a third possibility, which I have seen in action: ignores >application/news-transmission header altogether and posts entire >encapsulated message as the body of a new article with locally-generated >headers. That is what would happen if there were also a Newsgroups header in the top-level email (and correctly so). Or are you saying that it finds a Newsgroups header in the encapsulated part, and then uses that to know which group it is aimed at, and then posts it to that group(s) still encapsulated. That would be seriously brokem behaviour. Or are you saying that it knows the intended newsgroup because it was emailed to that group's submission address. In which case might it not happily post and spam emailed to that address? That would be seriously broken too :-( . -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5AHEn5G055779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n5AHEnT4055778; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (mail01.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5AHEaxT055764 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from smtp-out.server.peak.org (smtp-out.server.peak.org [172.20.0.130]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id n5AHEYIi081022 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.peak.org (shell.server.peak.org [172.20.0.89]) by smtp-out.server.peak.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id n5AHEA39027644 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:10 -0700 Received: from shell.peak.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by shell.peak.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n5AHEAsT002252 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:10 -0700 Received: from localhost (stanley@localhost) by shell.peak.org (8.13.8/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id n5AHE9Rf002249 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: shell.peak.org: stanley owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:14:09 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: You can't win! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-4.399, required 6, ALL_TRUSTED -1.80, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-smtp-out.server.peak.org-MailScanner-From: stanley@peak.org X-Spam-Status: No Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" wrote: >Now I have found two newsgroups where this is not quite working. > 1. Newsgroup #1 ... bit-bucket ... > 2. Newsgroup #2 ... returns to sender ... There is a third possibility, which I have seen in action: ignores application/news-transmission header altogether and posts entire encapsulated message as the body of a new article with locally-generated headers. This is, apparently, "stump", and the moderators aren't aware enough to notice the problem. Interestingly enough, the same person is involved in both newsgroups 2 and 3. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n59GCVk8078810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:12:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n59GCVKh078809; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:12:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net [79.135.125.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n59GCJPH078791 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:12:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3&clerew&man$ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4a2e89e2.aaa.155 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:12:18 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n59GCCuv024513 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:12:12 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n59GCBUV024510 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:12:11 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:25107 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Case-sensitivity in newsgroup names and message-IDs Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <760366CC8D864B7AB7BBC365A2AD8BEA@Iulius> <87d49e4m7k.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:28:07 GMT Lines: 34 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87d49e4m7k.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: >"Charles Lindsey" writes: >> USEFOR makes it clear that all newsgroups names SHOULD be in LC, but >> recognizes that some existing ones might have UC in them, in which >> case offering to NNTP (or to whatever else) exactly what the >> 'official' name of the group is (as it appears in a checkgroups, if >> you are lucky enough to be in a hierarchy that publishes those) is >> likely to succeed (mostly). But USEFOR makes it clear that all _new_ >> groups MUST be LC throughout. >> >> So the only thing you are entitled to "expect" is that if you offfer >> LC names in order to retrieve LC groups, then that will _always_ work. >> Anything else is problematical, so don't do it. >The problem is, we don't actually say this anywhere that I can see, and >historically several NNTP documents have claimed that newsgroup names >are case-insensitive. The current NNTP standard says: I think it is what section 3.1.4 of USEFOR is _trying_ to say (at least, that is what my analysis was based on). Maybe a little further word-smithing in USEFOR would help clarifiy things? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n59ApDAo059033 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:51:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n59ApD4n059032; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:51:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net [79.135.125.43]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n59Ap10V059018 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:51:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chl@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3#clerew$man#ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4a2e3acc.107f.e7; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:34:52 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n59AYpw6003684; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:34:52 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:34:51 +0100 To: moderators@lists.isc.org Subject: You can't win! From: "Charles Lindsey" Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: USEPRO (now in AUTH48 before release as an RFC) allows email submission to moderators either with the Newsgroups header amongst the email headers, or with the news article encapsulated entirely within the body of the email (a method which has been used by CNEWS and accepted by many/most moderators for many years). USEPRO has added a Content-Type: application/news-transmission to the email header for the 2nd (encapsulation) method, the idea being that existing moderation software would be MIME-ignorant, ignore that header, and treat it just like it always treated CNEWS encapsulated submissions. Although USEPRO recommends using the first method (since it is better supported by current moderation software), it REQUIRES that moderators accept both. Nevertheless, I have left my CNEWS working the old way, just to monitor how well moderators are tolerating the encapsulated form, and to prod them if needs be. Now I have found two newsgroups where this is not quite working. 1. Newsgroup #1 has correctly implemented recognition of application/news-transmission, but regards absence of that, together with lack of a Newsgroups header in the email headers, as an indication of spam, and sends it to the bit bucket (so discarding CNEWS submissions in the old style). So I upgraded my CNEWS to insert that Content-Type header (so it is now USEPRO compliant), but that created another problem: 2. Newsgroup #2 is unaware of application/news-transmission, but has in the past accepted the original CNEWS format (and still does, AFAIK). However, it is not MIME-ignorant, as we had assumed existing software would be. It first interprets the unrecognized application/news-transmission as application/octet-stream, and then treats application/octet-stream as an indication of a binary, and that newsgroup does not accept binaries. Fortunately, it returns the article to the sender rather than to the bit bucket, so I immediately became aware of the problem. BTW, the moderator of Newsgroup #2 is one tskirvin. So, as the subject says, You Can't Win :-( I think the only way forward is for modertors to be encouraged to start recognizing application/news-transmission. But perhaps some warning in USEPRO might be in order too (which is possible, given we are still in AUTH 48). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131     Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58J8ZQj017367 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:08:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58J8Zp3017366; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:08:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 42.mail-out.ovh.net (42.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.189.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n58J8XPh017360 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:08:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 15024 invoked by uid 503); 8 Jun 2009 19:08:46 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail240.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 42.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2009 19:08:46 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2009 19:08:27 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.142.184) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2009 19:08:24 -0000 Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" References: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius><87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu><0FEFB6325BA64B7AA58D83451B96522C@Iulius><4A2D17E6.8090503@alvestrand.no> <87hbyq4mdd.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87hbyq4mdd.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Arguments to checkgroups control messages Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:08:29 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 7036874417854217657 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.142.184 (aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Russ, > + For complex cases with multiple <chkscope> arguments, > + start from an empty list of groups, include all groups in the > + checkgroups control message matching <chkscope> arguments > + without a "!" prefix, and then exclude all groups matching > + <chkscope> arguments with a "!" prefix. Follow this method > + regardless of the order of the <chkscope> arguments in the > + Control header field. That's pretty clear. This algorithm is fine and easy to follow. Thanks! -- Julien ÉLIE « O fortunatos nimium, sua si bona norint, agricolas. » (Virgile) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58J3PMu017103 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:03:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58J3PXU017102; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:03:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.stanford.edu (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.83]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58J3E7P017091 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:03:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp3.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 839FE1A0BF0 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp3.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF5E1A0BEF for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0D83DE78DC; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:03:14 -0700 (PDT) To: "Usefor WG" Subject: Re: multipart/mixed with checkgroups In-Reply-To: ("Julien =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9LIE=22's?= message of "Mon\, 8 Jun 2009 20\:09\:38 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius> <87d49i4jof.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4A2D1825.4000304@alvestrand.no> <878wk262qr.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:03:14 -0700 Message-ID: <87my8i35vx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Julien =C9LIE writes: > However, as for checkgroups, I do not see the point in seeking > application/news-checkgroups. Indeed, multipart is not said to be > possible and we want to honour the checkgroups body, be it > application/news-checkgroups or not. That's why I asked if it could > be added in USEPRO that multipart/mixed could be sent the same way > application/news-groupinfo is used for newgroup control articles. > Otherwise, there is not much to do with that new MIME type... This > addition would prepare for a future version of the specification > because new implementations will try to look for an > application/news-checkgroups entity. The point of specifying a MIME type from my perspective was that it let us create special rules about the body syntax, which one is not really supposed to do without a corresponding MIME type for the data. I agree that news server software, for backward compatibility, probably need to treat checkgroups the same regardless of the MIME type of the body. (Although if the MIME type is application/news-checkgroups, you can be somewhat more confident that the generator isn't doing weird things that aren't supported by the official syntax.) --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58IPUbc015195 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58IPUYF015194; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.stanford.edu (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.81]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58IPJWk015181 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp1.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CF17178B0F for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp1.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576D8178944 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 28C18E78DC; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:19 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Case-sensitivity in newsgroup names and message-IDs In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon\, 8 Jun 2009 11\:24\:14 GMT") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <760366CC8D864B7AB7BBC365A2AD8BEA@Iulius> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:25:19 -0700 Message-ID: <87d49e4m7k.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" writes: > USEFOR makes it clear that all newsgroups names SHOULD be in LC, but > recognizes that some existing ones might have UC in them, in which > case offering to NNTP (or to whatever else) exactly what the > 'official' name of the group is (as it appears in a checkgroups, if > you are lucky enough to be in a hierarchy that publishes those) is > likely to succeed (mostly). But USEFOR makes it clear that all _new_ > groups MUST be LC throughout. > > So the only thing you are entitled to "expect" is that if you offfer > LC names in order to retrieve LC groups, then that will _always_ work. > Anything else is problematical, so don't do it. The problem is, we don't actually say this anywhere that I can see, and historically several NNTP documents have claimed that newsgroup names are case-insensitive. The current NNTP standard says: Keywords are case insensitive; the case of keywords for commands MUST be ignored by the server. Command and response arguments are case or language specific only when stated, either in this document or in other relevant specifications. which means in the absence of some specific statement to the contrary, newsgroup names are case-insensitive. However, in practice, I thought they were always case-sensitive. However, I've not done a survey of what news software does outside of INN. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58IM2lc015048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:22:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58IM2Zv015047; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:22:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu (smtp4.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58ILpTO015019 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:22:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id F2FC0CA02 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp4.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D7CC9A4 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 733C6E78DC; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:21:50 -0700 (PDT) To: Usefor WG Subject: Re: Arguments to checkgroups control messages In-Reply-To: <4A2D17E6.8090503@alvestrand.no> (Harald Alvestrand's message of "Mon\, 08 Jun 2009 15\:53\:42 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> <87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <0FEFB6325BA64B7AA58D83451B96522C@Iulius> <4A2D17E6.8090503@alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:21:50 -0700 Message-ID: <87hbyq4mdd.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Harald Alvestrand writes: > It seems to me that since we're incompatible with something people > will also know about (wildmat), flagging the incompatibility is > important. > > We can't go on making changes in AUTH48 (it's never going to be > perfect), but if there's another reason for a delay and a diff, adding > a sentence pointing out the semantic difference would be good. I was thinking that we could just say that all the exclusions should go after the scope, but I forgot that we explicitly intended to permit multiple scopes for the same checkgroups. Here's a diff of the proposed change. USEPRO is still blocked on USEFOR, so we're not holding anything up at the moment, although I agree that we really need to stop making changes at some point soon. I've not yet sent it to the RFC Editor pending discussion here. This patch doesn't point out a difference with wildmat specifically; instead, it specifies the algorithm that one should use. That avoids introducing a concept that isn't already present in USEPRO and I think is even more precise than a caution. Index: usepro.xml =================================================================== --- usepro.xml (revision 5949) +++ usepro.xml (working copy) @@ -2022,14 +2022,24 @@ the valid groups in all hierarchies or sub-hierarchies with a prefix listed in the <chkscope> argument, excluding any sub-hierarchy where the <chkscope> argument is prefixed by - "!". If no <chkscope> argument is given, it applies to all + "!". For complex cases with multiple <chkscope> arguments, + start from an empty list of groups, include all groups in the + checkgroups control message matching <chkscope> arguments + without a "!" prefix, and then exclude all groups matching + <chkscope> arguments with a "!" prefix. Follow this method + regardless of the order of the <chkscope> arguments in the + Control header field. + + If no <chkscope> argument is given, it applies to all hierarchies for which group statements appear in the body of the - message. Since much existing software does not honor the - <chkscope> argument, the body of the checkgroups control - message MUST NOT contain group statements for newsgroups outside - the intended scope and SHOULD contain a correct newsgroup list - even for sub-hierarchies excluded with "!" <chkscope> terms. - News servers, however, MUST honor <chkscope> as specified + message. + + Since much existing software does not honor the <chkscope> + argument, the body of the checkgroups control message MUST NOT + contain group statements for newsgroups outside the intended + scope and SHOULD contain a correct newsgroup list even for + sub-hierarchies excluded with "!" <chkscope> terms. News + servers, however, MUST honor <chkscope> as specified here. The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. If -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58IA7VZ014394 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:10:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58IA7PC014393; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:10:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 42.mail-out.ovh.net (42.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.189.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n58I9tdt014367 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:10:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 14238 invoked by uid 503); 8 Jun 2009 18:10:07 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail240.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 42.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2009 18:10:07 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2009 18:09:49 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.142.184) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2009 18:09:46 -0000 Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" References: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius><87d49i4jof.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu><4A2D1825.4000304@alvestrand.no> <878wk262qr.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <878wk262qr.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: multipart/mixed with checkgroups Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:09:38 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 6046645450358128057 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.142.184 (aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Russ, >> Is existing deployed software compatible with such a SHOULD? If not, >> I'd say "not worth a change at this time". > > No, basically all existing software will process the whole body as a > checkgroups. I think Julien may have improved how INN now handles this, > but if so, that's probably the only server that might look at the MIME > type. INN 2.5.0 seeks the last application/news-groupinfo entity, if any, in a newgroup control article. However, as for checkgroups, I do not see the point in seeking application/news-checkgroups. Indeed, multipart is not said to be possible and we want to honour the checkgroups body, be it application/news-checkgroups or not. That's why I asked if it could be added in USEPRO that multipart/mixed could be sent the same way application/news-groupinfo is used for newgroup control articles. Otherwise, there is not much to do with that new MIME type... This addition would prepare for a future version of the specification because new implementations will try to look for an application/news-checkgroups entity. -- Julien ÉLIE « Je suis adroit de la main gauche et je suis gauche de la main droite. » (Raymond Devos) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58Hh421013101 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:43:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58Hh4W9013100; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:43:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58Hgrpp013088 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:43:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id D33841704FD for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1CDF170181 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6C2AAE7A19; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:42:52 -0700 (PDT) To: Usefor WG Subject: Re: multipart/mixed with checkgroups In-Reply-To: <4A2D1825.4000304@alvestrand.no> (Harald Alvestrand's message of "Mon\, 08 Jun 2009 15\:54\:45 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius> <87d49i4jof.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4A2D1825.4000304@alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:42:52 -0700 Message-ID: <878wk262qr.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Harald Alvestrand writes: > Russ Allbery wrote: >> Julien =C9LIE writes: >>> Wouldn't it be useful to declare that multipart/mixed SHOULD NOT be >>> used with checkgroups but that an implementation SHOULD process >>> checkgroups control articles as MIME messages and search for an >>> application/news-checkgroups entity? >> Eh. I'm not sure that human-readable bits in control messages is >> really that important to support... but I guess it would be >> occasionally useful. > Is existing deployed software compatible with such a SHOULD? If not, > I'd say "not worth a change at this time". No, basically all existing software will process the whole body as a checkgroups. I think Julien may have improved how INN now handles this, but if so, that's probably the only server that might look at the MIME type. --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58GCFE1009018 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:12:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58GCFEI009017; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:12:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-3.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-3.gradwell.net [79.135.125.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58GC3ar008994 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:12:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3*clerew^man*ac^uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-3.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4a2d3852.a98.0 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:12:02 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n58GC2XB003708 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:12:02 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n58GC1g8003698 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:12:01 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:25098 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Case-sensitivity in newsgroup names and message-IDs Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <760366CC8D864B7AB7BBC365A2AD8BEA@Iulius> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:24:14 GMT Lines: 39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <760366CC8D864B7AB7BBC365A2AD8BEA@Iulius> =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= writes: >Besides, I read in RFC 5536 (USEFOR): > NOTE: All-digit s conflict with one widely used storage > scheme for articles. Mixed-case groups cause confusion between > systems with case-sensitive matching and systems with case- > insensitive matching of s. >It does not say pretty well what is the expected behaviour! For >message-IDs, only s are dealt with. What for ?!? >(In RFC 5322? but I did not find it clearly.) >And nothing explicitly states that newsgroups are case-sensitive... That is because various systems treat them in various ways :-( . USEFOR makes it clear that all newsgroups names SHOULD be in LC, but recognizes that some existing ones might have UC in them, in which case offering to NNTP (or to whatever else) exactly what the 'official' name of the group is (as it appears in a checkgroups, if you are lucky enough to be in a hierarchy that publishes those) is likely to succeed (mostly). But USEFOR makes it clear that all _new_ groups MUST be LC throughout. So the only thing you are entitled to "expect" is that if you offfer LC names in order to retrieve LC groups, then that will _always_ work. Anything else is problematical, so don't do it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58Dspqs002309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:54:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58DspLS002308; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:54:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58Dsoj3002302 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:54:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0AC639E26D; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:54:49 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IkSCLkCrc46G; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:54:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hta-warp.trd.corp.google.com (unknown [195.18.164.170]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65F4539E1A9; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:54:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A2D1825.4000304@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:54:45 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090318) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russ Allbery CC: Usefor WG Subject: Re: multipart/mixed with checkgroups References: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius> <87d49i4jof.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87d49i4jof.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Russ Allbery wrote: > Julien =C9LIE writes: > > =20 >> Wouldn't it be useful to declare that multipart/mixed SHOULD NOT be >> used with checkgroups but that an implementation SHOULD process >> checkgroups control articles as MIME messages and search for >> an application/news-checkgroups entity? >> =20 > > Eh. I'm not sure that human-readable bits in control messages is reall= y > that important to support... but I guess it would be occasionally > useful. > > =20 Is existing deployed software compatible with such a SHOULD? If not, I'd say "not worth a change at this time". Harald Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58Ds03Y002278 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:54:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n58Ds0nd002277; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:54:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n58DrmFa002268 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:53:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC45B39E26D; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:53:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gJ8t85q66vUm; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:53:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hta-warp.trd.corp.google.com (unknown [195.18.164.170]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EB6339E1A9; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:53:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A2D17E6.8090503@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:53:42 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090318) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= CC: Usefor WG Subject: Re: Arguments to checkgroups control messages References: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> <87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <0FEFB6325BA64B7AA58D83451B96522C@Iulius> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Julien =C9LIE wrote: > > Hi all, > >>>> These lines are equivalent: >>>> >>>> Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 >>>> Control: checkgroups !de.alt de #2009021301 >>>> >>>> Maybe it should be highlighted in the text (so that it is not >>>> the last matching entry that prevails for each newsgroup). > > The problems comes from that, in RFC 3977 (NNTP), when something > is matched, it is always because of the last entry: > > 4.2. Wildmat Semantics > > A wildmat is tested against a string and either matches or does not > match. To do this, each constituent is matched > against the string, and the rightmost pattern that matches is > identified. If that is not preceded with "!", the > whole wildmat matches. If it is preceded by "!", or if no pattern> matches, the whole wildmat does not match. > > For example, consider the wildmat "a*,!*b,*c*": > > o The string "aaa" matches because the rightmost match is with "a*".= > > o The string "abb" does not match because the rightmost match is > with "*b". > > > In RFC 5537 (USEPRO), the order does not matter and the semantics > of "de !de.alt" works differently. > That's why this way of parsing should be better highlighted in USEPRO. > It seems to me that since we're incompatible with something people will=20 also know about (wildmat), flagging the incompatibility is important. We can't go on making changes in AUTH48 (it's never going to be=20 perfect), but if there's another reason for a delay and a diff, adding a = sentence pointing out the semantic difference would be good. Harald Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n584CbYv075803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n584CbeH075802; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n584CQiF075789 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id A8C7F1703EA for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5803B170471 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E6BC4E7A19; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:25 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: rra@stanford.edu Subject: Commit in docs/usefor (usepro.xml) User-Agent: svnlog/1.15 Message-Id: <20090608041225.E6BC4E7A19@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009 @ 21:12:25 Author: eagle Revision: 5949 Further updates to the message/news and application/news-transmission IANA registration templates to match what IANA currently has in their registration database and, for message/news, the original registration from Henry Spencer. Change the security considerations for application/news-transmission to use the superior wording from Henry Spencer's message/news registration. Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml =================================================================== --- docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-06-08 01:48:50 UTC (rev 5948) +++ docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-06-08 04:12:25 UTC (rev 5949) @@ -1498,12 +1498,14 @@ registered with IANA as provided for in . - The media type message/news, as previously registered with - IANA, is hereby declared obsolete. It was never widely - implemented, and its default treatment as application/octet-stream - by agents that did not recognize it was counter-productive. The - media type message/rfc822 (defined in Section 5.2.1 of - ) SHOULD be used in its place. + The media type message/news, as previously registered with IANA, + is hereby declared obsolete. The intent of this media type was to + define a standard way of transmitting news articles via mail for + human reading. However, it was never widely implemented, and its + default treatment as application/octet-stream by agents that did not + recognize it was counter-productive. The media type message/rfc822 + (defined in Section 5.2.1 of ) SHOULD be + used in its place.
The updated MIME media type definition of message/news @@ -1516,18 +1518,30 @@ Required parameters: none - Optional parameters: charset, compare message/rfc822 + Optional parameters: none - Encoding considerations: compare message/rfc822 (RFC 2046) + Encoding considerations: same as message/rfc822 - Security considerations: OBSOLETE, use message/rfc822. + Security considerations: News articles may constitute "control + messages", which can have effects on a + host's news system beyond just addition + of information. Since control messages + may occur in normal news flow, most hosts + are suitably defended against undesired + effects already, but transmission of news + articles via mail may bypass + firewall-type defenses. Reading a news + article transmitted by mail involves no + hazards beyond those of mail, but + submitting it to news software for + processing should be done with care. Interoperability considerations: Rarely used, and therefore often handled as application/octet-stream. Disposition should by default be inline. - Published specification: RFC 1036, RFC 5537 + Published specification: RFC 5537 Applications that use this media type: Some old mail and news user agents. @@ -1571,12 +1585,17 @@ supplied to ensure correct transmission over some 7bit transport medium. - Security considerations: A news article may be a control message - that, if processed, could have effects on - the recipient host's system beyond just - storage of the article. + Security considerations: News articles may constitute "control + messages", which can have effects on a + host's news system beyond just addition + of information. Since control messages + may occur in normal news flow, most hosts + are suitably defended against undesired + effects already, but transmission of news + articles via mail may bypass + firewall-type defenses. - Published specification: RFC 1036, RFC 5537 + Published specification: RFC 5537 Body part: A complete proto-article ready for injection into Netnews or an article Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n55IV89N047168 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:31:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n55IV8bm047167; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:31:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu (smtp4.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n55IUwLl047153 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:31:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id C9561C5CF for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp4.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63A4C5C0 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 805FDE7A19; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:30:56 -0700 (PDT) To: "Usefor WG" Subject: Re: multipart/mixed with checkgroups In-Reply-To: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius> ("Julien =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9LIE=22's?= message of "Fri\, 5 Jun 2009 20\:21\:26 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:30:56 -0700 Message-ID: <87d49i4jof.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Julien =C9LIE writes: > Wouldn't it be useful to declare that multipart/mixed SHOULD NOT be > used with checkgroups but that an implementation SHOULD process > checkgroups control articles as MIME messages and search for > an application/news-checkgroups entity? Eh. I'm not sure that human-readable bits in control messages is really that important to support... but I guess it would be occasionally useful. --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n55ILpCP046739 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:21:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n55ILpMk046738; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:21:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 27.mail-out.ovh.net (27.mail-out.ovh.net [91.121.30.210]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n55ILd4u046715 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:21:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 24519 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2009 19:24:14 -0000 Received: from gw2.ovh.net (HELO mail426.ha.ovh.net) (213.251.189.202) by 27.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 19:24:14 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 18:21:36 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.142.184) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 18:21:34 -0000 Message-ID: <589228117B674E629B28094618A6BAB1@Iulius> From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" Subject: multipart/mixed with checkgroups Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 20:21:26 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ISO-8859-15"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 7074592065728019897 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.142.184 (aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi, If multipart/mixed is used with checkgroups, it breaks all existing implementations because the body of the message should currently consist only of newsgroups. However, multipart/mixed can be used with newgroup messages. And application/news-groupinfo can lack the "For your newsgroups file:" line. Wouldn't it be useful to declare that multipart/mixed SHOULD NOT be used with checkgroups but that an implementation SHOULD process checkgroups control articles as MIME messages and search for an application/news-checkgroups entity? It would then allow to eventually have the possibility to send multipart checkgroups and therefore provide a description of the hierarchy within a text/plain entity in the checkgroups message. (That possibility could be added in xx years when a successor to USEFOR is written...) -- Julien ÉLIE « Travailler dur n'a jamais tué personne, mais pourquoi prendre le risque ? » (Edgar Bergen) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n555dtJo099183 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:39:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n555dtcc099181; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:39:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 42.mail-out.ovh.net (42.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.189.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n555dh8d099167 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:39:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 29310 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2009 05:39:54 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail421.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 42.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 05:39:54 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 05:39:40 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.142.184) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 05:39:38 -0000 Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" References: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> <87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <0FEFB6325BA64B7AA58D83451B96522C@Iulius> In-Reply-To: <0FEFB6325BA64B7AA58D83451B96522C@Iulius> Subject: Re: Arguments to checkgroups control messages Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:39:32 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 12653426103430348217 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.142.184 (aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi all, >>> These lines are equivalent: >>> >>> Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 >>> Control: checkgroups !de.alt de #2009021301 >>> >>> Maybe it should be highlighted in the text (so that it is not >>> the last matching entry that prevails for each newsgroup). The problems comes from that, in RFC 3977 (NNTP), when something is matched, it is always because of the last entry: 4.2. Wildmat Semantics A wildmat is tested against a string and either matches or does not match. To do this, each constituent is matched against the string, and the rightmost pattern that matches is identified. If that is not preceded with "!", the whole wildmat matches. If it is preceded by "!", or if no matches, the whole wildmat does not match. For example, consider the wildmat "a*,!*b,*c*": o The string "aaa" matches because the rightmost match is with "a*". o The string "abb" does not match because the rightmost match is with "*b". In RFC 5537 (USEPRO), the order does not matter and the semantics of "de !de.alt" works differently. That's why this way of parsing should be better highlighted in USEPRO. -- Julien ÉLIE « Inter pradendum sit saepe parumque bibendum. » Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n555dtsK099184 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:39:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n555dtFM099182; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:39:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 42.mail-out.ovh.net (42.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.189.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n555dm7l099168 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:39:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 29506 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2009 05:40:00 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail421.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 42.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 05:40:00 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 05:39:46 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.142.184) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2009 05:39:45 -0000 Message-ID: <760366CC8D864B7AB7BBC365A2AD8BEA@Iulius> From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" Subject: Case-sensitivity in newsgroup names and message-IDs Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:39:39 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ISO-8859-15"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 12655396428278463929 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.142.184 (aaubervilliers-151-1-23-184.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi, Following a discussion between Mateusz Viste, Russ Allbery, Urs Janßen and me on news.software.nntp (see ), it appears there is a problem with case-sensitivity of a newsgroup name and a message-ID. The following paragraph from RFC 3977 applies: 3.1. Commands and Responses Keywords are case insensitive; the case of keywords for commands MUST be ignored by the server. Command and response arguments are case or language specific only when stated, either in this document or in other relevant specifications. In practice, news servers implement: GROUP news.software.nntp 211 3219 149 6892 news.software.nntp GROUP news.software.NNTP 411 No such group news.software.NNTP that is to say that news.software.nntp and news.software.NNTP are *not* the same newsgroup. The same behaviour occurs if I use: Newsgroups: news.software.NNTP in the headers of an article. The post is rejected. Message-IDs are also parsed case-sensitively but that fact is not said in RFC 3977. Besides, I read in RFC 5536 (USEFOR): Some software will try to match the of a in a case-insensitive fashion; some will match it in a case-sensitive fashion. Implementations MUST NOT generate a Message-ID where the only difference from another Message-ID is the case of characters in the part. NOTE: All-digit s conflict with one widely used storage scheme for articles. Mixed-case groups cause confusion between systems with case-sensitive matching and systems with case- insensitive matching of s. It does not say pretty well what is the expected behaviour! For message-IDs, only s are dealt with. What for ?!? (In RFC 5322? but I did not find it clearly.) And nothing explicitly states that newsgroups are case-sensitive... In Son of 1036, it was said: | 2.5. Case-Sensitivity | | Text in newsgroup names, header parameters, etc. is case- | sensitive unless stated otherwise. | | NOTE: This is at variance with MAIL, which is | case-insensitive unless stated otherwise, but is | consistent with news historical practice and | existing news software. See the comments on back- | ward compatibility in section 1. | As with From addresses, a message ID's local part is case- | sensitive and its domain is case-insensitive. The "<" and | ">" are parts of the message ID, not peculiarities of the | Message-ID header. | NOTE: Possibly newsgroup names should have been | case-insensitive, but all existing software treats | them as case-sensitive. (RFC 977 [rrr] claims | that they are case-insensitive in NNTP, but exist- | ing implementations are believed to ignore this.) | The simplest solution is just to ban use of upper- | case letters, since no widespread newsgroup name | uses them anyway; this avoids any possibility of | confusion. Such comments are no longer present in USEFOR. Shouldn't something be done on that subject? -- Julien ÉLIE « Les idées fausses ne sont pas toujours mauvaises. » (Marcel Aymé) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n52HAMFr031163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:10:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n52HAMvC031162; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:10:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 42.mail-out.ovh.net (42.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.189.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n52HABaW031131 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:10:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 26072 invoked by uid 503); 2 Jun 2009 17:10:21 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail440.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 42.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 2 Jun 2009 17:10:21 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 2 Jun 2009 17:10:08 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-45-218.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.135.218) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 2 Jun 2009 17:10:06 -0000 Message-ID: <0FEFB6325BA64B7AA58D83451B96522C@Iulius> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" References: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> <87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Arguments to checkgroups control messages Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:10:03 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 6696289697567145401 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.135.218 (aaubervilliers-151-1-45-218.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: First of all, thanks, Russ, for your response on the RFC editor's commit. >> chkscope = 1*( 1*WSP ["!"] newsgroup-name ) >> >> These lines are equivalent: >> >> Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 >> Control: checkgroups !de.alt de #2009021301 >> >> Maybe it should be highlighted in the text (so that it is not >> the last matching entry that prevails for each newsgroup). >> >> By the way, it should also be said that every newsgroup should/must >> be listed only *once* in a checkgroups. I did not find the >> information stated clearly. > > Hm -- I agree with both of these, but it's likely to go through another > round of AD or chair approval since it's beyond what the RFC Editor can > just change. I'm not sure if the change is worth it, but I can prepare > a diff if people feel like it is. I believe it is worthwhile... because of this mere sentence on news.software.nntp : >> Besides, the patch totally breaks "checkgroups !hr.admin hr". > > Which, as I understand it, is incorrect - as exclusion patterns must trail. Amusing it came up only a few hours after my original post to ask for a better highlighting of this fact in USEPRO! I believe it would be useful to future implementors... -- Julien ÉLIE « Il vaut mieux avoir de l'avenir que du passé. » Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n51LKTMl051034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n51LKTx4051033; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n51LKIbN051013 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E8A9170AD6 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA1A170AEF for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BC440E7937; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:17 -0700 (PDT) To: "Usefor WG" Subject: Re: Arguments to checkgroups control messages In-Reply-To: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> ("Julien =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9LIE=22's?= message of "Mon\, 1 Jun 2009 10\:23\:07 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:20:17 -0700 Message-ID: <87iqjfirce.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Julien =C9LIE writes: > chkscope =3D 1*( 1*WSP ["!"] newsgroup-name ) > > These lines are equivalent: > > Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 > Control: checkgroups !de.alt de #2009021301 > > Maybe it should be highlighted in the text (so that it is not > the last matching entry that prevails for each newsgroup). > > By the way, it should also be said that every newsgroup should/must > be listed only *once* in a checkgroups. I did not find the > information stated clearly. Hm -- I agree with both of these, but it's likely to go through another round of AD or chair approval since it's beyond what the RFC Editor can just change. I'm not sure if the change is worth it, but I can prepare a diff if people feel like it is. --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n51LIttW050882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:18:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n51LItmt050881; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:18:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu (smtp4.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n51LIi9G050868 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:18:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 18CE5C9A4 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp4.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4373C961 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7DFCEE7937; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT) To: "Usefor WG" Subject: Re: Missing RFC editor commit In-Reply-To: ("Julien =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9LIE=22's?= message of "Sun\, 31 May 2009 22\:56\:10 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux) References: <0000428F2AD640CABF5EFC698B826135@Iulius> <87iqjmqi6m.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:18:43 -0700 Message-ID: <87my8rirf0.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Julien =C9LIE writes: > bar.isp.example was not a correct <path-identity> for that > - source but simply that that identity did not match the > + source but simply that the identity did not match the > expectations of foo-news.) > > Isn't there something better in English to say "that" in that case? > Because we have in the same sentence "that source" and "the identity"; > it would be better to keep the meaning of "that identity". It's a style thing, and I assume the RFC Editor uses a fairly conservative English style that avoids all doubled words even when grammatically correct. "the" is sufficiently specific in English to serve as "that" in a pinch, so I was okay with the change. > @@ -986,8 +1010,7 @@ > If it implements one of the mechanisms described in target=3D"history" />, this means that it MUST reject any > article whose date falls outside the cutoff interval since it > - won't know whether such articles had been accepted previously > - or not. > + won't know whether or not such articles had been accepted pr= eviously. > Is "or not" necessary? Isn't "it won't know whether such articles" enoug= h? > (It happens twice in the text.) It's not strictly necessary, but it doesn't hurt either. It's better than what it was, which had the "or not" at the end of the sentence. > - corresponding unique identifier of the other medium, but if > - not at least as a comment in the message. This helps > - greatly with preventing loops. > + corresponding unique identifier of the other > + medium. However, if it is not preserved in this way, > + then at least it should be preserved > + as a comment in the message. This helps greatly with > + preventing loops. > Missing space before "However". I'm pretty sure that the rendering process smashes my "traditional" double-spacing for sentences anyway, so it ends up not mattering. > @@ -2412,8 +2497,9 @@ > Additional media types are defined for improved > structuring, specification, and automated processing of > - control messages ( and - target=3D"checkgroup" />). > + control messages (Sections + format=3D"counter" /> and + target=3D"checkgroup" format=3D"counter" />). > It makes me notice that there is an inconsistency between "(Section > x.y)" and "(see Section x.y)" or equivalent in the RFC. Most of the > references use "see" but a few, like this one, do not. Shouldn't it > be homogenized? This was one of the ones where I just left it at whatever the RFC Editor did, since they seem to have some sort of policy and style guide for it. --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n518NQSD085968 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Jun 2009 01:23:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n518NQGI085967; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 01:23:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 39.mail-out.ovh.net (39.mail-out.ovh.net [213.251.138.60]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n518NEGd085933 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 01:23:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: (qmail 13351 invoked by uid 503); 1 Jun 2009 08:23:35 -0000 Received: from b9.ovh.net (HELO mail147.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.59) by 39.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 1 Jun 2009 08:23:35 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 1 Jun 2009 08:23:19 -0000 Received: from aaubervilliers-151-1-45-218.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr (HELO Iulius) (julien%trigofacile.com@83.114.135.218) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 1 Jun 2009 08:23:17 -0000 Message-ID: <9C06311F70364908A77C198DE0BA7108@Iulius> From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: "Usefor WG" Subject: Arguments to checkgroups control messages Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:23:07 +0200 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ISO-8859-15"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 10373197318282280377 X-Ovh-Remote: 83.114.135.218 (aaubervilliers-151-1-45-218.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: DONE|H 0.5/N Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi, chkscope = 1*( 1*WSP ["!"] newsgroup-name ) These lines are equivalent: Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 Control: checkgroups !de.alt de #2009021301 Maybe it should be highlighted in the text (so that it is not the last matching entry that prevails for each newsgroup). By the way, it should also be said that every newsgroup should/must be listed only *once* in a checkgroups. I did not find the information stated clearly. -- Julien ÉLIE « L'atour est fiel aux Huns valides. »