From trg@garzagarcia.com Tue Sep 06 07:32:40 2005
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Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 11:32:37 +0000
From: Doctor <trg@garzagarcia.com>
Subject: Pharmaceutical revolution
To: Webdav-archive <webdav-archive@ietf.org>
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Vlabgra $3.3
Leviztra $3.3
Ciawlis $3.7
Imitzrex $16.4
Flomaax $2.2
Ultrvam $0.78
Viodxx $4.75
Ambnien $2.2
Valxium $0.97 
Xanahx $1.09
Sotma $3
Merizdia $2.2  



our site
http://decendine.com/?GFSMKDRldRUFRHH1JGVllbRVF1WFdHUhteQFQ=

___
Best regards,
Online Pharmaceuticals

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<html>
<body>
<strong>Vlaegra</strong> - $3.3
<br>
<strong>Levietra</strong> - $3.3<br>
<strong>Ciaxlis</strong> - $3.7<br>
<strong>Imitsrex</strong> - $16.4<br>
<strong>Flomjax</strong> - $2.2<br>
<strong>Ultrdam</strong> - $0.78<br>
<strong>Viorxx</strong> - $4.75
<br>
<strong>Ambbien</strong> - $2.2<br>
<strong>Valzium</strong> - $0.97 
<br>
<strong>Xanarx</strong> - $1.09<br>
<strong>Soima</strong> - $3
<br>
<strong>Meriedia</strong> - $2.2<br>
<br>  
<a href="http://decendine.com/?GFSMKDRldRUFRHH1JGVllbRVF1WFdHUhteQFQ="><strong>our website</strong></a><br>
<br>
___
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Online Pharmaceuticals
</body>
</html>


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From w3c-dist-auth-request@frink.w3.org Tue Sep 06 14:39:56 2005
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A few questions re. the BEA Weblogic webserver and it's support of WebDAV please:

o Is the WebDAV Litmus Test at: http://www.webdav.org/neon/litmus/ still considered the best measure of WebDAV standards compliance?

o I found no results on that page for BEA WebLogic so does anyone here have any experience with and opinion about the level of BEA Weblogic  WebDAV standards compliance?

o How does SSH muddy the waters re the two questions above?

Thanks in advance for whatever light may be shed on these questions?
-- 
==================================================================
Dr. Frank Lowney  Georgia College & State University
    Manager, Web Enabled Resources, a unit of the
    Division of Technology Solutions
    E-Mail: frank.lowney@gcsu.edu
    Professional Pages: http://www.gcsu.edu/oiit/eis/
    Personal Pages: http://www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~flowney
Voice: (478) 445-5260
NOTICE: Please be advised that I am hearing impaired and communicate most effectively via e-mail.  Follow-up summaries of telephone conversations by e-mail are most appreciated.
==================================================================
We don't make instruction effective, we make effective instruction more accessible.





From w3c-dist-auth-request@frink.w3.org Tue Sep 06 14:46:26 2005
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Frank Lowney wrote:
> A few questions re. the BEA Weblogic webserver and it's support of WebDAV please:
> 
> o Is the WebDAV Litmus Test at: http://www.webdav.org/neon/litmus/ still considered the best measure of WebDAV standards compliance?

I'm not aware of anything else (public).

> o I found no results on that page for BEA WebLogic so does anyone here have any experience with and opinion about the level of BEA Weblogic  WebDAV standards compliance?

No.

> o How does SSH muddy the waters re the two questions above?

You mean https?

> Thanks in advance for whatever light may be shed on these questions?

Best regards, Julian




From w3c-dist-auth-request@frink.w3.org Tue Sep 06 15:41:29 2005
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From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
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        RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>,
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The IESG has approved the following document:

- 'Quota and Size Properties for DAV Collections '
   <draft-ietf-webdav-quota-07.txt> as a Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the WWW Distributed Authoring and Versioning 
Working Group. 

The IESG contact persons are Ted Hardie and Scott Hollenbeck.

A URL of this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-webdav-quota-07.txt

Technical Summary
 
WebDAV servers are frequently deployed with quota (size) limitations.
This document discusses the properties and minor behaviors needed for
clients to interoperate with quota (size) implementations on WebDAV
repositories.
 
Working Group Summary
 
There was considerable discussion of early versions of this document,
but the working group came to consensus on this version.
 
Protocol Quality
 
This document was reviewed for the IESG by Ted Hardie





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From holloman@cienciaficcion.com Fri Sep 09 07:28:06 2005
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Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 11:28:02 +0000
From: Doctor <holloman@cienciaficcion.com>
Subject: Pharmaceutical revolution
To: Webdav-archive <webdav-archive@ietf.org>
References: <L71D2EEJ8IJLGII6@ietf.org>
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------=_NextPart_JJ1A6D_L9FJBK617LI8BG506D
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Vlaugra $3.3
Levixtra $3.3
Ciaslis $3.7
Imitkrex $16.4
Flomlax $2.2
Ultrpam $0.78
Viofxx $4.75
Ambtien $2.2
Valkium $0.97 
Xanakx $1.09
Sonma $3
Merirdia $2.2  



our site
http://anseveroth.com/?GFSMKDRldRUFRHH1JGVllbRVF1WFdHUhteQFQ=

___
Best regards,
Online Pharmaceuticals

------=_NextPart_JJ1A6D_L9FJBK617LI8BG506D
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
<body>
<strong>Vlaygra</strong> - $3.3
<br>
<strong>Leviotra</strong> - $3.3<br>
<strong>Ciahlis</strong> - $3.7<br>
<strong>Imitarex</strong> - $16.4<br>
<strong>Flomlax</strong> - $2.2<br>
<strong>Ultraam</strong> - $0.78<br>
<strong>Vioaxx</strong> - $4.75
<br>
<strong>Ambaien</strong> - $2.2<br>
<strong>Valgium</strong> - $0.97 
<br>
<strong>Xanacx</strong> - $1.09<br>
<strong>Sogma</strong> - $3
<br>
<strong>Merigdia</strong> - $2.2<br>
<br>  
<a href="http://anseveroth.com/?GFSMKDRldRUFRHH1JGVllbRVF1WFdHUhteQFQ="><strong>our website</strong></a><br>
<br>
___
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Online Pharmaceuticals
</body>
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From w3c-dist-auth-request@frink.w3.org Sat Sep 17 04:22:25 2005
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Hi,

I just submitted a new revision of the WebDAV mount spec. From the abstract:

'This document specifies a mechanism and a document format that enables 
Web Distributed Authoring and Versioning (WebDAV) servers to send 
"mounting" information to a WebDAV client. The protocol is designed to 
work on any platform and with any combination of browser and WebDAV 
client, relying solely on the well-understood dispatch of documents 
through their MIME type.'

Since the first draft last month, this draft has been reviewed and 
implemented in two WebDAV clients (one of which is a reference 
implementation for the Microsoft Webfolder client, appearing as an 
appendix in the spec). It has also been implemented in the WebDAV stack 
of SAP Netweaver KM.

At this point I believe the spec is complete and I plan to submit it to 
the RFC Editor for publication as Informational RFC in three weeks. 
Feedback appreciated.

HTML version: 
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-mount-latest.html>

Best regards, Julian


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.


	Title		: Mounting WebDAV (Web Distributed Authoring and Versioning) servers
	Author(s)	: J. Reschke
	Filename	: draft-reschke-webdav-mount-01.txt
	Pages		: 14
	Date		: 2005-9-16
	
This document specifies a mechanism and a document format that
    enables Web Distributed Authoring and Versioning (WebDAV) servers to
    send "mounting" information to a WebDAV client.  The protocol is
    designed to work on any platform and with any combination of browser
    and WebDAV client, relying solely on the well-understood dispatch of
    documents through their MIME type.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reschke-webdav-mount-01.txt

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-- 
<green/>bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760

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From realking@correo1.com Sun Sep 18 10:53:08 2005
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___
Best regards,
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------=_NextPart_000_0002_7BD4CA36.7B798BB3--





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----------hxtsgsaaufockijoqful--




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--Apple-Mail-2-776666082
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   Section 3.1.5 of RFC 3253 (DAV + versioning) says defines  
DAV:supported-report as:

     <!ELEMENT supported-report report>

   Which means it has to have exactly one report element.

   But DAV:supported-report is also used as the name of a  
precondition in section 3.6, which means that one should return this  
XML, according to 1.6.1:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<D:error xmlns:D="DAV:">
  <D:supported-report/>
</D:error>

   Which is problematic since it uses an empty supported-report which  
is inconsistent with the element definition in 3.1.5.

   Am I reading this wrong?

   Also, I can't find an element definition for DAV:error in RFCs  
3253 or 2518.  Where is it defined?

     Thanks,
     -wsv


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Wilfredo S=E1nchez Vega wrote:
>   Section 3.1.5 of RFC 3253 (DAV + versioning) says defines=20
> DAV:supported-report as:
>=20
>     <!ELEMENT supported-report report>
>=20
>   Which means it has to have exactly one report element.
>=20
>   But DAV:supported-report is also used as the name of a precondition i=
n=20
> section 3.6, which means that one should return this XML, according to=20
> 1.6.1:
>=20
> <?xml version=3D"1.0"?>
> <D:error xmlns:D=3D"DAV:">
>  <D:supported-report/>
> </D:error>
>=20
>   Which is problematic since it uses an empty supported-report which is=
=20
> inconsistent with the element definition in 3.1.5.
>=20
>   Am I reading this wrong?
>=20
>   Also, I can't find an element definition for DAV:error in RFCs 3253 o=
r=20
> 2518.  Where is it defined?

DTDs in WebDAV specs aren't used for validation, what counts is the spec=20
prose.

Unfortunately, only the newer specs are explicit about this, for=20
instance: <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc3648.html#rfc.section.1>.

Best regards, Julian







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Hi,

I've got feedback from an implementor who pointed out two bugs, which I 
have fixed in 
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-mount-latest.html>:

1) the example message wasn't using trailing slashes on collection names 
(which is recommended in RFC2518), and

2) the MS webfolder reference implementation wasn't handling absent 
<open> elements properly.

Best regards, Julian





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Elias Sinderson wrote:
> 
> Julian Reschke wrote:
> 
>> [...] So can we please consider the union of 
>> <http://www.webdav.org/wg/rfcdev/issues.htm> and 
>> <http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=WebDAV-RFC2518-bis> 
>> as current issues list? 
> 
> I would think this to be a reasonable starting point for the upcoming 
> efforts.
> 
> Re: Bugzilla, are we intending to continue tracking issues on the 
> bugzilla installation? I would be in favor of this for a number of 
> reasons that I'll skip over here. (I'll happily enumerate them if asked, 
> but one should think they them to be rather self-evident and well 
> understood.) Assuming all are in favor of this approach, someone will 
> need to take on the task of importing the issues listed on the 
> webdav.org site into bugzilla. . .
> 
> For historical and other reasons it would be desireable to import all of 
> the issues listed, although a certain amount of pragmatism would dictate 
> that closed issues could be safely omitted. At the very least, an email 
> should be sent to the mailing list with a summary of the already closed 
> issues as detailed within the webdav.org list.
> 
> Following the import into bugzilla, it would seem straightforward to go 
> through them one-by-one in seperate threads.


Lisa, Cullen,

it would be nice if you could provide some feedback about what's going 
on. Are there any plans to actually get the work finished, should we the 
working group give up, or are new volunteers for authoring the spec needed?

Best regards, Julian




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From: Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>
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Sure, no problem.

  - I last published RFC2518bis a couple months ago:  
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/idindex.cgi? 
command=id_detail&id=8360.  I don't recall seeing any comments.

  - I don't think Jason Crawford has the time to contribute any more :(   
So no more RFC2518bis co-author or issue tracking.

  - I've been hunting around for interoperability documentation --  
because we did do two interop tests -- but we don't seem to have that  
available now (perhaps it was not intended to be public outside the  
interops anyway).  We never did get somebody to volunteer to collect  
interop data or format that for the IESG  
(http://www.ietf.org/IESG/Implementations/).

What are other peoples' thoughts about how to do this now?

Lisa

On Sep 23, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:

>
> Elias Sinderson wrote:
>> Julian Reschke wrote:
>>> [...] So can we please consider the union of  
>>> <http://www.webdav.org/wg/rfcdev/issues.htm> and  
>>> <http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=WebDAV- 
>>> RFC2518-bis> as current issues list?
>> I would think this to be a reasonable starting point for the upcoming  
>> efforts.
>> Re: Bugzilla, are we intending to continue tracking issues on the  
>> bugzilla installation? I would be in favor of this for a number of  
>> reasons that I'll skip over here. (I'll happily enumerate them if  
>> asked, but one should think they them to be rather self-evident and  
>> well understood.) Assuming all are in favor of this approach, someone  
>> will need to take on the task of importing the issues listed on the  
>> webdav.org site into bugzilla. . .
>> For historical and other reasons it would be desireable to import all  
>> of the issues listed, although a certain amount of pragmatism would  
>> dictate that closed issues could be safely omitted. At the very  
>> least, an email should be sent to the mailing list with a summary of  
>> the already closed issues as detailed within the webdav.org list.
>> Following the import into bugzilla, it would seem straightforward to  
>> go through them one-by-one in seperate threads.
>
>
> Lisa, Cullen,
>
> it would be nice if you could provide some feedback about what's going  
> on. Are there any plans to actually get the work finished, should we  
> the working group give up, or are new volunteers for authoring the  
> spec needed?
>
> Best regards, Julian
>





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It sounds like we need another co-author to replace Jason.

Cheers,
Geoff

Lisa wrote on 09/24/2005 04:59:20 PM:

> 
> Sure, no problem.
> 
>   - I last published RFC2518bis a couple months ago: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/idindex.cgi? 
> command=id_detail&id=8360.  I don't recall seeing any comments.
> 
>   - I don't think Jason Crawford has the time to contribute any more :(  

> So no more RFC2518bis co-author or issue tracking.
> 
>   - I've been hunting around for interoperability documentation -- 
> because we did do two interop tests -- but we don't seem to have that 
> available now (perhaps it was not intended to be public outside the 
> interops anyway).  We never did get somebody to volunteer to collect 
> interop data or format that for the IESG 
> (http://www.ietf.org/IESG/Implementations/).
> 
> What are other peoples' thoughts about how to do this now?
> 
> Lisa
> 
> On Sep 23, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> 
> >
> > Elias Sinderson wrote:
> >> Julian Reschke wrote:
> >>> [...] So can we please consider the union of 
> >>> <http://www.webdav.org/wg/rfcdev/issues.htm> and 
> >>> <http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=WebDAV- 
> >>> RFC2518-bis> as current issues list?
> >> I would think this to be a reasonable starting point for the upcoming 
 
> >> efforts.
> >> Re: Bugzilla, are we intending to continue tracking issues on the 
> >> bugzilla installation? I would be in favor of this for a number of 
> >> reasons that I'll skip over here. (I'll happily enumerate them if 
> >> asked, but one should think they them to be rather self-evident and 
> >> well understood.) Assuming all are in favor of this approach, someone 
 
> >> will need to take on the task of importing the issues listed on the 
> >> webdav.org site into bugzilla. . .
> >> For historical and other reasons it would be desireable to import all 
 
> >> of the issues listed, although a certain amount of pragmatism would 
> >> dictate that closed issues could be safely omitted. At the very 
> >> least, an email should be sent to the mailing list with a summary of 
> >> the already closed issues as detailed within the webdav.org list.
> >> Following the import into bugzilla, it would seem straightforward to 
> >> go through them one-by-one in seperate threads.
> >
> >
> > Lisa, Cullen,
> >
> > it would be nice if you could provide some feedback about what's going 
 
> > on. Are there any plans to actually get the work finished, should we 
> > the working group give up, or are new volunteers for authoring the 
> > spec needed?
> >
> > Best regards, Julian
> >
> 
> 

--=_alternative 000BE13B85257087_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"


<br><font size=2><tt>It sounds like we need another co-author to replace
Jason.</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Cheers,</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Geoff</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Lisa wrote on 09/24/2005 04:59:20 PM:<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Sure, no problem.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; - I last published RFC2518bis a couple months ago: &nbsp;<br>
&gt; https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/idindex.cgi? <br>
&gt; command=id_detail&amp;id=8360. &nbsp;I don't recall seeing any comments.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; - I don't think Jason Crawford has the time to contribute any
more :( &nbsp; <br>
&gt; So no more RFC2518bis co-author or issue tracking.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; - I've been hunting around for interoperability documentation
-- &nbsp;<br>
&gt; because we did do two interop tests -- but we don't seem to have that
&nbsp;<br>
&gt; available now (perhaps it was not intended to be public outside the
&nbsp;<br>
&gt; interops anyway). &nbsp;We never did get somebody to volunteer to
collect &nbsp;<br>
&gt; interop data or format that for the IESG &nbsp;<br>
&gt; (http://www.ietf.org/IESG/Implementations/).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; What are other peoples' thoughts about how to do this now?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Lisa<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Sep 23, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Elias Sinderson wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Julian Reschke wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; [...] So can we please consider the union of &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;http://www.webdav.org/wg/rfcdev/issues.htm&gt; and
&nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=WebDAV-
<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; RFC2518-bis&gt; as current issues list?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I would think this to be a reasonable starting point for
the upcoming &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; efforts.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Re: Bugzilla, are we intending to continue tracking issues
on the &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; bugzilla installation? I would be in favor of this for a
number of &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; reasons that I'll skip over here. (I'll happily enumerate
them if &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; asked, but one should think they them to be rather self-evident
and &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; well understood.) Assuming all are in favor of this approach,
someone &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; will need to take on the task of importing the issues listed
on the &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; webdav.org site into bugzilla. . .<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; For historical and other reasons it would be desireable to
import all &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; of the issues listed, although a certain amount of pragmatism
would &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; dictate that closed issues could be safely omitted. At the
very &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; least, an email should be sent to the mailing list with a
summary of &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; the already closed issues as detailed within the webdav.org
list.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Following the import into bugzilla, it would seem straightforward
to &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; go through them one-by-one in seperate threads.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Lisa, Cullen,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; it would be nice if you could provide some feedback about what's
going &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt; on. Are there any plans to actually get the work finished, should
we &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt; the working group give up, or are new volunteers for authoring
the &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt; spec needed?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Best regards, Julian<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
</tt></font>
--=_alternative 000BE13B85257087_=--




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Right,  I can't really help out any longer.   Sorry.

J.


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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Right, &nbsp;I can't really help out
any longer. &nbsp; Sorry.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">J.</font>
<br>
<br>
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From w3c-dist-auth-request@frink.w3.org Sun Sep 25 04:08:46 2005
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From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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References: <BF24BB89.4BD74%fluffy@cisco.com> <43096225.2030902@gmx.de> <430B8C7A.1000709@cse.ucsc.edu> <43344B15.5040001@gmx.de> <794fae3ecd38f61600684db50aba4fb9@osafoundation.org>
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Lisa Dusseault wrote:
> 
> Sure, no problem.
> 
>  - I last published RFC2518bis a couple months ago: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/idindex.cgi?command=id_detail&id=8360.  
> I don't recall seeing any comments.

Actually I was waiting that the WG comes to agreement about how we do 
the issue tracking. It's a bit pointless to review drafts if there's no 
process how to deal with the comments.

How about re-starting work on those issues that are on the two issue 
lists we have (<http://www.webdav.org/wg/rfcdev/issues.htm> and 
<http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=WebDAV-RFC2518-bis>) 
and using one of the two as the current issue tracker (as suggested by 
Elias and myself)?

> ...
>  - I've been hunting around for interoperability documentation -- 
> because we did do two interop tests -- but we don't seem to have that 
> available now (perhaps it was not intended to be public outside the 
> interops anyway).  We never did get somebody to volunteer to collect 
> interop data or format that for the IESG 
> (http://www.ietf.org/IESG/Implementations/).
> 
> What are other peoples' thoughts about how to do this now?

That's probably a major problem.

Without that kind of information, we won't be able to progress to the 
next standards level, right?

As far as I am concerned, the importance of a revised version of RFC2518 
is much higher than actually moving to Draft Standard, thus if we these 
two goals conflict (time, interop experience with changes introduced 
since RFC2518) we should IMHO sacrifice the latter one.

Best regards, Julian





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I agree with Julian on this.

Cheers,
Geoff

Julian wrote on 09/25/2005 04:04:46 AM:
 
> As far as I am concerned, the importance of a revised version of RFC2518 

> is much higher than actually moving to Draft Standard, thus if we these 
> two goals conflict (time, interop experience with changes introduced 
> since RFC2518) we should IMHO sacrifice the latter one.


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<br><font size=2><tt>I agree with Julian on this.</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Cheers,</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Geoff</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Julian wrote on 09/25/2005 04:04:46 AM:<br>
 <br>
&gt; As far as I am concerned, the importance of a revised version of RFC2518
<br>
&gt; is much higher than actually moving to Draft Standard, thus if we
these <br>
&gt; two goals conflict (time, interop experience with changes introduced
<br>
&gt; since RFC2518) we should IMHO sacrifice the latter one.<br>
<br>
</tt></font>
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From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>,
        Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>
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On 9/25/05 1:04 AM, "Julian Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:

> Actually I was waiting that the WG comes to agreement about how we do
> the issue tracking. It's a bit pointless to review drafts if there's no
> process how to deal with the comments.

You are going to hate my answer on this so I apologize in advance :-)

The issues do need to show up in the email lists since that is the archived
record of IETF stuff. Clearly they can also be recorded in various other
tools - I've seen groups successfully use everything from bugzilla, blogs,
source code control systems, word documents with revision control, text
files, and just plain old email. The real point of these systems is to help
the author of a document track what they need to do. Because of this, I
believe that issues fall into two categories. 1) resolved things where the
WG group agrees and the author just needs to update the documents 2) complex
issues where it is not clear if the WG has reached consensus.

For the category 1 stuff, I plan to leave it up to the author of a document
to decide how they want to do this and how much they want others members of
the group to be able to edit, update, add etc. I'm a big fan of
collaborative tools but whatever the author is comfortable with that will
get the job done quickest is fine with me.

For the category 2 stuff, I as chair need to be able to have clear
visibilities into these and so does everyone one else in the WG. Also, there
are not many of these sort of issue. Because of this, I plan to track these
using the email list as the authoritative copy. I don't care if they are
also tracked in the system the author is using but on the key topics we are
having a hard time getting consensus on, I'm going to do it on the list.
This may seem arcane and prehistoric to do it with ASCII email but there is
only a handful of items and it will work out fine and no one can complain
about it later. It may not be best, but it will work and I rather focus
energy on getting to consensus instead of debating tools.

Cullen










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From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Geoffrey M Clemm <geoffrey.clemm@us.ibm.com>,
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Given the current state of collection of interop results and planning for
what needs to be collected, this sounds like the right path to me. I'll take
this as consensus unless I hear some objections.

<big red alert warning>

Just because we are recycling at proposed, we should not use this as an
excuse to put more stuff in. Let's document what people are doing and the
key things they need and we will be that much closer to draft. If there are
parts no one uses or needs, we can take them out. From a what goes in this
document point of view, let's keep thinking about our goal is to get to
draft not greatly expand the protocol. We can use *other* RFCs to expand the
protocol. 

<\alert>

Cullen



On 9/25/05 5:07 AM, "Geoffrey M Clemm" <geoffrey.clemm@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> 
> I agree with Julian on this.
> 
> Cheers, 
> Geoff 
> 
> Julian wrote on 09/25/2005 04:04:46 AM:
>  
>> As far as I am concerned, the importance of a revised version of RFC2518
>> is much higher than actually moving to Draft Standard, thus if we these
>> two goals conflict (time, interop experience with changes introduced
>> since RFC2518) we should IMHO sacrifice the latter one.
> 
> 





From w3c-dist-auth-request@frink.w3.org Mon Sep 26 13:02:16 2005
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Cullen Jennings wrote:
> On 9/25/05 1:04 AM, "Julian Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
>> Actually I was waiting that the WG comes to agreement about how we do
>> the issue tracking. It's a bit pointless to review drafts if there's no
>> process how to deal with the comments.
> 
> You are going to hate my answer on this so I apologize in advance :-)

No need to. Anything that gets us productive is good.

> The issues do need to show up in the email lists since that is the archived
> record of IETF stuff. Clearly they can also be recorded in various other
> tools - I've seen groups successfully use everything from bugzilla, blogs,
> source code control systems, word documents with revision control, text
> files, and just plain old email. The real point of these systems is to help
> the author of a document track what they need to do. Because of this, I
> believe that issues fall into two categories. 1) resolved things where the
> WG group agrees and the author just needs to update the documents 2) complex
> issues where it is not clear if the WG has reached consensus.

I absolutely agree that issues need to be reported and discussed here. 
As a matter of fact all the issues I raised *have* been reported here, 
for instance in...:

<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/2004JulSep/0153.html>
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/2004JulSep/0154.html>
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/2004JulSep/0156.html>

The only reason why I entered them in BugZilla was that I was told to :-)

 > ...


Best regards, Julian





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This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 005D70E985257088_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

I agree completely with the contents of Cullen's big red alert.

Cheers,
Geoff

Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote on 09/26/2005 12:56:06 PM:

> 
> Given the current state of collection of interop results and planning 
for
> what needs to be collected, this sounds like the right path to me. I'll 
take
> this as consensus unless I hear some objections.
> 
> <big red alert warning>
> 
> Just because we are recycling at proposed, we should not use this as an
> excuse to put more stuff in. Let's document what people are doing and 
the
> key things they need and we will be that much closer to draft. If there 
are
> parts no one uses or needs, we can take them out. From a what goes in 
this
> document point of view, let's keep thinking about our goal is to get to
> draft not greatly expand the protocol. We can use *other* RFCs to expand 
the
> protocol. 
> 
> <\alert>
> 
> Cullen
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/25/05 5:07 AM, "Geoffrey M Clemm" <geoffrey.clemm@us.ibm.com> 
wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I agree with Julian on this.
> > 
> > Cheers, 
> > Geoff 
> > 
> > Julian wrote on 09/25/2005 04:04:46 AM:
> > 
> >> As far as I am concerned, the importance of a revised version of 
RFC2518
> >> is much higher than actually moving to Draft Standard, thus if we 
these
> >> two goals conflict (time, interop experience with changes introduced
> >> since RFC2518) we should IMHO sacrifice the latter one.
> > 
> > 
> 

--=_alternative 005D70E985257088_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"


<br><font size=2><tt>I agree completely with the contents of Cullen's big
red alert.</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Cheers,</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Geoff</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Cullen Jennings &lt;fluffy@cisco.com&gt; wrote on
09/26/2005 12:56:06 PM:<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Given the current state of collection of interop results and planning
for<br>
&gt; what needs to be collected, this sounds like the right path to me.
I'll take<br>
&gt; this as consensus unless I hear some objections.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &lt;big red alert warning&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Just because we are recycling at proposed, we should not use this
as an<br>
&gt; excuse to put more stuff in. Let's document what people are doing
and the<br>
&gt; key things they need and we will be that much closer to draft. If
there are<br>
&gt; parts no one uses or needs, we can take them out. From a what goes
in this<br>
&gt; document point of view, let's keep thinking about our goal is to get
to<br>
&gt; draft not greatly expand the protocol. We can use *other* RFCs to
expand the<br>
&gt; protocol. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &lt;\alert&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cullen<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On 9/25/05 5:07 AM, &quot;Geoffrey M Clemm&quot; &lt;geoffrey.clemm@us.ibm.com&gt;
wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; I agree with Julian on this.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Cheers, <br>
&gt; &gt; Geoff <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Julian wrote on 09/25/2005 04:04:46 AM:<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; As far as I am concerned, the importance of a revised version
of RFC2518<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; is much higher than actually moving to Draft Standard, thus
if we these<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; two goals conflict (time, interop experience with changes
introduced<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; since RFC2518) we should IMHO sacrifice the latter one.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
</tt></font>
--=_alternative 005D70E985257088_=--




From w3c-dist-auth-request@frink.w3.org Mon Sep 26 13:03:34 2005
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This document looks grossly under specified. I don't even know what mounting
means. It seems to lack many of the things you would need to make it useful
for mounting and unmounting removable storage. I suspect I don't understand
what the document is about. I would be very against the IETF publishing a
document that someone in the WG could not understand what it did.

Cullen <not as chair>


On 9/17/05 1:19 AM, "Julian Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I just submitted a new revision of the WebDAV mount spec. From the abstract:
> 
> 'This document specifies a mechanism and a document format that enables
> Web Distributed Authoring and Versioning (WebDAV) servers to send
> "mounting" information to a WebDAV client. The protocol is designed to
> work on any platform and with any combination of browser and WebDAV
> client, relying solely on the well-understood dispatch of documents
> through their MIME type.'
> 
> Since the first draft last month, this draft has been reviewed and
> implemented in two WebDAV clients (one of which is a reference
> implementation for the Microsoft Webfolder client, appearing as an
> appendix in the spec). It has also been implemented in the WebDAV stack
> of SAP Netweaver KM.
> 
> At this point I believe the spec is complete and I plan to submit it to
> the RFC Editor for publication as Informational RFC in three weeks.
> Feedback appreciated.
> 
> HTML version: 
> <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-mount-latest.html>
> 
> Best regards, Julian
> 
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: - Fri Sep 16 22:08:42 2005
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> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
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> Title  : Mounting WebDAV (Web Distributed Authoring and Versioning) servers
> Author(s) : J. Reschke
> Filename : draft-reschke-webdav-mount-01.txt
> Pages  : 14
> Date  : 2005-9-16
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> This document specifies a mechanism and a document format that
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>     send "mounting" information to a WebDAV client.  The protocol is
>     designed to work on any platform and with any combination of browser
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> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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From w3c-dist-auth-request@frink.w3.org Mon Sep 26 13:11:53 2005
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From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: WebDav <w3c-dist-auth@w3.org>
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Lisa, can you weigh in on how you want to track the issues that we have
clear consensus on. If you want to use both
>> <http://www.webdav.org/wg/rfcdev/issues.htm> and
>> <http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=WebDAV-RFC2518-bi
I can cope with that, thought it seems like having one would be better than
two.



On 8/23/05 1:52 PM, "Elias Sinderson" <elias@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote:

> 
> Julian Reschke wrote:
> 
>> [...] So can we please consider the union of
>> <http://www.webdav.org/wg/rfcdev/issues.htm> and
>> <http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=WebDAV-RFC2518-bi
>> s> 
>> as current issues list?
> 
> I would think this to be a reasonable starting point for the upcoming
> efforts.
> 
> Re: Bugzilla, are we intending to continue tracking issues on the
> bugzilla installation? I would be in favor of this for a number of
> reasons that I'll skip over here. (I'll happily enumerate them if asked,
> but one should think they them to be rather self-evident and well
> understood.) Assuming all are in favor of this approach, someone will
> need to take on the task of importing the issues listed on the
> webdav.org site into bugzilla. . .
> 
> For historical and other reasons it would be desireable to import all of
> the issues listed, although a certain amount of pragmatism would dictate
> that closed issues could be safely omitted. At the very least, an email
> should be sent to the mailing list with a summary of the already closed
> issues as detailed within the webdav.org list.
> 
> Following the import into bugzilla, it would seem straightforward to go
> through them one-by-one in seperate threads.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Elias




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Cullen Jennings wrote:
> 
> This document looks grossly under specified. I don't even know what mounting
> means. It seems to lack many of the things you would need to make it useful
> for mounting and unmounting removable storage. I suspect I don't understand
> what the document is about. I would be very against the IETF publishing a
> document that someone in the WG could not understand what it did.
> 
> Cullen <not as chair>

Fair enough.

Several implementors had no trouble with it, but they knew beforehand 
what it was about. So it seems likely the introduction needs to be improved.

When the spec says "mounting", it means what the Intro says...:

"By definition, a WebDAV server ([RFC2518]) is an HTTP server as well 
([RFC2616]). Most WebDAV servers can be (at least partly) operated from 
an HTML-based user interface in a web browser. However, it is frequently 
desirable to be able to switch from an HTML-based view to a presentation 
provided by a native WebDAV client, directly supporting the authoring 
features defined in WebDAV and related specifications."

If it would go on saying that the in the context of this spec, 
"mounting" means exactly this ("switching to a presentation provided by 
a native WebDAV client"), would that make things clearer?

Best regards, Julian




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We have a long list of stuff in
>> <http://www.webdav.org/wg/rfcdev/issues.htm> and
>> <http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=WebDAV-RFC2518-bi
Some of this we agree on, some not, and such.

Here is what I need from everyone in the group. I need the list of issues of
things that need to change from the text that is currently in
draft-ietf-webdav-rfc2518bis-07 - I only need the issues we are having a
hard time agreeing on. Once we have a list, we can start a thread on each
one and solve them. If it is an issue that you would have a slight
preference for A but could live with B, say that.

I like to have a reasonable date for completion of this list and after that
date we do our best not to add new issues that have not previously been
brought up. Ideas on what a good date for this is?

Thanks, Cullen

I have tried generating this list from the two links above but I can't. Some
people feel things have been closed that should be open.






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Sounds good, I'm not seeing any objection to this plan so let me know when
you have it ready.

On 8/21/05 10:28 PM, "Julian Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:

> Cullen Jennings wrote:
>> ...
>> I'd like to get the WG feedback about moving this forward as "Experimental".
>> Note that this would not stop this approach from becoming standards track it
>> it became clear over time that it was the approach that the community wanted
>> to recommend for solving this problem.
> 
> I think that would be the right approach. However, before proceeding,
> I'd like to fix the Depth header vs Apply-To-Redirect-Ref issue that
> Jake B. reported (trying to get this done this week).
> 
> Best regards, Julian




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Cullen Jennings wrote:
> 
> This document looks grossly under specified. I don't even know what mounting
> means. It seems to lack many of the things you would need to make it useful
> for mounting and unmounting removable storage. I suspect I don't understand
> what the document is about. I would be very against the IETF publishing a
> document that someone in the WG could not understand what it did.
> 
> Cullen <not as chair>

Cullen,

when you say "it seems to lack many of the things you would need to make 
it useful for mounting and unmounting removable storage", could you 
please be a bit more specific?

WebDAV clients come in many flavors, such as

- filesystem drives (Xythos, Microsoft XP-Redirector, Unix/Linux fs 
drives such as the one in MacOSX)
- shell extensions (like Microsoft's Webfolder client)
- browser extensions (I think KDE#s webdav "URI" support falls into this 
category)

The aim of this document was to have a platform- and client-agnostic way 
for a server to let the client's system know that a specific WebDAV URL 
should be accessed, and that collection itself (or a descendant of it) 
should be displayed.

What may be looking like missing features was a deliberate decision to 
start with the simplest-possible format that solves the problem. That it 
*is* a problem IMHO shows that the market already has come up with a set 
of different approaches (see 
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-mount-latest.html#alternative.approaches>), 
none of which is portable.

Additional information for specific clients (such as a proposed "mount 
point" for Unix FS clients) can then be added by extending the XML 
format (potentially using a different namespace). But right now I'd 
really like to stick with the subset that is relevant for every client.

Best regards, Julian




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I somewhat agree with Cullen here, in that the meaning of "mount" is  
somewhat ambiguous.

Some thoughts on how to improve the introduction:

* Add a discussion of the problem this specification is aiming to  
solve. Something like:

"In current Web browsers, there is no uniform way to specify that a  
user clicking on a link will be presented with an editable view of a  
WebDAV server. For example, it is frequently desirable to be able to  
click on a link, and have this link open a window that can handle  
drag and drop interaction with the resources of a WebDAV server."

* It might also be useful to give one or more concrete scenarios of  
use of this protocol. Something like, "For example, many educational  
institutions use WebDAV servers as a mechanism for sharing documents  
among students. Each student owns a separate collection structure on  
a WebDAV server, often called their "locker". Ideally, when a user  
clicks on a link in an HTML page provided by the university (perhaps  
by their university Web portal), an editable view of their locker  
will appear."

--------

In its current form, the document seems to focus too much on  
something like Web Folders as the intended client. However, it could  
be very powerful to have an "edit this page" button that either:

- launches a WebDAV-enabled HTML editor (such as GoLive, Dreamweaver,  
or Contribute) on the exact page to be edited
- mounts the WebDAV location (e.g., using the mounting mechanism on  
the Mac, the drive mapping on the PC, etc.) and then fire up a text  
editor or HTML editor on a specific file

Supporting these scenarios would require a bit more mechanism in the  
protocol than is currently present. For example, dm:open is specified  
as a collection -- there is no way to specify the exact resource URL  
to be opened for editing.

--------

Finally, Julian writes:

> WebDAV clients come in many flavors, such as
>
> - filesystem drives (Xythos, Microsoft XP-Redirector, Unix/Linux fs  
> drives such as the one in MacOSX)
> - shell extensions (like Microsoft's Webfolder client)
> - browser extensions (I think KDE#s webdav "URI" support falls into  
> this category)
>
> The aim of this document was to have a platform- and client- 
> agnostic way for a server to let the client's system know that a  
> specific WebDAV URL should be accessed, and that collection itself  
> (or a descendant of it) should be displayed.

It would be nice if the document itself said this.

- Jim




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>
>  - I've been hunting around for interoperability documentation --  
> because we did do two interop tests -- but we don't seem to have  
> that available now (perhaps it was not intended to be public  
> outside the interops anyway).  We never did get somebody to  
> volunteer to collect interop data or format that for the IESG  
> (http://www.ietf.org/IESG/Implementations/).
>

IMO, I don't think it would be too difficult to gather  
interoperability information for most WebDAV features. There are many  
existing WebDAV clients and servers that are readily available, and  
it would only take a few days to run a few combinations through their  
paces with a packet sniffer running.

- Jim
--Apple-Mail-1--874584882
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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN>- =
I've been hunting around for interoperability documentation -- because =
we did do two interop tests -- but we don't seem to have that available =
now (perhaps it was not intended to be public outside the interops =
anyway).<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>We never did =
get somebody to volunteer to collect interop data or format that for the =
IESG (<A =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/IESG/Implementations/">http://www.ietf.org/IES=
G/Implementations/</A>).</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: =
14px; "><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#0000DD"><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT><DIV><FONT =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#0000DD">IMO, I don't think it would =
be too difficult to gather interoperability information for most WebDAV =
features. There are many existing WebDAV clients and servers that are =
readily available, and it would only take a few days to run a few =
combinations through their paces with a packet sniffer =
running.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#0000DD"><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#0000DD">- =
Jim</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>=

--Apple-Mail-1--874584882--




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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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On 9/26/05 10:41 AM, "Jim Whitehead" <ejw@soe.ucsc.edu> wrote:

>>=20
>> =A0- I've been hunting around for interoperability documentation -- becaus=
e we
>> did do two interop tests -- but we don't seem to have that available now
>> (perhaps it was not intended to be public outside the interops anyway).=A0=
 We
>> never did get somebody to volunteer to collect interop data or format th=
at
>> for the IESG (http://www.ietf.org/IESG/Implementations/).
>>=20
>=20
> IMO, I don't think it would be too difficult to gather interoperability
> information for most WebDAV features. There are many existing WebDAV clie=
nts
> and servers that are readily available, and it would only take a few days=
 to
> run a few combinations through their paces with a packet sniffer running.
>=20
> - Jim
>=20

Should we start making a document or check list of all the features we need=
s
to check and then a list of which clients and servers have a hope of
supporting each of those features so we can try and get a feel of it we can
do this?

Cullen


--B_3210576724_5687075
Content-type: text/html;
	charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: RFC2518bis (process)</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>On 9/=
26/05 10:41 AM, &quot;Jim Whitehead&quot; &lt;ejw@soe.ucsc.edu&gt; wrote:<BR=
>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial=
"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
=A0- I've been hunting around for interoperability documentation -- because w=
e did do two interop tests -- but we don't seem to have that available now (=
perhaps it was not intended to be public outside the interops anyway).=A0 We n=
ever did get somebody to volunteer to collect interop data or format that fo=
r the IESG (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/IESG/Implementations/).">http://www=
.ietf.org/IESG/Implementations/).</a><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000DD"><BR>
IMO, I don't think it would be too difficult to gather interoperability inf=
ormation for most WebDAV features. There are many existing WebDAV clients an=
d servers that are readily available, and it would only take a few days to r=
un a few combinations through their paces with a packet sniffer running.<BR>
<BR>
- Jim<BR>
</FONT><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
Should we start making a document or check list of all the features we need=
s to check and then a list of which clients and servers have a hope of suppo=
rting each of those features so we can try and get a feel of it we can do th=
is?<BR>
<BR>
Cullen<BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3210576724_5687075--




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On 9/26/05 10:00 AM, "Julian Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:

> 
> The only reason why I entered them in BugZilla was that I was told to :-)

I look back over the email logs and don't know if I should laugh or cry.
We've gone left, we've gone right, and all along people have more or less
said "sure if that gets the work done". I'm sure I'll screw up a few times
and end up doing 180 degree turns.

Anyways, thanks to everyone for coping with this. The fact that there are a
few key people that keep pushing stuff forward even with all the frustration
is certainly a key part of the group not being closed down. (And Julian I
think you win the award for quickest replies in the IETF)

Cullen




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On 9/26/05 10:00 AM, "Julian Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:

> 
> I absolutely agree that issues need to be reported and discussed here.
> As a matter of fact all the issues I raised *have* been reported here,
> for instance in...:
> 
> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/2004JulSep/0153.html>
> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/2004JulSep/0154.html>
> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/2004JulSep/0156.html>

Agreed, I just can't make heads or tails of if any given issues is
1) solved and in documents
2) solved and agreed but has not been put in bis yet
3) not solved but not a big deal, one or two people who care will work it
out
4) big hairy issue that the WG needs to figure out what they are going to
do.

I need help to find out what things are #4.




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Jim Whitehead wrote:
> 
> I somewhat agree with Cullen here, in that the meaning of "mount" is 
> somewhat ambiguous.
> 
> Some thoughts on how to improve the introduction:
> 
> * Add a discussion of the problem this specification is aiming to solve. 
> Something like:
> 
> "In current Web browsers, there is no uniform way to specify that a user 
> clicking on a link will be presented with an editable view of a WebDAV 
> server. For example, it is frequently desirable to be able to click on a 
> link, and have this link open a window that can handle drag and drop 
> interaction with the resources of a WebDAV server."

Noted. I'll try to incorporate that.

> * It might also be useful to give one or more concrete scenarios of use 
> of this protocol. Something like, "For example, many educational 
> institutions use WebDAV servers as a mechanism for sharing documents 
> among students. Each student owns a separate collection structure on a 
> WebDAV server, often called their "locker". Ideally, when a user clicks 
> on a link in an HTML page provided by the university (perhaps by their 
> university Web portal), an editable view of their locker will appear."
> 
> --------
> 
> In its current form, the document seems to focus too much on something 
> like Web Folders as the intended client. However, it could be very 
> powerful to have an "edit this page" button that either:
> 
> - launches a WebDAV-enabled HTML editor (such as GoLive, Dreamweaver, or 
> Contribute) on the exact page to be edited
> - mounts the WebDAV location (e.g., using the mounting mechanism on the 
> Mac, the drive mapping on the PC, etc.) and then fire up a text editor 
> or HTML editor on a specific file

Funny enough, supporting the Webfolder client actually was an 
afterthought, and both other current client implementations fall into 
the filesystem category.

And, as a matter of fact, both implementors asked for the ability to 
also <open> files, so that they can be directly edited.

The problem here is a security risk, mentioned in 
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-mount-latest.html#security.considerations>: 
if a client just maps the WebDAV server to a filesystem, and translates 
<open> requests into whatever the system's shell does on double-click, 
this introduces a huge security hole: a malevolent could simply send a 
<open> request for an executable file, and the client would then 
potentially open (= execute) it without any additional confirmation by 
the user.

I'm not saying that this issue can't be dealt with, but at this stage I 
preferred to err on the side of security. If people feel the spec should 
allow <open> on non-collection, please try to come up with a spec text 
that can address this concern.

> Supporting these scenarios would require a bit more mechanism in the 
> protocol than is currently present. For example, dm:open is specified as 
> a collection -- there is no way to specify the exact resource URL to be 
> opened for editing.

Yep, on purpose.

> --------
> 
> Finally, Julian writes:
> 
>> WebDAV clients come in many flavors, such as
>>
>> - filesystem drives (Xythos, Microsoft XP-Redirector, Unix/Linux fs 
>> drives such as the one in MacOSX)
>> - shell extensions (like Microsoft's Webfolder client)
>> - browser extensions (I think KDE#s webdav "URI" support falls into 
>> this category)
>>
>> The aim of this document was to have a platform- and client-agnostic 
>> way for a server to let the client's system know that a specific 
>> WebDAV URL should be accessed, and that collection itself (or a 
>> descendant of it) should be displayed.
> 
> It would be nice if the document itself said this.

I thought the combination of Abstract and Introduction already do that, 
but I'll try to improve them.


Best regards, Julian





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Julian's document covers that in the Security Considerations section  
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-mount- 
latest.html#security.considerations>. Opening documents from a web  
page just by clicking on them is dangerous from a security standpoint  
-- displaying the contents of a collection is not dangerous.

- Jim

On Sep 26, 2005, at 10:38 AM, Jim Whitehead wrote:

> In its current form, the document seems to focus too much on  
> something like Web Folders as the intended client. However, it  
> could be very powerful to have an "edit this page" button that either:
>
> - launches a WebDAV-enabled HTML editor (such as GoLive,  
> Dreamweaver, or Contribute) on the exact page to be edited
> - mounts the WebDAV location (e.g., using the mounting mechanism on  
> the Mac, the drive mapping on the PC, etc.) and then fire up a text  
> editor or HTML editor on a specific file
>
> Supporting these scenarios would require a bit more mechanism in  
> the protocol than is currently present. For example, dm:open is  
> specified as a collection -- there is no way to specify the exact  
> resource URL to be opened for editing.





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I can't edit issues.htm.  I can move it to  
http://ietf.webdav.org/webdav and edit it from there, which I think I  
would prefer.  That is, if people want the main editor to be the same  
person to track issues.  I find it to be useful to have the person who  
tracks issues not to be the person who proposes to close them -- the  
same principle behind which in many development teams, the developer  
who resolves the bug "fixed" is not allowed to resolve the bug  
"verified".

Note that I've tracked a bunch of issues separately in a Word document.  
  This is a big document because it tracks not only every change made to  
RFC2518 but also why -- it was intended to link issues together with  
what changes were made in an attempt to resolve the issue.
http://ietf.webdav.org/webdav/rfc2518bis/RFC2518%20Changes.doc

If people are OK with me tracking issues, then I propose to move the  
issues table to the same location and edit it myself.

lisa

On Sep 26, 2005, at 10:10 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:

>
>
> Lisa, can you weigh in on how you want to track the issues that we have
> clear consensus on. If you want to use both
>>> <http://www.webdav.org/wg/rfcdev/issues.htm> and
>>> <http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=WebDAV- 
>>> RFC2518-bi
> I can cope with that, thought it seems like having one would be better  
> than
> two.
>
>
>
> On 8/23/05 1:52 PM, "Elias Sinderson" <elias@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>> Julian Reschke wrote:
>>
>>> [...] So can we please consider the union of
>>> <http://www.webdav.org/wg/rfcdev/issues.htm> and
>>> <http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=WebDAV- 
>>> RFC2518-bi
>>> s>
>>> as current issues list?
>>
>> I would think this to be a reasonable starting point for the upcoming
>> efforts.
>>
>> Re: Bugzilla, are we intending to continue tracking issues on the
>> bugzilla installation? I would be in favor of this for a number of
>> reasons that I'll skip over here. (I'll happily enumerate them if  
>> asked,
>> but one should think they them to be rather self-evident and well
>> understood.) Assuming all are in favor of this approach, someone will
>> need to take on the task of importing the issues listed on the
>> webdav.org site into bugzilla. . .
>>
>> For historical and other reasons it would be desireable to import all  
>> of
>> the issues listed, although a certain amount of pragmatism would  
>> dictate
>> that closed issues could be safely omitted. At the very least, an  
>> email
>> should be sent to the mailing list with a summary of the already  
>> closed
>> issues as detailed within the webdav.org list.
>>
>> Following the import into bugzilla, it would seem straightforward to  
>> go
>> through them one-by-one in seperate threads.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Elias
>





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I am coming in late in the game and don't want to step on too many old land
mines. As long as we have some viable plan on how to resolve and that the
issues I as chair need to drive home are clearly outlined to me on list,
then I'm good with anything.
 

On 9/26/05 12:07 PM, "Lisa Dusseault" <lisa@osafoundation.org> wrote:

> I can't edit issues.htm.  I can move it to
> http://ietf.webdav.org/webdav and edit it from there, which I think I
> would prefer.  That is, if people want the main editor to be the same
> person to track issues.  I find it to be useful to have the person who
> tracks issues not to be the person who proposes to close them -- the
> same principle behind which in many development teams, the developer
> who resolves the bug "fixed" is not allowed to resolve the bug
> "verified".
> 
> Note that I've tracked a bunch of issues separately in a Word document.
>   This is a big document because it tracks not only every change made to
> RFC2518 but also why -- it was intended to link issues together with
> what changes were made in an attempt to resolve the issue.
> http://ietf.webdav.org/webdav/rfc2518bis/RFC2518%20Changes.doc
> 
> If people are OK with me tracking issues, then I propose to move the
> issues table to the same location and edit it myself.
> 
> lisa
> 
> On Sep 26, 2005, at 10:10 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Lisa, can you weigh in on how you want to track the issues that we have
>> clear consensus on. If you want to use both
>>>> <http://www.webdav.org/wg/rfcdev/issues.htm> and
>>>> <http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=WebDAV-
>>>> RFC2518-bi
>> I can cope with that, thought it seems like having one would be better
>> than
>> two.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/23/05 1:52 PM, "Elias Sinderson" <elias@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Julian Reschke wrote:
>>> 
>>>> [...] So can we please consider the union of
>>>> <http://www.webdav.org/wg/rfcdev/issues.htm> and
>>>> <http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=WebDAV-
>>>> RFC2518-bi
>>>> s>
>>>> as current issues list?
>>> 
>>> I would think this to be a reasonable starting point for the upcoming
>>> efforts.
>>> 
>>> Re: Bugzilla, are we intending to continue tracking issues on the
>>> bugzilla installation? I would be in favor of this for a number of
>>> reasons that I'll skip over here. (I'll happily enumerate them if
>>> asked,
>>> but one should think they them to be rather self-evident and well
>>> understood.) Assuming all are in favor of this approach, someone will
>>> need to take on the task of importing the issues listed on the
>>> webdav.org site into bugzilla. . .
>>> 
>>> For historical and other reasons it would be desireable to import all
>>> of
>>> the issues listed, although a certain amount of pragmatism would
>>> dictate
>>> that closed issues could be safely omitted. At the very least, an
>>> email
>>> should be sent to the mailing list with a summary of the already
>>> closed
>>> issues as detailed within the webdav.org list.
>>> 
>>> Following the import into bugzilla, it would seem straightforward to
>>> go
>>> through them one-by-one in seperate threads.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Elias
>> 




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--Apple-Mail-3--866839390
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> Funny enough, supporting the Webfolder client actually was an  
> afterthought, and both other current client implementations fall  
> into the filesystem category.
>
> And, as a matter of fact, both implementors asked for the ability  
> to also <open> files, so that they can be directly edited.
>
> The problem here is a security risk, mentioned in <http:// 
> greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-mount- 
> latest.html#security.considerations>: if a client just maps the  
> WebDAV server to a filesystem, and translates <open> requests into  
> whatever the system's shell does on double-click, this introduces a  
> huge security hole: a malevolent could simply send a <open> request  
> for an executable file, and the client would then potentially open  
> (= execute) it without any additional confirmation by the user.
>
> I'm not saying that this issue can't be dealt with, but at this  
> stage I preferred to err on the side of security. If people feel  
> the spec should allow <open> on non-collection, please try to come  
> up with a spec text that can address this concern.

I dunno -- it doesn't seem reasonable that the default mapping of GET  
to an executable resource would be to execute a binary. For example,  
this isn't the case with Apache.

- Jim
--Apple-Mail-3--866839390
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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Funny enough, supporting the =
Webfolder client actually was an afterthought, and both other current =
client implementations fall into the filesystem category.</DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">And, as =
a matter of fact, both implementors asked for the ability to also =
&lt;open&gt; files, so that they can be directly edited.</DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The =
problem here is a security risk, mentioned in &lt;<A =
href=3D"http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-mount-latest=
.html#security.considerations">http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-resc=
hke-webdav-mount-latest.html#security.considerations</A>&gt;: if a =
client just maps the WebDAV server to a filesystem, and translates =
&lt;open&gt; requests into whatever the system's shell does on =
double-click, this introduces a huge security hole: a malevolent could =
simply send a &lt;open&gt; request for an executable file, and the =
client would then potentially open (=3D execute) it without any =
additional confirmation by the user.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: =
14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I'm not saying that this issue =
can't be dealt with, but at this stage I preferred to err on the side of =
security. If people feel the spec should allow &lt;open&gt; on =
non-collection, please try to come up with a spec text that can address =
this concern.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#0000DD"><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT><DIV><FONT =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#0000DD">I dunno -- it doesn't seem =
reasonable that the default mapping of GET to an executable resource =
would be to execute a binary. For example, this isn't the case with =
Apache.=A0</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#0000DD"><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#0000DD">- =
Jim</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>=

--Apple-Mail-3--866839390--




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Jim Whitehead wrote:
> I dunno -- it doesn't seem reasonable that the default mapping of GET to 
> an executable resource would be to execute a binary. For example, this 
> isn't the case with Apache. 

Well, there's no default mapping once the WebDAV resource is exposed 
through a file system API. Take the Xythos (Windows) client as an 
example: there's nothing it can do to prevent this; callers to the OS 
won't see anything except filename, a few flags and the binary content. 
What happens upon opening the document will completely depend on what 
the opening application (Explorer?) thinks it is.

I'm not saying that these concerns can't be adressed, but it will 
certainly be hard to specify properly.

Best regards, Julian







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Lisa Dusseault wrote:
> 
> I can't edit issues.htm.  I can move it to http://ietf.webdav.org/webdav 
> and edit it from there, which I think I would prefer.  That is, if 

Whatever works for you (you probably could get a password from Greg 
Stein for that part of www.webdav.org; my one doesn't work either).

> people want the main editor to be the same person to track issues.  I 
> find it to be useful to have the person who tracks issues not to be the 
> person who proposes to close them -- the same principle behind which in 
> many development teams, the developer who resolves the bug "fixed" is 
> not allowed to resolve the bug "verified".

Agreed.

> Note that I've tracked a bunch of issues separately in a Word document. 
>  This is a big document because it tracks not only every change made to 
> RFC2518 but also why -- it was intended to link issues together with 
> what changes were made in an attempt to resolve the issue.
> http://ietf.webdav.org/webdav/rfc2518bis/RFC2518%20Changes.doc
> 
> If people are OK with me tracking issues, then I propose to move the 
> issues table to the same location and edit it myself.

i) Any volunteers for the issue tracking besides Lisa?

ii) Format: whatever works. I personally prefer formats that I can link 
to (so each issue has a stable URI), such as BugZilla URLs or anchors in 
(X)HTML documents.


Best regards, Julian




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OK,

I have updated 
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-mount-latest.html>, 
shamelessly stealing text from JimW's suggestions.

The abstract now says:

Abstract

    In current Web browsers, there is no uniform way to specify that a
    user clicking on a link will be presented with an editable view of a
    WebDAV server.  For example, it is frequently desirable to be able to
    click on a link, and have this link open a window that can handle
    drag and drop interaction with the resources of a WebDAV server.

    This document specifies a mechanism and a document format that
    enables Web Distributed Authoring and Versioning (WebDAV) servers to
    send "mounting" information to a WebDAV client.  The protocol is
    designed to work on any platform and with any combination of browser
    and WebDAV client, relying solely on the well-understood dispatch of
    documents through their MIME type.

The introduction was expanded to say:

1.  Introduction

    By definition, a WebDAV server ([RFC2518]) is an HTTP server as well
    ([RFC2616]).  Most WebDAV servers can be (at least partly) operated
    from an HTML-based user interface in a web browser.  However, it is
    frequently desirable to be able to switch from an HTML-based view to
    a presentation provided by a native WebDAV client, directly
    supporting the authoring features defined in WebDAV and related
    specifications.

    For example, many educational institutions use WebDAV servers as a
    mechanism for sharing documents among students.  Each student owns a
    separate collection structure on a WebDAV server, often called their
    "locker".  Ideally, when a user clicks on a link in an HTML page
    provided by the university (perhaps by their university Web portal),
    an editable view of their locker will appear.

    For completeness, Appendix A lists other approaches that have been
    implemented in existing clients.


The description of dm:open now forward references the Security 
Considerations:

3.3  dm:open

    The optional <dm:open> element instructs the client to display the
    specified child collection; it's URL is computed by concatenating
    this element's value with the URL obtained from the <dm:url>
    (Section 3.2) element (see Section 7 for a discussion about why this
    element only supports displaying collections rather than opening
    arbitrary documents).

which in turn now say:

7.  Security Considerations

    All security considerations connected to HTTP/WebDAV and XML apply
    for this specification as well, namely [RFC2518] (Section 17) and
    [RFC3470] (Section 7).

    In addition, client implementers must be careful when implementing
    the <dm:open> element (see Section 3.3).  It MUST NOT be used to
    initiate any action beyond displaying the contents of a WebDAV
    collection (supporting "opening" documents could be abused to trick a
    user into letting the operating system's shell execute arbitrary
    content, possibly running it as an executable program).

Feedback appreciated,

Julian






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Talking with various potential CalDAV deployers lately, there's a 
perceived need for better HTTP authentication mechanisms: ones which 
can deal with federated identity and single sign-on.  I've also heard 
people respond "what's the problem? Put an authentication proxy in the 
proxy path" or suggest HTTP-SASL or a number of other possible 
solutions to possible problems.

So, we probably need first to discuss whether there is a problem, and 
if so, what to do about it.  There's been a suggestion to hold a BOF in 
Vancouver (if it's not too late to plan one) to see who the interested 
parties are and start defining (or defining away) the problem.  Another 
idea is to hold a workshop at some point after we've identified the 
interested parties.

Anyway, I've started a separate discussion list for this topic-- I 
didn't want to spam the general HTTP list or make people who weren't 
interested in general HTTP issues (but only in authentication for 
CalDAV/WebDAV) join that list.  Please join and chime in any time about 
what you perceive the problem or lack of problem to be or leap straight 
to what ought to be done.

http://lists.osafoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ietf-http-auth

Lisa





