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On 30.08.2010 20:08, David Nuescheler wrote:
> Hi Julian,
>
> thanks for the additional color.
>
> Let me chime in on one aspect...
>
>>> I think in JCR we went all out and in my mind went too far with
>>> binaries. I think I would be happy with having a single optional
>>> binary stream.
>>> More importantly though since this is about fine-grained information
>>> the typical case will be having "no" binary at all, but just a tree of
>>> properties (and "nodes?").
>> Would a zero length content work as well?
>
> Well, personally, I would rather avoid that route.
>
> I thought about this from various different aspects and while it of
> course works from an implementation and usage standpoint I would argue
> that it sets the wrong expectation and targets the wrong use cases.
>
> In my mind the general case is that the "nodes" (or the lack of a
> better term) do not have a "binary stream" associated, and in
> exceptional cases they do. I see the fine-grained nature more similar
> to rows of a table in relational database.
> So in my mind it is important to identify the "binary content" as the
> special case and make sure that the "binary content-less" concept is
> treated as the general case, and not the other way around.
>
> I realize that this is just a matter of setting the perception
> correctly but that's precisely why would like to be careful ;)
> ...

Understood.

I think once we have defined addressing we'll have to get back to this 
question -- if a node gets a URI we'll have to answer what its GETtable 
representation will be...

Best regards, Julian


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			Bodies were left unbarried until November 1949.<br>
			Answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".<br>
			In the colonial period, policing was provided by elected sheriffs and local militias.<br>
			Archived from the original on September 21, 2009.<br>
			<img alt="" src="http://in.and.com/Near/Union.gif" style="border-width: 0px">
			Therefore, the proposed models are not mutually exclusive, and this underscores the fact that facial processing does not impose any new constraints on the brain other than those used for other stimuli.<br>
			Later it slowly made its way around England.<br>
			Chinese Football Association Golden Boot awardee.<br>
			<img alt="" src="http://website.and.com/Microscopy/NJ.gif" style="border-width: 0px">
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			City of Salzburg, a UNESCO World Heritage Site.<br>
			Joey uses sex to get his landlady to reduce his rent, then seduces Sally Todd (Miles), a former Hollywood starlet.<br>
			A b c France Diplomatie, French music has the whole planet singing, June 2009.<br>
			With AOL clients swarming Usenet newsgroups, the old, existing user base started to develop a strong distaste for both AOL and its clients, referring to the new state of affairs as Eternal September.<br>
			<img alt="" src="http://authorized.referring.com/observations/Breakwater.gif" style="border-width: 0px">
			Dubey V, Bhalla R, Luthra R (2003).<br>
			An important workshop on March 1, 2000, brought the Timorese and UN leadership group together to tease out a revised strategy, and identify institutional needs.<br>
			Sergent J, Ohta S, MacDonald B (February 1992).<br>
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(FYI)

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RFC 5995 on Using POST to Add Members to Web Distributed 
Authoring	and Versioning (WebDAV) Collections
Date: Tue,  7 Sep 2010 09:24:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org
CC: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org


A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.


         RFC 5995

         Title:      Using POST to Add Members
                     to Web Distributed Authoring and Versioning
                     (WebDAV) Collections
         Author:     J. Reschke
         Status:     Standards Track
         Stream:     IETF
         Date:       September 2010
         Mailbox:    julian.reschke@greenbytes.de
         Pages:      12
         Characters: 21591
         Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

         I-D Tag:    draft-reschke-webdav-post-08.txt

         URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5995.txt

The Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) Extensions for the Web
Distributed Authoring and Versioning (WebDAV) do not define the
behavior for the "POST" method when applied to collections, as the
base specification (HTTP) leaves implementers lots of freedom for the
semantics of "POST".

This has led to a situation where many WebDAV servers do not
implement POST for collections at all, although it is well suited to
be used for the purpose of adding new members to a collection, where
the server remains in control of the newly assigned URL.  In fact,
the Atom Publishing Protocol (AtomPub) uses POST exactly for that
purpose.  On the other hand, WebDAV-based protocols, such as the
Calendaring Extensions to WebDAV (CalDAV), frequently require clients
to pick a unique URL, although the server could easily perform that
task.

This specification defines a discovery mechanism through which
servers can advertise support for POST requests with the
aforementioned "add collection member" semantics.  [STANDARDS TRACK]

This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track
protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements.  Please refer to the current edition of the Internet
Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and
status of this protocol.  Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

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From: David Nuescheler <david@day.com>
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> If ordering of collection members is relevant, then mapping to a Javascript
> array (instead of object) is probably required:
sigh... i know... unfortunately...

regards,
david


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On 29.08.2010 21:05, David Nuescheler wrote:
> ...
>> 1.4 Ordering: optional features in WebDAV and JCR.
> I think this is more important for fine-grained content since when we
> talk about DOM-like structures that are persisted on the server of
> course the sort order makes a big difference. (As a side comment:
> mapping things to JSON in the back of my mind creates a bit of tension
> here, since sort-order of JSON object is undefined, while all
> implementations in browsers keep the sort-order, technically a JSON
> parser is not obligated to do that...)
> ...

If ordering of collection members is relevant, then mapping to a 
Javascript array (instead of object) is probably required:

    An object is an unordered collection of zero or more name/value
    pairs, where a name is a string and a value is a string, number,
    boolean, null, object, or array.

(<http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4627#section-1>)

Best regards, Julian


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Hi,

going back to my notes and David's feedback, we seem to be very close to 
use a profile of the WebDAV data model:

> 1. Collections
>
> 1.1 Hierarchy: WebDAV collections are hierarchical. A "direct" member of a
> collection has the parent collection's URI + one additional path segment. JCR:
> same. This also means that relative paths do the obvious thing. CMIS/AtomPub:
> no constraints on the paths (AFAIU).

-> WebDAV model (hierarchical collection matching HTTP URI path syntax).

> 1.2 Multiple containment: allowed in WebDAV through multiple bindings, in JCR
> through shared nodes. CMIS/AtomPub: not constrained anyway.

Not now.

> 1.3 Identification: WebDAV: the name of a resource within a collection is a
> unique identifier. JCR: same (except that for same-name-siblings, the array
> index may change when siblings are removed/inserted).

-> WebDAV model (where index notation would be used if we want same-name 
siblings)

> 1.4 Ordering: optional features in WebDAV and JCR.

-> WebDAV model (RFC 3648)

> 1.5 Member naming: in WebDAV by path segment (URI syntax), in JCR per optional
> namespace name + path segment.
>
> 1.6 Name encoding: in WebDAV per spec ASCII (+ URI percent encoding), in JCR
> Unicode. URI syntax requires defining the character encoding for interoperability.

-> WebDAV, with a constraint that percent-encoded stuff needs to be NFC 
UTF-8; alternatively use Unicode (NFC?) and define the mapping to path 
segment when mapping to a URI.

> 2. Properties
>
> 2.1 Cardinality: properties can only occur once on a resource, but there are
> ways to express lists (WebDAV, JCR)

-> WebDAV model

! This will make it tricky to map from/to RDF. Just saying.

> 2.2 Typing: optional in WebDAV (see RFC 4316). Set of predefined types in JCR
> (int, float, string, date, URI, ...)

-> WebDAV model, augmented with bits from RFC 4316, and restricting some 
forms (such as mixed XML content)

Open question: do we want types not directly available in JSON, such as 
links?

> 2.3 Naming: namespace name + local name (WebDAV, JCR)

This will require some work; expanded names may be a bit heavy-weight; 
more feedback appreciated.

> 3. Content
>
> 3.1 A single binary stream per HTTP in WebDAV (ignoring content negotiation for
> now which is tricky in authoring); modeled as binary property in JCR (with only
> conventions on naming)

I think we have agreement that content *is* special and should not be 
shoved into a property. It's not entirely clear whether we need to model 
resources without content, and, if we do so, how we expose them over HTTP.

Best regards, Julian


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On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:57 AM, David Nuescheler <david@day.com> wrote:
>> If ordering of collection members is relevant, then mapping to a Javascript
>> array (instead of object) is probably required:
> sigh... i know... unfortunately...

Too bad this results in overly verbose data structures and annoyingly
complex iteration code.

Justin

>
> regards,
> david
>
>



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			Another Rashtrakuta family ruling from Manapur in Malwa region with its founder King Abhimanyu had the emblem of a lion.<br>
			Complete Similar to the description of a "balanced wine" but more encompassing a wine that all the main components-acidity, alcohol, fruit and tannins-in long along with a pleasing mouthfeel and long finish.<br>
			Official referees appear for the first time in a football match, at a match held in Cheltenham in 1849, two in field and one in tribune.<br>
			Consequently a clause was included in the Parliament Act 1911 finally introducing salaries for MPs.<br>
			<img alt="" src="http://in.of.com/leads/and.gif" style="border-width: 0px">
			The Number of Games Played in the 1968 World Cup.<br>
			Also in August 2008, about 36 editorial employees took voluntary buyouts or resigned, including well-known bylines like Michael Tackett, Ron Silverman, Timothy McNulty, Ed Sherman, Evan Osnos, Steve Franklin, Maurice Possley, Hanke Gratteau, Chuck Osgood and Skip Myslenski.<br>
			The History of Sacred Places in India as Reflected in Traditional Literature.<br>
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			Afterwards, the building was used for church services again.<br>
			Just as there is disagreement over what logic is about, so there is disagreement about what logical truths there are.<br>
			Judge Richard Posner of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit debated the issue of animal rights with Peter Singer on Slate.<br>
			In the city the population was spread out with 30.<br>
			For other uses, see Logic (disambiguation).<br>
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			The railway network in the state is minimal.<br>
			Frauenfriedenskirche, consecrated 1929, example of early modernist church building.<br>
			Although rarely rivaling Hollywood productions in popularity, local films are released weekly and widely followed in Argentina and internationally.<br>
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			CDP boundaries may change from one census to the next to reflect changes in settlement patterns.<br>
			In 1978, the New Jersey legislature approved casino gambling in Atlantic City.<br>
			At the other end of the bowling scale is the "spinner" who bowls at a relatively slow pace and relies entirely on guile to deceive the batsman.<br>
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			Still other flowers use mimicry to attract pollinators.<br>
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			In Great Britain, Prime Minister Winston Churchill created the Special Operations Executive (SOE) in 1940 to assist resistance movements and carry out subversive operations in enemy-held territory across occupied Europe.<br>
			The main art gallery on campus is "Gallery One One One".<br>
			The depression is named after HMS Challenger, whose researchers made the first recordings of its depth on 23 March 1875 at station 225.<br>
			This is called a double stop, a term borrowed from the string instrument vocabulary.<br>
			This practice has effects across many areas, but is seen by some as controversial because it may increase representation for reliably Democratic districts.<br>
			<img alt="" src="http://the.Some.com/Park/best.gif" style="border-width: 0px">
			Eventually, an insurgent mob forced their way into the Weiyang Palace and killed Wang Mang.<br>
			In 1322, the authority of Parliament was for the first time recognised not simply by custom or royal charter, but by an authoritative statute, passed by Parliament itself.<br>
			Tanta is located 94km (59 miles) north of Cairo and 130km (81 miles) southeast of Alexandria.<br>
			La Sierra, ("the highlands") is the high-altitude belt running north-south along the center of the country, its mountainous terrain dominated by the Andes mountain range.<br>
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From lay@gtom.com  Wed Sep 15 15:17:47 2010
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From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Thu Sep 16 23:50:57 2010
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Subject: Re: Data Model, as seen from WebDAV
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On 08.09.2010 17:17, Julian Reschke wrote:
> ...
>> 1.3 Identification: WebDAV: the name of a resource within a collection
>> is a
>> unique identifier. JCR: same (except that for same-name-siblings, the
>> array
>> index may change when siblings are removed/inserted).
>
> -> WebDAV model (where index notation would be used if we want same-name
> siblings)
> ...
>> 2.3 Naming: namespace name + local name (WebDAV, JCR)
>
> This will require some work; expanded names may be a bit heavy-weight;
> more feedback appreciated.
> ...

Related to naming of resources and properties we *also* have to think 
about whether they should share the same space of names.

In WebDAV, properties are not exposed as HTTP resources (*), instead the 
special HTTP method PROPFIND is used. Thus, collisions between 
properties and children of a resource are no concern: a folder could 
have both a child resource "foobar" and a property "foobar".

(*) Yes, that's one of the big issues with the WebDAV approach; but 
maybe we can fix this by exposing WebDAV properties over HTTP GET in the 
future.

In JCR, the same space of names is used for resources and properties, 
thus once the name of a child resource and a property collide, it 
depends on the type of API which one you'll get. This is something we 
need to avoid.

[[ Note: XPath uses a path-like syntax to address both elements and 
attributes, but easily works around this because @ is not valid in 
element names; similarly, it takes advantage of other reserved 
characters such as "(" and ")" to disambiguate between function and 
element names ]]

In David's JSOP slides, we see examples similar to:

var collection1 = {

   "createdby" : "user1",

   "child1" : {

     "createdby" : "user2"

   },

   "child2" : {

     "createdby" : "user3"

   }
};

That has the same problem as JCR; member names and property names can 
collide.

I think we'll need to disambiguate by introducing intermediary objects 
such as "props" and "members", or even model the collection containment 
using a reserved property name.

Best regards, Julian


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  In CalWS

http://www.calconnect.org/pubdocs/CD1011%20CalWS-Rest%20Restful%20Web%20Services%20Protocol%20for%20Calendaring%20V1.0.pdf

we exposed properties and relations using XRD

http://docs.oasis-open.org/xri/xrd/v1.0/xrd-1.0.html

which allows a GET with using ACCEPT to specify the xrd object

There's currently no way to specify which properties are desired.

> In WebDAV, properties are not exposed as HTTP resources (*), instead 
> the special HTTP method PROPFIND is used. Thus, collisions between 
> properties and children of a resource are no concern: a folder could 
> have both a child resource "foobar" and a property "foobar".
>
> (*) Yes, that's one of the big issues with the WebDAV approach; but 
> maybe we can fix this by exposing WebDAV properties over HTTP GET in 
> the future.
>
> In JCR, the same space of names is used for resources and properties, 
> thus once the name of a child resource and a property collide, it 
> depends on the type of API which one you'll get. This is something we 
> need to avoid.
>
> [[ Note: XPath uses a path-like syntax to address both elements and 
> attributes, but easily works around this because @ is not valid in 
> element names; similarly, it takes advantage of other reserved 
> characters such as "(" and ")" to disambiguate between function and 
> element names ]]
>
> In David's JSOP slides, we see examples similar to:
>
> var collection1 = {
>
>   "createdby" : "user1",
>
>   "child1" : {
>
>     "createdby" : "user2"
>
>   },
>
>   "child2" : {
>
>     "createdby" : "user3"
>
>   }
> };
>
> That has the same problem as JCR; member names and property names can 
> collide.
>
> I think we'll need to disambiguate by introducing intermediary objects 
> such as "props" and "members", or even model the collection 
> containment using a reserved property name.
>
> Best regards, Julian
>
>

-- 

Mike Douglass                           douglm@rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer
Communication&  Collaboration Technologies      518 276 6780(voice) 2809
(fax)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 110 8th Street, Troy, NY 12180



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On 20.09.2010 17:54, Mike Douglass wrote:
> In CalWS
>
> http://www.calconnect.org/pubdocs/CD1011%20CalWS-Rest%20Restful%20Web%20Services%20Protocol%20for%20Calendaring%20V1.0.pdf
>
>
> we exposed properties and relations using XRD
>
> http://docs.oasis-open.org/xri/xrd/v1.0/xrd-1.0.html
>
> which allows a GET with using ACCEPT to specify the xrd object
>
> There's currently no way to specify which properties are desired.
> ....

Content negotiation to get the metadata instead of the data?

Not sure this is a good idea...

Best regards, Julian


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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zflukq/message



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From: David Nuescheler <david@day.com>
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Hi Julian,

> Related to naming of resources and properties we *also* have to think abo=
ut
> whether they should share the same space of names.
I would vote for sharing the same space, since it makes it more
compatible and in my experience it really adds complexity having two
namespaces.

> In WebDAV, properties are not exposed as HTTP resources (*), instead the
> special HTTP method PROPFIND is used. Thus, collisions between properties
> and children of a resource are no concern: a folder could have both a chi=
ld
> resource "foobar" and a property "foobar".
> (*) Yes, that's one of the big issues with the WebDAV approach; but maybe=
 we
> can fix this by exposing WebDAV properties over HTTP GET in the future.
> In JCR, the same space of names is used for resources and properties, thu=
s
> once the name of a child resource and a property collide, it depends on t=
he
> type of API which one you'll get. This is something we need to avoid.
Agreed. As a historical comment, I think we ended up in the situation
with JCR since XML also has separate name spaces for elements and
attributes and we offer a round tripping of XML into JCR and back.

> [[ Note: XPath uses a path-like syntax to address both elements and
> attributes, but easily works around this because @ is not valid in elemen=
t
> names; similarly, it takes advantage of other reserved characters such as
> "(" and ")" to disambiguate between function and element names ]]
> In David's JSOP slides, we see examples similar to:
> var collection1 =3D {
> =A0"createdby" : "user1",
> =A0"child1" : {
> =A0 =A0"createdby" : "user2"
> =A0},
> =A0"child2" : {
> =A0 =A0"createdby" : "user3"
> =A0}
> };
> That has the same problem as JCR; member names and property names can
> collide.
I would argue that this is not a problem but a feature. As much as in
a filesystem files and folders share the same namespace it one should
apply the same to properties and resources. More importantly as you
indicate the JSON limitation would suggest a single namespace as well.

> I think we'll need to disambiguate by introducing intermediary objects su=
ch
> as "props" and "members", or even model the collection containment using =
a
> reserved property name.
Since I see simplicity as one of the main reasons to do this effort I
would rather not complicate the simple case where we don't have a
collision just because there might be a chance of an edge. Especially
since I don't think there is any real value in the additional
flexibility that would allow "same named" properties and resources.

regards,
david


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