Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4O1KXRx092078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 18:20:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4O1KXfA092077; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:20:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.72]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4O1KWlp092058 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:20:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lgonze@panix.com) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [166.84.1.2]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDAF59684 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (lgonze@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) with ESMTP id l4O1KVt24013 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:20:31 -1000 (HST) From: Lucas Gonze Reply-To: lucas@gonze.com To: ietf-xml-mime@imc.org Subject: practical question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a practical question related to application/foo+xml media types. I recognize that this is not a programming forum; I am posting here anyway because I think that this group will be keenly aware of the problem and interested in a solution. IE will only allow cross-domain requests for the text/xml or application/xml types. It does not support application/foo+xml. Does anyone know of a workaround which would allow me to avoid having to publish resources with the wrong (application/xml) type? If I do have to publish with the wrong type, does anyone know of a method which would allow me to minimize the damage? This is important because it is a limiting factor for all XML-based formats. Thank you. -Lucas Gonze Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N1PIq8023073 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 May 2007 18:25:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4N1PI7o023072; Tue, 22 May 2007 18:25:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from exprod6og52.obsmtp.com (exprod6og52.obsmtp.com [64.18.1.185]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4N1Ogf2022871 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 18:24:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from LMM@acm.org) Received: from source ([192.150.20.142]) by exprod6ob52.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Tue, 22 May 2007 18:24:37 PDT Received: from inner-relay-3.eur.adobe.com (inner-relay-3b [10.128.4.236]) by outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l4N1OTWs006035; Tue, 22 May 2007 18:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe2.corp.adobe.com (fe2.corp.adobe.com [10.8.192.72]) by inner-relay-3.eur.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N1OP0e004864; Tue, 22 May 2007 18:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from namail1.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.192.62]) by fe2.corp.adobe.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 22 May 2007 18:24:25 -0700 Received: from masinterlap06 ([10.7.240.161]) by namail1.corp.adobe.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 22 May 2007 18:24:17 -0700 From: "Larry Masinter" To: "'Chris Lilley'" , "'Graham Klyne'" Cc: "'Dave Singer'" , "'Martin Duerst'" , "'Anne van Kesteren'" , , , "'Christian Timmerer \(ITEC\)'" , , References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070518194309.08d1ee50@localhost> <1132641919.20070520023450@w3.org> <465162D6.6060301@ninebynine.org> <1501897203.20070521172603@w3.org> <4651C7C1.7000703@ninebynine.org> <18169720.20070522184500@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <18169720.20070522184500@w3.org> Subject: RE: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 18:24:14 -0700 Message-ID: <005401c79cd9$140310d0$3c093270$@org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 thread-index: AceckLRyxCIgDPOXQVizap5+WNWmdwAR/tlA Content-Language: en-us X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2007 01:24:25.0632 (UTC) FILETIME=[19B29A00:01C79CD9] Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I'm really sorry to have opened this rat-hole on multiple mailing lists. I suggest moving the discussion of the hypothetical potential future possible proposals from the W3C XML efficient encoding group --- if you want to continue it at all --- to ietf-xml-mime@imc.org (I think that's the most appropriate) and removing any other cc's. Thanks, Larry Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4MGjnMF081216 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 May 2007 09:45:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4MGjnAQ081215; Tue, 22 May 2007 09:45:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4MGjm8U081209 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 09:45:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chris@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0303E4F08B; Tue, 22 May 2007 12:45:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 18:45:00 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.95.6) Home Reply-To: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <18169720.20070522184500@w3.org> To: Graham Klyne Cc: Dave Singer , Martin Duerst , Anne van Kesteren , Larry Masinter , , , "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , , Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format In-Reply-To: <4651C7C1.7000703@ninebynine.org> References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070518194309.08d1ee50@localhost> <1132641919.20070520023450@w3.org> <465162D6.6060301@ninebynine.org> <1501897203.20070521172603@w3.org> <4651C7C1.7000703@ninebynine.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, May 21, 2007, 6:24:33 PM, Graham wrote: GK> Chris Lilley wrote: >> On Monday, May 21, 2007, 11:13:58 AM, Graham wrote: >> GK> For clarification: this would be the case only when a suitable MIME >> GK> content-transfer-encoding header is applied, n'est pas? >> If its compressed on the fly, yes. If its stored compressed on the server, then Content-Encoding is used. GK> Ah, I hadn't considered Content-encoding here. GK> I note that this header is defined by RFC2616 and registered only for use with GK> HTTP GK> (http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/perm-headers.html), which GK> suggests that it is defined only as part of an HTTP protocol transfer. Yes, I was talking of HTTP here. Clearly if one uses, for example, FTP then that isn't an option. But then, neither is the Internet Media type :) GK> #g GK> (being rather language-lawyer-ish at this point?) -- Chris Lilley mailto:chris@w3.org Interaction Domain Leader Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group W3C Graphics Activity Lead Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4MGj0Sa081018 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 May 2007 09:45:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4MGj0vv081017; Tue, 22 May 2007 09:45:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4MGixr7080995 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 09:44:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chris@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B574F08B; Tue, 22 May 2007 12:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 18:44:10 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.95.6) Home Reply-To: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1746573566.20070522184410@w3.org> To: "Anne van Kesteren" Cc: "Larry Masinter" , "'Dave Singer'" , "'Graham Klyne'" , , "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , , Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format In-Reply-To: References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <179633441.20070520022411@w3.org> <193345254.20070521172433@w3.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, May 21, 2007, 6:37:32 PM, Anne wrote: AvK> On Mon, 21 May 2007 17:24:33 +0200, Chris Lilley wrote: >> AvK (Assuming you meant charset="blah" as >> AvK> opposed to encoding="blah" above given your examples of UTF-8 and >> AvK> UTF-16...) >> No, I meant exactly what I typed. >> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#NT-EncodingDecl AvK> Oh, right. They'll make the XML declaration mandatory? Its already mandatory if you use any encoding other than UTF-8 or UTF-16. AvK> I actually thought AvK> this was about being able to reject it at the HTTP level. -- Chris Lilley mailto:chris@w3.org Interaction Domain Leader Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group W3C Graphics Activity Lead Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4LGbmTN099647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 21 May 2007 09:37:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4LGbm4O099644; Mon, 21 May 2007 09:37:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sam.opera.com (sam.opera.com [213.236.208.81]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4LGbkP3099621 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 21 May 2007 09:37:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from annevk@opera.com) Received: from annevk.hotspot.sfr.fr (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by sam.opera.com (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3sarge3) with ESMTP id l4LGbVfl025816 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 21 May 2007 16:37:31 GMT Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 18:37:32 +0200 To: "Chris Lilley" Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format From: "Anne van Kesteren" Organization: Opera Software Cc: "Larry Masinter" , "'Dave Singer'" , "'Graham Klyne'" , ietf-liaisons@ietf.org, "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , ietf-types@alvestrand.no, ietf-xml-mime@imc.org Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <179633441.20070520022411@w3.org> <193345254.20070521172433@w3.org> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <193345254.20070521172433@w3.org> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.20 (Win32) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.1/3274/Mon May 21 15:19:42 2007 on sam.opera.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-Printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4LGbmP2099639 Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Mon, 21 May 2007 17:24:33 +0200, Chris Lilley wrote: > AvK (Assuming you meant charset="blah" as > AvK> opposed to encoding="blah" above given your examples of UTF-8 and > AvK> UTF-16...) > > No, I meant exactly what I typed. > http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#NT-EncodingDecl Oh, right. They'll make the XML declaration mandatory? I actually thought this was about being able to reject it at the HTTP level. -- Anne van Kesteren Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4LGP5qH095341 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 21 May 2007 09:25:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4LGP5QP095340; Mon, 21 May 2007 09:25:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sb7.songbird.com (sb7.songbird.com [208.184.79.137]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4LGP3P1095319 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 21 May 2007 09:25:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from GK@ninebynine.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (mail.songbird.com [208.184.79.10]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4LGOfUV006757; Mon, 21 May 2007 09:24:42 -0700 Message-ID: <4651C7C1.7000703@ninebynine.org> Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 17:24:33 +0100 From: Graham Klyne User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Lilley CC: Dave Singer , Martin Duerst , Anne van Kesteren , Larry Masinter , ned.freed@mrochek.com, ietf-liaisons@ietf.org, "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , ietf-types@alvestrand.no, ietf-xml-mime@imc.org Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070518194309.08d1ee50@localhost> <1132641919.20070520023450@w3.org> <465162D6.6060301@ninebynine.org> <1501897203.20070521172603@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <1501897203.20070521172603@w3.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Clean X-Songbird-From: gk@ninebynine.org Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Chris Lilley wrote: > On Monday, May 21, 2007, 11:13:58 AM, Graham wrote: > GK> For clarification: this would be the case only when a suitable MIME > GK> content-transfer-encoding header is applied, n'est pas? > > If its compressed on the fly, yes. If its stored compressed on the server, then Content-Encoding is used. Ah, I hadn't considered Content-encoding here. I note that this header is defined by RFC2616 and registered only for use with HTTP (http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/perm-headers.html), which suggests that it is defined only as part of an HTTP protocol transfer. #g (being rather language-lawyer-ish at this point?) -- Graham Klyne For email: http://www.ninebynine.org/#Contact Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4LFQQZ1076565 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 21 May 2007 08:26:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4LFQQ30076564; Mon, 21 May 2007 08:26:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4LFQPmp076557 for ; Mon, 21 May 2007 08:26:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chris@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724E04F041; Mon, 21 May 2007 11:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 17:26:03 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.95.6) Home Reply-To: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1501897203.20070521172603@w3.org> To: Graham Klyne Cc: Dave Singer , Martin Duerst , Anne van Kesteren , Larry Masinter , , , "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , , Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format In-Reply-To: <465162D6.6060301@ninebynine.org> References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070518194309.08d1ee50@localhost> <1132641919.20070520023450@w3.org> <465162D6.6060301@ninebynine.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, May 21, 2007, 11:13:58 AM, Graham wrote: GK> Chris Lilley wrote: >> On Friday, May 18, 2007, 5:27:52 PM, Dave wrote: >> (I'm snipping the parts already covered by Martin) >> DS> Is a ZIP compressed XML file servable under a +xml MIME type? >> DS> "encoding='zipped Shift_JIS'"? >> I suspect you mean gzip, which is a compression method; zip is an archive format (often compressed internally). >> If you started with foo.xml in Shift_JIS, the encoding declaration would say just that. If you then make foo.xml.gz the encoding declaration (when decompressed) says exactly the same thing. The fact that is been gzipped is conveyed out of band, in the http headers: >> Content-Encoding: gzip >> There is scope for confusion, since XML uses 'encoding' for 'character encoding' (although that's a big advance on calling it 'charset'). HTTP uses content-encoding. The two uses of the concept 'encoding' occur at different levels in the stack. >> In consequence, using gzip content-encoding is compatible with +xml media types. GK> For clarification: this would be the case only when a suitable MIME GK> content-transfer-encoding header is applied, n'est pas? If its compressed on the fly, yes. If its stored compressed on the server, then Content-Encoding is used. GK> Otherwise such added GK> encoding/decoding could be applied lower in the stack and not visible at the GK> level of the MIME object. GK> #g -- Chris Lilley mailto:chris@w3.org Interaction Domain Leader Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group W3C Graphics Activity Lead Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4LFOw5U076163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 21 May 2007 08:24:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4LFOwDq076162; Mon, 21 May 2007 08:24:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4LFOujt076156 for ; Mon, 21 May 2007 08:24:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chris@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BED204F056; Mon, 21 May 2007 11:24:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 17:24:33 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.95.6) Home Reply-To: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <193345254.20070521172433@w3.org> To: "Anne van Kesteren" Cc: "Larry Masinter" , "'Dave Singer'" , "'Graham Klyne'" , , "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , , Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format In-Reply-To: References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <179633441.20070520022411@w3.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, May 21, 2007, 10:48:49 AM, Anne wrote: AvK> On Sun, 20 May 2007 02:24:11 +0200, Chris Lilley wrote: >> Swapping your sentences around: yes, the whole idea of +xml is that you >> know you can use a generic XML parser. >> Something that might or might not be xml, therefore should not use +xml. >> An XML parser must understand UTF-8 and UTF-16 and may understand other >> encodings. I gather that the Efficient XML folks will declare a new >> encoding, and parsers which don't know it will not parse it. Same is if >> I said the encoding was >> encoding="i-bet-you-never-heard-of-this-one" AvK> "Efficient XML" seems to be more on the content encoding level than the AvK> character encoding level to me. I would have thought so too, but Liam Quin tells me this is not the current thinking in the EXI WG. AvK (Assuming you meant charset="blah" as AvK> opposed to encoding="blah" above given your examples of UTF-8 and AvK> UTF-16...) No, I meant exactly what I typed. http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#NT-EncodingDecl -- Chris Lilley mailto:chris@w3.org Interaction Domain Leader Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group W3C Graphics Activity Lead Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4LB3vPB099340 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 21 May 2007 04:03:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4LB3vUw099339; Mon, 21 May 2007 04:03:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4LB3r4e099312 for ; Mon, 21 May 2007 04:03:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l4LB3qIB020845 for ; Mon, 21 May 2007 20:03:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 0bd8_f5e6bb02_078a_11dc_85f4_0014221f2a2d; Mon, 21 May 2007 20:03:52 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:41772) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 21 May 2007 20:02:18 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070521192805.04ef2100@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 19:30:23 +0900 To: "Anne van Kesteren" , "Chris Lilley" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format Cc: Larry Masinter , "'Graham Klyne'" , ietf-types@alvestrand.no, ietf-xml-mime@imc.org, ietf-liaisons@ietf.org, "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , "'Dave Singer'" In-Reply-To: References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <179633441.20070520022411@w3.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: At 17:48 07/05/21, Anne van Kesteren wrote: >"Efficient XML" seems to be more on the content encoding level than the >character encoding level to me. (Assuming you meant charset="blah" as >opposed to encoding="blah" above given your examples of UTF-8 and >UTF-16...) That's not only you. It seems so to virtually everybody. That's no surprise, because it IS at that level. The trick is that it can be handled as if it were a character encoding. That's where the language lawyers come in. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4L9EMIL067596 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 21 May 2007 02:14:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4L9EMRh067594; Mon, 21 May 2007 02:14:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sb7.songbird.com (sb7.songbird.com [208.184.79.137]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4L9EKBw067580 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 21 May 2007 02:14:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from GK@ninebynine.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (mail.songbird.com [208.184.79.10]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4L9DwAr005274; Mon, 21 May 2007 02:13:59 -0700 Message-ID: <465162D6.6060301@ninebynine.org> Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 10:13:58 +0100 From: Graham Klyne User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Lilley CC: Dave Singer , Martin Duerst , Anne van Kesteren , Larry Masinter , ned.freed@mrochek.com, ietf-liaisons@ietf.org, "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , ietf-types@alvestrand.no, ietf-xml-mime@imc.org Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070518194309.08d1ee50@localhost> <1132641919.20070520023450@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <1132641919.20070520023450@w3.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Clean X-Songbird-From: gk@ninebynine.org Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Chris Lilley wrote: > On Friday, May 18, 2007, 5:27:52 PM, Dave wrote: > > (I'm snipping the parts already covered by Martin) > > DS> Is a ZIP compressed XML file servable under a +xml MIME type? > DS> "encoding='zipped Shift_JIS'"? > > I suspect you mean gzip, which is a compression method; zip is an archive format (often compressed internally). > > If you started with foo.xml in Shift_JIS, the encoding declaration would say just that. If you then make foo.xml.gz the encoding declaration (when decompressed) says exactly the same thing. The fact that is been gzipped is conveyed out of band, in the http headers: > > Content-Encoding: gzip > > There is scope for confusion, since XML uses 'encoding' for 'character encoding' (although that's a big advance on calling it 'charset'). HTTP uses content-encoding. The two uses of the concept 'encoding' occur at different levels in the stack. > > In consequence, using gzip content-encoding is compatible with +xml media types. For clarification: this would be the case only when a suitable MIME content-transfer-encoding header is applied, n'est pas? Otherwise such added encoding/decoding could be applied lower in the stack and not visible at the level of the MIME object. #g -- Graham Klyne For email: http://www.ninebynine.org/#Contact Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4L8nFA7060432 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 21 May 2007 01:49:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4L8nFe7060431; Mon, 21 May 2007 01:49:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sam.opera.com (sam.opera.com [213.236.208.81]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4L8nDH8060390 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 21 May 2007 01:49:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from annevk@opera.com) Received: from annevk.hotspot.sfr.fr (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by sam.opera.com (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3sarge3) with ESMTP id l4L8mnev011423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 21 May 2007 08:48:50 GMT Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 10:48:49 +0200 To: "Chris Lilley" Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format From: "Anne van Kesteren" Organization: Opera Software Cc: "Larry Masinter" , "'Dave Singer'" , "'Graham Klyne'" , ietf-liaisons@ietf.org, "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , ietf-types@alvestrand.no, ietf-xml-mime@imc.org Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <179633441.20070520022411@w3.org> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <179633441.20070520022411@w3.org> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.20 (Win32) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.1/3273/Mon May 21 05:31:50 2007 on sam.opera.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-Printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4L8nFH7060423 Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Sun, 20 May 2007 02:24:11 +0200, Chris Lilley wrote: > Swapping your sentences around: yes, the whole idea of +xml is that you > know you can use a generic XML parser. > > Something that might or might not be xml, therefore should not use +xml. > > An XML parser must understand UTF-8 and UTF-16 and may understand other > encodings. I gather that the Efficient XML folks will declare a new > encoding, and parsers which don't know it will not parse it. Same is if > I said the encoding was > > encoding="i-bet-you-never-heard-of-this-one" "Efficient XML" seems to be more on the content encoding level than the character encoding level to me. (Assuming you meant charset="blah" as opposed to encoding="blah" above given your examples of UTF-8 and UTF-16...) -- Anne van Kesteren Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4KN2buL042845 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 20 May 2007 16:02:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4KN2bOm042844; Sun, 20 May 2007 16:02:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4KN2UlR042708 for ; Sun, 20 May 2007 16:02:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chris@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C27E14F0AF; Sun, 20 May 2007 19:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 02:34:50 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.95.6) Home Reply-To: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1132641919.20070520023450@w3.org> To: Dave Singer Cc: Martin Duerst , Anne van Kesteren , Larry Masinter , , "'Graham Klyne'" , , "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , , Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format In-Reply-To: References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070518194309.08d1ee50@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, May 18, 2007, 5:27:52 PM, Dave wrote: (I'm snipping the parts already covered by Martin) DS> Is a ZIP compressed XML file servable under a +xml MIME type? DS> "encoding='zipped Shift_JIS'"? I suspect you mean gzip, which is a compression method; zip is an archive format (often compressed internally). If you started with foo.xml in Shift_JIS, the encoding declaration would say just that. If you then make foo.xml.gz the encoding declaration (when decompressed) says exactly the same thing. The fact that is been gzipped is conveyed out of band, in the http headers: Content-Encoding: gzip There is scope for confusion, since XML uses 'encoding' for 'character encoding' (although that's a big advance on calling it 'charset'). HTTP uses content-encoding. The two uses of the concept 'encoding' occur at different levels in the stack. In consequence, using gzip content-encoding is compatible with +xml media types. -- Chris Lilley mailto:chris@w3.org Interaction Domain Leader Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group W3C Graphics Activity Lead Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4KN2bHW042843 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 20 May 2007 16:02:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4KN2bMP042842; Sun, 20 May 2007 16:02:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4KN2U2B042680 for ; Sun, 20 May 2007 16:02:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chris@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1F94F016; Sun, 20 May 2007 19:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 02:24:11 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.95.6) Home Reply-To: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <179633441.20070520022411@w3.org> To: "Anne van Kesteren" Cc: "Larry Masinter" , "'Dave Singer'" , "'Graham Klyne'" , , "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , , Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format In-Reply-To: References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, May 18, 2007, 7:54:32 AM, Anne wrote: AvK> On Fri, 18 May 2007 03:12:09 +0200, Chris Lilley wrote: >> The successor to RFC 3023 needs to indicate that binary XML which is >> presented as a new encoding (in the xml sense) can use +xml, while other >> binary forms cannot. AvK> You wouldn't be able to still parse the retrieved resource in that case AvK> with a generic XML parser. Wasn't that the whole idea of +xml? Swapping your sentences around: yes, the whole idea of +xml is that you know you can use a generic XML parser. Something that might or might not be xml, therefore should not use +xml. An XML parser must understand UTF-8 and UTF-16 and may understand other encodings. I gather that the Efficient XML folks will declare a new encoding, and parsers which don't know it will not parse it. Same is if I said the encoding was encoding="i-bet-you-never-heard-of-this-one" -- Chris Lilley mailto:chris@w3.org Interaction Domain Leader Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group W3C Graphics Activity Lead Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4J7HvOt061944 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 19 May 2007 00:17:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4J7HvkA061938; Sat, 19 May 2007 00:17:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4J7HrCD061908 for ; Sat, 19 May 2007 00:17:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l4J7HoVW006184 for ; Sat, 19 May 2007 16:17:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 7b9e_0d981236_05d9_11dc_8501_0014221fa3c9; Sat, 19 May 2007 16:17:50 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:33160) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sat, 19 May 2007 16:16:17 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070519091059.085b2ec0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 09:59:51 +0900 To: Dave Singer , Anne van Kesteren , Chris Lilley , Larry Masinter , ned.freed@mrochek.com From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format Cc: "'Graham Klyne'" , ietf-liaisons@ietf.org, "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , ietf-types@alvestrand.no, ietf-xml-mime@imc.org In-Reply-To: References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070518194309.08d1ee50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Hello Dave, Some very good questions. At 00:27 07/05/19, Dave Singer wrote: >For a lot of these encodings, of course, the initial string is identical (all the ones which have an 'ascii' core). UTF-16 uses twice the bytes etc. > >But in general, given a MIME type with a "+xml" suffix, an XML reader should be prepared to do what? At the minimum, handle it if it's UTF-8 or UTF-16 (with BOM in the later case). Everything else is optional. >I think I am reading "treat the resource as being, in turn, all the encodings you know of, and if you treat it as an encoding, do you find a confirming "encoding" attribute?" My reading of Appendix F of the XML Spec would be somewhat different. (See http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-guessing-no-ext-info.) First, it's not character encodings, but character encoding families, that you try. This makes this process quite a bit faster. Second, that appendix gives a list of character encoding families. As the appendix is non-normative, it doesn't necessary exclude other character encoding families, but there aren't really any other character encoding families that I know of. >Which means that encoding='EBCDIC' (I made that up, by the way) would work? You didn't have to make that up. EBCDIC as a family is listed in said appendix. The IETF charset registry lists close to 50 EBCDIC variants (see http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets). I guess that for the 'original' EBCDIC, you'd have to write encoding='EBCDIC-US'. >Is a ZIP compressed XML file servable under a +xml MIME type? "encoding='zipped Shift_JIS'"? First, the encoding names allowed in the XML spec don't permit spaces (see http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#NT-EncName), but that's a detail. Second, I'm not familliar with ZIP encoding, but I guess that it's not starting with any of the byte sequences mentioned in Appendix F. The third point is that ZIP files are archives, not compressions of single files. So you would have to restrict this kind of thing to archives containing single files. Fourth, ZIP files don't have any way to identify internal character encodings. And polluting the charset space with zipped_foo, zipped_bar, ... does not look like a good idea. >'Semantic' encodings (e.g. MPEG BiM, which uses the schema to be able to compact the XML) are even greyer; the 'encoding=' is inserted by the BiM decoder, so what does it say then? I think the 'sanity check' has to be not that the resulting 'encoding=' says BiM, but that the BiM decode worked; it makes noi sense for the BiM decoder to produce a text document that says "encoding='BiM'"! Well, actually this is less of a problem. Or put it another way round, it's a problem that turns up with simple plain old character encodings. The easiest way to understand this is to think in terms of Java, because Java has a very clear distinction between byte sequences (Streams) and character sequences (Readers/Writers). The whole encoding stuff is important as long as you are on the byte level. Once the decoding is done, you have external information about the encoding (in Java, you know it's UTF-16), so the encoding pseudo-attribute in the XML declaration becomes irrelevant. That's how the implementations I know handle this, you can hand an XML document from a Reader or a String to a Java XML parser, and the characters in there might read: encoding='shift_jis', but that's just ignored. There is not too much in the spec that defines this explicitly, but it's pretty difficult to do otherwise. >This is all well off-topic for MPEG-21 of course, but by exploring these edge cases we might get some clarity on +xml, which would be a Good Thing. Yes indeed. Thanks a lot. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4IDRECi067225 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 18 May 2007 06:27:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4IDREZH067224; Fri, 18 May 2007 06:27:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4IDRCpP067217 for ; Fri, 18 May 2007 06:27:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from cmsmcq@acm.org) Received: from [IPv6???1] (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E2144EEFD; Fri, 18 May 2007 09:26:58 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20070518194309.08d1ee50@localhost> References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20070518194309.08d1ee50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <755A58D4-90BE-4337-981F-9739B58FB8D6@acm.org> Cc: "C. M. Sperberg-McQueen" , "Anne van Kesteren" , "Chris Lilley" , "Larry Masinter" , ned.freed@mrochek.com, "'Dave Singer'" , "'Graham Klyne'" , ietf-liaisons@ietf.org, "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , ietf-types@alvestrand.no, ietf-xml-mime@imc.org From: "C. M. Sperberg-McQueen" Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 15:27:05 +0200 To: Martin Duerst X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4IDRDpP067219 Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On 18 May 2007, at 13:07 , Martin Duerst wrote: > > At 14:54 07/05/18, Anne van Kesteren wrote: >> ... >> You wouldn't be able to still parse the retrieved resource in that >> case >> with a generic XML parser. Wasn't that the whole idea of +xml? > > Well, yes, but the language lawyers argue as follows: > > Except for UTF-8 and UTF-16, there is absolutely no guarantee > that an XML parser accepts any encoding whatsoever. There is > a lot of XML out there with e.g. > > but no XML parser is required to grok that (although many do). > So you can view binary XML just as an extremely weird and special > character encoding. I personally wish it wouldn't be necessary, > but there are people who claim that it is, for whatever it's worth. First, I agree with Martin's analysis, or rather with his resumé of the language lawyers' view. Second, I wonder: Martin, can you clarify something? When you say "I personally wish it wouldn't be necessary", do you mean "I personally wish that it were proven and accepted that the socalled 'binary XML' format(s) were unnecessary"? or do you mean "I personally wish that the language lawyers would not be such idiots, and that it were generally accepted that this particular view of "character encoding", and this particular use of the XML encoding declaration, is unnecessary, and that binary XML formats should not need to pretend to be "character encodings" in the sense of the XML specification? Michael Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4IB83iJ019990 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 18 May 2007 04:08:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4IB83mi019989; Fri, 18 May 2007 04:08:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4IB82k6019962 for ; Fri, 18 May 2007 04:08:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l4IB7tla020634 for ; Fri, 18 May 2007 20:07:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 51f3_07416dc8_0530_11dc_9798_0014221f2a2d; Fri, 18 May 2007 20:07:54 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:59354) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 18 May 2007 20:06:23 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070518194309.08d1ee50@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 20:07:29 +0900 To: "Anne van Kesteren" , "Chris Lilley" , "Larry Masinter" , ned.freed@mrochek.com From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format Cc: "'Dave Singer'" , "'Graham Klyne'" , ietf-liaisons@ietf.org, "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , ietf-types@alvestrand.no, ietf-xml-mime@imc.org In-Reply-To: References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: At 14:54 07/05/18, Anne van Kesteren wrote: > >On Fri, 18 May 2007 03:12:09 +0200, Chris Lilley wrote: >> The successor to RFC 3023 needs to indicate that binary XML which is >> presented as a new encoding (in the xml sense) can use +xml, while other >> binary forms cannot. > >You wouldn't be able to still parse the retrieved resource in that case >with a generic XML parser. Wasn't that the whole idea of +xml? Well, yes, but the language lawyers argue as follows: Except for UTF-8 and UTF-16, there is absolutely no guarantee that an XML parser accepts any encoding whatsoever. There is a lot of XML out there with e.g. but no XML parser is required to grok that (although many do). So you can view binary XML just as an extremely weird and special character encoding. I personally wish it wouldn't be necessary, but there are people who claim that it is, for whatever it's worth. The successor of RFC 3032 shouldn't mention binary XML explicitly (except by example), but just say that the boundary between what's okay and what's not okay for a +xml prefix is whether the document starts as an XML document as described in appendix F of the XML Rec, and can correctly be parsed after the conversion from that 'character' encoding to XML. What I also would like to see (in particular in my role as one of the IETF charset reviewers) is how to make sure that the labels for binary encodings won't in the future collide with real registered charsets. Probably the best way to do this would be to create some kind of 'provisional' registration, or 'reserving' registration in the charset registry. But that would need some work on a spec, at the moment, probably the best way to do things would be to try and get some kind of comment into the charset registry. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4IASUUK008956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 18 May 2007 03:28:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4IASUAi008955; Fri, 18 May 2007 03:28:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4IASRMe008947 for ; Fri, 18 May 2007 03:28:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id l4IASQNd029493 for ; Fri, 18 May 2007 19:28:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 41b1_83501a46_052a_11dc_9330_0014221fa3c9; Fri, 18 May 2007 19:28:25 +0900 X-AuthUser: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:55149) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 18 May 2007 19:26:54 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20070518152931.08d71da0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 15:31:02 +0900 To: "Larry Masinter" , "'Dave Singer'" , "'Graham Klyne'" From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format Cc: ietf-xml-mime@imc.org, ietf-liaisons@ietf.org, "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , ietf-types@alvestrand.no In-Reply-To: <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I fully agree with Larry's interpretation of RFC 3023 and his comment on this proposal. "is XML" and "contains XML" are two different things, and the "+xml" suffix is only for the "is XML" case. Regards, Martin. At 04:17 07/05/18, Larry Masinter wrote: >I believe the +xml suffix should be reserved for media types whose content >can be >parsed without any preprocessing by a generic XML parser. A reply >from David Singer indicated that the proposed MPEG 21file format is "binary >and contains within it either XML text or BiM-encoded XML (like a ZIP >archive >with an XML document as the main document.)" > >In that case, the use of +xml would (IMO) be inappropriate. > >I thought this was clear form RFC 3023, but perhaps not. > >Larry #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4I5ss6S087949 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 17 May 2007 22:54:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4I5ssa0087947; Thu, 17 May 2007 22:54:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sam.opera.com (sam.opera.com [213.236.208.81]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4I5soMD087895 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 17 May 2007 22:54:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from annevk@opera.com) Received: from annevk.hotspot.sfr.fr ([80.124.175.190]) (authenticated bits=0) by sam.opera.com (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3sarge3) with ESMTP id l4I5sWTp002599 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 18 May 2007 05:54:33 GMT Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 07:54:32 +0200 To: "Chris Lilley" , "Larry Masinter" Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format From: "Anne van Kesteren" Organization: Opera Software Cc: "'Dave Singer'" , "'Graham Klyne'" , ietf-liaisons@ietf.org, "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , ietf-types@alvestrand.no, ietf-xml-mime@imc.org Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.20 (Win32) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.1/3267/Thu May 17 20:40:58 2007 on sam.opera.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Fri, 18 May 2007 03:12:09 +0200, Chris Lilley wrote: > The successor to RFC 3023 needs to indicate that binary XML which is > presented as a new encoding (in the xml sense) can use +xml, while other > binary forms cannot. You wouldn't be able to still parse the retrieved resource in that case with a generic XML parser. Wasn't that the whole idea of +xml? -- Anne van Kesteren Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4I1CvwF056667 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 17 May 2007 18:12:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4I1Cvl2056666; Thu, 17 May 2007 18:12:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4I1CuPY056551 for ; Thu, 17 May 2007 18:12:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chris@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A6E4F110; Thu, 17 May 2007 21:12:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 03:12:09 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.95.6) Home Reply-To: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <892351513.20070518031209@w3.org> To: "Larry Masinter" Cc: "'Dave Singer'" , "'Graham Klyne'" , , "'Christian Timmerer (ITEC)'" , , Subject: Re: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format In-Reply-To: <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 17, 2007, 9:17:50 PM, Larry wrote: LM> I believe the +xml suffix should be reserved for media types whose content LM> can be LM> parsed without any preprocessing by a generic XML parser. A reply LM> from David Singer indicated that the proposed MPEG 21file format is "binary LM> and contains within it either XML text or BiM-encoded XML (like a ZIP LM> archive LM> with an XML document as the main document.)" LM> In that case, the use of +xml would (IMO) be inappropriate. I agree. LM> I thought this was clear form RFC 3023, but perhaps not. The successor to RFC 3023 needs to indicate that binary XML which is presented as a new encoding (in the xml sense) can use +xml, while other binary forms cannot. -- Chris Lilley mailto:chris@w3.org Interaction Domain Leader Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group W3C Graphics Activity Lead Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4HJIFZ9076665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 17 May 2007 12:18:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4HJIFFg076664; Thu, 17 May 2007 12:18:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from exprod6og52.obsmtp.com (exprod6og52.obsmtp.com [64.18.1.185]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4HJI9PV076608 for ; Thu, 17 May 2007 12:18:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from LMM@acm.org) Received: from source ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob52.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 17 May 2007 12:18:08 PDT Received: from inner-relay-3.eur.adobe.com (inner-relay-3.adobe.com [192.150.20.198] (may be forged)) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l4HJH8D1008302; Thu, 17 May 2007 12:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe2.corp.adobe.com (fe2.corp.adobe.com [10.8.192.72]) by inner-relay-3.eur.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4HJHU12027439; Thu, 17 May 2007 12:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from namail1.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.192.62]) by fe2.corp.adobe.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 17 May 2007 12:17:52 -0700 Received: from masinterlap06 ([153.32.47.39]) by namail1.corp.adobe.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 17 May 2007 12:17:52 -0700 From: "Larry Masinter" To: "'Dave Singer'" , "'Graham Klyne'" Cc: , "'Christian Timmerer \(ITEC\)'" , , References: <464814BE.4090208@ninebynine.org> <4649B0BA.4040002@ninebynine.org> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: MPEG asks for MIME review for the MPEG21 file format Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 12:17:50 -0700 Message-ID: <002901c798b8$0f9ab4f0$2ed01ed0$@org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AceXFrSyCZUpn5ZLREKwmvHQxnfksQBoCWmA Content-Language: en-us X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 May 2007 19:17:52.0269 (UTC) FILETIME=[1090FBD0:01C798B8] Sender: owner-ietf-xml-mime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I believe the +xml suffix should be reserved for media types whose content can be parsed without any preprocessing by a generic XML parser. A reply from David Singer indicated that the proposed MPEG 21file format is "binary and contains within it either XML text or BiM-encoded XML (like a ZIP archive with an XML document as the main document.)" In that case, the use of +xml would (IMO) be inappropriate. I thought this was clear form RFC 3023, but perhaps not. Larry